WEBVTT - Snuff Films: Fact and Fiction 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.880 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.520 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:29.440 my name is Noah. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.640 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.879 super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.559 are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.519 they don't want you to know. Fellas, this is going 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.479 to be darkwater, not appropriate for all audiences. Maybe we 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.159 start this way as where all film buffs. What is 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.760 the most disturbing film you've ever seen, not just in 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.640 terms of like bad or disappointing, but something that genuinely 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:00.960 bothers haunted. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.680 Eight millimeter with Nicholas Cage. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:04.679 I'm kidding, it's not that disturbing. 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.280 I scared the crap out of me when I was 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.039 a kid, and it was my first introduction to snuff films. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.240 But another one that is very recent that I think 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.680 I've pitched to y'all before is an incredible Canadian French 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:21.199 Canadian film called Red Rooms that absolutely modernizes the idea 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.319 of snuff films and takes it to the dark Web, 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.840 and the central plot revolves around a trial of an 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.760 individual who is accused of creating and selling these snuff 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.280 films on the dark web, and there it's actually a 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.840 real internet parlance. It's called red room films. And I 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.840 highly recommend this film. It's not violent, everything happens off screen, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.880 but that does not make it any less disturbing. It's 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.600 one of the truly most chilling films I've ever seen. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.880 And Matt, what's something a film you saw that haunted 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.680 or disturbed or stays with you in a bad way? 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.480 Are you talking about just fictional movies, any. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.560 Piece of media that you can see, whether it be 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.240 any moving camera footage. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.680 I think it's well, I don't know. I don't know 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.280 if it's something we're going to talk about today. But 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:15.160 the nine minutes twenty six seconds of George Floyd, like 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:20.480 just like watching that absolutely and then being compelled to 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.000 watch it not only because you want to experience like 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.720 the thing in some kind of solidarity, but also because 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.440 you can't look away. And also, I mean, there's. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.840 Just it's a state sponsored murder. 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.560 Yeah, I think there's something too that. But to sit 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.960 there and actually watch it for the length of it. 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.120 Yeah, y'all will also, I'm sure recall when there were 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.560 a lot of you know, decapitation videos floating around from 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.919 you know, terrorist groups and the cartel. Yeah, cartels, et cetera. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.160 That was there was certainly a moment for that as well. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.200 It continues, sure does. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.560 But I just remember a time where it was like, wow, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.680 this is just out there and you know. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.799 Aailable Well, those are the days of live leak. 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:09.320 That's exactly right, and gore forums, which also continued today. 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.360 Films that I saw that disturb me that were fictional 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.720 are things like a Serbian film Come and see Requiem 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.800 for a Dream. As you guys know, I had a 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.000 terribly doomed double date to see that film without knowing 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.720 what we were getting into. We went to Applebee's afterwards, 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.120 which made the entire experience somehow more surreal and disturbing. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.160 The or it was a TGI Fridays. But the real 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:42.240 life footage that we see all over the world, executions, assassinations, etc. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.600 The experts will tell us that those do not count 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.680 for today's purposes. In tonight's episode, which may end up 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.440 being a series, we're exploring the allegations that people, either 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:03.120 as individuals or criminal organizations, have made films, including genuine torture, defilement, 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.800 and murder, for the express purpose of profit. This is 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.520 the fact in fiction surrounding things that are often called 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:11.840 snuff films. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.560 And if anybody did happen to catch that Nicholas Cage 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.040 movie from the nineties eight millimeter, the plot of that 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.160 was this concept of real snuff films and the idea 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.039 that most of them, if not all of them, are faked, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.360 are more like torture porn sort of you know, judged 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.520 up to look as real as possible, kind of flat 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.320 footage flatter exactly. But then, of course the twist of 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.080 that is that he is searching for the creators of 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.320 a potential real snuff film. 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.320 Please be aware, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode or episodes 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.640 on this genre may not be appropriate for all listeners. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.440 We're gonna pause for a word from our sponsors, and 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.960 then we'll dive into how snuff films got into the zeitgeist. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:09.640 Here are the facts, all right, we're film motion picture nerds, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.520 and you guys know way more than I do about 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.680 most things. So it's correct that film has been around 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.800 since the late eighteen hundreds, right, But the urban legend 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:25.320 of a snuff film true murder or torture for the 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.880 express purpose of profit, that didn't gain public recognition until 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.400 the nineteen seventy, so way after the invention of film. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:35.600 Is that correct? Absolutely? 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.920 Popular examples would be things like Cannibal Holocaust, which we will. 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.159 Get to a little bit later. 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.160 This idea that some of these genre splatter films were 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.160 potentially real, and even examples of the filmmakers using that 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:55.520 as like a marketing tool, like not curating the cast, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.280 you know, for interviews. Blair Witch Project is another example 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.960 of that, though snuff exactly, but it is I would 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.440 say it occupies a similar space to what we're talking about. 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.680 Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent setup because the rumor is 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:12.920 that there was a clandestine network or multiple networks of 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:18.839 murderers creating films showing in graphic, detailed, genuine homicide, torture 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.760 and defilement. The stories goes that these things had semi 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.719 professional production, They were made like any other film for profit, 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.640 no ideology, no terroristic threats, just monstrous murder for a 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:37.160 secret group of deeply disturbed, well to do customers. And 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.680 it followed the same pattern as other urban legends. Everybody 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.520 had heard of this. People might say they know someone 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.640 who knows someone who encountered one in real life. Yet 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.680 no one, when you drilled down, had seen such a 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.320 film for themselves. And to your earlier points, Noll, this 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.880 urban legend, especially in the United States, gained huge prominence 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.800 on January sixteenth, nineteen seventy six, with the release of 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:10.960 a film called Snuff, which, by the way, no offense. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.160 I'm not Ciscolm or Ebert, but I think it's a skip. 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.440 There are other things to watch, for sure. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.520 And it is based loosely on the Manson murders of 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.200 nineteen sixty nine, Cellow Drive and all of that more 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.560 recently dramatized to frankly with pretty hilarious results, and once 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.840 upon a time in Hollywood the kind of fictionalized alternate 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.520 reality version of that. But that loomed large in the zeitgeist, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.560 in the public consciousness, and this was capitalizing on that. 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.840 Snuff is what you would call a splatter film, a 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.960 genre that is still alive and kicking today. It is 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.720 a you know, you could argue that the terrifier movies 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.360 are splatter films. The whole point is to be as 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:57.080 prurient and despicable and reveling in unpleasantness, torture, murder, and death. 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.880 That is the That is the feature, not the bug. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:01.000 Hmmm. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.560 Yeah, I like that point in this film to give 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.560 you a sense of the plot as it originally stands. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.800 There is an actor named Terry London, that's the character. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.240 She is pregnant, and she and her producer and some 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:20.280 friends visit an unnamed South American country. They run a foul. 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.360 This is the Manson part. They run a foul of 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:28.960 a guy named Satan, and Satan learns a female biker cult. Yeah, 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.360 the colt stalks and murders the character Terry London along 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.680 with her friends. It's gruesome, but it is not particularly 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:42.000 unusual for its genre until the very end. In the 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.040 last few minutes, the film breaks the fourth wall and 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:46.360 the camera pulls away. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.520 A man who appears to be the director like you're 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.400 seeing behind the scenes, starts to flirt with a female 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.439 crew member. They begin to get into a little heavy 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.920 petting as the crew continues filming, and then suddenly think 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.480 take an incredibly violent term. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.760 So, with the assistance of the rest of the crew, 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:11.400 this guy who appears to be the director proceeds to torture, murder, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.440 and then disembowel the woman who was just kissing. The 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:21.160 crew keeps filming, and so Snuff ends abruptly and it 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.160 looks as though the camera ran out of film stock. 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:29.600 This was enormously controversial, but there's more to the story 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.160 because Snuff gained attention for its marketing campaign. Its marketing 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.720 campaign is a conspiracy. It blurs the line between fact 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.400 and fiction. A predecessor, we could argue, in some ways 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.920 to the Blair Witch project of nineteen ninety nine, which 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.800 we talk about a little bit in an earlier episode 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.480 of Ridiculous History with our pal, the journalist and author 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:56.920 Ross Benisch. So the story behind this behind Snuff is 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:02.280 that a guy named Alan Shackleton, who is I'll say it, 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.720 in my opinion, he's kind of a sleeze bag. He 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:09.560 was associated with sexploitation films and very low genre stuff 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.440 we could call it. He is a producer at the 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:17.880 time he buys the distribution rights for this again fictional film, Snuff, 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.600 and he has also earlier read some articles in the 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:27.560 newspapers about rumors of genuine snuff films being created in 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:33.439 South America. Again, our definition being films made with real murder, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.680 purely for commercial profit, not for ideological stuff, not for 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:43.600 sexual gratification. So Shackleton reads this and it inspires him 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.440 in a very dark way. He changes the ending of 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.680 the film without the original director's knowledge. He adds that 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.679 scene that Noel's describing there, and he sets out on 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:59.120 this marketing campaign that purposely implies the homicide and torture 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.439 depicted on are real. They're very ambiguous about it, but 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.440 they're leaning into it. The film bore a tagline when 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.440 it released it was this. 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.880 The film that could only be made in South America, 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:13.400 where life is cheap. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.440 And Shackleton goes on to, as you mentioned, remove the 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.880 credits from the film to add to the mystery, and then, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.040 in a Brene style thing, he hires fake protesters to 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.840 picket outside the theaters showing snuff. It starts as a 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:38.160 publicity stunt, and he is astounded that shortly thereafter actual 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.160 protesters begin picketing as well, people who are not in 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.280 on the grift. It goes viral, everyone from media pundits 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.479 to politicians, journalists, concerned citizens groups. They weigh in obviously 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.240 Thankfully they're all condemning the film, but it doesn't take 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.760 too long for journalists to figure out this is a 0:11:58.800 --> 0:11:59.480 work of fiction. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.320 And I mentioned earlier, I just want to double back 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.440 really quickly. Cannibal Holocaust is another example of almost the 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.959 same ploy and I would argue it's probably inspired by 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.040 that because this came out in nineteen eighty. It's an 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:15.880 Italian splatter film directed by Ruguero Diodato, and it was 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.800 so controversial, not only because of the graphic violence and 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.520 frankly xenophobic. With the time, maybe wasn't as much of 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.280 an issue, but it certainly didn't age well because of 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.880 the way it treats indigenous people as like brutal, you know, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:37.000 body devouring maniacs, Inferno and those were very much inspired 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.200 by Cannibal Holocaust, But when they did the marketing for it, 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.760 they really leaned into this idea that it was real 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.080 and that the violence depicted in it was genuine and 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.719 did not have any of the actors participate in any 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.400 of the marketing. And it was so controversial that I 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.160 believe there was a lawsuit of some kind of there 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.640 was legal action being threatened against the filmmaker to the 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.760 point where he had to reveal that these people were 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.079 in fact alive show proof of life to the authorities. 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.600 So fascinating stuff. They didn't actually brutally kill a turtle though, 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.520 So that did happen, and it's really gross, unclean. 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.480 And the water buffalo in Apocalypse Now was also killed 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:22.800 on camera. This is another thing that echoes the pattern 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.560 we see in larger urban legends without getting to meta. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.480 If we go back to Shackleton, we'll see that he 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:35.000 purposely made ominous and cryptic statements and interviews. He was 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.640 asked in Variety amid the controversy about the film stuff, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.240 whether the murder at the very end is real, and 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.880 he simply responded, if the murder was real, I'd be 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.640 a fool to admit it. If it is not real, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.920 I'd be a fool to admit it. Can't buy this 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.120 kind of publicity, right, That's what he's thinking, man, And 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:59.520 so there's this public outcry that triggers an investigation by 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.800 the authority. The DA of the time in New York's 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.600 district is guidamed Robert Morgenthau, and he dives in. He 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.880 concludes the violence is fake, and he like, like we 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.800 were talking about with a cannibal holocaust. He is able 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.240 to confirm with local authorities in South America that the 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.240 actor who appears to be murdered, tortured, dismembered has been 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.560 found by local police, has been verified to be alive 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.200 and well. And Morgenthau comes out and says, look, I 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:36.240 don't see anything qualifying for criminal prosecution. This doesn't count 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:41.080 as pornography. The marketing is misleading, but it doesn't count 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.520 as consumer fraud. And then he goes on and he 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.560 says essentially that he finds the whole thing pretty reprehensible, 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.280 pretty icky, And he notes a serious concern which we 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.200 see echoed today, said, you know, even as a work 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.600 of fiction, this film might encourage folks to commit real 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.920 life violence against women. And look, we get it. This 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.600 might sound like ancient history nineteen seventy six, almost half 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:13.440 a century ago, but the public's morbid fascination with the 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.640 urban legend of snuff films continues. So maybe now we 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.080 try to separate some disturbing fact from fiction. Let's ask ourselves, 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.200 are there real snuff films? Is someone out there committee 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.360 murder on film purely for profit? 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:31.960 We'll find out after a quick word from our sponsor. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.600 Here's where it gets crazy. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:46.240 Did you guys see the voicemail about this person, Lucifer Valentine. 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:52.400 This is another another filmmaker from the early aughts, I 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:57.360 think that created one of these disgusting films. It's got 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:02.600 a horrible name to it, slaughtered Dolls. It just looks 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:06.720 horrifying as some somebody called in, Anu called in and 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.720 let us know about it. And it's another one of 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.840 these things that is it is meant to look real, 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.880 almost like found a footage of someone who is being 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:21.520 kept alive and tortured and forced to do things, horrible things, 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.640 And there are a lot of questions about who this 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.840 person was, and it's maybe it's a story for another day, 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.040 but it's just it's someone who was trying to follow 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.600 in the footsteps of a thing like we just talked 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.000 about snuff, right, who is trying to create something that 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.800 it gets buzzed because it seems like it might actually 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.040 be real. And some of this stuff depicted on it 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.480 is real, but not the maybe not the actual death part, 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.200 but the stuff, the degradation stuff, yeah, the horrible things 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:53.760 that lead up to it. So it just, you know, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.560 it seems as though there's more of that out there, 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.840 especially when you think about movies like Hostile that became 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:01.160 so popular. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.120 I don't care for torture. I don't either, you know 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.600 what I mean. If it's not supernatural, then why am 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:06.159 I watching it? 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.159 I just as I get a little older, just like, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.760 really mean spirited stuff like that just kind of I 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.480 just can't do it. It does remind me as well 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.800 of nineteen eighties splatter genre series of films called the 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.600 Guinea Pig films, one of which is called Flower of 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.199 Flesh and Blood and it is literally just a camera 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.679 single shot view of a guy dressed up as a 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:32.199 samurai dissecting a woman who is alive and she's just 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.880 like you know, on this table. And there are others 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.399 very much in the Yeah, a lot of weird stuff 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:43.680 too in the Southeastern Asian sphere in East Asians. Apparently, 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.000 Charlie Sheen caught a glimpse of this film at a 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.280 party or something in Hollywood, and he contacted the authorities 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.160 because he thought what he was seeing was very, very real. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:54.680 Jeez. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.840 Well, I guess what it shows us ultimately is that 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.120 there is an appetite for this kind of thing, whether 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.720 or not it's actually an appetite to watch true death. Right, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:10.720 there are enough people. Hostile was a really popular movie 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.480 and there were sequels made, and it was that thing 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.320 we're describing where it just watching people die. 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.320 Right. There's a reason I've said before on the show, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.120 there's a reason people slow down at car accidents. Yeah, 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.320 they want to see bad things happen at or remove 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.400 or to other people. Maybe the answer to this conspiracy 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.200 or this urban legend of snuff films. It really hinges 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.400 on definition. The horror magazine Fangoria. Did you guys ever 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.800 read Fangoria? I always flip. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.440 Through it when I go through a magazine store of 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.800 Barnes and Noble or something like that. It's always interesting, 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:46.680 interesting photo layouts, for sure. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.560 I had a subscription. Nice Yeah, oh yeah. They they 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.920 describe snuff films probably with the best definition. A while 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.800 ago they said a stuff film is a film in 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.520 which a person is killed on camera. Death is premeditated 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.960 with the purpose of being filmed in order to make money. 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.399 And we'll go back to that distinction again and again. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.240 They continue, oftentimes there is a sexual aspect to the murder, 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:16.320 either on film or that the final project is purportedly 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.960 used for some sort of sexual ratification. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.439 And I think that distinction is really important because your 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.480 mind might immediately pop to something like the Faces of 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:30.160 Death series, which are, if I'm not mistaken, genuine footage 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:35.679 of car crashes and you know, people dying under horrific circumstances. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.200 But they are not manufactured for the purposes of the film. 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.520 They just are caught and then put together in this 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.080 macabre kind of collection. 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:50.520 Yeah, they're compiled. The perpetrators did not commit the acts 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:55.680 that are being depicted. These are executions, accidents, assassinations. So yeah, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.320 they're real murders, they are genuine acts of violence on film. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.800 They're a ton of examples. Like you said, in many 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.639 cases the deaths caught on tape maybe accidental, or in 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.520 the case of terrorist videos, the footage is made to 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.520 fulfill an ideology rather than to sell something on the 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.520 dark web. In the case of murderers and some serial killers, 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:24.480 films are made entirely for one's own personal interest, right, 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.760 that's a dark pause interest. But this is I mean, 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.639 this is what causes fact checking sites like our pals 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.760 at Snopes to say there has never been a verified 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.240 example of a genuine commercially produced snuff film. So if 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.000 you're looking for a snuff film example, or indeed an industry, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.040 Snopes argues, you will not find it because it simply 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:48.200 does not exist. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.760 Well, how some of those decapitation type videos we're talking about, 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:57.680 political killings, executions, those don't qualify because they're not done 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.359 for that specific purpose. They're done for at end. You 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.040 know they're done for political reasons. 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:09.120 I just imagine the depths of things that are accessible, 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.280 you know, with the onion router and other things. The 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:18.400 depths of stuff that exists online that we can't all access, right, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.119 that there are passwords for and all that other stuff. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.760 I don't know how you can say there isn't an industry, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:26.840 because I don't know how we have found it. 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:29.480 Right. This is the thing, you know, And I'm glad 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.119 you brought this up because this is why I, personally, 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.280 with great respect, disagree with snoops. That may have been 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.080 true in the past. Snuff films may have been an 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.320 urban legend in times gone. However, the economy of scale, 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:49.720 combined with technological innovation, means that the once expensive film equipment, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:55.960 the once expensive monopolized distribution roots are no longer a barrier. 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.400 Stuff is more readily available, cheaper and easier to use 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:01.800 than ever before. 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.639 Well, even in eight millimeter, that's it's an entirely film 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.399 based process. It's an entirely like the collectors have to 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.639 have projectors, you know. It's like a very niche kind 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.919 of thing the way it's depicted, But it's literally titled 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.600 a million percent and that is of course the grade 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.040 of a film that's used for more kind of low grade, 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.720 kind of trashy type films as opposed to sixteen or 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.520 thirty two millimeter. But once again, I can't recommend Red 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.119 Rooms enough because Matt, it delves into everything you're talking about, 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.359 the password protection aspect of it, the using crypto to 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.280 pay for it, aspects of it, what types of folks 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.720 are in these chats, how does it work if you 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.280 win the auction, how do you get verified? 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:43.240 All of that stuff. 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.120 And it is chilling and seemingly as accurate a depiction 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.199 of this kind of world as could possibly be. 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.359 Yeah, but it does make me think about the days 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.600 of VHS, the days when if you had, you know, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.679 a cassette player and you had something to record that 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:05.240 on and handicam and you could hand off tapes totally. 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:06.200 It wouldn't be. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.840 That of entry in early days of hand h camp quarters. 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:12.560 Yeah, time, that's what I'm saying. 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.960 I'm just imagining. I think where I would agree with 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.360 Snopes is that there's not there could not be some massive, 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:23.960 massive industry like this, right. 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:29.400 It would be underground really probably regionally dependent, maybe backpage 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.760 ad kind of stuff at that point, before social media. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.880 Because what we've seen now with technological innovation is this, 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.480 I think it's important for us to make the positive point. 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:44.240 There is an amazing renaissance of independent film and creators, 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.240 people who could once upon a time never have had 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.600 a voice, right to have a platform to have their 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.960 story told. Now they can distribute work all over the world. 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.360 We're a huge fan of creators. All in all, that's 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:00.240 a pretty swell time to be a fillm nerd. Yet 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:04.320 technology has no moral compass, and so along with all 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:08.320 that great stuff that is coming from these new, frankly 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:13.160 superhuman abilities, there's a dangerous increasing opportunity for very messed 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:17.520 up people to do very evil, unclean things and then 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.800 capture it on film. This is a dark golden age 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:26.560 for violent, genuine depictions of murder and torture and all 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:31.400 sorts of unimaginable depravity. I mean online feeds alone. They've 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:36.880 long hosted death footage, terror propaganda, cartel murders, homicides captured 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:41.680 on closed circuit television and then propagated, but those typically 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:46.159 are for propaganda, intimidation and documentation, not for direct retail. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.080 Well, and then you have stuff that's like approaching this 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:52.280 kind of thing, like I think we've talked about mccamee Manner, 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.639