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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: It all boiled back down to trying to erase us

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Speaker 2: from public existence. They're saying, oh, you can't be in

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Speaker 2: sports because you have an advantage, and we say, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: if we can get the care when we want to

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Speaker 2: that advantage which really doesn't exist in the first place,

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Speaker 2: but just entertaining you, this hypothetical advantage, imagined, imagined advantage

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Speaker 2: wouldn't even exists if we can get the healthcare that

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Speaker 2: we want before puberty.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Laverne Cox. In twenty thirteen, when Orange, Diet

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Speaker 1: and New Black premiered on Netflix, there were no transactors

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Speaker 1: with recurring roles on television at the time, and it

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Speaker 1: almost feels a cliche, but all the stories I've heard

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Speaker 1: from people all over the world about how the characters

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Speaker 1: I've played on television have helped them see themselves more,

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Speaker 1: helped family members of theirs see them and accept them,

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Speaker 1: giving people courage to come out as trans to transition,

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Speaker 1: representation matters, and speaking of representation mattering, today's guest is

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Speaker 1: an openly transgender person who transitioned as a child, and

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Speaker 1: there is so much misinformation and propaganda about children transitioning,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's so important for us to hear

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Speaker 1: from trans people, and particularly hear from trans young people,

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Speaker 1: and hear from people who transitioned as kids. She is

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Speaker 1: an historic figure already at the age of twenty five,

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Speaker 1: and she is just so incredibly delightful. Our guest for

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Speaker 1: today is Nicole Mains. Nicole Mayins is an actress and

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Speaker 1: transgender rights activist. Before her acting career, she was the

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Speaker 1: anonymous plaintiff in the main Supreme Court case Doe versus

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Speaker 1: Regional School Unit twenty six. The ruling in twenty fourteen

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Speaker 1: supporting bathroom choices for transgender students was the first ruling

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Speaker 1: of its kind by state court. As an actress, Nicole

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Speaker 1: is best known for playing TV's first transgender superhero on

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Speaker 1: the CW series Supergirl, a rule that will cross over

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Speaker 1: onto the next season of The Flash. Mains has been

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Speaker 1: nominated for a Glad Media Award and was a Variety

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Speaker 1: Magazines Power of Young Hollywood and Power Pride honoree for

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Speaker 1: her activism. Mains is an Upstanderd Award honoree given by

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Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus advocacy group the Human Rights Campaign. On

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Speaker 1: top of all this, she is also a graphic novelist

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Speaker 1: for DC Comics and has co written a New York

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Speaker 1: Times bestseller, Becoming Nicole, The Transformation of an American Family.

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Speaker 1: Please enjoy My Conversation with Nicole Mains. This episode was

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Speaker 1: recorded prior to the Saga after Strike. Hello, Nicole Mains,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling.

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Speaker 2: I am feeling so excited. I am so happy to

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Speaker 2: finally be talking to you and having this conversation, and

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Speaker 2: thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. We will definitely have one offline too. I

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Speaker 1: would love to let folks know how we met for

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Speaker 1: the first time. You thought I didn't remember, Becky. There's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful HBO documentary called The Translist that was co

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Speaker 1: directed by Janet Mock. And when I went to do

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Speaker 1: my interview, you were leaving. Yeah, and I believe you

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Speaker 1: had blue hair at.

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Speaker 2: The time, Thank you very much. It was green.

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Speaker 1: It was green. You had green hair at the time,

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Speaker 1: and you were leaving, and of course I knew who

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Speaker 1: you were because of your case in Maine, and this

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Speaker 1: is before you were acting, And I don't know, what

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Speaker 1: do you remember about the translist in that moment in

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Speaker 1: your lives?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I remember being the sickest I have

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Speaker 2: ever been when we were recording that, and so watching

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Speaker 2: it when we watched it back at the premiere, I

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Speaker 2: was like, wow, I sound like I'm about an inch

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Speaker 2: away from death. But I remember being so excited to

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Speaker 2: do it. And I think that was the first time

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Speaker 2: I met Janet too, but it was I had a

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Speaker 2: really great time doing that interview because that was one

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Speaker 2: of the first times I remember that I had gotten

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Speaker 2: to tell my own story and I had gotten to

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Speaker 2: use my own voice in my own words. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, everyone's constantly controlling the narrative around us and

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Speaker 2: constantly speaking over us and speaking for us and telling

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Speaker 2: our stories, and especially as a trans use, it was always.

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Speaker 1: How old were you at the time, So this is

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, so.

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Speaker 2: You would have been seventeen eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was one of the first times that

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Speaker 2: I had really gotten to say what I wanted to

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Speaker 2: say and in my way, and that was really empowering.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what you said in that interview that

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Speaker 1: like you really needed to say and wanted to say

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Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, we knew you because

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Speaker 1: of the case do versus Regional School Unit twenty six.

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Speaker 1: What did you feel like you needed to say in

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Speaker 1: that documentary more than anything else?

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Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that had always been on my mind,

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Speaker 2: And this was a journey that had started actually long

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Speaker 2: before then, but really culminated in the fifth grade when

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Speaker 2: everything you know and sha at the vans am I

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Speaker 2: allowed to curse?

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Oh, thank god, curse.

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Speaker 2: Be Oh, this is going to be a long interview.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about trans rites and can't curse.

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Speaker 2: But I remember when all the shit hit the fan,

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Speaker 2: and the thought that was just like constantly going through

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Speaker 2: my head was like, what is everybody getting so up

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Speaker 2: in arms about? I just want to go use the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: These are the girls who have been my friends, These

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Speaker 2: are the girls who I have had sleepovers with, who

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Speaker 2: I have shared a bed with. No one was talking

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Speaker 2: to me, No one was talking to my friends. Everybody

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Speaker 2: was getting these accounts and opinions from folks I didn't

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Speaker 2: have classes with, folks who I didn't know, and doing

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Speaker 2: that interview for me, I was able to finally just say, like,

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Speaker 2: what is the big FM deal? Like, what is going on?

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Speaker 2: I felt like I was in the twilight zone.

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Speaker 1: So we should go back a little bit. You are

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Speaker 1: obviously trans and you transitioned as a child, and I think,

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Speaker 1: if I recall correctly and doing research, was like three

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Speaker 1: years old. You told your parents, yeah, four years old,

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Speaker 1: and you have an identical twin, ap an identical twin

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and do you want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that process of chatting with your parents

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Speaker 1: and the age and you were like, this is not

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Speaker 1: this whole assigned male at birth thing isn't really working

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Speaker 1: for me?

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Speaker 2: I mean I and so I get so fired up

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Speaker 2: over anytime people talk about the grooming or talking about

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Speaker 2: oh who made you this way? Who trans you? And

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Speaker 2: I just I'm like, I feel that I am such

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Speaker 2: a like perfect case of like nobody told me, I

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Speaker 2: did all of the things that people want us to do.

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Speaker 2: Grow up in a perfectly nuclear household, grow up you know,

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Speaker 2: in a rural, small town conservative My dad was a Republican.

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Speaker 2: You know, I feel like we did all the things

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Speaker 2: we were supposed to do, and I still had this

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Speaker 2: instinctual feeling of difference, and as soon as I was

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Speaker 2: able to tell the societal differences between girls and bold,

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Speaker 2: I knew where on that spectrum I was falling, and

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Speaker 2: I knew where on that spectrum my brother was falling.

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Speaker 2: And he was kind of my control group through all

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Speaker 2: of it, because I was like, Okay, I see how

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Speaker 2: he's interacting with the world around us. I see And

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, identical twins. Everyone wanted us to

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Speaker 2: be clones, which is I've always thought it was fucking weird.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's that's a whole other podcast, super weird.

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Speaker 2: But I was like, I am not the same as him.

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Speaker 2: I am having a different relationship with all of these things.

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Speaker 1: And you knew who you were. I think the biggest

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Speaker 1: piece is that you knew at three years old who

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Speaker 1: you were, and as soon as you could tell someone,

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Speaker 1: you did. And I think that is when we look

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Speaker 1: at all the sort of propaganda right now around trans kids,

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Speaker 1: we're missing that and your process around socially transitioning. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much misinformation and misconceptions about like trans kids

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Speaker 1: and what happens, and I you know, I'm not into

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Speaker 1: focusing on medical transition. I think that stuff is private. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what do you want to say about your social

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Speaker 1: transition transition as a child, what that evolution was like?

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Speaker 1: And then you know, let's talk about fifth grade when

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Speaker 1: the ship was the ban well.

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Speaker 2: I think before I say that, I want to say

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Speaker 2: the amazing and remarkable thing about children is this innocent bravery.

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Speaker 2: I think that they all had. And like you said,

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Speaker 2: as soon as I could say something, I did. Because

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Speaker 2: hate is learned, bigotry has learned, the two perfectly shaped

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Speaker 2: male and female boxes are learned. For me, it was

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Speaker 2: such an instinctual, natural thing, and I did not know

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Speaker 2: that there was anything wrong I'm using air quotes for

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Speaker 2: those listening, anything wrong with what I was feeling. I

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Speaker 2: just had felt like, oh, okay, I will bring this

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Speaker 2: to my parents because clearly, my all knowing, protective parents

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Speaker 2: will know what to do certainly. And it was through

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Speaker 2: people's reactions that I realized, oh, is this not a

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Speaker 2: normal thing. But when we're talking about other people's reactions,

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Speaker 2: other kids were not the ones with the problems. Before

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Speaker 2: I started socially transitioning, it was part of my introduction.

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Speaker 2: I would say, Hi, my name's Wyatt. I'm a boy

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Speaker 2: who wants to be a girl. What's your name? And

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Speaker 2: someone would say, Hi, I'm Ryan. I like the color

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Speaker 2: red and fire trucks. It was on the same that

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Speaker 2: same level of normalcy for me.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you would introduce yourself this way?

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Speaker 2: Oh, this looks first grade because I was at a

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Speaker 2: new school and nobody knew the situation, and I just

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Speaker 2: wanted everyone to know that.

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Speaker 1: I was like this, Wow, and the kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's so funny. Years ago, a dear friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Mila Can I'll say, Mela jam I've known her since

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Speaker 1: before she transitioned, and she she toured in written so

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Speaker 1: she's done does musicals, and she did musicals, still does,

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Speaker 1: and she's a recording artist. And she had done a

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Speaker 1: musical before she transitioned. And then after she transitioned, the

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Speaker 1: director wanted to bring her back, but now playing a

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Speaker 1: woman's role. And Mela had met the director's daughter before

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Speaker 1: she transitioned, and so she sees the daughter again and

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Speaker 1: the and the director says, oh, this is Mela. She

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Speaker 1: used to be you know, blah blah, and she's a

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Speaker 1: girl now. And I think her daughter was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: six years old, He's like, oh cool, let's play. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was like.

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Speaker 2: It's so remarkably uninteresting to kids. Yeah, they so don't care.

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Speaker 1: It's so boring unless they're taught to care and taught

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Speaker 1: that it's an issue, right, that hatred is learned. I

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Speaker 1: just I love telling that story because it was just like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's play. It wasn't like.

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Speaker 2: I was getting lessons from the other girls how to

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Speaker 2: be a girl. I remember being in kindergarten and all

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Speaker 2: my friends were girls, and my best friend Cassandra was

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Speaker 2: teaching me that girls don't use paper towels to try

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Speaker 2: their hands, they like shake them off, which is I

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Speaker 2: don't think true.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's a girl thing.

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Speaker 2: I think Cassandra was a little messy. But I was

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Speaker 2: like I was eating it up, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: totally for sure, because I was learning the rules of

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Speaker 2: girlhood or you know whatever. Cassandra's rules of girl herd

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Speaker 2: were in kindergarten from other girls, and they it was

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Speaker 2: never a problem. There was nothing wrong with it. They

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Speaker 2: hadn't learned it yet.

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Speaker 1: So all through elementary school, everything is okay, so you're

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Speaker 1: openly trans and then in fifth grade there was the

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Speaker 1: grandparent of one of the students who had an issue.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell what happened?

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Speaker 2: So I did my social transition really really slow out

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Speaker 2: of consideration for the straits, and so like every year

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Speaker 2: we would do, Okay, now you're gonna start throwing your

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Speaker 2: hair out next year. You can wear pink next year,

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Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. And by the time

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Speaker 2: I was in fifth grade, i'd fully socially transitioned. That's

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Speaker 2: when I started going by Nicole.

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Speaker 1: Now were you were you doing therapy? Were you doing

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Speaker 1: lots of therapy? So I know your parents because you're

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Speaker 1: I know your dad, who is a Republican, was like

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Speaker 1: really not on board, and then he eventually got on board.

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Speaker 1: So you were in therapy right.

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Speaker 2: In therapy from second grade.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you're just to let people know part of

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Speaker 1: your gender affirming care as a child was therapy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pre puberty. Yeah, okay, exactly, that was your gender firming care.

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Speaker 2: Therapy and the combination with the therapy. And then as

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Speaker 2: you get older, we start to talk about possibility being

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Speaker 2: a candidate for medical transition, which not everybody may want

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Speaker 2: to do or write or whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 1: But therapy from very area, yes, wonderful. So this was something.

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Speaker 1: So the narrative that all of a sudden, like you know,

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Speaker 1: a child decides and then like next week there that's

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Speaker 1: not happening. Huh, I know, Ray, that's not happening. And

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Speaker 1: then there's girls health insurance and the expense of it anyway,

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Speaker 1: So okay, so I just want you to get that eui

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Speaker 1: of way. So you're in fifth grade, so taught to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fifth grade, I have fully transitioned. I'm going

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Speaker 2: by Nicole and the big like marker in our elementary

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Speaker 2: school to kind of like get us ready for middle

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Speaker 2: school was now the bathrooms are multi stall and because

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Speaker 2: you know in the grade school you have like the

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Speaker 2: just one male when one female bathroom in the classroom,

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Speaker 2: and so now I'm using the multi style bathroom with

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Speaker 2: all the other girls and everything's fine. And so I

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Speaker 2: have another student in my class who his grandfather was

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Speaker 2: a member of this special interest Christian right group call

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Speaker 2: at the time, I think they've changed their name, that

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Speaker 2: was called the Christian Civic League of name, and he

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Speaker 2: had caught wind from his grandson that I was trans

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Speaker 2: and his grandfather of course lost his ship and the

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Speaker 2: group lost their ship. And so they did a couple

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Speaker 2: of things. First, they pressured the school and they said,

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Speaker 2: we are going to suit you if you keep letting.

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Speaker 1: This happens happened, meaning you're using the girls bathroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the second thing is they used his grandson

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Speaker 2: as a political pawn, this fifth grade boy, as a

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Speaker 2: political pawn, and had him follow me into the girl's bathroom.

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Speaker 2: And when the teacher went to pull him out of

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Speaker 2: the bathroom, and obviously he got in trouble, he said, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a girl using the girl's bathroom, And that

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Speaker 2: was the basis of their claim. They were like, well,

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Speaker 2: why can this boy use the girls room and not

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Speaker 2: this boy? And that was the whole thing. And this was,

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Speaker 2: of course, when I began transitioning, there was still hardly

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Speaker 2: any information about trans adults.

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Speaker 1: So this is fifth grade, so you're about ten years old.

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Speaker 1: So this is two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, two thousand and seven, So there's still not

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Speaker 2: a lot of information about trans folks, and especially not

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Speaker 2: about trans children. So the school completely buckled. And we

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Speaker 2: had had such an amazing relationship with the school moving

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Speaker 2: up until this point because, like I said, we were

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Speaker 2: very considerate the straits and we made sure that everyone

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Speaker 2: was communicating. If people had questions, we could talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And we were all doing this in a way where

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Speaker 2: everyone was comfortable. And the school completely did a one

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Speaker 2: eight and they said, okay, well, if Nicole's in the

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Speaker 2: girls bathroom is the problem, no problem, We'll have her

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Speaker 2: use the staff bathroom.

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Speaker 1: How did that make you feel? Because there's there's I

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Speaker 1: mean Gavin Graham's case, there have been many cases of

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Speaker 1: trans kids that becomes the solution that they use a

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Speaker 1: staff bathroom. How did that make you feel as a

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Speaker 1: fifth grader to be put in that position?

295
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Speaker 2: Confused? Confused because I had been doing everything right. I

296
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Speaker 2: was a good kid, and I didn't quite know what

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Speaker 2: to make of it. I remember, I remember every moment

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Speaker 2: of him going into the bathroom, and then I remember

299
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Speaker 2: being in the guidance Counsel's office with my two friends

300
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Speaker 2: and they had told me that he was calling me

301
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Speaker 2: a fagot behind my back, and he had said that

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00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 2: my Grandpapy says, we don't have to have any faggots

303
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Speaker 2: in our school.

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Speaker 1: So then, oh, oh, I just I mean, hello, my

305
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Speaker 1: own trauma I think is coming up. Oh yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we don't have to have any of the words in

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Speaker 1: our school, meaning that the goal was to get you

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Speaker 1: out of the school.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be implied, but anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I honestly have never I honestly have never thought

312
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Speaker 2: about their endgame, And honestly, I'm not sure if they

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Speaker 2: had one. I think that it was a shortsighted, hateful,

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Speaker 2: little stint to feel like they had some power over somebody,

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Speaker 2: which is what it all is at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day. It's always about making sure that you are

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Speaker 2: above somebody else, and there's always somebody underneath you whose

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Speaker 2: neck you can step on, and displaying that power. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they wanted. I don't care what

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Speaker 2: they wanted because that was the beginning of my life

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Speaker 2: coming apart, and everything that my family had done started

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Speaker 2: coming apart.

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Speaker 1: Did it come apart? What happened?

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Speaker 2: So people pick up on the examples that by their leaders,

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Speaker 2: and when you start treating a student in a way,

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Speaker 2: or treating anybody in a way that suggests, hey, they

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Speaker 2: are not fit to be kept in the same public

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Speaker 2: spaces as you. They have to be kept in a

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Speaker 2: separate bathroom, they have to be kept away from everybody else.

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Speaker 2: That is a very powerful message that people pick up on.

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Speaker 2: We started experiencing harassment from folks we had never had

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Speaker 2: a problem with.

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Speaker 1: So up until this point, everything is going fine, Everything

334
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Speaker 1: is going great, and.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there are always baffles. But it

336
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,880
Speaker 2: was it was never worse than you know, a girl

337
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Speaker 2: on the bus used to call me it on the

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Speaker 2: way home, and that was traumatizing and fun but I

339
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 2: called her a dumb mouse in fourth grade. Muhare really good.

340
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 2: But that was the just childish bullying was the worst

341
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 2: of it. And now this had propelled it into this

342
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 2: public space where now there are news bands outside of school,

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Speaker 2: and now everybody's talking about it, and now it's become

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00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 2: this topic of conversation in the community, and it gets

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00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 2: to the point where we can't go to see the

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00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 2: movies without the whispers and the stairs and the pointing.

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Speaker 1: And so you're this is Maine. So I'm assuming it's

348
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Speaker 1: not a big community.

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Speaker 2: No, not at all, Oh god, no, No, it's more

350
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 2: treatent people. It's very very small, very tight knit, and

351
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Speaker 2: it just sent a shockwave through the community. And my

352
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 2: parents did their best to shield my brother and I

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Speaker 2: from that because their goal was always to have us

354
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Speaker 2: have as normal as child this is possible. And when

355
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Speaker 2: this happened, it just blew the door off its hinges.

356
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 2: And I remember we went to some play were I

357
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 2: think it was the Sound of Music. We went to

358
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 2: watch a performance at the high school that did not

359
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 2: have gender neutral bathrooms, and so an intermission, I'm going

360
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: into the girl's bathroom and classmates of mine were coming

361
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 2: out of it, classmates who I never had a problem with,

362
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: who I had been considering friends, and they said, no,

363
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 2: you can't go in there. That's not for you. You're not

364
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 2: supposed to be in there, and I was like, what

365
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: the hell? So I also called her a dumbasus and

366
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 2: I want it anyway.

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Speaker 1: So this so I think part of what I'm hearing

368
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Speaker 1: is that this stigma and this is deep. This is

369
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Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing this. What had been

370
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: smooth sailing up until fifth grade, when a big stink

371
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: was made about it, all of a sudden, the community

372
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 1: followed suit, and then what was relatively normal for most

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Speaker 1: of the other kids, you being the girl that you are,

374
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Speaker 1: became something that was stigmatized, and then you were ostracized.

375
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Speaker 1: And so I think what people should understand from your story,

376
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Speaker 1: and what's happening with all these anti trans bills targeting

377
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Speaker 1: children is that it is fostering an environment where we're

378
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: going to be even more stigmatized, normal hate, and then

379
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: like everybody policing you and trying to make you feel other.

380
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 2: First of all, it's creating mountains Anamol hills, as my

381
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: third grade teacher would always say, and it's exactly what

382
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: you said, fostering an environment of hatreots, and it's normalizing hate,

383
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 2: which is something that I don't think anyone in America

384
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: is a stranger to, especially after our last commander in chief.

385
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: And that's what that was such a difficult time for me,

386
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: the twenty sixteen election, because it was so much of

387
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: what I had grown up with, and it was and

388
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: I saw it happening all over again. It was I

389
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: see how people follow the leader, and it's so important

390
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: that our leaders and our policymakers and our legislators set

391
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 2: good examples and lead with compassion and empathy. And seeing

392
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 2: what they're doing now is so first of all disgraceful.

393
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 2: Second of all, just I don't understand how we have

394
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 2: not set a higher bar for our country. But that's

395
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: another conversation.

396
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Speaker 1: Well, I think we're just in some major backlash against

397
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: transvisibility right now, we're being scapegoaded. This is a good

398
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,160
Speaker 1: time to take a little break.

399
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back.

400
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk about the lawsuit that

401
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: you and your family filed against the school and eventually won.

402
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: And it's important to note that this is the first

403
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: time that court decided that it was a violation of

404
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: human rights law to ban a trans person from the

405
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: bathroom that they felt like they could use. And this

406
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: happened in Maine, and this case was decided in twenty thirteen.

407
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: So did you start the lawsuit in two thousand and

408
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: seven and then it finally because you were this is year.

409
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 2: This started in two thousand eight or two thousand and nine.

410
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 2: I think we filed the suit after sixth grade because

411
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 2: we continued trying to work with the school. And when

412
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: I went into middle school, they gave me a bodyguard

413
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: and they called it the Eyes On program, And what

414
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: that was was a grown adult following me around from

415
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: class to class, basically there to make sure that I

416
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 2: used the staff bathroom, to make sure that I didn't

417
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 2: go in the girls bathroom. And they said it was

418
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: for my safety, and of course I knew that that

419
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: was a crop as ship. But if I went up

420
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom, the teacher would stop me

421
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: at the door and tell me to wait for whoever

422
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: was following me that day, because it was always different.

423
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: Can't pause, Nicole, You're talking about this so matter of factly.

424
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: I have to, and I guess this is just your life.

425
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of horrified. I'm listening and I'm like,

426
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 1: what the fuck? Like you have a bodyguard for your

427
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: own protection. It just makes me think about, like, you know,

428
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: the way they house trans people in prison in solitary

429
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: confinement for our own protection.

430
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, always for our own protection allegedly.

431
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had an an adult follow you around

432
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: from class to class allegedly for your own protection. But

433
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: I will ultimately to make sure that you didn't use

434
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: the girl's bathroom in middle school? Was this all through?

435
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: Was your middle school three years? Like six seven eighth

436
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 1: grade or three years?

437
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: This was only through sixth grade because after we left, Okay,

438
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 2: we only did that one year. And the straw that

439
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: broke the camel's back for that was I was going

440
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: to go on this outing trip with all of my friends.

441
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: We were all in this outing club and we were

442
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: going to go white water rafting and there was an

443
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: overnight camping trip and I was so excited. All of

444
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: my friends were going, and they said, of course Nicole

445
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 2: can come. She's a member of the club. She cannot

446
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: stay in a tent with the girls, though, she has

447
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: to stay in a tent by herself or with her parents.

448
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: And again, these are all the girls that I've had

449
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: sleepovers with. And so we said, okay, well, what if

450
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: we get a signed permission slips from I mean, my

451
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: parents were at that school every day trying to come

452
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: up with solutions. What if we got to signed permission

453
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: slip from all of the parents of all of the

454
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: kids going, the boys and the girls saying that they're

455
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 2: okay with it. Oh no, no, no, no, that can't work.

456
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: That can never work. Ohuse, that's not possible. They would

457
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: call ahead anywhere that we went on a field trip

458
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 2: and say, hey, we have this student who looks like

459
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 2: a girl. Don't let her use the girls bathroom at

460
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: your facilities. And at that point we just realized we're

461
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: never going to get back to where we were. This

462
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: is never going to work again. So my mom packed

463
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: us up, and my brother and my mom and I

464
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: moved two hours south from Orno to Portland two and

465
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: a half actually, and in Maine, important Maine, and my

466
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: dad stayed behind so he could keep his job at

467
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: the university. And we only saw our dad on weekends

468
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: from then through the rest of high school. So we

469
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: never lived with our dad again.

470
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: And so you started over at a new school, and

471
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: then where did you go? Stealth at the new school.

472
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: Went still at the new school, and that's when we

473
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: filed the lawsuit. And the important thing about the lawsuit

474
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: and the reason why we were ruled in favor of

475
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 2: one because it's obviously human rights violation. But two this

476
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: happened in two thousand and seven in Maine. As of

477
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, the main Human Rights Act lifts

478
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 2: gender identity as well as sexual orientation as a protective class. Yeah,

479
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: so the lesson there being half the school known the policy,

480
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: known the law know that they were well within their

481
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: legal right as well as moral right to be doing

482
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: what they were doing, that group would't have had a

483
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: single leg to stand on, and they could, yeah, go ahead,

484
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: fiow your lawsuit. We're doing what the law requires.

485
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the reality right now is that

486
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: there is even more state laws that include gender identity

487
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: and sexual orientation in their human rights law, and all

488
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: of these bands against gender firm and care are a

489
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: violation of that, but they don't care. They don't care,

490
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: and the legislatture is so the judiciary system, I should say,

491
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: so conservative that when these things are challenged in court,

492
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: they think that they can win, and they probably will

493
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, so you won your case. How did

494
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: it feel when you finally got the decision? Maybe to

495
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: climatic because it takes so many years. I remember talking

496
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: to Gavin Graham about it.

497
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, after that point, after.

498
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: All these years, you win the case, It's ruled in

499
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: your favor. How did that make you feel? I remember

500
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: being historic. I remember reading about it, thinking it was

501
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: interesting that you're from Maine and your last name is

502
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: Maine's and just being like really excited. And I remember

503
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: reading a story where you met the governor of Maine

504
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: or something. Is that right?

505
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 2: I met since I met Senator So, I met Senator

506
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: Olympia Snow when she was still in office, and I

507
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: met Susan Collins.

508
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: Be foolshit, I'm just I'm just saying she talks the

509
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: big games.

510
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: When I met with her, and now I'm seeing all

511
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: the stuff she's doing, and I'm like, hmm, interesting.

512
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: She always talks a big game anyway.

513
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, su then you yeah, so I remember, I remember

514
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: when that came down, that was it was so major,

515
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: and I remember it being major, but very much like

516
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: what Gavin said, it was a little antiqlimactic for me

517
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: because at that point I'm a junior in high school

518
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: and my old middle school the superintendent had left because

519
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: he thought he had another job lined up in Massachusetts.

520
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: He didn't, and he quit prematurely, and then the principal

521
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: was fired after changing students' test scores on standardized state tests,

522
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: so both of them were not at the school anymore.

523
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: So it felt a little like, I'm glad, but I

524
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,239
Speaker 2: really wanted to stick it to them. So that was

525
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: for me. I mean, that's just moving petty, but deservingly so.

526
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: But I remember it being fantastic. But the hard part

527
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: about that is similarly to what you were saying about

528
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: the judiciary committees. Even though it's on the books in

529
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: Maine and even though now we set this legal precedent,

530
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: I still hear from kids in Maine and especially more

531
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: rural parts of the state. We're saying, why is this happening? Why?

532
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: And they're doing the same thing they did to me,

533
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: even though being Human Rights Act and my case in

534
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: the State Supreme Court, enforcement is a whole other beast. Yeah,

535
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: and having it on the books is one thing, and

536
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: making sure that people are following the rules, and it

537
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: feels like putting out fires and playing a game of black.

538
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: Homle we've had. I like to remind people that we've

539
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: had laws against racist treatment in this country for a

540
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: very long time, and that doesn't mean that racism went away.

541
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: So there is the project of changing hearts and minds

542
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: that needs to go along with legislative and judicial change.

543
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: So you graduate from high school, you've done this historic thing,

544
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: and then somehow you end up acting. Yeah, and it's

545
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: something that you didn't plan on doing. I reading somewhere,

546
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: and you did a guest spot on what was the

547
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: show Royal Pains? Royal Pains, and then Supergirl comes along,

548
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: which is so iconic, and I was already watching Supergirl

549
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: and I think you came on the second season, fourth,

550
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: fourth season, oh wow, or that far into it had

551
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: you taken acting classes. I always wonder like, did you study?

552
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: How did acting like come to you?

553
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: So for me, acting I think naturally came from my

554
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 2: love of playing dress up. M hm. And for me,

555
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the same for you,

556
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 2: but that was my space where I was able to

557
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: portray characters I related to or saw myself in. I

558
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: was able to wear clothes that I identified with, And

559
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: for my parents that.

560
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: Was like, ohay, he can do that. That's he's just

561
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: playing pretend. It's just not indicative of anything larger and

562
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: more telling of what is to come. But so for me,

563
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: acting just stemtons I think naturally from that. I just

564
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: love playing dress up. I love playing in different sandbox.

565
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love.

566
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: I walk onto a set in an office and I'm like, sorry,

567
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: where are the dragons? I'm sorry, what do you mean?

568
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: No one who's superpowers? What are we doing?

569
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Well? I mean, yeah, I mean Dreamer or Nia? Nia?

570
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: Is that Nia? Now? Dreamer the first trans superhero on television?

571
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: More history. You're a historic young lady. For being twenty

572
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: six years old. You made a lot of history already.

573
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: I just want to play dress up.

574
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: I love it. So what was what was the audition process,

575
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: like I understand that there were several callbacks talk to

576
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: talk to me about like, first of all, how did

577
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: you get into acting? Like how did Royal Pains happen?

578
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: So much luck? Back to back to back to back.

579
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: So I loved acting. I wanted to act. I didn't

580
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: think it was possible being from Maine. It's you know,

581
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: I'm on the complete opposite side of the country from

582
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: where I need to be. I did school theater and

583
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: that was about it. I did some local theater, not

584
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: really not that much. I wasn't taking acting classes. I

585
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: really didn't know what I was doing. And with Royal

586
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: Pains came along. It was one of those situations where

587
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: you know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody in casting,

588
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: and it somehow worked its way up design that they

589
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: were looking for a trans performer with dance experience, and

590
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: I had been doing dance for four years, and so

591
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, you should audition. So I went up

592
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: to the college with my dad and we filmed my

593
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: audition with I filmed opposite the Star Quarterback, which I

594
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: was like, oooh and a good self tape moment.

595
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: I think Royal Pain shot in New York, right in Brooklyn.

596
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: Ye.

597
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: And so then I had two callbacks with producers and

598
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: got that and had an amazing time. And I remember

599
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: being on set and just just being so blown away

600
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: by that experience. And we had simultaneously been in talks

601
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: to turn our story into something. We sold our life

602
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: rights and we were working with producers and they knew

603
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: my now agents got it, and they were saying that

604
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: we're looking for trans talent to represent, and he says, well,

605
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: I just got back from Maine. I just spoke to

606
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: this girl who did an episode of Royal Paints. He

607
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: gotten meter. Next, I think I was in Los Angeles

608
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: for the Glad Awards in twenty sixteen and I met

609
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: with my agents there in the hotel. Loved them and

610
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: they were like, what do you want to do and

611
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I really like Arrow. And then nothing

612
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: for three years. We had a bunch of auditions that

613
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: I was so green, and I then got cast as

614
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: the lead in this indie horror movie called Bits, where

615
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: I was going to play a trans girl who gets

616
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: turned into a vampire and falls in with a group

617
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: of intersectional feminist vampires who's stock Los Angeles. So I

618
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: was like, dope, And so I went and did that

619
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: in May of twenty eighteen and I had one day

620
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: off and they said, hey, can Cole send in another

621
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: silk tape for super Girl? And they said, oh, well,

622
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: no need, She's in Los Angeles, she can go in.

623
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 2: So I went in and I met with Sarah Scheck.

624
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: Would make such a difference when you're in the room anyway,

625
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

626
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 2: It does. I went in and I met with Jessica

627
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: and Robert and Sarah, and the next day they asked

628
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: me to be a Superhero.

629
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And I remember your

630
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: debut on the show and the character coming out as

631
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: trans I love the little the romantic tension between you

632
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: and Brainy that eventually turned into her an actual, you know,

633
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: real romance. That was so beautiful thing on TV. And

634
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: I was just as as an actress who you know,

635
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: four time immunuitated actress Liver and Cox, who's very serious

636
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: about the work, I was like, she's talented, she can act.

637
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: You were so natural and you were so you fit

638
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: in the world so wonderfully, and your emotional flexibility was

639
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: just there, and it just I was just it was

640
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: just I'm going.

641
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: To hold on to that. Thank you.

642
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: No, it was just really exciting. I was like, oh,

643
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: she's she's she's actually good, you know. Like for me,

644
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: it's about the talent. I love. I love talent. I

645
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: love when people are good at what they do. And

646
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: you're just such a natural. And now that you're in

647
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: this world, you've gotten to play Dreamer on the Flash

648
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: and in different iterations of this sort of DC universe,

649
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,959
Speaker 1: which is so great. Have you done a comic con yet?

650
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: I did a couple of comic cons with the show,

651
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: the last one being in twenty nineteen, and then we

652
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: didn't get we didn't get to do one for our

653
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 2: final season because pandemic. Yeah, but yeah, I love comic cons.

654
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: It was so much fun getting to meet people. And

655
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: that's been the craziest thing, getting to see folks reaction

656
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: to Dreamer, not just trans folks, but sif people who

657
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: are saying, this is my favorite character. I love Dreamer,

658
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: I love mea so much. Oh my gosh. Seeing parents

659
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,959
Speaker 2: who love Dreamer, kids who love Dreamer, seeing folks who

660
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: Dreamer made them feel comfortable to come out and to transition.

661
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: The impact of this character is so massive, and it's

662
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: so like that is why representation matters. It changes the

663
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: world and it changes people's lives. And seeing people's reaction

664
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: to Dreamer, seeing people's reaction to me, especially when I

665
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: was first announced at Comic Con in twenty eighteen, they

666
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: announced me at the Supergirl panel and I came out

667
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: on the stage and there was like this the people

668
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: who were cheering and clapping and excited for this new

669
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: trans person.

670
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

671
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: And that was the moment for me, especially after twenty eighteen,

672
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: after everything, with the election, after everything, I was like,

673
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: there is hope. People are good. People want to see

674
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: this progress, and people want to see this change, and

675
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: people want to see everybody's stories and hear different experiences,

676
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: and that was really amazing.

677
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: I've often said, you know, it's the best of times

678
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 1: since the worst of times, because we have like unprecedented

679
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: representation of trans folks in media now, and obviously what

680
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: we're seeing in state legislators, it's a backlash against that.

681
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: But there's so much love and support that that I've gotten,

682
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: that you clearly get that is so inspiring and gives

683
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: me such a sense of hope about the world and

684
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: that folks can see your humanity through your characters and

685
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: through your interviews. Your Ellen interview is so beautiful, and

686
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: I think that it's just a reminder that, like the

687
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: there's so many people out there with so much love

688
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: in their hearts who are open and aren't down with this,

689
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, this attack that's going on. I think that's

690
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: a minority of folks who have this agenda that's really

691
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: not about us. And so we have to stay in

692
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: the love and stay in the commitment to being who

693
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: we are. And even though I have to work really

694
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: hard not to get depressed when I see everything going

695
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: on legislatively, because for me, I'm in a place where

696
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: every like professionally, things wonderful. I'm in love. You seem

697
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: to be in a man on your Instagram, Nate, Nate,

698
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: we love on your Instagram.

699
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 2: Honey, TikTok, thank you TikTok.

700
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: You met on TikTok.

701
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: Yes, because he came up on my for you page

702
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: as like he is definitely for you girls.

703
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: Like the way he came up on your page. And

704
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: then what happened.

705
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: He came up on my for you page like with

706
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 2: a lightsaber shirtless, and I said, m you'll do yeah,

707
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: So I started leaving, like thirsty comments in his video

708
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: and thank goodness for the blue check because that put

709
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: my comments right to the top. And so he saw

710
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: them and he reached out to me on Instagram and said, hey,

711
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: you seem cool. We should be friends. And he tells

712
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: the story so cute because he's like, oh, you know,

713
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: I never thought you know, I just wanted to be

714
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: your friend. I never had any all your motives and

715
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: I was like, I was being a whore. But I'm

716
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 2: glad your motive.

717
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back. We

718
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: are back. So my current boyfriend, my last three boyfriends

719
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: had never dated a trans woman. For me, had he

720
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: thought about dating a trans woman? Dated a trans woman?

721
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: Did he know that you were trans when you messaged him? Like?

722
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: What of that? Because a lot of trans folks out

723
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: there struggle with dating. And I do think I talked

724
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: to my friends who aren't famous who are trans. I

725
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: think we're legitimized as like being on TV in a

726
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: way that makes men a little bit more open dating.

727
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: At least that's my experience.

728
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: I think feels like a spoonful of sugar for me,

729
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: a little bit like, oh she's trans, but she's on TV, Like,

730
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: that's so awful to say, So.

731
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: I think it's different for us. So what did he

732
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: no initially that you were trans? Okay? How did he just?

733
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: Did he google? What? Both?

734
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: So I don't know if he initially knew. I think

735
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: I think he found out naturally just by looking at

736
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: me and talking and reading about me. But he's so

737
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: wonderful and oh god, I hope you get to meet

738
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: him some day because he is so just sort of

739
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 2: like how how we talk about kids, like when they're

740
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: like who cares?

741
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: So it was was there discussion like what was like

742
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: the oh you're trans?

743
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: There wasn't this big talk. It was for him, he

744
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: was It was only ever really just like yeah, you're

745
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: a woman. So and he just it's not a big

746
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: deal to him. And he's now become such an ally

747
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: and such an advocate and he does these amazing videos

748
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 2: on TikTok where you know, he don't get hate comments

749
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: for just being with the transoman my.

750
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: Ex so I was public with like experience that, and

751
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: he was very he was strong and steff In my

752
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: current boyfriend, I'm just I'm keeping him off social media. Yeah,

753
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: there's a part of me that really wants to protect

754
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: my man. Yeah, yeah, does he handle the hate comments

755
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: because like people would comment, oh, you're gay, you know,

756
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: and they would just sort of assume that, and so

757
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: how does he deal with that?

758
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: Well, he's worth a weird position. He doesn't really care

759
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: about people saying like, oh, you're gay. People thought he

760
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: was gay anyway, because he's you know, for the same

761
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: reason he was on my for you page. He's on

762
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 2: a lot of gay men's for you page.

763
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, he does fitness, like right, he's like a fitness do.

764
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: He does fitness, he does cosplay, he does these really

765
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: sexy like hot dude first traps.

766
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: So of course gay man are.

767
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 2: He's very famous with the gays. We were in Toronto

768
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: recently and we went to Woodies, a drag bar, and

769
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: this girl saw him and we were also with our

770
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: friend Shane, and they're both very big on TikTok and

771
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: this girl saw them screaming, screaming like, oh my god,

772
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: I have to get a picture with you. And I

773
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: kind of get like shoved out of the way, and

774
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: I was like, my boyfriend's more gay famous than I am.

775
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: My stray boyfriend's margay famous than I am. What the fuck?

776
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 4: But no, so he doesn't really care, and when he

777
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 4: does respond, he responds with like these beautifully articulated videos

778
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 4: where he's just like.

779
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: Why is this a problem? I love her, she loves me.

780
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: I see her and I see a woman. I am

781
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: not bothered by anything else. And I've been very fortunate

782
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: that my relationships have been that way. My partner before Nate,

783
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: when I was in college, I remember he was fine

784
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: with it, didn't have a problem. This was scary, though.

785
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: I was going to meet his parents for the first time.

786
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: Oh that's so stressful, girl.

787
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: It gets worse.

788
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: I've met many parents and they end up loving me,

789
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: and I'm great with parents, but it's so stressful.

790
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: I just met Nate's mom and I was like, moms

791
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: love me. I'm not worried. If you're listening, hey, Cheryl,

792
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: how you doing. So I was going to meet the

793
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 2: boy's parents and we are halfway there on the highway

794
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: and he looks over at me and he says, I

795
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: have to tell you something. My parents are Trump supporters,

796
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: and they don't know your.

797
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: Trans on the way to meet them.

798
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 2: On the way to meet them, cut to me doing

799
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: a very real costs versus risk benefit analysis in my head,

800
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: Am I more likely to die going to this house

801
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 2: or if I tuck and roll going seventy on the highway.

802
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean you don't have to necessarily disclose that

803
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: you're trans.

804
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: Oh we did not. Oh, we did not. This was

805
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 2: just after the twenty sixteen election. They left Fox News

806
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: on in the background while we ate dinner, just talking

807
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: about how Trump had removed the federal protections for trans

808
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: people and talking about how great that was on the TV.

809
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: As I'm sitting there next to my boyfriend and his

810
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: parents and I'm like, I'm gonna die in this fucking house.

811
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: I'm gonna fucking die in the South.

812
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: It's like the transversion of get Out, which is the

813
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: transversion of get out. Oh.

814
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: They ended up loving this.

815
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Wow did they find out that you disclosed?

816
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: And I had conversations with his mom. Her big hang

817
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: up was sports, and she was very but what about fairness?

818
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 2: What about this? What about that one? And I was like, okay,

819
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: first of all, pay women athletes the same, then come

820
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 2: to me and talk about fairness. Second, I said, listen,

821
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: I did sports in school. And let me tell you,

822
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating when I said I was the absolute

823
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: worst on the team, consistent bench warmer. It was not

824
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: a matter of having an advantage against anybody else. It

825
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: was a matter of trying to get me any kind

826
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: of advantage because this poor girl was suffering so much.

827
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: There's so many misconceptions about trans folks, and you know,

828
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with Chase Stangio from acl Ung's

829
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: on last season of the podcast, and we talked about

830
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: how I find it really interesting that as they're trying

831
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: to ban gender firming care for kids, they also want

832
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: to ban us from sports. And like the advantage if

833
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: there is an advantage that trans people have, and there's

834
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: always advantages in sports, it happens with puberty. So for

835
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: those people who have access and want to do puberty blockers,

836
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: then all the sort of physical advantages don't happen. And

837
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: then I'm looking at you and you're so gorgeous, and like,

838
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: so much of transition as an adult is like trying

839
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: to reverse what happens in puberty, the masculinizing that happens

840
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: in puberty. And if you can spare a trans child that,

841
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: if they want to, if the parents, if it's recommended

842
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: with your doctor, whatever, I think that's a wonderful thing. Ultimately,

843
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: I think it's not anybody's business but the parents, the child,

844
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: and the doctor. Okay, thank you very I'm so jealous

845
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: of people who got to like not I'm puberty was

846
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: so traumatizing for me. I'm fifty years old, so this

847
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: was years ago. And if I had known and there

848
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: was access to go through puberty as a girl, like,

849
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: what a difference that would have made in my life.

850
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: You know, it all boils back down to trying to

851
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: erase us from public existence. They're saying, oh, you can't

852
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 2: be in sports because you have an advantage, and we say, okay, well,

853
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: if we can get the care when we want to,

854
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 2: that advantage which really doesn't exist in the first place,

855
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: but just entertaining you, this hypothetical advantage, imagine this imagined

856
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: advantage one even exists, if we can get the healthcare

857
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: that we want before puberty. Oh, well, you can't do

858
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: that because you're clearly being groomed and you have to

859
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: wait until you're an adult. Okay, well, then can I

860
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 2: at least use the girl's bathroom? No, you can't, because

861
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: you're a man. You went through mail puberty, you were

862
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: raised as a man, Okay, well, can I transition younger?

863
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. So there's no way for trans people to

864
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: exist in their world. It only boils down to they

865
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: just don't want us to exist, and that ship has

866
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: fucking sailed.

867
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: But the beautiful thing is we do. We're here, Yeah,

868
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: we are. So many of us are thriving, so many

869
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: of us are struggling, and I think it's important to acknowledge, like,

870
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, the wonderful privilege that we have. Most trans

871
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: people don't have just access to any kind of gender

872
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: affirming care, is expensive.

873
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: Live in a state where we have right yeah.

874
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, you know, the battle continues, their journey continues.

875
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: But I think it's wonderful for folks to see when

876
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: we're thriving, to see that it is possible to be healthy, happy, successful, professionally,

877
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: in love all the things. You know, that it's possible

878
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: to have, be trans and have a life. And it's

879
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: so important that we live our lives, be in our joy,

880
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: show the world that there is joy in the face

881
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: of all of this horrible stuff. What else do you

882
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: want to say about all these laws, about the state

883
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: of things? What else do you want to say to

884
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: the world, to other transfer are just anybody listening out

885
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: there so much.

886
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: First of all, I want people to start standing with

887
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 2: trans folks. I think that it's very easy for our

888
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: trauma to be left up to us because we are

889
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: such a small community. We need to see the same

890
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: kind of outrage and the same kind of support behind

891
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: every other movement throughout history that we've seen because trans

892
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: people have been right there at the front lines whenever

893
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: it comes to civil rights, whenever it comes to human decency,

894
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: whenever it comes to fighting bigotry and fighting hatred. And

895
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 2: we need to see all of those communities standing with

896
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: trans people now because it affects all of us.

897
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: And it's all connected. It's all connected. You know, when

898
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: I was on MSNBC a few weeks ago, it was

899
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: important for me to like acknowledge that as we see

900
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: this rise in anti Semitism, that you know, the Nazi

901
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: is one of the first things they did was burn

902
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: Magnus Hirschfel's Clinic for Human Sexuality. So it's rise in

903
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: anti semitism. We should be careful to not like have

904
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: sea history repeating right now as we fight anti semitism,

905
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: as we need to be fighting transphobia, racism, all of

906
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: the things.

907
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: All connected because it all shares the same route of

908
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 2: a group of people thinking that they are inherently better

909
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: than somebody else for some arbitrary reason that nobody can control.

910
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: I've been talking a lot about this with my therapist,

911
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: and I think that it's important that while we can

912
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: recognize the differences in our histories and our experiences and

913
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: say it has not been the same for me as

914
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: it has been for you, I can never possibly imagine

915
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: what it's been like to be a Jewish person living

916
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: in America, to be a Black person living in America.

917
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: But I understand that bigotry and hatred sucks for me,

918
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure it sucks for you too. So

919
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 2: let's I think we all need to start working together

920
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: and start marching and standing together rather than I think

921
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of squaw amongst ourselves, and there's a

922
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: lot of division, and since the dawn of time, you know,

923
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: they have been dividing and conquering. But there's more of

924
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: us who don't fit into this mythical norm of being

925
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: the straight white sis Christian, but the right kind of Christian,

926
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: not this kind, not that kind, like this this mythical

927
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: idea of what is normal. Yeah, the majority of us

928
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 2: don't fit into that, and we all need to link

929
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 2: up and become that bigger, scarier animal and say we

930
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: reject this. We reject hatred in any form, We reject

931
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: bigotry in any form, because it was bad when it

932
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 2: happened to us, it was bad when it happened to you.

933
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: It's always fucking bad.

934
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. That was beautiful. Oh

935
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: So I like to end every podcast that the question

936
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: what else is true? It comes from my therapy and

937
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: the idea of both. And even when we are struggling,

938
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: even when there's something difficult for us, that is true,

939
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: and we can focus on that, But something else is

940
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: true as well. And if we focus on that other

941
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 1: thing that's true, that thing that's affirming, that's positive, that's

942
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: a resource that can shift our nervous systems, that can

943
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: shift our awareness, and he can help us get through.

944
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: So for you today, Nicole mains what else is true?

945
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: I'm having fun. I'm having a lot of fun. I

946
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: have admired you for a very long time, so it's

947
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: very exciting for me to finally get to be able

948
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 2: to talk to you.

949
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: Thank you.

950
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 2: I am writing comic books. I know, I am.

951
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: You cant even get to talk about that. That's incredible,

952
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: so much fun, so much fun. I love it.

953
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: I'm in love, like I said, playing video games every

954
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 2: night with my boyfriend. Even though he's not here. We're

955
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: spending time together.

956
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: What video games? What any particular game you like?

957
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: We're big into Overwatch too right now. He's really good

958
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 2: at it. I'm only okay, but I'm reading my favorite

959
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: book series to him. I'm showing him shows for my

960
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: childhood that I like that he's seeing for the first time.

961
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of fun. And I just wrapped

962
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: season two of Yellow Jackets, which was so much fun.

963
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: I'm having a plast.

964
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: I interviewed Melanie Landscape from my show. If we're being honest,

965
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: she's so amazing.

966
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: I love her so much. I love all of them

967
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 2: so much. So I'm having a really good time. So

968
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 2: that's what I'm focusing on as all of this is happening.

969
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 2: As I am in the throes of depression and feeling

970
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: defeated so often every time I open my phone, I

971
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: feel like it's a punch to the gut. I'm still

972
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 2: having fun.

973
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: Things like a lot of your dreams have come true

974
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: and are coming true.

975
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, went out. I'm getting a little nervous.

976
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: You just make new dreams, that's what you do.

977
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

978
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nicole Maynes. You're a treasure and

979
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: we'll have to do it again. I would love to

980
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: Nicole Mains. Oh wow. So much of what happened in

981
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: her childhood just I find horrifying and traumatizing, and what

982
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: a gift that she's come out of it so happy.

983
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: And I think that has to be attributed to therapy.

984
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: We love therapy and to loving parents. I just love

985
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: hearing about her parents being there and supporting her. With

986
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: that level of support, you can raise happy, healthy, trans kids.

987
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: And I really believe that what kids need more than

988
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 1: anything else is to know that they are deeply and

989
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: profoundly loved, cared for, and protected. And what I hear

990
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: in the cold story are parents who deeply loved her,

991
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: cared for her, and protected her. And certainly everyone isn't living,

992
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: you know, this fairy tale life almost that Nicole is living.

993
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: But she's just such a wonderful light. She gives me

994
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: so much hope for young people. Her boyfriend and how

995
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: open he is gives me hope for like men who

996
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: find themselves attracted to trans women. And I hope that

997
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: you've been inspired by this conversation and it's made you

998
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: think about all those struggles that she went through as

999
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: a kid, and she's come out with such resilience and

1000
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: such confidence. It's just awesome. Thank you so much for

1001
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: listening to The Liver and Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,

1002
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me

1003
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok Laverne Cox and on Facebook

1004
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in

1005
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of

1006
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from

1007
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

1008
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.