1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Revals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beefs and 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: feuds and long summering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and today we're gonna be talking about possibly 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: the defining music period of the century. So far, touches 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: on sexism, racism, reality driven culture as a discussion of 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: an older man publicly disrespecting a talented younger woman, as 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: a discussion of white privilege and how we treat people 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: of color in this country. It examines how fickle public 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: taste can be, and it's a scary look at how 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: social media can be weaponized. I think that's kind of 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: part of the reason why this feod is so compelling. 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: And let's not forget the songs are pretty great. Yeah, 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: And for those who haven't figured it out yet, we 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: are talking about Taylor Swift versus Kanye West. And this is, 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: as you said, probably the most famous feud of the 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: early twenty first century for all the reasons that you 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: just mentioned. I feel like this is like a real 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: roar shock test because, as you said, some people look 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: at it as a story about sexism. You know, some 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: people see it as a story about racism, and the 22 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: context keeps changing here. You know. Just remember that at 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: one time, not that long ago, people were talking about 24 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift being like the favorite artist of the alt right. 25 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: People were looking at Kanye West as this outspoken critic 26 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: of Republican presidents like George W. Bush. And now we 27 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: have Taylor Swift going on Twitter and tweeting out against 28 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: white supremacy, and Kanye has gone full maga. So I 29 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: feel like in a year when people listen to this podcast, 30 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: the context could totally change again, you know. So it's 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: easy why this rivalry has launched a million think pieces. 32 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Uh So, there's a lot to get into this here, 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: and uh I think we should stop wasting time. So 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into this mess. All right, 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: Let's meet our fighters first. The Kanye West, the i'd say, 36 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: the architect of early twenty first century hip hop and 37 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: potentially unimpeachable string of groundbreaking multi platinum albums and hip 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: production work behind him, but by two thousand nine had 39 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: become known equally for his boasts and outbursts, especially at 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: awards shows. He stormed out of the two thousand four 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: American Musical Wars after losing Best New Artist to Gretchen Wilson, 42 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: whom I don't remember at all, and hijacking the stage 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: of the two thousand six MTV Europe Music Awards when 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: he was bested by Justice versus Simeon for Best Video. 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: I barely remember them either. In November two thousand seven, 46 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: his mother died unexpectedly during elective surgery, and he really 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: that sent him into an emotional tail spin for i'd 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: say the rest of the decade, and I say it 49 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: would probably contribute to what goes down at the two 50 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: thousand nine v m A S. Yeah, I just want 51 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: to say quick to that, like and this is I'm 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: gonna show my bias here early in this episode those 53 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: things that you mentioned, I think Kanye was right. Maybe 54 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 1: maybe you want to dispute his his means of expressing 55 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: his outrage in those instances, but losing Best New Artist 56 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: to Gretchen Wilson, the Red Nick Woman, I mean, you know, 57 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: respect to Gretchen Wilson, but I think it's fair to 58 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: say that Kanye deserved that award right, And I think 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: this will show up again and again. He generally has 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: right to be outraged, but again that the means that 61 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: he expresses it, I could use some work, So I 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: I agree with you there. Uh, but this brings us 63 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: the Taylor Swift, an up and comer back in two 64 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: thousand nine. It's crazy to remember a time when she 65 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: was an up and comer. Then she was nineteen years old. 66 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: She was the biggest selling pop artist of two thousand 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: and eight. Her sophomore album Fearless was an incredible country 68 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: crossover hit, sold seven million copies in the US alone 69 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: and spawned five platinum singles, all but one went Top twenty. 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: So she wasn't the icon she'd become, but she was 71 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: already clearly a powerhouse. Yeah, It's it's crazy to look 72 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: at Taylor Swift's early career and to think like, well, 73 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: she was still building to what she would become, and 74 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: yet as you said, she was doing the kind of 75 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: numbers that like the typical pop artist would look at 76 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: as the pinnacle of their career, Like Fearless was just 77 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: like a stop on the way to her ultimate status. 78 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: As like, like, what's Taylor Swift now? She's like our 79 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: overlord of stadium country, you know, like we are just 80 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: you know, subjects in Taylor Swift kingdom at this point. 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: So these two are different points in their career leading 82 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: up to the two thousand Video Music Awards, And look, 83 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: I feel like we all remember this incident. You know. 84 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: It is again like it's a clip that's been replayed, 85 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, thousands of times, so many people have written 86 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: about it. But just to kind of give a brief 87 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 1: overview here, Taylor Swift is up for Best Female Music Video, 88 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: going up against Beyonce. I think Lady Gaga was in 89 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: that category for poker Face, And it's like a pretty 90 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: stack category that year, like lots of big heavyweights. And 91 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: wasn't there a thing too leading up to this, like 92 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: where Kanye was was spotted like taken huge swigs of hennessy, 93 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: like he was kind of loaded at this point? Is 94 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: that fair to say? Oh? Yeah, he was, Like all 95 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: the red carpet shots, he just like that's his accessory, 96 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: is just like a ball of hennessy on the red carpet. 97 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, it was. And all the MTV staff members 98 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: were like whispering, like should we get the camera off him? 99 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: Like he's this is clearly not a good He's not 100 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: in a good space right now. So yeah, it was 101 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: a bad day for him. I mean, I feel like 102 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: most people at these shows are probably wasted. At least 103 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: I hope they are, because award shows are pretty interminable, 104 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: so hopefully they they have some sort of chemical assistance 105 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: to help them get through it. But I think they 106 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: were swarting for not bringing the bottle on the red carpet, 107 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: though that's the bar exactly. You know, have have some 108 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: discretion with your boozing at award shows. So you know, 109 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, she ends up winning the award, going up 110 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: on stage, and then Kanye burst in and he says 111 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: that you know, I'm gonna let you finish famously, I'm 112 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: gonna let you finish, And he says that Beyonce they 113 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: should have won for Single Ladies, which I feel like 114 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: you have some disagreement on this. I would say that 115 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: he was right in that instance, but like, were you 116 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: are you like a poker face stand here? Like do 117 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: you feel like that should have been the proper winner 118 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine? I don't know, because then I 119 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: went back and watched them both side by side, and 120 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Single Ladies is pretty iconic. I think Gaga, 121 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: I guess because she was the newbie that year. I 122 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: can kind of understand why, you know, Beyonce probably especially 123 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: at that era, I seem to deserve it more. I 124 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: think of Gaga more. I think more of her videos 125 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: now with you know everything that came after that with 126 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: Alejandro and bad Romance and all the telephone in the 127 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: video with Beyonce. But I guess back then it probably 128 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: seems like I'm Kanye was saying it was the pinnacle 129 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: of her her video, Beyonce's lengthy video career at that point, 130 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: because what it has already been ten years into her 131 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: career at that point for Beyonce. So whatever you want 132 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: to say, whoever should have won, Taylor Swift is the 133 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: one who wins for you belong with me. And as 134 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: we said, she's ascendant at this point, and she started 135 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: out as a country start, but she's going into the 136 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: pop realm already. You kind of like this might be 137 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: an instance of an award show trying to be ahead 138 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: of the curve a little bit. Award shows often like 139 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: to do that. They like to coronate the young star, 140 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: give them a leg up, just to show that they're 141 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: with it and they can be a king or a 142 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: queen maker. That might have been what was going on 143 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: in this instance, Taylor gets the award, Kanye gets upset, 144 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: people start booing Kanye almost immediately, and then Kanye, which 145 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: you know everyone always talks about the Emily let you 146 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: finish thing, but I like that he just sort of 147 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: shrugs again, like, but people are booing him, and then 148 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, my in my in my memory, I he 149 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: spikes the moon Man, but I've since watched the clip 150 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: and he does not do that. But I like my better. 151 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: And this is something we'll get into in this episode 152 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: because I feel like there was a massive overreaction to this, 153 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: like and I think if you watch the clip again, 154 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: it's clear that Kanye is being rude and pushy and 155 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: he's interrupting Taylor Swift's moment. But at the same time, 156 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: for me, I think award shows are stupid and I 157 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: think that that they're very boring. So I actually think 158 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: this moment is pretty awesome because it's the rare instance 159 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,119 Speaker 1: of something spontaneous happening in award show that you would 160 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: never expect. It's actually interesting. It's like something that people 161 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: still talk about, like most awards shows are here and 162 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: then they're gone, Yeah exactly. So on that level, just 163 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: like as a pop culture observer, like I love this 164 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: event and I love that Kanye did it, even though 165 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: and we'll get into this, you can dispute how he 166 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: went about it and whether it was right or wrong, 167 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: but like, I think it's awesome that he disrupted this 168 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: vapid award show. I mean, the Video Music Awards. Come on, 169 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: this is not an important event. It should be disrupted 170 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: by drunken hip hop stars. I mean, that is I think, 171 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: just the beautiful thing. When I first heard the news, 172 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: like the night of I just remembering, like you know, 173 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,479 Speaker 1: it's this isn't the Grammys, even, this isn't the Oscars, 174 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: this is the MTV Video Music Awards, Like you said, 175 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, this isn't this what the same awards that 176 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: were like fart Man descended down from the ceiling in 177 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: the past, like it's it's made to be disrupted. I mean, 178 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: obviously he was being mean and loudish and and boorish 179 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: and all those things, but you're right, it wasn't. It 180 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: wasn't something that was beyond uh, you know, beyond this 181 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: kind of thing, this kind of behavior. But like you know, 182 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: like when you hear the stories about what was going 183 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: on backstage. Apparently, you know, bad scene, bad scene. Taylor 184 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: Swift is crying. I guess Beyonce was crying. Taylor Swift 185 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: mom is like yelling at Kanye. A little bit later 186 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: on the show, like I think, Beyonce wins an award 187 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: and she like brings Taylor Swift up with her so 188 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: she could have a moment, which isn't that what happened 189 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: she shout her out at she brought her up. I 190 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: mean that should have been you know, that was sort 191 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: of the nice ending there. Meanwhile, they kicked Kanye out 192 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: of the theater. I believe that he kept booted out. 193 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: I think what makes us resonate so much, you know, 194 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: along with what I said before about this being the 195 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: rare instant of something actually interesting happening at an award show, 196 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: is that I think instantly people saw this as a 197 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: metaphor for larger issues. And it seems like in the moment, 198 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: people looked at it as an instance of you have 199 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: a successful young woman who gets her moment in the spotlight, 200 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: and here comes like a bullying man to push her 201 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: out of the way and to upstage her. And I 202 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: think a lot of people looked at that as like, well, 203 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: this is like sexism in the music industry. You know, 204 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: this is like women being cast aside, even a woman 205 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: as accomplished already at that age as Taylor Swift. I 206 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: think what we'll see later is another perspective, which is 207 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: about racism and about racism and awards shows and about 208 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: how white artists are almost always praised and awarded above 209 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: black artists. And um, I feel like that maybe came 210 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: out later definitely so white stuff. I think there has 211 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: definitely been a reappraise of what why Kanye did what 212 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: he did. It almost seemed to be a precursor to that. Yeah, 213 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and we'll get into this. I mean to me, 214 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: like the richness of this rivalry is that it's a 215 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: mix of like pop star mcglomania I think on both 216 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: sides to a degree more on Kanye side though, and 217 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: also like genuine grievance with the systems that exist in 218 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: the music industry. So we'll get to that in a 219 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: little bit. But like the folloff from this, it was 220 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: really incredible. I mean, I think people forget, like because 221 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: Kanye has been through so many controversies since this, but 222 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: I feel like this was maybe the closest that he 223 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: came to actually getting buried by a controversy. What didn't 224 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: you say? I mean, it's nuts. I mean it completely 225 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: eclipsed the the two thousand five Hurricane Katrina telecast when 226 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: he said George Bush doesn't care about black people on air. Uh, 227 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: And this surpassed that almost immediately because he said it 228 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: raised these issues of racism and sexism. Even Barack Obama 229 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: weighed in. I guess it was supposed to be an 230 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: off the record comment, but he but I think it 231 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: leaked to TMZ or something, and he he's heard on 232 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: tape calling Kanye a jackass. And then future President Donald 233 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: Trump called for a boycott of Kanye, which means that 234 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: these two presidents, who agree on nothing, they agree that 235 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: Kanye West was being a dick in this moment, which 236 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: I mean, Kanye brought the country together in a weird way. Yeah, 237 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: he was a unifier. Like the last time that we 238 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: were unified there it was against him. I mean, even 239 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter, you know who negotiated that the camp, David 240 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: Accord said that that Kanye's actions were completely uncalled for. 241 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: So just just an incredible host of celebrities come out 242 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: on social media in Taylor's defense. I guess Janet Jackson 243 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: Center flowers like it really it was this big thing. 244 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: Kanye knows he's screwed up. He immediately goes into damage control. 245 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: He posted two statements on his blog apologizing. He said, 246 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: that was Taylor's moment and I had no right in 247 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: any way to take it from her. Uh. He was 248 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: pre booked to appear on The Tonight Show with Jay 249 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: Know the day after the incident, and so he appears. 250 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: He's very soberly dressed in black, and he discusses how 251 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: it was. You know, it's a difficult day. He said, 252 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm just dealing with the fact that I hurt someone 253 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: or took anything away from a talented artist or from anyone, 254 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: because I only wanted to help people. I immediately knew 255 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: in that situation, and it was wrong. It's someone's emotions 256 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: that I stepped on. It was rude, period, And I 257 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: guess He actually starts tearing up, and Jay starts asking 258 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: him what his mom would have thought of the incident, 259 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: which is, yeah, yeah, Jay, you try to be Barbara Walters. 260 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: Jay Lennol, come on, like, who do you think you are? 261 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, and again I mean Kanye's reaction. I 262 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: think it's also really unique because can you imagine Kanye 263 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: tearfully apologizing over anything that he says now, I mean, 264 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,599 Speaker 1: like that seems like so incredible. Yeah, Like he was 265 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: gonna have a co headlighting tour with with Lady Gaga called, 266 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: ironically enough, the Fame Kills Tour, uh, and that was 267 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: canceled because of this, Like this derailed an entire like 268 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: big budget tour. I would have loved have seen that, 269 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: And it's just crazy and uh, well, what's interesting about 270 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: this is that out of this terrible controversy ends up 271 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: coming what is I think still the most celebrated Kanye 272 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: West record, which is My Beautiful, Dark, Twisted Fantasy. And 273 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: there was a narrative about that record that Kanye started 274 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: himself where he basically said, like I I felt like 275 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: I had to make a masterpiece, like for people not 276 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: to hate me anymore, Like that was the motivation. And 277 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: I think again that goes to that speaks to the 278 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: point about how close Kanye West came to like losing 279 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: everything in a way. As melodramatic as that sounds, it 280 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: really seems like in his own mind even like those 281 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: were the stakes. And it's like, if I'm going to 282 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: make people forget me going on stage and embarrassing Taylor Swift, 283 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: then I have to go to Hawaii. I have to 284 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: spend millions of dollars. I have to fly in like 285 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: a battery of co stars, including you know, everyone from 286 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: like you have like m i A there, you have 287 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: Fergie there, you have Nicki Minaj famously, you have Bunny 288 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: there there uh. And it actually works, like he makes 289 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: this record and everyone loves it, and that is what 290 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: ends up turning his career around everything. You just had 291 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: such a fascinating insight into Kanye psychology for this, Like, 292 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, 293 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: relatively minor transgression, I need to exile myself to the 294 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: other end of the world, spend three million dollars. I 295 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: guess it was one of the most expensive albums ever 296 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: made up to that point. Yeah, it's definitely seems like 297 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: an overreaction to the overreaction of everybody coming out for 298 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I disagree. I actually think that Kanye had 299 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the right strategy. I mean again, o' Barack Obama called 300 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: him a jackass, you know what I mean, Like you know, 301 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: you have entertainment reporters apparently calling up X residents, you know, 302 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: one by one down the list, being like, what do 303 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: you think about this, so that they could shake their 304 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: heads and you know and send out like, you know, 305 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: disapproving statements about Kanye. It really was one of those 306 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: things where, uh, people felt like they had to defend 307 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift against this guy. And again, you know, there 308 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: might be an element that we could talk about with that, 309 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: like with the race issue, that like people felt that 310 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: this black artist was upstaging the pretty white blonde woman 311 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: and so now we have to totally cast you know, 312 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: castigate this person over again. I agree with you. I 313 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: think it's a minor stupid incident. I think Kanye should 314 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: have been made fun of for this, But like just 315 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: the degree to which he was condemned in retrospect especially 316 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: just seems way over the top to me. So I 317 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: think he did have to make this sort of over 318 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: the top, gaudy, expensive classic record to you know, get 319 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: him back on track. And it worked for a while 320 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: because I mean, like you go to the next vm 321 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: as and like Kanye and and Taylor are like, you know, 322 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: sort of making up at that point. Yeah, I mean, 323 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: I I took it a sort of passive aggression on 324 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: both parts. They each Kanye and Taylor each had a 325 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: song to premiere at the vm AW it it's sort 326 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: of very obviously framed as like a second show down, 327 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: and uh and and Taylor goes first. She has a 328 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: song called Innocent, which is yeah, she's laying it on 329 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: thick at this point. It's like, look, I like Taylor 330 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: Swift a lot, but you know, like I said, I 331 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: think there's a Niclomania issue on both sides here, Like 332 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: she was playing this up to not her fault initially 333 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: that she was upstaged, but I don't know that seems 334 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: like it's laying it on a little bit thick. I mean. 335 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: The performance opens with a clip from Kanye in erupting 336 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: her the prior year, so there's no ambiguity here at all. 337 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: And she said that the song was meant to be 338 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: an open letter to someone someone that I meant to 339 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: tell them in person. Uh. She references New September's The 340 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: Word show took place in September. She has a line 341 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: thirty two and still growing up. Kanye was thirty two 342 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: during the vm A. It's all right, just wait and 343 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: see your string of lights is still bright to me. 344 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: Who you are is not where you've been. You're still 345 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: an innocent. It's like it's like an olive branch with 346 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: poison ivy in it. It's such like a country thing 347 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: to do. It's like a touch of pity in the 348 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: forgiveness there. It's just like twisting the knife. Well, and 349 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: like I will say, like, you know, Taylor Swift really 350 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: good songwriter. I like how she turns the meaning of 351 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: the word innocent in the lyric where you look at 352 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: the title and you're thinking, oh, she's saying her she's 353 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: referring to herself that I'm innocent, but she turns the 354 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: word innocent into an insult. Kanye saying that he's basically 355 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: like a simpleton at the end, which is like pretty 356 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: that's like, you know, hats off to Tailor. That's a 357 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: pretty clever I think songwriting gambit right there. But I 358 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: think it's fair to say that, like if this was 359 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: a rematch and like they were fighting with songs that 360 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: Kanye one, because he ended the show with Runaway, incredible, 361 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: incredible song, and this is a song that's also self referential, 362 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: but he's talking about himself, and of course the famous 363 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: chorus about you know, let's give a toast to the 364 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: douche bags, give a toast of the assholes. I mean, 365 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: I think he's talking about himself. He could be also 366 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: doing the same thing that Taylor was doing, where you 367 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: think he's talking about himself, but he's actually talking about 368 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: the other person. I don't think he's calling Taylor Swift 369 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: an asshole, though. I think he's probably talking about himself 370 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: in this song. But it's one of those kind of 371 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: typical great Kanye things that he was able to do 372 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: at this time where he could make fun of himself 373 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: while also self aggrandizing at the same time, you know, 374 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: because that is such a grandiose song, and uh, it's 375 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: just a brilliant thing, like where it's like, oh, yeah, 376 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 1: he's making fun of himself, but he's also kind of 377 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: justifying his awfulness at the same time with like ballerinas 378 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: around him. I seem to remember, like, yeah, exactly, and 379 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: you know again, I feel like I'm showing my cards 380 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: here early on where my biases lie. I wrote about 381 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: this ravelry in my book Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me. 382 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: And the thing I wrote about in that book was 383 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: talking about the idea of like insiders versus outsiders, and 384 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: like how when we look at awards shows, often it's 385 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: about a battle between an artist that has looked at 386 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: as like sort of a paragon of an industry and 387 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: another thing that is like sort of the upstart and 388 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: the underdog. And usually the the industry insider wins and 389 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: the and the upstart doesn't. But they went at the 390 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: award show, but in the in the court of public 391 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: opinion off and it's the upstart that people love. And 392 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: just to give an obvious example of this, if we 393 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: were talking about movies like Force Gump winning the Best 394 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: Picture Academy Award in would be an example of like 395 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: an inside type thing, and help fiction losing would be 396 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: like the outside you know, you know what I mean. 397 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: Like there's always these things of like, well, this thing one, 398 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: but this other thing deserved to win. And I think 399 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: at the Grammys, for instance, that's become the dominant narrative 400 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: every year. You know, it's like Adele wins and people 401 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: are mad that Beyonce didn't win, or you know, Mumford 402 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: and Sons wins and not Kendrick Lamar. You know, it 403 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: seems like there's a controversy like that, uh, every year. 404 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: And I think when we look back at the v 405 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 1: m as in two thousand nine, I think two things 406 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: can be true at the same time. When you look 407 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: at Kanye West, there's no question that he's a narcissist, 408 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: in an egomaniac and maybe even a lunatic, you know, 409 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: like that is all true. But I think what's also 410 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: true is that you look at someone like him. You know, 411 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: he was nominated for Album of the Year at the 412 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: Grammys his first three albums, never one Taylor Swift one two. 413 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: Album of the Year means I think before she turned 414 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: what maybe years old. Um. And that's not to say 415 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift doesn't deserve those awards, but there's no 416 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: question that like award shows feel more comfortable giving someone 417 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift awards more than they feel comfortable giving 418 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: someone like Kanye West awards. And I feel like when 419 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: he storms the stage in that instance, you have to 420 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: consider that factor, you know, and I think that would 421 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: maybe be like the best justification for doing that. Not 422 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: to say that he wasn't rude or he didn't like 423 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: ruin the moment, but I think that aspect of it 424 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: is what is maybe the most interesting part of this 425 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: for me personally. That's subtext about like what we choose 426 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: to say is important in our culture, and like how 427 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: sometimes people rebel against that, And so I think that 428 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: would probably be the most favorable way to look at 429 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: what Kanye did. Yeah, and also the VMAs in particular, 430 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: I think he was really hurt by the fact that 431 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: I think it was in two thousand seven he was 432 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: lobbying to open the Awards show and they gave it 433 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: to to Britney Spears instead, who kind of famously that 434 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: was her her kind of redemption moment after all of 435 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: her her troubles earlier in the year, and and he 436 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: was sort of hurt by, like, no, I'm a a 437 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: vibrant artist who has all this new material, and she 438 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: at that point was kind of like on her way 439 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: to Vegas. Really it was just sort of like a 440 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: lipsticking song and dance kind of number. And Yeah, I 441 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: think that he thought that that was favoring tabloid celebrity, 442 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: not to mention the racial element over just his his 443 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: cutting edge art. And I think that he I mean, 444 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: he's lashed out of a number of Awards shows, but 445 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: I think the VS. In particular, were in his sights 446 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: for that reason. All right, man, we'll be right back 447 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: with more rivals. So around this time, you know, Kanye, 448 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: He's make My Beautiful, dark, Twisted Fantasy. I believe that 449 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: comes out in November of two thousand and ten. I 450 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: believe it was like towards the end of that year. 451 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: I remember, just because like that record dropped and basically 452 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: all the critics had to like tear up their other 453 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: year and because it was like that record just shot 454 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: to the top of every list. And I don't think 455 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: it's a coincidence that around this time, when that record 456 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: is about to drop, that's like when Kanye starts walking 457 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: back his apologies. Yeah he uh. He went on record 458 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: saying that it was inaccurate. It was a quote for 459 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: Fearless to have been named a One of the Year 460 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: the Grammy Awards that year, which for him is pretty tame. 461 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: And then he starts going on radio shows and and 462 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: kind of defending what he did at the vm as saying, 463 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: you know, painting himself as the victim. What's so arrogant 464 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: about that moment? The vmaz is saying, if anything, it's selfless. 465 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm walking around now with half an arm, trying to 466 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: sell albums and having to walk in rooms and being 467 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: afraid of my food getting spat in. And then you're 468 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: just talking about all the people saying, no, I lost 469 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: all respect for you. Nobody wants to sit and look 470 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: at the reality. Uh. And then he he kind of 471 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: now he gets gone and he's talking about how it 472 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: was just disrespectful for Taylor to win that awar over 473 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: over Beyonce. So he starts walking about his apology and 474 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: fairly major ways, i'd say, and then starts saying that 475 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: he did Taylor a favor, saying that you know, Swift 476 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: would now was on a hundred magazine covers after you 477 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: know what he did on stage. So it very quickly 478 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: turned from him apologizing to him saying, you know, I'll 479 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: take my thank you card whenever you feel like a Taylor. Yeah. 480 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: It's funny like how he was already laying the groundwork 481 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: for the song famous from Life of Pablo, which you know, well, 482 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: we'll get into that in a little bit. I mean 483 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: that ends up being a major, uh plot point in 484 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: this rivalry. You know, do you think that Kanye West 485 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: knew who Taylor Swift was in two thousand nine like this. 486 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: There's part of me that feels like he wasn't aware 487 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: of her present since yet, maybe because she was still 488 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: just coming out of country radio, because he seems to 489 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: think that like she wasn't like popular or successful before 490 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: this incident at the VMAs, which obviously isn't true. I mean, 491 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: she was already a big star. But I just wonder if, 492 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: like Taylor, if he was just like, who's this, who's 493 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: this blonde lady up stage? You know, maybe he didn't 494 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: even know who she was at that point. Taylor asked 495 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: him that directly on the famous phone call that will 496 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: get too later when Kanye calls Taylor to ask about 497 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: the famous lyrics, and she said, did you really not? 498 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: You really think you made me famous? Did you really 499 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: not know who I was? I sold seven million albums 500 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: that year? You know. But then again, you also get 501 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: the idea when you when you watch the two nine 502 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: vm as that Taylor is very much the new kid there. 503 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: This is like her first time in in this realm. 504 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: I mean all the Nashville Awards shows, like the c 505 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: m as and stuff. She's like an old hand there. 506 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: But you do get the idea that that she's the 507 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: new kid in school at these awards shows, so it's possible. 508 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: But then also it's a question of what did Kanye 509 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: actually know and what did he tell himself after the 510 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: fact that he now believed right. Yeah, I mean, Kanye 511 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: is his own unreliable narrator, you know, like he has 512 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: the unreliable narrator voice in his head. He probably has 513 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: a you know, a couple of different narrators going on simultaneously, 514 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: you know. Just talking about all these Kanye quotes, it 515 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: was it's just making me think wistfully back to that 516 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: time in the late odds in early two thousand tens, 517 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: when not only were new Kanye West album's events, because 518 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: they really were like events, like My Beautiful, Dark Wisted 519 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: Fantasy was an event, you know, Jesus was an event, 520 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: but his interviews were also events. Like he would do 521 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: an interview and like they would hit social media and 522 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: everyone would be talking about them, everyone would be sharing quotes, 523 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: like quotes would become memes within like an hour of 524 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: an interview dropping from from Kanye. And one of my 525 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: favorite Kanye West interviews was with The New York Times 526 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: in where he was promoting Jesus at the time, and 527 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: that was an interview where he again talked about the 528 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: vm A incident with with Taylor Swift and uh, this 529 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: is a great quote. He said, it only led me 530 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: to complete awesomeness at all times. It only led me 531 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: to awesome truth and awesomeness, beauty truth, awesomeness. That's all 532 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: it is. And which again amazing quote. And he also 533 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: says in that interview, like, the thing that stands out 534 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: to me is that, like he called My Beautiful, Dark 535 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: Twisted Fantasy a backhanded apology, and in a way he 536 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of disavowed that album to degree. I think again 537 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: based on the narrative that this was his, you know, 538 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: way to make amends with the public. I think by 539 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: the time of Viesus he came to resent that idea 540 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: that he even had to make amends, and it affected 541 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: how he talked about that record in a very interesting way. 542 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: I think my favorite part of his apology walked back 543 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: towards when he said that if I wasn't Wronk, I 544 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: would have been on stage at the VMA's longer. Uh God, 545 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: see again, it was just straight up gold. Back then, 546 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: I missed that era of Kanye interviews because now I 547 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: feel like when I see a new Kanye interview, like 548 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: I want to hide under my desk, like like I 549 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: don't want to read this. I'm afraid of what he's 550 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: gonna say. It just fills me with dread when it 551 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: used to fill me with joy. So I feel some 552 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: wistfulness but revisiting some of these interviews. But one of 553 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: his is truly great public speeches was that the two 554 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen VMAs where he was ordered the Video Vanguard 555 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: Award and it was presented by none other than Taylor Swift, 556 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: which is, you know, an incredible act of of of 557 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: booking on MTVS part. And you've kind of seen the 558 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: signs earlier in the year. They were photographed at the 559 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: at the Grammys earlier in February looking you know, smiley, 560 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: reasonably friendly. Um. This was the same event where Beyonce 561 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: lost Album of the Year to Beck's Morning Phase and 562 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: Kanye pretended to jump out of his seat and crash 563 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: the stage again. And I have to say I was 564 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: actually in the audience at the Grammys this year. The 565 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: air just sucked out of the room. Everybody just thought, 566 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: oh no, oh no, not again, not in the Grammys, 567 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: Like no, God, Like that's fine for basic cable but 568 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: plea and then he just kind of does the just 569 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: kidding shrug and walks back to the crowd. See, of 570 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: course the Grammys would be afraid of being interesting, you know. 571 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: Of course they'd be like, oh man, someone might actually 572 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: give a shit about what's happening on this show, Like 573 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: oh no, let's let's give the award to like a 574 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: really boringly period Beck album. Yeah, this is this is 575 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: more of our comfort zone. So so that the groundwork 576 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: was set earlier in the year for some kind of 577 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: very public day tout between between Taylor and Kanye, and 578 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: it goes down, of course at the VMAs. Yeah, and 579 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: like it starts off with um, like Taylor Swift is 580 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: giving the speech for you know, like introducing Kanye. I mean, 581 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: are you inducted into the video vanguard? I don't know 582 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: the term analogy bestowed. And so anyway, she's you know, 583 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: saying that it's her come to Ye's this moment, you know, 584 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: which is a very cute line. And uh, you know again, 585 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: I think at this time there was this idea that like, Okay, 586 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: this was like a crazy thing that happened to us, 587 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, five six years ago. But we've gotten over it. 588 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: Now we're friends, and uh, you know, Taylor says in 589 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: the speech that, like, uh, well, I'm sorry this. You know, 590 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: Like Taylor gave an interview to Vanity Fair which she said, 591 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I wasn't ready to be 592 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: friends with him until I felt he had some sort 593 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: of respect for me, And he wasn't ready to be 594 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: friends with me until he had some sort of respect 595 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: for me. So it was the same issue and we 596 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: both reached the same place at the same time. So 597 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: she's given this interview with Andy Fair which she says that, 598 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: and I mean her speech is really nice. I mean 599 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: she talks about how, like the first album she ever 600 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: bought was The College Dropout, which is Kanye's two thousand 601 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: four debut, and she says, I've been a fan of 602 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: his for as long as I can remember, because Kanye 603 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: defines what it means to be a creative force in music, fashion, 604 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: and well life. Can I of say this is just 605 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: like a quick tangent. I hate it when people talk 606 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: about fashion being an achievement. That's totally something for me. 607 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: Like I one of my theories about Kanye careers that 608 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: he began to lose his way even before the MAGA stuff. 609 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: It's when he started caring about being a fashion designer. 610 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: It's like after yess, he kind of started losing interest 611 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: in music and he started caring about fashion. It's like, dude, 612 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: just make great records. Who cares about fashion? Fashion is stupid. 613 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: But that's just my bias there, I guess. So anyway, 614 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: she gives up. She gives us great speech, and then 615 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: Kanye comes out, and then Kanye gives like a bonker's 616 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: speech himself. Oh yeah, Taylor goes, this is all those 617 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: nice things, and then Kanye gets up there and gives 618 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: us eleven minutes speech. He criticizes MTV for going to 619 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: bat for some artists while like at the expense of others, 620 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: basically pitting artists against each other, and then accuses them 621 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 1: a booking Taylor as a presenter just to get more ratings, 622 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: despite the fact that Taylor has publicly claimed that Kanye 623 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: asked her to do it personally and listed all these 624 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: heartfelt reasons why he thought it would be great for 625 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: her to give him this award. So she's in the 626 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: audience right now, I guess, standing right next to Kim Kardashian, 627 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: and she's just seething that she went up there and 628 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: made nice and now publicly he's basically talking about her, 629 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: and it just sent her right back to square one. 630 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: But she was just thinking, you know what, I don't 631 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: want this guy to be this like my my personal 632 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: like specter of hate anymore. I'm just gonna let this go. 633 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: It's fine. I don't want to be on bad terms. 634 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: And Kanye again kind of knew he screwed up. I 635 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: guess the next day he sent her this like massive 636 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: cube of flowers, which is a very Kanye apology. So yeah, 637 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: and and you know, and I there's no doubt in 638 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: my mind that Kanye was just speaking off the cuff 639 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: at that point and said a lot of dumb things 640 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: like he is, you know, apt to do. And although 641 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: again it seems like at that point anyway, he was 642 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: at least willing to acknowledge, like when he said something 643 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: dumb and made some overture to apologize to her afterward. 644 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's you know, later on, Taylor Swift 645 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: talked about how angry she was in that moment, but 646 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: she didn't make that known at the time. And there 647 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: was this period, you know, like we were saying before, 648 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: where it seemed like this was over, like they weren't 649 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: feuding anymore, and this was just something that happened in 650 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: two thousand nine, and wasn't that crazy back then? And 651 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: I remember, and I think I talked about this, like 652 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: one of our first episodes was on Taylor Swift versus 653 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: Katie Perry. And by the way, shout out to Taylor Swift, 654 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: the first two time rivals subject. I'm sure you could 655 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: be thrilled. But you know, I remember back then, like 656 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: I was writing my book. It was my first book, 657 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: and I showed it to a friend of mine and 658 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: he said, you know, you should have written about Taylor 659 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: Swift and Katie Perry because when I wrote that book 660 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: was like two fifteen. When I wrote it, that was 661 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: the hotter Taylor Swift ravelry. You know, there was more, 662 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: and it seemed like Kanye was a thing of the past. 663 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: But then like right before my book came out, this 664 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: Ravelry blew up again. Stop the presses, literally, the presses 665 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: were stopped because Kanye puts out the Life of Pablo 666 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: in Early And as we were talking about earlier, there's 667 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: a song on that record called Famous and he says 668 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: famously that he says, I made that bitch famous. Is 669 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: the is the quote? So not only is he you know, 670 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: referring to her with a misogynistic term, but he is 671 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: I think this is the part that insulted her more. 672 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure the idea that she wasn't already successful on 673 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: her own, that she had to rely on this essentially 674 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: tabloid story to make her career, which is demonstrably untrue, 675 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: Like there's no evidence that that was that was the case, 676 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: and there's plenty of evidence that Taylor Swift was already 677 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: well on her way to being famous. And then there 678 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: was also the line where he says, I feel like 679 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: me and Taylor Swift still might have sex. Why because 680 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: he made her famous? So, um, Taylor Swift was not 681 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: crazy about this song, as you might imagine. And this 682 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: is also another controversial part of this because I think 683 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: she claimed early on that Kanye didn't ask for permission 684 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: for this, you know, to sing about her in this song, 685 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: and that ends up being like another like the next 686 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: big point of contention, right that like, not only did 687 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, like the ideas that Kanye insulted her, but 688 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: then Taylor was saying that, well, you didn't even give 689 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: me a heads up about this, but like that wasn't 690 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: really true, right, And she both her team and then 691 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: Taylor at the Grammys that year, we she began I 692 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: think the first woman the win Album of the Year 693 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: twice kind of spoke about you know, and sub tweeted 694 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: Kanye about you people are gonna gonna try to to 695 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: take credit for your work. Don't let them. Just keep 696 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: on doing your thing is basically how you can paraphrase it. 697 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: So Kanye tries to defend himself on Twitter. He He 698 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: eventually deleted the tweets, but he said I did not 699 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: diss Taylor Swift and I have never dissed her, and 700 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: he reiterates that that he he said he Paul Taylor 701 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: and ran the line buyer and she thought it was 702 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: funny and gave her blessing. Uh. And he said, you know, besides, 703 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 1: the term bitch is supposed to be an endearing term 704 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: was his phrase in hip hop uh. And he also 705 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: claimed that the whole thing was Taylor's idea in the 706 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: first place. He said, it's actually something Taylor came up with. 707 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: She was having dinner with one of our friends whose 708 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: name I will keep out of this, and she told him, 709 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: I can't be mad at Kanye because he made me famous. 710 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: I seriously, seriously, seriously doubt she ever said that, even 711 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: in a joking manner. That that is extremely hard to believe. Yeah, yeah, 712 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift doesn't strike me as someone who would uh 713 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: be self deprecating in that way, especially with maybe someone 714 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 1: that she wasn't really close with. I imagine that Taylor Swift, 715 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: like all pops ours of her stature, probably has a 716 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: pretty healthy self regard, you know. So yeah, I I 717 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to imagine her saying that even 718 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: in jest, right, and so Taylor tries to do her 719 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: best to leave it alone. Kim Kardashian is giving an 720 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: interview to U g Q and she kind of goes 721 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: to bath for her husband said, you know, I'm sick 722 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: of Taylor throwing Kanye into the bus about stuff. And 723 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: she's been living off this for seven years at this point. Now. 724 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: He did call, like people in the industry, no, he called, 725 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: I'm sick of her playing the victim. I'm tired of this. 726 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: And then she releases on Snapchat the receipts basically video 727 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: she's filming Kanye talking on speaker to Taylor illegally recording 728 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: the call. I should say that in the state of 729 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: California that that is not legal. Uh, And so she 730 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: puts the video of Kanye running some lines from the 731 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: song by Taylor on on social media. Now this is 732 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: when it gets really sticky. Uh. Kanye can be heard 733 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: saying the line about you know, I think me and 734 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: Taylor might still have sex, and Taylor actually responds to 735 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: that in in a in a more positive way than 736 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: one might expect. There is nothing about the bitch part, 737 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: and so that becomes Taylor's sticking point is that, you know, 738 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: I did not give him permission to call me bitch 739 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: in his song. That is a a misogynistic, terrible term, 740 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: and I do not want to be referred to that, 741 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: especially by Kanye West, who you know we have a 742 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 1: tricky relationship with. So that's where we're at with that. Yeah, 743 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: I feel like Robert Mueller needed to be brought and 744 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: at some point to like parse this, because yeah, it 745 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: was getting very We're getting deep into the weeds, and like, 746 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get into this, but like this is 747 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: even the end of this like whole like parsing of 748 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: like you know, who knew what and when and all 749 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: this stuff. Also in the middle of this, I mean, 750 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 1: Kanye is continuing to pour gasoline on the fire when 751 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: he puts out the video for Famous, where it appears 752 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: that like he's like digitally reconstructed Taylor Swift to make 753 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: her look like she's naked in this video along with 754 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of other people in a big bed with 755 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: with Kanye West. And that's also something that Taylor Swift 756 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: was not happy to see. I think would be you know, 757 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: a fair assessment. She called it revenge porn, which I 758 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: don't think that's like the totally accurate way to use 759 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: the term revenge porn, because I don't think she was 760 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: like literally in bed with Kanye and serendipitious, you know, 761 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: and then like secretly videotaped and put on put online. 762 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: But there does seem to be a bit of a 763 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: trolling aspect of that music video, and it definitely worked 764 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: in pissing Taylor Swift even more oft than she already was. 765 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: It's wax figures of Taylor, Anna Wintour, Rihanna, Chris Brown, 766 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: Ray j amber Rose, Caitlyn Jenner, and Bill Cosby. Crew. 767 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: That's a Molly crew right there, man. I mean the 768 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: revenge point. I think you're right it that it's not 769 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: the most accurate use of the term, but I think 770 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: the malicious intent was definitely there, and I thought it 771 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: was pretty horrifying and disgusting things to do to anybody, 772 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: but especially somebody. I understand he was trying to be controversial, 773 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: and obviously having Bill Cosby and Chris Brown and Rihanna 774 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: and everybody there, I knew what he was trying to do, 775 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, that that seemed to be way, way, way, 776 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: way way over a line, and I'm actually sort of 777 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: surprised you didn't, Sue. We're gonna take a quick break 778 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: and get a word from our sponsor before we get 779 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: to more rivals. So we flashed forward to uh, the 780 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: next Taylor Swift record, which is Reputation, and I feel 781 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: like that record is influenced by a lot of things 782 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: that were happening in Taylor Swift's life. I always feel 783 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: like that record was in a way of reaction against 784 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: the sexual assault allegations that Taylor Swift made against that 785 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: this jockey I think he was in Colorado that groped 786 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: her and uh that ended up being settled in a lawsuit. 787 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: I think the Kanye stuff was also a factor in there. 788 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: But I mean, that's definitely like her Angry record. You know, 789 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 1: that's the record where she was really upending her persona 790 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: in a way. I think that was really interesting. I 791 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: mean that record is I think the lowest selling record 792 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: of her career or among the lowest selling, and it 793 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: definitely was received critically in a very sort of mixed fashion. 794 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: After she put out and that was, you know, universally 795 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: loved by both critics and and uh the audience and 796 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: at one, you know, the Album of the Year at 797 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: the Grammys. But yeah, there was like this bad girl aspect. 798 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: It's a reputation. I saw that the concert film that 799 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: she made that was posted on Netflix, and I just 800 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: think of like, she had that enormous snake on stage, 801 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: which funny enough, was called Karen and Karen. Karen didn't 802 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: have the significance then that does now. I mean, in 803 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: a way, maybe she was she was precition back then, 804 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, I'm reputation. It seemed like she 805 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: embraced this like villain persona. She was going to sort 806 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: of embody all the things that her critics were accusing 807 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: her of, because you know, I think like with the 808 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian stuff and all the Snapchat things and like, 809 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, showing the receipts. I feel like that was 810 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: part of a reckoning with Taylor Swift in the mid 811 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: two thousand's after she became so big, After were it 812 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: seemed like there was this recurring thing in the media 813 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: about painting her as like as a fake person or 814 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: as a two faced person. Right. The snake thing in 815 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 1: particular was because when Kim Kardashian posted those videos, all 816 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: of Kim's fans started the the hashtag Taylor Swift as 817 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: over party and would tweet these snakes at her. You know, 818 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: she's a lying snake. And so by having that giant, 819 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: sixty three ft tall snake set piece, she was just 820 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: leaning into that and embracing that, like, fine, you want 821 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 1: to call me a snake, you want to call me, 822 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, a snake in the grass villain? This fine? 823 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna own this. Yeah, And there 824 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: was that song this is why we Can't have nice Things, 825 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: which that song is also about how, you know, she's 826 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: basically been betrayed by people, you know, people stabbing her 827 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: in the back, and like how that has forced her 828 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,839 Speaker 1: to embrace the evil side, at least at that point 829 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: in their career, that like, Okay, if you think I'm 830 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: this terrible person, then I am going to embody that 831 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,399 Speaker 1: I I you know, I'll be everything that you think 832 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: I am, and I'll exaggerate it on this record. And 833 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: it seemed like that was really you know, the guiding 834 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: forced thematically of reputation. And again, like I like that record. 835 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: I appreciate that aspect of it because I do think 836 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. The thing that I think is really impressive 837 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: about her and also can maybe be a little like oppressive, 838 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: is just how controlling she is of her art in 839 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,760 Speaker 1: her persona. Like to me, she's like the smartest, canniest 840 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,359 Speaker 1: pop star like the last twenty years. Um. But there 841 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: is an element sometimes, I think, especially at that time, 842 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: where people felt like it was a little too uh 843 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: you know, it was a little bit too premeditated or yeah, 844 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: we're a little contrived at the time, um, which you know, 845 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: I I think that that isn't a totally fair thing 846 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: to say, because I think all pop stars are contrived. 847 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: I think that's like the name of the game. That's 848 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: like what people want, you know, that's what you have 849 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: to do in order to be successful. So to single 850 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: her out for that, I think would be unfair. But 851 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like that was her being 852 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: a rebel and I like that she was going through that. Yeah. 853 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: I always thought it was like her Sandy from Greece moment, 854 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: you know, just kind of like it gave her a 855 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: bull excuse to just like take shots that are too 856 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,760 Speaker 1: biggest celebrity nemesis to I mean, Kanye. And I always 857 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: think that the Katie Perry influence on that too can't 858 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: be overstated. At Also, I think that there was a 859 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: lot of what was going on with her and Katie 860 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: and there also also it's worth noting this maybe a coincidence, 861 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: maybe not. It's worth noting that the album came out 862 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: on the tenth anniversary of Kanye's mother's death. Uh yeah, 863 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: I remember that. People talking about that. I it's hard 864 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: for me to believe that that was intentional. I really 865 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: don't think she would that right now, You're right, I 866 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: think I think if she was, if she was trying 867 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: to troll Kanye, there's other anniversaries that she could have done. 868 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: I do think that, like, was this with reputation. I 869 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: think this was This was with Lover where she put 870 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: all of her albums on Spotify at the same time 871 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 1: off like Katy Perry, there was for no reason. It 872 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: was just the thank fans. When Katy Perry was about 873 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: to release Witness, she put all of her music back 874 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: on Spotify like the day of, I think, or maybe 875 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,800 Speaker 1: the day before. Yeah, that seems deliberate. It seems pretty 876 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: plainly up stage here. But yeah, I mean what's fascinating 877 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: to me about Reputation is that I think at the 878 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: time people looked at it as this erratic record that 879 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: was maybe the first you know, crack in the armor 880 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: for for Taylor. You know, she had all these records 881 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: that were successful, she was very well regarded, She's winning 882 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: all these awards, and then she finally has her first 883 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 1: big kind of public relations snaff who around this time. 884 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: But if you look at the arc of her career, 885 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,399 Speaker 1: I feel like, if you look at Reputation in light 886 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: of Lover, the next record, it's kind of perfect because 887 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: like Lover is then positioned as like the comeback to 888 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: the light record, you know what I mean, it ends 889 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 1: up kind of you know, this record Reputation, which looks 890 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: like a detour it ends up kind of looking like 891 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: a perfect painting in a way, like that she did 892 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,440 Speaker 1: it on purpose. Oh yeah, I always thought of Lover 893 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: as being like almost like her double Fantasy record, Like 894 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 1: that's her her in love album. Uh. She Taylor laid 895 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: off Kanye for a while. The fact that he was 896 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: hospitalized in the midst of his same Pablo tour probably 897 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 1: you know, made him a subject that you really didn't 898 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: want to take too many public shots at. But but 899 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: she was in love with this act Joe olwen Um 900 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: And uh, what do you think of Lover? I mean, 901 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: it's as bitter as reputation is. Lover is just the inverse. 902 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: It's like gooey and at points it's almost like too 903 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: sweet for me. I don't know what. Yeah, I mean, 904 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: I like I said, like, I'm a reputation defender and 905 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,439 Speaker 1: I am inclined to go to that record more than Lover. 906 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: And again maybe that's just my own sort of point 907 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: of view, Like I was talking earlier about the sort 908 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: of insider outsider dynamic and reputation in a weird way 909 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: is like her outsider record. You know, it's like the 910 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,759 Speaker 1: biggest start in the world attempting to paint herself as 911 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,720 Speaker 1: like this rebellious upstart, which in a way wasn't totally 912 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: off base at that time, because you know, I alluded 913 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: to this earlier. I mean, Taylor Swift was going through 914 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: like a couple of years of like terrible press, like 915 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 1: we're I think people unfairly we're given her a hard 916 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: time because she wasn't politically active during the two thousand 917 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: and sixteen election, Like there was this whole thing about 918 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 1: how she didn't endorse Hillary Clinton, or she didn't really 919 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: take any public stances, and it seemed like there was 920 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 1: an element in the media almost blaming her for like 921 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: the results of the election for that, which and you know, 922 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift has since become more politically outspoken, which is 923 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: her prerogative, and that's great for her. But I also 924 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: felt like, well, if she didn't want to speak, that 925 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: was her prerogative too, you know. So anyway, she was 926 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: really taking it on the chin um at that point. 927 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it justified a record like reputation, 928 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: whereas Lover to Me, you know, in spite of its 929 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: obvious strengths, it felt more maybe that was like her 930 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy in a way, it was 931 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: like her like making a record to bring people back 932 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: into the fold um, which to me isn't as interesting, 933 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: but I think it definitely worked. Incredible pop songs on 934 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean, paper Rings, I think is one of the 935 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: best pop songs she's made it. I wasn't thing that 936 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 1: that It opens with I forgot that you existed, which 937 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: I always felt was directed at Kanye. How many days 938 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: did I spend thinking about how you did me wrong? Wrong, wrong, 939 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,520 Speaker 1: lived in the shade you were throwing into all my 940 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: sunshine was gone, gone, gone, But then I forgot that 941 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:22,320 Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, it's funny because I felt like 942 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: again by this time that I didn't think that they 943 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,240 Speaker 1: were that Taylor and Kanye were friends, but it seemed 944 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: like it had died out. It seemed like, okay, like 945 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: what else are they going to do with this? And 946 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: then it comes back again in early where you know 947 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: the world is starting to really having to deal with 948 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: the coronavirus pandemic. You know, we're all in this like 949 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: very kind of frightened frame of mind. And this is 950 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,280 Speaker 1: the point like where Kim Kardashian only those Taylor Swift 951 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: that brought it back right. I think the the full 952 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: version of the of the famous call leak and I 953 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: don't know who's presumably somebody that's anti Kanye, because the 954 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: sticking point was, oh, we absolutely told her that we 955 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: were going to say all the lines, and Taylor said, no, 956 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: I never heard anything about I made that bitch famous. 957 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: And this call seems to really validate Taylor's point. The 958 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,680 Speaker 1: we might have sex part is in there. She's as 959 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: fine with it as she can be, and then he says, 960 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,239 Speaker 1: Kanye kind of senses, okay, she's warming of this. Maybe 961 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna show her this other line. He mentions, you know, 962 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: I might have this this other line in there too. 963 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: What if later in the song I said I made 964 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: her famous? And you could tell Taylor gets kind of polder. 965 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,160 Speaker 1: She she's pretty obvious she's not in love with this line, 966 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,200 Speaker 1: and she says, it's just kind of like whatever, Like 967 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,239 Speaker 1: you honestly didn't know who I was before the v 968 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,880 Speaker 1: M as it doesn't matter that I sold seven million 969 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: of that album before you did what you did on stage. Uh, 970 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,000 Speaker 1: you didn't know who I was. But but fine, but fine, 971 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: But you know it's clearly just by the tone in 972 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,879 Speaker 1: her voice, it's not fine. But there is no mention 973 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: of the word bitch, and the sort of the more 974 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,800 Speaker 1: inflection and the more inflammatory way that he had the 975 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: line on the record. So in the way it's it 976 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,799 Speaker 1: kind of makes Taylor of the Victor and the four 977 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: year long famous saga. Well, and again, this is unfolding 978 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: against the backdrop of like thousands of people getting sick 979 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: from a new pandemic, about millions of jobs being lost, 980 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,160 Speaker 1: and we're talking about this, you know which, Again it 981 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: speaks to the megalomania of both of these people, because 982 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, as over the top as Kanye is at times, 983 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: the fact that like Taylor Swift would choose now to 984 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,239 Speaker 1: fixate on this stupid call, it just speaks to a 985 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,719 Speaker 1: blinkered point of view. I think that's endemic among celebrities, 986 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 1: although I do think too that and this speaks to 987 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier about how the context 988 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: keeps shifting with this ravelry, and I think that's what 989 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: keeps it relevant after all these years. I have to 990 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,279 Speaker 1: believe that an element of Taylor Swift choosing to bring 991 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: that up again is related to how Kanye West has 992 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,880 Speaker 1: changed over the last few years, and how we think 993 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,799 Speaker 1: about Kanye West has changed because he's become so associated 994 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:22,600 Speaker 1: now with like Mega and wearing the red hat and 995 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,360 Speaker 1: all the things that he has said about, uh, you know, 996 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 1: our president and the state of the country. And I 997 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,680 Speaker 1: feel like to some degree, Taylor Swifts on an opening 998 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: with with Kanye West because he's such a less sympathetic 999 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: character now than he was maybe at one time. In 1000 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,360 Speaker 1: a way, it's like we've come full circle, because I 1001 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: think at the beginning of this rivalry, Taylor Swift was 1002 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: the more sympathetic character in terms of public perception. I 1003 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: feel like around the mid ots a I'm sorry, the 1004 00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,480 Speaker 1: mid two thousand tens, that it shifted to Kanye, Like 1005 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,640 Speaker 1: when you know, Kim Kardashian has dropping all the snapchats 1006 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: and all the receipts. I think people were inclined to 1007 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: view Taylor Swift in a negative way. And now we've 1008 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: come back again where Taylor Swift has refashioned herself as 1009 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 1: this crusader of progressive causes and Kanye is this reactionary conservative, 1010 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: which you would not have predicted that ten years ago. 1011 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: Like that, it's so crazy, and it again it just 1012 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: makes me think that, like we might have to do 1013 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: another episode on these two because in a year they 1014 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: could be completely different even if no other incidents happened 1015 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,800 Speaker 1: the context with both of these people, could you know shift, 1016 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, do another one eight. I will say that 1017 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 1: in Taylor's defense, as much as I can defend the 1018 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,439 Speaker 1: whole phone call thing going on or on, it wasn't 1019 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,279 Speaker 1: necessarily her that leaked it, and she did when she 1020 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,239 Speaker 1: went on social media to sort of comment on this 1021 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,879 Speaker 1: extended version of the call, she did have all these 1022 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: links to donating into Corona relief and stuff like that too, 1023 00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 1: and she kind of basically said, you know, I really 1024 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,600 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be talking about this right now. This is 1025 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,279 Speaker 1: my thoughts on it, and oh, by the way, here 1026 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 1: donate over here because this is what really matters, right 1027 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,759 Speaker 1: But she's still like single, I mean, okay, if you 1028 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 1: say like I don't, I shouldn't be talking about this, 1029 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,280 Speaker 1: but I am talking about it, then you're talking about 1030 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 1: it and you're still signal boosting it, so you know, 1031 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,839 Speaker 1: but good on her for shoehorning some relief in there. 1032 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: So okay, this is the part of the episode where 1033 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,800 Speaker 1: we talk about the pro side, uh for each person, 1034 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 1: and um, you know, let's talk about Kanye West first. 1035 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:32,879 Speaker 1: In a way, I feel like he's the harder person 1036 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: to defend here, especially for going back to the two 1037 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: thousand nine inciting incident at the v M A s Um. 1038 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: Just generally speaking, Kanye West to me is the most 1039 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,000 Speaker 1: interesting pop star, hands down, of last twenty years. Like 1040 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 1: I said, I think there was a moment in time 1041 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: where his interviews were as important and essentials his albums, 1042 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: and his albums were huge as well. I mean they 1043 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: were events, um, and his run from say like the 1044 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: mid odds to like the mid two tents, to me, 1045 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,840 Speaker 1: in pop music, it doesn't get any better than that 1046 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: like that in terms of the creative quality and also 1047 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,560 Speaker 1: the relevance and and just how fascinating he was as 1048 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: a figure. Um, I think he's unrivaled. And I would 1049 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: say that if I were to defend the original uh, 1050 00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,919 Speaker 1: you know, barging in on Taylor Swift on stage, I'd 1051 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: go back to what I said earlier in this episode. 1052 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,279 Speaker 1: I think that if you are inclined to view this 1053 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: through the lens of race, then I think you can 1054 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,080 Speaker 1: look at Kanye as a sympathetic figure striking out against 1055 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: a system that frequently awards white people over black people. 1056 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:50,160 Speaker 1: And I think again, Like, even if Kanye is a 1057 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,400 Speaker 1: is a narcissist and an egotist and you know, and 1058 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,960 Speaker 1: just a crazy person, I think there is a level 1059 00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,800 Speaker 1: of satisfaction and seeing someone stand up and say, hey, no, 1060 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: the black artist should have won this, not the white artist. Uh. 1061 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 1: Not to defend necessarily barging in on people and ruining 1062 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 1: their moment, But I think again, if you're gonna make 1063 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,400 Speaker 1: the pro case, that is where it lays the idea 1064 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: that awards show should be disrupted by crazy pop stars 1065 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: because there's terrible Award shows are bad and they should 1066 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,840 Speaker 1: be interrupted. They should be protested against because they make 1067 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,439 Speaker 1: a lot of mistakes, there's a lot of inequities there, 1068 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: and also because they're boring and it's more exciting when 1069 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: you have Kanye West barging in on people. So that 1070 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: would be my pro case for Kanye. Oh, I agree. 1071 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,160 Speaker 1: I mean, he's just he's definitely one of the most 1072 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,680 Speaker 1: exciting artists of our time. His risks are bigger and 1073 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,000 Speaker 1: when they fail, like you know, remember you, they crash hard. 1074 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,360 Speaker 1: But when they succeed, the results are just some of 1075 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,360 Speaker 1: the most amazing, vibrant, imaginative music. Mean, my beautiful, dark 1076 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: Twist of Fantacy is one of my favorite albums of 1077 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: all time. I would argue that he helped shape the 1078 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: sound of hip hop for the odds really, or at 1079 00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,440 Speaker 1: least the late odds. I mean it awaits an heartbreak, 1080 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: I think, which which was the record he had to 1081 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,880 Speaker 1: come back from, But like that is I think the 1082 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 1: most influential record, maybe just for pop music in general, 1083 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: like looking ahead to the next decade. I mean, there's 1084 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: so many artists that took a lot from that record. 1085 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,760 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And you know, I mean we're talking about 1086 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,160 Speaker 1: his political points. I mean it's difficult as his political 1087 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 1: position is to sort of pin down. Now, you know, 1088 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 1: he was very outspoken about progressive beliefs at a time 1089 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: when artists weren't as expected to do that. I mean, now, 1090 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 1: with everybody having Twitter and Instagram, it sort of goes 1091 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: part and parcel with being a public figure, as you know, 1092 00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: who do you support, what what causes are you supporting? 1093 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: But at the time that was not expected. And he 1094 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,520 Speaker 1: went on a television special in two thousand five and 1095 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: and really spoke out about LGBT rights at a time 1096 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: when that I don't even think Hillary Clinton. That part 1097 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,440 Speaker 1: was point was pro gay rights. I mean, it was 1098 00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: definitely bringing attention to stuff that really wasn't mainstream. And 1099 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,400 Speaker 1: of course the the Hurricane country an incident or incident, 1100 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 1: but just the famous quote about George Bush doesn't not 1101 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,400 Speaker 1: carrying about black people. And he also spoke about how 1102 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,440 Speaker 1: media covered people of color in the wake of the tragedy. 1103 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: He said that, you know, it's kind of what they're 1104 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:16,000 Speaker 1: saying now with with the George Floyd Um protests. They said, 1105 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, when they show a black family, they're looting, 1106 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: and when you see a white family, it's they're looking 1107 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,040 Speaker 1: for food. And you know, he's not wrong. The way 1108 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,240 Speaker 1: that the media covered the aftermath of that tragedy was 1109 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,800 Speaker 1: was really skewed. Um. So no, I think that he 1110 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,960 Speaker 1: needs to be again. The way he expresses it sometimes, 1111 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: uh is maybe not the best way to put the 1112 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,800 Speaker 1: point across. But I give him credit for for stating 1113 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,479 Speaker 1: in at least now going over the pro Taylor Swift side. 1114 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,560 Speaker 1: I mean, look if for again going back to the 1115 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,840 Speaker 1: two thousand nine vm A s I mean, all she 1116 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,320 Speaker 1: did was win an award. You know, she's standing on stage, 1117 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,440 Speaker 1: she thinks this is cool. I'm getting accepted by the 1118 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,760 Speaker 1: people in MTV. This is not a world I've been 1119 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,600 Speaker 1: a part of before this really, and I'm now entering 1120 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,080 Speaker 1: a new strata of my career. This is wonderful. And 1121 01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: then Kanye Westbrook barges in and kind of ruins it 1122 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: in the moment. She didn't deserve that, she didn't do 1123 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 1: anything to ask for that. So it's pretty easy to 1124 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: defend her on those grounds, I'll say to that. You know, 1125 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,960 Speaker 1: while you can look at this incident through the lens 1126 01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,600 Speaker 1: of race, I think it's also equally legitimate to look 1127 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,920 Speaker 1: at it through the lens of you know, talking about sexism, 1128 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,920 Speaker 1: the idea that like this woman, Taylor Swift, a very 1129 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: accomplished young woman doing a lot of great things in 1130 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: her career already. I think she was nineteen when that 1131 01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,840 Speaker 1: whole thing went down. Um, she's on her way to 1132 01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 1: having one of the great careers in pop history. And 1133 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,640 Speaker 1: a man just comes up and you know, essentially pushes 1134 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:46,520 Speaker 1: her aside um and and then records a song you know, 1135 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,800 Speaker 1: several years later, you know, insulting her, insulting her career, 1136 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:56,240 Speaker 1: taking credit for her career, um, you know, and then 1137 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,520 Speaker 1: he puts out a music video like where she's naked 1138 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,680 Speaker 1: and he's like, you know, seeing that they're going to 1139 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,360 Speaker 1: have sex. I mean, he was very insulting toward her. 1140 01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,080 Speaker 1: And I think she had a right to be upset 1141 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,000 Speaker 1: about that, and I think her fans had a right 1142 01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 1: to be upset about that. Um And And again, I mean, look, 1143 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: it goes without saying with Taylor Swift that her career 1144 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,800 Speaker 1: is pretty much second to none in the last twenty years. 1145 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Um And I like how she reacted in recent years too, 1146 01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: some of the adversity that came her way, especially after 1147 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,640 Speaker 1: became such a such a huge hit. I'll say it again, 1148 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,640 Speaker 1: I think reputation is really underrated record. Um And I 1149 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: liked the villainous Taylor Swift, and I kind of hope 1150 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,240 Speaker 1: she goes back to that a little bit that or 1151 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 1: at least embraces more of that subversive darkness in her music. 1152 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,560 Speaker 1: I think that's something that could use a little bit 1153 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:54,040 Speaker 1: more of. Uh So, Yeah, I mean I think again, 1154 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: like she didn't deserve what happened her, but she was 1155 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,000 Speaker 1: able to turn lemons into lemonade, so to speak, in 1156 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: her career. I think, as you said, Taylor's positive influence 1157 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,360 Speaker 1: on young women just cannot be understated. She's strong, hard working, 1158 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:08,960 Speaker 1: supremely talented woman who's in charge of her life and 1159 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,760 Speaker 1: career to agree that to a degree that I can't 1160 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,200 Speaker 1: think of since maybe Madonna, you know. I mean, and 1161 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,960 Speaker 1: when she's wrong, if she's growthed by a djor or 1162 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: screwed over in a business deal by Scooter Braun or 1163 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,880 Speaker 1: slandered by Kanye West, she speaks up about it, and 1164 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,240 Speaker 1: I think that's great. You know, even if it makes 1165 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,480 Speaker 1: her unpopular, it doesn't normalize that kind of behavior well, 1166 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,240 Speaker 1: and it doesn't make her unpopular. I mean, there's no 1167 01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,400 Speaker 1: question that, like, Taylor Swift is extremely popular, and I 1168 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,920 Speaker 1: think that this is part of what you know, kind 1169 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,280 Speaker 1: of feeds into her persona. I mean, like, like we said, 1170 01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,400 Speaker 1: this is the second time we've talked about her on 1171 01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,440 Speaker 1: this show, and our show hasn't been around that long. 1172 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,320 Speaker 1: You know, Taylor Swift has a way of seeking out 1173 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,000 Speaker 1: conflict in a very interesting way, and it makes her 1174 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,360 Speaker 1: career I think more fascinating than it would be if 1175 01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,120 Speaker 1: she were just this sort of squeaky clean pop star. 1176 01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,200 Speaker 1: I think she has that facade to a degree, but 1177 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 1: her her the dark side of what she does, I 1178 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:08,800 Speaker 1: think gives her career richness that it wouldn't have otherwise. 1179 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,520 Speaker 1: And I'll say too, like when we look at these 1180 01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,000 Speaker 1: two together and like why they work together. To me, 1181 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: it's like you couldn't pick a better adversary for each side, 1182 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, with Taylor Swift again, like this man who's 1183 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of a loudmouth, kind of a bully, you know, 1184 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,919 Speaker 1: that's like a perfect foil for Taylor Swift to lash 1185 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,160 Speaker 1: out against. And then for Kanye West, you have this 1186 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, very successful head of the class type you know, who, 1187 01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,480 Speaker 1: like I said, is the ultimate industry insider, you know, 1188 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,920 Speaker 1: the industry paragon that he can react against as this 1189 01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:49,480 Speaker 1: guy who you know has been extremely successful, but he's 1190 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,760 Speaker 1: never been fully embraced by the mainstream music industry. Uh. 1191 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, for all of his accolades, he can still 1192 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,400 Speaker 1: be an outsider and react against someone like Taylor Swift. 1193 01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,800 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, again, you couldn't ask for 1194 01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,000 Speaker 1: better enemies for each for either person, and that's why 1195 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,280 Speaker 1: this is such a great ravelry, right, I mean, Kanye, 1196 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:07,800 Speaker 1: I don't think it's ever better than when he has 1197 01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 1: something to prove, some phoe to vanquish. He makes his 1198 01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,160 Speaker 1: best art like under duress, really, man, beautiful, dark twist 1199 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,960 Speaker 1: of families, that prime example. Uh. And in many ways, 1200 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,520 Speaker 1: Taylor is the same way. I mean, she got grief 1201 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,600 Speaker 1: earlier in her career for writing, you know, songs about 1202 01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,280 Speaker 1: heartbreak and kind of calling out ex boyfriends. I mean, 1203 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,320 Speaker 1: Dear John being probably the biggest example. But uh, you know, 1204 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 1: you can't argue with those songs. No, And again it's like, 1205 01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:35,800 Speaker 1: would you want these two to be friends? I mean, 1206 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 1: isn't it great that they keep bringing this up as 1207 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,400 Speaker 1: annoying as it was earlier this year to talk about 1208 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:43,600 Speaker 1: that phone call. We're still talking about that phone call. 1209 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:45,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, I guess it just speaks 1210 01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,160 Speaker 1: to how the public is obsessed with parsing through this 1211 01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,920 Speaker 1: because we can always find new angles, you know, and 1212 01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 1: and and other larger issues that this reminds us of. 1213 01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,400 Speaker 1: I think that's why we're always interested in this. And 1214 01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, Joe, and I just want to say that 1215 01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:07,320 Speaker 1: I did make you famous, uh and uh, but thank 1216 01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,040 Speaker 1: you for not calling me bitch. I appreciate that. Yeah, exactly, 1217 01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,000 Speaker 1: I respect. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say I made you, 1218 01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:14,640 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to call you the B word. 1219 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,000 Speaker 1: So you know, I think I think that's the mutual 1220 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,080 Speaker 1: respect that we have on the show. I hopefully people 1221 01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,800 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Um everyone. I think that's all for this 1222 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,360 Speaker 1: episode of Rivals, So thank you so much for listening, 1223 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,360 Speaker 1: and uh, we'll be back with more beefs and feuds 1224 01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 1: and all sorts of animosity next week. Rivals is a 1225 01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,640 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn 1226 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,680 Speaker 1: ty Toone and Noel Brown. Supervising producers are Taylor R. 1227 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: Cooin and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's run Talk and I'm 1228 01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:50,840 Speaker 1: Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe 1229 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:52,840 Speaker 1: and leave us a review. For more podcasts for My 1230 01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,280 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1231 01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,160 Speaker 1: or ever you listen to your favorite shows.