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Speaker 1: First contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot

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Speaker 1: Dot Dot Media and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We don't travel anymore. And it seemed impossible if you'd

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Speaker 2: told anybody on February first that you will not be

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Speaker 2: on a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when,

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Speaker 2: people would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The

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Speaker 2: impossible has become possible, right, So we know how quickly

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Speaker 2: things can change, but you have to have the will

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Speaker 2: to do it. So I think that what these companies

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Speaker 2: and what these powerful people to your point, who are

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Speaker 2: disproportionately white and male, are going to have to grapple

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Speaker 2: with is this isn't working. And our employees are telling

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Speaker 2: us it's not working. The press ishilliness, it's not working,

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Speaker 2: the protests are telling it's not working. Right, this isn't working.

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Speaker 2: They realize that the time is passed where they can say,

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Speaker 2: do we think we should act? And the answer is

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Speaker 2: we have to act. There is a business imperative, and

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Speaker 2: I think that there is a moral imperative. And I

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Speaker 2: think that Silicon Valley can't sit this out any longer.

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Speaker 1: I love technology, I love Silicon Valley. I've spent my

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Speaker 1: career covering it. I'm also frustrated sometimes it feels like

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Speaker 1: we're asking the same questions over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: I've known Sarah Kunst as a person who will say

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Speaker 1: things that other people won't say, who will call out

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Speaker 1: inappropriate behavior. She's quick to speak, not just tweet. She's

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Speaker 1: been leading a discussion on the unforst situations for minorities

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Speaker 1: in tech for a long time. She's been a big

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Speaker 1: supporter of funding women, and I know her as someone

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Speaker 1: who's made it her life's work to change those things

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Speaker 1: for the better. My question right now that I want

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Speaker 1: to ask everyone in tech, while there is momentum, how

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Speaker 1: do we make sure we finally start making the necessary

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Speaker 1: changes in the tech industry that it's not just about

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Speaker 1: changing our profile photos, but it's about changing the makeup

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Speaker 1: of the boards, making companies more diverse, changing legislation, and

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Speaker 1: putting our money where our mouth is. I know these

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Speaker 1: are times of listening and learning. We all have to

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Speaker 1: do a better job of informing ourselves and listening to

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Speaker 1: others and changing our behaviors. So let's listen to Sarah Kunst.

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Speaker 1: I'm Laur Siegel, and this is first contact. First of all,

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Speaker 1: it is so nice to see. I know, it's so

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Speaker 1: nice to see your fake goodness. So I wanted to

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Speaker 1: start by just talking about our first contact. Right, So

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Speaker 1: first of all, for folks listening, like, we've known each

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Speaker 1: other for a really long time, especially in tech years,

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Speaker 1: Like do you remember our first contact.

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Speaker 2: We've known each other I think for two recessions now,

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Speaker 2: which is quite a long time.

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Speaker 1: Oh when you say it like that, it sounds so

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Speaker 1: so long, it sounds so long.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I remember, you know, back when we

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Speaker 2: were both living in New York and we were sort

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Speaker 2: of young, young people just starting out in the tech industry.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's one of those things where the

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Speaker 2: tech industry there at the time was so small that

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Speaker 2: you know, if you went to three parties in two bars,

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Speaker 2: you knew everybody, and so it was a fun time

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Speaker 2: because it really did feel like a community.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I remember meeting you it actually that it's

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Speaker 1: such an interesting thing. You brought up the recession. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about this in prior episodes, Like there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of innovation happening and coming out of the recession, right,

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of really interesting companies that were

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Speaker 1: coming out of it. And there was this movement in

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Speaker 1: New York because people always think San Francisco tech, but

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Speaker 1: there was this movement in New York tech and you

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Speaker 1: had a lot of founders just going and coding different

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Speaker 1: apps and being creative and doing all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 1: And there was a very small group of people. And

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Speaker 1: I remember meeting you then and it was that was

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Speaker 1: our first content. I think it was at a party

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Speaker 1: in Soho, not to be specific. So that was cool.

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Speaker 2: The only place to meet anybody in twenty ten was

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Speaker 2: a party in Soho.

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Speaker 1: Right right, and by the way, like those seem like

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Speaker 1: happy times. And I've been wanting to have you on

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Speaker 1: for a while because you've done so much work I

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Speaker 1: think as an entrepreneur and as an investor too, and

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Speaker 1: talking about a lot of issues and something I've always

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Speaker 1: liked about you, Sarah, and to give I always like

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Speaker 1: to kind of paint a picture of the people I

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Speaker 1: interview for our listeners, Like you're the person that says

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Speaker 1: the unpopular thing or not the unpopular thing. You're just

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Speaker 1: like the person who says things out loud. You will

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Speaker 1: say things when other people won't. You will call people out.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about us, you know, being in

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Speaker 1: tech back in the day, like you have said things

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Speaker 1: to investors who have behaved inappropriately. You have been talking

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Speaker 1: about how things are unfair for minorities and tech for

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Speaker 1: a very long time, and so it seems appropriate for

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Speaker 1: me to have you on now, but I should have

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Speaker 1: had you on before. So I'm really happy to be

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Speaker 1: speaking to you right now because what an extraordinary moment

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Speaker 1: we're in. Yeah, thank you with everything going on. First

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Speaker 1: of all, how are you feeling about everything? How are

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Speaker 1: you doing?

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Speaker 2: You're in San Francisco, I mean San Francisco, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean it. You know, it has been an absolutely insane

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks on top of an insane you know,

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Speaker 2: a couple of months, and when it comes to, you know,

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Speaker 2: issues around racism in America, and on top of it,

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Speaker 2: on top of an insane you know, four hundred years right, So,

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Speaker 2: on one hand, what's happening right now feels unbelievable. And

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, do you remember that America is

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Speaker 2: a country that started out with you know, started out

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Speaker 2: with genocide and then moved to slavery. And you're like, actually,

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Speaker 2: I guess these protests kind of makes sense, right. It's

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Speaker 2: probably more a question of certainly, you know, we saw

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Speaker 2: some of this stuff in the nineteen sixties, but it's

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Speaker 2: probably more of a question of why did it take

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Speaker 2: so long instead of why is it happening now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean I've always looked at things through

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Speaker 1: the lens of tech, and like I had this moment

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Speaker 1: where I was looking at all these venture capitalists we

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Speaker 1: know and a lot of people we know who are

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about black Lives matter? And I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy to see people out there and post and voicing

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Speaker 1: their support. But my question to you would be, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's so many issues and tech right, and there are

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Speaker 1: so many larger issues around this. The numbers and tech

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Speaker 1: are pretty terrible for minorities. I think I was looking

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Speaker 1: and doing research for this. Someone from Upfront Ventures posted

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Speaker 1: blacks are underrepresented in the executive ranks of startups by

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Speaker 1: eighty two percent. More than seventy five percent of all

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Speaker 1: rounds raised go to all white founding teams. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: my first reaction as I was watching this whole movement

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Speaker 1: happening in tech and watching a lot of the people

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Speaker 1: I know changing some of their profiles and posting a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff, was this is great change your profile,

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Speaker 1: but also change your boards, change all these other things.

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Speaker 1: And so how are you feeling about I mean, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about stuff happening in your own backyard?

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Speaker 1: Do you think things will change because of this?

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been drawing a lot of comparisons to

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Speaker 2: the Me Too movement and what happened in tech then,

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Speaker 2: and you know, having been very involved in that, It's

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Speaker 2: one of those things where, you know, the Reverend Jesse

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Speaker 2: Jackson likes to say that in moments like this, they're

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Speaker 2: kind of tree shakers and jelly makers, right. So there

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Speaker 2: are people who shake the tree, the people out protesting,

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Speaker 2: the people who are saying this is absolutely like, this

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Speaker 2: is We're done. Right, It's been four hundred years, we

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Speaker 2: are not doing this anymore. This is done, and this

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Speaker 2: being you know, racism and the systemic discrimination against people

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Speaker 2: of color, particularly obviously black people. Right. So those are

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Speaker 2: the people who are out there shaking the trees. And

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Speaker 2: then the jelly makers are the people who aren't necessarily

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Speaker 2: always on the front lines protesting, but who are sitting

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Speaker 2: there saying, you know, what can we do to change legislation,

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Speaker 2: What can we do to change hiring practices? What can

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Speaker 2: we do to make our boards murdivers, to make the

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Speaker 2: companies we invest in more diverse, to make the investor

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Speaker 2: based mortiverse.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And we know from research that whatever your investor demographics

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Speaker 2: look like, your investments tend to look like.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So if funds hire women, then they invest in more women.

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Speaker 2: And I think almost no funds, no large scale funds,

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Speaker 2: have a mandate when they hire a woman, saying, of

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Speaker 2: course you're supposed to invest in women. It's just that

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Speaker 2: we tend to gravitate towards what we know. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: we know that that works. And we know that there

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Speaker 2: are certain groups in tech that are incredibly underrepresented, right.

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Speaker 2: Black people incredibly underrepresented, you know, Hispanic people incredibly underrepresented, right.

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Speaker 2: Native Americans are underrepresented to the point where they barely

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Speaker 2: exist in tech, right. And so we know that these

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Speaker 2: groups are underrepresented, and we also know from data that

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Speaker 2: if we have more of them around the investing table, right,

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Speaker 2: that will invest in more of them because there's not

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Speaker 2: really a lot. There's certainly not a lack of talent,

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Speaker 2: and maybe five ten years ago there is a lack

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Speaker 2: of founders in these demographics because they were very reasonably

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Speaker 2: looking at you know, the inability to get funded and

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Speaker 2: saying maybe I don't want to start a company, right,

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Speaker 2: maybe I should be a lawyer, doctor, whatever. Now we're

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Speaker 2: seeing something different, and we're seeing that there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of founders of these demographics who are brilliant, amazing.

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Speaker 2: They're coming from top schools, they're coming out of top companies.

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Speaker 2: You know, they are ready to go. They just deeply

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Speaker 2: struggle to get money raised.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess I think about it, and

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Speaker 1: I think about the circles that we've been in in

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, and I think about the rooms that we've

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Speaker 1: had the privilege of being in and.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes misfortune of being in.

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Speaker 1: But yes, right right, I mean, actually we should also

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Speaker 1: we can have that whole conversation. I mean, you're you

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Speaker 1: are one of the women that called out an investor

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Speaker 1: for bad behavior and harassment and this started like a whole,

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Speaker 1: a whole thing where a lot of other women spoke

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Speaker 1: out against it. So yes, that that as well. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we have access to the room. But you're a

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Speaker 1: woman of color. I mean, there are not a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, you know that look like you in the

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Speaker 1: room all the time, you know, And so I wonder,

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Speaker 1: like it is a boys club. And so while there's

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Speaker 1: this momentum right now and this feels different hopefully, I mean, god,

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Speaker 1: I want there to be changed, like, you know, specifically

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Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley. You know, I get frustrated, right, like

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Speaker 1: how many times have we heard the company line? And

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Speaker 1: even as you know, as someone of privilege and as

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Speaker 1: someone in the media, and I have a responsibility too,

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Speaker 1: like what can we actually do to just not hear

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Speaker 1: the company line over and over again so we can

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Speaker 1: get more more people actually getting funded, more companies from

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Speaker 1: diverse perspectives. You know, what do you think specifically, are

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Speaker 1: like some action items that we could do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the great thing is right that that's

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Speaker 2: easy and it's easy, but it doesn't mean that it

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Speaker 2: is simple, right, and so it's easy and that I

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Speaker 2: love to use the example of crypto, right, I was

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Speaker 2: really early in bitcoin, and you know, I love to

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Speaker 2: use as an example. Where before bitcoin was invented right

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Speaker 2: by whoever Satoshi is, it didn't exist. And then now

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Speaker 2: a decade later, almost every big fund has a crypto

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Speaker 2: expert on staff, has invested in crypto companies, has made

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Speaker 2: a bunch of money, right, And so black people have

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Speaker 2: certainly existed right far longer than bitcoin. And so the

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Speaker 2: idea that you can't go out and find a source

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Speaker 2: of viewpoints, right worldview and voices that you haven't already

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Speaker 2: had in your fund or in your company, and that

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Speaker 2: you can't bring them in and that you can't empower

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Speaker 2: them to do great work and give them real capital

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Speaker 2: is demonstrably false, because we've seen people do that in

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Speaker 2: crypto right. People woke up in maybe twenty thirteen and said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: crypto's a real thing. We're going to go out, We're

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Speaker 2: going to you know, do some listening. We're going to

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Speaker 2: learn about it, we're going to talk to experts, we're

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Speaker 2: going to get to know people in this space. We're

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Speaker 2: going to make some small bets, and then we're going

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Speaker 2: to make some large bets, and we're going to bring

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Speaker 2: people in to do this full time. And they did

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Speaker 2: it right. Within a year or two and twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: almost no major fund at a crypto investor, and now,

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Speaker 2: you know, sit by twenty eighteen, almost every fund did.

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Speaker 2: So if you can make that kind of change in

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Speaker 2: that short amount of time, take that playbook right that

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Speaker 2: you just ran. This wasn't twenty years ago. This was

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Speaker 2: five years ago, three years ago, and go and do

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Speaker 2: it around diversity. And we saw some of this post

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Speaker 2: me too, where companies said, oh, should we hire women?

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Speaker 2: The answer is well, yes, right, because there's really only

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Speaker 2: two answers to this. You either fundamentally truly believe that

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Speaker 2: only white men are capable of greatness, in which case

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Speaker 2: you're probably not listening to this podcast and please stop

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Speaker 2: listening to this podcast, or you are acknowledging that if

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Speaker 2: you're only working with white men, but there's greatness everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and there's talent everywhere, that you're leaving money on the table. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm a venture capitalist. I'm not a full time activist, right.

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Speaker 2: I am a venture capitalist. It is my job to

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Speaker 2: take capital and make more money with it. And so

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Speaker 2: if I am leaving money on the table, I'm not

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Speaker 2: doing my job.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we've got to take a quick break to hear

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors more with my guest after the break.

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Speaker 1: I look at even the controversy of Facebook right now.

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Speaker 1: I look at this idea that there's this controversial decision

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Speaker 1: over free speech and decision that Zuckerberg made, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are talking about it and saying a

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Speaker 1: lot of employees are beginning to speak out against it.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting, and I think it was reported that

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Speaker 1: that decision was made and there was only one person

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Speaker 1: of color in the room, So there's a lack of

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Speaker 1: diversity of perspective. And you know, I guess, like this

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Speaker 1: isn't a news story. And the time that we've had

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Speaker 1: our quote first contact, Like how many times have we

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Speaker 1: had this conversation? But I guess that maybe is the point, right,

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Speaker 1: how many times do we have to have this conversation

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Speaker 1: because now there's real world impact and we're seeing it

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Speaker 1: trickle out in these ways that are in many cases

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Speaker 1: unhealthy for society. And so you know, what are you

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Speaker 1: hearing you talk to people? I feel like you're kind

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Speaker 1: of everyone's confessional and like everyone tells you kind of

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Speaker 1: like their war stories. I have all the tea, I

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Speaker 1: have all Yeah, you have like all the tea, Like, like,

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Speaker 1: what are you hearing like from people within these companies?

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Speaker 2: That's the thing, right, Like my like probably starting like

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Speaker 2: like Friday Saturday last week when you know this happened,

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Speaker 2: George Floyd was murdered, you know, like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: like less than two weeks ago, and it feels like

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Speaker 2: a thousand years ago, right, and since then that has

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Speaker 2: just you know, the the amount of phone calls, texts inbounds,

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Speaker 2: you know, emails and ask for what do we do?

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Speaker 2: What do we say?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I spent the weekend helping portfolio companies and my investors,

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Speaker 2: you know, craft their statements and you know, what do

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Speaker 2: we say? Who do we donate to? What do we do?

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Speaker 2: And the great news is there are things that people

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Speaker 2: can do right now, in this moment that make massive differences.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: If you donate to the Bail project, you are literally

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Speaker 2: bailing out a protester who is out there saying, you

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Speaker 2: know what, black lives matter, but they can't afford the

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Speaker 2: bail right, and so you're like helping in the moment.

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Speaker 2: And that is so important right when you say you know, hey,

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Speaker 2: black lives matter right on your Twitter account, your Instagram

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Speaker 2: or and your emails to your companies and in externally. Yes,

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Speaker 2: at some point it feels like every company is just

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Speaker 2: saying it to check the box. But let me be

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Speaker 2: very clear that that's an important box to check, right,

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Speaker 2: because you need to say, when we live in a

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Speaker 2: world where it is not inherently obvious to every human,

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Speaker 2: that black lives matter, right, that my life matters as

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Speaker 2: much as your life and as much as anyone else's life. Right,

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Speaker 2: then we need to say that. But that's the bare minimum.

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Speaker 2: That's where you start. And I'm glad that people are

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Speaker 2: donating and glad that people are like really honestly truly

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Speaker 2: saving lives and helping to fund policy changes in real time.

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Speaker 2: But that's a beginning point. That's not an end point, right,

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Speaker 2: because the policy changes need to happen. But on the

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Speaker 2: other hand, you know, there's a lot we can do

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Speaker 2: without policy. I work and venture capital, it's private equity, right,

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Speaker 2: we don't really interact with the government much. So what

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Speaker 2: the government's doing doesn't have a ton of impact on

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Speaker 2: our industry. It's what we choose to do with the money.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, I've getting a lot of inbounds

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Speaker 2: from people are saying what do we do? And I say,

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Speaker 2: you know, think about your hiring, right, think about your

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Speaker 2: companies hiring. Think about the board seats right that you

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Speaker 2: have and that you control. You know, what are you

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Speaker 2: doing to explicitly go out and look for this and

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Speaker 2: bring it in and support it? Right? And there's tons

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Speaker 2: of great organizations already, you know, on the education side,

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Speaker 2: like Code twenty forty and Black Girls Code, and you

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Speaker 2: know there are organizations like Black Women Talk Tech and

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Speaker 2: you know Black v See. There's not a lack of

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Speaker 2: these things, right, These people are not hard to find.

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Speaker 2: My LinkedIn inbox, you know, has been overflowing all week

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Speaker 2: as I've been having these conversations with various media outlets.

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Speaker 2: People can find you, right, People can find you, and

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Speaker 2: there's also endless resources online about how to do this.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, if you're a

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Speaker 2: venture fund or you know, an elite tech company and

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Speaker 2: you are like, we only really recruit from Stanford, MIT

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Speaker 2: and Harvard, great news, Stanford, MIT and Harvard have incredibly

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Speaker 2: diverse student bases right both at the undergrad and grad

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Speaker 2: student level. You can go find these people. And so

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Speaker 2: it's not that it's you know, I'm sure you remember

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Speaker 2: around me too. And even before that, right, there is

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Speaker 2: this whole sort of conversation nationally about where do we

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Speaker 2: find women, Like, buddy, women are over fifty percent of

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Speaker 2: the population. Where can she find women? Right? And so

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Speaker 2: like that's really the frustration is if you care about this,

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Speaker 2: go do this. If you don't care about this one

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Speaker 2: like I'll pray for you, but two then like just

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Speaker 2: just you know, get out of the way and let

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Speaker 2: people who do care do the work. And so, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm cautiously optimistic that some of the conversations that we've

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Speaker 2: seen in the last week and a half will turn

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Speaker 2: into you know, real changes in capital allocation, will turn

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Speaker 2: into real changes at who's on boards and who's hired

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Speaker 2: and also candidly who's fired. Because as we learned with

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Speaker 2: me too, it wasn't enough to say we're going to

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Speaker 2: bring more women in. You also have to have really

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Speaker 2: honest conversations with yourself and say, if I work at

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Speaker 2: a fund that has you know, one hundred people across

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Speaker 2: the investment and platforms, and I've never fired anybody for

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Speaker 2: being sexist and racist, right, but my team is incredibly undiverse,

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Speaker 2: Like you have to ask yourself, are you sure that

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Speaker 2: you understand what's really going on at your firm? Right?

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Speaker 2: If you work at a huge tech company and you've

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Speaker 2: never fired anybody for being sexist and racist, then we

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Speaker 2: definitely know right that you probably are not being you know,

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Speaker 2: vigilant enough about it. Because you have to create an

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Speaker 2: environment where not only do you get people to come

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Speaker 2: work with you or to come, you know, let you

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Speaker 2: invest in their companies, but where you also are supporting

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Speaker 2: them so that if there are people on your teams

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Speaker 2: who aren't making it welcome, who are doing, you know,

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Speaker 2: things that are incredibly painful to those people, that you're

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Speaker 2: weeding them out. It's sort of like when you paint

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Speaker 2: your house, right, you would never go to an old,

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Speaker 2: dirty house and just put a new code of paint

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Speaker 2: on it. You have to clean it off and you

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Speaker 2: have to like scrape it off and get the old

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Speaker 2: gross stuff off and then you can start fresh.

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Speaker 1: How do we like scrape off the paint in Silicon Valley?

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Speaker 2: I mean, that is a great question. The thing to remember, right,

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Speaker 2: is that Silicon Valley is not very old, like venture is.

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Speaker 2: An asset class is younger than our parents by far.

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Speaker 2: And so when you think about the fact that the

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Speaker 2: asset class itself is barely fifty years old, and that

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Speaker 2: these companies, right name a huge tech company and it

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Speaker 2: is younger than we are, right, most tech companies are

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Speaker 2: not old enough to drive yet, right, And so when

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Speaker 2: you think of it from that perspective, if new tech

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Speaker 2: companies can become unicorns, you know, in five years and

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Speaker 2: go from not existing, right. You and I remember when

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Speaker 2: we met in New York. Uber didn't really exist in

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Speaker 2: New York, right, and now it's like, you know, ten

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Speaker 2: thousand pound gorilla in the room. So if that can

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Speaker 2: happen in the span of one decade, then why not

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Speaker 2: make a conscious effort to say, I'm going to fund

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Speaker 2: a more diverse range of incredible founders so that the

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Speaker 2: next Uber doesn't you know, have one the same problems

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Speaker 2: that the first uber has had, but two that it

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Speaker 2: doesn't you know, have a lack of diversity, because we

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Speaker 2: know diversity drives better business returns and drives better business decisions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I keep thinking, you know, I love technology. I

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Speaker 1: love Silicon Valley. You know this was this is my career, right,

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Speaker 1: this is when we met. You know, I've spent my

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Speaker 1: career covering it. I am also disappointed in many ways

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Speaker 1: to oftentimes have to ask the same questions over and

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Speaker 1: over again. Like you can hear sirens outside my place

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Speaker 1: right now, because people are protesting on the street and

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Speaker 1: they are frustrated, and there are questions about free speech

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Speaker 1: that there are questions about whether these tech companies are

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Speaker 1: doing the right things, but most importantly, there are questions

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Speaker 1: about you know, like racism and the deep rooted pain

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Speaker 1: this country is in and you want and so I've

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Speaker 1: always looked at it, and this is my way into

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Speaker 1: it to saying, Okay, well, what I know best is

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Speaker 1: is Silicon Valley and a lot of these powerful, yeah,

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Speaker 1: mostly truthfully white men at the top. Right, what are

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Speaker 1: the questions, as someone who's been in a room with

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Speaker 1: a lot of these people too, what are the questions

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Speaker 1: we need to ask those people right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, you know, I have a call later

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Speaker 2: today with a CEO of a Silicon Valley Unicorn because I,

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Speaker 2: you know, use the product. I know the product well.

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Speaker 2: And I noticed that they hadn't said anything about what's

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Speaker 2: going on, and they had, you know, they were promoting

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Speaker 2: multiple webinars that they had coming up in the zoom age, right,

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Speaker 2: and they were all white men, and like, one, it's

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, we don't do that anymore, and two, like

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Speaker 2: this week, we're really not doing that this week? Right,

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Speaker 2: So I reached out and I was like, what's happening?

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's going to be an interesting conversation,

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Speaker 2: but my general guidance is we don't do this anymore.

432
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: And when you don't do something anymore, then you just

433
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 2: stop and then you start to think about what we

434
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 2: do do right, So, like we don't travel anymore. Right now,

435
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: we don't travel. And it seemed impossible if you'd told

436
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: anybody on February first that you will not be on

437
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: a plane from March fifteenth until god knows when, people

438
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: would have said that's impossible, that's impossible, possible. The impossible

439
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: has become possible, right so we know how quickly things

440
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: can change, but you have to have the will to

441
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: do it right. And so I think that what these

442
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: companies and what these powerful people to your point, who

443
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 2: are disproportionately white and male, are going to have to

444
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: grapple with it's far past time they grapple with it.

445
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 2: But I think what they're going to have to grapple

446
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: with is, Okay, this isn't working. And our employees are

447
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: telling us it's not working. The press is highness, it's

448
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: not working. The protests are telling it's not working. This

449
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 2: isn't working. And candidly, you know, even if they're not

450
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: out there protesting, they're feeling the pain too, and that

451
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: like most of the country right now in major cities

452
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: can't leave their homes at night. We are under curfews

453
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 2: in a way that like, this isn't something that I

454
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: think very many people at all are comfortable with having

455
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: happened in our countries. So when you think about it

456
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: that way, this is impacting you as well. Right, we

457
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 2: can hear sirens on one of our ends in the

458
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: background right now, So I think, sorry, everybody, Yeah, but

459
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 2: that's the thing, right, like, is it is not working right,

460
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: It's not working for this podcast, it's not working for us.

461
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 2: And so I hope that as that becomes apparent to them,

462
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: they realize that the time is passed where they can say,

463
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: do we think we should act? And the answer is

464
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: we have to act right. Our customers are not letting

465
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: us not act. The things that I've heard from various

466
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: reporters and friends, you know, like you said, I'm the

467
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 2: confessional booth of Silicon Valley. I've heard so much unrested

468
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: going on inside of companies. It doesn't hit the news

469
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: where people are just mad. And the problem is when

470
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: you have an entire workforce, it's remote and they're just mad.

471
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: They don't really have to pretend to be working right.

472
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: They don't really have to put on their A game.

473
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 2: They just oh, sorry, I missed the email at noon

474
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: on Friday. What are you going to do? You can't

475
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: walk over to their desk. And so I think that

476
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: there is a business imperative, and I think that there

477
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: is a moral imperative, and I think that Silicon Valley

478
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: can't sit this out any longer.

479
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting. I heard from a friend of

480
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: mine who works out one of the big tech companies,

481
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: and I won't say which one, but she is a

482
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: woman and a minority and had to in this reapply

483
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: for her job, you know. And some of the men

484
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: in her unit did not have to, but the women

485
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: of color did.

486
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: She did.

487
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 3: And also this week of all weeks in New York,

488
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 3: you know, and she had to do an interview over

489
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: zoom and and with with people on the other end

490
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: just saying, hey, how are you.

491
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: And it just seems like, you know, and it just

492
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: seems like sometimes there's this this disconnect between Silicon Valley

493
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: and the idea that we can do good and that

494
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: we are changing the world for the best and we

495
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: are going to have the good outcome. And then, you know,

496
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: maybe I sit here passionately talking about it because you

497
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: can hear it outside and you can see it, and

498
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: I have, you know, even the privilege of being inside

499
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,719
Speaker 1: at the current moment talking to you. But you know,

500
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: there's still that that disconnect that I hope that but

501
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: you know that things really that really do change in

502
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 1: some capacity, that this is a sea change for that

503
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of thing.

504
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's the thing, right, it needs to be,

505
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: because I mean, you know, that woman's experience sounds horrific,

506
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 2: but the thing is that people around her are seeing

507
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 2: that as well. A friend works at a company, actually

508
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: a startup in New York, and it's a big startup,

509
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: very well funded. They're doing very well, and they talk

510
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: about you know, the values that they have on their

511
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: posters right on their wall, or you know, about equality

512
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: and freedom and all these things. And they hadn't spoken

513
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: up on this issue and they hadn't done anything about it.

514
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 2: And the founders, you know, are very successful, and so

515
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: you know, one of the engineers, a white man, right,

516
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 2: went to their slack channel and messaged the entire company

517
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: and said, like, are we not going to talk about this?

518
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: Are we going to pretend like this isn't happening, and

519
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: it's spurred action right within a day. Immediately the founder said, hey, actually,

520
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 2: you know we're working out. Of course, we're working on it, right,

521
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: You're just you caught us a couple of minutes beforehand.

522
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: We're working on it. They had to release a statement internally,

523
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: they did their extra statement. They're doing fund matching, they're

524
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: doing donations, they're elevating advices of color. So you know,

525
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: and that's just one one guy writing candidly. The fact

526
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: that it was a white guy who did it is probably,

527
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, one of the more powerful things you can do. Right, So,

528
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: if you're listening to this and you have a ton

529
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 2: of privilege, and you know, you're like, how do I

530
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: spend it? Like yes, donate, Yes, you know, go out

531
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: and protest if that's if that's what works for you.

532
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: You know, talk on social media, be incredibly clear, have

533
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: conversations with your friends, right when somebody makes a joke

534
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: or says a thing like shut them down and make

535
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: it clear that this is not okay, this is not welcome.

536
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: But you can also do that in your workplace, right

537
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: And you mentioned Facebook, and if change comes to Facebook

538
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: from this, it's likely going to be because a bunch

539
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: of very highly paid white guys say, you know what, No,

540
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: this isn't going to work. We are done.

541
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: Well. You know what's really interesting about if you look

542
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: at the petition or some of these employees who are

543
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: talking about whether you agree with whether they're saying or

544
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: not about the company's stance on free speech. But there's

545
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: a lot of unrest at the company right now and

546
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: a lot of that. You know, if you look at

547
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 1: some of the you know, it's like the head designer

548
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: for portal, the white man. Yeah, you know, the guy

549
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: who resigned white man, you know, I mean, and by

550
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: the way, the company. You know, there are diversity issues

551
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: at every major teach company. So it is interesting to

552
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: see that some of the people speaking out around this

553
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: moment in Silicon Valley are exactly kind of how you described.

554
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And that that I think matters because it

555
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: shows you know, that this isn't a siloed thing. One

556
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: if you don't feel like there's enough of an imperative

557
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: to care about people's lives just because it's not you.

558
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: I mean, you as a Jewish woman, understand this, you know,

559
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: very deeply, right, it's not okay to say that group

560
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: of people you know, can be treated this way because

561
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: it's not me. That isn't okay. But even more than

562
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: that is it's not just impacting that group of people.

563
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: We're all under curfews, right. There are people at these

564
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: companies who are speaking out who candidly you know, they

565
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: don't they don't need to for their own survival. But

566
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: that isn't you know where they're coming from. They're coming

567
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: from a place of humanity of isn't okay. And I

568
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: think for these big tech companies, I think for these

569
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: big funds, as that happens, they're going to realize that

570
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: they have to reckon with it, and not even because

571
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do, but because it's very

572
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: hard to run a tech company if all your senior

573
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: and best people are quitting.

574
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I very much hope that like all of

575
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: this comes true. Yeah, you know, I just think it's

576
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: time the world as a whole and then where I

577
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: look at the through the lens like in tech, because

578
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: I think tech products influence the world. Like we're at

579
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: a moment where all of us are having to move

580
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: online in these different ways, there will be even more

581
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: issues with the haves and the have nots and people

582
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: having access to online education. And if we don't have

583
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: a diverse group of perspectives in these tech companies that

584
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: are going to be leading the charge into what a

585
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: post pandemic world looks like, we're going to have even

586
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: more issues that are going to disproportionately impact minorities. And

587
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: I think when I look at that, I think, well,

588
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: that's terrifying, and so we've got to start thinking about

589
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: that kind of thing as well.

590
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is the world doesn't

591
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: work right, Like if you look at COVID, and there

592
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: were a lot of countries where there were crazy outbreaks

593
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: of COVID, and it was traced back to the fact

594
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: that you know, in certain places, and certainly this happens

595
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: in the US as well, right, And this is partially

596
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: why you saw crazy outbreaks of COVID around like ski

597
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: resorts and stuff. Is if you work in an industry,

598
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: a service industry job where you are in very close

599
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: proximity to everybody else in your service industry job. Right.

600
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: So the examples were, you know, places where all of

601
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: the weight staff or all of the service staff you know,

602
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: is maybe bunked together, right in like kind of dorm style. Well, okay,

603
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: so you are you know, probably somebody who doesn't have

604
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: as much money, and you are maybe disproportionally somebody who

605
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: is a person of color. On top of that, guess

606
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: who weight staff serves, right, And so you'd see these

607
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: things where people are coming back from the Swiss Olts

608
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: dying of COVID because they're an incredibly privileged you know,

609
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: once star, I don't have all the details top of mind,

610
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: but like I remember reading one story about a group

611
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: of like three or four guy friends, right white men

612
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: in their fifties, who had gone to like the Alps

613
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: to go skiing and great fun. I love to go, right,

614
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: And then they got back and they all got sick

615
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: and one of them died. So the fact that, you know,

616
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: if you're not taking care of the most vulnerable populations,

617
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: it's not just them, right, and and one it's more

618
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: than enough if it is just them, Like people are

619
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: people and people deserve to live. But it's also going

620
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: to impact you. And so you know that I think

621
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: is a real wake up call for people to realize. Like,

622
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, there's a famous quote that I think is

623
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: an African proverb that like Hillary Clinton of all people

624
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: I think repopularized in the nineties. Right, there's no such

625
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: thing as other people's children, There's no such thing as

626
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: other people's anything. Right. You know, a virus that started

627
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: halfway across the world has killed over one hundred thousand Americans, right,

628
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: And everything is global. And until you understand that, like

629
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: what's hurts somebody somewhere hurts everybody everywhere. You know, we're

630
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: going to keep having these these deeply equal outcomes, but

631
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: they're going to hurt you too. And so that I

632
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: think is hopefully something that you know, people are seeing

633
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: with COVID, that people are seeing with these protests, that

634
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: that people remember and don't forget. Right, if you don't

635
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: care about black lives, like, that's on you. But if

636
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: you care about your own life and you you want

637
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: to be able to leave your house at nine pm

638
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: at night in the next few months, then like you

639
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: might want to get on board.

640
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: That's such a powerful statement. And I do think like, man,

641
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: if this doesn't make you care about all of this,

642
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: I don't know what well, you know.

643
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, Yes, I don't know.

644
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: I really like this is boss level, Like I just

645
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: don't know what well at the pdpoint, Okay, we've got

646
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors

647
00:31:45,360 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: more with my guests. After the break, you created Cleo Capital,

648
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: Like at the time, it's been so cool to watch

649
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: you throughout the years be very vocal about women, minorities

650
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: and kind of breaking into the boys club in Silicon

651
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: Valley and fighting for certain causes and saying, hey, we've

652
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: got a problem, and even by the way, in your

653
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 1: own personal life, having at one point an investor doing

654
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 1: something inappropriate to you and you saying, you know what,

655
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: like I'm just not gonna sit her and take this,

656
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: and you spoke out publicly, and so you know, it's

657
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: been interesting to watch throughout the years and you really

658
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: not develop You've always had that voice. Yeah, when was

659
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: it that you launched Cleo It was twenty eighteen or

660
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen.

661
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: Yep, so twenty eighteen and we've been going strong for

662
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: about a year and a half now.

663
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: So take me to the idea behind CLEO, because I

664
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: remember when you I feel like I gave you that

665
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: whole backstory to kind of give little pieces about like

666
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: this didn't just come out of like, oh, I think

667
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: I want to help women or you know, I just

668
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: feel like it was always in your DNA that you

669
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: were going to do something like launch an investment fund

670
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to help different types of people, you know, not the

671
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: typical Silicon Valley dynamic get funding. So so take me

672
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: to the thought process behind it and why you launched

673
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: and what it is. Yeah.

674
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: So you know, Cleo Capital is a precede venture fund

675
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: and we don't have a mandate around race or gender

676
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: in terms of diversity investing. We just invested incredibly smart people.

677
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: And turns out that the women and minorities and members

678
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: of the LGBTQ community and people from all over the

679
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: country right not just Silicon Valley or New York, are

680
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: incredibly smart and they're building incredible companies. And so you know,

681
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: for us, that is easy because to your point, that's

682
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: in our DNA, that's what we believe, and that's in

683
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: those people flock to us, and that's what we do.

684
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: In terms of the fund. You know, I had been

685
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: at a large venture capital fund years ago and then

686
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: left and went and started a company and raised venture

687
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: capital for that and saw all the challenges that there

688
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: is in doing that period much less you know, as

689
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: a woman, as a black woman and it was really interesting,

690
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: eye opening experience. And you know, I then was tapped

691
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: by two sort of very different but very interesting opportunities.

692
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 2: One was I was on a board at Michigan State

693
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: University where I went to college, and I was on

694
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: a board to help them do their LP investing, so

695
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: to help them allocate into you know, venture funch, hedge funds,

696
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: all of that, and so I learned a lot about

697
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: that side of the equation, which is often kind of

698
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: a mystery even to very experienced fund managers. So I

699
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: got to sit in that seat. And then I also

700
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: on the other side, you know, as a scout for Sequoia,

701
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 2: and was seeing you know, how scouting works, which scout

702
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: investing basically is when a bigger fund says, hey, you know,

703
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 2: we know all these smart, brilliant people on our networks

704
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: who aren't personally liquid yet they can't actually angel invest

705
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: or they can't angel invest why don't we fund their

706
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: angel investing. You know, they'll find us amazing deals and

707
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: that we might end up wanting to put money into

708
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: as well, and then we'll split the proceeds. And so

709
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: that's scout investing. I was a scout at Sequoia. You know,

710
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: my company had run out of money. I was winding

711
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: it down, kind of thinking about what I wanted to

712
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: do next, and I was really bothered that, you know,

713
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: I was scout investing. So I'd call my female founder

714
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: friends and because they're you know, my closest friends, and

715
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: I would say, hey, you know, I'm angel investing. Now,

716
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: I'm scout investing. You know, can you send me deal flow?

717
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: Right?

718
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: What are you investing? And these are brilliant women, many

719
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: of whom you're friends with as well, who've been in

720
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 2: this industry for a long time. They're you know, super smart,

721
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: they've had success, some success, but they all said, oh,

722
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: we don't angel invest I'm like why, Like, they're not

723
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: personally liquid, right, because they're raising so much less money

724
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 2: at lower valuations, it's harder to take money off the table.

725
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: They're less likely, you know, to be getting hired into

726
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: these big tech companies to begin with and getting those

727
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: big paydays. They're less likely to be made advisors at companies,

728
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: so that then when they are excess that they're getting

729
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: some of that free cash flow that funds most of

730
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: the angel investing in Silicon Valley. So they weren't really

731
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: angel investing. I was like, okay, that makes sense, but

732
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 2: then why aren't you scout investing? And all of them

733
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: looked at me and said, what's a scout? And so

734
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: I started doing some digging, and I found out that

735
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: you know that there are about five ish firms at

736
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: any given time that have Scout programs in Silicon Valley,

737
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: and all of them have by far predominantly men, and

738
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 2: they're also relatively you know, pretty and diverse. Right, so

739
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: I was shocked to hear this. I shouldn't be shocked

740
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: that sometimes, you know, we still get shocked by the

741
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: things that are probably obvious at this point. And so

742
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: I was really bothered that I knew all these amazing,

743
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: brilliant women who are insanely well connected, and you know,

744
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: they weren't able to angel invest. And so my thought,

745
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: what I said, was, you know, why not give them

746
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: the opportunity to angel invest? Why not give them money?

747
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: And I was thinking about joining larger funds, and even

748
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: post me too, I wasn't wildly impressed by what I

749
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: was seeing at the bigger funds in terms of their

750
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: their commitments to diversity, how they were treating diverse audiences.

751
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: All of that, so you know, I decided to launch

752
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: my own fund, and you know, we invest in anyone.

753
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: I invest in anyone. My Scout's invest in anyone. But

754
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: my Scouts are an amazing group of women who are

755
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: female founders. They've raised between five and fifty million themselves.

756
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: They're backed by top funds, they co invest with top funds,

757
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: and it's working. The two best performing investments in our

758
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: fund right now, one is two female founders, one of

759
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: whom is a woman of color, and the other is

760
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, two male founders, but they are you know,

761
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: they're both immigrants and one is a man of color,

762
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: and so it works, right. And we didn't do those

763
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: deals because of that. We did those deals because they're

764
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: great deals. And we have top tier investors who followed

765
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: us into both of those deals and they're you know,

766
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: they're doing incredibly well because these people, like, the talent

767
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: is out there and it doesn't need training, It is ready.

768
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: It just needs capital, and it's awesome to be a

769
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: part of doing that.

770
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you I think, as when all of this

771
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: happened with coronavirus, you put out a program for folks

772
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: who were laid off. You know, can you tell us

773
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about that. I feel like that could

774
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: be a good resource for folks.

775
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was something that we put together very quickly.

776
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: And you know, investors generally say, actually, the last business

777
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: trip I took before COVID really shut things down was

778
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: to New York. So I was in New York in

779
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 2: early March, the first week of March, and I was

780
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: on a panel and investor panel talking about how you know,

781
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: someone said, you know what about downturns, and I said,

782
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: I'm a preseed investor. Right, Historically, downturns are a great

783
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: time to start a company because talent is cheaper, the

784
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: opportunity cost of starting a company is cheaper. Even AD

785
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 2: rates right on Facebook and Instagram, as we've seen during coronavirus,

786
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: are cheaper because there's less capital, there's less competition. And

787
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: so you know, Uber, Airbnb, all of these companies. Right

788
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: if Airbnb, if those guys had had well paid jobs

789
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: in that moment, Airbnb would never exist because it never

790
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: would have occurred to them to run out their beds. Right,

791
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: So we know this to be true. But now this

792
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: downturn hit, and it hit incredibly suddenly and incredibly hard,

793
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: and within two weeks, thirty thousand plus tech workers had

794
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: been laid off, proportionally female, disproportionately people of color. And

795
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: what we were seeing is that all these investors were saying,

796
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 2: you know, time to build, go build stuff, This is

797
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: a great time to start a company, but they weren't

798
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: giving them any instruction on how to do it, or

799
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: any resources or any help. And so my thought was,

800
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: you know, I know I've started companies. I know how

801
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: to do that. I'm a preseed investor. I work with

802
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: founders at the earliest stages. I write checks before there's

803
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: anything beyond a person I believe in who has an idea.

804
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: So I said, well, why not just do that? And

805
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: so we launched a program called Chrysalis, because you know,

806
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: it's when when the caterpillar thinks it's life is over,

807
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: it turns into a butterfly. And so we launched this

808
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: program with a really simple mandate, which was, you know,

809
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: we put up an application page, and tech Crunch, you know,

810
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: wrote about it, and we reached out to some people,

811
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: amazing people we knew had been laid off, and we

812
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: started to get hundreds and hundreds of applications, right, and

813
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: so we launched the program it's a six week program,

814
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: and there are people who've been laid off, and they

815
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: are people who are brilliant. They come out of top

816
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: tech companies. You know, we have ex PhDs, we have

817
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 2: cxos of publicly traded companies and everything in between. An

818
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: incredibly diverse group of people and they're building, right. They

819
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: all came together and they started getting to know each other,

820
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 2: trading company ideas, and you know, from there they were

821
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: able to say, okay, great, you know, let's go out

822
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 2: and start working on stuff. And so we're in week

823
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: four and we have about fifteen companies that people are

824
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: working on now. And they're pretty viable, right, they're good ideas,

825
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: they're incredibly talented founders with great experience, and they're building

826
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: and they're working, and you know, we're really bullish that

827
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: that this is going to result in some real companies

828
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: from people who two months ago, if you told them, hey,

829
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: you're going to be launching a company before fourth of July,

830
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: they would have said, what are you talking about?

831
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: Wow? And also so appropriate that it's like seven o'clock

832
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: here in New York and that like people are cheering

833
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: outside for the healthcare workers, so like as you're talking

834
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: about that, like people are cheering.

835
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: Good.

836
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: I feel I've had it's been a range of we've

837
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: had this, sirens, We've had people cheering, well, you know,

838
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: to rap, I would love What about this is personal

839
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: to you? I mean all of it is personal.

840
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I'd rather not die because people are racist, So

841
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: it's very personal, yes, and and like I laugh, but

842
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: it's also true and it's insane that that you have

843
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: to say that, right, So, so of course it's personal.

844
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: But to me, you know, the thing that I think

845
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: about all the time is like, you know, I'm in

846
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: my thirties, Like I want to have kids someday, and

847
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: like I can't, Like I hope that the world has

848
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 2: changed by the time my kids are old enough to

849
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 2: have questions about this, But I certainly can't, you know,

850
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: with any moral authority, right bring kids into the world

851
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: and then have to tell them when they ask why

852
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: is the world like this? I can't say I don't know,

853
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: and I didn't do anything to change it, right, And

854
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: I see, you know, so many of my friends, because

855
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 2: of my age, right, are are having babies and they're

856
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: they're really thinking about that. They're saying, like I'm going

857
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: to raise this human in this world, and it can't

858
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: keep looking like this, right, It can't keep looking like

859
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: this for women, for people of color, for LGBTQ people

860
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: like we can't you know, for immigrants, it can't keep

861
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: looking like this. And I think that's really an amazing

862
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: kind of north star that if we focus on that,

863
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: and if we say, am I comfortable right with the

864
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: fact that in twenty five thirty years I might be

865
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: having a daughter, right who's a black woman who's graduated

866
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: college and has headed off to work in Silicon Valley?

867
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: And if she calls me and says, hey, Mom, you

868
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: know I'm getting sexually harassed. Hey, people are being you know, racist,

869
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: I can't say, oh, yeah, sorry, that's just how it is,

870
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: because it doesn't need to be how it is.

871
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: First Contact is a production of Dot Dot Dot Media,

872
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: executive produced by Laurie Siegel and Derek Dodge. This episode

873
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: was produced and edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Reagan.

874
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: The original theme music is by Xander Singh. First Contact

875
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot Dot Dot

876
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: Media and iHeartRadio.