WEBVTT - Transitioning as a Child and Beyond w/ Nicole Maines 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:04.519 Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:08.800 Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.880 It all boiled back down to trying to erase us 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.000 from public existence. They're saying, oh, you can't be in 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.759 sports because you have an advantage, and we say, okay, well, 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:20.560 if we can get the care when we want to 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:23.840 that advantage which really doesn't exist in the first place, 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:29.400 but just entertaining you, this hypothetical advantage, imagined, imagined advantage 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.720 wouldn't even exists if we can get the healthcare that 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:33.600 we want before puberty. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.600 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:49.560 name is Laverne Cox. In twenty thirteen, when Orange, Diet 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:54.480 and New Black premiered on Netflix, there were no transactors 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.560 with recurring roles on television at the time, and it 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.920 almost feels a cliche, but all the stories I've heard 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.080 from people all over the world about how the characters 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.000 I've played on television have helped them see themselves more, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:16.160 helped family members of theirs see them and accept them, 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.360 giving people courage to come out as trans to transition, 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:28.399 representation matters, and speaking of representation mattering, today's guest is 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.720 an openly transgender person who transitioned as a child, and 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.560 there is so much misinformation and propaganda about children transitioning, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.679 and I think it's so important for us to hear 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.240 from trans people, and particularly hear from trans young people, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.040 and hear from people who transitioned as kids. She is 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.680 an historic figure already at the age of twenty five, 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:54.760 and she is just so incredibly delightful. Our guest for 0:01:54.880 --> 0:02:00.120 today is Nicole Mains. Nicole Mayins is an actress and 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.920 transgender rights activist. Before her acting career, she was the 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.040 anonymous plaintiff in the main Supreme Court case Doe versus 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.079 Regional School Unit twenty six. The ruling in twenty fourteen 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.519 supporting bathroom choices for transgender students was the first ruling 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.360 of its kind by state court. As an actress, Nicole 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.400 is best known for playing TV's first transgender superhero on 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.560 the CW series Supergirl, a rule that will cross over 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.160 onto the next season of The Flash. Mains has been 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.239 nominated for a Glad Media Award and was a Variety 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.720 Magazines Power of Young Hollywood and Power Pride honoree for 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.840 her activism. Mains is an Upstanderd Award honoree given by 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:48.440 the LGBTQ plus advocacy group the Human Rights Campaign. On 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.840 top of all this, she is also a graphic novelist 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.640 for DC Comics and has co written a New York 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:59.600 Times bestseller, Becoming Nicole, The Transformation of an American Family. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:10.960 Please enjoy My Conversation with Nicole Mains. This episode was 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:16.000 recorded prior to the Saga after Strike. Hello, Nicole Mains, 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.040 Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.600 I am feeling so excited. I am so happy to 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.240 finally be talking to you and having this conversation, and 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:26.520 thank you very much for having me. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.799 Thank you. We will definitely have one offline too. I 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.120 would love to let folks know how we met for 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.200 the first time. You thought I didn't remember, Becky. There's 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:43.040 a wonderful HBO documentary called The Translist that was co 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.960 directed by Janet Mock. And when I went to do 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.000 my interview, you were leaving. Yeah, and I believe you 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:50.480 had blue hair at. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.720 The time, Thank you very much. It was green. 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.760 It was green. You had green hair at the time, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:57.600 and you were leaving, and of course I knew who 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.800 you were because of your case in Maine, and this 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.920 is before you were acting, And I don't know, what 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.800 do you remember about the translist in that moment in 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:09.280 your lives? 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:13.760 Well, I mean I remember being the sickest I have 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.200 ever been when we were recording that, and so watching 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.680 it when we watched it back at the premiere, I 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.400 was like, wow, I sound like I'm about an inch 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.680 away from death. But I remember being so excited to 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.240 do it. And I think that was the first time 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:33.080 I met Janet too, but it was I had a 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.800 really great time doing that interview because that was one 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.839 of the first times I remember that I had gotten 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.880 to tell my own story and I had gotten to 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.159 use my own voice in my own words. And I mean, 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.560 you know, everyone's constantly controlling the narrative around us and 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.760 constantly speaking over us and speaking for us and telling 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:59.440 our stories, and especially as a trans use, it was always. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.080 How old were you at the time, So this is 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.520 twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, so. 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.679 You would have been seventeen eighteen. 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.159 Oh my goodness. Wow. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.240 Yeah, So that was one of the first times that 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.719 I had really gotten to say what I wanted to 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.600 say and in my way, and that was really empowering. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:22.040 Do you remember what you said in that interview that 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.479 like you really needed to say and wanted to say 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.240 for a long time. I mean, we knew you because 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.640 of the case do versus Regional School Unit twenty six. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.360 What did you feel like you needed to say in 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.760 that documentary more than anything else? 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.960 I mean, the thing that had always been on my mind, 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.400 And this was a journey that had started actually long 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.560 before then, but really culminated in the fifth grade when 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.520 everything you know and sha at the vans am I 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:50.200 allowed to curse? 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:55.640 Yes, absolutely, Oh, thank god, curse. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:57.200 Be Oh, this is going to be a long interview. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.159 We're going to talk about trans rites and can't curse. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.400 But I remember when all the shit hit the fan, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.240 and the thought that was just like constantly going through 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:13.360 my head was like, what is everybody getting so up 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.400 in arms about? I just want to go use the bathroom. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:19.760 These are the girls who have been my friends, These 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.520 are the girls who I have had sleepovers with, who 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.680 I have shared a bed with. No one was talking 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.359 to me, No one was talking to my friends. Everybody 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:33.960 was getting these accounts and opinions from folks I didn't 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.799 have classes with, folks who I didn't know, and doing 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.440 that interview for me, I was able to finally just say, like, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.720 what is the big FM deal? Like, what is going on? 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.400 I felt like I was in the twilight zone. 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.560 So we should go back a little bit. You are 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.560 obviously trans and you transitioned as a child, and I think, 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.000 if I recall correctly and doing research, was like three 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.600 years old. You told your parents, yeah, four years old, 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.560 and you have an identical twin, ap an identical twin 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.160 as well. Yeah, and do you want to talk a 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.960 little bit about that process of chatting with your parents 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:09.920 and the age and you were like, this is not 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.440 this whole assigned male at birth thing isn't really working 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:12.720 for me? 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.360 I mean I and so I get so fired up 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.440 over anytime people talk about the grooming or talking about 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:25.080 oh who made you this way? Who trans you? And 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.720 I just I'm like, I feel that I am such 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.640 a like perfect case of like nobody told me, I 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.600 did all of the things that people want us to do. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.480 Grow up in a perfectly nuclear household, grow up you know, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.480 in a rural, small town conservative My dad was a Republican. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.000 You know, I feel like we did all the things 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.480 we were supposed to do, and I still had this 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:55.360 instinctual feeling of difference, and as soon as I was 0:07:55.440 --> 0:08:00.000 able to tell the societal differences between girls and bold, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.280 I knew where on that spectrum I was falling, and 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.800 I knew where on that spectrum my brother was falling. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.720 And he was kind of my control group through all 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.840 of it, because I was like, Okay, I see how 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.160 he's interacting with the world around us. I see And 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.800 I mean, you know, identical twins. Everyone wanted us to 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.960 be clones, which is I've always thought it was fucking weird. 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.800 I know, it's that's a whole other podcast, super weird. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.520 But I was like, I am not the same as him. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.040 I am having a different relationship with all of these things. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.560 And you knew who you were. I think the biggest 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.800 piece is that you knew at three years old who 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.000 you were, and as soon as you could tell someone, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.640 you did. And I think that is when we look 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:44.559 at all the sort of propaganda right now around trans kids, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:52.880 we're missing that and your process around socially transitioning. I mean, 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.400 there's so much misinformation and misconceptions about like trans kids 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.480 and what happens, and I you know, I'm not into 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.600 focusing on medical transition. I think that stuff is private. Yeah, 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.319 but what do you want to say about your social 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.120 transition transition as a child, what that evolution was like? 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.160 And then you know, let's talk about fifth grade when 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:16.760 the ship was the ban well. 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.000 I think before I say that, I want to say 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.800 the amazing and remarkable thing about children is this innocent bravery. 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.560 I think that they all had. And like you said, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.600 as soon as I could say something, I did. Because 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.040 hate is learned, bigotry has learned, the two perfectly shaped 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.679 male and female boxes are learned. For me, it was 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.240 such an instinctual, natural thing, and I did not know 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.080 that there was anything wrong I'm using air quotes for 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.400 those listening, anything wrong with what I was feeling. I 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.920 just had felt like, oh, okay, I will bring this 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.680 to my parents because clearly, my all knowing, protective parents 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.840 will know what to do certainly. And it was through 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.040 people's reactions that I realized, oh, is this not a 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.280 normal thing. But when we're talking about other people's reactions, 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.320 other kids were not the ones with the problems. Before 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.840 I started socially transitioning, it was part of my introduction. 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.160 I would say, Hi, my name's Wyatt. I'm a boy 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:16.800 who wants to be a girl. What's your name? And 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.120 someone would say, Hi, I'm Ryan. I like the color 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.360 red and fire trucks. It was on the same that 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:22.960 same level of normalcy for me. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.280 How old were you when you would introduce yourself this way? 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:27.960 Oh, this looks first grade because I was at a 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:29.960 new school and nobody knew the situation, and I just 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:31.280 wanted everyone to know that. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.720 I was like this, Wow, and the kids, you know, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.320 it's so funny. Years ago, a dear friend of mine, 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.480 Mila Can I'll say, Mela jam I've known her since 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.480 before she transitioned, and she she toured in written so 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.520 she's done does musicals, and she did musicals, still does, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.440 and she's a recording artist. And she had done a 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.319 musical before she transitioned. And then after she transitioned, the 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.680 director wanted to bring her back, but now playing a 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:01.160 woman's role. And Mela had met the director's daughter before 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.000 she transitioned, and so she sees the daughter again and 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.760 the and the director says, oh, this is Mela. She 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.080 used to be you know, blah blah, and she's a 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.480 girl now. And I think her daughter was like, you know, 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.280 six years old, He's like, oh cool, let's play. Yeah, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:18.160 and it was like. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.840 It's so remarkably uninteresting to kids. Yeah, they so don't care. 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.760 It's so boring unless they're taught to care and taught 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.760 that it's an issue, right, that hatred is learned. I 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.640 just I love telling that story because it was just like, Okay, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:35.840 let's play. It wasn't like. 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.880 I was getting lessons from the other girls how to 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:45.280 be a girl. I remember being in kindergarten and all 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.920 my friends were girls, and my best friend Cassandra was 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.800 teaching me that girls don't use paper towels to try 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:56.360 their hands, they like shake them off, which is I 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:57.360 don't think true. 0:11:58.600 --> 0:11:59.920 I don't think that's a girl thing. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.800 I think Cassandra was a little messy. But I was 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:05.960 like I was eating it up, and I was like, yeah, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.040 totally for sure, because I was learning the rules of 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.319 girlhood or you know whatever. Cassandra's rules of girl herd 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.720 were in kindergarten from other girls, and they it was 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.400 never a problem. There was nothing wrong with it. They 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:18.280 hadn't learned it yet. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.040 So all through elementary school, everything is okay, so you're 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.880 openly trans and then in fifth grade there was the 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.640 grandparent of one of the students who had an issue. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:29.840 Can you tell what happened? 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.440 So I did my social transition really really slow out 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.400 of consideration for the straits, and so like every year 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.760 we would do, Okay, now you're gonna start throwing your 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:41.440 hair out next year. You can wear pink next year, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.480 and so on and so forth. And by the time 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.199 I was in fifth grade, i'd fully socially transitioned. That's 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.040 when I started going by Nicole. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.200 Now were you were you doing therapy? Were you doing 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.439 lots of therapy? So I know your parents because you're 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.320 I know your dad, who is a Republican, was like 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.120 really not on board, and then he eventually got on board. 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:58.760 So you were in therapy right. 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.320 In therapy from second grade. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.760 Yeah, So you're just to let people know part of 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.360 your gender affirming care as a child was therapy. Yeah, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.280 pre puberty. Yeah, okay, exactly, that was your gender firming care. 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.079 Therapy and the combination with the therapy. And then as 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.080 you get older, we start to talk about possibility being 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.360 a candidate for medical transition, which not everybody may want 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.280 to do or write or whatever the case may be. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:30.960 But therapy from very area, yes, wonderful. So this was something. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.320 So the narrative that all of a sudden, like you know, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.839 a child decides and then like next week there that's 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.800 not happening. Huh, I know, Ray, that's not happening. And 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.920 then there's girls health insurance and the expense of it anyway, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:47.440 So okay, so I just want you to get that eui 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.719 of way. So you're in fifth grade, so taught to me. 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.400 Yeah, so fifth grade, I have fully transitioned. I'm going 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:57.160 by Nicole and the big like marker in our elementary 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.480 school to kind of like get us ready for middle 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:04.880 school was now the bathrooms are multi stall and because 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.840 you know in the grade school you have like the 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.960 just one male when one female bathroom in the classroom, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.440 and so now I'm using the multi style bathroom with 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.720 all the other girls and everything's fine. And so I 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:21.800 have another student in my class who his grandfather was 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.920 a member of this special interest Christian right group call 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.880 at the time, I think they've changed their name, that 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.280 was called the Christian Civic League of name, and he 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.760 had caught wind from his grandson that I was trans 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.200 and his grandfather of course lost his ship and the 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.440 group lost their ship. And so they did a couple 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.880 of things. First, they pressured the school and they said, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.400 we are going to suit you if you keep letting. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.360 This happens happened, meaning you're using the girls bathroom. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.200 Yeah. And the second thing is they used his grandson 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.440 as a political pawn, this fifth grade boy, as a 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.720 political pawn, and had him follow me into the girl's bathroom. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.800 And when the teacher went to pull him out of 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.440 the bathroom, and obviously he got in trouble, he said, well, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.880 I'm just a girl using the girl's bathroom, And that 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.000 was the basis of their claim. They were like, well, 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.600 why can this boy use the girls room and not 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:23.160 this boy? And that was the whole thing. And this was, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:27.360 of course, when I began transitioning, there was still hardly 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.000 any information about trans adults. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.560 So this is fifth grade, so you're about ten years old. 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.680 So this is two thousand and seven. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.760 Yeah, right, two thousand and seven, So there's still not 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.840 a lot of information about trans folks, and especially not 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:44.120 about trans children. So the school completely buckled. And we 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.400 had had such an amazing relationship with the school moving 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.280 up until this point because, like I said, we were 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.120 very considerate the straits and we made sure that everyone 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.200 was communicating. If people had questions, we could talk about it. 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.320 And we were all doing this in a way where 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:07.680 everyone was comfortable. And the school completely did a one 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.800 eight and they said, okay, well, if Nicole's in the 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.720 girls bathroom is the problem, no problem, We'll have her 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.120 use the staff bathroom. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:17.600 How did that make you feel? Because there's there's I 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.480 mean Gavin Graham's case, there have been many cases of 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.800 trans kids that becomes the solution that they use a 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.760 staff bathroom. How did that make you feel as a 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.360 fifth grader to be put in that position? 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.400 Confused? Confused because I had been doing everything right. I 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.400 was a good kid, and I didn't quite know what 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.040 to make of it. I remember, I remember every moment 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.200 of him going into the bathroom, and then I remember 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.600 being in the guidance Counsel's office with my two friends 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.560 and they had told me that he was calling me 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.080 a fagot behind my back, and he had said that 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.680 my Grandpapy says, we don't have to have any faggots 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:56.360 in our school. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:03.520 So then, oh, oh, I just I mean, hello, my 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.480 own trauma I think is coming up. Oh yeah, so 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.199 we don't have to have any of the words in 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.879 our school, meaning that the goal was to get you 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:13.719 out of the school. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:14.400 I don't know. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.520 It seems to be implied, but anyway. 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.280 Yeah, I honestly have never I honestly have never thought 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.960 about their endgame, And honestly, I'm not sure if they 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.200 had one. I think that it was a shortsighted, hateful, 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:33.480 little stint to feel like they had some power over somebody, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.600 which is what it all is at the end of 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.240 the day. It's always about making sure that you are 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.359 above somebody else, and there's always somebody underneath you whose 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.520 neck you can step on, and displaying that power. So 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.040 I don't know what they wanted. I don't care what 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.240 they wanted because that was the beginning of my life 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.359 coming apart, and everything that my family had done started 0:17:58.400 --> 0:17:59.000 coming apart. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:01.560 Did it come apart? What happened? 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:07.560 So people pick up on the examples that by their leaders, 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.399 and when you start treating a student in a way, 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.600 or treating anybody in a way that suggests, hey, they 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.199 are not fit to be kept in the same public 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:24.879 spaces as you. They have to be kept in a 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:29.800 separate bathroom, they have to be kept away from everybody else. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.040 That is a very powerful message that people pick up on. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:40.919 We started experiencing harassment from folks we had never had 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:41.480 a problem with. 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.159 So up until this point, everything is going fine, Everything 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:46.240 is going great, and. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.800 I mean, you know, there are always baffles. But it 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.880 was it was never worse than you know, a girl 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.800 on the bus used to call me it on the 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.280 way home, and that was traumatizing and fun but I 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.640 called her a dumb mouse in fourth grade. Muhare really good. 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:08.879 But that was the just childish bullying was the worst 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:13.840 of it. And now this had propelled it into this 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.520 public space where now there are news bands outside of school, 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.720 and now everybody's talking about it, and now it's become 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.240 this topic of conversation in the community, and it gets 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.600 to the point where we can't go to see the 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:33.160 movies without the whispers and the stairs and the pointing. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.160 And so you're this is Maine. So I'm assuming it's 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.320 not a big community. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.440 No, not at all, Oh god, no, No, it's more 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:46.400 treatent people. It's very very small, very tight knit, and 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.320 it just sent a shockwave through the community. And my 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.280 parents did their best to shield my brother and I 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.280 from that because their goal was always to have us 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.400 have as normal as child this is possible. And when 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.600 this happened, it just blew the door off its hinges. 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:13.840 And I remember we went to some play were I 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.080 think it was the Sound of Music. We went to 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.560 watch a performance at the high school that did not 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.240 have gender neutral bathrooms, and so an intermission, I'm going 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.480 into the girl's bathroom and classmates of mine were coming 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.160 out of it, classmates who I never had a problem with, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.040 who I had been considering friends, and they said, no, 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.399 you can't go in there. That's not for you. You're not 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:43.560 supposed to be in there, and I was like, what 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.680 the hell? So I also called her a dumbasus and 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.000 I want it anyway. 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.880 So this so I think part of what I'm hearing 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.159 is that this stigma and this is deep. This is 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.800 thank you so much for sharing this. What had been 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:04.840 smooth sailing up until fifth grade, when a big stink 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.960 was made about it, all of a sudden, the community 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:14.160 followed suit, and then what was relatively normal for most 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.040 of the other kids, you being the girl that you are, 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.800 became something that was stigmatized, and then you were ostracized. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:27.640 And so I think what people should understand from your story, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.440 and what's happening with all these anti trans bills targeting 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.600 children is that it is fostering an environment where we're 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.360 going to be even more stigmatized, normal hate, and then 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.720 like everybody policing you and trying to make you feel other. 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.119 First of all, it's creating mountains Anamol hills, as my 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:48.840 third grade teacher would always say, and it's exactly what 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:54.960 you said, fostering an environment of hatreots, and it's normalizing hate, 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.679 which is something that I don't think anyone in America 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.520 is a stranger to, especially after our last commander in chief. 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:05.080 And that's what that was such a difficult time for me, 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.080 the twenty sixteen election, because it was so much of 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.280 what I had grown up with, and it was and 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:16.359 I saw it happening all over again. It was I 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:21.040 see how people follow the leader, and it's so important 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:26.680 that our leaders and our policymakers and our legislators set 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:32.920 good examples and lead with compassion and empathy. And seeing 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:38.680 what they're doing now is so first of all disgraceful. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:46.119 Second of all, just I don't understand how we have 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.440 not set a higher bar for our country. But that's 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:49.240 another conversation. 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.560 Well, I think we're just in some major backlash against 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:57.920 transvisibility right now, we're being scapegoaded. This is a good 0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:59.160 time to take a little break. 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:06.440 Okay, we're back. 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.119 I think it's important to talk about the lawsuit that 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:16.399