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Speaker 1: Haydes Doug Gilly was Uh. Welcome into All Ball, the

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Speaker 1: All about basketball podcast where we talk usually a little

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Speaker 1: bit more than just basketball. Kelvin Sampson, head coach of Houston,

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Speaker 1: just won his six hundred game. Competed against him when

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Speaker 1: he was at Oklahoma. I remember when we was at

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Speaker 1: Washington State. Of course we all remember Indiana. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember Montana Tech? I don't. Um, we'll talk to Montana Tech.

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Speaker 1: So Michigan State. He was a grad assistant there, and

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Speaker 1: of course a little bit of Houston as he'll join

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Speaker 1: us a little bit later on in the show. Um.

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Speaker 1: Should should be a little bit later on in the pod.

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Speaker 1: Should be great, So Kelvin Sampson. Also, Kyle Dott will

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Speaker 1: be our guest. Kyle Dodd's a four point guard at

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Speaker 1: Arizona State. He's their radio color analyst. I want to

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Speaker 1: ask him about about I think he was a point

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Speaker 1: guard when Eddie House had sixty one points. He was

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Speaker 1: a freshman Eddie House as a senior, Asking what that

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Speaker 1: experience is like. And I want to ask him about

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Speaker 1: the Pack twelve. I is the PAC twelve so down

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Speaker 1: and I'll kind of give you my own thoughts a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, I give you my own thoughts right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: I do think that there are certain leagues and certain

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Speaker 1: schools that are not built to be able to withstand

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Speaker 1: the massive turnover. A matter of fact, most programs aren't.

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Speaker 1: Makes Michigan even more remarkable, right they lose Moe Wagner, Um,

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Speaker 1: you lose Shreef Abdua Rockman, and up until the last

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Speaker 1: weekend game I called against Wisconsin, they were undefeated. Part

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Speaker 1: of that is bline. Part of that is the recruiting.

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Speaker 1: Part of it is the core of the guys that

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Speaker 1: they brought back. And part of that is schedule, right,

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Speaker 1: some some of the schedule who you get when you

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Speaker 1: get them. You played a national championship game, you want

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Speaker 1: a Big ten tournament the year before. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of programs like Villanova wasn't really built to withstand. Had

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Speaker 1: they not lost Dante di Vincenzo and Spellman, they're a

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Speaker 1: top five, top seven team this year. Anyway, they just

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Speaker 1: are duke. Obviously in Kentucky they have to build themselves

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Speaker 1: to with stand massive losses and defections to the NBA.

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Speaker 1: But they're able to get the top five guy. You know,

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Speaker 1: fight over the top five guys, and you see Ashton

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Speaker 1: Higgin's improving remarkably because he's a legit dude. And you

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Speaker 1: see how good Duke is, especially when they have Trey Jones.

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Speaker 1: So you look at the West Coast programs and from

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Speaker 1: Oregon State losing Drew eu Banks who put his name

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Speaker 1: in and signed a two way contract with the Spurs,

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Speaker 1: you know, to UH to Stanford, losing read Travis who

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Speaker 1: grab transferred out to U C. L A, losing Aaron

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Speaker 1: Holiday to Arizona, losing essentially their entire team. You know,

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Speaker 1: a senior lady, you lose, you lose trade holder, three

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Speaker 1: big senior trayers on the state. Like these programs aren't

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Speaker 1: built to withstand this USC might have been but between

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Speaker 1: Betty boat right not being right, between Kevin Porter and

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Speaker 1: all the misfires there. But the big thing is you're judged.

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Speaker 1: A league is judged based upon their their elite level,

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Speaker 1: their top level programs, and Cal is a dumpster fire.

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Speaker 1: It should be a better program, but they've been depleted

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Speaker 1: by the NBA and by you know, Conzo not building

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Speaker 1: it for the long term and then leaving shortly into

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Speaker 1: his stay. And you see, I mean, but it's really

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Speaker 1: U c l A in Arizona and Arizona because of

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Speaker 1: the accusations mid season last year against Sean Miller lost

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Speaker 1: most of the recruiting class and U c l A.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was it was tenuous at best to

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Speaker 1: see if Alfred could keep his job. And they're really

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Speaker 1: young and they only have one point guard on the team.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're judge by. But we'll get Cale Dodds thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Um a couple of thoughts quickly around the NBA. It

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Speaker 1: does feel like Kyrie Irving has decided to uh walk

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Speaker 1: the walk after talking to talk? Doesn't it like single

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Speaker 1: handedly taking over games, showing the ability to have double

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Speaker 1: digits and assists. It's always interesting when somebody comes out

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Speaker 1: in the media, and I didn't feel like he ripped

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Speaker 1: his teammates. I feel like what he said was like, hey, look,

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Speaker 1: you want to get there, I've been there. I also

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Speaker 1: didn't feel any sort of negative feelings towards him when

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Speaker 1: he said he called Lebron James. Haven't you ever want

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Speaker 1: to call somebody in your life and say, hey, you

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Speaker 1: know what I was an ass then sorry? Can you

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Speaker 1: forgive me? I really learned a lot from you. I've

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Speaker 1: done that I thought Kyrie showed an incredible amount of maturity.

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Speaker 1: And then after that, whatever happened in Orlando, taking over games,

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Speaker 1: scoring and assistant, he's been magnificent. It's been pretty amazing

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Speaker 1: to watch him walk the walk after talk of the talk.

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Speaker 1: A guy who for whatever reason, sometimes doesn't get the

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Speaker 1: respect I think he deserves. He's a top ten, maybe

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Speaker 1: top five player in the NBA. He is that dynamic.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you a couple other quick NBA thoughts

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Speaker 1: and then I'll give you some college stuff. Some teams

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Speaker 1: that I've seen in person. The Golden State Warriors have

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Speaker 1: added DeMarcus Cousins, and I do look, there's still going

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Speaker 1: to be the overwhelming favorite to win it all. And

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Speaker 1: so when I tweet about de Marcus Cousins looking heavy

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Speaker 1: and lacking lift and being out of shape, and also

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Speaker 1: how the Warriors gonna have to change the way they

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Speaker 1: play with him, I feel that's a that's a basketball

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Speaker 1: opinion that I have and that is shared by others

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Speaker 1: in the NBA. Where the share by others or not,

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Speaker 1: but it is actually shared by others in the NBA.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Cousins has always been the best

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Speaker 1: or second best player on his team, and now all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, he's gonna have to be the fifth

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Speaker 1: best player. That's everyone says, I'll be fine. We'll see

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Speaker 1: and if you play him, even if he gets back

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Speaker 1: to being healthy, and right now he's not fully healthy,

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Speaker 1: he's not fully in shape, he's not moving the same,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't jump the same that. Remember, the Golden State

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Speaker 1: Warriors have won three championships playing with their death lineup.

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Speaker 1: The death lineup does not incur have a big guy.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that the death lineup works is Draymond

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Speaker 1: can play center and they can switch with everybody with

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Speaker 1: exception for the most part of Steph Curry. If you

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Speaker 1: add to Marcus Cousins, though, it can improve your efficiency

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Speaker 1: on offense and give you another weapon, and also can

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Speaker 1: really hurt you on defense because now you have two

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Speaker 1: guys that you're gonna try and hide right now that

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Speaker 1: you can't switch. Uh, you know, with everyone, you have

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Speaker 1: two guys you don't really want to switch with changes,

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Speaker 1: their ball screen cover changes, it changes a lot of

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Speaker 1: how they play. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: done the deal if I was the Warriors, considering who

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Speaker 1: else was out there. Considering my options. It was a

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Speaker 1: great option, but it doesn't mean that it's locked up

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Speaker 1: since they win a championship. It just doesn't. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot more to it than that. And he's coming off

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Speaker 1: of an Achilles tendon tear and he doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: he's back the same. Now can he get back to

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Speaker 1: You got four months before he plays in the NBA Finals.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason to believe he won't be better. He

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Speaker 1: won't be further along. Uh. An additional concern is he

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Speaker 1: looks a little bit heavy. I would have thought he'd

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Speaker 1: looked light coming in and looking a little bit heavy.

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Speaker 1: That is what tends to have. Other things get hurt, right,

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Speaker 1: Achilles tend it's fine, but now you pull a hammy

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Speaker 1: and now your knee has soreness, your hips, your back

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Speaker 1: because you're carrying a little bit more weight and you're

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Speaker 1: not trying to favor your Achilles tenant. But your body

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Speaker 1: is still learning how to adjust and play while you're

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Speaker 1: recovering from what's the debilitating injury. So it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: something to watch. I don't think the Warriors bench is

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Speaker 1: nearly what has been. I know that Livingston has been

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Speaker 1: a mid range bucket getter and found a way to

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Speaker 1: dig deep in the playoffs before and Iguadala went healthy.

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Speaker 1: But he wasn't healthy last year, and we'll see if

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Speaker 1: he can dig deep again in the playoffs. So we

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Speaker 1: we shall see. I'm not convinced that they are better,

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Speaker 1: demonstrably because of Boogie Cousins that even though JaVale McGhee

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Speaker 1: is not a better player than Boogie Cousins, JaVale McGee

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Speaker 1: no knew his role, block shots, occasionally score. There was

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Speaker 1: one game in the finals where he did have to score,

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Speaker 1: but but stay out of the way, just be a

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Speaker 1: screen or remover fly on the wall. And then when

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Speaker 1: he's out of the game, he was fine with it.

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Speaker 1: When DeMarcus is out of the game, how will he

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Speaker 1: handle it. I still think it's gonna be fascinating to

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Speaker 1: want much. I also don't wonder if anybody in the

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Speaker 1: West can beat them. The Rockets aren't as good as

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Speaker 1: they were previously, and Chris Paul, of course not healthy.

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Speaker 1: Where have I heard that before? The likelihood that Chris

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Speaker 1: Paul is healthy and that they're better than last year.

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Speaker 1: Last year's Rockets team beats this year's Warriors team, but

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Speaker 1: last year's Rockets team is no more Oklahoma City outside

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Speaker 1: of Paul George can't shoot and something's wrong with Russell Westbrook.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the Lakers went healthy. Aren't the

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Speaker 1: second best team in the West, but they don't have

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Speaker 1: enough shooting. They can go, they can guard, really really guard,

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Speaker 1: but don't have enough shooting. Utah, I mean Utah, Denver,

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Speaker 1: they're not ready yet. Denver's fun. Denver will be hard

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Speaker 1: to play against because you're playing an altitude and because, uh,

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Speaker 1: their center is like they're like a point guard in

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Speaker 1: terms of his ability to pass, and they spread you

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Speaker 1: all out and they're fun. But they're not being the

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Speaker 1: Warriors in the playoffs. Portland's come back down to earth,

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Speaker 1: but they're still fun. I just I don't think the

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Speaker 1: Warriors are as good as they've been. I think whether

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Speaker 1: Toronto or Boston coming out of the East and Boston

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Speaker 1: having trouble kind of a uh, you know, adjusting to

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Speaker 1: new roles. But I don't I'm not convinced the Warriors

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Speaker 1: are better than they were last year. The only difference

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Speaker 1: is the West probably isn't as good as it was

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Speaker 1: last year. Let me take a minute to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about robin Hood. Robin Hood you heard of it? No,

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Speaker 1: at Doug one dot robin hood dot com. It's doug

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Speaker 1: one dot robin hood dot com. Doug one dot robin

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Speaker 1: hood dot com. Let me introduce you to Kyle dot

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Speaker 1: Kyle Dot's a former point guard of mine. I coached me,

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Speaker 1: played for brill Into High School, played for my dad

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Speaker 1: and me in AU basketball. He was a freak athlete,

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Speaker 1: a five ft eleven white point guard from Orange County

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Speaker 1: who could win any dunk contest, jump to the moon,

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Speaker 1: the starting point guard as a freshman at Arizona State.

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Speaker 1: He's now Arizona States color analyst on radio, and he's

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Speaker 1: been doing it for years, so he knows the entire pack. Twelve.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's welcome in Kyle dot who was a superstar,

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Speaker 1: super freak athlete at Arizona State. Best player you've played

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Speaker 1: with with the Sun Doubles Eddie House probably hu close.

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Speaker 1: I played with Eddie my freshman year. He was a senior.

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Speaker 1: Um just unbelievable, scoring games. Just probably my easiest job

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Speaker 1: as a point guard. Just kind of ran the give

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Speaker 1: and go a lot. Give it to Eddie and go

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Speaker 1: the heck away and get out of his play Yau was,

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Speaker 1: you know, phenomenal. He was a freshman when I was

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Speaker 1: a senior, and definitely the best post player I played with.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's let's let's start with with Eddie.

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Speaker 1: You you were the point guard when he scored six.

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Speaker 1: You want a cow, right, Yeah, That's that's my claim

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Speaker 1: to fame. Me and Eddie combined for sixty four that night.

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Speaker 1: So what was it? Like? Just incredible? I mean it was.

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Speaker 1: It was one of those games. And I remember being

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Speaker 1: in the press conference after I played actually played pretty

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Speaker 1: well that game, and and I think the reporter from

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Speaker 1: the Bay Area had asked me, like, you know, you

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Speaker 1: guys really have a game encourt rapport and you guys

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Speaker 1: seem to be jelling. And I kind of looked at

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Speaker 1: the guy, which just dumbfounded, like, dude, it ain't that

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Speaker 1: hard what I did tonight, Like I literally through the

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Speaker 1: ball as as he was getting, you know, ready to see.

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Speaker 1: And the thing about Eddie was everybody talks about a

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Speaker 1: quick release, and you know you have a quick release.

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Speaker 1: What Eddie did is he had quick quick shot preparation.

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Speaker 1: He got his speech set so by the time that

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Speaker 1: ball hit his hands, it was he was in the

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Speaker 1: air almost like Steph duns you know right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was a talker to like I. I talked with

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Speaker 1: him at the game I broadcast last night. I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: remember when we played you, it was early on your career.

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Speaker 1: You got to fight with somebody like on the sidelinees like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that should happen all the time, Like he didn't.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's a it's a different it's a different deal,

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Speaker 1: which I'm cool with. Like we I would get into

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Speaker 1: arguments with my guys all the time. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how like civilians kind of handled that. But he was

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Speaker 1: he would talk a little bit. Oh absolutely no, he

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Speaker 1: he talked more than anybody I ever played with. The

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Speaker 1: played against my favorite stories. We had gone eleven straight

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Speaker 1: years without beating E. C. L A. And she had

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Speaker 1: to beat him at twenty two straight games. We were

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Speaker 1: playing him at home. It was Eddie's last chance to

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Speaker 1: get him. We were up I think in the paper

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Speaker 1: the day before Matt Barns and said, yeah, we've heard

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Speaker 1: him out a scoring game. I've heard about it, but

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you he has to go forty even out

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Speaker 1: of chance, and we blitched him. We were up thirty

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Speaker 1: with like you know, five minutes into the second half

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Speaker 1: and about six month stuff to go. In the game,

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Speaker 1: Eddie has thirty seven, gets foult on the three, goes

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Speaker 1: to the line and right before he shoots his first

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Speaker 1: free to like he looks at Matt find and he

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Speaker 1: goes thirty eight makes it, looks at him again, thirty

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Speaker 1: nine makes it, and then he just says, forty makes

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Speaker 1: the free throw, checks himself out of the game, looks

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Speaker 1: at our coach. Coach Evans just says, give me out,

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Speaker 1: and he says, get these dudes off my floor. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I'm a freshman playing in

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Speaker 1: the Pac ten for the first time, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I yaga was he could he guard different positions because

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Speaker 1: it feels like he was like undersized, no neck, but

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Speaker 1: long arms would be like a four or five combo.

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Speaker 1: Now almost feel like he might have been born before

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Speaker 1: his time. Yeah, I like, um, you know, he was

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Speaker 1: just raw. I mean he was he was really really talented.

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Speaker 1: But you know, he struggled a little bit to like

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Speaker 1: remember playing raise. Um, you know he says an assignments

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Speaker 1: and stuff, but just natural rob build. I mean he yeah,

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Speaker 1: he probably fits a little it better right now in

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Speaker 1: today's game. I mean, dude, it's still getting it done

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Speaker 1: playing you know, I'm a nig national team and but

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Speaker 1: he could step out and shoot it. And the guy

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Speaker 1: had the biggest hands I've ever seen. I mean I

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Speaker 1: was a g A the next year after I got

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Speaker 1: done playing, and one of my favorite things to do

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Speaker 1: was just run post drills because I mean I would

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Speaker 1: throw the ball as hard as I could on a

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Speaker 1: post entry pass just to watch him, you know, snack

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Speaker 1: it with one hand. It was it was really good good.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've been stilled and super good kid. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was just extremely educated and you know growing up

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Speaker 1: his parents were I think both doctors and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: really really good kid and smart kids. All right. Last thing,

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Speaker 1: why is the pack fell so bad this year? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I just think, you know, so many, so

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Speaker 1: many teams have uh have lost you know guys. I

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Speaker 1: mean you let I talk to your brother last night

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Speaker 1: actually before the game, and you know, you look around

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Speaker 1: and nobody has, you know, veteran players anymore. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's why we had a little bit of success

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Speaker 1: early last year. And if you do it because we

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Speaker 1: had the senior guys and you just don't see that anymore.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look around the league and there's there's nobody

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Speaker 1: in the league that really has players that have been

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Speaker 1: on the roster for two or three years. It's all

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Speaker 1: guys that are either transfers or you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some talent um, you know, you see I obviously

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Speaker 1: was season I mean, do I see, Yeah, I bought

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Speaker 1: it some funding Washington, and but I just think it's, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just the kind of a combination of guys being

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Speaker 1: in and out, coaches being in and out, and that's tough.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's uh, it's I've never really seen it

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Speaker 1: like this since I've been around it for the you know,

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Speaker 1: twenty plus years. My my, my, we we gotta run.

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Speaker 1: But my hypotheses is this one Arizona u c l

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Speaker 1: A being down hurts the overall image of the league.

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Speaker 1: But the teams that usually went on talent in the league,

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Speaker 1: right Cal, the worst they've been in a long time,

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Speaker 1: right Cal, massively down. Arizona had to kind of re

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Speaker 1: re you hit, rebooting the whole program and U c

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Speaker 1: l A firing their coach. Like those three teams, as

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Speaker 1: well as USC and Arizona State are always kind of

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Speaker 1: up and down programs, but those two, you know, those

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Speaker 1: three are usually talent rich programs and two of them, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, complete refresh jobs. And then U c l

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Speaker 1: A just a mishmash where they fired and they don't

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Speaker 1: have enough guards. That's that's the other part. Did good

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Speaker 1: catching up. Appreciate you joining us. Now let's talk with

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Speaker 1: with Kelvin Samson. Kelvin, of course, just won his six

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Speaker 1: hundred game as head coach at Oklahoma and he's had

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Speaker 1: a marvelous career, including leading Oklahoma to the Final Four

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Speaker 1: where they lost. Remember when, uh, when I want them

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Speaker 1: when team clevesd sprained his ankle right, Um, the great

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Speaker 1: Hollis Price was his point guard. That was an incredible team.

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Speaker 1: We had seven battles. I think we played them seven

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Speaker 1: times when I was at Oklahoma State, and I think

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Speaker 1: we were four and three against him. They swept us

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Speaker 1: my junior year. He beat us my un senior night

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Speaker 1: at at our place. He I believe a terrific coach. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the n c A stuff has distracted people from um,

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Speaker 1: how hard his teams play and how well his teams play.

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Speaker 1: And then last to your course, Houston miss free throws.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise they beat Michigan in the second round of the

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Speaker 1: tournament and Michigan doesn't go on to a national championship game.

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Speaker 1: Let's welcome in the head coach of the Houston Cougars

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Speaker 1: Kelvin Sampson, UH coach, Like, I know that everybody talks

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Speaker 1: about your team now, and maybe I want to get

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Speaker 1: into last year and how incredible you guys played against

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Speaker 1: Michigan and kind of how we you know, the pain

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Speaker 1: of the tournament is we don't talk about teams that

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Speaker 1: maybe outperform others because of the result. But I want

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Speaker 1: to let's go back. Okay, your upbringing is different than

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Speaker 1: any other coach in college basketball. Fair, Um, it is unique.

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Speaker 1: You can't take a pause there, You're like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of anyone else who's who's I'm like,

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Speaker 1: did I read this story correctly? That your your dad

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Speaker 1: was part of a group of Native Americans that kind

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Speaker 1: of kind of chase the clue klutz Klan out of

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Speaker 1: where you grew up, right right right the they just

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Speaker 1: had the I think the fiftieth year or sixtieth year

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Speaker 1: anniversary of that. But that was that was part of

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Speaker 1: the lore of our community growing up. Uh. We were

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Speaker 1: right in the middle of Clan country. I mean, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure nobody wants to hear my stories, but but

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Speaker 1: I I remember I did remember, Um, some ku klutz

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Speaker 1: Klan experiences, and we knew what we knew what it was,

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Speaker 1: and we knew we're we're not to go. Let's say that. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, to give me a share any likes.

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Speaker 1: I mean of the most painful ones, but I mean that. Okay.

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Speaker 1: See you're in Deep Branch, right, which is in North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: So Pembroke was Pembroke was where I was born and raised,

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Speaker 1: Douglas and southeastern North Carolina. Um, but the place where

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Speaker 1: the Ku Klux clan rally was maxed in, which is

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Speaker 1: about nine or ten miles away, and there there's always

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Speaker 1: threats um of them, of their activity, and they were

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Speaker 1: going to go and you know that everybody knows what

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Speaker 1: the clan is. But there's there's nothing, there's nothing positive

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Speaker 1: to come out of those experiences, dragging people out of

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Speaker 1: houses and beating them up, sending messages. Uh. They really

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Speaker 1: really disliked any kind of mixed marriage, so they would

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Speaker 1: target families and m send their messages and and any

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Speaker 1: time they had a rally, you know, the next thing

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Speaker 1: you know, they were letting somebody's door down, dragging people

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Speaker 1: out of the house. Uh. This is back in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: This is every time I every time we have Martin

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Speaker 1: Luther King Day, I always think back to UM. But

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Speaker 1: my father, my father was a was inducted into North

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Speaker 1: Carolina High School UM Coaches Hall of Fame, but he

390
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: coached in segregation from nineteen fifty five up until nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty eight, I think was when segregation, uh, desegregation came

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Speaker 1: to his to the area he coached in UM. So

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Speaker 1: that that was that was unique. But you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're living in that time, uh, it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: unique to you. It's it's just the way it was,

396
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: you know. UM. I remember going to the North Carolina

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Speaker 1: High School Coaches Association clinic, which was a big bill

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Speaker 1: for high school coaches in that state. Was always in Greensboro,

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Speaker 1: North Carolina. And so in nineteen sixty five, I would

400
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Speaker 1: have been ten years old, and I remember going to

401
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Speaker 1: the clinics and all the minority coaches sat in one

402
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Speaker 1: area and all the white coaches that in another area. UM,

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Speaker 1: if you're a black coach or a minority coach in

404
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Speaker 1: North Chilina at that time, that's just the way it was.

405
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Speaker 1: You know, Black kids played against black kids, white kids

406
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: played against white kids. Native American kids played against Native

407
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Speaker 1: American kids. Um. Um, but that was that was normal. Um.

408
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Speaker 1: So but you know, you you have those memories and

409
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: you know you're just so accreative. How far we've come,

410
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 1: and I still think we have a long way to go.

411
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 1: So you play at UNC Penbroke, and then you decide,

412
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Speaker 1: did you pick Michigan State to learn under under Judd

413
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 1: or did you pick Michigan State for a different reason.

414
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: You know, I took the g R E. Um. I

415
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: wanted to go to grad school. I wasn't sure where

416
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Speaker 1: I was gonna go. Uh. By being a minority, by

417
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Speaker 1: being a minority student, and I got to take the

418
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: g R E for free, That's why I took it. Um.

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Speaker 1: My my twin sister there was in pharmacy school at

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Speaker 1: the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and she

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Speaker 1: told me about it, and uh, and I had some

422
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Speaker 1: friends that UM high school buddy of mine played baseball

423
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Speaker 1: at North Carolina, so I went and stay with him

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Speaker 1: that weekend. Um. We had I was planning on the

425
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: baseball team too. We had a rain out, so I

426
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: went up there and took took the g R E.

427
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: And if you score a certain number, I have no

428
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: idea what I scored, but I I scored high enough

429
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 1: to get put in this thing called a minority locator code.

430
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: Because everybody back then was recruiting diversity. So I started

431
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: getting these letters from all these different schools offering um

432
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: financial assistance to come to school. And that that particular spring,

433
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: Michigan State University was playing Kentucky. I think Kentucky had

434
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: Kyle Macy. Um. I could be wrong, but I think

435
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: I'm right. Um. And I just remember the six nine

436
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: point guard from Michigan State. He was a freshman. He

437
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: had a big old puffball a row and he was

438
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: just taking that ball down the court, looking one way,

439
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: flipping at the other, and it was Magic Johnson. I

440
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: was sitting there with my dad and I said, he

441
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: pat that point guard six foot nine, Dad, I mean,

442
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: holy smokes, and there was you just never saw that

443
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: and lo and behold. Within a week or two, I

444
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: got I got a letter from Michigan State and the

445
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: the guy's name on the letter was Dr. Gail Michaels

446
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: and Mike K. E. L s Dr Gail Michaels. And

447
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 1: he had a number, so I called. I called the

448
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: number on the letter. Uh knowing he had no idea

449
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: who I was. He said, just some kid from North

450
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,719
Speaker 1: Carolina that we send this form letter two. He probably

451
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: thinks it's a personal letter. But that guy was so

452
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: nice and so professional, and that's how I wind up

453
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: at Michigan State. How did you what was your first

454
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: interaction with Judd? Like, did did your dad call to

455
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: to talk to him to? No? No, My interaction with

456
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 1: Judd was was really bad. Um. I was nervous. I

457
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: was intimidated by him. Uh. You could also had scared

458
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: scared to death in there too. Um. You know I

459
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: didn't know anybody when I went there. I just so

460
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: the wait, wait, wait, wait, take take me back, take

461
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 1: him back before you get there. How did you do

462
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: you remember how you got from North Carolina Michigan State.

463
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: I mean right, this is late seventies, Like, is this

464
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: bus is his plane? Is? I had an old I

465
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: had a rack top jeep and my twin sister went

466
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: with me. Um. I think she flew back, but she

467
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: went with me because I had I was holding a

468
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: little U haul Uh, one of those little small U

469
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: haul trailers you just pulled on the back on the

470
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: back of the jeep. UM going through those mountains in

471
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: West Virginia. I was really concerned about making it. Um.

472
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: But once once we once we got there, you know,

473
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: he's just it's a new play, new people, it's a

474
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 1: new experience. UM. But I looked at it as an

475
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 1: adventure as as most as twenty two years old, you know.

476
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: And I and um you know what really helped me.

477
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: As I was standing the uh dorm Owen Graduate Hall

478
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: with a bunch of graduate students, there was a basketball court,

479
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: um right outside the dorm. And so once I got settled, UM,

480
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: I just went over there and got in the game.

481
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: And I made friends with this guy named Bob Thompson

482
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: who wind up being in my wedding. Um from Bob

483
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: was from frost Farms, um. Um, Michigan really good basketball player,

484
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: played golf at Valparaiso, was getting his NBA from Michigan State,

485
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: and he and I hit it off and he became

486
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: my my basketball buddy. So we go out and play

487
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: hoop every day until it got too cold. But um,

488
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: I made my way over to the basketball office. I

489
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: was teaching three classes and I was taking fifteen credits.

490
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: I was gonna try to get my master's done in

491
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: one year. And so I made my home to the

492
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: basketball office and the assistant coaches was Dave Harshman, um

493
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 1: Bill Berry and uh no, Dave Harshman, Edgar Wilson and

494
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: uh Um. Then you only had two assistants, you know,

495
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: you had restricted earnings or part times what they were

496
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 1: called in right and and uh I just introduced myself

497
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: to him and told him as a grand assistant and

498
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: and that's him. Was or any volunteer positions open? And

499
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: they just kind of laughed at me. I probably had.

500
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: I was probably the fifties kid that had walked in

501
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: the office that day. And so I went back to

502
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: another time and the secretary's name was Lori and she

503
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: she was a sweetheart. She was really nice to me.

504
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: She said, well, what I would recommend is that you

505
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: go in and talk to Judge. So um, okay, So

506
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: I set up an appointment and I walked in the

507
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: Judd's office Doug, and he goes, uh, what do you want?

508
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: You know, my confidence level I finally got my nerve

509
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: up to do it. My confidence level just fell to

510
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: the ground. I said, well, Um. I played college basketball

511
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: at Pembroke State University, which is now UNC Pembroke, and

512
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: I was wondering if there's something I could do to

513
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: to help out with the basketball team. He looked, he

514
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: looked me in the eye, and he's said, no, not now,

515
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: Judd for people, For people who don't know jud Heathcote

516
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: first of all ridiculously funny, but also ridiculously ridiculously like

517
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: like stand up comedian level funny, but also dirty as

518
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: can be and incredibly sarcastic. So was he being honest

519
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: or was he being sarcastic? Honest, he was being honest,

520
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: and um so I said, Okay, I gotta come up

521
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: with a different game plan. So I started going over

522
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: in the afternoon's um UM I teach classes during the morning,

523
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: and the afternoon I studied, and then at a lot

524
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 1: of the graduate classes was at night. But I had

525
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: a block in the afternoon that that I could go

526
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: over to the basketball office and and one of the

527
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: assistants um I started. I formed a relationship with him,

528
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: Dave Harshman, who later became my assistant at Washington State UM.

529
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: But Dave was really nice to me. I said, is

530
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: there you guys have extra work that that I could

531
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: help you with? And so he pulled a chair by

532
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: his death and just you know, stuffed envelopes. Um, just

533
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: this secretarial stuff really and then he said, uh, have

534
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: you talked to Judd? I said yeah. He said how

535
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: did it go? I said not very good. He said,

536
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: well you might have called him on a bad day.

537
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: A long story short. I go in a second time

538
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: and he actually talked to me and I told him

539
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: about my father been a high school coach. He liked

540
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: that because Judge, Judge, you know, was a high school

541
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: coach for fourteen years and Spokane. So um, Buddy said, no,

542
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: there's there's nothing. We don't have anything. Um. And then

543
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: I found out he had a JV team. And so

544
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: the third time was the charm Doug. I went in

545
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: and said, Judge, is there any way I should be

546
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: an assistant or or help out with the JV team

547
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: because the the restrict of earnings. The guy was named

548
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: Fed Paulson and Fred was the head coach for the

549
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: JV team. And Judge said, well, why don't you go

550
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: talk to friend that Fred says it's okay, and it's

551
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: okay with me, and and that's how I became a

552
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: grad assistant in Michigan State. What was he like as

553
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: a coach? What what what do you take like? If

554
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: you everyone knows how funny he was, but you won

555
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: a national championship, they're an incredible program. What about his

556
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: coaching was unique? Um? Jed had the most incredible memory.

557
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: He put a lot of pressure on the assistant coaches.

558
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: You better know first and last name. You better know

559
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: their jersey number. Uh. You better have their their height

560
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: and weight accurate. You better have their play their tendencies

561
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: if they were right handed and went left, a left

562
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: handed and went right. Um, he knew everything about every

563
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: single player. That that really resonated with me. He was

564
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: so smart with scouting reports. Um, he knew how to

565
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: take away your strength. I remember we played Perdue one

566
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: year with the Joe Barry Carroll and Judd knew how

567
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: to you know, he played a two or three matchups

568
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: own Terry, Donnelly and Mike Berkovic was upfront, Greg Kelser,

569
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Jay Vincent and Irvin was on the back. Um. And

570
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: then we had this guy come up the bench named

571
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: Bobo Run. Bobo Charles six seven or eight had about

572
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: a seven two wingspan. But Judge Judd knew how to

573
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: take a man and a half and a man and

574
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: a half and assign it to the player that he

575
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 1: wanted to limit. Um. And he did the same thing

576
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: with Larry Birds in the National Championship game. But just

577
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: just his intelligence. Uh, the smartest coach I think I've

578
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: ever I've ever seen. He was so smart and he

579
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: was since he humor, um, he should be so sarcastic

580
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: and tough and practice and say one thing and cracked

581
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: the whole crack up. Everybody coaches players. But there was

582
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: such a respect for him. Um. And when he got

583
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: out of coaching, you know, I think Tom you know,

584
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: he his exit from Michigan State was what everybody should do.

585
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: And he'd build a house in Spokane at Manitoud Country Club,

586
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: And when he retired, he moved right to Spokane. He

587
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: didn't want to be around to have a you know,

588
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: a shadow over tome, which I thought was real professional

589
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: and classy. Um. But you know, I could always count

590
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: on calls from Judd. You know, he'd call and say, hey,

591
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: tell you know, he's not He wasn't one of those

592
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: guys that would um um like like a lot of

593
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: small talk. After my first year at Montana Tech, the

594
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: team I inherited the year before I got there, they

595
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: were five and twenty two. My first year we were

596
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: four and twenty three. So Jed calls me up six

597
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. Uh, does this is true? Story?

598
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: He tell Judge. Here, I just wanted to let you

599
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: know that you're the only coach in captivity that possibly

600
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: could have taken Montana Tech from oblivion to obscurity. Gotta

601
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: go kill I want to get to I want to

602
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: get to mont Take in a second. You mentioned the

603
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: National Championship game. Of course, it's the game that changed

604
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: college basketball forever. It was like, well, I was a

605
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: grad assist, and obviously I didn't get to travel, but

606
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: I was there for all the practices um, and I

607
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: was there when they got back. Grad assistant under Judge

608
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: Doug was probabably right under the senior manager. You know,

609
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: I was really good at Back then they didn't have

610
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: whiteboards at chalk boards, so I was really good at

611
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: erasing the chalk boards, making sure Judd had chalk um.

612
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Sometimes I would take assistant cause and get them cleaned out,

613
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: wash them and vacuum him. And that's the stuff. Did

614
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, pick up towels um when they get back

615
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: from road trips. Sometimes I don't meet the managers and

616
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: help them. Uh, you just did that stuff. But the

617
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: value was just being there and absorbing and learning. Um,

618
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, and I was. I was actually kid mc candy,

619
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: So I learned from everybody. You know, he had. Jed

620
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: always had great assistance as coaches. Meetings were legendary. Um,

621
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: the practices were so intense. Um. But Judd was so serious. Um.

622
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: You know, I run my basketball camp today exactly the

623
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: way Jed ran his basketball camps at Michigan State. He

624
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: did bed check every night on every kid. He had

625
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: three role calls a day. He did every roll call. Uh.

626
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: He never missed a minute while he was go to

627
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: those gems. And if those referees weren't running back and forth,

628
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: he'd stopped the game and lecture the referees. He was,

629
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: he was the most. I loved him. I mean I

630
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: loved Judd. I love getting his calls and um, last

631
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: three or four years of his life, I tried to

632
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: call him once or twice a month, and I think

633
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: he appreciated those calls. And he had so many had

634
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: so many guys in his tree. We just played South

635
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: Florida Saturday and then me and Brian Gregory before the game,

636
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about Jed um Magic. For for somebody

637
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: who got to see Magic Johnson at that stage in

638
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: his life, what was he like? Partice working practice player

639
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: I've ever seen? Don Uh. Magic had a health class

640
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: that got over about one o'clock. I just didn't start

641
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: till three. Remember the old toss backs mhm, you know

642
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: those mats that you threw to and to throw you back.

643
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: Magic would those toss backs and set him up around

644
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: the gym. You know, he'd had his three practice jersey

645
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: um over on the side and he would work out

646
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: just in an old gray T shirt and he would

647
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: by the time everybody got to the gym for practice,

648
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: Magic t shirt would be soaking wet. But his favorite

649
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: drill and my favorite drill I got from Judd, was

650
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: forumed for cutthroats, and Jed would use cutthroats to teach

651
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 1: certain parts of the game where it was post entry,

652
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: uh cuts off the post ball screens, ball screen defense,

653
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: whatever he was working on. But he would always give

654
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: Magic the walk ons and he never lost you. Garry

655
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: Keelson was the ninth pick I think by the Detroit Pistons.

656
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: J was in the first round picked by Dallas. But

657
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: Magic never lost a cutthrow game. He would make sure

658
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: his team would win. I mean he would get owned

659
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: his guys if they weren't playing hard enough. He was

660
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: the ultimate winner. He used to when he played the

661
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: u c L. A men's him though. He used to

662
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: call the worst fouls ever, and it was like, Wow,

663
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: that's Magic. Yeah, that's that's part of part of why

664
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: he never lost. You. You you mentioned in Montana Tech,

665
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: you show up there a team and won five games,

666
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: and you mentioned but like, listen, your dad was a

667
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: coach you played. You're learning is a g A under

668
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: under one of the all time great legends. You show

669
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: up there, Um, what was it? What was your first

670
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: head coaching experience? Like, well, let's go back. Um, that

671
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: summer would have been the summer of uh tom Azo

672
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: and I were two missioners and Judge basketball camp. Tom

673
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: was Division two guys from Iron Mountain, Michigan, and you know,

674
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: I got to know you he I think Tom might

675
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: have been a year or two older than I was.

676
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: But um, we're just working camp and Judge called me

677
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: in one day and said hey, because I couldn't get

678
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: a job and I was finished my Masters and I

679
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: was actually getting raised to had a fellowship to work

680
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: on my doctor it and so I went in and

681
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: talked to jud asked him what did what did he

682
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: think I could do? And by this time I could

683
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: tell that you know, um, you can tell when somebody

684
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: likes you. Judge liked me for some reason. I think

685
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: he felt sorry for me, to be honest with you,

686
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: uh did He said, well, what the hell are you

687
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: gonna do with a doctorate? What are you gonna do

688
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: with that? And he said, teach. You can teach without

689
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: a doctorate. So he said, why don't you go get

690
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: a high school job? Um, if you can't get a

691
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: college job, And that's the way Jed was and I was.

692
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: I was in the process of doing that, and then

693
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: one day at camp he came in and said, you

694
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: want to go to Montana. I knew where. I had

695
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: heard of Montana, but I didn't know where it was

696
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: as far as the map. I had to get a

697
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: map down, but I restrainted earnings coach Fred Paulson, who

698
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: was an excellent, excellent coach, got the head job at

699
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: Montana Tech, and he asked me to go with him

700
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: as his assistant. So I was twenty three years old.

701
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: My my, uh, I think I turned twenty four that October.

702
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: So this was an artist we got there. Fred ran

703
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: into some personal problems and that this the school had

704
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: never had a winning program. Uh uh, Doug, it was

705
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: a bad, hard job, bad job. As an engineering college.

706
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: Every degree curriculum required a minimum of thirty credit as

707
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: the math. So you can see right away it's a

708
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: tough job. Tough job that recruit too. So jet Fred

709
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: left in December. The a d who was about seventy

710
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: eight years old, it was part time, told me in

711
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: and said, um, you want to you want to finish

712
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: the year out. I didn't have any other options. Actually,

713
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: I was a playing for a junior college job. Jet

714
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: Colin told me about a junior college job at high

715
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: school Indian Junior College in Lawrence, Kansas. And I was

716
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 1: and I was talking to them about that. Um Um,

717
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: Kerry and I we didn't have um any kids yet,

718
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: so you know, we we were very mobile, we could move.

719
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: So I was thinking about in the Lawrence, Kansas and

720
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: then this thing popped open and so I stayed and

721
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: finished the year and um, and that was a tough year,

722
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, it was we went four and twenty three.

723
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: That was That was tough, But I had great kids.

724
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: I still keep in touch with some of those guys.

725
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: One of those guys owns his own oil and gas

726
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: company over in San Antonio, so he's actually come to

727
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: some games at the University of Houston. How did you

728
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: turn around? Well, I didn't know how to recruit. I've

729
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: never recruited before, and that Montena, Texas. Everything's on the phone,

730
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: you know. He just I just got all these recruiting services. Um,

731
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: and I got left. He on some kids, My best

732
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: players I signed two weeks before classes start. Um, kids

733
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: that had fallen through the cracks. Um, I got it.

734
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: The vice president at Montena Tech played college basketball Kroll College.

735
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: My first year at Montana Tech, the best basketball playing

736
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: in our conference was Bobby Petrino, who was to coach

737
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: at Louisville. He was a player. He was the player

738
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: of the year in football and he was the player

739
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: of the year in basketball. He could really play. Doug

740
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: Um great shooter, tough. Um. I mean, he was a

741
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: great competitor, but he should really play basketball. Um. We

742
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: just got a bunch of kids and just played hard.

743
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: We shared the ball, We played hard. You know, our

744
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: games were in the fifties. We couldn't score very good.

745
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: So he was said, when you guys play slow, No,

746
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: we just can't score. That's the difference, you know. It's

747
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: what's interesting. Is what's interesting is you had such incredible

748
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: success at Wazoo and at what Washington State was a

749
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 1: lot like Oklahoma is a lot like Houston now where

750
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: guys that Mountain people missed on or for whatever reason,

751
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: they weren't when you got to go into Oklahoma. I mean,

752
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: Hollis Price obviously was a very highly tied recruit um

753
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: and in Indiana even you were getting highly tired recruits.

754
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: But it feels like kind of like you as a coach,

755
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: you you have more success or maybe I don't know,

756
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: you enjoy it more with the guys that have been

757
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: told no are the guys that slipped through the cracks,

758
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: even going back to Montana Tech. Is that a fair

759
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: assessment to make of a six career and that you've

760
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: had a remarkable amount of success and maybe the most

761
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: success with guys that other people missed on the early

762
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: years for sure. Um, when when I left Washington State,

763
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: I thought we were right there in Arizona and US

764
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: to l A. That last assa Fontaine went on to

765
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: be a two thousand points score. I had him as

766
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: a freshman. Uh Nate Irman, who got drafted by Utah

767
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: was a freshman. Mark Henderson had got drafted by Philadelphia

768
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: seventy six, was a sophomore. Then I had two other

769
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: kids coming in. We we were going to be That's

770
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: why I was so reluctant to leave Washington State to

771
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: go to Oklahoma because I thought we had a chance

772
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: to win the Pac ten. But I had really really

773
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: good players. But to start our first couple of years, uh,

774
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: you're you're dead on. We we had to find kids

775
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: that just would lay some up and just flat out

776
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: get after you. And that that became the identity of

777
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: our programs. Last thing to go from where you started

778
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: to now a six coach, a guy who's been to

779
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: a Final four, and look that the you know, we

780
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: don't have time and nor does it is it worth

781
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: it with the negative energy about the the n c

782
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: A stuff. But how do you want when when people

783
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: say Kelvin Sampson six hundred wind coach, what do you

784
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: want people to say about you as a coach and

785
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: about your programs? I think the you know, the people

786
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: that know you the best is the your players. UM.

787
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: The people that don't know you are the ones that

788
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: have the most opinions, So they're based on their opinion

789
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: on what somebody else said, and what somebody else said

790
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: is not always accurate. UM, you know that as well

791
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: as I do. UM. I think the thing that UM,

792
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: I would want to be remembered for was that I

793
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: always had my players backs h that I supported them,

794
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: that I that I got my greatest I got my

795
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: greatest satisfaction out of seeing their success. Just send them

796
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: improve just working with them on a couple of things

797
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: and see him take that thing and become better. UM.

798
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: And then hearing from him, UM, getting wedding wedding invitations,

799
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: tell them about then a new baby, I got a

800
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: new house, I got a new job, and I get

801
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: those calls every day. I mean I mean literally, uh

802
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: four or five times a week, probably because you know,

803
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: when you coach with so many different schools, you you

804
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: have so many former players, and hearing from them is

805
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: what I enjoyed the most. The wins and losses. You know,

806
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: if you win, your good coach. If you lose, let's

807
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: go get another one. I get that. That's our that's

808
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: our profession. You know, somebody said you're a bad guy,

809
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: therefore you're a bad guy. I get that too. Um.

810
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: But I've always dedicated myself to my players, helping them,

811
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: um and that, and I think that's what I would

812
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: want to be known for. I will tell you this

813
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: and again, I know your your time is is crunched.

814
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: When we played against you, guys, and I told you

815
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: this when you were Indiana, we always hated that matchup

816
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: zone because we could never seem to figure it out.

817
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: Your team's screened better than any team I've ever applied,

818
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: never played against a team that screened as well. I

819
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: literally meet like body to body contact and and they

820
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: just and they just competed. And that's where we didn't

821
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: like you. But it was a rivalry to which we

822
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: actually respected you guys, because we felt like our team,

823
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: our players, were better, and yet we could never wasn't

824
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: we we could we split like every every series you

825
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: swept us one year, we swept you one year, but

826
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: it always felt like we were like, we have better players,

827
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: why don't we beat them more? But it's because your

828
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: teams played so hard and so cohesively and I just

829
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinting about how that's built. Yeah, I think, Um,

830
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: if you don't have great players and you've got to

831
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: find something to be great, and you know it's like cutting,

832
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 1: that's something that UM Like I was. I spent thirty

833
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: minutes as to him practice on on on accelerating through

834
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: your cuts, just like jump stopping in the ball screens. Um,

835
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: there's just little things makes such a big difference. I

836
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: read a quote from Martin Luther team that that talks about, Um,

837
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, dreams are big, and you know small things

838
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: is what small things is what makes such a big

839
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: difference in somebody's life. That and that was so a

840
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: proposed I think to the way we try to coach

841
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: our team here UH and and all our teams. But

842
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: I remember those Oklahoma State UH games. I had a

843
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: chance where we went back and played this year. I

844
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: had a chance to see UH coach Sutton and and

845
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: I told my I told my wife, I said, you

846
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: know what, Karen Uh. You know, as a coach, Doug,

847
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: when you're coaching the game, you don't always feel the

848
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: other coach. I always felt Eddie. I always thought he

849
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: was the best coach that I ever coached against because

850
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: of the way he prepared his teams. Um, he was

851
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: he taught me a lot. I mean, I know I've

852
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: said this before, but no, I was thirty seven years

853
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: old and I was coming into a great conference and

854
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: when your biggest rival has a Hall of Famer and

855
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: a legend down there, Uh, I watched. I watched Eddie's teams,

856
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, and I I learned. I learned a lot

857
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 1: from him. When I was at Washington State, I learned

858
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: a lot from Ralph Miller. He was the coach of

859
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Oregon State when I got there. Those two guys taught

860
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: me a lot. Jud heathcoach, Ralph Miller, and Eddie Sutton.

861
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 1: Those those are three great, great coaches to learn from,

862
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: and I learned a lot from all three albums. Well,

863
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: congratulations on the success on the six hundred wins. Here's

864
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: the six hundred more. Thanks so much for your time. Okay, dous,

865
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: thanks for having me on. All right, let's turn to

866
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: college basketball kind of quickly here, and um, I did

867
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: get a chance to see Michigan up close, and um,

868
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: just a kind of couple of quick thoughts on their roster. Obviously,

869
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: they're they're built more to play great defense than they

870
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: are offense. Once Xavier Simpson became their point guard, it

871
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: changed them forever. Now he put you know, Xavier Simpson

872
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: and Charles Matthews and Jordan Pool in the backcourt. And

873
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: John Tesky is a really good rim protector. He's averaging

874
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: like two and a half blocks a game. And bros

875
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: Dakis is not a bad defender as a freshman man.

876
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: He's a big, physical body. But if he's your worst

877
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: defender on the floor, like and you have really well

878
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: coached like, that's a good defense of team um. And

879
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: then you also have Livers and you know they're using

880
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: Eli Brooks a little bit, so you get a little

881
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: bit more of a scoring point point guard. I thought

882
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: Austin Davis did a decent job against Wisconsin. What what's

883
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: what's interesting? Look, bros Dakis is a guy who eventually

884
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: who eventually we'll probably will be an NBA player. I

885
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: don't think it'll be this year. I think it'll be

886
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: next year. But he's big enough to be one of

887
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: these hybrid guys. He's pretty athletic, he's six seven to fifteen.

888
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: Gotta be a little bit better shooter. I gotta understand

889
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: shots like a little more. He and Jordan Pool are fantastic.

890
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: You know, like people are onto Jordan Pool because, um,

891
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 1: he shot so much against Wisconsin Bros. Dakas was in valid,

892
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: Trouble was kind of a no show. And you know,

893
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: Simpson made some shots and made some plays, but he's

894
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: not a score. They just I'm not convinced they have

895
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: enough scoring. Matthews is a really good kind of mid

896
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: range pull up guy, but he he's not a pure score.

897
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: Let's get fascinating to see the transformation of John b

898
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: Line his team from being like unguardable in terms of

899
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: their offense, their movement, they're spacing, to being one that

900
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: has to generate offense off of their defense. And they

901
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: turned the ball over a bunch against Wisconsin. The one

902
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: thing about Davier Simpson which is interesting, and I experienced

903
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: a little bit of this when you get into college

904
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: and and team stopped guarding you, and then you make

905
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: shots and now they are guarding you, you'll lose your

906
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: finishing shots. He's never He's not a natural score in

907
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: any way. He's a great defensive player, great defensive player

908
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: and I mean just tougher than a two dollar steak.

909
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: But he has to learn now how to It's one

910
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: thing to learn to finish. It's another thing to learn

911
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: to finish when guys might be playing a little defense

912
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: on your finishing shots. It's one thing to learn to shoot.

913
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: He's reworked his shooting for him and he's shooting a

914
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: reasonable But now can you shoot when people are actually

915
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: guarding you? I still think Michigan State is the best

916
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: team in the Big Ten. They just went out and

917
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: thought Maryland Cassius Winston is the best point guard. Three

918
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: best team, Maryland and Michigan and Michigan State have three

919
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: best point guards. Um, but I think Michigan State, who's

920
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: the best offense in the league and still pretty good defensively,

921
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: I think they're the best team. But but it's fascinating

922
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: to see this transformation of Michigan basketball right Fascinating to

923
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: see it go from an offensive juggernaut to one that

924
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: is really guarding people. And look, they didn't play well.

925
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: They turned the ball if I think, nineteen times against

926
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: Wisconsin and had a shot to win it. How a shot,

927
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: had a legit shot to win the game. Last thing

928
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: is UM watching North Carolina against Virginia Tech, and they

929
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: thought Virginia tech, and I know that there have been

930
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: times in which they haven't played well, but but the

931
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: emergence of Nassir Little and it's only one game, and

932
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: it's only one game where he hits two threes and

933
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: he only played twenty minutes, but twenty three points, six rebounds,

934
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: three assists in twenty minutes. If you watched him play

935
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: earlier in the year, where it felt like it didn't

936
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: matter how many minutes he played, he was gonna get

937
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: a shot up the first time he touched it. Where

938
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: he's hunting shots more, it's just it's it's really impressive

939
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: what Roy Williams has been able to do with him.

940
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: And I don't know if he's gotten him to buy

941
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: in or it's just patience or it's the kid learning

942
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: to have patients and improving as a perimeter shooter. But

943
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: he looks so much more comfortable within what they were

944
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: trying to do offensively, and like look, Luke made in

945
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: play poorly, but Luke may just does not have the

946
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: upside of it. I'm still fascinated to see all the

947
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: versatility the different lineups in North Carolina could use, and

948
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: their offense is much more open up than it was

949
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: early on at North Carolina under Roy Williams, and you

950
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: know they were run the same stuff they ran in Kansas,

951
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: but in terms of being a kind of closing horse,

952
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: and all the freshmen this year, Nasir Little is a

953
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: guy that is watched his tape. He's progressively getting closer

954
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: to what many of the high school recruiting analysts thought

955
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: he could be. And you know, playing the four obviously

956
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: is going to give him a massive mismatch Carol and

957
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 1: has been impressive with how they've improved here as of late.

958
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: Last thing here I want to share with you in

959
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 1: the pod is how and many of you are coaches

960
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: or players or whatever, and and we've talked before about

961
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: transferring and why, whether you're against or not. Jordan Tucker

962
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 1: transferred from Duke. He only played two games at Duke. Now,

963
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: had he stuck it out by the end of last

964
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: season when he transferred, he would have gotten minutes they

965
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: needed shooting off the bench, and they probably would have

966
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: had a better season. But he's he knew who was

967
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: coming in and it didn't think that he was going

968
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: to get the run, and so he transferred to Butler.

969
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: And when I talked to Leval, Jordan was like, look,

970
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,479
Speaker 1: the ball comes off his hand just better than everybody else.

971
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: But I I struggled to fine minutes for him, because

972
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, our three starting guards are just so much

973
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: better defensively. And then you know McDermott, who's my starting four.

974
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: Man's really a three, and he's better defensively. May not

975
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: be the shooter, but he's a very very good shooter

976
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: in his own right. Maybybe he's a better overall player.

977
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: And so I struggled to five minutes for him. And

978
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: this is where you kind of stick it out, and

979
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: it's a long season, and you buy in if you

980
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: know you're good enough, and eventually it'll turn your way.

981
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've paid attention to Butler, but

982
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 1: over the past two games they've played mc dermott and

983
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: Jordan Tucker together and and then it, you know, all

984
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: of a sudden, now, uh, Kamar Baldwin had thirty against St. John's.

985
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: They combined Tucker and Baldwin for for fifty four points

986
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: and they beat the Johnnies. Now that doesn't mean all

987
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: of their problems are solved. You know that relatively unathletic

988
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: at center um and they did just beat De Paul

989
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 1: but they beat De Paul by eighteen after trailing early

990
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: in that game, and they beat St. John's, who's probably

991
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: the most talented veteran team in the league. And now

992
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: they got Villanova coming up. At the time of which

993
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm recording this, I think they're gonna beat Villanova. Could

994
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: be dead wrong because they struggle at that four spot

995
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: guarding anybody and really rebounding, and that's where Villanova will

996
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: um with Eric Pascal, especially when he's playing the four,

997
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: will expose you. But it's just interesting to me on

998
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: how coaches come into the season thinking, you know what

999
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I We're gonna be a defensive minded

1000
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: team when to climb India defensively because we have you know,

1001
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: we have Aaron Thompson and Henry Badly uh to go

1002
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 1: along with Kamar Baldwin, and we'll have the best three

1003
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: guards defending the ball. The problem was can't score. They

1004
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: just can't score. And you know, at some point they

1005
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: do award championships or n c A tournaments and teams

1006
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: that have more points than the opponent, and a little

1007
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: bit of it is, hey, you know what, if you

1008
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: can make shots, they'll find a place for you. But

1009
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: Jordan Tucker is kind of quietly averaging ten and a

1010
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: half points a game in only nineteen and a half

1011
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: minutes a game, and his production continues to improve. Last

1012
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 1: three games all end ub a figures twelve nine four

1013
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: or I'll be interested to see what he does against Billanova.

1014
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: But I think Butler has figured out who they are.

1015
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: And sometimes it takes you to mid January. Sometimes it

1016
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: takes to February before you find that out. All right,

1017
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: that's it for All Ball again. I encourage you to

1018
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 1: listen to my radio show, which is daily three to

1019
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: six Eastern time, twelve to three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio,

1020
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: Fox Sports Radio dot Com or Serious XM. We're on

1021
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: to seventeen and two oh three, right to seventeen and

1022
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: two oh three. Check us out, um, make sure you

1023
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 1: tweet this out said it to your friend. We really

1024
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: appreciate you listening. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All

1025
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:34,439
Speaker 1: Ball