1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: You, guys, we have some excellent and exciting news for you. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works has an all new app featuring all 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: of the amazing content you have come to expect from us, 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: as well as all of our other podcasts, including Stuff 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: you Should Know, Stuff you missed in History Class, Stuff 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: to blow your mind. All of your favorite stuffs are 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: in one brand new How Stuff Works apps and you 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: can listen to all our episodes from way way back. 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: We've got more than six hundred for you to listen to. 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: But that's not all. You can't forget that. We have articles, quizzes, videos, 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: and it's all searchable and it's available for your Android 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: and iOS. You can just head over to the App 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: Store or to Google Play to get it today. Welcome 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom never told you from how stuff Works 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: dot Com. Welcome podcast and I'm Caroline, and listeners, you 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and I are both in Core a treat or Caroline 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,639 Speaker 1: conversation with music producer extraordinary Sylvia Massey, who is also 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: coming out with a new book That's Right. It was 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: a treat to talk to Sylvia. She's sort of a 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: legend in the industry. She's been known for not only 21 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: her producing but also her engineering and mixing. She's worked 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: with an incredible range of artists to everybody from Prince 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: and Johnny Cash, who will talk about during in the interview, 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: but also tool and system of a down So she 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: this is not a folk music producer by any stretch, 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: but she's received more than twenty five gold and platinum records, 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: including for her work with the Red Hot Chili Peppers 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: and even Tom Petty. So there's that incredible range of 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: artists and Caroline, how did you first learn about Sylvia Um? 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: I first heard about Sylvia through my boyfriend who is 31 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: also a record producer and engineer, and he recommended that 32 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: she would be an incredible person to talk to, not 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: just about the industry, because she certainly is an incredible 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: resource for people who are interested in the music industry 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: and being record producers, but also somebody who has a 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: really great take on gender and what that means for 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: that role. Well, I would imagine that Sylvia is one 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: of a select few female record producers and engineers. I 39 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: mean it's a pretty male dominated industry within the industry, right, yeah, 40 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: for sure. And I did ask her why she thought 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: that is why there are such a limited number of 42 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: women in the role behind the control board, and so 43 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: let's let Sylvia explain it for herself. And so, without 44 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: further ado, let's hear from Sylvia Masthey. Al Right, well, Sylvia, 45 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. And I was wondering if we 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: could get started just having you introduce yourself to our 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: listener and tell them a little bit about what you 48 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: do for a living. All Right, my name is Sylvia 49 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: Massey and I'm a record producer of doing it for 50 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: about thirty five years. Um. Uh and uh yeah, I'm 51 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: currently living in Ashland, Oregon, UM recently moved here from California. Okay, 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: so what what brought brought the move on? Oh? A 53 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: number of things. Uh. Well it was a divorce and 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: uh and uh greener pastors. Well, you know, our listeners 55 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: are always interested to hear about the avenues that people 56 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: took to get where they are. UM. So I wanted 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: to ask where your interest in music and especially in 58 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: tinkering with electronics came from and how you got your start. Okay, Well, 59 00:03:51,360 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: I started basically in college in Chico, California, UM, where 60 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: I was a DJ on the college radio station and 61 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: learned how to use the recording equipment there and uh, 62 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: What I found was that I really loved the music, 63 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 1: but I wasn't sure about the commerciality of of radio 64 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: UM and because it's it's really based around commercials and 65 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: the music is secondary for most commercial radio as it 66 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: was at that time. So I got into the music 67 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: side of it and UH. That eventually brought me to 68 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: UM uh San Francisco, where I took a job as 69 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: a starting position in a studio called Bear West, and 70 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: I wound up recording my own band in the late 71 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: night hours at Bear West and UM. With doing that, 72 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: a couple of people that heard the the recordings said, Hey, 73 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, I like what you did with that, Will 74 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: you record my band? So I kind of stepped into 75 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: the production role right away, where UM I could direct 76 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: the musicians UH to UM to get better performances UM 77 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: and direct the recording in a certain way UM uh. 78 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: So so that was how I started and it just 79 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: kind of went from there. I moved from San Francisco 80 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles when I had an opportunity at one 81 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: of the bands I had produced in San Francisco, UM 82 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: called the Sea Hags UH was was signed by a 83 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: big record label. It was Chrysalis Records, UH and and 84 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: when that happened, I thought, this is my big opportunity. 85 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to do a big major label record. But 86 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: as it turned out, they got the budget and went 87 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles and worked with a producer named Mike 88 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: Klink who had just finished the The Guns and Roses record, 89 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: and I couldn't compete with that, and I realized that 90 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't be in San Francisco and have a career 91 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: in recording the way I wanted it. So then I 92 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: moved to Los Angeles and I started there. But it 93 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: took a while to get going in Los Angeles. When 94 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: you first moved to a new place, you have to 95 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: uh get a foothold in the in the community there, 96 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: the the industry there, um. So it took a couple 97 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: of years before before I got the right doors open 98 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: to get a starting position in a in a good 99 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: studio there, and that was Larraby Sound um and that's 100 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: where I started working with Prince and that's where I 101 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: um connected with the other people that would lead me 102 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: to tool and um Rick Rubin and my other clients 103 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: that that really helped me along. Okay, that's that's fascinating. 104 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: Did did you along the way do you have any 105 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: mentors of note, anybody who's sort of I don't know, 106 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: showed you the ropes or or introduced you to new 107 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: equipment or new ways of doing things. Well, I have 108 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: to say Rick Rubin was a big influence on how 109 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: I record. I had been producing for a while before 110 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: I started working with Brick, but he has a certain 111 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: way of conducting a recording session which is fascinating and inspiring. Um. 112 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: I came from the side of recording where I'm the 113 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: handling the technical equipment. Uh and actually you know, changing 114 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: the equalization on the microphones and setting up and plugging 115 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: everything in and but regroupment doesn't do anything like that. 116 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: What he does is he takes the the band or 117 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: the musicians, and he decides what songs that those musicians 118 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: will play, and then he hires the people to to 119 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: record it. That would be me uh in some in 120 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: some instances, uh. And then he would uh decide where 121 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: the recording would take place. So he put all of us, 122 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: he put the songs, the band, the recording crew in 123 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: a studio somewhere and then he'd say, okay, go And 124 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: then he would check in on it every once in 125 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: a while to see how we were doing. And the 126 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: fascinating thing is his his choices of songs uh came 127 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: from the perspective of a true music fan. So UM, 128 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: I started doing that type of of uh A production 129 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: to where when I come and start with the band, 130 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: I asked them for um, for as many songs as 131 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: they can give me. Let's say we're we want to 132 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: record ten songs. Well, I like them to present sixties 133 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: songs to me, and then we're gonna pick the best 134 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: ten songs. That's basically how Rick works too. I think 135 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: he'll have an artist come up with three hundred songs 136 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: before he'll record fifteen songs. You know, other other specific 137 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: techniques that Rick taught me to. I just think that 138 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: he's a great one of the one of the great producers. Yeah, awesome. UM. 139 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: I'm also really interested in sort of the trajectory that 140 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: you took. So how does one specifically you go from 141 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: mixing and engineering to producing records and then specifically also 142 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: in your case, then becoming an author, writer and artist. 143 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: So what was that trajectory? Like, well, I think you know, 144 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: like I, like I described, I kind of stepped into 145 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: production um from the beginning, and it was kind of 146 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: a natural thing, because um, I love art and that 147 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: would be my first passion. Uh. But um, when when 148 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm working working with a musician on their music, it's 149 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: their music, it's not my art, it's their art, so 150 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: I can detach from it and I and it's easier 151 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: for me to not be emotionally involved in in there 152 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: in that art because it's their art and I'm helping 153 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: them realize it. Uh, my own art. It took maybe 154 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: into you know, forty years to realize how I could 155 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: do my own art. And that's really where I'm at 156 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: right now. Um. I love the illustration. I love painting, 157 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: but I have never really spent the time on on 158 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: honing that craft because it is very personal and um, 159 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: so I'm just learning about that now. And and actually 160 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,119 Speaker 1: the project I'm working on now is a book project 161 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: for how Leonard, which is a technical music book. Actually 162 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: it's about recording, but I get to illustrate it and 163 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: write it. And so this is a whole new thing 164 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 1: for me, and I'm really excited about it because, um, 165 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: I can really express my self without someone coming in 166 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: and saying, you know, well, we haven't gotten to the 167 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: editing stage yet, but I think that the illustrations are 168 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: going to fly maybe and uh, and it's a fun book. 169 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: It's I get to be goofy and I've had some 170 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: I have some great stories, and I've talked to other 171 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: producers and engineers who also have great recording stories that 172 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: I'll be sharing in the book. So it's a different 173 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: world now. Yeah. And so this is recording unhinged, right. 174 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: The book is called okay, And so so what's the 175 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: process like there are I know I read that you 176 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: were interviewing other people in the industry for it. So 177 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: was there anything that surprised you about this process or 178 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: or as you talk to your colleagues in the industry 179 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: as you were going along, Um, well, I am surprised 180 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: that there's so much of this type of recording going 181 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: on that you never hear about the type of things 182 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: that I'm talking about. In my personal experience, UM with 183 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: recording was that I, Uh, I've done some crazy things 184 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: and to get a performance. Uh. One time we took 185 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: um an old piano. This was on the tool record 186 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: that undertow record. We took an old piano and miked 187 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: it up in a studio and uh and got some 188 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: sledgehammers and shotguns and shot it, snatched it up and 189 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: recorded the whole thing, and then incorporated that into the record. 190 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: Another time, I think we dragged some some uh amplifiers 191 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: and guitars up onto a cliff overlooking the ocean, and 192 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: we set up some microphones and got to the guitars 193 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: to feedback and recorded them being tossed off the cliff. 194 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: You know. So there's these crazy stories, and I started 195 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: writing them all down, and then I started asking other people, 196 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: will tell me about your stories, and surprisingly they had 197 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: some incredible stories. Uh. Bob Ezren uh recorded Peter Gabriel 198 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: and uh to get him to uh really give a 199 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: great performance, he wound up duct taping Peter to the wall. 200 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: You know. Uh there's other stories where uh the producers 201 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: have the singers stand on ladders so that they are 202 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: so busy worrying about falling off the ladder they are 203 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: not thinking about their voice, you know, so suddenly they 204 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: give a much better performance that way. Um, there's all 205 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: kinds of fun little stories about that, and um, and 206 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm also describing the techniques with illustrations and photographs, so 207 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a fun process. And so now 208 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: my day is I get up, I come down to 209 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: the studio and in my office I've got a big 210 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: drafting table with the computer monitors, and I decide, let's 211 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: see today. Today my drawing will be, um, how to 212 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: shoot a piano? And I already know how it's gonna 213 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: be laid out and uh and probably hopefully by the 214 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: end of the day i'll have I have it illustrated. 215 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: But the yeah, I just finished it a very important 216 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: illustration called how do Mike a Chicken? I watched that 217 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: video on your website. Did you see it? Yeah? Okay, yeah, 218 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: Well this is from experience. I have Mike to chicken 219 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: and recorded chicken actually a couple different times. So I 220 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: thought I would illustrate the proper way of liking a 221 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: chicken from my experience because I am an expert at it. 222 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm having a great deal of fun with this. 223 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: And it's also touching a different side of might create 224 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: my creative self because I get to illustrate it for 225 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: the first time. That's amazing. Yeah, the chicken video with 226 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: something else I don't think. Yeah, I don't think I've 227 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: ever seen a chicken being recorded for for musical purposes. 228 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: But speaking of chickens and tool. You have worked with 229 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: a pretty broad range of artists, including, like you said, 230 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: Prince System of a Down, Tom Petty, also Johnny Cash, 231 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: or have there been any notoriously big personalities that you 232 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: worked with any times he might have been nervous or 233 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: just sort of felt Um, what's the word star struck 234 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: by anybody you've worked with? Anybody took you by surprise? Oh? Well, 235 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: I have plenty. You can imagine coming into a studio 236 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: with with that Johnny Cash and meeting him for the 237 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: first time, and he was it was a wonderful je 238 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: nental soul, very tall and imposing and wearing black of course. 239 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: And uh, those sessions were really special because it was 240 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: Johnny who you like immediately. And uh, and then Tom 241 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: Petty and the Heartbreaker just was his backup band, and 242 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: I'd worked with them before and they are great people. Um. 243 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: Then we had Lindsey Buckingham and Nick Fleetwood sit in 244 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: on some sessions, and Marty Stewart, who's a country hero, 245 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: and he came and sat in on sessions. And then 246 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: holy cow, we had Carl Perkins come in and we 247 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: recorded him, and then Johnny's wife, June Carter Cash, came 248 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: in and recorded on some tracks, um other visitors. It 249 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: was like every day I would turn my head to 250 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: see who's in the room because I'm busy at the console, 251 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, And I turned my head around to see 252 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: who's sitting on the couch, and it was some other 253 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: star every day. It was like Anthony Keatis from Red Out, 254 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: Pilie Peppers was there one day, and uh, you know, 255 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: it's just it went on and on on. So that 256 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: was exciting. Every day was exciting working um with those people. Um. 257 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: And then there was some very challenging artist Prince for instance. 258 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: I could say he's challenging and uh, but so rewarding 259 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: working with Prince because I would find myself uh in 260 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: this in in a control room with him only is 261 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: just Prince and I and he could play every instrument 262 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: in the room. So I would just have everything ready 263 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: and plugged in and he would reach for a guitar 264 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: or he would reach for a keyboard and I would 265 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: have it recording and he would play those instruments and 266 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: be dancing at the same time. It was incredible. It 267 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: was like my own personal show. Uh so uh every 268 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: minute was was great there too, but very into dating, 269 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: you know. But when you when you realize that they're 270 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: just people and they're just being creative, you know, that 271 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of wears off after a little while. Um, but yeah, 272 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: it's exciting to meet your heroes, and sometimes you don't 273 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: ever want to meet your heroes because it turns out 274 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: that they're just people. So you know, if you have 275 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: this fantasy about them that goes that will go away. Yeah. Well, 276 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: as a as an engineer, as a producer, how do 277 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: you shift your gears to work with such different people 278 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 1: and such different artists and how do you get them 279 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: to sort of do what you hope they'll do or 280 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: is it just purely in a thing of like I'm 281 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: stepping back and letting them do what they want to do. 282 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: We have to approach each project differently. Uh, it's not 283 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: every every technique works with everyone. So uh, I have 284 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: to be a FA and that's the that's the bottom line, 285 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: And this is what I learned from Rick Rubin is 286 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: you just have to be a fan of the music. 287 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: And there's great music in every genre and if it 288 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: moves you emotionally, then uh, then it's really easy to 289 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: help that artist, um to do their best. So that's 290 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: that's the trick. I think you just have to be 291 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: a fan and adapt to whatever situation comes up. Some 292 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: artists need a lot of help and some artists need 293 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: no help at all. And there they have everything together, 294 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: which is some sometimes dangerous too, because they'll come in 295 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: and they'll say, I have the ten songs that we 296 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: will be recording, and they have it all planned out. Well, 297 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: I might listen to those songs and think, wow, jeez, 298 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: why are you recording this song? This is this is 299 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: uh second tier song. There's better songs than you. I 300 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: might say that to them. They may be a fend 301 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: it and say, you don't know what you're talking about, 302 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: and we're recording these songs. Well, I have to I 303 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: have to also, like just understand that that it is there, 304 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: it's their music and uh and and accept the fact that, uh, 305 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: they know better than I do as far as what 306 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: their music is about. But I'll be a fan and 307 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: I'll make my own judgments about it and let them 308 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: know that's my job. Well, how do you balance that 309 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: the sort of different wills and those different strengths um 310 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: in terms of the sound you want versus the sound 311 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: they want. I mean, obviously they're the artist, but if 312 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: you're producing. How do you how do you balance that? Well, 313 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, I'll tiptoe into those situations carefully. I will. 314 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: If there's any pushback from them, I'll say, look, let's 315 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: just record it this way. Just try and try it 316 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: and see what it sounds like. You get them to 317 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: to do the part arts, uh, and then we'll take 318 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: another liston at it. And then perhaps they convinced me 319 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: that yeah, I was not right, this is not the 320 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: right thing to do. Um, but answer and some sometimes 321 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: it turns out that they listened to the parts recorded 322 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: and think, hey, actually this does work. So there's an example. 323 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: Just the last week, I recorded an artist locally named 324 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: Matt Hill and uh, I heard on one of his songs, 325 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: I heard a strings, a string section and uh. So 326 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: he allowed me to record the strings on my own uh, 327 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: and I did a beautiful string section on it. I 328 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: thought the arrangement was fantastic, and I sent him a 329 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: rough mix of it and he did not like it. 330 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: And I was shocked, was like, what you know, this 331 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: is fantastic? What are you talking about? Well? Uh, it 332 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: was it was the perspective that he took there, which 333 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: was correct, that the the strings overwhelmed the song. And 334 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: so what we did was we pulled that down the 335 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: strings at so that they were just a hint in 336 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: the background, in a in a kind of a out 337 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: of focus way. Uh and suddenly the strings work and 338 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: they worked for me if they worked for him. So 339 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: uh So I have to be careful to listen to 340 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: the artists and to realize that there they have a 341 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: different perspective in it, and that's something to really consider. 342 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: It's not my music, you know, but I'll do my 343 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: best to really bring out the the the to showcase 344 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: this song. And we'll get back to our conversation with 345 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: Sylvia Massey just for this quick break. Well, in terms 346 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: of the long hours and the hard work that you 347 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: put into engineering or producing a record, have you ever 348 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: had any trouble getting credit where credits do, whether that 349 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: means just not having your hard work recognized or literally 350 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: not being credited properly on a record. Well, back when 351 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: I started, that was always an issue. I did work 352 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: on an Aerosmith track, the song take Me to the 353 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: Other Side, and UM, I think I did get a credit, 354 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: but not not the type of credit, um that I 355 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: should have UM. On. On the other hand, there were 356 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: projects like the Prince projects where he makes you bust 357 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: your ass, you know, but then he credits you really well. 358 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: So I actually got mixing credit co mixing credit on 359 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: a on a project that I I uh my, my 360 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: contribution was minimal UM, which was great. You know, I 361 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: think he's very generous with credits UM. But when you're 362 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: starting out those that these are big issues, which are 363 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: even more challenging now because it's difficult to even find 364 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: credits on anything now. I mean you really have to 365 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: search and hope across across your figures that the credits 366 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: that you see online are correct. And this is something 367 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: else that we're working with working towards UM through NARROWS, 368 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 1: which is the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences UH, 369 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: is to make sure that the engineers and producers are 370 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: credited UM, you know, way that it's easily found and 371 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: it's correct. UM. There's an advocacy programs through narra's to 372 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: get this done UM. I was on the Steering Commedity 373 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: Committee for the Producers and Engineers Wing UH at narra's 374 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: for a while and I'm still on the advisory board. 375 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: And I think that anyone who's serious about produce production 376 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: UH or music and doing their own music recording music 377 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: should be a member of Narra's okay, um, but yeah again, 378 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: speaking about the hard work that you've put in, you 379 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: have earned more than twenty five golden platinum records, and 380 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: so I want to know what your what was your 381 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: first and how did this end up affecting your career? Oh? Wow, Well, 382 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: the golden platinum records are are awarded for sales. So 383 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: a platinum record is is a million copies sold? A 384 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: gold record is uh five thousand copies sold. So I 385 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: think my first gold record was a Prince record, the 386 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: Prince song Cream, which was a remix that did very well. 387 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: Uh and uh, it was exciting getting that record. It 388 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: just came in the mail and I opened it up 389 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: and had pictures taken and sent it to my mom. Uh. 390 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's very exciting. Uh. Of course having a 391 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: record do well with sales, um is what kick starts 392 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: your career. So for me, that was this silly record 393 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: called Green Jello. The band changed their name to Green 394 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: Jelly after General Foods. I think uh forced them to 395 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: change the name. They didn't want to be associated with 396 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: a horrible rock band. But it was a joke. It 397 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: was kind of a joke record that we did for 398 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: fun Um and it sold. It's sold up to a 399 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: million copies, I think worldwide, definitely, with a song called 400 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: three Little Pigs, and that was the one that really 401 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: kicked started my career. It was funny because when I 402 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: was in Los Angeles after I made the move and 403 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: I finally got a job at Lara B Sound and uh, 404 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: I had been working there and and had done a 405 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: lot of work with some major artists, Prince included. But 406 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't until that Green Jello uh started bubbling under 407 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: that I realized that this was going to break my 408 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: career because, uh, the studio manager, Kevin Mills, came into 409 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: the into this control room one day with a Billboard 410 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: magazine and he pointed at the Hot one hundred singles 411 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: chart and there was three Little Pigs on it, number 412 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: twenty four. He says, you you, He said, you don't 413 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: understand what this means. And I actually I didn't realize 414 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: what that meant. And that what it meant is that 415 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: I have a career. I had a career. Um and 416 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: so one one hit record and all the producer managers 417 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: start calling and here I've been knocking on their door 418 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: over and over again, like hey, look, I've got this 419 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: body of work and I've worked with prints and blah 420 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: blah blah. But it's not until you produced something that's 421 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: almost charts, uh, that there everybody wants to represent you. 422 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: And suddenly I got to pick the best manager in 423 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. His name was Frank McDonough and mcdonnah represented 424 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: me for a good fifteen more than fifteen years from 425 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: that moment. Awesome. Yeah, Um well, I was wondering if 426 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: any of the bands that you worked with, the artists 427 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: that you worked with, ever reacted differently, whether positively or negatively, 428 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: to working with a woman. And was there anything also 429 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: with other producers or even record label execs that maybe 430 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: they acted differently because you were a woman. I think 431 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: that when I started out that people would come in 432 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: and they might watch their language in front of me, 433 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: or you know, like you know, I think that's pretty much. Yet, though, 434 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: once they got to know me and realized that I 435 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: cursed like a sailor, that they stopped being shy around me. Um. So, 436 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: I think that I think it's a difficult job for anyone, 437 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: men or women. Uh and uh so I don't I 438 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: really have not felt any kind of discrimination in the studio. However, 439 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: I am surprised there's not more women doing it. In fact, 440 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: there's It's it's dramatic how few women are actually in 441 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: the in the industry. Why do you think that there 442 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: are so few? I saw one estimate that maybe five 443 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: percent of record producers and engineers or women. Why why 444 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: do you think that is? I think it's actually less 445 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: than that. UM. I have an idea of why that is. 446 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: And uh, it has to do with human biology more 447 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: than anything. And and it's just because women naturally gravitate 448 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 1: into jobs where they can have social interaction with people. 449 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: Uh and uh and and it may be as basic 450 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: as that. UM. I wish that there were more women 451 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: in the in the industry. And actually I'm uh, I 452 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: don't know what happened to me as far as that goes. 453 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: I kind of like being in a cave, um by 454 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: myself for the most part. And and I just love music, 455 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: so um, those natural gravitations didn't apply. UM. But I think, yeah, 456 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: most women are too smart. I think most women I 457 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: want to um, to be able to interact with people 458 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: and to meet people, and and so they have different 459 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: career paths. Uh, it takes so long to get started 460 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: in in a career in recording, and you have to 461 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: really do fourteen hour days for for ten years straight, um, 462 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: taking every job, barely getting paid, and and it's just 463 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: too long to wait, you know, for most people. Did 464 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: you when you were in college, for instance, working at 465 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: the radio station, did you know other young women who 466 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: were interested in the same things you were. I'm just 467 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: wondering if there's some sort of pipeline leak that you know. 468 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 1: Kristen and I talked about on the podcast a lot, 469 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: especially in terms of science jobs, technology jobs, things like that. 470 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: We always talk about the pipeline of where women and 471 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: young girls to start out being super interested in maybe 472 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 1: a science or a technology field, and then as they 473 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: get older, they tend to sort of fall out or 474 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: fall behind. And have you noticed that in the in 475 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: the industry, Urine, there are a lot of people that 476 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: a lot of women that are interested and they do 477 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: go to school. Uh and they uh, they, But like 478 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: I say, it takes so long. I think they get 479 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: discouraged after five years of not making any money and 480 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: being cooped up in a studio. Uh So yeah, I 481 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: I absolutely understand where they go. For me, UM, there 482 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: was a leak and that was in San Francisco. There 483 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: was a studio called the Automat. And when I first 484 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: started out, and when I first moved to San Francisco, UM, 485 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: I knew that there were there was recording going on 486 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: there and they had all the big acts. It was Santana, 487 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: was Jefferson Airplane. They were all recording in this place. 488 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: And I'd sit out in the parking lot across the 489 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: street with a friend who was a parking lot attended 490 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: h and I'd watched the engineers go in and out 491 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: of the studio and the during the day, and I 492 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: noticed that there were there there were two women that 493 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: worked on staff there. One was Maureen Droni and one 494 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: was Leslie and Jones, and I knew who they were, 495 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: and I'd see them walk in and I knew that 496 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: Maureen was recording Santana, and I knew that Lesliean was 497 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: doing some other equally UM high profile project. And for me, 498 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: so so seeing that, I thought, well, these girls, this 499 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: is this is what these this is what women do. 500 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: The women go and they take these jobs, their technical jobs, 501 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: and uh and certainly if they can do it, I 502 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: can do it, So that really inspired me to um 503 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: to continue. Leslie and Jones today runs Skywalker Sound of 504 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: the studios there in in Marin County outside of San Francisco. 505 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: That's George Lucas's place. And UH and Maureen dron E 506 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: uh is the head of the Peony Wing for the 507 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. So she's done 508 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: really well, but she's not recording. Uh. Leslian is recording 509 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: every day. But it's it's important to have those those 510 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: people who inspire you to continue. As far as women go, 511 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: you need to have, um, these role models who says 512 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: to just to let you know that, yeah, if this 513 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: is a direction you want to go in, then absolutely 514 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: the it's something that you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Well, 515 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: you know you've mentored a fair number of young engineers yourself. 516 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: What advice do you have for girls or boys who 517 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: are interested in pursuing a career at the control board? Well, 518 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: I met with Susan Rodgers recently for the book. She 519 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: was an engineer for Prince and all his early work 520 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: and some of the greatest recordings that he ever's done. UM, 521 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: and she had some very wise advice and that was 522 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: if you're getting into recording, diversify and specialize in one 523 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: thing or a couple of things that that are are particular. 524 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: Like for her, she was a tech she could fix 525 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: equipment so as well as well she was a recording engineer, 526 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: but she also could fix anything, so there was added 527 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: value in having her around. If you're going up against 528 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: twenty other people for a job, then you need an edge. 529 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: So uh, you know, if you're a programmer, if you 530 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: can program music, that's a huge advantage. If you're great 531 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: background singer, that's a good advantage. Uh, if you can 532 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: in fact create websites, you're going to find that musicians 533 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 1: will want to have you on their team. So you'll 534 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: probably get more production gigs that way, or engineering as 535 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: that way. Um. So there's a lot of different avenues 536 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: you can take that will give you added value, um 537 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: when you're competing against a large pool of people. So 538 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: that's one thing I thought Susan Rodgers had some great advice. 539 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: So with with that, well, what do you tell the 540 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: young engineers that you work with, especially if they get 541 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: discouraged or if they're you know, starting to wonder if 542 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: this is what's right for them or if they're just 543 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: looking for sort of a way to continue in the industry, 544 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: what do you what do you tell them? Well, that's 545 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: that's sometimes difficult. You know. I'll always say, you know, 546 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: do just to stick with a stick with it, stick 547 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: with it. But at some point, uh, you have to 548 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: make these life choices and go in a different direction 549 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: if that's if that's truly what you need to do. Honestly, 550 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: in the the three or five years, or let's say, 551 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: since two thousand when I started my own studio up 552 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: here in in northern California, UM, I've only really run 553 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: into four engineers that I thought should do this forever. 554 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: You know, it takes such dedication and you have to 555 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: have such good hearing and understanding of music. There's very 556 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: few people that have everything it takes, UM, and I 557 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: can I can name them on one hand. You know, 558 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: the people that I absolutely trust with any project, and 559 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: they're they're the best, UM, because I think that you 560 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: need to know more than just engineering. You need to 561 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: be able to mix, and mixing is the hardest thing 562 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: to do. UH. You have to take everything that you 563 00:39:53,440 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 1: were recorded and blended at to uh, to to where 564 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: you have depth of field and you have dynamics in 565 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: the music and you capture the essence of the song 566 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: and the artists. Um, and that just seems to be 567 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: the hardest thing to do. So uh, there are women 568 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: that have come through the studio. One in particular, Lorie Castro, 569 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: is an engineer. She works in Los Angeles now and 570 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: she took a slightly different direction. She went out of 571 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: the music recording field and into film and soundtrack work 572 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: and she's doing really well right now working on movies 573 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: like Transformers and other big movies. So so you can 574 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: you can adjust the direction that you're going into to 575 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: keep your feet in uh, to keep your feet in 576 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: the keep your feet wet, keep keeping the business. So 577 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: but there are opportunity he's out there. Um. Well, this 578 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: might be a controversial question, but I've I've seen interviews 579 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: with different women producers, engineers, mixers who say that, yes, 580 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: women do bring something different to the table, whether that's 581 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: a certain sound or a certain um idea about the 582 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: way things should be. And then I've seen other people 583 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: say no, no, no, women, No, they're just like men. 584 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: It's all the same and it's the work that matters. 585 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: Do you look what side of defense do you fall 586 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: on are you in the middle, What do you think? Oh, 587 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: I think men and women are vastly different creatures. In fact, 588 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: you're right, I think they bring different qualities to the work. 589 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: And there's uh one thing in particular, um that I 590 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,280 Speaker 1: think that women bring in in a recording session when 591 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: musicians come in, that being a woman and immediately disarmed 592 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: the guys because they're not. You know, there's a thing 593 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: that happened when men are together. There's like, you know, 594 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: some kind of strutting or whatever, you know, like cock 595 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: fights or whatever. I don't know. But with with women, 596 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: it's like they feel more comfortable to be themselves. I 597 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: think you get better performances. Uh. So it's uh, it's 598 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: instantly a better situation. I personally think, you know, because 599 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: it depends on the woman. But but I think when 600 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: you're working with men in particular, that um that the 601 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: being a woman has an advantage. Did you have you 602 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: disarmed anybody in your career that that you are aware of? Oh? 603 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: So many? And because you can imagine these guys coming 604 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: in and they're all burly. Because I work with hard music, 605 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, I've worked with Slayer and System of a 606 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: Down and uh, you know, a bunch of really hard 607 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: rockers and they come in. They've got piercings, and they're 608 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: covered with tattoos, and they've got you know, colored hair, 609 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: and they're wearing leather and they're stopping around, you know, 610 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: and uh and they're really intimidating creatures. And um so, yeah, 611 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: I have a lot of fun with them. Right away. 612 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 1: I'll I'll disarmed the session entirely and uh, you know, uh, 613 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: just throw a chair or whatever it takes you, you know, 614 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: get them loosened up. We have fun. Yeah. Well, so 615 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm interested in your take on what's next for the industry, 616 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: but also what's next for you? What are what are 617 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: you working on? Also, well, this is my first chance. 618 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't mention the fact that I divorced 619 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,439 Speaker 1: and moved the studio because of all that. Uh so 620 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: this is a chance to really do what I want. 621 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: And what I want to do is write a book, 622 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,359 Speaker 1: and then I've got another book right after that, and 623 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: then I got another book right after that. And I 624 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: want to paint. And I'm in a situation now where 625 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: I can uh do a little recording, paint a picture, 626 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: take a trip. I'll do some workshops in Europe. Uh. Basically, 627 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is retirement. I don't know. 628 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: I've been spoiled my whole life. I think by by 629 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: doing this this uh, by being in this industry. UH, 630 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: it's not work, you know, it's UM, it's inspiration every day. 631 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: So so now I'm just going to write and draw 632 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: and paint and record music and and have fun. UM. 633 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: So that's what's coming up now. I do have several 634 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: projects in in UM in the in the works and 635 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: as far as music recording projects, I've got to UM 636 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: an Australian band coming up this fall, Filthy Luker and 637 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 1: UH another band called Decades that I'll be working with. 638 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: UM and I'll be in Dressed in this summer recording 639 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:32,240 Speaker 1: UM two artists in a castle UH and UH in Bergen, Norway. 640 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: I'll be going this summer also to record another project. UM. Yeah, 641 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: life is good. I don't look like it. I'm luck you, lucky, 642 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: lucky me. Well, Sylvia, I've I've asked you a ton 643 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: of questions, um and and that's about all I had 644 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: for you. But is there anything that you feel like 645 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: we didn't touch on, whether it's about women in the industry, 646 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: whether it's about your career, um, just about being a 647 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,240 Speaker 1: music producer. Anything that you feel like we didn't touch on. Well, 648 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: if you really want to be a music producer and 649 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: you're a woman, here's what happens is you'll find yourself 650 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,479 Speaker 1: thirty seven years old and you'll be having to make 651 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: that hard choice career or family, and just make that 652 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: choice carefully. That's all I can say, you know. I mean, 653 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: I have no children. I missed. I missed that part 654 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 1: of of life as a woman, and I have a 655 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: whole world of children though I've worked with four hundred 656 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: bands and they have to say that they're kind of 657 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: those records and those those songs are are my children, 658 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: and these paintings are my children, and um, so I 659 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: want to give to the world that way too. But 660 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: but boy, being a woman is it is a challenge, 661 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, when when you have the pool of wanting 662 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: to um, express yourself and creatively, um, it's a trick 663 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 1: to do it and have the family too. So that's 664 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: the hard truth. Yeah, have you encountered other producers who 665 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: feel the same way, other women in the industry who 666 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: feel similarly, Well, you know, that's kind of a personal 667 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: thing that I haven't really talked to with other women. 668 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: You know, there's so few women when we get together 669 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:40,919 Speaker 1: we don't really talk about Yeah, but yeah, I think 670 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: it's an important thing to to talk about with with 671 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: the young up and comings. It's just don't miss your chance. 672 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 1: If that's important to just don't miss your chance. Yeah, absolutely, 673 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: I mean I think, yeah, that's great advice in any industry, 674 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: in any job of course. Um. Well, so, Sylvia, tell 675 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,799 Speaker 1: our listeners where they can learn more about you and 676 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: about your upcoming book. Yeah. I have a website www. 677 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 1: Sylvia Massey dot com and that is spelled s y 678 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: l V I A M A S S y uh. 679 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: And on that website is an information about the book, 680 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: UM and about the studio here and other projects I'm 681 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: working on or have worked on. It's a fun website 682 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: full of photos, but the fun things can be This book. 683 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: It's coming out on how Leonard How Leonard Publishing UM January, 684 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: and uh. It's called Recording Unhinged and it's unconventional recording techniques, 685 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: very unconventional, including chickens chickens, yes, and shooting pianos. Yeah. Well, fabulous, 686 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Sylvia. It's been such a pleasure 687 00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: talking to you. Well, thank you so much to Sylvia 688 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: Massi and to you Caroline for chatting with her. Um. 689 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,439 Speaker 1: I know that we have a lot of musicians and 690 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: just basic music fans in our audience, so I'm looking 691 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: forward to hearing everybody's feedback on this, and also be 692 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: sure to keep an eye out in sixteen for her 693 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: forthcoming book Recording Unhinged, which she is writing and also illustrating. 694 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: What can't Sylvia Massy do? Caroline, pretty sure she can 695 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: do everything just about. So, Caroline, what was your favorite 696 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: thing that you talked to Sylvia about? Well, I mean, 697 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: I loved getting her perspective on the gender aspect of 698 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 1: her job and of the industry because it's it's pretty pronounced. 699 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,959 Speaker 1: I kind of, to be honest with you, I didn't 700 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: expect her to talk about such a pronounced effect of 701 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: the role of gender um whether positive or negative. Uh So, 702 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,360 Speaker 1: I really liked her take on that. But I think 703 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 1: as you can tell from listening to me giggle with 704 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: her about it, uh really loved hearing about how you 705 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,359 Speaker 1: mike a chicken and and prepare a Chicken for its 706 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: musical debut. Well, it's also good for us to know 707 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,760 Speaker 1: that information for when we have our first chicken guest 708 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: on the show, something for listeners to look forward to, 709 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: because chickens, you know, they deal with sexism in the 710 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: henhouse as well. It's right, all that overcrowding. Yes, it's 711 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:36,840 Speaker 1: gonna lay the eggs, you know, well hands because that's biology, 712 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: right well, listeners, if you want to learn more about Sylvia, 713 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: head over to her website, Sylvia Massey. That's Massy with 714 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,359 Speaker 1: no e dot com. And we now want to hear 715 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: from you. Do we have any record producers in our 716 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: audience listening? We want to know mom Stuff at house 717 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You can also 718 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,840 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast and messages on Facebook, 719 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 720 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: you right now. I have a letter here from Owen 721 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: in regards to our transgender TV episodes. He says, I'm 722 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 1: a transgender man myself, though I hate feeling like like 723 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 1: I have to preface any trans feminist queer related opinion 724 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: with that piece of information. I noticed a few times 725 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 1: during the podcast you used male pronouns when referring to 726 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: transgender women pre transition, or used phrases like a cis 727 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 1: gender man transitioning to a transgender woman, and so on. 728 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: I can't speak for everybody, of course, but I know 729 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: that I prefer the retroactive application of preferred pronouns. For example, 730 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 1: when he was younger, he used to because, regardless of 731 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 1: my physical appearance or how others perceived me at the time, 732 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: my gender identity has always been as it is now, 733 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 1: and I could certainly never describe myself as having been 734 00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: since gender because I've always been transgender. If I had 735 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: to refer to the difference in my experience pre and 736 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: post transition, I generally used the phrase when I was 737 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: perceived as female, though it's rare I use any phrase 738 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,399 Speaker 1: that requires me to refer to such an unhappy time 739 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: in my life and does so in terms so close 740 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: to the very cause of that unhappiness. Being trans always 741 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: has been part of my experience, even when others didn't 742 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: know it and I didn't have the words to describe it. 743 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,799 Speaker 1: Those two are part of the experience, after all, not 744 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: having the words in some cases, keeping a secret as 745 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: yet not even clearly defined to oneself, and so on. 746 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: So I've always been transgender. With all that entails. It 747 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: would be a little like referring to someone as having 748 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: been straight up until that they came out to you 749 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,319 Speaker 1: as gay. I hope that makes sense. Owen goes on 750 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,200 Speaker 1: to say other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode 751 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,880 Speaker 1: and thank you for the excellent work. As always, I 752 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: look forward to hearing part two and more discussion with 753 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,040 Speaker 1: the wonderful Raquel Willis. Thank you for reading my two cents, 754 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,319 Speaker 1: and thank you for providing those two cents. Ellen. Yeah, 755 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,359 Speaker 1: and and that's a really great thing to point out 756 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: which has come up a lot with the media coverage 757 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: about Caitlin Jenner, because the media, a lot of a 758 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: lot of media outlets have been describing her as Caitlyn 759 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: Jenner formerly Bruce Jenner, whereas the correct way to say 760 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,479 Speaker 1: it is Caitlyn Jenner formerly known as Bruce Jenner, because 761 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,400 Speaker 1: it's not like it is an entirely different person. Um So, Owen, 762 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,880 Speaker 1: thanks so much for pointing that out and making us 763 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,760 Speaker 1: all more aware of the way that we use our language, 764 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 1: because language is powerful. Well, I've got another correction e 765 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:40,080 Speaker 1: letter from LC, subject line vagina having folks. She writes, Hello, 766 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: this message is one I've wanted to send you for 767 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,799 Speaker 1: a while. I thought it was particularly relevant in light 768 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: of the topic of your podcast on transisibility in the media. 769 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,120 Speaker 1: I've noticed that in your podcast and in the advertising 770 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,880 Speaker 1: you deliver, you often refer to all people who have 771 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: vagina slash a uterus and all people who can be 772 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,239 Speaker 1: pregnant as women. This made me cringe quite a bit 773 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: in the Baby Bump series and in your meet Andy's ads. 774 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,399 Speaker 1: It's great to have an explicitly feminist podcast out there, 775 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: but part of that needs to include supporting your trans listeners. 776 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,960 Speaker 1: Assuming that all vagina holding people identifies women is thoughtless 777 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,800 Speaker 1: at the least, and it worst could be seen as transphobic, 778 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: which I know you aren't. I hope you'll think about 779 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,000 Speaker 1: this and correct your language. I think the podcast is 780 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:23,560 Speaker 1: great and would love to be able to share it 781 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 1: with my trans friends without having to add a caveat 782 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,759 Speaker 1: and Elsie, thank you for pointing this out to us 783 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: in the way we speak about it. I would also 784 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,479 Speaker 1: like to direct you to a stuff Mom Never Told 785 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 1: you video all about this called men can Get Pregnant Too, 786 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: because in a conversation about abortion rights reproductive rights UM 787 00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,360 Speaker 1: it was a very sis focused conversation I was having 788 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,520 Speaker 1: and some of YouTube fans pointed that out to me, 789 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,839 Speaker 1: so it is something that we are cognizant of and 790 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,400 Speaker 1: we appreciate those reminders to stay on our toes about that. So, 791 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 1: if you have things you need us to stay on 792 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,360 Speaker 1: our toes about, you can email us mom Stuff and 793 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: how stuff We're dot com is our address. You can 794 00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 795 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 796 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,800 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, head 797 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:17,680 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com 798 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 799 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: It how stuff works dot com