Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: It all boiled back down to trying to erase us
Speaker 2: from public existence. They're saying, oh, you can't be in
Speaker 2: sports because you have an advantage, and we say, okay, well,
Speaker 2: if we can get the care when we want to
Speaker 2: that advantage which really doesn't exist in the first place,
Speaker 2: but just entertaining you, this hypothetical advantage, imagined, imagined advantage
Speaker 2: wouldn't even exists if we can get the healthcare that
Speaker 2: we want before puberty.
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My
Speaker 1: name is Laverne Cox. In twenty thirteen, when Orange, Diet
Speaker 1: and New Black premiered on Netflix, there were no transactors
Speaker 1: with recurring roles on television at the time, and it
Speaker 1: almost feels a cliche, but all the stories I've heard
Speaker 1: from people all over the world about how the characters
Speaker 1: I've played on television have helped them see themselves more,
Speaker 1: helped family members of theirs see them and accept them,
Speaker 1: giving people courage to come out as trans to transition,
Speaker 1: representation matters, and speaking of representation mattering, today's guest is
Speaker 1: an openly transgender person who transitioned as a child, and
Speaker 1: there is so much misinformation and propaganda about children transitioning,
Speaker 1: and I think it's so important for us to hear
Speaker 1: from trans people, and particularly hear from trans young people,
Speaker 1: and hear from people who transitioned as kids. She is
Speaker 1: an historic figure already at the age of twenty five,
Speaker 1: and she is just so incredibly delightful. Our guest for
Speaker 1: today is Nicole Mains. Nicole Mayins is an actress and
Speaker 1: transgender rights activist. Before her acting career, she was the
Speaker 1: anonymous plaintiff in the main Supreme Court case Doe versus
Speaker 1: Regional School Unit twenty six. The ruling in twenty fourteen
Speaker 1: supporting bathroom choices for transgender students was the first ruling
Speaker 1: of its kind by state court. As an actress, Nicole
Speaker 1: is best known for playing TV's first transgender superhero on
Speaker 1: the CW series Supergirl, a rule that will cross over
Speaker 1: onto the next season of The Flash. Mains has been
Speaker 1: nominated for a Glad Media Award and was a Variety
Speaker 1: Magazines Power of Young Hollywood and Power Pride honoree for
Speaker 1: her activism. Mains is an Upstanderd Award honoree given by
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus advocacy group the Human Rights Campaign. On
Speaker 1: top of all this, she is also a graphic novelist
Speaker 1: for DC Comics and has co written a New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller, Becoming Nicole, The Transformation of an American Family.
Speaker 1: Please enjoy My Conversation with Nicole Mains. This episode was
Speaker 1: recorded prior to the Saga after Strike. Hello, Nicole Mains,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling.
Speaker 2: I am feeling so excited. I am so happy to
Speaker 2: finally be talking to you and having this conversation, and
Speaker 2: thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you. We will definitely have one offline too. I
Speaker 1: would love to let folks know how we met for
Speaker 1: the first time. You thought I didn't remember, Becky. There's
Speaker 1: a wonderful HBO documentary called The Translist that was co
Speaker 1: directed by Janet Mock. And when I went to do
Speaker 1: my interview, you were leaving. Yeah, and I believe you
Speaker 1: had blue hair at.
Speaker 2: The time, Thank you very much. It was green.
Speaker 1: It was green. You had green hair at the time,
Speaker 1: and you were leaving, and of course I knew who
Speaker 1: you were because of your case in Maine, and this
Speaker 1: is before you were acting, And I don't know, what
Speaker 1: do you remember about the translist in that moment in
Speaker 1: your lives?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I remember being the sickest I have
Speaker 2: ever been when we were recording that, and so watching
Speaker 2: it when we watched it back at the premiere, I
Speaker 2: was like, wow, I sound like I'm about an inch
Speaker 2: away from death. But I remember being so excited to
Speaker 2: do it. And I think that was the first time
Speaker 2: I met Janet too, but it was I had a
Speaker 2: really great time doing that interview because that was one
Speaker 2: of the first times I remember that I had gotten
Speaker 2: to tell my own story and I had gotten to
Speaker 2: use my own voice in my own words. And I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone's constantly controlling the narrative around us and
Speaker 2: constantly speaking over us and speaking for us and telling
Speaker 2: our stories, and especially as a trans use, it was always.
Speaker 1: How old were you at the time, So this is
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, so.
Speaker 2: You would have been seventeen eighteen.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was one of the first times that
Speaker 2: I had really gotten to say what I wanted to
Speaker 2: say and in my way, and that was really empowering.
Speaker 1: Do you remember what you said in that interview that
Speaker 1: like you really needed to say and wanted to say
Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, we knew you because
Speaker 1: of the case do versus Regional School Unit twenty six.
Speaker 1: What did you feel like you needed to say in
Speaker 1: that documentary more than anything else?
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that had always been on my mind,
Speaker 2: And this was a journey that had started actually long
Speaker 2: before then, but really culminated in the fifth grade when
Speaker 2: everything you know and sha at the vans am I
Speaker 2: allowed to curse?
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Oh, thank god, curse.
Speaker 2: Be Oh, this is going to be a long interview.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about trans rites and can't curse.
Speaker 2: But I remember when all the shit hit the fan,
Speaker 2: and the thought that was just like constantly going through
Speaker 2: my head was like, what is everybody getting so up
Speaker 2: in arms about? I just want to go use the bathroom.
Speaker 2: These are the girls who have been my friends, These
Speaker 2: are the girls who I have had sleepovers with, who
Speaker 2: I have shared a bed with. No one was talking
Speaker 2: to me, No one was talking to my friends. Everybody
Speaker 2: was getting these accounts and opinions from folks I didn't
Speaker 2: have classes with, folks who I didn't know, and doing
Speaker 2: that interview for me, I was able to finally just say, like,
Speaker 2: what is the big FM deal? Like, what is going on?
Speaker 2: I felt like I was in the twilight zone.
Speaker 1: So we should go back a little bit. You are
Speaker 1: obviously trans and you transitioned as a child, and I think,
Speaker 1: if I recall correctly and doing research, was like three
Speaker 1: years old. You told your parents, yeah, four years old,
Speaker 1: and you have an identical twin, ap an identical twin
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and do you want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that process of chatting with your parents
Speaker 1: and the age and you were like, this is not
Speaker 1: this whole assigned male at birth thing isn't really working
Speaker 1: for me?
Speaker 2: I mean I and so I get so fired up
Speaker 2: over anytime people talk about the grooming or talking about
Speaker 2: oh who made you this way? Who trans you? And
Speaker 2: I just I'm like, I feel that I am such
Speaker 2: a like perfect case of like nobody told me, I
Speaker 2: did all of the things that people want us to do.
Speaker 2: Grow up in a perfectly nuclear household, grow up you know,
Speaker 2: in a rural, small town conservative My dad was a Republican.
Speaker 2: You know, I feel like we did all the things
Speaker 2: we were supposed to do, and I still had this
Speaker 2: instinctual feeling of difference, and as soon as I was
Speaker 2: able to tell the societal differences between girls and bold,
Speaker 2: I knew where on that spectrum I was falling, and
Speaker 2: I knew where on that spectrum my brother was falling.
Speaker 2: And he was kind of my control group through all
Speaker 2: of it, because I was like, Okay, I see how
Speaker 2: he's interacting with the world around us. I see And
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, identical twins. Everyone wanted us to
Speaker 2: be clones, which is I've always thought it was fucking weird.
Speaker 1: I know, it's that's a whole other podcast, super weird.
Speaker 2: But I was like, I am not the same as him.
Speaker 2: I am having a different relationship with all of these things.
Speaker 1: And you knew who you were. I think the biggest
Speaker 1: piece is that you knew at three years old who
Speaker 1: you were, and as soon as you could tell someone,
Speaker 1: you did. And I think that is when we look
Speaker 1: at all the sort of propaganda right now around trans kids,
Speaker 1: we're missing that and your process around socially transitioning. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so much misinformation and misconceptions about like trans kids
Speaker 1: and what happens, and I you know, I'm not into
Speaker 1: focusing on medical transition. I think that stuff is private. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but what do you want to say about your social
Speaker 1: transition transition as a child, what that evolution was like?
Speaker 1: And then you know, let's talk about fifth grade when
Speaker 1: the ship was the ban well.
Speaker 2: I think before I say that, I want to say
Speaker 2: the amazing and remarkable thing about children is this innocent bravery.
Speaker 2: I think that they all had. And like you said,
Speaker 2: as soon as I could say something, I did. Because
Speaker 2: hate is learned, bigotry has learned, the two perfectly shaped
Speaker 2: male and female boxes are learned. For me, it was
Speaker 2: such an instinctual, natural thing, and I did not know
Speaker 2: that there was anything wrong I'm using air quotes for
Speaker 2: those listening, anything wrong with what I was feeling. I
Speaker 2: just had felt like, oh, okay, I will bring this
Speaker 2: to my parents because clearly, my all knowing, protective parents
Speaker 2: will know what to do certainly. And it was through
Speaker 2: people's reactions that I realized, oh, is this not a
Speaker 2: normal thing. But when we're talking about other people's reactions,
Speaker 2: other kids were not the ones with the problems. Before
Speaker 2: I started socially transitioning, it was part of my introduction.
Speaker 2: I would say, Hi, my name's Wyatt. I'm a boy
Speaker 2: who wants to be a girl. What's your name? And
Speaker 2: someone would say, Hi, I'm Ryan. I like the color
Speaker 2: red and fire trucks. It was on the same that
Speaker 2: same level of normalcy for me.
Speaker 1: How old were you when you would introduce yourself this way?
Speaker 2: Oh, this looks first grade because I was at a
Speaker 2: new school and nobody knew the situation, and I just
Speaker 2: wanted everyone to know that.
Speaker 1: I was like this, Wow, and the kids, you know,
Speaker 1: it's so funny. Years ago, a dear friend of mine,
Speaker 1: Mila Can I'll say, Mela jam I've known her since
Speaker 1: before she transitioned, and she she toured in written so
Speaker 1: she's done does musicals, and she did musicals, still does,
Speaker 1: and she's a recording artist. And she had done a
Speaker 1: musical before she transitioned. And then after she transitioned, the
Speaker 1: director wanted to bring her back, but now playing a
Speaker 1: woman's role. And Mela had met the director's daughter before
Speaker 1: she transitioned, and so she sees the daughter again and
Speaker 1: the and the director says, oh, this is Mela. She
Speaker 1: used to be you know, blah blah, and she's a
Speaker 1: girl now. And I think her daughter was like, you know,
Speaker 1: six years old, He's like, oh cool, let's play. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was like.
Speaker 2: It's so remarkably uninteresting to kids. Yeah, they so don't care.
Speaker 1: It's so boring unless they're taught to care and taught
Speaker 1: that it's an issue, right, that hatred is learned. I
Speaker 1: just I love telling that story because it was just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's play. It wasn't like.
Speaker 2: I was getting lessons from the other girls how to
Speaker 2: be a girl. I remember being in kindergarten and all
Speaker 2: my friends were girls, and my best friend Cassandra was
Speaker 2: teaching me that girls don't use paper towels to try
Speaker 2: their hands, they like shake them off, which is I
Speaker 2: don't think true.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a girl thing.
Speaker 2: I think Cassandra was a little messy. But I was
Speaker 2: like I was eating it up, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: totally for sure, because I was learning the rules of
Speaker 2: girlhood or you know whatever. Cassandra's rules of girl herd
Speaker 2: were in kindergarten from other girls, and they it was
Speaker 2: never a problem. There was nothing wrong with it. They
Speaker 2: hadn't learned it yet.
Speaker 1: So all through elementary school, everything is okay, so you're
Speaker 1: openly trans and then in fifth grade there was the
Speaker 1: grandparent of one of the students who had an issue.
Speaker 1: Can you tell what happened?
Speaker 2: So I did my social transition really really slow out
Speaker 2: of consideration for the straits, and so like every year
Speaker 2: we would do, Okay, now you're gonna start throwing your
Speaker 2: hair out next year. You can wear pink next year,
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. And by the time
Speaker 2: I was in fifth grade, i'd fully socially transitioned. That's
Speaker 2: when I started going by Nicole.
Speaker 1: Now were you were you doing therapy? Were you doing
Speaker 1: lots of therapy? So I know your parents because you're
Speaker 1: I know your dad, who is a Republican, was like
Speaker 1: really not on board, and then he eventually got on board.
Speaker 1: So you were in therapy right.
Speaker 2: In therapy from second grade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you're just to let people know part of
Speaker 1: your gender affirming care as a child was therapy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pre puberty. Yeah, okay, exactly, that was your gender firming care.
Speaker 2: Therapy and the combination with the therapy. And then as
Speaker 2: you get older, we start to talk about possibility being
Speaker 2: a candidate for medical transition, which not everybody may want
Speaker 2: to do or write or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1: But therapy from very area, yes, wonderful. So this was something.
Speaker 1: So the narrative that all of a sudden, like you know,
Speaker 1: a child decides and then like next week there that's
Speaker 1: not happening. Huh, I know, Ray, that's not happening. And
Speaker 1: then there's girls health insurance and the expense of it anyway,
Speaker 1: So okay, so I just want you to get that eui
Speaker 1: of way. So you're in fifth grade, so taught to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so fifth grade, I have fully transitioned. I'm going
Speaker 2: by Nicole and the big like marker in our elementary
Speaker 2: school to kind of like get us ready for middle
Speaker 2: school was now the bathrooms are multi stall and because
Speaker 2: you know in the grade school you have like the
Speaker 2: just one male when one female bathroom in the classroom,
Speaker 2: and so now I'm using the multi style bathroom with
Speaker 2: all the other girls and everything's fine. And so I
Speaker 2: have another student in my class who his grandfather was
Speaker 2: a member of this special interest Christian right group call
Speaker 2: at the time, I think they've changed their name, that
Speaker 2: was called the Christian Civic League of name, and he
Speaker 2: had caught wind from his grandson that I was trans
Speaker 2: and his grandfather of course lost his ship and the
Speaker 2: group lost their ship. And so they did a couple
Speaker 2: of things. First, they pressured the school and they said,
Speaker 2: we are going to suit you if you keep letting.
Speaker 1: This happens happened, meaning you're using the girls bathroom.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the second thing is they used his grandson
Speaker 2: as a political pawn, this fifth grade boy, as a
Speaker 2: political pawn, and had him follow me into the girl's bathroom.
Speaker 2: And when the teacher went to pull him out of
Speaker 2: the bathroom, and obviously he got in trouble, he said, well,
Speaker 2: I'm just a girl using the girl's bathroom, And that
Speaker 2: was the basis of their claim. They were like, well,
Speaker 2: why can this boy use the girls room and not
Speaker 2: this boy? And that was the whole thing. And this was,
Speaker 2: of course, when I began transitioning, there was still hardly
Speaker 2: any information about trans adults.
Speaker 1: So this is fifth grade, so you're about ten years old.
Speaker 1: So this is two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, two thousand and seven, So there's still not
Speaker 2: a lot of information about trans folks, and especially not
Speaker 2: about trans children. So the school completely buckled. And we
Speaker 2: had had such an amazing relationship with the school moving
Speaker 2: up until this point because, like I said, we were
Speaker 2: very considerate the straits and we made sure that everyone
Speaker 2: was communicating. If people had questions, we could talk about it.
Speaker 2: And we were all doing this in a way where
Speaker 2: everyone was comfortable. And the school completely did a one
Speaker 2: eight and they said, okay, well, if Nicole's in the
Speaker 2: girls bathroom is the problem, no problem, We'll have her
Speaker 2: use the staff bathroom.
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel? Because there's there's I
Speaker 1: mean Gavin Graham's case, there have been many cases of
Speaker 1: trans kids that becomes the solution that they use a
Speaker 1: staff bathroom. How did that make you feel as a
Speaker 1: fifth grader to be put in that position?
Speaker 2: Confused? Confused because I had been doing everything right. I
Speaker 2: was a good kid, and I didn't quite know what
Speaker 2: to make of it. I remember, I remember every moment
Speaker 2: of him going into the bathroom, and then I remember
Speaker 2: being in the guidance Counsel's office with my two friends
Speaker 2: and they had told me that he was calling me
Speaker 2: a fagot behind my back, and he had said that
Speaker 2: my Grandpapy says, we don't have to have any faggots
Speaker 2: in our school.
Speaker 1: So then, oh, oh, I just I mean, hello, my
Speaker 1: own trauma I think is coming up. Oh yeah, so
Speaker 1: we don't have to have any of the words in
Speaker 1: our school, meaning that the goal was to get you
Speaker 1: out of the school.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It seems to be implied, but anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I honestly have never I honestly have never thought
Speaker 2: about their endgame, And honestly, I'm not sure if they
Speaker 2: had one. I think that it was a shortsighted, hateful,
Speaker 2: little stint to feel like they had some power over somebody,
Speaker 2: which is what it all is at the end of
Speaker 2: the day. It's always about making sure that you are
Speaker 2: above somebody else, and there's always somebody underneath you whose
Speaker 2: neck you can step on, and displaying that power. So
Speaker 2: I don't know what they wanted. I don't care what
Speaker 2: they wanted because that was the beginning of my life
Speaker 2: coming apart, and everything that my family had done started
Speaker 2: coming apart.
Speaker 1: Did it come apart? What happened?
Speaker 2: So people pick up on the examples that by their leaders,
Speaker 2: and when you start treating a student in a way,
Speaker 2: or treating anybody in a way that suggests, hey, they
Speaker 2: are not fit to be kept in the same public
Speaker 2: spaces as you. They have to be kept in a
Speaker 2: separate bathroom, they have to be kept away from everybody else.
Speaker 2: That is a very powerful message that people pick up on.
Speaker 2: We started experiencing harassment from folks we had never had
Speaker 2: a problem with.
Speaker 1: So up until this point, everything is going fine, Everything
Speaker 1: is going great, and.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there are always baffles. But it
Speaker 2: was it was never worse than you know, a girl
Speaker 2: on the bus used to call me it on the
Speaker 2: way home, and that was traumatizing and fun but I
Speaker 2: called her a dumb mouse in fourth grade. Muhare really good.
Speaker 2: But that was the just childish bullying was the worst
Speaker 2: of it. And now this had propelled it into this
Speaker 2: public space where now there are news bands outside of school,
Speaker 2: and now everybody's talking about it, and now it's become
Speaker 2: this topic of conversation in the community, and it gets
Speaker 2: to the point where we can't go to see the
Speaker 2: movies without the whispers and the stairs and the pointing.
Speaker 1: And so you're this is Maine. So I'm assuming it's
Speaker 1: not a big community.
Speaker 2: No, not at all, Oh god, no, No, it's more
Speaker 2: treatent people. It's very very small, very tight knit, and
Speaker 2: it just sent a shockwave through the community. And my
Speaker 2: parents did their best to shield my brother and I
Speaker 2: from that because their goal was always to have us
Speaker 2: have as normal as child this is possible. And when
Speaker 2: this happened, it just blew the door off its hinges.
Speaker 2: And I remember we went to some play were I
Speaker 2: think it was the Sound of Music. We went to
Speaker 2: watch a performance at the high school that did not
Speaker 2: have gender neutral bathrooms, and so an intermission, I'm going
Speaker 2: into the girl's bathroom and classmates of mine were coming
Speaker 2: out of it, classmates who I never had a problem with,
Speaker 2: who I had been considering friends, and they said, no,
Speaker 2: you can't go in there. That's not for you. You're not
Speaker 2: supposed to be in there, and I was like, what
Speaker 2: the hell? So I also called her a dumbasus and
Speaker 2: I want it anyway.
Speaker 1: So this so I think part of what I'm hearing
Speaker 1: is that this stigma and this is deep. This is
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing this. What had been
Speaker 1: smooth sailing up until fifth grade, when a big stink
Speaker 1: was made about it, all of a sudden, the community
Speaker 1: followed suit, and then what was relatively normal for most
Speaker 1: of the other kids, you being the girl that you are,
Speaker 1: became something that was stigmatized, and then you were ostracized.
Speaker 1: And so I think what people should understand from your story,
Speaker 1: and what's happening with all these anti trans bills targeting
Speaker 1: children is that it is fostering an environment where we're
Speaker 1: going to be even more stigmatized, normal hate, and then
Speaker 1: like everybody policing you and trying to make you feel other.
Speaker 2: First of all, it's creating mountains Anamol hills, as my
Speaker 2: third grade teacher would always say, and it's exactly what
Speaker 2: you said, fostering an environment of hatreots, and it's normalizing hate,
Speaker 2: which is something that I don't think anyone in America
Speaker 2: is a stranger to, especially after our last commander in chief.
Speaker 2: And that's what that was such a difficult time for me,
Speaker 2: the twenty sixteen election, because it was so much of
Speaker 2: what I had grown up with, and it was and
Speaker 2: I saw it happening all over again. It was I
Speaker 2: see how people follow the leader, and it's so important
Speaker 2: that our leaders and our policymakers and our legislators set
Speaker 2: good examples and lead with compassion and empathy. And seeing
Speaker 2: what they're doing now is so first of all disgraceful.
Speaker 2: Second of all, just I don't understand how we have
Speaker 2: not set a higher bar for our country. But that's
Speaker 2: another conversation.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we're just in some major backlash against
Speaker 1: transvisibility right now, we're being scapegoaded. This is a good
Speaker 1: time to take a little break.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk about the lawsuit that
Speaker 1: you and your family filed against the school and eventually won.
Speaker 1: And it's important to note that this is the first
Speaker 1: time that court decided that it was a violation of
Speaker 1: human rights law to ban a trans person from the
Speaker 1: bathroom that they felt like they could use. And this
Speaker 1: happened in Maine, and this case was decided in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: So did you start the lawsuit in two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven and then it finally because you were this is year.
Speaker 2: This started in two thousand eight or two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2: I think we filed the suit after sixth grade because
Speaker 2: we continued trying to work with the school. And when
Speaker 2: I went into middle school, they gave me a bodyguard
Speaker 2: and they called it the Eyes On program, And what
Speaker 2: that was was a grown adult following me around from
Speaker 2: class to class, basically there to make sure that I
Speaker 2: used the staff bathroom, to make sure that I didn't
Speaker 2: go in the girls bathroom. And they said it was
Speaker 2: for my safety, and of course I knew that that
Speaker 2: was a crop as ship. But if I went up
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom, the teacher would stop me
Speaker 2: at the door and tell me to wait for whoever
Speaker 2: was following me that day, because it was always different.
Speaker 1: Can't pause, Nicole, You're talking about this so matter of factly.
Speaker 1: I have to, and I guess this is just your life.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of horrified. I'm listening and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what the fuck? Like you have a bodyguard for your
Speaker 1: own protection. It just makes me think about, like, you know,
Speaker 1: the way they house trans people in prison in solitary
Speaker 1: confinement for our own protection.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, always for our own protection allegedly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had an an adult follow you around
Speaker 1: from class to class allegedly for your own protection. But
Speaker 1: I will ultimately to make sure that you didn't use
Speaker 1: the girl's bathroom in middle school? Was this all through?
Speaker 1: Was your middle school three years? Like six seven eighth
Speaker 1: grade or three years?
Speaker 2: This was only through sixth grade because after we left, Okay,
Speaker 2: we only did that one year. And the straw that
Speaker 2: broke the camel's back for that was I was going
Speaker 2: to go on this outing trip with all of my friends.
Speaker 2: We were all in this outing club and we were
Speaker 2: going to go white water rafting and there was an
Speaker 2: overnight camping trip and I was so excited. All of
Speaker 2: my friends were going, and they said, of course Nicole
Speaker 2: can come. She's a member of the club. She cannot
Speaker 2: stay in a tent with the girls, though, she has
Speaker 2: to stay in a tent by herself or with her parents.
Speaker 2: And again, these are all the girls that I've had
Speaker 2: sleepovers with. And so we said, okay, well, what if
Speaker 2: we get a signed permission slips from I mean, my
Speaker 2: parents were at that school every day trying to come
Speaker 2: up with solutions. What if we got to signed permission
Speaker 2: slip from all of the parents of all of the
Speaker 2: kids going, the boys and the girls saying that they're
Speaker 2: okay with it. Oh no, no, no, no, that can't work.
Speaker 2: That can never work. Ohuse, that's not possible. They would
Speaker 2: call ahead anywhere that we went on a field trip
Speaker 2: and say, hey, we have this student who looks like
Speaker 2: a girl. Don't let her use the girls bathroom at
Speaker 2: your facilities. And at that point we just realized we're
Speaker 2: never going to get back to where we were. This
Speaker 2: is never going to work again. So my mom packed
Speaker 2: us up, and my brother and my mom and I
Speaker 2: moved two hours south from Orno to Portland two and
Speaker 2: a half actually, and in Maine, important Maine, and my
Speaker 2: dad stayed behind so he could keep his job at
Speaker 2: the university. And we only saw our dad on weekends
Speaker 2: from then through the rest of high school. So we
Speaker 2: never lived with our dad again.
Speaker 1: And so you started over at a new school, and
Speaker 1: then where did you go? Stealth at the new school.
Speaker 2: Went still at the new school, and that's when we
Speaker 2: filed the lawsuit. And the important thing about the lawsuit
Speaker 2: and the reason why we were ruled in favor of
Speaker 2: one because it's obviously human rights violation. But two this
Speaker 2: happened in two thousand and seven in Maine. As of
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, the main Human Rights Act lifts
Speaker 2: gender identity as well as sexual orientation as a protective class. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the lesson there being half the school known the policy,
Speaker 2: known the law know that they were well within their
Speaker 2: legal right as well as moral right to be doing
Speaker 2: what they were doing, that group would't have had a
Speaker 2: single leg to stand on, and they could, yeah, go ahead,
Speaker 2: fiow your lawsuit. We're doing what the law requires.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the reality right now is that
Speaker 1: there is even more state laws that include gender identity
Speaker 1: and sexual orientation in their human rights law, and all
Speaker 1: of these bands against gender firm and care are a
Speaker 1: violation of that, but they don't care. They don't care,
Speaker 1: and the legislatture is so the judiciary system, I should say,
Speaker 1: so conservative that when these things are challenged in court,
Speaker 1: they think that they can win, and they probably will
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, so you won your case. How did
Speaker 1: it feel when you finally got the decision? Maybe to
Speaker 1: climatic because it takes so many years. I remember talking
Speaker 1: to Gavin Graham about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, after that point, after.
Speaker 1: All these years, you win the case, It's ruled in
Speaker 1: your favor. How did that make you feel? I remember
Speaker 1: being historic. I remember reading about it, thinking it was
Speaker 1: interesting that you're from Maine and your last name is
Speaker 1: Maine's and just being like really excited. And I remember
Speaker 1: reading a story where you met the governor of Maine
Speaker 1: or something. Is that right?
Speaker 2: I met since I met Senator So, I met Senator
Speaker 2: Olympia Snow when she was still in office, and I
Speaker 2: met Susan Collins.
Speaker 3: Be foolshit, I'm just I'm just saying she talks the
Speaker 3: big games.
Speaker 2: When I met with her, and now I'm seeing all
Speaker 2: the stuff she's doing, and I'm like, hmm, interesting.
Speaker 1: She always talks a big game anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, su then you yeah, so I remember, I remember
Speaker 2: when that came down, that was it was so major,
Speaker 2: and I remember it being major, but very much like
Speaker 2: what Gavin said, it was a little antiqlimactic for me
Speaker 2: because at that point I'm a junior in high school
Speaker 2: and my old middle school the superintendent had left because
Speaker 2: he thought he had another job lined up in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: He didn't, and he quit prematurely, and then the principal
Speaker 2: was fired after changing students' test scores on standardized state tests,
Speaker 2: so both of them were not at the school anymore.
Speaker 2: So it felt a little like, I'm glad, but I
Speaker 2: really wanted to stick it to them. So that was
Speaker 2: for me. I mean, that's just moving petty, but deservingly so.
Speaker 2: But I remember it being fantastic. But the hard part
Speaker 2: about that is similarly to what you were saying about
Speaker 2: the judiciary committees. Even though it's on the books in
Speaker 2: Maine and even though now we set this legal precedent,
Speaker 2: I still hear from kids in Maine and especially more
Speaker 2: rural parts of the state. We're saying, why is this happening? Why?
Speaker 2: And they're doing the same thing they did to me,
Speaker 2: even though being Human Rights Act and my case in
Speaker 2: the State Supreme Court, enforcement is a whole other beast. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and having it on the books is one thing, and
Speaker 2: making sure that people are following the rules, and it
Speaker 2: feels like putting out fires and playing a game of black.
Speaker 1: Homle we've had. I like to remind people that we've
Speaker 1: had laws against racist treatment in this country for a
Speaker 1: very long time, and that doesn't mean that racism went away.
Speaker 1: So there is the project of changing hearts and minds
Speaker 1: that needs to go along with legislative and judicial change.
Speaker 1: So you graduate from high school, you've done this historic thing,
Speaker 1: and then somehow you end up acting. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: something that you didn't plan on doing. I reading somewhere,
Speaker 1: and you did a guest spot on what was the
Speaker 1: show Royal Pains? Royal Pains, and then Supergirl comes along,
Speaker 1: which is so iconic, and I was already watching Supergirl
Speaker 1: and I think you came on the second season, fourth,
Speaker 1: fourth season, oh wow, or that far into it had
Speaker 1: you taken acting classes. I always wonder like, did you study?
Speaker 1: How did acting like come to you?
Speaker 2: So for me, acting I think naturally came from my
Speaker 2: love of playing dress up. M hm. And for me,
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the same for you,
Speaker 2: but that was my space where I was able to
Speaker 2: portray characters I related to or saw myself in. I
Speaker 2: was able to wear clothes that I identified with, And
Speaker 2: for my parents that.
Speaker 3: Was like, ohay, he can do that. That's he's just
Speaker 3: playing pretend. It's just not indicative of anything larger and
Speaker 3: more telling of what is to come. But so for me,
Speaker 3: acting just stemtons I think naturally from that. I just
Speaker 3: love playing dress up. I love playing in different sandbox.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love.
Speaker 2: I walk onto a set in an office and I'm like, sorry,
Speaker 2: where are the dragons? I'm sorry, what do you mean?
Speaker 2: No one who's superpowers? What are we doing?
Speaker 1: Well? I mean, yeah, I mean Dreamer or Nia? Nia?
Speaker 1: Is that Nia? Now? Dreamer the first trans superhero on television?
Speaker 1: More history. You're a historic young lady. For being twenty
Speaker 1: six years old. You made a lot of history already.
Speaker 2: I just want to play dress up.
Speaker 1: I love it. So what was what was the audition process,
Speaker 1: like I understand that there were several callbacks talk to
Speaker 1: talk to me about like, first of all, how did
Speaker 1: you get into acting? Like how did Royal Pains happen?
Speaker 2: So much luck? Back to back to back to back.
Speaker 2: So I loved acting. I wanted to act. I didn't
Speaker 2: think it was possible being from Maine. It's you know,
Speaker 2: I'm on the complete opposite side of the country from
Speaker 2: where I need to be. I did school theater and
Speaker 2: that was about it. I did some local theater, not
Speaker 2: really not that much. I wasn't taking acting classes. I
Speaker 2: really didn't know what I was doing. And with Royal
Speaker 2: Pains came along. It was one of those situations where
Speaker 2: you know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody in casting,
Speaker 2: and it somehow worked its way up design that they
Speaker 2: were looking for a trans performer with dance experience, and
Speaker 2: I had been doing dance for four years, and so
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, you should audition. So I went up
Speaker 2: to the college with my dad and we filmed my
Speaker 2: audition with I filmed opposite the Star Quarterback, which I
Speaker 2: was like, oooh and a good self tape moment.
Speaker 1: I think Royal Pain shot in New York, right in Brooklyn.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 2: And so then I had two callbacks with producers and
Speaker 2: got that and had an amazing time. And I remember
Speaker 2: being on set and just just being so blown away
Speaker 2: by that experience. And we had simultaneously been in talks
Speaker 2: to turn our story into something. We sold our life
Speaker 2: rights and we were working with producers and they knew
Speaker 2: my now agents got it, and they were saying that
Speaker 2: we're looking for trans talent to represent, and he says, well,
Speaker 2: I just got back from Maine. I just spoke to
Speaker 2: this girl who did an episode of Royal Paints. He
Speaker 2: gotten meter. Next, I think I was in Los Angeles
Speaker 2: for the Glad Awards in twenty sixteen and I met
Speaker 2: with my agents there in the hotel. Loved them and
Speaker 2: they were like, what do you want to do and
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I really like Arrow. And then nothing
Speaker 2: for three years. We had a bunch of auditions that
Speaker 2: I was so green, and I then got cast as
Speaker 2: the lead in this indie horror movie called Bits, where
Speaker 2: I was going to play a trans girl who gets
Speaker 2: turned into a vampire and falls in with a group
Speaker 2: of intersectional feminist vampires who's stock Los Angeles. So I
Speaker 2: was like, dope, And so I went and did that
Speaker 2: in May of twenty eighteen and I had one day
Speaker 2: off and they said, hey, can Cole send in another
Speaker 2: silk tape for super Girl? And they said, oh, well,
Speaker 2: no need, She's in Los Angeles, she can go in.
Speaker 2: So I went in and I met with Sarah Scheck.
Speaker 1: Would make such a difference when you're in the room anyway,
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: It does. I went in and I met with Jessica
Speaker 2: and Robert and Sarah, and the next day they asked
Speaker 2: me to be a Superhero.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And I remember your
Speaker 1: debut on the show and the character coming out as
Speaker 1: trans I love the little the romantic tension between you
Speaker 1: and Brainy that eventually turned into her an actual, you know,
Speaker 1: real romance. That was so beautiful thing on TV. And
Speaker 1: I was just as as an actress who you know,
Speaker 1: four time immunuitated actress Liver and Cox, who's very serious
Speaker 1: about the work, I was like, she's talented, she can act.
Speaker 1: You were so natural and you were so you fit
Speaker 1: in the world so wonderfully, and your emotional flexibility was
Speaker 1: just there, and it just I was just it was
Speaker 1: just I'm going.
Speaker 2: To hold on to that. Thank you.
Speaker 1: No, it was just really exciting. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's she's she's actually good, you know. Like for me,
Speaker 1: it's about the talent. I love. I love talent. I
Speaker 1: love when people are good at what they do. And
Speaker 1: you're just such a natural. And now that you're in
Speaker 1: this world, you've gotten to play Dreamer on the Flash
Speaker 1: and in different iterations of this sort of DC universe,
Speaker 1: which is so great. Have you done a comic con yet?
Speaker 2: I did a couple of comic cons with the show,
Speaker 2: the last one being in twenty nineteen, and then we
Speaker 2: didn't get we didn't get to do one for our
Speaker 2: final season because pandemic. Yeah, but yeah, I love comic cons.
Speaker 2: It was so much fun getting to meet people. And
Speaker 2: that's been the craziest thing, getting to see folks reaction
Speaker 2: to Dreamer, not just trans folks, but sif people who
Speaker 2: are saying, this is my favorite character. I love Dreamer,
Speaker 2: I love mea so much. Oh my gosh. Seeing parents
Speaker 2: who love Dreamer, kids who love Dreamer, seeing folks who
Speaker 2: Dreamer made them feel comfortable to come out and to transition.
Speaker 2: The impact of this character is so massive, and it's
Speaker 2: so like that is why representation matters. It changes the
Speaker 2: world and it changes people's lives. And seeing people's reaction
Speaker 2: to Dreamer, seeing people's reaction to me, especially when I
Speaker 2: was first announced at Comic Con in twenty eighteen, they
Speaker 2: announced me at the Supergirl panel and I came out
Speaker 2: on the stage and there was like this the people
Speaker 2: who were cheering and clapping and excited for this new
Speaker 2: trans person.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And that was the moment for me, especially after twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: after everything, with the election, after everything, I was like,
Speaker 2: there is hope. People are good. People want to see
Speaker 2: this progress, and people want to see this change, and
Speaker 2: people want to see everybody's stories and hear different experiences,
Speaker 2: and that was really amazing.
Speaker 1: I've often said, you know, it's the best of times
Speaker 1: since the worst of times, because we have like unprecedented
Speaker 1: representation of trans folks in media now, and obviously what
Speaker 1: we're seeing in state legislators, it's a backlash against that.
Speaker 1: But there's so much love and support that that I've gotten,
Speaker 1: that you clearly get that is so inspiring and gives
Speaker 1: me such a sense of hope about the world and
Speaker 1: that folks can see your humanity through your characters and
Speaker 1: through your interviews. Your Ellen interview is so beautiful, and
Speaker 1: I think that it's just a reminder that, like the
Speaker 1: there's so many people out there with so much love
Speaker 1: in their hearts who are open and aren't down with this,
Speaker 1: you know, this attack that's going on. I think that's
Speaker 1: a minority of folks who have this agenda that's really
Speaker 1: not about us. And so we have to stay in
Speaker 1: the love and stay in the commitment to being who
Speaker 1: we are. And even though I have to work really
Speaker 1: hard not to get depressed when I see everything going
Speaker 1: on legislatively, because for me, I'm in a place where
Speaker 1: every like professionally, things wonderful. I'm in love. You seem
Speaker 1: to be in a man on your Instagram, Nate, Nate,
Speaker 1: we love on your Instagram.
Speaker 2: Honey, TikTok, thank you TikTok.
Speaker 1: You met on TikTok.
Speaker 2: Yes, because he came up on my for you page
Speaker 2: as like he is definitely for you girls.
Speaker 1: Like the way he came up on your page. And
Speaker 1: then what happened.
Speaker 2: He came up on my for you page like with
Speaker 2: a lightsaber shirtless, and I said, m you'll do yeah,
Speaker 2: So I started leaving, like thirsty comments in his video
Speaker 2: and thank goodness for the blue check because that put
Speaker 2: my comments right to the top. And so he saw
Speaker 2: them and he reached out to me on Instagram and said, hey,
Speaker 2: you seem cool. We should be friends. And he tells
Speaker 2: the story so cute because he's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I never thought you know, I just wanted to be
Speaker 2: your friend. I never had any all your motives and
Speaker 2: I was like, I was being a whore. But I'm
Speaker 2: glad your motive.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back. We
Speaker 1: are back. So my current boyfriend, my last three boyfriends
Speaker 1: had never dated a trans woman. For me, had he
Speaker 1: thought about dating a trans woman? Dated a trans woman?
Speaker 1: Did he know that you were trans when you messaged him? Like?
Speaker 1: What of that? Because a lot of trans folks out
Speaker 1: there struggle with dating. And I do think I talked
Speaker 1: to my friends who aren't famous who are trans. I
Speaker 1: think we're legitimized as like being on TV in a
Speaker 1: way that makes men a little bit more open dating.
Speaker 1: At least that's my experience.
Speaker 2: I think feels like a spoonful of sugar for me,
Speaker 2: a little bit like, oh she's trans, but she's on TV, Like,
Speaker 2: that's so awful to say, So.
Speaker 1: I think it's different for us. So what did he
Speaker 1: no initially that you were trans? Okay? How did he just?
Speaker 1: Did he google? What? Both?
Speaker 2: So I don't know if he initially knew. I think
Speaker 2: I think he found out naturally just by looking at
Speaker 2: me and talking and reading about me. But he's so
Speaker 2: wonderful and oh god, I hope you get to meet
Speaker 2: him some day because he is so just sort of
Speaker 2: like how how we talk about kids, like when they're
Speaker 2: like who cares?
Speaker 1: So it was was there discussion like what was like
Speaker 1: the oh you're trans?
Speaker 2: There wasn't this big talk. It was for him, he
Speaker 2: was It was only ever really just like yeah, you're
Speaker 2: a woman. So and he just it's not a big
Speaker 2: deal to him. And he's now become such an ally
Speaker 2: and such an advocate and he does these amazing videos
Speaker 2: on TikTok where you know, he don't get hate comments
Speaker 2: for just being with the transoman my.
Speaker 1: Ex so I was public with like experience that, and
Speaker 1: he was very he was strong and steff In my
Speaker 1: current boyfriend, I'm just I'm keeping him off social media. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a part of me that really wants to protect
Speaker 1: my man. Yeah, yeah, does he handle the hate comments
Speaker 1: because like people would comment, oh, you're gay, you know,
Speaker 1: and they would just sort of assume that, and so
Speaker 1: how does he deal with that?
Speaker 2: Well, he's worth a weird position. He doesn't really care
Speaker 2: about people saying like, oh, you're gay. People thought he
Speaker 2: was gay anyway, because he's you know, for the same
Speaker 2: reason he was on my for you page. He's on
Speaker 2: a lot of gay men's for you page.
Speaker 1: Well, he does fitness, like right, he's like a fitness do.
Speaker 2: He does fitness, he does cosplay, he does these really
Speaker 2: sexy like hot dude first traps.
Speaker 1: So of course gay man are.
Speaker 2: He's very famous with the gays. We were in Toronto
Speaker 2: recently and we went to Woodies, a drag bar, and
Speaker 2: this girl saw him and we were also with our
Speaker 2: friend Shane, and they're both very big on TikTok and
Speaker 2: this girl saw them screaming, screaming like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I have to get a picture with you. And I
Speaker 2: kind of get like shoved out of the way, and
Speaker 2: I was like, my boyfriend's more gay famous than I am.
Speaker 2: My stray boyfriend's margay famous than I am. What the fuck?
Speaker 4: But no, so he doesn't really care, and when he
Speaker 4: does respond, he responds with like these beautifully articulated videos
Speaker 4: where he's just like.
Speaker 2: Why is this a problem? I love her, she loves me.
Speaker 2: I see her and I see a woman. I am
Speaker 2: not bothered by anything else. And I've been very fortunate
Speaker 2: that my relationships have been that way. My partner before Nate,
Speaker 2: when I was in college, I remember he was fine
Speaker 2: with it, didn't have a problem. This was scary, though.
Speaker 2: I was going to meet his parents for the first time.
Speaker 1: Oh that's so stressful, girl.
Speaker 2: It gets worse.
Speaker 1: I've met many parents and they end up loving me,
Speaker 1: and I'm great with parents, but it's so stressful.
Speaker 2: I just met Nate's mom and I was like, moms
Speaker 2: love me. I'm not worried. If you're listening, hey, Cheryl,
Speaker 2: how you doing. So I was going to meet the
Speaker 2: boy's parents and we are halfway there on the highway
Speaker 2: and he looks over at me and he says, I
Speaker 2: have to tell you something. My parents are Trump supporters,
Speaker 2: and they don't know your.
Speaker 1: Trans on the way to meet them.
Speaker 2: On the way to meet them, cut to me doing
Speaker 2: a very real costs versus risk benefit analysis in my head,
Speaker 2: Am I more likely to die going to this house
Speaker 2: or if I tuck and roll going seventy on the highway.
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean you don't have to necessarily disclose that
Speaker 1: you're trans.
Speaker 2: Oh we did not. Oh, we did not. This was
Speaker 2: just after the twenty sixteen election. They left Fox News
Speaker 2: on in the background while we ate dinner, just talking
Speaker 2: about how Trump had removed the federal protections for trans
Speaker 2: people and talking about how great that was on the TV.
Speaker 2: As I'm sitting there next to my boyfriend and his
Speaker 2: parents and I'm like, I'm gonna die in this fucking house.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna fucking die in the South.
Speaker 1: It's like the transversion of get Out, which is the
Speaker 1: transversion of get out. Oh.
Speaker 2: They ended up loving this.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Wow did they find out that you disclosed?
Speaker 2: And I had conversations with his mom. Her big hang
Speaker 2: up was sports, and she was very but what about fairness?
Speaker 2: What about this? What about that one? And I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: first of all, pay women athletes the same, then come
Speaker 2: to me and talk about fairness. Second, I said, listen,
Speaker 2: I did sports in school. And let me tell you,
Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating when I said I was the absolute
Speaker 2: worst on the team, consistent bench warmer. It was not
Speaker 2: a matter of having an advantage against anybody else. It
Speaker 2: was a matter of trying to get me any kind
Speaker 2: of advantage because this poor girl was suffering so much.
Speaker 1: There's so many misconceptions about trans folks, and you know,
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with Chase Stangio from acl Ung's
Speaker 1: on last season of the podcast, and we talked about
Speaker 1: how I find it really interesting that as they're trying
Speaker 1: to ban gender firming care for kids, they also want
Speaker 1: to ban us from sports. And like the advantage if
Speaker 1: there is an advantage that trans people have, and there's
Speaker 1: always advantages in sports, it happens with puberty. So for
Speaker 1: those people who have access and want to do puberty blockers,
Speaker 1: then all the sort of physical advantages don't happen. And
Speaker 1: then I'm looking at you and you're so gorgeous, and like,
Speaker 1: so much of transition as an adult is like trying
Speaker 1: to reverse what happens in puberty, the masculinizing that happens
Speaker 1: in puberty. And if you can spare a trans child that,
Speaker 1: if they want to, if the parents, if it's recommended
Speaker 1: with your doctor, whatever, I think that's a wonderful thing. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: I think it's not anybody's business but the parents, the child,
Speaker 1: and the doctor. Okay, thank you very I'm so jealous
Speaker 1: of people who got to like not I'm puberty was
Speaker 1: so traumatizing for me. I'm fifty years old, so this
Speaker 1: was years ago. And if I had known and there
Speaker 1: was access to go through puberty as a girl, like,
Speaker 1: what a difference that would have made in my life.
Speaker 2: You know, it all boils back down to trying to
Speaker 2: erase us from public existence. They're saying, oh, you can't
Speaker 2: be in sports because you have an advantage, and we say, okay, well,
Speaker 2: if we can get the care when we want to,
Speaker 2: that advantage which really doesn't exist in the first place,
Speaker 2: but just entertaining you, this hypothetical advantage, imagine this imagined
Speaker 2: advantage one even exists, if we can get the healthcare
Speaker 2: that we want before puberty. Oh, well, you can't do
Speaker 2: that because you're clearly being groomed and you have to
Speaker 2: wait until you're an adult. Okay, well, then can I
Speaker 2: at least use the girl's bathroom? No, you can't, because
Speaker 2: you're a man. You went through mail puberty, you were
Speaker 2: raised as a man, Okay, well, can I transition younger?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. So there's no way for trans people to
Speaker 2: exist in their world. It only boils down to they
Speaker 2: just don't want us to exist, and that ship has
Speaker 2: fucking sailed.
Speaker 1: But the beautiful thing is we do. We're here, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we are. So many of us are thriving, so many
Speaker 1: of us are struggling, and I think it's important to acknowledge, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the wonderful privilege that we have. Most trans
Speaker 1: people don't have just access to any kind of gender
Speaker 1: affirming care, is expensive.
Speaker 2: Live in a state where we have right yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, you know, the battle continues, their journey continues.
Speaker 1: But I think it's wonderful for folks to see when
Speaker 1: we're thriving, to see that it is possible to be healthy, happy, successful, professionally,
Speaker 1: in love all the things. You know, that it's possible
Speaker 1: to have, be trans and have a life. And it's
Speaker 1: so important that we live our lives, be in our joy,
Speaker 1: show the world that there is joy in the face
Speaker 1: of all of this horrible stuff. What else do you
Speaker 1: want to say about all these laws, about the state
Speaker 1: of things? What else do you want to say to
Speaker 1: the world, to other transfer are just anybody listening out
Speaker 1: there so much.
Speaker 2: First of all, I want people to start standing with
Speaker 2: trans folks. I think that it's very easy for our
Speaker 2: trauma to be left up to us because we are
Speaker 2: such a small community. We need to see the same
Speaker 2: kind of outrage and the same kind of support behind
Speaker 2: every other movement throughout history that we've seen because trans
Speaker 2: people have been right there at the front lines whenever
Speaker 2: it comes to civil rights, whenever it comes to human decency,
Speaker 2: whenever it comes to fighting bigotry and fighting hatred. And
Speaker 2: we need to see all of those communities standing with
Speaker 2: trans people now because it affects all of us.
Speaker 1: And it's all connected. It's all connected. You know, when
Speaker 1: I was on MSNBC a few weeks ago, it was
Speaker 1: important for me to like acknowledge that as we see
Speaker 1: this rise in anti Semitism, that you know, the Nazi
Speaker 1: is one of the first things they did was burn
Speaker 1: Magnus Hirschfel's Clinic for Human Sexuality. So it's rise in
Speaker 1: anti semitism. We should be careful to not like have
Speaker 1: sea history repeating right now as we fight anti semitism,
Speaker 1: as we need to be fighting transphobia, racism, all of
Speaker 1: the things.
Speaker 2: All connected because it all shares the same route of
Speaker 2: a group of people thinking that they are inherently better
Speaker 2: than somebody else for some arbitrary reason that nobody can control.
Speaker 2: I've been talking a lot about this with my therapist,
Speaker 2: and I think that it's important that while we can
Speaker 2: recognize the differences in our histories and our experiences and
Speaker 2: say it has not been the same for me as
Speaker 2: it has been for you, I can never possibly imagine
Speaker 2: what it's been like to be a Jewish person living
Speaker 2: in America, to be a Black person living in America.
Speaker 2: But I understand that bigotry and hatred sucks for me,
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure it sucks for you too. So
Speaker 2: let's I think we all need to start working together
Speaker 2: and start marching and standing together rather than I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of squaw amongst ourselves, and there's a
Speaker 2: lot of division, and since the dawn of time, you know,
Speaker 2: they have been dividing and conquering. But there's more of
Speaker 2: us who don't fit into this mythical norm of being
Speaker 2: the straight white sis Christian, but the right kind of Christian,
Speaker 2: not this kind, not that kind, like this this mythical
Speaker 2: idea of what is normal. Yeah, the majority of us
Speaker 2: don't fit into that, and we all need to link
Speaker 2: up and become that bigger, scarier animal and say we
Speaker 2: reject this. We reject hatred in any form, We reject
Speaker 2: bigotry in any form, because it was bad when it
Speaker 2: happened to us, it was bad when it happened to you.
Speaker 2: It's always fucking bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. That was beautiful. Oh
Speaker 1: So I like to end every podcast that the question
Speaker 1: what else is true? It comes from my therapy and
Speaker 1: the idea of both. And even when we are struggling,
Speaker 1: even when there's something difficult for us, that is true,
Speaker 1: and we can focus on that, But something else is
Speaker 1: true as well. And if we focus on that other
Speaker 1: thing that's true, that thing that's affirming, that's positive, that's
Speaker 1: a resource that can shift our nervous systems, that can
Speaker 1: shift our awareness, and he can help us get through.
Speaker 1: So for you today, Nicole mains what else is true?
Speaker 2: I'm having fun. I'm having a lot of fun. I
Speaker 2: have admired you for a very long time, so it's
Speaker 2: very exciting for me to finally get to be able
Speaker 2: to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I am writing comic books. I know, I am.
Speaker 1: You cant even get to talk about that. That's incredible,
Speaker 1: so much fun, so much fun. I love it.
Speaker 2: I'm in love, like I said, playing video games every
Speaker 2: night with my boyfriend. Even though he's not here. We're
Speaker 2: spending time together.
Speaker 1: What video games? What any particular game you like?
Speaker 2: We're big into Overwatch too right now. He's really good
Speaker 2: at it. I'm only okay, but I'm reading my favorite
Speaker 2: book series to him. I'm showing him shows for my
Speaker 2: childhood that I like that he's seeing for the first time.
Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of fun. And I just wrapped
Speaker 2: season two of Yellow Jackets, which was so much fun.
Speaker 2: I'm having a plast.
Speaker 1: I interviewed Melanie Landscape from my show. If we're being honest,
Speaker 1: she's so amazing.
Speaker 2: I love her so much. I love all of them
Speaker 2: so much. So I'm having a really good time. So
Speaker 2: that's what I'm focusing on as all of this is happening.
Speaker 2: As I am in the throes of depression and feeling
Speaker 2: defeated so often every time I open my phone, I
Speaker 2: feel like it's a punch to the gut. I'm still
Speaker 2: having fun.
Speaker 1: Things like a lot of your dreams have come true
Speaker 1: and are coming true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, went out. I'm getting a little nervous.
Speaker 1: You just make new dreams, that's what you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nicole Maynes. You're a treasure and
Speaker 1: we'll have to do it again. I would love to
Speaker 1: Nicole Mains. Oh wow. So much of what happened in
Speaker 1: her childhood just I find horrifying and traumatizing, and what
Speaker 1: a gift that she's come out of it so happy.
Speaker 1: And I think that has to be attributed to therapy.
Speaker 1: We love therapy and to loving parents. I just love
Speaker 1: hearing about her parents being there and supporting her. With
Speaker 1: that level of support, you can raise happy, healthy, trans kids.
Speaker 1: And I really believe that what kids need more than
Speaker 1: anything else is to know that they are deeply and
Speaker 1: profoundly loved, cared for, and protected. And what I hear
Speaker 1: in the cold story are parents who deeply loved her,
Speaker 1: cared for her, and protected her. And certainly everyone isn't living,
Speaker 1: you know, this fairy tale life almost that Nicole is living.
Speaker 1: But she's just such a wonderful light. She gives me
Speaker 1: so much hope for young people. Her boyfriend and how
Speaker 1: open he is gives me hope for like men who
Speaker 1: find themselves attracted to trans women. And I hope that
Speaker 1: you've been inspired by this conversation and it's made you
Speaker 1: think about all those struggles that she went through as
Speaker 1: a kid, and she's come out with such resilience and
Speaker 1: such confidence. It's just awesome. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: listening to The Liver and Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me
Speaker 1: on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok Laverne Cox and on Facebook
Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in
Speaker 1: the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
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