1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Joining us now is Alex Eisenstadt. He is a reporter 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: at Axios, but more importantly for today, he is the 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: author of a new book, Revenge, the inside story of 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: Trump's return to Power. Alex one of the best campaign 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: reporters out there. I'm excited to talk to him. Glad 6 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: to see you, sir. 7 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: Thanks guys, thanks for having me. 8 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, So the book is out. There's been 9 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: some pretty jaw dropping stuff that has come out. One 10 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: of them an allegation that a Fox News fed some 11 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: questions to Trump before a town hall. But broadly, Alex, 12 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: I've followed you for many years. You've always had a 13 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: lot of inside scoops. So, without giving away too much 14 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: so people will still buy the book, just tell us 15 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: the broad narrative that you wanted to capture in this book. 16 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: So I started covering. I started writing this book in 17 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: early twenty twenty three, and I wanted to just create 18 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: a TikTok, behind the scenes account of what happened during 19 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: Trump's comeback campaign. So I talked to as many people 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: on Trump's inner circle as I could, and the idea 21 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: was to create a fly on the wall narrative. And 22 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: I didn't know none of us knew what would happen 23 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: in this campaign when it first began, but we all 24 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: knew it was gonna be dramatic. We all knew it 25 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: was going to be interesting, and so my goal was 26 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: to really capture that narrative. And it turned out to 27 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: be just as dramatic and just as interesting as we 28 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: all thought, if not more so. 29 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: So. Two of the sort of most pivotal moments, it 30 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: seemed from the outside, were the Biden switch through and 31 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 3: then obviously the assassination attempt did from within Trump world. 32 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: Were those the two moments that seemed the most pivotable 33 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: pivotal or were there others that you would add into 34 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 3: that mixed mix? What was the vibe like in each 35 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: of those moments. 36 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: I think that's right. I think those were definitely two 37 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: of the most pivotal moments. And you look at Butler, 38 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: and one of the things that I talked about in 39 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: this book was that there were actually a lot of 40 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: There were a lot of scares, There were a lot 41 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: of threats on Trump's life. One of the things I 42 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: talked a lot about after the Butler shooting was a 43 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: ran and a rand role in how it was threatening him. 44 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: The extraordinary steps that the Trump campaign had to take 45 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: in order to evade threats from Ran, including using a 46 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 2: secret putting Trump on a secret flight, putting him on 47 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 2: a flight other than Trump forced one, and then obviously 48 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: the switcheroo. And one of the interesting things about the 49 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: switcheroo was that Trump, going into his first debate with Biden, 50 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: was actually afraid that if he hit Biden too hard 51 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: that Biden would drop out of the race. Foresaw the problem. 52 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: He sort of foresaw the possibility that Biden could end 53 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: up getting out of the race after the debate, which 54 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: of course is what happened. 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: So, yeah, Alex take us in those days. What was 56 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: the thinking inside the campaign? Were they ever afraid of 57 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris? Were they very confident that they were going 58 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,279 Speaker 1: to win the whole time? What was their internal strategy 59 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: during the switch? 60 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: So right after the switch that month, after Biden got 61 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: out and Harris got in, that was probably the bumpiest 62 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: for the Trump campaign. Trump had just survived this assassination attempt. 63 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: He was very understandably, very jarred, very rattled from it. 64 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: He called a friend the day after the shooting and 65 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: he said that if the bullet had come within a 66 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: hair closer, his brain would have exploded like a watermelon 67 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: on live television. He was very afraid after that the 68 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: shooting understandably snow for his life. He wondered a lot 69 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: about staging for events, and then he was rattled about 70 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: Biden getting out of the race and having this new opponent. 71 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: And sometimes this manifested itself in Trump going off script, 72 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: like he did at the National Association of Black Journalists meetings, 73 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: such as when he went after Brian Camp in Georgia. 74 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: There was a month there where Trump was really was 75 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: really off script. For the first time he had run 76 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: this very discipline campaign, and for the first time, things 77 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: didn't look good for him in that month. But then afterwards, 78 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: when you got out of July, when you got out 79 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: of August, Trump found his footing again and he was 80 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: able to defeat Kamala Harris. The final few weeks the race, 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: Trump was concerned. He definitely had some jitters, but things 82 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: definitely turned around from him from there. 83 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: Interesting talk a little bit about the Elon Musk relationship, 84 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 3: which has come to be like the most central dynamic 85 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 3: of Trump two point zero, which is I think not 86 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: something that many people truly expected, although if you just 87 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: look at the sheer amount of dollars that he put 88 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: into the race, perhaps it should have been better anticipated. 89 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: How did that romance begin? Because he had not only 90 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: previously supported Ron de Santis, I mean, and Obama were buddies. 91 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 3: Obama's administration gave him some critical loans to Tesla at 92 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: an important time in his career. He'd previously been war 93 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: inclined towards the Democratic Party. So what built that relationship? 94 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: And then, as a corollary, were you surprised to see 95 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 3: Elon be so central, hog so much attention and for 96 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: Trump to be like pretty subservient to him. 97 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: It was one of those gradual things that Elon Trump relationship. 98 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: One of the interesting things I talked about this book 99 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: is that Elon actually played a role in getting jd. 100 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: Vance picked for vice president, And that was one of 101 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: the first big roles that Elon played on the race. 102 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: And one of the things that Elon told Trump right 103 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: after the assassination attempting Butler, which was right before jd 104 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: Vance's pick, was that if you pick He told Trump 105 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: that if you pick someone who hails from the establishment 106 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: quote unquote deep state part of the Republican Party, that 107 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: will give the deep state or the establishing more incentive 108 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: to try to kill you again. And that so Elon 109 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: Musk was one of the last people to give Trump 110 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 2: advice before he picked JD. Vance, and he waited for 111 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: JD Vance. 112 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 3: Let me just real quick on that before you finish 113 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: your answer, because that's very interesting nugget that I didn't realize. 114 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: What do you think it was that made Elon want 115 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 3: jd to be on the ticket. I understand how he 116 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: pitched it to Trump because on the surface level, they 117 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: actually seem to have some you know, ideological distinctions. JD 118 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 3: Vance has, you know, pitched himself more in the Trumpian 119 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: sort of like populist national slane. Elon is more of 120 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: this like you know, I would say tech feudalists like 121 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 3: Javier Malay and Arco capitalist type. So what was it 122 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: that Why was he's so interested in having Jadvance on 123 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 3: the ticket? 124 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: The bottom line is that they both hail from the 125 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: same kind of tech wing of the party. And Elon 126 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: Musk is really close to a guy named David Sachs, 127 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: who I'm sure a lot of your viewers and listeners 128 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: will know. He's the guy he has He actually has 129 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: his own podcast it's called all In, and he's a 130 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: big player in Silicon Valley. Jd Vance is also close 131 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: to David Sacks, as is Elon Musk, and so that 132 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: was a really big connector in this, and then there 133 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: were just other tech players and that sort of served 134 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: as a connection point between the two of them. 135 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: Interesting, Alex, you know we're continuing like in this vein 136 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: because you have also covered campaign finance really well, what 137 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: do you make of the influence of Elon's money in 138 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: the campaign? How determinive, how determinative was it actually, as 139 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: somebody who's covered this for many. 140 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: Years, Yeah, I mean he gave him a two hundred 141 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: He gave Trump essentially a two hundred and fifty million 142 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: dollars infusion, and that's that's really important. And the role 143 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: he played was important because Trump Elon Musk's operation was 144 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: focused on ground game and getting out the vote, not 145 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: so much on TV ads, but mostly on ground game 146 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: and getting out the vote. And so when Elon first 147 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: started doing this, when his super pack really first kicked 148 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: up its operations, there were a lot of questions about 149 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: the strength of Trump's ground game door knocking effort, and 150 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: so Elon Musk put in a lot of money to 151 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: help solve that problem. And that was really important because 152 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: there were a lot of concerns in Trump's campaign and 153 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: in the broader Republican world that Democrats Joe Bien and 154 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: Kambla Harris were just simply more organized in terms of 155 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: getting out the vote. 156 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: Yes, do you think that Trump thinks Elon is the 157 00:07:59,400 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: reason he won? 158 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think Trump thinks he's the 159 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: reason he won. Trump always sees himself as being the 160 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: primary player, the main driver of things, and so he 161 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: definitely is appreciative of Elon Musk and what he did, 162 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: but he doesn't he sees himself as the guy who 163 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: won this race for one hundred percent sure. 164 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: And so why do you think he has been had 165 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: such a different relationship with Elon than he has with 166 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: anyone else where? You know, I mean, Elon's there holding 167 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: court in the Oval office and T shirt and a hat. 168 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: Elon is taking control. Elon is, you know, putting out 169 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: the messaging. Elon's creating political problems for Trump, and he's 170 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: never really checked. I mean, we did have the secret 171 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 3: cabinet meeting where apparently so that Okay, these guys are 172 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: in charge, but it has been much more deferential than 173 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: we've ever seen Trump be towards anyone else, like to 174 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: what do you ascribe that? 175 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: Well, look, Elon plays by a different set of rules. 176 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: You're one hundred percent right. He is more deferential to 177 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: Elon than he would be to really any other cabinet 178 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: member or any other staffer that Trump has ever had 179 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: his two terms in the White House. But look, Elon's 180 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: a different kind of player. He's worth what several hundred 181 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: billion dollars at this point, And when you have that 182 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: kind of money, it can let it gives you enormous 183 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: amount of power. It gives you the ability to go 184 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: do whatever you want. He can go set up a 185 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: super pack, he could go back to his businesses. And 186 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: so Trump has a lot less leverage over Elon Musk 187 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: than he does a typical cabinet member. Elon's wealth gives 188 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: him an enormous amount of power, a nom enormous amount 189 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: of sway over politics, and so Trump's gotta be a 190 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: little careful in terms of how he handles the Elon 191 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: Musk interesting. 192 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I trust you, Alex, and everyone should 193 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: go on buy the book. We appreciate joining. 194 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 3: Us man, yeah, thank you so much. 195 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's our pleasure.