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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Fellas, this is going

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Speaker 3: to be darkwater, not appropriate for all audiences. Maybe we

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Speaker 3: start this way as where all film buffs. What is

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Speaker 3: the most disturbing film you've ever seen, not just in

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Speaker 3: terms of like bad or disappointing, but something that genuinely

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Speaker 3: bothers haunted.

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Speaker 4: Eight millimeter with Nicholas Cage.

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Speaker 3: I'm kidding, it's not that disturbing.

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Speaker 4: I scared the crap out of me when I was

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Speaker 4: a kid, and it was my first introduction to snuff films.

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Speaker 4: But another one that is very recent that I think

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Speaker 4: I've pitched to y'all before is an incredible Canadian French

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Speaker 4: Canadian film called Red Rooms that absolutely modernizes the idea

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Speaker 4: of snuff films and takes it to the dark Web,

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Speaker 4: and the central plot revolves around a trial of an

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Speaker 4: individual who is accused of creating and selling these snuff

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Speaker 4: films on the dark web, and there it's actually a

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Speaker 4: real internet parlance. It's called red room films. And I

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Speaker 4: highly recommend this film. It's not violent, everything happens off screen,

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Speaker 4: but that does not make it any less disturbing. It's

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Speaker 4: one of the truly most chilling films I've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: And Matt, what's something a film you saw that haunted

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Speaker 3: or disturbed or stays with you in a bad way?

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Speaker 2: Are you talking about just fictional movies, any.

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Speaker 3: Piece of media that you can see, whether it be

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Speaker 3: any moving camera footage.

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Speaker 2: I think it's well, I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's something we're going to talk about today. But

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Speaker 2: the nine minutes twenty six seconds of George Floyd, like

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Speaker 2: just like watching that absolutely and then being compelled to

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Speaker 2: watch it not only because you want to experience like

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Speaker 2: the thing in some kind of solidarity, but also because

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Speaker 2: you can't look away. And also, I mean, there's.

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Speaker 3: Just it's a state sponsored murder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something too that. But to sit

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Speaker 2: there and actually watch it for the length of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, y'all will also, I'm sure recall when there were

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Speaker 4: a lot of you know, decapitation videos floating around from

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Speaker 4: you know, terrorist groups and the cartel. Yeah, cartels, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: That was there was certainly a moment for that as well.

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Speaker 3: It continues, sure does.

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Speaker 4: But I just remember a time where it was like, wow,

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Speaker 4: this is just out there and you know.

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Speaker 2: Aailable Well, those are the days of live leak.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right, and gore forums, which also continued today.

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Speaker 3: Films that I saw that disturb me that were fictional

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Speaker 3: are things like a Serbian film Come and see Requiem

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Speaker 3: for a Dream. As you guys know, I had a

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Speaker 3: terribly doomed double date to see that film without knowing

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Speaker 3: what we were getting into. We went to Applebee's afterwards,

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Speaker 3: which made the entire experience somehow more surreal and disturbing.

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Speaker 3: The or it was a TGI Fridays. But the real

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Speaker 3: life footage that we see all over the world, executions, assassinations, etc.

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Speaker 3: The experts will tell us that those do not count

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Speaker 3: for today's purposes. In tonight's episode, which may end up

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Speaker 3: being a series, we're exploring the allegations that people, either

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Speaker 3: as individuals or criminal organizations, have made films, including genuine torture, defilement,

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Speaker 3: and murder, for the express purpose of profit. This is

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Speaker 3: the fact in fiction surrounding things that are often called

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Speaker 3: snuff films.

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Speaker 4: And if anybody did happen to catch that Nicholas Cage

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Speaker 4: movie from the nineties eight millimeter, the plot of that

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Speaker 4: was this concept of real snuff films and the idea

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Speaker 4: that most of them, if not all of them, are faked,

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Speaker 4: are more like torture porn sort of you know, judged

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Speaker 4: up to look as real as possible, kind of flat

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Speaker 4: footage flatter exactly. But then, of course the twist of

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Speaker 4: that is that he is searching for the creators of

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Speaker 4: a potential real snuff film.

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Speaker 3: Please be aware, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode or episodes

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Speaker 3: on this genre may not be appropriate for all listeners.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna pause for a word from our sponsors, and

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Speaker 3: then we'll dive into how snuff films got into the zeitgeist.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts, all right, we're film motion picture nerds,

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Speaker 3: and you guys know way more than I do about

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Speaker 3: most things. So it's correct that film has been around

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Speaker 3: since the late eighteen hundreds, right, But the urban legend

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Speaker 3: of a snuff film true murder or torture for the

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Speaker 3: express purpose of profit, that didn't gain public recognition until

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventy, so way after the invention of film.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct? Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Popular examples would be things like Cannibal Holocaust, which we will.

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Speaker 3: Get to a little bit later.

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Speaker 4: This idea that some of these genre splatter films were

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Speaker 4: potentially real, and even examples of the filmmakers using that

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Speaker 4: as like a marketing tool, like not curating the cast,

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Speaker 4: you know, for interviews. Blair Witch Project is another example

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Speaker 4: of that, though snuff exactly, but it is I would

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Speaker 4: say it occupies a similar space to what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent setup because the rumor is

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Speaker 3: that there was a clandestine network or multiple networks of

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Speaker 3: murderers creating films showing in graphic, detailed, genuine homicide, torture

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Speaker 3: and defilement. The stories goes that these things had semi

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Speaker 3: professional production, They were made like any other film for profit,

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Speaker 3: no ideology, no terroristic threats, just monstrous murder for a

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Speaker 3: secret group of deeply disturbed, well to do customers. And

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Speaker 3: it followed the same pattern as other urban legends. Everybody

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Speaker 3: had heard of this. People might say they know someone

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Speaker 3: who knows someone who encountered one in real life. Yet

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Speaker 3: no one, when you drilled down, had seen such a

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Speaker 3: film for themselves. And to your earlier points, Noll, this

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Speaker 3: urban legend, especially in the United States, gained huge prominence

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Speaker 3: on January sixteenth, nineteen seventy six, with the release of

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Speaker 3: a film called Snuff, which, by the way, no offense.

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Speaker 3: I'm not Ciscolm or Ebert, but I think it's a skip.

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Speaker 3: There are other things to watch, for sure.

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Speaker 4: And it is based loosely on the Manson murders of

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty nine, Cellow Drive and all of that more

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Speaker 4: recently dramatized to frankly with pretty hilarious results, and once

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Speaker 4: upon a time in Hollywood the kind of fictionalized alternate

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Speaker 4: reality version of that. But that loomed large in the zeitgeist,

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Speaker 4: in the public consciousness, and this was capitalizing on that.

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Speaker 4: Snuff is what you would call a splatter film, a

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Speaker 4: genre that is still alive and kicking today. It is

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Speaker 4: a you know, you could argue that the terrifier movies

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Speaker 4: are splatter films. The whole point is to be as

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Speaker 4: prurient and despicable and reveling in unpleasantness, torture, murder, and death.

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Speaker 3: That is the That is the feature, not the bug.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that point in this film to give

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Speaker 3: you a sense of the plot as it originally stands.

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Speaker 3: There is an actor named Terry London, that's the character.

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Speaker 3: She is pregnant, and she and her producer and some

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Speaker 3: friends visit an unnamed South American country. They run a foul.

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Speaker 3: This is the Manson part. They run a foul of

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Speaker 3: a guy named Satan, and Satan learns a female biker cult. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the colt stalks and murders the character Terry London along

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Speaker 3: with her friends. It's gruesome, but it is not particularly

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Speaker 3: unusual for its genre until the very end. In the

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Speaker 3: last few minutes, the film breaks the fourth wall and

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Speaker 3: the camera pulls away.

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Speaker 4: A man who appears to be the director like you're

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Speaker 4: seeing behind the scenes, starts to flirt with a female

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Speaker 4: crew member. They begin to get into a little heavy

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Speaker 4: petting as the crew continues filming, and then suddenly think

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Speaker 4: take an incredibly violent term.

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Speaker 3: So, with the assistance of the rest of the crew,

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Speaker 3: this guy who appears to be the director proceeds to torture, murder,

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Speaker 3: and then disembowel the woman who was just kissing. The

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Speaker 3: crew keeps filming, and so Snuff ends abruptly and it

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Speaker 3: looks as though the camera ran out of film stock.

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Speaker 3: This was enormously controversial, but there's more to the story

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Speaker 3: because Snuff gained attention for its marketing campaign. Its marketing

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Speaker 3: campaign is a conspiracy. It blurs the line between fact

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Speaker 3: and fiction. A predecessor, we could argue, in some ways

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Speaker 3: to the Blair Witch project of nineteen ninety nine, which

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Speaker 3: we talk about a little bit in an earlier episode

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Speaker 3: of Ridiculous History with our pal, the journalist and author

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Speaker 3: Ross Benisch. So the story behind this behind Snuff is

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Speaker 3: that a guy named Alan Shackleton, who is I'll say it,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, he's kind of a sleeze bag. He

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Speaker 3: was associated with sexploitation films and very low genre stuff

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Speaker 3: we could call it. He is a producer at the

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Speaker 3: time he buys the distribution rights for this again fictional film, Snuff,

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Speaker 3: and he has also earlier read some articles in the

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Speaker 3: newspapers about rumors of genuine snuff films being created in

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Speaker 3: South America. Again, our definition being films made with real murder,

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Speaker 3: purely for commercial profit, not for ideological stuff, not for

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Speaker 3: sexual gratification. So Shackleton reads this and it inspires him

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Speaker 3: in a very dark way. He changes the ending of

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Speaker 3: the film without the original director's knowledge. He adds that

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Speaker 3: scene that Noel's describing there, and he sets out on

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Speaker 3: this marketing campaign that purposely implies the homicide and torture

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Speaker 3: depicted on are real. They're very ambiguous about it, but

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Speaker 3: they're leaning into it. The film bore a tagline when

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Speaker 3: it released it was this.

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Speaker 4: The film that could only be made in South America,

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Speaker 4: where life is cheap.

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Speaker 3: And Shackleton goes on to, as you mentioned, remove the

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Speaker 3: credits from the film to add to the mystery, and then,

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Speaker 3: in a Brene style thing, he hires fake protesters to

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Speaker 3: picket outside the theaters showing snuff. It starts as a

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Speaker 3: publicity stunt, and he is astounded that shortly thereafter actual

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Speaker 3: protesters begin picketing as well, people who are not in

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Speaker 3: on the grift. It goes viral, everyone from media pundits

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Speaker 3: to politicians, journalists, concerned citizens groups. They weigh in obviously

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Speaker 3: Thankfully they're all condemning the film, but it doesn't take

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Speaker 3: too long for journalists to figure out this is a

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Speaker 3: work of fiction.

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Speaker 4: And I mentioned earlier, I just want to double back

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Speaker 4: really quickly. Cannibal Holocaust is another example of almost the

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Speaker 4: same ploy and I would argue it's probably inspired by

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Speaker 4: that because this came out in nineteen eighty. It's an

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Speaker 4: Italian splatter film directed by Ruguero Diodato, and it was

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Speaker 4: so controversial, not only because of the graphic violence and

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Speaker 4: frankly xenophobic. With the time, maybe wasn't as much of

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Speaker 4: an issue, but it certainly didn't age well because of

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Speaker 4: the way it treats indigenous people as like brutal, you know,

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Speaker 4: body devouring maniacs, Inferno and those were very much inspired

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Speaker 4: by Cannibal Holocaust, But when they did the marketing for it,

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Speaker 4: they really leaned into this idea that it was real

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Speaker 4: and that the violence depicted in it was genuine and

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Speaker 4: did not have any of the actors participate in any

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Speaker 4: of the marketing. And it was so controversial that I

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Speaker 4: believe there was a lawsuit of some kind of there

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Speaker 4: was legal action being threatened against the filmmaker to the

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Speaker 4: point where he had to reveal that these people were

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Speaker 4: in fact alive show proof of life to the authorities.

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Speaker 4: So fascinating stuff. They didn't actually brutally kill a turtle though,

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Speaker 4: So that did happen, and it's really gross, unclean.

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Speaker 3: And the water buffalo in Apocalypse Now was also killed

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Speaker 3: on camera. This is another thing that echoes the pattern

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Speaker 3: we see in larger urban legends without getting to meta.

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Speaker 3: If we go back to Shackleton, we'll see that he

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Speaker 3: purposely made ominous and cryptic statements and interviews. He was

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Speaker 3: asked in Variety amid the controversy about the film stuff,

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Speaker 3: whether the murder at the very end is real, and

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Speaker 3: he simply responded, if the murder was real, I'd be

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Speaker 3: a fool to admit it. If it is not real,

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Speaker 3: I'd be a fool to admit it. Can't buy this

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Speaker 3: kind of publicity, right, That's what he's thinking, man, And

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Speaker 3: so there's this public outcry that triggers an investigation by

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Speaker 3: the authority. The DA of the time in New York's

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Speaker 3: district is guidamed Robert Morgenthau, and he dives in. He

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Speaker 3: concludes the violence is fake, and he like, like we

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Speaker 3: were talking about with a cannibal holocaust. He is able

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Speaker 3: to confirm with local authorities in South America that the

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Speaker 3: actor who appears to be murdered, tortured, dismembered has been

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Speaker 3: found by local police, has been verified to be alive

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Speaker 3: and well. And Morgenthau comes out and says, look, I

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Speaker 3: don't see anything qualifying for criminal prosecution. This doesn't count

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Speaker 3: as pornography. The marketing is misleading, but it doesn't count

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Speaker 3: as consumer fraud. And then he goes on and he

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Speaker 3: says essentially that he finds the whole thing pretty reprehensible,

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Speaker 3: pretty icky, And he notes a serious concern which we

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Speaker 3: see echoed today, said, you know, even as a work

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Speaker 3: of fiction, this film might encourage folks to commit real

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Speaker 3: life violence against women. And look, we get it. This

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Speaker 3: might sound like ancient history nineteen seventy six, almost half

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Speaker 3: a century ago, but the public's morbid fascination with the

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Speaker 3: urban legend of snuff films continues. So maybe now we

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Speaker 3: try to separate some disturbing fact from fiction. Let's ask ourselves,

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Speaker 3: are there real snuff films? Is someone out there committee

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Speaker 3: murder on film purely for profit?

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Speaker 4: We'll find out after a quick word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 2: Did you guys see the voicemail about this person, Lucifer Valentine.

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Speaker 2: This is another another filmmaker from the early aughts, I

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Speaker 2: think that created one of these disgusting films. It's got

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Speaker 2: a horrible name to it, slaughtered Dolls. It just looks

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Speaker 2: horrifying as some somebody called in, Anu called in and

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Speaker 2: let us know about it. And it's another one of

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Speaker 2: these things that is it is meant to look real,

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Speaker 2: almost like found a footage of someone who is being

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Speaker 2: kept alive and tortured and forced to do things, horrible things,

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Speaker 2: And there are a lot of questions about who this

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Speaker 2: person was, and it's maybe it's a story for another day,

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Speaker 2: but it's just it's someone who was trying to follow

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Speaker 2: in the footsteps of a thing like we just talked

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Speaker 2: about snuff, right, who is trying to create something that

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Speaker 2: it gets buzzed because it seems like it might actually

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Speaker 2: be real. And some of this stuff depicted on it

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Speaker 2: is real, but not the maybe not the actual death part,

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Speaker 2: but the stuff, the degradation stuff, yeah, the horrible things

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Speaker 2: that lead up to it. So it just, you know,

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Speaker 2: it seems as though there's more of that out there,

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Speaker 2: especially when you think about movies like Hostile that became

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Speaker 2: so popular.

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Speaker 3: I don't care for torture. I don't either, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. If it's not supernatural, then why am

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Speaker 3: I watching it?

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Speaker 4: I just as I get a little older, just like,

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Speaker 4: really mean spirited stuff like that just kind of I

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Speaker 4: just can't do it. It does remind me as well

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Speaker 4: of nineteen eighties splatter genre series of films called the

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Speaker 4: Guinea Pig films, one of which is called Flower of

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Speaker 4: Flesh and Blood and it is literally just a camera

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Speaker 4: single shot view of a guy dressed up as a

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Speaker 4: samurai dissecting a woman who is alive and she's just

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Speaker 4: like you know, on this table. And there are others

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Speaker 4: very much in the Yeah, a lot of weird stuff

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Speaker 4: too in the Southeastern Asian sphere in East Asians. Apparently,

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Speaker 4: Charlie Sheen caught a glimpse of this film at a

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Speaker 4: party or something in Hollywood, and he contacted the authorities

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Speaker 4: because he thought what he was seeing was very, very real.

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Speaker 3: Jeez.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess what it shows us ultimately is that

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Speaker 2: there is an appetite for this kind of thing, whether

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Speaker 2: or not it's actually an appetite to watch true death. Right,

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Speaker 2: there are enough people. Hostile was a really popular movie

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Speaker 2: and there were sequels made, and it was that thing

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Speaker 2: we're describing where it just watching people die.

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Speaker 3: Right. There's a reason I've said before on the show,

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Speaker 3: there's a reason people slow down at car accidents. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they want to see bad things happen at or remove

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Speaker 3: or to other people. Maybe the answer to this conspiracy

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Speaker 3: or this urban legend of snuff films. It really hinges

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Speaker 3: on definition. The horror magazine Fangoria. Did you guys ever

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Speaker 3: read Fangoria? I always flip.

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Speaker 4: Through it when I go through a magazine store of

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Speaker 4: Barnes and Noble or something like that. It's always interesting,

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Speaker 4: interesting photo layouts, for sure.

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Speaker 3: I had a subscription. Nice Yeah, oh yeah. They they

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Speaker 3: describe snuff films probably with the best definition. A while

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Speaker 3: ago they said a stuff film is a film in

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Speaker 3: which a person is killed on camera. Death is premeditated

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Speaker 3: with the purpose of being filmed in order to make money.

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Speaker 3: And we'll go back to that distinction again and again.

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Speaker 3: They continue, oftentimes there is a sexual aspect to the murder,

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Speaker 3: either on film or that the final project is purportedly

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Speaker 3: used for some sort of sexual ratification.

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Speaker 4: And I think that distinction is really important because your

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Speaker 4: mind might immediately pop to something like the Faces of

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Speaker 4: Death series, which are, if I'm not mistaken, genuine footage

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Speaker 4: of car crashes and you know, people dying under horrific circumstances.

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Speaker 4: But they are not manufactured for the purposes of the film.

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Speaker 4: They just are caught and then put together in this

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Speaker 4: macabre kind of collection.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're compiled. The perpetrators did not commit the acts

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Speaker 3: that are being depicted. These are executions, accidents, assassinations. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: they're real murders, they are genuine acts of violence on film.

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Speaker 3: They're a ton of examples. Like you said, in many

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Speaker 3: cases the deaths caught on tape maybe accidental, or in

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Speaker 3: the case of terrorist videos, the footage is made to

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Speaker 3: fulfill an ideology rather than to sell something on the

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Speaker 3: dark web. In the case of murderers and some serial killers,

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Speaker 3: films are made entirely for one's own personal interest, right,

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Speaker 3: that's a dark pause interest. But this is I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is what causes fact checking sites like our pals

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Speaker 3: at Snopes to say there has never been a verified

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Speaker 3: example of a genuine commercially produced snuff film. So if

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Speaker 3: you're looking for a snuff film example, or indeed an industry,

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Speaker 3: Snopes argues, you will not find it because it simply

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Speaker 3: does not exist.

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Speaker 4: Well, how some of those decapitation type videos we're talking about,

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Speaker 4: political killings, executions, those don't qualify because they're not done

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Speaker 4: for that specific purpose. They're done for at end. You

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Speaker 4: know they're done for political reasons.

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Speaker 2: I just imagine the depths of things that are accessible,

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Speaker 2: you know, with the onion router and other things. The

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Speaker 2: depths of stuff that exists online that we can't all access, right,

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Speaker 2: that there are passwords for and all that other stuff.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you can say there isn't an industry,

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Speaker 2: because I don't know how we have found it.

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Speaker 3: Right. This is the thing, you know, And I'm glad

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Speaker 3: you brought this up because this is why I, personally,

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Speaker 3: with great respect, disagree with snoops. That may have been

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Speaker 3: true in the past. Snuff films may have been an

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Speaker 3: urban legend in times gone. However, the economy of scale,

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Speaker 3: combined with technological innovation, means that the once expensive film equipment,

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Speaker 3: the once expensive monopolized distribution roots are no longer a barrier.

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Speaker 3: Stuff is more readily available, cheaper and easier to use

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Speaker 3: than ever before.

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Speaker 4: Well, even in eight millimeter, that's it's an entirely film

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Speaker 4: based process. It's an entirely like the collectors have to

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Speaker 4: have projectors, you know. It's like a very niche kind

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Speaker 4: of thing the way it's depicted, But it's literally titled

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Speaker 4: a million percent and that is of course the grade

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Speaker 4: of a film that's used for more kind of low grade,

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Speaker 4: kind of trashy type films as opposed to sixteen or

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Speaker 4: thirty two millimeter. But once again, I can't recommend Red

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Speaker 4: Rooms enough because Matt, it delves into everything you're talking about,

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Speaker 4: the password protection aspect of it, the using crypto to

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Speaker 4: pay for it, aspects of it, what types of folks

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Speaker 4: are in these chats, how does it work if you

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Speaker 4: win the auction, how do you get verified?

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Speaker 3: All of that stuff.

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Speaker 4: And it is chilling and seemingly as accurate a depiction

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Speaker 4: of this kind of world as could possibly be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does make me think about the days

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Speaker 2: of VHS, the days when if you had, you know,

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Speaker 2: a cassette player and you had something to record that

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Speaker 2: on and handicam and you could hand off tapes totally.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't be.

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Speaker 4: That of entry in early days of hand h camp quarters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, time, that's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I'm just imagining. I think where I would agree with

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Speaker 2: Snopes is that there's not there could not be some massive,

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Speaker 2: massive industry like this, right.

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Speaker 3: It would be underground really probably regionally dependent, maybe backpage

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Speaker 3: ad kind of stuff at that point, before social media.

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Speaker 3: Because what we've seen now with technological innovation is this,

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Speaker 3: I think it's important for us to make the positive point.

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Speaker 3: There is an amazing renaissance of independent film and creators,

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Speaker 3: people who could once upon a time never have had

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Speaker 3: a voice, right to have a platform to have their

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Speaker 3: story told. Now they can distribute work all over the world.

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Speaker 3: We're a huge fan of creators. All in all, that's

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Speaker 3: a pretty swell time to be a fillm nerd. Yet

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Speaker 3: technology has no moral compass, and so along with all

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Speaker 3: that great stuff that is coming from these new, frankly

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Speaker 3: superhuman abilities, there's a dangerous increasing opportunity for very messed

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Speaker 3: up people to do very evil, unclean things and then

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Speaker 3: capture it on film. This is a dark golden age

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Speaker 3: for violent, genuine depictions of murder and torture and all

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Speaker 3: sorts of unimaginable depravity. I mean online feeds alone. They've

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Speaker 3: long hosted death footage, terror propaganda, cartel murders, homicides captured

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Speaker 3: on closed circuit television and then propagated, but those typically

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Speaker 3: are for propaganda, intimidation and documentation, not for direct retail.

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Speaker 4: Well, and then you have stuff that's like approaching this

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Speaker 4: kind of thing, like I think we've talked about mccamee Manner,

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Speaker 4: the extreme haunted house situation.

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Speaker 3: I hate that. Oh it's suspicable.

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Speaker 4: And then there's a documentary about it, and this guy

404
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Speaker 4: is clearly just an hour absolute curve and tool, and

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Speaker 4: he's it's it's becomes very clear just if anyone doesn't

406
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 4: know this is you sign a waiver, you agree to

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Speaker 4: be essentially abducted, and then you know, put through the

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Speaker 4: ringer of all kinds of despicable torture, not bodily injury

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Speaker 4: per se, but psychological torture, being covered in cockroaches, water boarded,

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Speaker 4: things like that. But the implication when you're watching this

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Speaker 4: documentary is that this dude is doing streams of it,

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Speaker 4: and it's like selling these streams and or footage because

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Speaker 4: it's about as close as you can get to what

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Speaker 4: we're talking about without killing somebody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, possibly possibly selling to bedding rings also true, who's

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Speaker 3: gonna make it? That's how far they'll make it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And that's not a good haunted house because there's no

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Speaker 3: implication of something supernatural. It's just people being very gross. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I want to say, there's even like a thing where

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Speaker 4: they don't even they're supposedly a safe word, but they like,

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Speaker 4: don't honor your safe word.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. There's a lot of controversy to that, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's come up in a couple of other explorations

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Speaker 3: we've done. Yeah, So how about this, let's together, you

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Speaker 3: listening along at home us here in the studio, look

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Speaker 3: at some examples of verified depictions of murder and torture

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Speaker 3: and see whether they fit that somewhat hair splitting definition

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Speaker 3: of stuff. State executions, Right, let's start there. The true

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Speaker 3: definition of the state, spoiler, folks, is the entity that

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Speaker 3: possesses a monopoly on violence. That's why it's legal in

431
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 3: so many parts of the world during times of both

432
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 3: war and peace for governments to execute people. Witnessing executions

433
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: was part of the process way before the invention of

434
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: motion cameras. You know, citizens gathered in public spheres, right.

435
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 3: There were graphic drawings, woodcuts, paintings of executions in every

436
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: imaginable method, burning at the steak, the guillotine of course,

437
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: hangings for ever, and in some more modern cases there's

438
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: video footage of modern state sponsored execution.

439
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 4: I mean, like you said, Ben, the original it was

440
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 4: part of the bread and circuses of it all. Like

441
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 4: that was entertainment. You would go and bring the family

442
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: for a little picnic lunch and watch someone being beheaded

443
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 4: or you know, sent to the guillotine or you know

444
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: the the.

445
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: Gallows favorite weird apocrypha about guillotine deaths. Apparently there was

446
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: a guy who and this is probably not talked well.

447
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: He I like that one because it would be spooky.

448
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: But that guy, there was one guy who apparently was

449
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: able to get a hold of a pin and he

450
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: traced a dotted line on the back of his neck

451
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: and say, cut here, that's funny, just to go out respect,

452
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: you know that. Yeah. Yeah, there is no humor like

453
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 3: Gallows humor. There is no whistle like a graveyard whistle.

454
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: But the footage that we're seeing of the state sponsored

455
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: stuff is made for documentation, right, because witnessing a state

456
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: sponsored execution, to your point, noal has always been has

457
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: always been very important to governments and hierarchies. Or it's

458
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: made for intimidation, you know, don't do what this guy did,

459
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 3: or this will happen to you. It can improve it,

460
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: uh huh, just so, And then their advantage is it

461
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: is political. It is a power grab, right, it is intimidation,

462
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: but it is not made for economic gain. It can

463
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: be traded like that.

464
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: It can be used that way by certain sick individuals

465
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: to get ahold of it. But it does not meet

466
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 4: the cut and dried qualifications for a snuff film.

467
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: Well, let's do the old record scratch here, Dylan and

468
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: jump to November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. Anybody remember

469
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: the Zapruter film. M of course, was that maybe state

470
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: sponsored execution? Then you think about the millions and millions

471
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 2: of dollars that have been made on that moment and

472
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: that film in particular being shown.

473
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but za Bruter didn't do it. Well.

474
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 4: But to that's point, I think maybe what you're you're

475
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: hitting at is like it all depends on how deep

476
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: the conspiracy goes and who was involved, and yeah.

477
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we we also know this reminds me of our

478
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: Serial Killer memorabilia episode tangentially, right, some people who did

479
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: not commit acts make a make a pretty petty profiting

480
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: off that, right. So it's that's why we're calling the

481
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: definition of snuff film somewhat legalistic.

482
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 4: I'm waiting for the four K restoration of the Zapruder film.

483
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: I hope it happens. Uh, And where's the bonus footage

484
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: the making U.

485
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 4: Noticing the making of the moon landing with Kubrick's commentary.

486
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: That'd be fun. Oh yeah, yeah, what was that old

487
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: joke we had to fake the moon landing? But I'm

488
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 3: an OWD tour, so we actually faked it on them.

489
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: Well, it's like a lot of people really truly thought

490
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: that Christopher Nolan detonated a nuke, you know, for Oppenheimer. Yeah,

491
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: or at the very least that's the kind of rumor

492
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 4: that could get traction because of how committed he is

493
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 4: to like doing the thing.

494
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 3: And let's let's continue with the record scratch Dylan if

495
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 3: we could get another one perfect, Because we also see

496
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 3: the line between what does or does not constitute a

497
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: state execution is increasingly blurred. Matt to your earlier points

498
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 3: regarding the assassination of President Kennedy. The Wagner group that

499
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: you may recognize from some earlier episodes of stuff they

500
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: don't want you to know, has been as of this year,

501
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 3: found sharing videos of war crimes, including torture and homicide

502
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: via encrypted messaging apps like Telegram, and sometimes those are

503
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: behind paywalls. Jesus Christ, so are they are that if

504
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: something's paywall, they're making some kind of profit from it,

505
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: even if it's a small amount. But they're also Vagner

506
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: group is also an arm of the Russian military. It

507
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: could stick a check out our episodes on them, but

508
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 3: they're doing it for intimidation and propaganda purposes. I would

509
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: suggest this still blurs the line between military activity, terrorism

510
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: and snuff films. And we know that a lot of

511
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: evil people film murder.

512
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 4: Well, and you could also there's that weird murkiness between

513
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 4: is it a state sponsored execution, if it's a terrorist

514
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 4: group that perhaps has a little bit of underlying state support,

515
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 4: that maybe is that's front and center, Like with the

516
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 4: beheading of Daniel Pearl, the journalists, you know, that was

517
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 4: I think the one that I that my mind went

518
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: to in terms of like one of those videos that

519
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 4: was just out there.

520
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: That's a great point. We could also walk that out

521
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: a little further and ask about filmed cartel crimes and

522
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 3: murders because in some parts of the world, in Latin America,

523
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: cartels have replaced the state in a very real way.

524
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: So is that state sponsored execution? It goes back to

525
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 3: what is recognized as a legitimate regime in a given place.

526
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: You know, conversations most recently circling that kind of stuff

527
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: are the Taliban, which runs Afghanistan right now as we record,

528
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: So is that a terrorist group is a legit government?

529
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: How close did Escobar come to being the state of Columbia?

530
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, reminds me of when there was leaked cell

531
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: phone footage of Mumar Agadaffi. It was I don't think

532
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: it was his death. It was right after his death,

533
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: but just when it was shown as a proof of

534
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: state action or you know, action against a leader that

535
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: was once the head of the state. It's not the

536
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: same thing. I think Saddamad something like that too. Is

537
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: like after the execution, there was footage there was floating around.

538
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: Right of either the defiled corpse or the discovery right,

539
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 3: because Hussein was discovered hiding in a small compartment, and

540
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: Gaddafi died in a purposely humiliating way in a dation.

541
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: And the group that abducted and murdered Daniel Pearl, Harkat

542
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 4: ul Mujahadeen, was a Pakistan based Islamis Jiahatis group with

543
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: links to Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar. You know,

544
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 4: so there's you know, it's just sort of wheels within wheels.

545
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 4: And how far do those spider webs kind of extend

546
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 4: out into the state to the point where there is

547
00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 4: a crossover.

548
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: And how what does this perspective have to do with right?

549
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 4: Right?

550
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: Are you fighting for freedom or a greater good? It

551
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: depends upon whom you ask, right, And if you think

552
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: you're fighting for a greater good, that is a powerful

553
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: rationalization for all sorts of inhuman things. And there's a

554
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: there's a story we'll share in a moment that I

555
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: think could be an episode all its own in this milieu.

556
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 3: Before we get to it, we gotta we gotta go

557
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: back and say, obviously, the Internet has blurred the definition,

558
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 3: the previous non Internet definition of snuff. You know, you've

559
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: got absolute monsters like Luca Magnota or Vester Lee Flanagan.

560
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: The second UH mass shootings have been filmed. Pretty much

561
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 3: every imaginable crime has been live streamed at this point.

562
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: And if it's live streamed, does that not mean that

563
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: the platform upon which it is streamed makes some sort

564
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: of profit? Yeah? Right, Well, and you know, I mean,

565
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 3: what do you guess?

566
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 4: Well, if you we heard about all of the trauma

567
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 4: that is experienced by folks who work for like the

568
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 4: twitters of the world and who have to literally comb

569
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 4: through the content and flag these types of things, We've

570
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 4: we've heard examples of people doing these jobs experiencing stuff

571
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 4: that is very snuff adjacent, Yeah, and flaggable, So it's

572
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 4: removed from the platform.

573
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: Right, And that's a place where algorithms could actually be

574
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 3: very helpful. C ASM investigators have encountered similar trauma and

575
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: have to be rotated out on a pretty regular basis

576
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: just for their mental well being. Insanity. We know that

577
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: social media this is the dark side of the dopamine casino. Right.

578
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: We can go to Steve Lilliban, a journalist, educator, is

579
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: author of a book called The Devil Cinema, and he

580
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 3: has done a lot of research on Magnuta that case

581
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 3: in particular, and he says, look, this social media trend

582
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 3: is powering a new trend in crime. There are murderers

583
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 3: who document or broadcast their acts for nothing more than attention.

584
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 3: They're not getting paid financially. They're getting paid in likes.

585
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 3: They're getting paid in people looking at them. And I

586
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 3: think that's a very dangerous thing.

587
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 4: So in the magnota case, the murderer engaged in editing.

588
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 4: There's a certain I don't know, stylization. I guess you

589
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 4: could argue he put a song on top of it.

590
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 4: This led Fangoria, the aforementioned authority on all things splatter

591
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 4: and horror, to call it, quote the closest thing to

592
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 4: a real snuff film. However, it was published for attention,

593
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 4: not exclusively for a cash.

594
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 2: Grap so money down the line maybe theoretically, what could

595
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: we call it that?

596
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: I guess it's about intention, there isn't.

597
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 3: It right, it's about the money or the message. Yeah,

598
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 3: and these are very disturbed people where we're discussing if

599
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: we go back to cartels and terrorist groups and some

600
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: mass shooters. Yeah, they film executions and torture, whatever their

601
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: specific ideology and goals. Terrorist networks have long understood the

602
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: propagandistic power of filming heinous acts, you know, setting an example,

603
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: forced confessions, beheading, shooting, stabbing, strangulation. The list goes on,

604
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 3: and this is one of the stories that I think

605
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: could be an episode. Have you guys heard of William

606
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: Francis Buckley? No, I don't think I know this case. So,

607
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 3: William Francis Buckley was a company man, CIA station chief.

608
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: It was a big deal and he was working in

609
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 3: Beirut where he got assigned to station chief in nineteen

610
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 3: eighty four. In nineteen eighty five, he was kidnapped by

611
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: Husbola and he was tortured brutally for fifteen months before

612
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 3: his execution. During this time, Hibela sent at least three

613
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: separate videos of the process that the CIA folks in

614
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 3: Athens got a hold of. The disturbing things here are apparent,

615
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: But one thing that a lot of people might miss

616
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 3: is that the torturers are professionals. It is very difficult

617
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 3: to keep somebody alive for fifteen months while you're making

618
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: their life a literal living hell and just not quite

619
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 3: pushing them into the grave. He was injected with narcotics

620
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 3: from what analysts can tell, hallucinogens probably as well. Who

621
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: was blindfolded, chained, probably locked in a coffin for a

622
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,959
Speaker 3: lot of those months, and hisbela would continue sending Uncle

623
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 3: Sam videos of this guy losing his mind, signing confessions

624
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 3: all the old Frankly, the torture tactics that the communist

625
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: taught the world and the difference, I guess, the difference

626
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 3: between amateur and professional here might seem counterintuitive. Do check

627
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: out our series on whether or not torture works. But

628
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: the thing is, these guys, these people torturing the CIA

629
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 3: station chief. They worked to keep him alive and to

630
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: some limited degree lucid during the process. The odds are

631
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: pretty high that HESBLA also filmed Buckley's actual death, which

632
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: we believe was probably an induced heart attack. They recovered

633
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: his body when it was dumped in the road. The

634
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 3: CIA has not acknowledged any footage of the actual death,

635
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: but they have also not published the videos for obvious reasons.

636
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 3: Horrific stuff. Probably an episode, but I don't think if

637
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: it's the definition of snuff, because, as you were saying,

638
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: you guys, the profit motive there is not financial. It's propaganda.

639
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: Intimidation makes you think of the stuff that the CIA

640
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: has filmed and sent to people, you know, because we

641
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: know they like to be torture of people too, but

642
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: they don't.

643
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: Call it that. Oh yeah, yeah, just enhance the interrogation

644
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 3: and so on.

645
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: And they love to keep people alive too. Yes, it's

646
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: really gross. It's all really gross.

647
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 3: Agreed, this is a dark one for us, folks. We're

648
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: actually how about this, How about we take a break

649
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: for a word from our sponsors, just to touch grass

650
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: and catch some air before it gets even worse. Okay,

651
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: we have returned. We hope everybody had a good commercial break.

652
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: Believe it or not, it gets darker. Cannibalism, am I right?

653
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 4: Sorry, dear, I already talked about cannibal holocaust, but this

654
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 4: is a very different case, the case of a gentlemen

655
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 4: we've talked about on the pod numerous times. I believe

656
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: notorious German cannibal and murderer by the name of Arman

657
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 4: Muse who in very recent years March of two thousand

658
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 4: and one, murdered, burned Brandis with his consent.

659
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: Boil boy. This gets complicated. Yeah, let's do a disclaimer

660
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 3: here as well. This is pretty graphic. Muse also, with

661
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: as you said, Noel Brand's consent, severed Demand's penis, they

662
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 3: attempted to eat it together. He killed Brands again as

663
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: we can as far as we can tell, with his consent,

664
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 3: and he spent ten months eating flesh from the cadaver.

665
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 3: MWS is also a bit of a film enthusiast. Before

666
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: his crimes, he filmed these videos of himself, really weird stuff.

667
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 3: We have descriptions, but due to Germany's privacy laws, they

668
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 3: have not been released to the public. Things where he

669
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 3: would guys, he would cover himself and ketchup and mime

670
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: cutting himself without actually doing it.

671
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 4: There there's actually quite a rich history, which is maybe

672
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 4: the wrong word, in German cinema as well, of this

673
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 4: type of thing. The Necromantic series is pretty much this

674
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 4: kind of thing. It is obviously fictionalized. I believe the

675
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,479
Speaker 4: guy's name is Butcherraig, and he's also made some other

676
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: really really intense snuff esque fictionalized, some of them very

677
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 4: high art and very interesting if that's your bag, if

678
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 4: you want to check some of it out. But yeah,

679
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: a lot of German cinema very niche, very horrific, that

680
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 4: depicts a lot of the same kind of things that

681
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 4: are being described here Ben, some real weird, kinky acts.

682
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 4: Do you want to talk about the molding of the

683
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 4: things into the things?

684
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. He would hang himself at his feet like a

685
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: with a block and tackle kind of situation, like you'd

686
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: see a hog at a butcher shop, and then he

687
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 3: would shape marzipan and minced meat into the shape of

688
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: various human body parts, especially penises. He got in trouble

689
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 3: with his mother when she found some of this stuff.

690
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 3: He started keeping it in a safe. He was always

691
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: active online looking for people who would help him fulfill

692
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 3: this fantasy, and that's where he found Brandis. After several

693
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: false starts, he filmed that night. He filmed those horrific acts,

694
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 3: and authorities found the footage. Again, it's not released to

695
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: the public. Later investigators said Muse is clearly unwell. You know,

696
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: the question of consent is very difficult in this kind

697
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 3: of case, and they said, above all, he is sexually motivated,

698
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: not financially motivated. So as terrifying as his acts are

699
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: in the mind of authorities, by this definition, it doesn't

700
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 3: qualify as a snuff film. And I've got to be

701
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: honest with you, guys, I'm sure we're all on the

702
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: same page. This one really bothers me. It reminds me

703
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: of our previous conversation about the definition of genocide. If

704
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: we all remember that one.

705
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 4: Well, it's an ongoing debate to some anyway, right.

706
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: Right, Why is the un so legalistic about this? Why

707
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: is the idea of what what does or does not

708
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 3: constitute a snuff film? Why is it hinging on this

709
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 3: specific definition? After a certain point, you have to ask yourself,

710
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 3: are the ignoring that innocent people have died? You know

711
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: what I mean? Are we diminishing their lives by saying, oh,

712
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: this is not quite the thing. I don't know.

713
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I mean, I guess I get I'm

714
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 4: not fully against the nature of the definition, because the

715
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 4: intent really does play a part, and it's sort of

716
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 4: like definition of like maybe murder versus manslaughter or something.

717
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 3: M Oh, yeah, I hear you, And I think that's

718
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: a really good point, nol. It's just, you know, we

719
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: all have strong stomachs. There are just some things that

720
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 3: get to us. And having to be so deep in

721
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: this is really you know what, folks, if you could

722
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: longtime listeners do us a favor and just like email

723
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: something nice like a compliment or a joke or something happy.

724
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 3: After this conspiracydiheartradio dot com, etc. We'll tell you how

725
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 3: to get to us at the end. We also have

726
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that multiple serial murderers serial killers have been

727
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: tied to allegations of snuff filps. Henry Lee, Lucas, Hodest Tool,

728
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 3: Leonard Lake, Charles Ing, Carl Carla Homocha, Paul Bernardo. The

729
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: list goes on. Lucas and Tool, as we proved in

730
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: previous episodes, were largely lying about things, and they were

731
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 3: probably lying because they were telling investigators stuff they thought

732
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: the authorities wanted to hear, which is part of the reason,

733
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: you know, interrogations can be so ethically fraught. We know

734
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: that Ing and Lake they filmed interactions with victims, but

735
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: apparently they didn't film the murders themselves. So you know,

736
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 3: we have worked extensively in this gruesome field of serial

737
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: murderers and video or audience evidence of their crimes. Maybe

738
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 3: throw it to you, guys, Matt Nole. I know we've

739
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: all we've all worked on investigations of this sort of stuff.

740
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: Have you guys seen anything from a serial murderer that

741
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 3: will qualify as an actual stuff film.

742
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 4: Not I've but Mad, I'm super interested in your work

743
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 4: on the Lake and Ing stuff because that I was

744
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 4: unaware of that case before you know, you started getting

745
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 4: involved in that, and that did not realize that how

746
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 4: specific and you know, was voyeuristic.

747
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: A lot of what they did was.

748
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 2: About I've first of all to answered the question, I

749
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: haven't seen anything. It would be considered a snuff film

750
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 2: if we're using profit still as our definition there, because

751
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: specifically Leonard Thomas Lake and Charles Ing would they killed

752
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: a lot of people, a lot of men that they

753
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: generally didn't do this other process with which included enslaving someone,

754
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: keeping them. I would use the r word raping them,

755
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: torturing them, and they would kill them. They would take

756
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: video footage of that process, most of that process, and

757
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 2: it was recovered when when both men were eventually arrested

758
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: and the place where they were doing this stuff was raided.

759
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: Do do ings kleptomania, Yeah.

760
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, I used to try to steal a vice

761
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: out of the store and he got caught. And there's

762
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: you know, previous weapons charger. There's a book called Die

763
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: For me that I stually Scott gave this one to

764
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 2: me because he was a big.

765
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 3: Scott of car stuff.

766
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a bunch of books you can read

767
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 2: on those guys if you're into this kind of stuff,

768
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: But I would not recommend trying to make a whole

769
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: story on it. We ended up not making that show, by.

770
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: The way, it was because it was just too much,

771
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 3: too much. It's it's dark, you know, especially looking at

772
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: Lake's inspirations and the fact that the fact that he

773
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 3: was lucid. We know he was lucid because he committed suicide.

774
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: He took the cyanide pill when he knew the hammer

775
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: was coming down. So this was not someone who was hallucinating.

776
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

777
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 3: But we don't know whether or not they would have,

778
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: you know, if the technology was available at the time,

779
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 3: would they have gone onto a gore side or a

780
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: dark web and tried to make some profit.

781
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: I certainly don't know, but I don't think so that

782
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 2: that was I mean, the dude, you can read all

783
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: about the guy Leonard was obsessed with this thing called

784
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 2: the Collector, and you'd go deep into all of that,

785
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 2: and so it was definitely a personal thing.

786
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: I don't it was a just it was.

787
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 3: It was a hellish It was a hellish fantasy and

788
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: an aspiration that he wanted to He wanted to create

789
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: that world in real life.

790
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 4: He got a wonder too in some ways how, like

791
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 4: the popularization of stuff like the saw films and the

792
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 4: hostile films, and you know, of course a lot of

793
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: the underground stuff that we're talking about as well, Like

794
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 4: is there a world where that stuff existing? Is almost like,

795
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 4: I don't know, some sort of balm for people that

796
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 4: might commit those types of crimes. Did they not have

797
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: access to sort of like stand in material? You know,

798
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: I'm not doing a very good job of saying what

799
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 4: I'm trying to get across, No, I hear. It's sort

800
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 4: of like essay, you know. And the idea of a

801
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 4: lot of pornography where all the actors are of age

802
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 4: but they maybe pretend to not be. And this idea

803
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 4: of these materials existing, is that something that will keep

804
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 4: people from committing these crimes? Or is it something that

805
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: will make them more likely to commit these crimes?

806
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 3: Now?

807
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 4: Well, Galvin, that's right, and I just inspire I wonder

808
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 4: about that.

809
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a question that's very difficult to answer, and

810
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: a lot of we always go to the scientists before

811
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 3: we go to the politicians right on this show. So

812
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of psychological research into exactly what

813
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: you're asking, and that, unfortunately the answer is still not conclusive.

814
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 3: We don't know the entirety of the mechanisms. We do

815
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 3: know that in all the above cases we've discussed, these

816
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 3: horrific acts did occur. They are on film, some are

817
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 3: even live streamed. But still investigators will say they don't

818
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 3: fit the definition of actual snuff and they'll agree with snoops.

819
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: But our dark news for this Evening Conspiracy Realist is

820
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 3: that this may have changed just last month thanks to

821
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 3: some stunning work by a journalist named Ben Ditto over Advice.

822
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, this popped up and I was like, okay,

823
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 4: here we are, you know, because I mean, I'm fascinated

824
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 4: by this stuff, Like I keep bringing up Bait Millimeter.

825
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 4: That was a movie that really like, Okay, this is

826
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 4: something that maybe exists, and I've been fascinated by it

827
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 4: ever since. And this may well be the first example

828
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: of a quote unquote real snuff film.

829
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed. One more disclaimer, The next few minutes of

830
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 3: this podcast are not appropriate for all audience members, for anyone.

831
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: Do you even have to say, oh, it's hor or fine.

832
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 3: It's real bad. Well, we owe people the truth.

833
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 2: I think it's true.

834
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you can read the article if you want

835
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 4: more of the details. So I think Ben, you've you've

836
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 4: sort of spared us. Yeah, you condensed it a little bit.

837
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 4: But there's a film at the surfaced and as did

838
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 4: it reveals in his article, it's a video that started

839
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 4: making the rounds through Telegram and other encrypted apps back

840
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: in July of twenty twenty five, known colloquially, I guess

841
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 4: or in these circles as the Vietnamese Butcher video, and

842
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 4: he writes that the video shows a man lying on

843
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 4: his back and a tiled room, pleasuring himself. At a

844
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 4: point that he reaches orgasm, a second man decapitates him

845
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 4: with a meat cleaver and a few very expert strokes,

846
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: as he describes it, then drags the head off the body.

847
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 4: And that man is wearing an Adidas tracksuit and a

848
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 4: guy FOWX type mask, and he's being very slow and

849
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 4: intentional with his movements and the victim much like the

850
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 4: German case, that we talked about. Ben seems to be

851
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 4: in on it, is not crying or begging for their

852
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 4: life or struggling in any way.

853
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and Ben ditto. We want to thank you

854
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 3: because you did excellent work. We're also we're not just

855
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 3: summarizing this article. I went through Telegram and delved into

856
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: the case further and it genuinely got to me. It

857
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 3: genuinely weirded me out, and I don't really want to

858
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 3: talk about it, but again, we owe you the truth, folks.

859
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 3: The video does continue and it shows the decapitation from

860
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 3: various angles, and then it shows the dismemberment of the cadaver,

861
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: including things like removing the intestines from the remainder of

862
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 3: the body. And then it's followed by these unexplained images

863
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: of food.

864
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, implication being perhaps that there was some culinary twists

865
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 4: to the whole.

866
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 3: Thing, right, Yeah, and there's we haven't verified what that

867
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: what that unidentified meat could be, but it's clearly there's clearly,

868
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: to your Pointnal, an intention on behalf of the filmmakers

869
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 3: right to imply cannibalism. And then there's bonus content other

870
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 3: gore sites, you know, things like Motherless and so on.

871
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: We don't want to mention a bunch of these because

872
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 3: they're not worth looking at. They platformed a larger version

873
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 3: or longer version of the Butcher footage in which the

874
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: executioner and the victim appear to do a rehearsal, a

875
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: dry run. They're slowly walking through the motions of the

876
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 3: murder that later occurs. So thanks again to Ben Ditto

877
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: who verified this footage and said yes, these iterations, the

878
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 3: original and the other stuff were likely sold online for

879
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 3: commercial gain, making it what he calls quote, the first

880
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,760
Speaker 3: bonafide snuff film to find its way out in the world.

881
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 3: And this is an unsolved case as we're as we're recording.

882
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,240
Speaker 4: Do we know anything about the identity of the victim?

883
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 3: We do, Yeah, we do know. Yes, I would say yes.

884
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 3: Both men appear to be speaking with a regional accent

885
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 3: there in Vietnam, and the brands of everything depicted on

886
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 3: camera have been identified, even down to the physical store

887
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 3: that sold the tiles on the floor. You know, so

888
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 3: people are working here. They haven't found the exact location

889
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 3: Central Vietnam, northern maybe maybe across the border in Cambodia.

890
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 3: They haven't found that.

891
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 4: There's even a tattoo visible.

892
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, on the executioners side, the victim to your question

893
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 3: is a guy named we believe it's a guy named

894
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 3: Nuyan pardon my pronunciation. He had quite a history in

895
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 3: these gore communities.

896
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, participating in a lot of these extreme message boards.

897
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 4: Had handle dot to beheading. He also had accounts on

898
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 4: numerous other forums that discuss and trade in these types

899
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 4: of things.

900
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he even went on dating sites and reference

901
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 3: wishing to be beheaded, having a death wish. Journalist online

902
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: sleuths alike are fairly confident this is the victim to

903
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: the murderer. Things get If you're looking at identifying the murderer,

904
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 3: things are much more murky. Like you said, we know

905
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 3: he's mail. He has a tattoo that reads thirteen nine,

906
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: and there is speculation to his identity, but it's very

907
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 3: very loose. It's not really holding water. We do know

908
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 3: that apparently the person claiming to be the murderer has

909
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: control over Dot's Facebook profile. Wow, Yeah, there's not an

910
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 3: upside to this one.

911
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 2: Well, the upside is there now exists this thing called

912
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 2: AI and you can generate real up stuff like that.

913
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 2: Now they don't actually have to kill anybody nice and well.

914
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 4: That sort of intersects into my question whereas like, is

915
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 4: there a world where that's better than the alternative or

916
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 4: what does it mean? Like existentially speaking, I don't have

917
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 4: the answer.

918
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 3: I don't know right, like like fictionalized depictions or drawings

919
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 3: of cism, you know, right right, it's it's very it's

920
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 3: very dark stuff. I mean, this case in Vietnam or

921
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 3: in Cambodia may well be solved as amateur researchers, journalists,

922
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 3: and local law enforcement aren't continuing. They're grizzly but righteous

923
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 3: mission to figure out what's happening. I don't know, guys.

924
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 3: As we wrap up again, I'm keeping it together for

925
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: this one, we have to ask what this teaches us.

926
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 3: It teaches us that stuff films started as an urban legend,

927
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 3: a made up campfire tail, and it was culturally tied

928
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 3: to humanity's unceasing fascination with things dark and unclean. But

929
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 3: combined with new technological capability, just like how large data

930
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 3: models have created the ability to see into the future

931
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 3: right or may create telepathy, technology turned this into a

932
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 3: real thing. I think that's fair to say. And I'm

933
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 3: really I'm really not chill. About acknowledging that. I don't

934
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 3: know if you guys would.

935
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 4: Agree, I would agree, Yeah, I would agree that it's nice.

936
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: I still think it's something that's been around forever. We're

937
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: just we're I don't think we're ever going to be

938
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 2: privy to the actual depravity that exists in some corners of.

939
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 4: I agree with that too, And I mean, one thing

940
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 4: that the Internet does is it just enhances and magnifies

941
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 4: and like, just what's the word I'm looking for? Disacerbates

942
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 4: any pre existing kink and or fetish and or perversion

943
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 4: and just what you want, how specific do you want

944
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 4: to get there? It is, it's there if you know

945
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 4: where to find it.

946
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll put the way I always like to say

947
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 3: it is. The question is are there more skeletons in

948
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 3: closets now? Or does civilization just possess better flashlights? And

949
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 3: that may be the case.

950
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: I keep going back to in my mind. I keep

951
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: going back to the George Floyd video and thinking about that,

952
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: trying to wrap my head around it as a snuff film.

953
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: And I remember people talking about as a snuff film

954
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 2: when it came out, when the footage was released, when

955
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: all of the onlookers who were shooting footage, when the

956
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 2: police cameras were released, when the footage inside the cup

957
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 2: foods where he was before that was released, where you

958
00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 2: get to watch this man get killed, right, And how

959
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: how many outlets covered it extensively, how much of that

960
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 2: footage was shown. How many of us just watched it,

961
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: and you know, for various reasons, mostly again, as I

962
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 2: said at the top, for solidarity, but we were fascinated

963
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 2: we watched it. Right, how many times we've watched the

964
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 2: nine to eleven footage over and over and over again,

965
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 2: where there's there are hundreds of people getting killed every

966
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,479
Speaker 2: you know second of those that footage, you're just watching death.

967
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 4: It's only possible to parse out and drill down into

968
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 4: every one of those motivations when you're watching a thing

969
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: like that, right, because like, on the one hand, yeah,

970
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 4: you have a reason you're watching it, solidarity, wanting to understand,

971
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 4: wanting to be part of like this moment and experience

972
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 4: that for good reasons. But then the mechanics of our

973
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 4: psyche stuff going on, you know, it's.

974
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 2: Think about the forest fire that was the Charlie Kirk

975
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 2: footage that went out, the stuff that wasn't covered by

976
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: national news me. It went on on social media and

977
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 2: was just streamed over and over and over again of

978
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 2: a man dying.

979
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 4: I've gone out of my way to avoid that. By

980
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 4: the way, I have not seen it and have no

981
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 4: interest in looking for it. I don't know if you

982
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 4: guys happen to catch it by accident or on purpose,

983
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 4: but I just I've really tried to not see that stuff.

984
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 3: I feel like it's part of the job to not

985
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 3: turn away on my end, you know. And this leads

986
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 3: us to the third and perhaps worst aspect here. What

987
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 3: we're seeing is not a case really of legalistic definitions,

988
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 3: nor is it a case one off maniacs. This is

989
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: a trend enabled empowered by technology along with very old

990
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: human impulses. So until something changes and we don't know

991
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 3: the answer, this trend may well continue. Is it something

992
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 3: where we need government to be able to clamp down

993
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 3: on people posting via encrypted messaging apps right or wherein

994
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 3: there is no anonymous internet such that these criminals and

995
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 3: these monsters can be caught. I think part of the

996
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 3: answer honestly goes into capitalism. If we're talking about the

997
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: real definition of snuff films, as far as something evil

998
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 3: made for profit. People will be murdered, they will be tortured,

999
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 3: they will be defiled on camera. It's going to happen.

1000
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 3: It's happening now. The footage will, in a capitalistic society,

1001
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 3: end up being monetized in some way, and I'm not

1002
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: sure how that can be stopped.

1003
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, think about all of those examples we were

1004
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: just talking about the footage of all that stuff ends

1005
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 2: up on news sites that have ads running on them.

1006
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 2: That when you have something horrifying that happens like that

1007
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 2: and there's footage of it, then if you host a

1008
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 2: site that can show video, you are going to make

1009
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 2: book hoodles of money because of the number of clicks

1010
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: that are going to occur, the number of eyes that

1011
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 2: are going to be on it, the number of times

1012
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: it gets shared. Like, is it better morally or worse

1013
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 2: if it's not exclusively made for a profit but it

1014
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 2: ends up making a crapload of profit? Like, I don't

1015
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: know the answer to that, but it feels like we're

1016
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 2: in a world where that is just the reality.

1017
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's just shades of worse in all

1018
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 4: of this, right, Like, I don't know if there's better.

1019
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, now I'm with you. Matt, and with this we

1020
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 3: can say that in this case our good friends at

1021
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 3: Snopes may be incorrect because of all these recent events.

1022
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 3: Even if we're going with the legalistic definition of snuff films,

1023
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 3: the trend, the continuation, that is the stuff they don't

1024
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,479
Speaker 3: want you to know. Be safe out there, folks. Thanks

1025
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 3: for hanging with us, Check in with us, Let us

1026
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 3: know how you're doing in your neck of the global woods.

1027
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 3: You can give us a call, you can send us

1028
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 3: an email. You can find us on lie yep.

1029
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 4: You can find us the handle conspiracy Stuff on Facebook

1030
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 4: with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy. On

1031
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 4: x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube we have video content

1032
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 4: goal or for your enjoying purposes. On Instagram and TikTok,

1033
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 4: we're Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1034
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1035
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,919
Speaker 2: three st d wyt K. It's a voicemail system. You've

1036
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 2: got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and let

1037
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 2: us know if we can use your name message on

1038
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 2: the air. If you'd like to send us an email,

1039
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: we are.

1040
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 3: The entities to read each piece of correspondence we receive.

1041
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 3: Be well aware, yet I'm afraid Sometimes the void writes

1042
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 3: back and honestly fellow listeners, not joking. Having a tough

1043
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 3: time today. So if you want to send something nice,

1044
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 3: what the Internet calls eye bleach, you want to give

1045
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 3: a dumb compliment, whatever, it'd be great to hear from you.

1046
01:04:50,400 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 3: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1047
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1048
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1049
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,720
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