1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. I believe 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: black women are the future of the Internet. Much of 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: the work to create that future, a safer, more inclusive one, 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: has been built by black women. But we need to 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: acknowledge the sad reality that that work doesn't always come 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: easy for the black women trying to build better platforms 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: and push for changes in systems and institutions, That work 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: comes at a huge personal cost. This is something that 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: tech policy expert E Foma Zoma knows all too well. 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: My full name is i Foma Zoma, and I'm the 12 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: founder and principle of the consulting firm that's called earth Seed, 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: which is actually named after the community that Octavia Butler 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: created in Parable of the Sower and Parable of the 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Talent in Octavia Butler's novel Rble of the Solar. Earth 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: Seed is a community based around the idea that God 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: has changed. It's all about the future and the possibilities 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: of what can be and knowing Foma, this name is 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,279 Speaker 1: no accident. Before she started her own firm, I Foma 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: was already an early champion of change. Busy architect in 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: the future of the Internet, an early higher on pinterest 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: Public Policy Team. Her work set Pinterest apart, and headline 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: after headline applaud and Pinterest for taking early action to 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: keep dangerous diss and misinformation off their platform. You'd think 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: this would make her a superstar within the organization, but 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: like so many black women who fight for change, that 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: wasn't the case. As things were going south, I was 28 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: still doing the work. Misinformation is kind of a trendy 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: thing now, but back in when the FOMA was hired 30 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: at Pinterest, people weren't really talking about the need to 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: keep it off platforms. She hit the ground running as 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: soon as she was hired and basically designed an early 33 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: framework of moderation policies to keep dangerous diss and misinformation 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't off Pinterest, first by banning prolific conspiracy theorist Alex 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: Jones and later health misinformation. My first week on the job, 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: I pushed our GC and our Trust and Safety team 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: and the content policy team to make the decision that 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: we ended up making on Alex Jones and removing him 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: entirely from the platform at a time. This was at 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: a time when he was not really being addressed by 41 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: any platform. And the argument I made at that point 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: UM was first that he already violated a lot of 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: the policies that we had his content um and two 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: important things. One that if you're acting on misinformation. At 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: that point, no other platform had a misinformation policy other 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: than like Medium. And my point was, well, if we're 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: making decisions because we know content is misinforming, we have 48 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: a misinformation policy. We need to just write it and 49 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: be clear and stand in our convictions and post it 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: on the site. A few researchers will pick it up, 51 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: others may pick it up, most people won't, But I 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: do think when you're making decisions, you need to be 53 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: transparent about what those decisions are and why and so. 54 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: From there and the policy that came out of that, 55 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: then I was able to push UM for a lot 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: of the health misinformation work that I did, which started 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: with getting a landscape analysis. That's something that I feel 58 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: has been missing from a lot of platforms. If you 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: don't know what's on your platform and others don't know, 60 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: how do you address it properly if you don't know 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: who it's impacting. Because most misinformation is not an equal 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: opportunity harm. It's mostly targeted at people of color and 63 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: at women, and when you're looking at health misinformation, it's 64 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: especially start and so having that information, I was then 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: um able to push for things that I was retaliated 66 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: against because of. But that's the other set of stories. 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: Moderation on a platform like Pinterest is no easy thing, 68 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: but he foam a champion moderation policies that targeted how 69 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: savvy this informers actually can be. For instance, there's huge 70 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: amounts of inaccurate content about abortion targeting the Black community. 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: They use rhetoric like black jettocide and accused Planned Parenthood 72 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: of wanting to abort black babies, using imagery of black 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: moms and babies to target black folks. But there's also 74 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: huge overlap in the anti choice movement and the white 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: supremacist movement, so some of this content is actually produced 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: by white supremacist groups trying to target the Black community. 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: Efoma's ability to build out thoughtful moderation policies around this 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of complex content was bolstering pinterest public reputation as 79 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: a company who stood apart as an early model of 80 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: what it looked like to build safer and more ethical 81 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: platforms they were championed in the press, but all the while, 82 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: Efoma was being mistreated internally by her own colleagues for 83 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: the very work that allowed Pinterest to be seen as 84 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: a success story. So a few platforms had any kind 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: of public facing policy around misinformation and disinformation, and back then, 86 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: I feel like pinterest was really able to set themselves apart, 87 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: at least from someone from the outside looking in. And 88 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: you were doing so much of that work all the 89 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: while they were making your life harder for doing it. 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: You know, how do you sit with that um with 91 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: a lot of peace that karma is real, um and 92 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: it will come back to get them. But but also 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: that was one of the reasons why I had to 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: go public about the retaliation that I faced when I 95 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: raised pay discrimination concerns about the docks sing that I 96 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: experienced from a white male supremacist who happened to also 97 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: work at pinterest after I pushed for decisions to be 98 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: made around white supremacist content that had existed on the platform. 99 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 1: There are a lot of intersections, as you know, with misinformation, 100 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: and so even though pinterest was most well known because 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: of the health misinformation work that I did, we took 102 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot of steps to address other types of misinformation, 103 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: and where those two I guess circles and event diagram 104 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: met was on an anti choice site that had been 105 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: posting misinformation around birth control and access to abortion services 106 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: being targeted specifically at black communities to uh push eugenics 107 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: agenda from the pro choice movement, just and the ways 108 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: in which the misinformation aligned I pushed internally that like 109 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: this is this is why we have to look at 110 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: misinformation in general. We have to look at the specific 111 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: ways in which it it harms people. But if you 112 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: just take a well, this is an opinion point of view, 113 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: then you're missing that this is both health misinformation and 114 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: it's also political because is it's targeted at a group 115 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: using language and using imagery, because they're very good at 116 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: using images of black mothers and black children on these 117 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: websites that are run entirely by white supremacists, that you 118 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: may miss some of the context if you only look 119 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: at the content and not what their entire website is pushing. Well, 120 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: especially on a platform like Pinterest that is so visual, 121 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: you know you might be on there because you're designing 122 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: a new nursery, you're planning a wedding, you're not necessarily 123 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: primed to be hit with content that could be racially 124 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: charged or politically charged, or be delivering health missinformation. You 125 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: know your guard is down, and that's why it was 126 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: particularly harmful. And that was my even though the platform 127 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: had never really done anything public in the policy space, 128 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: wasn't certainly not known by any of the reporters I 129 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: ended up working with about policy decisions. One of the 130 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: reasons why I felt so strongly about this is it's 131 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: a platform that was going towards I p O at 132 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: the time that I had started, So I started pre 133 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: I p O and part of the messaging around that 134 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: is where a platform with eight and ten moms in 135 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: the US on here, lots of women use the platform 136 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: around the world, and women are often decision makers when 137 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: it comes to financial choices for their households. So it's 138 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: a great platform for advertisers. But at the same time, 139 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: that's what made it a prime target for misinformation forveyors 140 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: because you have a captive audience folks who are not 141 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: a tune to looking for miss and disinformation because they're 142 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: not on Facebook, they're not on Twitter, They're in a 143 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: place that feels safe to them, and so they're the 144 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: perfect opportunity to then hawk whatever goods you're selling. A 145 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: point that I made often because I get invited by 146 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: the w h O, CDC and others to talk about 147 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: this health misinformation work. Um that they not thought about 148 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: it as much is the financial incentives that are tied 149 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: to a lot of misinformation, whether it's Alex Jones selling 150 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: his nonsense T shirts and supplements and whatever else. These 151 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: people are scam artists. That's their number Their number one 152 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: job is scamming folks. They use the values that people have, 153 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: they use the fears that people have to then sell 154 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: their products. But at the end of the day, these 155 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: are spammers and scammers, and so you need to also 156 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: be looking at what it is that they're trying to 157 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: push on your platform. For almost every single health misinformation site, 158 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: they were selling supplements. So if you would address dangerous 159 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: supplements on the platform as spam, why would you not 160 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: consider this at the same level of harm to the 161 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: platform and ultimately harm to legitimate advertisers. I think that 162 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: we're so used to thinking about scammers. If people, you know, 163 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: felling fake gucci on the street and like, no, it 164 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: can people can can scam online and they're misleading you 165 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: in order to to get you to buy whatever bullshit 166 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: product they're hocking. I would actually argue that the person 167 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: is selling the Gucci handbag that's fake. That's not harmful. 168 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: You get a cheaper bag if it's made well, it 169 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: looks pretty good, like you get a deal. They get 170 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: a deal. Gucci doesn't get a deal. But what do 171 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: they need one for? Um? But that's not harmful in 172 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: the same way that telling parents, and especially at the 173 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: point at which most parents make decisions about vaccines in 174 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: the last trimester before they have the kid, that they 175 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: instead of getting a vaccine for their child, which will 176 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: save their child's life, they should instead go buy your 177 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: vitamin case supplement. That is so harmful and dangerous in 178 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: a way that we need to take it more seriously. 179 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: It's not a difference of opinion. It's actually costing people's 180 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: lives definitely. And I think to your point about how 181 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: many moms are on the platform, you know, as we 182 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: go into talking about you know, vaccine rollout for COVID 183 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: and things like that, it is a lot of times 184 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: moms who are making health decisions for the family. And 185 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: so if moms are being inundated with really harmful health 186 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: misinformation on this platform where they think they're going to 187 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: be safe. It is a real problem that could could 188 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: have a real human cost. And I think, yeah, the 189 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: person scamming fake Gucci belt on the street, other than 190 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: not giving Gucci more money, which frankly I'm not really 191 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: that mad at. You know, we have to look at 192 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: the kind of harm that these platforms can really be 193 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: responsible for pushing on communities who are oftentimes already marginalized 194 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: or underrepresented. That's exactly right the day of the insurrection, 195 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: as pro Trump mobs swarmed the capital, one of whom 196 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: was wearing a shirt reading Camp Auschwitz. Microsoft owned tech 197 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: firm get hub fired a Jewish employee for posting stay safe, Homies, 198 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: there's Nazis about in a company slack channel. The company 199 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: eventually reversed our decision and apologized to the employee after 200 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: an investigation, but even still, it establishes a pretty concerning 201 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: dynamic when we're marginalized employees are punished for correctly identifying 202 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: white supremacists. EFOMA can relate you were actually punished for 203 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: speaking up about white supremacists. Yeah, and not only punished, 204 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: I was personally targeted. So the story I was referring 205 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: to earlier, the white supremacist colleague who wasn't someone I 206 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: worked with closely, but worked on the engineering side of 207 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: trust and safety, I saw a message that I posted 208 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: in exactly the right place for me to post. It 209 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a general conversation area, but I posted that a 210 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: pretty popular white supremacist was in fact a white supremacist. 211 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: I linked to the content that violated our policies that 212 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: was of concern, and then I put in a note 213 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: as well that the platform or the folks working on 214 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: trust and safety should be mindful of these terms, like, 215 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: here's a set of terms that are dog whistles unless 216 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: you're a white supremacist or unless you're the target of 217 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: the white supremacist harm. And these are what we need 218 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: to look out for, because these folks aren't going to 219 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: title their videos on YouTube as Hey, I'm a white 220 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: supremacist and this is my view. It's going to say 221 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: something about population control around uh, white replacement theory, which 222 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: a lot of folks are not aware of, but is 223 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: a huge red flag and is a calling card for 224 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: many white supremacists. A few months after posting that warning, 225 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: sharing the context and the content, which was my job 226 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: as the public policy person who helped inform content safety 227 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: decisions that we made. I was then um docks. This 228 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: person docks me and two other women, another one who 229 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: is a black woman, and a woman that he a 230 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: white woman. He assumed to be a lesbian UM and 231 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: we only know that because of the comments that came 232 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: up on Gateway Pundit and in other places where we 233 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: had been targeted, and for me, I guess he took 234 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: a particular disliking to me and so shared my phone 235 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: number as well and all of the identifying information that 236 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: you would need to find me. At this point, I 237 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: had already separate from all of this and separate from 238 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: the work I was doing. I had already raised paid 239 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: discrimination complaints with UH the appropriate leadership at the company, 240 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: my manager, managers, manager, HR, etcetera, and was getting serious 241 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: pushback from them. And so then when I was docked, 242 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: the lack of response from them to take care of 243 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: my safety to address what was going on was so 244 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: apparently part of the retaliation that I had already been 245 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: facing on the paid discrimination side UH that it was 246 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: pretty traumatizing being at a company where it was clear 247 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: I was not safe, was not necessarily safe at home 248 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: because it's not very difficult to track someone down once 249 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: you have enough information. Uh, and then was also dealing 250 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: with everything else at the same time. So I really 251 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: related to the get hub story because of the docks 252 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: sne that I experienced and the lack of RESPONSI Swee 253 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: Foma was facing egregious targeted harassment from her own colleagues 254 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: in retaliation for her work that garnered pinterest so much 255 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: positive attention, but she got other kinds of internal pushback 256 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: to let sack a quick break and we're back. In 257 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: an earlier episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet, 258 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: we explored how the racial justice group Color of Change 259 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: advocated for Pinterest to change their policies around slave plantations 260 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: that were being advertised as romantic wedding venues on the 261 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: plan form. The company was widely celebrated for this change, 262 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: which was led by Epoma, but that didn't keep them 263 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: from retaliating against her for it. Later on that same year, UH, 264 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: Color of Change had come to me because I was 265 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: the liaison with outside groups academics and civil society on 266 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: content safety issues. They had come to me sharing that 267 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: they were still seeing slave plantations pop up as wedding 268 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: venues and suggestions for weddings. If you know Pinterest or 269 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: you know someone who uses it, the number one use 270 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: of the platform might be planning a wedding or preparing 271 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: for some sort of celebration. And I agreed with them, 272 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: it's completely inappropriate that the platform would be pushing concentration camps, 273 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: which is what they were, and torture sites as a 274 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: celebration venue. And so I brought it to our content 275 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: safety team with my recommendation, shared exactly what color of 276 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: change had shared with me, and then I got pushed 277 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: back from UM, the head of that team, particularly the 278 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: head of content policy, who happens to still be there 279 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: and still speaking on behalf of the company. UM. What 280 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: I later found out was that she was married on 281 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: a plantation that she never shared that in all of 282 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: the pushback that I got, But she ended up working 283 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: with my manager, who had already been retaliating against me, 284 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: to ding me on my performance review. So even though 285 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: Pinterest ended up doing exactly what I recommended, ended up 286 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: getting praised in forty plus headlines because of the decision 287 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: to stop promoting slave plantations and the decisions that I 288 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: had pushed to be made. I was ding on my 289 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: performance review, which affected my pay Wow. First of all, 290 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: the revealed that this woman had her own I mean, 291 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't episode about We spoke to Jade 292 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: from Color of Change in an earlier episode about Pinterest 293 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: in the decision to not have not promote plantation weddings, 294 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: and just like what you said, right, these companies get 295 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: to enjoy the positive press that makes them look like 296 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: a woke company or a company that really cares. Like 297 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: I heard so many times people say, oh, Pinterest is 298 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: a company that has a you know, like they are 299 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: a company that prizes like empathy, YadA, YadA, YadA. And 300 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: then to hear the inner workings of how this happened 301 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: is so it's such a disconnect. I feel, it really is, 302 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, it really illustrates how so many different levels 303 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: can come together to suppress and push out and harm 304 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: a black woman for doing her job right, Like this 305 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: was your job. It's not like it's not like you 306 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: were overstepping bounces. Is what you were hired to do. 307 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: And I also think this, you know, and this is 308 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: the conversation that I feel comes up again and again 309 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: and again where black women are punished for like doing 310 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: the right thing, for practicing public courage, public morality, for 311 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: doing their jobs trying to make things safer or better. 312 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: Someone else gets to enjoy the benefits of that work. 313 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: But that work is at best, you know, unappreciated, underappreciated, 314 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: at worst, dangerous and risky for your own personal safety. 315 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: Right like you, Like you did this work of making 316 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: pinterest a safer, better platform at great personal cost and 317 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: at great risks your own safety. Yep. And and all 318 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: of those things happened. Not only was I paid unfairly 319 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: and I had to pursue legal action because of that, 320 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: I was then also my life was starting, So yeah, 321 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: I got all of it while I was there. And 322 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: people often like to call black women canaries in the 323 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: coal mine, or whatever term they want to use. But 324 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: I would like to just do my job, get paid fairly, 325 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: and not be put in danger for for doing the 326 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: right thing for a company. I mean, uh, something like 327 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: half more than half of the articles that were written 328 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: about pinterest in the month before the public offering which 329 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: happened in April referenced my work. So not only did 330 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: my work have value to the actual users of the 331 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: platform end up pushing Facebook and others to have to 332 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: respond about why they weren't addressing health misinformation, particularly around vaccines. 333 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: And remember that was during a different health issue, a 334 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: measles outbreak measles outbreaks on the East and West Coast. 335 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: Uh So, not only did it have that sort of impact, 336 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: which is a slam dunk if you're in a policy space, 337 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: but it also had material benefit to the company in 338 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: the form of the I p O. And I still 339 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: was not treated fairly. Yeah, and the company still hasn't 340 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: actually acknowledged that anything they did in my case was wrong. 341 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: You see, like someone who has a lot of peace 342 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: for how horribly you were treated, I've had a lot 343 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: of rage as well. You know, I really do believe 344 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: in karma, and I believe it's not just you, It'll 345 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: be the next seven generations that are hit with whatever 346 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: evil you put out into the world. And so I 347 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: take the long view. I'm like Aria from Game of Thrones, 348 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: have a list. I'm making my way through the list, 349 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: but you'll get yours eventually. That's that's my long view. 350 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: And then also I'm a student of history and political science. 351 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: None of this is new. What I'm dealing with is 352 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: not new, It's not unique to my situation. Does it suck, Yes, 353 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: hasn't been miserable. Yes, I've paid physical consequences for it 354 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: because my act will health was impaired for the two 355 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: plus years I was in a legal fight with them. 356 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: But like I'm good at the end of the day, 357 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm at peace with every single decision I've made. I've 358 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: never lied about what I experienced there, and so when 359 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: they're out here lying about what they did to me 360 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: um and getting called out on lies, that is enough 361 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: for me. He Foma publicly resigned from Pinterest this past 362 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: summer when racial justice protests were happening all over the 363 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: globe and brands were rushing to put out statements in 364 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: support for Black Lives Matter. She tweeted, I'm an alum 365 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: of Yale, Google, Facebook, Washington Post, Tech, etcetera, and recently 366 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: decided to leave Pinterest, which just declared solidarity with Black 367 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: Lives Matter. What a joke. As a black woman, seeing 368 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Pinterest middle of the night Black Employees Matter statement made 369 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: me scratch my head after I just fought for a 370 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: full year to be paid and leveled fairly, a year 371 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: in which I was docked by a white male colleague. 372 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: He shared my cell phone number, my photo, and my 373 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: name was a violently racist, misogynistic part of the internet, 374 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: followed by a dangerously inadequate response from Pinterest. I continued 375 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: to serve as the leader and spokesperson for pinterest biggest 376 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: public policy wins, kept all of the above quiet for 377 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: quote professionalism in the hope that Pinterest would do the 378 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: right thing. Instead, they doubled down on retaliation. After a 379 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: FOMA left pinterest, former CEO Francois Brower, who was white, 380 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: accused Pinterest of gender discrimination. In December, Pinterest paid Brower 381 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: twenty two point five million dollars to settle her lawsuit. 382 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: She says she was encouraged to speak out against the 383 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: discrimination she based at Pinterest after a FOMA and Erica 384 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: Shimizu Banks, another black former Pinterest employee, spoke out first. 385 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: Only they never got any big payout, if I remember correctly, 386 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: you didn't even get a year of severance from pinterest. 387 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: That's correct, and laid the groundwork she was not going 388 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: to speak up publicly, and the actual in the medium 389 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: post where she didn't reference to us when she first 390 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: went public um but she herself said that women had 391 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: come to her over the course of her career and 392 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: she actually had not been a helpful ally to other women. 393 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: So I think she said everything. Um, but yeah, no, 394 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: I I what was crazy about that situation is people 395 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: got to see in real time what it means to 396 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: lead a movement and then be left out of whatever 397 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: progress comes. I mean, when you think about me too, 398 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: who has me too actually benefited? If not white women, 399 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: maybe maybe in a sense all women, but it is 400 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: most benefited white women. And yet it was started by 401 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Toronto Burke, a black woman. So this is not it's 402 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: not new, it's not I didn't speak up because I 403 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: expected them to do the right thing. I I from 404 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: the jump expected them not. I expected them to denigrate 405 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: my name, my experience, which they've done all of that, uh, 406 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: and then not to pay me what they owe me. 407 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: But seeing it all happen in front of everyone, I 408 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: think was a lesson, not only for the folks who 409 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: were watching it and just expecting that the right thing 410 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 1: would happen, but then also some of the reporters who 411 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: worked on the story, and we're the very first ones 412 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: to reach out and be like, how is it possible? 413 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: That you like, I literally remember talking to you and 414 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: then talking to her several months later. You are the 415 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: reason why she came forward. You are the reason why 416 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: she had a strong case, and then this happens. Yeah, 417 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: for better or for worse. It always seems that black 418 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: women we are the ones build, like we're the ones building, 419 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: and then other people are the ones who are benefiting. 420 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: And I think I see that in politics, I see 421 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: that in tech. I see that in so many different 422 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: It just seems to be you know, I at this 423 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: point it almost you know it is what it is, 424 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: But like that seems to be our lot on this 425 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: on this earth, like building things that we then don't 426 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: get to to use ourselves, right, Like I think it 427 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: was this writer Clarissa Brooks who once wrote, like I, 428 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: as a black woman, I don't want my back to 429 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: be used as a bridge to a world and I'll 430 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: never see, right, It's like I feel like I feel 431 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: like that is our lot, and I see it, particularly 432 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: in tech, but in so many different different avenues. And 433 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: that's why even though uh, this was painful, personally painful 434 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: of course, to have been the one who experienced all 435 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: of this and then have someone else benefit from it. 436 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: It was instructive for everyone to see it and to 437 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: see the timeline and how quickly and the different win 438 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: which they responded to her. And then also I think 439 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: it was a helpful lesson for people who considered themselves 440 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: allies to see as well, because there were a lot 441 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: of people who ink of themselves as allies who saw 442 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: it and we're like, wait, what, how is it possible 443 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: that this is happening. This happens all of the time. 444 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: You just don't usually see the dollar amount that's attached 445 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: to the progress that certain people get and others do not. 446 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 447 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: I do have this feeling that there is this underlying 448 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: assumption that black women like like tech and the internet 449 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: on all of these domains, or it's like not our 450 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: rightful domain, so we should not we are not able 451 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: to expect experiences that are not harmful in these spaces, 452 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: and I think for me, it's kind of this vicious 453 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: cycle where that dynamic is mirrored at tech companies, and 454 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: so black women engineers, black women technologists are being are 455 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: pushed out of these companies, are not are not being 456 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: listened to, and thus these platforms are not able to 457 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: to prioritize our safety. So it's like, I feel like we, 458 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: in my mind, will never address the true harm that 459 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: platforms have been responsible for if these tech companies cannot 460 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: figure out a way to really have black women be 461 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: meaningfully centered and heard, because it just seems like this 462 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: like horrible cycle. I'm not sure if this makes any sense, 463 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: but um no, it makes complete sense. And it's not 464 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: a lack of figuring it out. It's a lack of 465 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: desire they I said to I think it was Charlie 466 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: worzel row column a few months ago about Facebook and 467 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: it may be being a lost cause, and I said, 468 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: platforms reflect the people who lead them. That you're only 469 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: seeing on Facebook, on Twitter, on pinters wherever, what the 470 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: people who lead those platforms want you to see. And 471 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: so if they're operating in a white supremacist structure and 472 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: worldview and that is where their actual interests align, that's 473 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: what we're going to see on the platform. So none 474 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: of this is by accident, None of this is all 475 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: of a sudden out of control. This is exactly what 476 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: they designed, working in the ways that they wanted to work. Yeah, 477 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: it always seems to come back to that question of 478 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: is this an issue of they can't fix this or 479 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: an issue of they won't fix this. It seems like 480 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: tech leaders have made some deliberate choices about what to prioritize, 481 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 1: and the example I it makes usually the audiences that 482 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: I give this or share this analogy with our health focus, 483 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: public health professionals, experts, etcetera. And I say, if you 484 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: want to understand how non accidental any of this is, 485 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: think about pornography. How often do you randomly encounter porn 486 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: on Facebook or Twitter or YouTube or wherever. Not that often, 487 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: not often, It's not often that happened, and yet you 488 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: see misinformation every other post, you see hate every other post. 489 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: There's a financial reason for that. Advertisers have said they 490 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: don't want pornography next to their content, and so what 491 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: have platforms done poured every single resource into making sure 492 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: that's the case. They've made a choice here, and the 493 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: choice is not on the side of safety. I would 494 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: argue that if it's legal consenting adult pornography, that is 495 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: way less harmful to randomly encounter on a platform than 496 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: health misinformation or Nazi content. You have to ask some 497 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: questions about priorities. You really do yep. And the priorities 498 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: are clear in all of our experiences on these platforms. 499 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 1: I think a lot of black women on the Internet 500 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: have just come to internalize this idea that when it 501 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: comes to experiences online or on technology or on the Internet, 502 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: we just cannot expect to have experiences that feel safe. 503 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: And I want to get us to a place where 504 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: we can rethink the kinds of experiences that we actually 505 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: can't expect from the Internet and from tech spaces. I agree, 506 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: and that's the basis of all of the work that 507 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: I have done, the work that I'm doing now UM 508 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: through my consulting firm on tech accountability, whether it's in 509 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: the health misinformation space or whether it's on the organizing 510 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 1: side and providing protections for whistle bars UM. And I 511 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: think it's it's a conversation that it's unfortunate that we 512 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: have to bear the burden of since we're the people 513 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: who are harmed by it. But even just a few 514 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: days ago, I was part of a conversation on Clubhouse 515 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: UM around content moderation and around the decisions that platforms 516 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: made to be platform Donald Trump. And before we went 517 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: into that conversation, I sent a note to everyone on 518 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: the panel saying clubhouse is a place that I am 519 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: not frequenting by choice because black women are often targeted 520 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: and people use very loud whistles basically just short of 521 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: using the N word and using straight up misogynistic language. 522 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: But there's a ton of that going on, and I 523 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: put the onus on everyone on the channel to if 524 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: that happened in the course of our conversation, from anyone 525 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: from the audience, to not make it be my responsibility 526 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: to be the only one to say something, and every 527 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: single one was was great and said absolutely, of course, 528 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: But that should be the way that we're setting up conversations. 529 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be the responsibility of the person who is 530 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: most likely to be harmed to say, like, hey, I 531 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: hate to be the one to bring the mood down, 532 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: but this could happen, so can we please watch out 533 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: for it. God, I have been that person a thousand times, 534 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like what you were saying. It 535 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: just sucks, like you you want to you want to 536 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: do your job and be paid what you're owned for 537 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: doing that work. I feel that black women are not 538 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: often afforded the ability to just do your work and 539 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: keep your head down. It's like you have to take 540 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: on all this often unpaid might I add extra labor, 541 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: extra energy, extra everything, just to exist in do your 542 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: job and put your message out there. Really, it is exhausting. 543 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: I know exactly that that feeling of like, oh God, 544 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be at to have to be the person 545 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: that raises this again and like everyone's gonna grown. I 546 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: just know that feeling, and it sucks. Yeah, it does. 547 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: What do you think platforms or policy policy folks or 548 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: any anybody who has power decision makers? What should folks 549 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 1: be doing to keep this and misinformation off of platforms. 550 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: I think it's great that the incoming administration is passing 551 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: the bar that was on the ground from the Trump 552 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: administration for diversity and so at least they've cleared that 553 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: low bar and standard. But I am not seeing enough 554 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: um black women in positions of leadership when it comes 555 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: to misinformation and tech policy specifically. UM. I was encouraged 556 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: by the science I think it's some sort of science 557 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: focused department within the administration that was announced recently that 558 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: a Laundron Nelson will be on That's incredible. Uh, But 559 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: on the tech side, it cannot just be pulling that 560 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: expertise of people like Eric Schmidt and other white tech 561 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: executives to then reform the same industry that they've made 562 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: billions off of. Like, that's just not how it works. 563 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: That's not how it should work. UM and I and 564 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: I think it's important to pull academics, but you also 565 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: need practitioners who have experienced things on the insides of 566 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: these platforms to be informing the decisions and any regulation, 567 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: shan or reform that comes as a result. So much 568 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: of the infrastructure of what we rely on to make 569 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: the Internet safer and better. So people who are fighting 570 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: disinformation and misinformation have been for a long time. So 571 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: much of that infrastructure is Black women. What is it 572 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: like to know that we have such a big role 573 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,959 Speaker 1: in doing a lot of the work that is making 574 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: the Internet safer and better for everybody? I mean, I 575 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: it's tough because on the one hand, when we when 576 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: progress is made that we push for everyone benefits um 577 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: and often we benefit the least. And so it is 578 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: it's just a role that many black women have taken 579 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: on to protect themselves and our communities. On the other hand, 580 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't blame any black women who are like, you 581 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: know what, this is not my fight, this is not 582 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: my battle. I'm tired. I'm just trying to live during 583 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: a pandemic. I'm trying to feed my kids. I'm trying 584 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: to feed myself. I'm trying to take a damn NAP like. 585 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: I ascribe wholeheartedly to the NAP Ministry and the work 586 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: that the NAP Ministry has been doing, because I think 587 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: sometimes we have to say, you know what I told you, 588 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: so now I'm going to rest. That's it. I'm done, 589 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm done, I'm bound out, And so I allow the 590 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: space for that at any point while also hoping that 591 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: when black women say, you know what, this is work 592 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: that I want to do, that we're uplifted and we're empowered. 593 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: The flip side of that is making sure that allies 594 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: are supposed allies are not then saying, oh my gosh, 595 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: you're so good at this, you need to be the 596 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: one leading it. No no, after uh the fifth and 597 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: the results in Georgia when everyone is posting about and 598 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: not black women because black women were not doing this, 599 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: but when everyone else was posting about what Stacy Abrams 600 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: needs to be doing now if she wants to go 601 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: to a spa for the next month, for the next decade. 602 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: That is her decision, and that's what she should be 603 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 1: empowered to do. And those same people trying to demand 604 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: labor of her should donate so that she can have 605 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: her spa time for as long as she wants like 606 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: That is the kind of ally ship that I want 607 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: to see, not just finding new work for us to 608 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: do when we're the only ones paying the price for 609 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:28,439 Speaker 1: the work. For i Foma, the work continues. Just last week, 610 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: she introduced the Silent No More Act, new legislation she 611 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: released with California State Senator Connie Lava that would prevent 612 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,959 Speaker 1: the use of non disclosure agreements or n d as 613 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: in workplace situations involving discrimination and harassment of any kind. 614 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: When he Foma spoke out about what she experienced at Pinterest, 615 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: she was breaking an NDA, and because the current legislation 616 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: only protects employees from speaking out of its gender discrimination, 617 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: not race based discrimination, Pinterest could have sued her for 618 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: speaking up. I Foma is working to change the future 619 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: to build one. We're marginalized people don't have to pay 620 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: such a huge personal cost for trying to build a 621 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: better world. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us 622 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing 623 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. We'd love 624 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: to hear from you at Hello at tangoi dot com. 625 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: Dis Informed is brought to you by There Are No 626 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I Heart 627 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: Radio and Unboss Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. 628 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer, and engineer. Michaelmato is 629 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For more 630 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 631 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.