1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. On the morning of February two, twenty seventeen, 2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: William Christopher Gibbs had just finished his overnight shift as 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: a forklift operator to poultry processing plant and a small 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: town in North Georgia. It was technically eight am on 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: a Thursday morning, but he'd just gotten off work and 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: he wanted to relax and have a few beers with 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: a friend. Around noon, he got a phone call from 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: another friend who wanted to join them, but he needed 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: a ride. Gibbs agreed to drive down to the gas 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: station to pick him up, but he'd need to rearrange 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: some things in his car first. As he was cleaning 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: out the front seat of his car, he touched something wet. 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: A bottle he'd left on the floor of the passenger 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: side was leaking. He panicked. He spent four hours considering 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: his options before finally driving himself to the emergency room. 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: He had to tell the truth he was sick, and 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: if he wanted help, he'd have to tell them he'd 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: been making ricin. It looked like a slam dunk case, 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: But less than two weeks before his trial was set 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: to begin, a judge dismissed the indictment not for lack 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: of evidence. The case was solid, but at the eleventh hour, 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: his public defender made an incredible discovery. A clerical error 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: had accidentally legalized the possession of ricin, and no one 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: noticed for over a decade. I'm Molly Conger, and this 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: is weird Little Guys. The story of William Christopher Gibbs 26 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: and his bottle full of liquid risin isn't actually very long. 27 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: That was most of it, to be honest. But by 28 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: the time I realized how little meat there was to 29 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: the case, I'd already committed to a couple of interesting tangents. 30 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I wasted a whole day learning about ricin. 31 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: I can't just throw that away. And it does introduce 32 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: some new elements into the Weird Little Guy's extended universe. 33 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: We will eventually have to talk about the Church of 34 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: the Creator. That was part of what made this story 35 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: so sensational. Back in twenty seventeen, when this twenty seven 36 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: year old confessed to a nurse in rural Georgia that 37 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: he'd accidentally exposed himself to homemade ricin, he was wearing 38 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: a motorcycle jacket with a big patch on the chest 39 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: that marked him as a member of a group called 40 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: the Creativity Alliance. I doubt the nurse knew what it meant, 41 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: but I imagine she described it to the cop that she 42 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: immediately called about the bioweapon in the parking lot. The 43 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Church of the Creator doesn't actually exist anymore, not under 44 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: that name. The group William Christopher Gibbs had joined in 45 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: the months before his arrest is called the Creativity Alliance. 46 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: Depending on who you ask, it's either a successor to 47 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: or a schism from the original church. There are a 48 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: lot of almost identical sounding names in this story, so 49 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: I apologize in advance. In nineteen seventy three, Ben Clausen, 50 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: an aspiring politician in Florida and the inventor of the 51 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: wall mounted electric can opener, self published a book called 52 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: Nature's Eternal Religion. It would become the foundational text of 53 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: the weird new religion he'd just invented. He called it 54 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: the Church of the Creator, or just creativity, and religion 55 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: isn't the word I would use, but it's the one 56 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: they use. Just ask the Bureau of Prisons. They're constantly 57 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: fielding lawsuits from incarcerated neo Nazis who argue that their 58 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: religious liberties are being violated by prison policies that ban 59 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: their religious texts. Clausen would go on to write a 60 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: book called The White Man's Bible. They call the head 61 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: of the church haunt effects Maximus. They have commandments and 62 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: religious holidays. We've talked about racist religions before. There are 63 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: a couple of episodes that have touched on Christian identity, 64 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: a wildly racist and anti semitic spin on regular Christianity 65 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: that preaches that white Europeans are God's chosen people. But 66 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: this is something else, This is not like that at all. 67 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: They're both anti Semitic, obviously, and they revolve around the 68 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: superiority of white people, of course, but in creativity there 69 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: is no God, there are no deities at all, there's 70 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: no afterlife. It is, at its core, just an elaborate 71 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: way to be racist, and in a unique twist, in 72 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: addition to being anti Semitic, it's also quite explicitly anti Christian. 73 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: Their race is their religion, Their highest belief is the 74 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: superiority of the white man, and there is nothing above him. 75 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: I promise we'll explore this more another day. There's a 76 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: lot of weird lore here. Clausen wrote a number of books, 77 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: and they're all very boring. But Gibbs is far from 78 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: the first member of the Church of the Creator who 79 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: found himself under indictment, so we'll come back to it. 80 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: But that brings us to rahoa. It's a shortened form 81 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: of the phrase racial holy war. I've used the term 82 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: a few times on the show. It's a pretty common 83 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: refrain among guys who yearn for a white ethno state. 84 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: Years ago, before I rotted out my brain reading the 85 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: foundational texts of various Nazi groups, I just assumed that 86 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: rahoah was a modern term. It feels very online, very 87 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: mid twenty tens to me, and I see it all 88 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: the time in their online spaces, where it's mixed in 89 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: with nim speak that I recognize as twenty first century inventions. 90 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: But the word rahoah is actually older than I am. 91 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: It first appeared in a February nineteen eighty six issue 92 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: of Racial Loyalty, the Church of the Creator newsletter, and 93 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: you can tell Clausen wasn't sure the term was going 94 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: to catch on right away. The first announcement that he'd 95 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: invented a new word is brief, and it's sort of 96 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: buried on page five, and in this first announcement, Clausen says, 97 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: we need a word for our struggle against the other races, 98 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: something like jihad, but just for white people. And underneath 99 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: his announcement that he's come up with this fantastic new word, 100 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: he includes a pronunciation guide which he writes out as 101 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: ra haa. He wrote out r ah h h dash 102 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: aa that to me says rah and members of his 103 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: church must have read that the same way I did, 104 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: because a few months later he's revised this pronunciation guide 105 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: to read ra ho wah r a h h o wah, 106 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: which is clearer to me. That reads as rahah to me. 107 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: But later publications of those essays omit both of those 108 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: and they just say it rhymes with aloha. And Clausen 109 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: was so committed to his new word that a year 110 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: later he published an entire book called rahoa This planet 111 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: is all Ours. He later wrote another book called On 112 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: the Brink of a Bloody Racial War. Racial holy war 113 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: was central to the Church of the Creator, and over 114 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: the years some members of the church followed through on 115 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: that commandment. They racked up a couple of murders, some bombings, 116 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: assorted weapons charges, assault cases. By nineteen ninety three, the 117 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: church was facing mounting legal and financial problems. Clawson's wife 118 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: had died and now he had cancer. In August of 119 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, Ben Clausen died by suicide, leaving the 120 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: church in the hands of an unworthy successor, a man 121 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 1: who failed to even show up to court when a 122 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: lawsuit was filed by the family of a man murdered 123 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: by a member of the church. Leaderless and broke, the 124 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: church fell into disarray. In nineteen ninety six, a former member, 125 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: a law student named Matt Hale, revived the group, forming 126 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: a successor organization that he called the World Church of 127 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the Creator. This is a chapter that deserves its own episodes, 128 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: but the short version of this arc is. In two 129 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: thousand and two, under Matt Hale's leadership, the organization lost 130 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: a trademark infringement lawsuit whiled by a religious organization that 131 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: had already trademarked the phrase Church of the Creator in 132 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: the eighties. A judge ordered Matt Hale and his World 133 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: Church of the Creator to stop using the name. He 134 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to call it that anymore. He did not 135 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: take it well, and he heavily implied to his security 136 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: chief that he'd really like it if that man would 137 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: murder the judge who'd ruled against them. The man he 138 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: tried to solicit for the murder of a federal judge 139 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: was an FBI informant, and Matthew Hale will be in 140 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: prison and twenty thirty six. It was after Hale went 141 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: to prison that the church split into the two factions 142 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: we have today, the Creativity Alliance and the Creativity Movement. 143 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: The two groups hate each other, obviously, and the differences 144 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: between them aren't the point right now. But all that 145 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: to say Creativity is a Nazi religion. You don't necessarily 146 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: have to be a member of any of those organizations 147 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: to be an adherent of the religion, but if you 148 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: are a member of a group, it's probably one of 149 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: those two splinter groups that formed after matt Hale went 150 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: to prison. And that is where we find William Christopher Gibbs, 151 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: the man who made Risin and Georgia in twenty seventeen. 152 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: By all accounts, he discovered Creativity online sometime in the 153 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: summer of twenty sixteen, and he got really into it, 154 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: really fast. He created an account on the forums run 155 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: by the Creativity Alliance in June of twenty sixteen, and 156 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: their July newsletter published a letter from him. By September, 157 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: he was considering getting rahoa tattooed across his back, and 158 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: he was stopped by a cop after people complained about 159 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: him hanging around a public park trying to hand out 160 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: racist flyers. After Gibbs was arrested, the Creativity Movement, the 161 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: other faction of the church, issued a public statement clarifying 162 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: that he was not one of theirs. They claimed that 163 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: he had actually reached out to them when he was 164 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: trying to join, but the messages he sent were very weird. 165 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: Quote he struck us as one of the most dysfunctional, incoherent, 166 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: and mentally ill people we have come across. The statement read. Now, 167 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: that might sound unfair, but I read four frivolous lawsuits 168 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: that he wrote, and hundreds of posts that he's made 169 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: on Facebook across multiple different accounts over the course of 170 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: the last decade, and I'm willing to bet dysfunctional and 171 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: incoherent was an understatement. It can be pretty hard to 172 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: understand what he's trying to communicate. Sometimes the thoughts just 173 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: don't always quite connect. I should say at this point 174 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: that Gibbs's mother would later tell the police that her 175 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: son was diagnosed with schizophrenia. This doesn't appear anywhere in 176 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: the court records. It was never raised as a defense, 177 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: There was no request for a competency evaluation. All we 178 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: have is his mother's claim at the time of his arrest. 179 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: And obviously, mental illness doesn't cause racism. Racism isn't a 180 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: mental illness. The two are generally unrelated, and normally I 181 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: wouldn't even bring it up, especially considering the lack of 182 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: cooperation here. You can't diagnose a man based on his posts, 183 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: but there's definitely something going on there. I think anyone 184 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: who read any significant amount of his writing would be 185 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: able to tell that this is someone who's struggling with something, 186 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: and at least one of these Nazi groups could tell. 187 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: Colin Campbell, the Pontifex Maximus of the Creativity Alliance, on 188 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: the other hand, didn't see any red flags in this 189 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: potential new member. After Gibbs was arrested, Campbell acknowledged that 190 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: Gibbs had recently successfully completed his six month probationary period 191 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: and joined the group as a member, but he claimed 192 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: that Gibbs had quote hardly any contact with us, just 193 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: enough to pass as rational and dedicated to one hundred 194 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: percent legal white civil rights. And I doubt that Gibbs 195 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: had any sort of background knowledge or understanding of the 196 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: schisms within the movement. This is just something he found online. 197 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: He may not have even realized that these were two 198 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: very different groups run by people who hate at each other. 199 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: But when one group turned him away because he seemed unstable, 200 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: the other welcomed him. So on February two, twenty seventeen, 201 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: Gibbs was wearing his Creativity Alliance patch when he got 202 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: to the hospital, complaining of rice and exposure, and shortly 203 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: after he arrived, someone at the hospital called the police. 204 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: What about HIPPA, you're probably asking, or maybe you're not, 205 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: But his lawyers did, and the judge denied a motion 206 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: to suppress evidence stemming from disclosures made by the hospital. 207 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: HIPPA does allow medical providers to disclose what would otherwise 208 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: be protected information if it's necessary to prevent a serious 209 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: and imminent threat to the health and safety of others, 210 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: like if, for example, if a patient comes into the 211 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: hospital and says he was trying to make a biological weapon, 212 00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: and it's outside in his car. Within the hour, investigators 213 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: from the Fannin County Sheriff's Office were in his hospital room. 214 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: He wasn't under arrest. They just wanted to get a 215 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: better idea what was going on here and how alarmed 216 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: they should be. Gibbs explained that he'd ground up the 217 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: castor beans and put them in a bottle of nail 218 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: polish remover, and that all of those implements and materials 219 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: were in his car outside. Gibbs assured the officer that 220 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: it's quote, nothing to worry about, and when the officer 221 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: pressed him, asking if the substance in the car was poisonous, 222 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: Gibbs replied, quote, he said, it's not unless it's inhaled 223 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: or injected. This singular line in one filing written by 224 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: the judge has a citation in the footnotes to a 225 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: sealed document, and it never comes up again. There's never 226 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: any other mention of Gibbs having communicated with anyone about 227 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: making the rice, and so I guess it'll be a 228 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: mystery forever. But he's assuring the officer that there's no 229 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: danger to the public. It's fine, don't worry about it. 230 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: It's not a big deal. But at the same time, 231 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: he's gone to the emergency room because he thinks he's 232 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: been poisoned. And as this conversation is happening, he's pretty 233 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: agitated that he isn't receiving adequate treatment for this exposure. 234 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: He's upset that they haven't given him an IV for example, 235 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: And in an interview later that evening, he's hacking and 236 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: coughing and nervously asking an FBI agent what are the 237 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: symptoms of rice and poisoning? So he clearly thinks he's 238 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: been exposed to something very dangerous. The officer called him 239 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: back up, and by around eight o'clock that evening, deputies 240 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: had moved all of the other cars in the parking 241 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: lot out of what they were now calling the hot zone. 242 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: A hazmat team from another county arrived to search the car. 243 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: FBI agents rolled up in black suv, and the Army 244 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: National Guard's Weapons of Mass Destructions Civil Support team was 245 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: on site to provide assistance if needed. The bottle recovered 246 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: by the hasmat team tested positive for risin, but it 247 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: was a small amount and it was all contained within 248 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: the vehicle. There was no danger to the public. Gibbs 249 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: was released from the hospital. He was fine after being 250 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: interrogated that night by the FBI. Gibbs was initially held 251 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: at the county jail on just a misdemeanor charge of 252 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: reckless conduct. A few weeks later, though, a federal grand 253 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: jury indicted him on a single count of possession of 254 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: a biological agent or toxin by a person who didn't 255 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: have the proper registration. That section one's seventy five B 256 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: of Title eighteen of the US Code one seventy five B. 257 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: The B is so critical here because one seventy five 258 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: B isn't a subcategory of section one seventy five, it's 259 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: its own section Section one seventy five Prohibitions with respect 260 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: to biological weapons that carries a ten year sentence, and 261 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: one seventy five B is a paltry five years. The 262 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: difference between the two is intent. You have to prove 263 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: that the defendant intended to use the toxin as a 264 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: weapon if you want to charge them under one seventy five. 265 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: One seventy five B just means you had something you 266 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to have. That section was newly written in 267 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. Certainly, as some sort of frantic 268 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: post nine to eleven crackdown on scientists without update paperwork. 269 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: Maybe they just wanted to know who had what, where, 270 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: when and why, even if it wasn't something they were 271 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: planning to use as a weapon. Or maybe they just 272 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: wanted to be sure they could charge cases where the 273 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: facts were fuzzy, bit of both. I think so. When 274 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: I read news coverage of this case and the reports 275 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: all say the case against Gibbs was dismissed because Congress 276 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: forgot to make risin illegal, I thought that can't be right. 277 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: I've read cases from this time period that ended in 278 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: a conviction related to ricin. There was one in Georgia 279 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: just a few years before this, some militia guys with 280 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: a hair brain scheme to disperse the toxin over large 281 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: areas in major cities. It never would have worked. It 282 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: wasn't a workable plan. They didn't even have risin, and 283 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: there was no indication that they had any idea how 284 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: to make it or had sought that knowledge. It's a 285 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: scary sounding plot, but even the judge doubted that a 286 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: seventy year old man was going to figure out how 287 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: to do anything with those beans he bought. The hiccup 288 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: is right here, though, those elderly militia men with a 289 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: bag of raw castor beans were charged with section one 290 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: seventy five. They were only conspiring to make the ricin. 291 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: They did have the beans, and they were intending to 292 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: use them as a weapon. Most cases, where someone is 293 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: arrested because they had some kind of biological agent or toxin, 294 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: they go ahead and charge them with intent to use 295 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: it as a weapon. Why else would the cops be 296 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: at your house and a hazmat suit? Right, And that 297 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: law is pretty broad. It is enough to just attempt, threaten, 298 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: or conspire to use it as a weapon. You don't 299 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: even have to have a plan that would actually work. 300 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, in that militia case, they just had the beans. 301 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: They hadn't even made the poison yet. So in the 302 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: Gibbs case, they must not have felt that they could 303 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: meet even that burden. I guess they really thought that 304 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be able to convince a jury that he 305 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: was ever going to do anything other than spill it 306 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: in his car, so they charged him with the lesser 307 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: offense one seventy five B. And again that's just having 308 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: one of these biological agents or toxins without properly registering 309 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: that possession with the government. And those two laws they're 310 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: in the same chapter. They use most of the same words. 311 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: How could it be that one of them applies to 312 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: risin and one of them doesn't. The answer took me 313 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: too long to figure out. It's very complicated and it's 314 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: very silly. So just to get a little schoolhouse rock 315 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: on you here. We have laws, right. The United States 316 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: Code is the codification of all of the permanent federal statutes, 317 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: those things that become law after Congress passes a bill. 318 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: But we also have something called the Code of Federal Regulations. 319 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: After passing a law, Congress can delegate the authority to 320 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: a government agency to write the regulations that help that 321 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: agency interpret and implement those laws. It's more complicated than that, 322 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: but I know nobody wants to hear me struggle to 323 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: explain regulatory law, so I'm not gonna so. In this case, 324 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: Congress passed a bill that said it's illegal to have 325 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: biological agents or toxins. Okay, solid law, But they're not 326 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: experts on microbiology, so they leave it to the Department 327 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: of Health and Human Services to list what sorts of 328 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: things need to be criminalized by this law specifically, and 329 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: Risin was on that list. In the first Code section 330 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: there actually is no list. It just says biological agent 331 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: or toxin and that's defined very broadly. But in this 332 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: specific section in one seventy five B, the Code section 333 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: that requies requires you to register with the Secretary of 334 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: Health and Human Services if you possess certain what are 335 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: called select agents. Got a list them. They're select agents. 336 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: You have to select them. So instead of listing those 337 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: select agents by name in the law, it specified that 338 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: it applied to biological agents and toxins that are quote 339 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: listed as non overlap or overlap select biological agent or 340 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: toxin in sections seventy three point four and seventy three 341 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: point five of Title forty two, Code of Federal Regulations. Okay, 342 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: so I assume Risin must be missing from that list, right, 343 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: That's why the case got dropped. So I found a 344 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: copy of the twenty seventeen version of the Code of 345 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: Federal Regulations and I flipped a Title forty two, section 346 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: seventy three, and Risin's on the list. I control eft 347 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: it I found Risin in section seventy three. I can 348 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: see it what happened, and here's it gets so silly. 349 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: So the law was passed in two thousand and one. 350 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, the statute made specific reference 351 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: to the list of toxins found in the Code of 352 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: Federal Regulations, Title forty two, Section seventy two point six. 353 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: Then in two thousand and two, the Department of Health 354 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: and Human Services made some formatting updates to their rules 355 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: and regulations, so Congress amended the law in two thousand 356 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: and two to match the updated reference. So now the 357 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: law says that the list is in appendix A of 358 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: section seventy two. Perfect, everything's matching up. In two thousand 359 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: and four, Congress amended the law again, updating that reference 360 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: again because Health and Human Services had made some more 361 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: formatting changes, And now the list of toxins is in 362 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: section seventy three point four in seventy three point five perfect. 363 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: The law and the regulation still match until three months later, 364 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: Health and Human Services did a little bit of reformatting 365 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: of their rules and regulations. They eliminated an unnecessary section, 366 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: so everything got shifted by point one. So now the 367 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: list of toxins with risin on it is section seventy 368 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: three point three and the law wasn't amended to match. 369 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: It's like a dead link, right, the law requires the list. 370 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: The law says that the things on the list are illegal, 371 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: but it points you to a really specific place, and 372 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: that's not where the list is anymore. And if it 373 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: only criminalizes the things on the list and there is 374 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: no list, then it's not illegal. Obviously this was a mistake. 375 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: They'd made updates in tandem twice before. Twice the regulations 376 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: changed and they updated the law to match so that 377 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: the numbers still matched. They just didn't do it the 378 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: third time. And in the law it lists the name 379 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: of the regulation they're talking about. It just has the 380 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: wrong number. Surely that doesn't make it legal to make risin. 381 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: But I found two judges who said that's exactly what 382 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: it did in this case. In twenty eighteen, a judge 383 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: in the Northern Destruct of Georgia dismissed the indictment against 384 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: William Christopher Gibbs. Judge Richard's Story wrote, it falls to 385 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Congress to write the laws or to amend them if 386 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: they yield unfair or unwanted results. The role of the courts, 387 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is limited to fairly reading and 388 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: applying the law's Congress rights, not to change them. In 389 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: other words, Congress fucked up, But a judge can't change 390 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: the law. He can't apply the law that he thinks 391 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: should have been passed. Citing that decision in the Gibbs case, 392 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: judge James Moody and Arkansas missed a similar case against 393 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: Alexander Jordan in twenty twenty. Jordan was twenty one when 394 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: he called nine one one in a panic, believing he'd 395 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: poisoned himself. He claimed that he'd created the risin because 396 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: he was thinking of ending his own life, and when 397 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: first responders arrived, he did warn them to be careful 398 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: around the substance. He didn't want people to get hurt. 399 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: After his arrest, he was sent to a psychiatric facility 400 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: to await trial, but the trial ever came. Congress amended 401 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: the law to correct the mistake after what happened in 402 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: the Gibbs case, so in twenty nineteen the law has 403 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: been fixed. But Alexander Jordan was charged in twenty eighteen 404 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: before the law changed. And while the correction to the 405 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: law made it clear that they'd always intended to criminalize risin, 406 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't illegal when Jordan did it. Judge Moody wrote, 407 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: there is no ambiguity. The government should not be allowed 408 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: to prosecute the defendant for conduct that was not made 409 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: illegal until after he committed the challenged acts. Congress had 410 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: fifteen years to amend the statute. Now it's possible there 411 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: are other cases, but I only found one other case 412 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: with a pretty similar set of circumstances, so someone who 413 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: was charged only under the Possession Statute for conduct that 414 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: occurred after two thousand and five, but before twenty nineteen. 415 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: And in this third case, the judge was presented with 416 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: the decisions that had already been made in the Alexander 417 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: Jordan and William Gibbs cases. He read those opinions and 418 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: he said, judges can disagree. Everybody can tell what Congress meant. Honestly, 419 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of a reasonable opinion in this case. 420 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: I think everybody can tell what Congress meant. Statutory interpretation 421 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: is not interesting to me. So maybe that judge and 422 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: I are wrong. And this case was a little different 423 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: because Debbie Sears Hill had already pled guilty, so it's 424 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: not the same. It's just dismissing an indictment. She would 425 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: have to revoke her guilty plea and vacate her sentence. 426 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: But it is interesting that a third judge looked at 427 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: the same facts and had an entirely opposite read on 428 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: the situation. After the federal case against Gibbs was dropped, 429 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: he spent one more week in jail. The Fens had 430 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: released him, but he'd only been in federal custody since 431 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: his arrest. Bannon County, Georgia wanted a couple of days 432 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: time for a probation violation. His arrest for reckless conduct 433 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: on the day he showed up at the hospital violated 434 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: the terms of a twenty twelve plea deal for an 435 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: old burglary conviction, But that was it because the case 436 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: never went to trial. Though we don't know what happened, 437 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: there's nothing on the record about what Gibbs planned to 438 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: do with the risin. Most of the recording on the 439 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: case focuses on the two details we do know. He 440 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: made risin, and he was a self professed adherent of Creativity, 441 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: a white supremacist religious movement. There is a heavy implication 442 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: that he must have been plotting some kind of racially 443 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: motivated terror attack, and I'll admit that's where my mind 444 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: went too, But that's because I didn't know very much 445 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: about risin. It's a toxin found in the seeds of 446 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: the castor oil plant, and don't get me wrong, it 447 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: is extremely toxic. Do not make risin, Do not chew 448 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: on castor beans, which is incidentally one of the most 449 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: common causes of toxicity. It is thousands of times more 450 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: poisonous than cyanide or rattlesnake venom. And it's really easy 451 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: to make. I'm not going to tell you how to 452 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: make rice, and I just want to put on the 453 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: record that all those Google searches I made last night 454 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: for how to make risin, how to extract risin from 455 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: castor bean, castor bean acetone, castor bean solvent extraction, that 456 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: was for work. Okay, if the FBI is listening, that 457 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: was for work. I don't even have any beans. I 458 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: hated chemistry in high school. I just like to have 459 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: a robust understanding of the case. Okay, But several articles 460 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: I read by doctors and toxicologists and chemists all seem 461 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: to agree any idiot can figure it out. It's easier 462 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: than cooking meth, and plenty of people do that every day. 463 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: Just fine. The instructions are pretty easy to find online, 464 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: and it's something you can do at home with normal 465 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: household solvents. We don't need any special equipment or scientific knowledge. 466 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: The results achieved by your average home chemist are going 467 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: to vary pretty widely depending on a variety of factors, 468 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: but in most cases you're going to end up with 469 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: something you definitely shouldn't eat. So it's highly toxic, there's 470 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: no known cure, and it's very easy to make it 471 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: home with things that are cheap and legal to buy. 472 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: This must be a terrorist weapon of choice, right, This 473 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: must be happening all the time, Not exactly. Risin has 474 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: existed for as long as the castor oil plant has. 475 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: You can get rice and toxicity from just eating the 476 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: seeds of the plant. It was first isolated in a 477 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: lab by a German microbiologist in eighteen eighty eight, and 478 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,239 Speaker 1: within a few years people were trying to figure out 479 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: how to use it as a weapon. During World War One, 480 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: the US military experimented with trying to create toxic dust 481 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: clouds that could be unleashed on the battlefield. Inhalation of 482 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: powdered risin would be extremely toxic, but it's hard to 483 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: get the particle size right so that it aerosolizes. It's 484 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: hard to control a cloud of poisonous dust, and with 485 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: no antidote, you risk your own troops if the wind shifts. 486 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: Experimentation with risin coated bullets and shrapnel was pretty quickly abandoned, 487 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: in part because it would be a violation of the 488 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: Hague Conventions, but in a more practical sense, bullets get 489 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: very hot and high heat denatures the toxin, so it 490 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: just wouldn't work anyway. During World War Two, several countries 491 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: experimented with bombs that would release risin without superheating it, 492 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: but ultimately they were cheaper, easier, more controllable ways to 493 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: get the exact same horrible results, so risin was never 494 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 1: really used on the battlefield. It's just not that useful 495 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: for large scale attacks. It's possible, sure people have tried. 496 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: You could aerosolize it over a large area. You could 497 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: put massive quantities of it in a water supply and 498 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: people would get sick and they might die. But it's 499 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: not the best tool for that job. You have to 500 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: use a lot of it, and it would be hard 501 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: to make it at that kind of scale. It's very 502 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: difficult to control for particle size. If you're trying to 503 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: aerosolize it, some chemicals used in water treatment would render 504 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: it useless. A few countries kept trying to figure out 505 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: how to use it at scale, but it never took off, 506 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: So maybe that just means it's better suited for use 507 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: up close. A paper published in a twenty twenty one 508 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: issue of Toxicon, the official scientific journal of the International 509 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: Society on Toxinology, found fifty cases of rice and intoxication 510 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: in the scientific literature during a forty year period from 511 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty to And in that forty year period, they 512 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: found fifty cases described in the scientific literature. Seventy four 513 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: percent were accidental exposures, and only six people died. And 514 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: those were only the cases that ended up in a 515 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: medical journal. So minor incidents where everyone was fine don't 516 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: warrant a case study. So I assume in the real 517 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: world that fatality rate is even lower. Okay, but surely, 518 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: surely all six of those deaths were some kind of 519 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: sinister plot. Right. The paper didn't say it was written 520 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: by scientists. They're more focused on things like hydrolyzing ribosomes 521 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: and polypeptide chains with disulfide bonds. I don't know. That's 522 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: not my business. So I poked around the medical literature 523 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: a little bit on my own, and I found half 524 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: a dozen case studies discussing deaths by suicide, almost all 525 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: of which involves injecting themselves with a rice in solution. 526 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: There was one paper about a man who died after 527 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: ingesting an herbal remedy that he didn't know contained powdered 528 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: castor beans. And I found another dozen or soap papers 529 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: about non lethal ricin poisonings, and all of those were 530 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: either suicide attempts or accidents. You know, a child chewing 531 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: up some seeds, a woman eating castor beans because an 532 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: herbal has told her it would make her hair grow thicker, 533 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: things like that. I looked everywhere for proof that risin 534 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: has ever actually been used to kill someone on purpose, 535 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: someone other than oneself. I looked in media coverage, medical journals, 536 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: court records, government reports on bioterrorism, the Army's Handbook on 537 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: Management of Biological Casualties. Looked everywhere it has happened one time, 538 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: people have tried, people have come close, people have gotten 539 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: very sick. But at least as far as any publication 540 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: I can find by any government entity. The only time 541 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: rice has ever been used to successfully murder someone, it 542 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: was in nineteen seventy eight. The victim was Georgi Markov, 543 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: a political dissident from Bulgaria. He was standing at a 544 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: bus stop in London when he felt a sharp prick 545 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: on the back of his leg. He didn't realize it 546 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: at the time, but an assassin had shot him with 547 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: a tiny pellet containing risin, fired out of a device 548 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: concealed inside of an umbrella. Markov died in the hospital 549 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: four days later. This was a highly sophisticated operation, allegedly 550 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: carried out by the Bulgarian Secret Police with assistance from 551 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: the KGB. The pellet was finely machined, less than two 552 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: millimeters in diameter, with tiny holes drilled in it to 553 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: form a reservoir for the poison. The device used compressed 554 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: air to fire the pellet at short range, circumventing the 555 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: problem posed by the heat of a traditional gun barrew. 556 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: Investigators believe the pellet was also coated in a sticky 557 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: substance designed to melt at the temperature of the human body, 558 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: which would then release the poison. That's not something your 559 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: average home chemist could pull off. There are cases of 560 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: attempted murder using risin, and aside from a few very 561 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,919 Speaker 1: high profile assassination attempts, mostly involving the KGB, they seem 562 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: to be predominantly crimes of intimacy. They happen in the home. Injection, inhalation, 563 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: and ingestion. These are the three routes to rice in poisoning. 564 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: Injection is favored by assassins and those taking their own lives. 565 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: Inhalation is unpredictable and hard to weaponize. So most of 566 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 1: the stories I could find of someone who is non 567 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: lethally but intentionally poisoned with ricin, it was because someone 568 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: put it in their food, a husband, a wife, a neighbor, 569 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: a mother. I couldn't find any instances where a victim 570 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: died from this, but it's possible that they're out there, 571 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: and it's just not the kind of thing that shows 572 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: up in a DHS report or a bioterrorism medical manual. 573 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: So people are giving their husbands kidney failure and diarrhea. 574 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: But why did I think this was some kind of superweapon? 575 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: I feel like it lives in the same place in 576 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: my brain as anthrax, and I know I'm not the 577 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: only one, because in twenty thirteen alone, three separate people 578 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: and a bunch of letters full of risin trying to 579 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: recreate the hysteria of the two thousand and one anthrax letters. 580 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: If you're too young to have watched nine to eleven 581 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: happen on the TV at school, back in two thousand 582 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: and one, letters containing spores of the bacterium basillisanthrasis were 583 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: mailed to the offices of several news outlets and to 584 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: Senators Tom Dashall and Patrick Lahey. At least twenty two 585 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: people developed anthrax infections, and five of them died. Even 586 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: if you are too young to remember the amerthrax case 587 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: unfolding in real time, the image of mysterious white powder 588 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: in an envelope is sort of ubiquitous now. Every police 589 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: procedural drama has an episode with poisoned mail, because again, 590 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: this was happening just a few weeks after nine to eleven, 591 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,720 Speaker 1: and everyone had kind of lost their minds. This incident 592 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: rewired our brains to believe that any one of us 593 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: could be the victim of a bioterrorism attack, and it 594 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: spawned a lot of real world copycat hoaxes. In two 595 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: thousand and eight alone, the US Postal Inspection Service responded 596 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: to nearly three thousand incidents of suspicious substances sent through 597 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: the mail, and a majority of those cases were quote 598 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: unknown white powders. From two thousand and seven to two 599 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, the FBI investigated nearly one thousand potential 600 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: crimes involving possible biological agents found in conjunction with a 601 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: threatening note, and most of those cases, too, were white 602 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: powder letters. But they're never real. They're never real. A 603 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: guy mailed making powder to the IRS with a letter 604 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: that says, here's anthrax, and he spelled anthrax wrong. A 605 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: man in the UK mailed protein powder to an MP. 606 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: It's sugar or salt or flour. In one case, nine 607 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,959 Speaker 1: cops in Florida were hospitalized and held in quarantine because 608 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: they found a box of white powder and they assumed 609 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,479 Speaker 1: it was a bioweapon. It was cocaine. But the fear 610 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: that these incidents cause is real, and that's enough for 611 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: most hoaxers. But what if you didn't just want to 612 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: do a hoax? What if you wanted to do it 613 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 1: for real? But you don't know how to make anthrax? 614 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: A lot of the literature emphasized that it's not hard 615 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: to make anthrax. They just mean it's possible for a 616 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: non state actor to do. They don't necessarily mean it's 617 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: possible for you to do. You need some actual lab 618 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: equipment and some specialized skills, at least the kind of 619 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: lab skills you would learn in a college level microbiology class. 620 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: But ricin rice's easy to make. And if in the 621 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: wake of the anthrax letters, white powder is what's scary, 622 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: ricin can be a white powder too. It's perfect for 623 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: an aspiring terrorist without a lot of skills. So these 624 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: are people who are taking an extra step. If they 625 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: just wanted to scare people, they could mail powdered sugar 626 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: like everybody else. But they went out of their way 627 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: to make risin. So they must want something to happen. 628 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: They must want someone to get sick. But they don't 629 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,439 Speaker 1: seem to realize that ricin doesn't work that way. There's 630 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: no evidence that anyone has ever gotten sick from a 631 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: ris in letter. And I don't just mean they haven't died. 632 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: We've covered that nobody's dying from this. No one's gotten sick. 633 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: Unlike anthrax, you can't absorb rising through your skin. It 634 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. It can cause illness if inhaled, 635 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: similar to anthrax, but the home chemist is unlikely to 636 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: create a rice in power are fine enough to aerosolize. 637 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: To get sick from one of these ris in letters, 638 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,439 Speaker 1: you would have to eat it. Surely that people doing 639 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: this have some idea how risin works, I mean they 640 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: did the research to figure out how to make it. 641 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: Surely information about how it works is accessible in a 642 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: similar place. It's impossible to say why most of these 643 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: people believed something that was just provably scientifically impossible to 644 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: result in the intended outcome. But there are some cases, 645 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: starting about fifteen years ago, where we do know the 646 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: answer to that question, and it's so embarrassing for them. 647 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,720 Speaker 1: They saw it on Breaking Bad. Risin was a recurring 648 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: plot device for four of the five seasons of the 649 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: television show Breaking Bad. If you haven't seen the show, 650 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: it's pretty good check it out. Brian Cranston plays Walter White, 651 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: a high school chemistry teacher who turns to cooking meth 652 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: to pay for his medical bills. Hi Jenson sue, he 653 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: gets pretty good at crime. I don't really remember. It's 654 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: been a few years. In a season two episode that 655 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,439 Speaker 1: aired in March of two thousand and nine, Walter White 656 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: is teaching his young assistant Jesse Pinkman, how to make 657 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,240 Speaker 1: risin so they can use it to poison a Mexican 658 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: drug kingpin. In that episode, the first time Rison appears 659 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: in the show. They're really overplaying it. As Walter is 660 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: explaining the plan, they're leaning over the table looking at 661 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: the beans. Walter slaps Jesse's hand away as he reaches 662 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: out to touch them, and Jesse's incredulous and he says, seriously, 663 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: you can get poisoned from beans, and Walter tells him 664 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: yes again, even the finished product, even once you have 665 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: extracted the toxin from the bean, you can probably touch. 666 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: You can definitely touch the beans, just don't chew them 667 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: up and swallow them. The risin is teased throughout the show, 668 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: and there's always this implication that it is the perfect 669 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: murder weapon that sprinkling it on someone's food or giving 670 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: them a rice and laced cigarette to smoke spells certain death. 671 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: In the series finale in twenty thirteen, Walter White kills 672 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: a drug smuggler by switching out the sweetener packet that 673 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: she puts in her tea for when filled with risin, 674 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: and since that episode aired, there have been at least 675 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: five cases in which the defendant outright admitted that they 676 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: got the idea to purchase, manufacture, or use risin because 677 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: they saw it on that show. The make believe meth 678 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: dealer on TV told him it was easy, deadly, and 679 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: often overlooked as a cause of death because the symptoms 680 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: are more easily explained by some ordinary illness. In the 681 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: most egregious instance, a thirty seven year old woman in 682 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: London went online to purchase ris in just days after 683 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,359 Speaker 1: seeing the series finale, and in that episode, Walter White 684 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: put risin in a woman's tea. But when Kuntal Patel 685 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: logged onto the dark web to try to buy risin, 686 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: she was ultimately sold a similar poison called abrin, and 687 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: when she received it, she dumped it into her mother's 688 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: diet coke. Her mother survived, and Patel got a three 689 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: year sentence in the span of just a couple of years. 690 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,760 Speaker 1: Ishtiyak Salem in Pennsylvania, Muhammad Ali in Liverpool, Daniel Millsman 691 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: in d c and Alexander Jordan in Arkansas all said 692 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: they got the idea from the show, and I'm sure 693 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: they're not the only ones. In twenty thirteen, in the 694 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:59,239 Speaker 1: middle of Breaking Bad's final season, three separate people in 695 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: three entirely unrelated cases made Risin, put it in envelopes 696 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: and mailed it to important people. Letters went to a 697 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: federal judge, New York City mayor, Mike Bloomberg, the CIA, 698 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: an Air Force base, a Mississippi state representative. Two of 699 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: the letter writers sent one to Barack Obama. Obviously, no 700 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: one got hurt. You can't get sick from a rice 701 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: In letter. And I can't prove that Matthew Buquette, James Douciki, 702 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: or Shannon Richardson were Breaking Bad fans, But come on, 703 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: I think I'd be willing to put money on the 704 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: fact that Shannon Richardson at least was watching the show, 705 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: because I know she loved Prestige TV. She was an actress, 706 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: she'd had a small role as one of the zombies 707 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: on The Walking Dead. And I don't think she actually 708 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: wanted to poison Michael Bloomberg or Barack Obama. She was 709 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: trying to get rid of her husband. I don't know 710 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: why she didn't just poison her husband. This seems very elaborate, 711 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: but she was in the middle of a divorce and 712 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: I guess she wanted to speed things along, so she 713 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,840 Speaker 1: manufactured rice and in her kitchen, mailed it to the president, 714 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: and then called the police to say she thought her 715 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: husband had done it. She is, of course, in federal prison. 716 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: By twenty nineteen, William Christopher Gibbs was home, his ordeal 717 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: was over, his case was dropped. He filed a number 718 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: of lawsuits against various law enforcement agencies involved in this, 719 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: but they were all incoherent and quickly dismissed. In twenty 720 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: twenty one, the Pontifex Maximus of the Creativity Alliance hosted 721 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,720 Speaker 1: in the group's online forum that Gibbs had been excommunicated 722 00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: from the church. It's not totally clear why they waited 723 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: until twenty twenty one. Again, he was arrested in twenty seventeen, 724 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: but Reverend Colin Campbell's list of reasons was as follows, 725 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 1: insufficient explanation for the use of beans that make risin 726 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: use of titles he is not authorized to use, Reverend 727 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: Pontifex and Pontifex Maximus. General disobedience is a prospective church 728 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 1: member use of Arian brotherhood imagery without authorization and for 729 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: personal gain, usage of outlaw motorcycle club names without authorization 730 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,920 Speaker 1: and for personal gain, attempting to declare wars in the 731 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: name of Creativity against outlaw motorcycle clubs. Okay, so he 732 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: does start out with the beans. There's a little bit 733 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,960 Speaker 1: in there about how really he should have had a 734 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 1: good reason for making ricin. They're not saying he shouldn't 735 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,120 Speaker 1: have made ricin, they just want clarification on why he 736 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 1: was doing that. But everything else on this list, this 737 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: is overwhelmingly just made up stuff. It's weird Nazi church stuff. 738 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,840 Speaker 1: They're mad that he called himself a reverend in the 739 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,000 Speaker 1: Nazi Church when he wasn't really a reverend. He pretended 740 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 1: to be the pope of Nazi Church online. He posted 741 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: things online that might make people think he was more important, 742 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,000 Speaker 1: more involved than he really was, or involved with people 743 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 1: or groups that he wasn't. Honestly, I think the worst 744 00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: thing on this list is that he was trying to 745 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: start fights with motorcycle clubs in the name of the church. 746 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:43,280 Speaker 1: Nobody wants that heat. Even though he is officially excommunicated 747 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,279 Speaker 1: from the Creativity Alliance, he's made quite a few posts 748 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: in the last four years that indicate he's still an 749 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: adherent of Creativity, that godless religion of white supremacy. He 750 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,839 Speaker 1: still calls himself Pontefec's Maximus. Sometimes he'll post rahoa every 751 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,360 Speaker 1: now and again, but he also posts Crowley and sigels 752 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: and snippets of the Necronomicon, and sometimes what appeared to 753 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,680 Speaker 1: be Christian prayers, and earlier this year he posted his 754 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,919 Speaker 1: last will and testament, in which he names Kim Jong 755 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,560 Speaker 1: un the executor of his estate. So hard to say 756 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 1: what he believes. We'll probably never know why he was 757 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: making risin in his car between shifts at the chicken plant. 758 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't really enough to hurt anybody, even if he'd 759 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,720 Speaker 1: tried to use it, although the fact that he panicked 760 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 1: and went to the hospital seems to indicate that he 761 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:45,280 Speaker 1: didn't know that. If I had to guess, and I shouldn't. 762 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: If he did plan to do anything with it, it 763 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: was probably what most people do with it. They hurt 764 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: someone close to them. Congress accidentally legalized risin for fifteen years, 765 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,760 Speaker 1: and the only two people who benefited from that mistake 766 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 1: were a confused racist in Georgia who spilled it in 767 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,840 Speaker 1: his car, and a man in Arkansas who changed his 768 00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:16,640 Speaker 1: mind about ending his life. There's no moral to this story. 769 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: Just don't eat your mail and don't chew on any 770 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: mysterious beans. Weird Little Guys is a correction of Coolzo 771 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: Media and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by me, 772 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: Molly Conker. Our executive producers are Sovie Looked Mean and 773 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: Narbert Dans. The show is edited by the wildly talented 774 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,360 Speaker 1: Mary Gigan. The females is composed by Brad Dickert. You 775 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: can email me at Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail 776 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: dot com. I will definitely read it, but I probably 777 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,200 Speaker 1: won't answer. It's nothing personal. You can exchange conspiracy theories 778 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,080 Speaker 1: about the show with other listeners on the Weird Little 779 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 1: Guys sub reddit. Just don't post anything that's going to 780 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: make you one of my Weird Little Guys