Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, buddy. How are you. I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 1: How are you guys? Very well, very very well. I'm good.
Speaker 1: We're all around the world, aren't we. We are indeed,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure,
Speaker 1: my pleasure. Where are you guys right now? Or are
Speaker 1: you allowed to tell me secret locations? I'm not in
Speaker 1: a secret location. I'm back in England. It's been in
Speaker 1: England for um a couple of months. I just finished
Speaker 1: a show in New York and hadn't been able to
Speaker 1: get back almost throughout the entire pandemic. So I got
Speaker 1: back for the first time, like late February. Oh, brilliant,
Speaker 1: that's great. What you cat. I'm currently in London, but
Speaker 1: just because i'm here, I just finished up a comic
Speaker 1: con and I'm here visiting and fantastic. Yeah, hanging out
Speaker 1: for a bit. Well, if you're there for another week,
Speaker 1: my fiance will be there at the end of the
Speaker 1: week for a job. He's doing so well, Michael, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, and returned to
Speaker 1: the Shadows. We've been interviewing some really interesting creatives back
Speaker 1: and forth, and obviously we couldn't complete our season one
Speaker 1: section of the show without bringing on the one and
Speaker 1: only writer of the Malik episode and one of the
Speaker 1: most influential writers in season one. So thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: and so nice to see you guys again. It's really great. Michael,
Speaker 1: tell us a little about who you are, how you
Speaker 1: been involved in shadow Hunters, just for the clamoring fans
Speaker 1: out there. Sure, sure, sure, So I'm I was one
Speaker 1: of the executive producer's shadow Hunters and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been writing for about twenty years now. But I
Speaker 1: started off as a lawyer here in Los Angeles, and
Speaker 1: then one thing led yeah, yeah that was raised to
Speaker 1: be a lawyer, and I love law schools fantastic. Uh.
Speaker 1: One thing led to another uh, and through a longer
Speaker 1: story for another time or later in the podcast whatever,
Speaker 1: I ended up quitting law after a few years to
Speaker 1: do some recurring parts on Days of Our Lives when
Speaker 1: Marlina was possessed by the Devil, and so then after
Speaker 1: that it led to an I quit to be an actor.
Speaker 1: So I was an actor for about ten years. It
Speaker 1: did a lot of theater, uh, and a couple of shows.
Speaker 1: I was going to start trek Voyage or stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Segued over to a big career in voiceover, which I
Speaker 1: was really grateful for. So I still like on some
Speaker 1: animated things that there's some characters that I did that
Speaker 1: I still get requested. So if my production schedule fits it,
Speaker 1: I do it. Yeah to that, and three started writing
Speaker 1: long story short, my friend ed Dector, who you guys know,
Speaker 1: wrote the pilot and then asked me to come on
Speaker 1: while he was doing the pilot. Uh, and I was
Speaker 1: on it from the inception and in fact I cast
Speaker 1: you both. So there you go looking, there we go.
Speaker 1: We will talk about it later. So I am doing
Speaker 1: a little digging now. It's so funny when we do
Speaker 1: these things. The producers give us these amazing briefs from
Speaker 1: people that I've worked with for four years, and there
Speaker 1: are things on it that I'm like, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. That's the real thing. And speaking of so
Speaker 1: you were in you were one of the voice actors
Speaker 1: in the Lord of the Rings the Fellowship of the
Speaker 1: Ring game. I was, yeah, I'm legoless. I didn't tell
Speaker 1: you that a series of games was like me and
Speaker 1: my brother's all time favorite. We played it hours, hours
Speaker 1: and hours and hours and hours. Yeah, that's crazy. So
Speaker 1: that's my like and Soul Caliber as well was my
Speaker 1: stepfather's favorite game, so we used to play that together
Speaker 1: all the time too. So this is just like a
Speaker 1: crazy I'm like fully starstruck and like anything, the voice
Speaker 1: of one of my favorite games. Why, well, thank you
Speaker 1: Now animation still is I mean, I absolutely adore it. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys know anime a lot.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of anime stuff and so Digimon
Speaker 1: and uh, Naruto, stuff like that, Metropolis things like that.
Speaker 1: So it's been great, really really great group of people.
Speaker 1: So thanks talented individually. Because if I needed another reason
Speaker 1: to think you're the coolest personal lives, you were. Also
Speaker 1: this is like crazy, You're very kind. It was a
Speaker 1: while ago, but thank you. That's very nice to you
Speaker 1: to say. Yeah. So then coming back to your journey
Speaker 1: as a writer, Um, what what sort of what was
Speaker 1: it like transitioning into becoming an actor and then a
Speaker 1: writer that You've had so many transitions in your life,
Speaker 1: so a lawyer to actor to writer, what how was
Speaker 1: that process for you? What you know, reinventing yourself so
Speaker 1: many times. It's interesting because as I look back on
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what was I thinking, But in the moment,
Speaker 1: doors just kind of I mean, you make doors open
Speaker 1: for yourself. So I was. You know, it was hard work,
Speaker 1: but doors opened up for me at certain points and
Speaker 1: you just have to I had to trust that it
Speaker 1: would work out, and I jumped through it. I jumped
Speaker 1: through the door. So when I quit law, I was
Speaker 1: offered this recurring thing on Days of Our Lives where
Speaker 1: I couldn't reconcile the two anymore. And I remember going
Speaker 1: into my boss's office, my partner's office is saying I'm
Speaker 1: giving my notice and he said what law firm are
Speaker 1: you going to? And I said Days of our Lives
Speaker 1: and he was like what. Um. So there there was
Speaker 1: that love acting love actors. Obviously, I love you guys
Speaker 1: seeing it from my end now knowing how hard it
Speaker 1: is and how vulnerable you guys have to make yourselves,
Speaker 1: and how open you always have to be, and how
Speaker 1: you're always putting yourself on the line through every audition.
Speaker 1: It takes a certain amount of strength. Uh. And that
Speaker 1: was great for me for a while. UH. And but
Speaker 1: an opportunity through Warner Brothers opened up where I got
Speaker 1: into the Warner Brothers Drama Writers Workshop because I decided
Speaker 1: from my perspective when I was entering a set acting,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be involved in the entire creation of
Speaker 1: the world as opposed to, you know, creating my character
Speaker 1: and doing that which you guys do so beautifully. And
Speaker 1: so as I was looking around watching every body doing
Speaker 1: all their stuff, I was like, I want to do that.
Speaker 1: And so I applied to the Warner Brothers Drama Writers
Speaker 1: Workshop and I wrote a couple of back then you
Speaker 1: what they wanted spec scripts. I wrote a couple of them,
Speaker 1: and I got in and then they ended up placing
Speaker 1: me on a few shows. So my first show was
Speaker 1: way back when. Remember seven episodes at last at Tarzan
Speaker 1: on the c W. I don't know if you guys, Yeah,
Speaker 1: One Tree Hill and Tarzan premiered at the same time,
Speaker 1: and One Tree Hill lasted a lot longer. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: Eric Krikey was a fantastic boss and he went on
Speaker 1: to do amazing things obviously, so you know that was
Speaker 1: that was my first job, my first writing job. Then
Speaker 1: you just keep doing more jobs, and then I was
Speaker 1: on Boston Legal for a number of years, which was fantastic,
Speaker 1: and then I wrote some pilots fast forwarding a long
Speaker 1: way away. I now jumped back and forth between running
Speaker 1: TV shows and and and features. So um the Truth
Speaker 1: or Dare I think they're doing it sequel to it.
Speaker 1: But I wrote Truth or Dare for Blumhouse and Universal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that did pretty well. I just turned in a
Speaker 1: new horror movie and I've gone doing two pilots now
Speaker 1: and two other little movies. So it's just just just
Speaker 1: a nice, easy, little world boat. I'm just working on
Speaker 1: eighteen scripts or at the same time, it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to it's I mean, the overall answer to your question
Speaker 1: is what what I've discovered is like everybody has a
Speaker 1: unique voice offer no matter what they're doing, no matter
Speaker 1: what they're saying. Actors bring a unique perspective to the room.
Speaker 1: Writer's bring a unique perspective as they and to a
Speaker 1: writer's room. Every element of my life from law when
Speaker 1: I was a banking and finance attorney so I know
Speaker 1: how to budget the shows, to acting so I hopefully
Speaker 1: could communicate well with you guys when you guys needed stuff,
Speaker 1: to writing. It all lends itself to running shows and
Speaker 1: so I kind of found my path and I'm really grateful, amazing.
Speaker 1: So what is there is there as far as writing goes,
Speaker 1: Is there a world in which you feel most comfortable?
Speaker 1: Is there is there an element that you feel that
Speaker 1: you just mentioned that you're doing a few. You just
Speaker 1: you just turned in a horror and you're writing a horror.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious if that's where you feel most at
Speaker 1: home or if you would span out and do you
Speaker 1: know a rom com at some point like what is
Speaker 1: where's your heart at? Well? It's it's funny. Um, it
Speaker 1: depends on my mood. So writing horror. Writing horror is
Speaker 1: very cathartic. But what I have found is that I
Speaker 1: like doing a lot of different things, and it really
Speaker 1: is based ultimately on the character and everything I do,
Speaker 1: I like to add a little Yeah, everything I do,
Speaker 1: I like to add a little humor to it. So
Speaker 1: even in the scariest things, you need to laugh to
Speaker 1: let that release. I like writing really hopefully strong female characters.
Speaker 1: Um is one of the things I really love writing.
Speaker 1: So if if ever like my dream show would have
Speaker 1: been to right on the west wing, you know, and
Speaker 1: to right that would have been brilliant. You know that
Speaker 1: that's like my pinnacle of what I like, you know,
Speaker 1: of what I strive for. But you know, I'm writing, um,
Speaker 1: a rom com now TV movie. Uh, and so it's
Speaker 1: just it's really based on the characters and then who
Speaker 1: what world I want to live in for a while.
Speaker 1: But I also really love scaring people, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that it's arguably one of the hardest things to
Speaker 1: to write, I think is horror, as I mean, most
Speaker 1: of these genres are fairly saturated, but I think with horror,
Speaker 1: the whole the whole thing is like shock and if
Speaker 1: you know those shocks are coming, then it's not scared.
Speaker 1: It's not or not as scary. It's always scary for me.
Speaker 1: If I know me, it's always scary. Like it doesn't
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what it is. I can barely watch
Speaker 1: Scooby Doo. But it's it's not even a joke. It's
Speaker 1: like embarrassing. It's true. We've watched horror movies together. I'm
Speaker 1: just as bad. But that I'm excited to see what
Speaker 1: you come up with, because yeah, horrors. Horror is tricky,
Speaker 1: and especially for horror fans, they know what's coming for
Speaker 1: the most part because they've seen it all. So it's
Speaker 1: it takes a really ingenious writer to to overcome that.
Speaker 1: Well the well, thank you for the interesting thing. Um,
Speaker 1: you have to care about the characters, like you have
Speaker 1: to care if someone's in danger. If I don't care
Speaker 1: about them, then I'm like, all right, so they die. Um,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. It's like, but you automatically,
Speaker 1: like I don't know if you guys ever worked with
Speaker 1: Lucy Hale or not. She was on a show I
Speaker 1: did years ago called Privileged, one of her first I
Speaker 1: was a mid level producer and she was brilliant on that,
Speaker 1: and then life kind of took us in the same
Speaker 1: direction and she ended up starring in Truth or Dare.
Speaker 1: But you automatically love Lucy and what she brings to it,
Speaker 1: and so if something happens to her and the character
Speaker 1: she's building, then you care. The types of horror that
Speaker 1: I find really amazing right now, and I'm gonna Aaron Aaron,
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. He did the Tony Collet horror movie.
Speaker 1: Why am I blanking right now? Oh? You know I'm
Speaker 1: talking abo, Yes, yeah, yeah, those types of those really
Speaker 1: excite me. That's what really scares me. Now, those are
Speaker 1: just genius, like and summer, why is my brain not working?
Speaker 1: He did the follow Midsummer with that's it all. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I try and study all of his things just to
Speaker 1: see if I can keep learning. So yeah, that that
Speaker 1: that's kind of the horror journey. I suppose it's fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so too. And you know, with circling back
Speaker 1: to shadow Hunter as you were obviously so pivotal in
Speaker 1: that and and responsible for some of the most iconic
Speaker 1: moments in the show. So when you first heard about
Speaker 1: this story and this process these characters, did you do
Speaker 1: any kind of research in particular or or what? What?
Speaker 1: What were you first taken with in this world? It's
Speaker 1: interesting I had seen the feature years or I had
Speaker 1: not read the books at that point. When Ed asked
Speaker 1: me to join, I read all the books and I
Speaker 1: just fell in love with the world. Um, and so
Speaker 1: what I ended up. When you adapt books into a
Speaker 1: TV series, it gives you so many opportunities to expand
Speaker 1: on characters that had a narrow lane in the book
Speaker 1: just for space, but wonderful moments were teed off that
Speaker 1: you can say, oh, I can follow that, and uh,
Speaker 1: for for me, the Malick romance, I learned all about
Speaker 1: shipping through Shadow Hunters, the Malick romance. UM. Obviously spoke
Speaker 1: to me deeply. Then. I think even today, I still
Speaker 1: get emails from like, the fans are so amazing, and
Speaker 1: I still get emails from some fans who help them
Speaker 1: come out to their parents. I get emails from some
Speaker 1: parents who watched the show with their kids and said,
Speaker 1: you help me understand my child more. And that's the
Speaker 1: power of what shadow Hunters did and what TV can do.
Speaker 1: And so I took it very very seriously. It was
Speaker 1: really important, and I think it came off pretty well. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think a few people liked it, you know, semi popular.
Speaker 1: So that's this is an interesting thing I think to
Speaker 1: touch on. And again, if any of it's you know
Speaker 1: too personally, you don't answer and just say about how
Speaker 1: much of your of like the elements of like yourself
Speaker 1: and your discovery, like how much of that plays into
Speaker 1: what you're writing, the characters you develop, where you take them, this,
Speaker 1: that and the other. It plays, It plays a huge thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of when it comes to that stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm an open book. I mean, I did a whole
Speaker 1: it gets better video for free form through shadowing yourself.
Speaker 1: I'm out there. So yeah, those stories, I mean, the
Speaker 1: best experiences I have in writing is when I can
Speaker 1: take the material and also infuse personal experiences that a
Speaker 1: hope universal, you know, for for the scripts and just that.
Speaker 1: There's moments in the Malik journey um with Visa VI,
Speaker 1: the family relationships, the I came out later in life,
Speaker 1: I was engaged to a wonderful woman and then later
Speaker 1: now I'm engaged to an amazing guy. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: learning about yourself and living authentically and like all those
Speaker 1: moments I think really grounded in a personal residence that
Speaker 1: then extends to the audience. If if you believe in
Speaker 1: you're moved by it, then you hopefully will move other people,
Speaker 1: uh and speak to them. Yeah, that's lovely man. I.
Speaker 1: We we've spoken about that episode in particular. It's tricky
Speaker 1: because we're doing the rewatch somewhat chronologically, so we get
Speaker 1: too elements and we're like, oh, we want to talk
Speaker 1: about this. We're like, funk, we can't, yeah, because we've
Speaker 1: got we haven't reached the episodes. But we did. We
Speaker 1: did just speak about the Malik episode. We record at
Speaker 1: that episode, which is amazing, and what what we talked
Speaker 1: about was there are so many elements in it that
Speaker 1: had to come together to make this this like really
Speaker 1: beautifully profound peace, from Matt and Harry's acting to the directing,
Speaker 1: to like putting together the set design, to the writing,
Speaker 1: and I think because each of those people had a
Speaker 1: fairly substantial chunk of their heart in it. Really, it
Speaker 1: really was this like amazing, amazing thing to be a
Speaker 1: part of. So, you know, thank you for a little
Speaker 1: chunk of your heart and that thank you. I remember
Speaker 1: you guys did a beautiful job in the episode as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just the looks everybody shot each other.
Speaker 1: I remember a particular moment where where YouTube connected with
Speaker 1: a look as the vows were about to be expressed,
Speaker 1: and I think, uh, there was an incredibly powerful moment.
Speaker 1: But I mean even down to like every department did
Speaker 1: really beautiful work and we were all, you know, scrambling
Speaker 1: that week to make sure we could get everything in there.
Speaker 1: I remember running. I was personally running down a road
Speaker 1: in the rain, trying to grab it like somebody who
Speaker 1: thought they were like let go for the day, and
Speaker 1: then they had to come back and I was just like, no,
Speaker 1: we need to shoot you again, you know, And it's
Speaker 1: like raining and I'm soaking, and then there's a I
Speaker 1: believe cat you were a beautiful green dress and we
Speaker 1: had to figure out like what jewels were there, and
Speaker 1: you know, where it was cut and what we like
Speaker 1: even the wardrobe department microphone on oh good lord. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Dom, you're suiting the whole thing everything hair Dom,
Speaker 1: the hair, Don's hair. Let's don't even talk about it.
Speaker 1: We literally just spoke to Ran Reid, who is the designer.
Speaker 1: We like just finished talking to yeah today and like
Speaker 1: that was the whole thing. Because then I think the
Speaker 1: note season one was like we don't want to do
Speaker 1: we did the fight scene in the in the pandemonium
Speaker 1: and they like the guys on top one, we don't
Speaker 1: Dom's hair in his face ever, Like what the fund
Speaker 1: do you mean we're doing like the martial arts based show. Like,
Speaker 1: so yeah, that was There's a lot of navigating even
Speaker 1: behind the scenes that you guys don't even see, so right,
Speaker 1: lots of lots of meetings before we even start shooting exactly.
Speaker 1: So I will let me ask you if we're going
Speaker 1: back to like you know, meetings pre pre the fact um.
Speaker 1: What was casting like, like can I tell us and
Speaker 1: then both Now you're an e P so you're looking
Speaker 1: at like potentially the cellibility of people, you know, some
Speaker 1: of the people who are going to be able to
Speaker 1: hold these characters for a very long period of time.
Speaker 1: And then also as a writer, you've already put your
Speaker 1: heart and soul into these characters, you know, developing them
Speaker 1: as they are, so you have sort of you almost
Speaker 1: have two voices in that room, right, Yeah, Well, it's certain.
Speaker 1: Dominant've spoken a great deal about our perspective on the
Speaker 1: casting process, and we've heard from some of the other actors,
Speaker 1: but we haven't had a chance yet to hear from
Speaker 1: someone on your side of the table. I want to
Speaker 1: hear your perspective. Well, I just remember looking to a wall.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's casting a pilot is
Speaker 1: a marathon, you know. I actually remember seeing both of
Speaker 1: your auditions and it was very nice and he he
Speaker 1: sort of put me kind of in charge of casting.
Speaker 1: I mean in charge of the wrong word, but because
Speaker 1: it wasn't because I was an actor and then uh
Speaker 1: the other executive producer of it. I was in the
Speaker 1: process from the whole time. So Cat, I remember you
Speaker 1: read our first week I think, and you were on
Speaker 1: another show where your hair was super blonde as in
Speaker 1: the Fosters. That's right, you're on You're on Peter Show.
Speaker 1: And I remember saying to Peter, can we can we
Speaker 1: get her out? You know, like we were chatting even
Speaker 1: and Peter's an old little friend of mine. But here's
Speaker 1: the here's a small little thing, one of the things
Speaker 1: that we like. You have to keep looking and keep looking,
Speaker 1: and dumb, I gotta start about you too. Keep looking
Speaker 1: and keep looking, keep looking. And it was does she
Speaker 1: have red hair? And like or would she mind dying
Speaker 1: her hair red? And that was the stumbling block for
Speaker 1: a moment, and I'm like, of course she will, let's
Speaker 1: ask her, let's you know what I mean, And then
Speaker 1: the question and then ultimately it came back at the
Speaker 1: very end. We went through like hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 1: people and you were always in there, and then hundreds
Speaker 1: and hundreds of people and then no one compared, and
Speaker 1: then it was sort of like, wait a minute, why
Speaker 1: don't we just ask her? And I think your hair
Speaker 1: is naturally red, isn't it like you have your auburn
Speaker 1: the red hair and was actually strawberry blonde? Yeah, We're like,
Speaker 1: oh so, and I'm color blind, so I can't see red,
Speaker 1: but you know what, so so even those little things
Speaker 1: like you spoke to us of that and then dumb.
Speaker 1: I remember you came in. I remember sitting in the
Speaker 1: room and I'm next to d and when I was
Speaker 1: an act of the worst thing you could hear, I
Speaker 1: thought was you walk in, you do one read and
Speaker 1: you go, hey, thanks for coming in, and then you
Speaker 1: leave and your your soul just spills out of you
Speaker 1: and you're like what just happened? And I remember you
Speaker 1: walked in and I was like, oh, that's him. I
Speaker 1: just remember seeing it. And then you read and I
Speaker 1: look at Allison and oh, yeah, that's him, and then
Speaker 1: ed ed who liked you? He wasn't not sure. It
Speaker 1: was just there's he had to do so many different things,
Speaker 1: you know that he was just going to make the
Speaker 1: decision later. But you got the hey, thanks for coming
Speaker 1: in after one without any adjustments. And I was like,
Speaker 1: he's gonna call Rob Marsala and then Rob the new
Speaker 1: one and and I'm friends with Rob, and what am
Speaker 1: I gonna doo? And I was like, given, like, and
Speaker 1: so you left and I saw your face and I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say, don't worry, don't worry and then
Speaker 1: at the end we all had a conversation. I think
Speaker 1: we played your Taylor Swift video and it's like that's
Speaker 1: the guy and so then it kind of it went
Speaker 1: from there. But it's like the soul crushing like thanks
Speaker 1: for coming in things. It's so what you guys have
Speaker 1: to go because that man, that's the conversation you have
Speaker 1: off to its like you know, as you say, Rob
Speaker 1: Masala is my yeah, my very talented manager, um, And
Speaker 1: that's the conversation you call them afterwards and you know,
Speaker 1: you decompress and you go, yeah, this is how how
Speaker 1: it went whatever. And if you say those words, you know,
Speaker 1: to your manager, you go, oh, I got the thanks
Speaker 1: for coming in. Both of you collectively go well, we're
Speaker 1: not getting this one. Like that's just you know, you
Speaker 1: know that that's the response. So that is yeah, you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. You walk out of those rooms like damn it.
Speaker 1: But the thing is the I guess the fact toy
Speaker 1: to take away is, um, that's not always a bad thing.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll come into a room and they'll just be
Speaker 1: this vibe. You go, oh, yeah, that's the person, and
Speaker 1: then they read and they read really well and you're
Speaker 1: like yeah, I don't need to see anymore, and then
Speaker 1: like if I need to see more or for the
Speaker 1: teams that's in the callback, and then the next callback,
Speaker 1: and then the studio test, and then I remember walking
Speaker 1: into free Form where all you guys are nervously sitting
Speaker 1: in the lobby, you know, and we're all having you
Speaker 1: sign your contract, and I'm like, love, yeah, I only
Speaker 1: tested for one thing in my entire life when I
Speaker 1: was an actor, and you guys go through this all
Speaker 1: the time. So I'm like, they're old hats. But it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, interestingly, it's not really a thing anymore. Like
Speaker 1: it's I've done probably in the last like four years,
Speaker 1: I've done like two face to face tests because it's
Speaker 1: now all digital. They just send you tapes over. It's
Speaker 1: all done. That whole stress of like sitting in a
Speaker 1: essentially like a theater with the stands full of like
Speaker 1: the execut Disney, then the execuit Constantine and the show
Speaker 1: executs and the writers and g and all of you guys,
Speaker 1: and you just sat there like shipping yourself, hoping you
Speaker 1: don't like mess something up. That's kind of gone now
Speaker 1: that stresses it alleviated with you. I will say, it's
Speaker 1: really grateful for for Walker. I had the new Walker
Speaker 1: independent pilot, I just did. I had to test on
Speaker 1: Zoom and do chemistry reads on Zoom, so it was
Speaker 1: that same and I I actually would rather be in
Speaker 1: person because doing that on Zoom, you're in You're in
Speaker 1: your house, and so it's already kind of this weird
Speaker 1: thing and it's it's yeah, it just pulls you out
Speaker 1: entire and you don't have the same kind of the
Speaker 1: same environmental and having trying to have chemistry with your
Speaker 1: love interest, and it's just it's so hard even just
Speaker 1: auditioning from your home, when you're trying to be a character,
Speaker 1: separating yourself from where you are in real life. I
Speaker 1: imagine that's crazy. Heart. So that's tricky. Once you sort
Speaker 1: of start developing relationships in this, you see it more
Speaker 1: and more, we're like, oh, I know someone in this
Speaker 1: room like this, so this feels a lot safer, just
Speaker 1: even if it doesn't go my way, Like at least
Speaker 1: I know this person is kind of in my corner
Speaker 1: um and and sort of it seems like we had
Speaker 1: that person in you. We just didn't know right away,
Speaker 1: but we did have that person, and you sort of
Speaker 1: behind the behind the scenes fighting our corner, which is
Speaker 1: it's such a lovely thing. And we've told I think
Speaker 1: both Cat and I have told those stories that you
Speaker 1: just told on the podcast talking about you. Excited to
Speaker 1: have you on because they're like, yeah, Michael really was
Speaker 1: in our our corner sort of throughout and we used you.
Speaker 1: I remember a bunch of times using you in season
Speaker 1: one is like the guy I could really come and
Speaker 1: talk to as the as the confident of like I
Speaker 1: don't get this, Like can you please talk me through this?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, and you did, like
Speaker 1: you understood like talking to us, which was which was
Speaker 1: really special. It's always nice to have a sounding board.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, you guys are putting your faces. Your
Speaker 1: likeness is your whole being out there. You know. I
Speaker 1: get to be behind the computer or video village sort
Speaker 1: of telling people what to do, but you guys are
Speaker 1: out there. So the more comfortable and the more the
Speaker 1: saferest space that you can provide an actor, I think,
Speaker 1: the better performance you're going to get ultimately, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think what you write me rose in everything
Speaker 1: you're writing from here east in number seven, I don't care.
Speaker 1: I just want to work. Yeah, I love that. I
Speaker 1: would love to work with you guys as well. That
Speaker 1: begs an interesting question. So when you're writing something and
Speaker 1: whether it's on Shadow Hunters or something else, did did
Speaker 1: anyone ever interpret something you wrote or or create the
Speaker 1: performance of it in a way that surprised you or
Speaker 1: kind of caught you off guard or something you didn't expect.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, Yeah, yeah, and that's the joy of writing.
Speaker 1: Like I'll have one way, like in my head as
Speaker 1: I'm typing it up and I sort of acted out
Speaker 1: with my dog as I wander around the house. We
Speaker 1: pay But then that's the joy of what we do.
Speaker 1: Everybody brings their own thing to it, and then you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't think of it in that way, and that's
Speaker 1: even better. You know, there's a there's like when I
Speaker 1: was writing Boston Legal, Um, James Spader can spin a
Speaker 1: closing argument like nobody can spend a closing argument like
Speaker 1: the and Mary McCormack on in Plane site would take
Speaker 1: material and you guys too. I mean, I'm just I
Speaker 1: don't want to embarrass you because you're here, but like
Speaker 1: you know, can take can take material and just elevated
Speaker 1: you guys did beautiful work as well, Like there were
Speaker 1: moments where it's the alchemy of actors spending years together
Speaker 1: that then you become the character so that it's not
Speaker 1: just me typing it and telling you what to say.
Speaker 1: It's hey, I've been being this person for the past
Speaker 1: three years. I don't think this person would do this.
Speaker 1: And then a conversation happens, and then if one thing
Speaker 1: needs to happen because the story needs to move forward,
Speaker 1: that conversation helps make it occur in a more organic way. Well,
Speaker 1: and that's something I always was so grateful for. With
Speaker 1: the Shadow Hunters writer's room is that, and with our
Speaker 1: producers is that if you know, as Dom and I,
Speaker 1: we we cared so much about these characters and still
Speaker 1: do clearly, and if we had a question or a
Speaker 1: thought or something we didn't understand, you were actually open
Speaker 1: to it. You didn't just listen to us and go okay,
Speaker 1: go off and do your job. You you actually took
Speaker 1: it into consideration and would either tell us, oh, no,
Speaker 1: this has to happen, but here's why, or there was
Speaker 1: a discussion and a conversation and it ultimately I think
Speaker 1: led to a deeper, richer story. For all of the characters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the only way I like to work. I have.
Speaker 1: I have a policy now for the rest of my
Speaker 1: career that I'm not going to work with people I
Speaker 1: don't like, and I'm not going to work with people
Speaker 1: that aren't collaborative. Like it's a nice people and professional people,
Speaker 1: which is most people you know, like I think you're
Speaker 1: working in which yeah, I also think that should be.
Speaker 1: That should just be the case with any career. Like
Speaker 1: there are times when you're forced you have no choice,
Speaker 1: like you work with people that you dislike. But if
Speaker 1: you can avoid that in the future, why wouldn't you, like,
Speaker 1: why would you put yourself back in that situation? It
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense to me, and I think that's a
Speaker 1: wonderful rule to have. So listeners, Michael Reitz is spinning gold.
Speaker 1: It's worth taking a note on that one. I think
Speaker 1: I gotta say as well, dude, like you have an
Speaker 1: aged you, it's like seven years your face, you look amazing. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you? Does it deal with the devil? What happened?
Speaker 1: There's a painting in the in my attic that keeps
Speaker 1: getting older. Yeah, yeah, no, well thank you. But you know,
Speaker 1: life is good, you know, I'm getting married in October. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm happy my parents, Thank you, Mom and pop. You know,
Speaker 1: I live fifteen minutes away from them, and dad's in
Speaker 1: his nineties and moms in her eighties. That's amazing. They're
Speaker 1: all excited to get gussied up and come to the wedding.
Speaker 1: So it's it's gonna be great. It's it's it's we're
Speaker 1: getting married because we want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what
Speaker 1: a wonderful Again, another wonderful message to get out there.
Speaker 1: What is what is wedding planning? Like, I'm now sort
Speaker 1: of approaching that age that like I was like what no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: hello listening being like wait a minute. I was like
Speaker 1: I was about to say something that would have to
Speaker 1: be edited. Never mind, hold on, let me gather myself. Okay,
Speaker 1: back to wedding planning. It's fun. It's fun. You know.
Speaker 1: My my fiance is an international event planner, so if
Speaker 1: he kind of knows what he's doing and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But that's why it's fun, I'm sure. Yeah. And it's
Speaker 1: like we're planning this thing together where our families are
Speaker 1: going to come together and it's just gonna be a
Speaker 1: big celebration. Amazing. How did you guys meet uh, okay
Speaker 1: Cupid one of those online things? Oh where Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: just about to go to one of my best friend's wedding,
Speaker 1: UM and they met on Tynda, like one of the
Speaker 1: very few like that where the stars just aligned that time,
Speaker 1: and they did so massively in love and I can't
Speaker 1: imagine either one of them without the other one, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we sort of looked at We sort of looked at it.
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't add for okay Cupid. Are they
Speaker 1: still around? We sort of looked at it. No, I
Speaker 1: didn't do an ad for it. No, no, no, I think,
Speaker 1: Oh I see we now accidentally didn't add by plugging
Speaker 1: them on your thing. Bless you can? Yeah, I supposed
Speaker 1: to anyway. I just want to say bless you. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we didn't know. My girlfriend and I just had a
Speaker 1: very similar like during the quarantine, we were doing like
Speaker 1: an online sort of games group thing that's part of
Speaker 1: this girl in one of her little squares the way
Speaker 1: you're seeing us now, like in one of those little squares,
Speaker 1: and I was like, she is super cute, but you know,
Speaker 1: you get that sense like she has a boyfriend. I
Speaker 1: can see in her eyes. She has a boyfriend. Not
Speaker 1: ask the question, but she has a boyfriend. And then
Speaker 1: I saw her face on one of the dating apps
Speaker 1: and I was like, huh, question mark. So I just
Speaker 1: I sent her a text and the rest is kind
Speaker 1: of I didn't even send her a text. I think
Speaker 1: I like super liked her. It showed how keen I
Speaker 1: was at that moment. I was like, I like, paid
Speaker 1: money is super like this. I don't know what's super
Speaker 1: liking is what's super liking. It's like it's the equivalent
Speaker 1: on these like dating swipe, where like instead of just swiping,
Speaker 1: you can like super swipe essentially like and it shows
Speaker 1: them that I'm super interested. I came in strong, Michael,
Speaker 1: I came in super. Yeah, that's how she likes to
Speaker 1: put it, for sure. Yeah, her and her parents like
Speaker 1: to call me that. And what about you? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm you didn't expect it to go this way, didn't
Speaker 1: YE know? I didn't know. I didn't, but but yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm aside from work, I'm really happy. I'm in
Speaker 1: a lovely dating a lovely guy, and it's, uh, it's
Speaker 1: really fantastic. I know, I haven't even talked to me
Speaker 1: about this yet, Oh my god, I'm sorry if any
Speaker 1: of this is none of my business, I just feel like, no,
Speaker 1: it's great, it's funny. It's funny because looking back on
Speaker 1: Shadow Hunters and like all the relationships that developed, and
Speaker 1: you know, it really taught us a lot about relationships.
Speaker 1: And I think the pandemic too, because my my boyfriend
Speaker 1: and I met during the pandemic and it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where you just you meet the right person,
Speaker 1: and pandemic kind of showed us how important those human
Speaker 1: connections are and how important it is to just focus
Speaker 1: on life as well as work, which is something I
Speaker 1: never really did well, you know what, because and I
Speaker 1: you know, I find this in a lot of actors
Speaker 1: and maybe you guys can tell me. It's all consuming
Speaker 1: at some point in in a lot of ways where
Speaker 1: you're selling yourself, like you're you're creating this business. You're
Speaker 1: selling a product. The product is you, and you're trying
Speaker 1: to make that product better and better and better. And
Speaker 1: there's so many elements to that, both the acting and
Speaker 1: then you get to a certain point where you have
Speaker 1: to do the publicity and this, and then unfortunately, the
Speaker 1: loss of a certain sense of privacy where that also
Speaker 1: then starts invading things. Finding that balance. It's really important,
Speaker 1: I think to always say I'm really fortunate and I
Speaker 1: really love what I do professionally, but the other cup
Speaker 1: has to be full or else things are just gonna
Speaker 1: get out of whack. You know the high and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad had to hear you both are navigating that beautifully.
Speaker 1: It's really really nice to see I knew as well. Man. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's made my heart feel really full. Speaking of difficulties balancing, um,
Speaker 1: was there were there episodes or either in Shadows or
Speaker 1: in anything? Is there anything that you found particularly difficult
Speaker 1: to write? Is there anything you sat down and got
Speaker 1: the block for a second you're like, wow, I really
Speaker 1: don't know. Every writer always faces blocks, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: even on Shadowmakers, uh your face block. So I guess
Speaker 1: two things. One, when I get writer's block, sometimes you
Speaker 1: have to step away from your computer and then think, Okay,
Speaker 1: what do these characters really want and what do I
Speaker 1: want to say with this? And then I do in
Speaker 1: this new house we built that there's in all of
Speaker 1: my houses, I've kind of have this path from my
Speaker 1: computer down the hall through a kitchen or whatever. It's
Speaker 1: like I can walk in a circle and my dog
Speaker 1: always like, I start pacing around the house and my
Speaker 1: dog always follows me. And then when I pray, I
Speaker 1: run to the computer and my dog jumps on her
Speaker 1: chair and I start typing again. And so usually if
Speaker 1: I get a block, I'll go to what what what's
Speaker 1: this character about? Like what is this character feeling at
Speaker 1: this moment? Because usually I get a block. Happens when
Speaker 1: I just don't know what's happening next, like what this
Speaker 1: character wants. I'm just trying to write to a result
Speaker 1: as opposed to say, okay, what would really happen? And
Speaker 1: then usually it sorts itself out after hitting your head
Speaker 1: against the wall for a while. Production wise, executive producing
Speaker 1: a show, you're juggling a lot of things, and so
Speaker 1: there's scripture writing, scripture shooting, scripture and post on and
Speaker 1: they're all happening at the same time, and you all
Speaker 1: have to keep it on budget. And I'm sure you
Speaker 1: all remember those shooting days where at the end of
Speaker 1: the days you have the eight two producers huddling in
Speaker 1: a video village going we gotta we gotta gotta move on,
Speaker 1: move on, Move on. It's like you know, and it's
Speaker 1: like one more tape, no, you know, being able to
Speaker 1: navigate around certain things, like you write big battle scene
Speaker 1: and then it ends up being three people fighting in
Speaker 1: an alley, you know, because of production. But there are
Speaker 1: ways to make it work, you know, there are ways
Speaker 1: to make it work that you have to always recognize.
Speaker 1: And it's it's one of the things that has helped me,
Speaker 1: I guess is there's a studio and there's people giving
Speaker 1: you a lot of money every episode to make a movie.
Speaker 1: They're they're giving you money and you have to return
Speaker 1: their investment, you know, on budget and on time. And
Speaker 1: so if something is going to go skyrocketing over budget,
Speaker 1: you have to find a way to rewrite it so
Speaker 1: that your intent can come around, can come across, while
Speaker 1: still recognizing the business aspect of this, because it's not
Speaker 1: just endless money being thrown at something that's that's those
Speaker 1: are the because that's such as that's such an interesting
Speaker 1: sort of parallel that you you in particular, is very
Speaker 1: few people that were going to get on this show
Speaker 1: that have this like creative business in parallel at all times,
Speaker 1: you know. Um So it's such an interesting thing to
Speaker 1: hear that like having to balance the like what of
Speaker 1: my creative side do I sacrifice to make sure that
Speaker 1: the whole thing gets done? But then one am I
Speaker 1: unwilling to sacrifice to for the money or whatever it is?
Speaker 1: You know, it's such a tricky Yeah, I can do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not always even a sacrifice. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how can we alter it so that we can still
Speaker 1: get everything emotionally that we want um while being able
Speaker 1: to pay for it? You know right that there's just
Speaker 1: hard realities to to show running and producing that you
Speaker 1: want to give you guys the best material to perform um. Well,
Speaker 1: at the same time you're having any two people yelling
Speaker 1: at you, and you're getting ninety thousand texts in video
Speaker 1: village saying pull it, move on, and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's always a couple of producers that turn up. The
Speaker 1: line producer is normally one. If the line producer turn
Speaker 1: up to set at the end of the day, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're running late and we need to get going. But
Speaker 1: that's when the that I think Shadow Hunters became such
Speaker 1: a beautiful show as that, Yeah, it's with any TV show,
Speaker 1: we had limited resources but all of our departments, as
Speaker 1: you said, Michael, really came together and really put their
Speaker 1: all and all of their passion into getting creative and
Speaker 1: working together and sharing those resources to figure out, Okay,
Speaker 1: how can we all help each other to create a
Speaker 1: cohesive world. And you particularly saw it, I think one
Speaker 1: of the first times it takes. You know, it takes
Speaker 1: a few episodes for a show to gel and figure
Speaker 1: things out, but the Malik episode in in season one
Speaker 1: is really where all of those elements meshed in such
Speaker 1: a way. It really was. I got two stories on them,
Speaker 1: two behind the scenes stories on the Mountain tell Us
Speaker 1: tell us spell It. One. One is you two guys
Speaker 1: like I watched you both when you weren't being shot.
Speaker 1: I've been on shows where the lead actors would shoot
Speaker 1: their stuff and not stay for coverage of their partners.
Speaker 1: They would not you guys. There's there's very two very
Speaker 1: specific moment said I don't even know who you were rehearsing,
Speaker 1: but I remember the guest stars that you guys were
Speaker 1: working with wanted to run their lines and you both
Speaker 1: pulled them aside off to the side, and you just said,
Speaker 1: that's remand and I was like, we've got really quality
Speaker 1: leads who are in this to help the overall show.
Speaker 1: It's not let me storm back to my trailer and
Speaker 1: lock the door. It's you know, you guys always I
Speaker 1: always watched everybody, um. And you guys always always were
Speaker 1: generous with your time, especially with the guest actors who
Speaker 1: came in. We both worked with people and said hey,
Speaker 1: if you need more time, um, and you always stayed
Speaker 1: for coverage. It was great. And then in the actual wedding,
Speaker 1: I just remember we were looking at it and then
Speaker 1: and and and it's Stephanie, right, Stephanie was the actress. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's wonderful and she uh and and we were like, okay,
Speaker 1: how's this gonna look. We were setting it up and
Speaker 1: literally like two minutes before we were shooting, We're like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, she's not holding flowers, like she has
Speaker 1: nothing in her hands. She's walking it. She's like what
Speaker 1: do I do with my hands that We're like, oh geez,
Speaker 1: what do I remember running through the whole building like
Speaker 1: who's got flowers? And then quickly perhaps grabbed the red
Speaker 1: flowers and like hey, look beautiful. Fine, and the said
Speaker 1: just like and then she walked out and it was gorgeous.
Speaker 1: So those flowers, like nineties seconds beforehand weren't there, and
Speaker 1: so we just threw the flowers and I'm like, hold on,
Speaker 1: that's what you do with you that's amazing. And she
Speaker 1: did a beautiful job. She really did a beautiful job.
Speaker 1: Amazing talking about that the other day, we had so
Speaker 1: many guest stars who came on and just absolutely smash
Speaker 1: it and just committed to the world as much as
Speaker 1: we did. But you know, there's dom and I have
Speaker 1: been that guest star on set so many times and
Speaker 1: and I know, I mean, I'm sure I can speak
Speaker 1: for you on this, tom but we want to be
Speaker 1: that person we want to foster. We want to be
Speaker 1: the leads that we wanted or had on those shows,
Speaker 1: and not only lead, but host these people and make
Speaker 1: them You're comfortable, because that's when people will do their
Speaker 1: best work. That's a great way putting it. And you
Speaker 1: did the Meryl Streep thing, isn't it? Is it Meryl
Speaker 1: Streep or Hell of Mirro And I can't remember which one.
Speaker 1: They said they better off camera. They make an intentional
Speaker 1: choice to be a hundred and ten percent off camera
Speaker 1: because the scene, like you don't look good in a
Speaker 1: scene because of just you. You look good in a
Speaker 1: scene because you're both good because the scene looks good.
Speaker 1: You know, the James Bond thing of like who is
Speaker 1: your favorite James Bond? I think the more interesting question
Speaker 1: is who is your favorite villain? Because your favorite James
Speaker 1: Bond was only James Bond against a villain, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. You have to have the two to
Speaker 1: play with. So I I know, for myself and Cat
Speaker 1: and many of the actors that I've worked with my
Speaker 1: career foster a similar sort of ethos um the like
Speaker 1: and the reality is, you know, between you, me and
Speaker 1: the pets and everyone else listening, they pay us a
Speaker 1: fortune to do this. Like for the concept of people
Speaker 1: being selfish with their time doesn't make any sense to me. Like,
Speaker 1: it's such a it's such a silly thing to do.
Speaker 1: I've had circumstances where actors actors have not been you guys,
Speaker 1: where the lead actor would mock people and mock the
Speaker 1: crew and yeah, and and finally I just stepped in
Speaker 1: and I said, we're cutting the scene. And the actor
Speaker 1: was like, what are you talking about? And I said,
Speaker 1: I'm rewriting it. You're done for the day. They were like, wow,
Speaker 1: So that's an interesting question. You know, the three of
Speaker 1: us all having worked with these people, these kinds of
Speaker 1: people in the past, Like, at what point you you
Speaker 1: have sort of a somewhat special power in that you
Speaker 1: are the EP that has the responsibility of being able
Speaker 1: to say no, no, unacceptable, and also the writer with
Speaker 1: the responsibility of being like, I can actually change this,
Speaker 1: like I can actually write this out right now. You
Speaker 1: pull the card very rarely, and you have to get
Speaker 1: approvals by lots of people. So I didn't just willing
Speaker 1: really just go and do that because it impacts a
Speaker 1: lot of things. Yeah, but by the time it gets
Speaker 1: to that point, an individual will an individual's behavior will
Speaker 1: be known. And so it's an advice to anybody entering
Speaker 1: a set. Everybody watches, everybody knows, and everybody, even up
Speaker 1: to the network executives, knows what's happening on a set.
Speaker 1: So just play nights and be professional. Everybody's working. The
Speaker 1: crew works the hardest. They're carrying heavy, heavy things, and
Speaker 1: for someone to come in and start not acting professionally
Speaker 1: around people who are breaking their backs to make them
Speaker 1: look good, that really rubs me wrong. You know, it's
Speaker 1: just it's not right. I think as well like it
Speaker 1: as are as the producing side of it. And I've
Speaker 1: not done this yet, but I think I think anyone
Speaker 1: doing anything needs to be given at least one opportunity
Speaker 1: to rectify their behavior. You need to be told this sucks,
Speaker 1: you're making people uncomfortable, this is happening, You've made a mistake,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I'm making you aware that this is
Speaker 1: not acceptable. This, this is not how we do things here.
Speaker 1: And then fingers crossed, that person changes and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, okay, great cool, and then it's you know,
Speaker 1: then it's a better environment for everybody. The other side
Speaker 1: of that is it doesn't change, or you know, you're
Speaker 1: told where to go whatever it is, and then you're like, well,
Speaker 1: it's a change needs to be made somewhere. And like
Speaker 1: if you're the one breaking people's bags, So you never
Speaker 1: want to write someone off a show, you never want to.
Speaker 1: You always want to give people the opportunity. Like I
Speaker 1: always find it funny like actors on magic shows that
Speaker 1: have supernatural magic things going on, they don't realize who
Speaker 1: spells cast You can be turned into a net, but
Speaker 1: no one wants to do that. But I also imagined
Speaker 1: from an actor's perspective, and you guys tell me, you
Speaker 1: guys are also in a bubble sometimes, and so like
Speaker 1: I go back and forth from Toronto to Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: and you guys are living in this bubble. So sometimes
Speaker 1: I wonder if, like what's going on in that bubble
Speaker 1: where you're wondering what's going on in l A. And like,
Speaker 1: the communication has to be constant, I think for it
Speaker 1: to really gel I agree. But then also the other
Speaker 1: side of it as well, where it's like I couldn't
Speaker 1: imagine being a writer with a difficult actor who's constantly
Speaker 1: calling I don't like this, I want this change, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. There's that balance of communication where it's like
Speaker 1: I know, for me, the things that I tend to,
Speaker 1: the things that I tend to call up about, and
Speaker 1: I always I talk to myself about it just the
Speaker 1: first sign of madness. That's but like, is this a
Speaker 1: hill I'm willing to die on? Like is this something
Speaker 1: that I believe in enough to actually cause someone else
Speaker 1: more work? Because that's what it's going to do at
Speaker 1: the end of the day. That's why I think Shadow
Speaker 1: Hunters did work so well is because we figured out
Speaker 1: you all left your doors open for us to feel
Speaker 1: comfortable enough too. I mean, this was, you know, my
Speaker 1: first big lead job and and my first job where
Speaker 1: I had any semblance of place to say anything about
Speaker 1: the words on the page and the character I was playing,
Speaker 1: and the fact that you made it such a comfortable
Speaker 1: space too, to take that creative authority and go, hey,
Speaker 1: you have the full story. But on boots on the ground,
Speaker 1: there's a couple of things that you know, I need
Speaker 1: more information or this doesn't necessarily make sense, or I
Speaker 1: just and and just being able to have a conversation,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people you know, in any industry
Speaker 1: don't realize that just communication and having a conversation about
Speaker 1: something is the easiest way to just make everything easy.
Speaker 1: And yeah, from both sides, being heard is such a gift. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's and that's that's what I was going to say,
Speaker 1: is one of the most important things, Like everybody needs
Speaker 1: to be heard and sometimes you're not. I was going
Speaker 1: to get the answer, what but what I would hopefully do.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if I ever did this to
Speaker 1: you guys. I think I did um too. That's like
Speaker 1: the wrong way of saying I would say like, I
Speaker 1: would hear you out and then if like say it
Speaker 1: was super stressful, they had try and smile and uh
Speaker 1: and then I and then I would saying like, if
Speaker 1: there's different ways you want to say something like we
Speaker 1: need to get one as written and then if there's time,
Speaker 1: let's play with it. Is usually because like we would
Speaker 1: have a conversation about it, and I would hear you
Speaker 1: like and understand where you're coming from. I also understand what,
Speaker 1: like whether it was network notes that we have to
Speaker 1: respond to. So there's so many different levels that we
Speaker 1: don't have power to change, like they needed that. Like
Speaker 1: it's this like show running. You're sort of in the
Speaker 1: middle and then you're navigating making sure everything happens, and
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful job, but it's like and so usually
Speaker 1: I'll be like, all right, let's make sure we get
Speaker 1: one as written and then let's play with it if
Speaker 1: there's time, you know. And that's kind of how I
Speaker 1: navigate that, which is small. If it's done well you
Speaker 1: if it's done, I'll usually be like, okay, and then
Speaker 1: we'll just do it how I want to do. We've
Speaker 1: definitely had that conversation. Remember I felt so bad there
Speaker 1: was one time where I was teasing you, I'm not
Speaker 1: even gonna go into it, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, that I hurt his feelings. And then you
Speaker 1: pulled one on me because you pretended you were upset.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. We we did have that relationship and we
Speaker 1: we we really did. We did play with each other
Speaker 1: quite a lot, which is nice. It's it's such a
Speaker 1: British thing, which is it's a difficult thing for me
Speaker 1: to navigate when I especially when I work in the
Speaker 1: States or with Americans, Like I'll say stuff, and I'll
Speaker 1: play and I'll toy with people, and then every now
Speaker 1: and then I get that American or a reaction from
Speaker 1: an American that's like and I'm like, oh ship, that
Speaker 1: was it. That was the line. Yeah, And with with Cat,
Speaker 1: like in The Best Boss Boy, I always viewed you
Speaker 1: as sort of like like my little sister that I
Speaker 1: need to protect because you're carrying this big burden and
Speaker 1: so to the extent that it could be lightened or
Speaker 1: at least you know what I mean, because a lot
Speaker 1: of times I think clear and wonderful things to do.
Speaker 1: But you know, in the whole Abbot and Casello of it,
Speaker 1: you had to be the straight person, you know, where
Speaker 1: everybody else is going wild. And then it's like I'm Clary,
Speaker 1: I'm it's like you had a ton of like really
Speaker 1: solid important things to do that we all appreciate it
Speaker 1: obviously as did you don't, but it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're going through this journey of a girl who didn't
Speaker 1: know her past or her future, and you're you know,
Speaker 1: we're following your journey. Um, you were like the spine
Speaker 1: that kind of had to be like, Okay, I'm not
Speaker 1: always getting the wild, wacky things to do, but you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: like you get like you carry that beautiful thank you well.
Speaker 1: And to that point, I never felt stagnant as a character,
Speaker 1: not once in the entire series, and that that's always
Speaker 1: a gift when you're you know, as dumb can attest
Speaker 1: to working on a series for years, it can be
Speaker 1: you don't always necessarily see the character growth that you
Speaker 1: want to. And with Shadow Hunters, I always felt that
Speaker 1: and and especially in the lovely metaphor you just put
Speaker 1: forth always feeling like you can trust your writers and
Speaker 1: your producers and going I think we've got this or
Speaker 1: you know, I know In in episode twelve, in Clary
Speaker 1: that Clarie and Lydia has seen. We had no time.
Speaker 1: It was the end of a long day and we
Speaker 1: were but we just did the rewatch of this episode
Speaker 1: and I remember being so hopeful that we got what
Speaker 1: we needed and we did because the crew came together
Speaker 1: and did it, and you were able to and our
Speaker 1: director and everyone else kind of came to James. James
Speaker 1: didn't great. It was yeah, yeah, really, your memory is
Speaker 1: pretty impeccable. It was seven years ago and you've done
Speaker 1: so much since then. This is really quite as I'm
Speaker 1: I'm I'm my age. I feel the age in my joints. Right. No, No,
Speaker 1: that was that was That was a really good experience.
Speaker 1: And what when we didn't we stay? Like where did
Speaker 1: we stay? Oh? You guys stayed in different place. There
Speaker 1: was Blue Jay Stadium. Yeah, we that area though we were,
Speaker 1: we didn't move there from there For all that, I
Speaker 1: love my life here because I'm based here in my home.
Speaker 1: You know, acting is exciting, and it's like it takes
Speaker 1: a certain strength of character to be a journeyman actor
Speaker 1: and say hey, I'm going to lift up my life
Speaker 1: and move it to Toronto for four years. I'm going
Speaker 1: to move it to London. I'm going to move it
Speaker 1: to Hill Like, how is that? Like? For you? It's nuts, dude,
Speaker 1: It's really nuts. And the tricky thing for me is
Speaker 1: like that period in between, you know, your contractual obligations,
Speaker 1: so that you whatever it is from the last day filming,
Speaker 1: six months, twelve months, whatever it is, Like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going back, So we do
Speaker 1: you keep apartments? Is it cheaper to get rid of
Speaker 1: the apartment? Like do I send myself back to where
Speaker 1: I'm going? Like, we don't know. And even shadow ins
Speaker 1: is like we would we we'd started seeing the reaction
Speaker 1: before it it had adds, so we we sort of
Speaker 1: somewhat new, like people are excit id about this, really
Speaker 1: excited about it, but it was still six months. We
Speaker 1: didn't know for six months and during that time and
Speaker 1: then contractually you're not allowed to do other things and whatever,
Speaker 1: and you're just like in this I'm in it now
Speaker 1: with with partner track, You're just in this holding pattern
Speaker 1: where it's like what do we do? Like what is
Speaker 1: that you know? So that's it's tricky. But again, when
Speaker 1: you're when you're lucky enough that something goes on we
Speaker 1: were on this for four years. When you're lucky enough
Speaker 1: that that's the case, you know, picking up your suitcases
Speaker 1: and moving into a spot, it does become like Emeralds
Speaker 1: said it the best the other day when we were
Speaker 1: talking to her. She said, it becomes a home away
Speaker 1: from home. And it does you make it like your
Speaker 1: little home away from home. Even my trailer was like
Speaker 1: by the end, it was and like out like photos
Speaker 1: up by the end. But it's so yeah. But it's
Speaker 1: nice because when you're working with such a great group
Speaker 1: of people, both in the writer's room and on set,
Speaker 1: you don't feel as alone. And we're kind of this
Speaker 1: you know, traveling circus. We're we're kind of the you know,
Speaker 1: the modern nomads of a world that can kind of
Speaker 1: just pick up and go all right, I'm gonna just
Speaker 1: bloom more. I'm planted here and use my off time
Speaker 1: to care to see the people that I love that
Speaker 1: I don't get to see. And you kind of learned
Speaker 1: to prioritize in that way. But the Station eleven, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, it forces you to live in the
Speaker 1: present and live in the moment as much as you
Speaker 1: possibly can. I'm so happy Amon's working she's written with
Speaker 1: my friend Gloria, and I'm like, it's just such a
Speaker 1: lovely show. I'm so happy for her. Yeah, amazing, So
Speaker 1: if you talk to her, definitely. So when when we
Speaker 1: did Shadow, and says we we when Cat and I
Speaker 1: were made aware of it, it was two series. It
Speaker 1: was straight to series already, so we knew that it
Speaker 1: was thirteen episodes they're going to do, which is pretty
Speaker 1: uncommon for a TV show for them to put, you know,
Speaker 1: especially episodes worth of money and something before it's whatever.
Speaker 1: So when you joined was what did what information did
Speaker 1: you know and what was the process through there? Did
Speaker 1: you still have to write a pilot and get that
Speaker 1: approved or was it you know that you were writing
Speaker 1: thirteen episodes of story. I didn't write the pilot. A
Speaker 1: doctor wrote the pilot, right, came on after when he
Speaker 1: was staffing up. Yeah, so Ed and I think Pete
Speaker 1: guys remember Pete? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was as assistant at the time, and then he's going
Speaker 1: into an amazing right, and I just went to his way,
Speaker 1: I know, congratate he like, they had to write the
Speaker 1: pilot and then from what I understand, get it approved,
Speaker 1: signed off on and then I think they internationally financed.
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how it worked. It was one
Speaker 1: of the first models where they did it that way
Speaker 1: and then took the package to free Form, I believe,
Speaker 1: but they'd be lanced that much better than I could.
Speaker 1: So when I when I came on, I knew they
Speaker 1: were going to be thirteen episodes for the first season.
Speaker 1: So you, yeah, you were with us, Because that's the
Speaker 1: interesting thing. I suppose. The follow up question to that is,
Speaker 1: I get asked quite a lot, do you prefer doing
Speaker 1: movies or TV? Both have elements that I love, and
Speaker 1: both have elements that are difficult, And the main one
Speaker 1: is when you're doing TV, you never you don't know
Speaker 1: the full story arc of this character ever at any point. Really,
Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to get thirteen episodes, you might
Speaker 1: know the rough like outline of what happens in those thirteen,
Speaker 1: but you don't know season two, you don't know season three.
Speaker 1: And with a movie, safe for sort of alterations or additions,
Speaker 1: you kind of know this arc and you can plan
Speaker 1: for this this arc. So you, guys, when you were
Speaker 1: in the writing room, when you were producing, you were
Speaker 1: setting it up like a thirteen episode sort of movie,
Speaker 1: like you knew the button ends of what was going
Speaker 1: to happen. That's awesome. Usually, when you're going into a
Speaker 1: new season at a TV show, whether it's a season
Speaker 1: two or three, whatever are, you're pitching out your first
Speaker 1: you need to present sort of like the art Clary
Speaker 1: will start here. By episode three or four, you'll kind
Speaker 1: of go through this or go here, and by the
Speaker 1: end of season one, our cliffhanger will have Clary doing this.
Speaker 1: We'll do that through each character and so, and then
Speaker 1: the network gives you lats and lights and lots to
Speaker 1: know the studio getting and you sort of negotiate and
Speaker 1: you navigate and they say, okay, go to script on those.
Speaker 1: And so we kind of had an idea, but you know,
Speaker 1: there were times that fruitful conversations were had where there
Speaker 1: were differences of opinion, I believe, where they were trying
Speaker 1: to figure out should we end the season on this
Speaker 1: or should we have it be mid season? But we've
Speaker 1: already written like thirteen episodes, so they're like, can you
Speaker 1: condense those thirteen into six and then just write six more?
Speaker 1: We're like, well, and then then no, wait to go
Speaker 1: back and like so there was a lot of and
Speaker 1: it's all done with the best of intentions. I think
Speaker 1: people are trying to figure out the writer's room craziness
Speaker 1: is before things start shooting, when you're trying to navigate
Speaker 1: all that stuff. So that's where the hurricane hits the
Speaker 1: writer's room a lot of the times. It so interesting,
Speaker 1: do you is that when you prefer Do you prefer
Speaker 1: writing the pilot and then being able to slowly sit
Speaker 1: into it or do you prefer having the block of
Speaker 1: everything and knowing this story? Well, I think like when
Speaker 1: I pitch out pilots, I don't pitch out a pilot
Speaker 1: without knowing what I want the entire season to be,
Speaker 1: and then and then themes for like two or three.
Speaker 1: But but that will always alter. I mean, once it
Speaker 1: takes on a life of its own, then things shift
Speaker 1: and change and you bob and weave. But like, um,
Speaker 1: you kind of have to know where things are going
Speaker 1: or where you hope to take them, because otherwise you're
Speaker 1: just writing the movie. I've been in circumstances where early
Speaker 1: in my career, staffed on shows where the pilot was
Speaker 1: really good and they're like, I don't know what happens,
Speaker 1: and then you're like, uh, because you need to you
Speaker 1: need to know where you're hoping to go, and then
Speaker 1: if it doesn't work, then through that you figure out
Speaker 1: what does work to our process when we're getting the scripts,
Speaker 1: because obviously we don't know the full character arc when
Speaker 1: we're doing a TV show, and we'll we'll sort of
Speaker 1: have an idea of where we think it's going based
Speaker 1: on our conversations with the producers and the writers and
Speaker 1: the scripts that we have, but then inevitably you get
Speaker 1: a script and you go, oh, I wish I would
Speaker 1: have known that three episodes ago. Okay, let me see
Speaker 1: how I can navigate and sort of readjust what I'm
Speaker 1: doing to fit this. And it's that's why I love TV,
Speaker 1: because it's a fun game you get to play, as
Speaker 1: it were. Well, the cool thing about that is like, like,
Speaker 1: let's say you do get a scripture, like, hey, I
Speaker 1: didn't know that would happen. We probably didn't know that
Speaker 1: would happen. But all the amazing writers that you assemble
Speaker 1: pull from their lives and you're you're in the writers
Speaker 1: from telling stories about your life, and like, oh, that
Speaker 1: reminds me of when this happened to me and Baha
Speaker 1: and you're like, holy cow, can we work that into
Speaker 1: the script, And then a new thing happens to Clary,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, that's I mean TV.
Speaker 1: I like the regularity of TV quite frankly, like um,
Speaker 1: I would say, I prefer well, I like them both.
Speaker 1: I think I prefer TV simply because in the past,
Speaker 1: at least historically, writers have been in charge of television.
Speaker 1: Then you become the exact producers and the showrunners, whereas
Speaker 1: in film. I love the experience as well, but you
Speaker 1: sort of hand it off and you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: I hope it turns out okay, And I've been fortunate
Speaker 1: in that respect. But you know, yeah, and it's nice
Speaker 1: to be able to build that, you know, for people
Speaker 1: who love stories as much as we do. To be
Speaker 1: able to build that longevity and keep building upon and
Speaker 1: you know, creating depth in these characters that you live
Speaker 1: with for thirty years. Yeah, and also held having a
Speaker 1: job for a longer period of time for me is great.
Speaker 1: I love that, Yeah, seriously, it's Yeah. The hardest thing
Speaker 1: for me was, like, you go from the steady gig
Speaker 1: as a lawyer with a family that wants you to
Speaker 1: have a steady gig to the being comfortable with the unknown,
Speaker 1: which is a constant struggle for me. You know, I've
Speaker 1: been doing this for twenty years, and I've been making
Speaker 1: my living at it for twenty years, and I've been
Speaker 1: very lucky and grateful, and I still go, Okay, I
Speaker 1: just turned that in what's next. Oh my god, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, oh my god. Then the next thing happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's like that internal panic where you're like, Okay, no,
Speaker 1: things are fine, And I think all of you guys
Speaker 1: are working with friends of mine, Like is Anna Freaky
Speaker 1: involved in walk Around? Yeah? She involved in. Yeah, she's amazing.
Speaker 1: She She and I were on Privilege together under Rena
Speaker 1: Ma Moon and she's and is brilliant. Um and um
Speaker 1: you you did City of Angels right, the Kendall Kendall
Speaker 1: Nichols I think was your She was your a D,
Speaker 1: one of your a D Yeah, yes, yeah, And she's
Speaker 1: a dear, dear friend of ours. She's awesome. So I love.
Speaker 1: I love when all of my friends work with all
Speaker 1: of my friends and everybody gets to know each other.
Speaker 1: It's like that's the best part about this where you
Speaker 1: go through for twenty years and like everybody crosses and
Speaker 1: everybody gets to know each other, and hopefully the good
Speaker 1: people find each other, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: that's lovely. I think that's great. So, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful that our paths crossed, and let's hope it's
Speaker 1: not the as time. They will again. They will again.
Speaker 1: In fact, I'll be honest. One of my my fiance's
Speaker 1: favorite channels is Hallmark and apparently there's a Hallmark movie
Speaker 1: that he's like, cats, Cats movie, Let's watch it again.
Speaker 1: So I think we're watching it this week. Let me
Speaker 1: know what you think. It's It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: It's a really sweet movie. Yeah. Yeah, so that's that's
Speaker 1: that's like our nightcap. That's great. Actually, don't think there's
Speaker 1: a better way to draw this to an end. What
Speaker 1: a wonderful We don't want to take up any more
Speaker 1: of your time, and what a wonderful way to to
Speaker 1: round this out. Michael, has been such a joy to
Speaker 1: talk to you again. Thank you so much, Thank you
Speaker 1: for so proud of you guys. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: This has been great. Bat Return to the Shadows is
Speaker 1: hosted and executive produced by Katheryn McNamara and Dominic Sherwood.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Langley. Our senior producers are Liz
Speaker 1: Hayes and dar Go Autopia, and our producers are Hannah
Speaker 1: Harris and Kristin Vermeilia. Original music by Alex Kinsey and
Speaker 1: performed by Alex Kinsey and Kathryn McNamara. H