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Speaker 1: Hey, Kelly, do you still remember your parents phone number

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Speaker 1: from when you were growing up?

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 3: I doubt I'll ever forget it.

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Speaker 4: My fingers can still go through the muscle memory of

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Speaker 4: pushing it on a Touchtowne phone.

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Speaker 1: And now do you know like all of your family

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Speaker 1: phone numbers?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 4: They're on my phone. There's no need to remember them.

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Speaker 4: They're on the brain in my pocket.

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Speaker 1: So do you think of your phone as like an

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Speaker 1: extension of your brain?

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Speaker 3: I am not.

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Speaker 4: Sure I could be a fully functioning human being without

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Speaker 4: it anymore.

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Speaker 1: So maybe do you ever wonder, though, if like our

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Speaker 1: phones feel the same way. Do they feel like they're

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Speaker 1: part of our brains or that we are part of them?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: I hope not, because if my phone has feelings, I'm

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Speaker 4: sure it's crumpy because I drop it all the time

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Speaker 4: and I have filled it with photos of disgusting bugs

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Speaker 4: and rolling poop. So I hope my phone does not

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Speaker 4: have feelings.

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Speaker 1: We've all dunked our phone in places we'd never want

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Speaker 1: to mention. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and

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Speaker 1: a professor at UC Irvine, and I think my phone

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Speaker 1: is smarter than I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kelly wier Smith.

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Speaker 4: I'm an adjunct assistant professor at Greece University, and I

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Speaker 4: am sure that my phone is smarter than.

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Speaker 1: I am because your phone told you so.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and I believe everything my phone says.

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Speaker 1: Well, my phone is definitely better at some things than

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Speaker 1: I am, though I still hold out hope that there

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Speaker 1: are things that humans can do that phones can't do.

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Speaker 3: That gap is getting smaller and smaller every day, though, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: But maybe that's not the right way to look at it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe instead of heating with our phones about who's most intelligent,

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Speaker 1: we should just be thinking about us and our phones

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Speaker 1: together working in harmony to unlock the nature of the universe.

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Speaker 3: The Ultimate Symbiosis.

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Speaker 1: And Welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the

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Speaker 1: universe in which we try to unlock the nature of

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Speaker 1: the universe. We use all of the technology at our disposal,

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Speaker 1: all of the AI, and all of the biological intelligence

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Speaker 1: to try to unravel the mystery of this beautiful and

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Speaker 1: gorgeous cosmos, to boil it all down into a story

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Speaker 1: that makes sense, at least to our human brains, if

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Speaker 1: that's even possible. My friend and usual co host Jorge

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Speaker 1: can't be here today, but I'm very pleased to be

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Speaker 1: joined by our regular guest host, Kelly. Kelly, thanks again

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Speaker 1: for coming on the pod.

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Speaker 4: Hello, thanks for having me on the pod. I especially

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Speaker 4: love when you're having me on the podcast to talk

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Speaker 4: about science fiction books. So I'm super excited to be

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Speaker 4: here today.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Usually we are analyzing the science of our

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Speaker 1: actual universe, wanting to understand how quantum mechanics weaves itself

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Speaker 1: together to make our reality, or what's going on going

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Speaker 1: on with the latest advances in astronomy and cosmology. But

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Speaker 1: part of doing science is being creative, is thinking about

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Speaker 1: the ways the universe could work or might work, or

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Speaker 1: ways alternative universes could work. And so that's why I

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Speaker 1: like to read so much science fiction, and on the

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Speaker 1: podcast we have a series of episodes diving into the

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Speaker 1: physics of fictional universes in which we interview science fiction authors.

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Speaker 1: It's an excuse for me to get to read science

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Speaker 1: fiction and an opportunity for Kelly and I do fanboy

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Speaker 1: and fangirl out talking to the authors themselves. Yay. But

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating process hearing about how somebody puts together

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Speaker 1: an entire fictional universe, how they build it up from

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Speaker 1: the rules, the consequences of living in that universe. What

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Speaker 1: is it like to be human if the rules are

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Speaker 1: fundamentally different, or if technology has progressed so far that

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Speaker 1: it changes the nature of being human.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've always had a lot of respect for

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Speaker 4: sci fi authors, but through the course of doing these

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Speaker 4: interviews with you, I have there's so much more respect

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Speaker 4: thinking about how much world building needs to happen before

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Speaker 4: a book comes out.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's so much more work than I would

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Speaker 3: have imagined.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because you have to be creative not just

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Speaker 1: about the science of your universe and the technology of it,

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Speaker 1: but really thinking deeply about the human side of it.

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Speaker 1: The best science fiction, of course, they're human stories. They're

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Speaker 1: about people and what it's like to be human in

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Speaker 1: that era, and you have to also bridge this gap.

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Speaker 1: You can't write stories about people who are so far

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Speaker 1: away from us emotionally personally that we can't identify with them, right,

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Speaker 1: You need to somehow create that universe and make it

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Speaker 1: adjacent enough to ours that we can connect with these

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Speaker 1: characters and care about them, even though their lives can

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Speaker 1: be so different. From ours, and.

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Speaker 3: This book did such a good job of that.

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Speaker 1: It really did. It also sort of puts us in

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Speaker 1: our place as humans and makes us feel like, oh boy,

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Speaker 1: we better get our stuff together. Yes. So on the

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Speaker 1: podcast today, we'll be talking about the science fiction universe

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Speaker 1: of Meru by S. B. Diva. Diva is an author

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Speaker 1: we've had on the podcast before. She is very acclaimed.

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Speaker 1: She's the Hugo and Nebula nominated author of Machinehood, which

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Speaker 1: we talked about about a year ago on the pod.

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Speaker 1: Her stories have appeared in numerous magazines and anthologies. She's

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Speaker 1: also a former editor of Escape Pod, which is a

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Speaker 1: weekly science fiction podcast which is a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: She has degrees in computational neuroscience and signal processing and

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Speaker 1: has worked in the medical device industry, so she knows

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Speaker 1: what she's talking about when it comes to post humanity,

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Speaker 1: as we'll hear all about in our interview with her.

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Speaker 1: And one of my favorite things in her bio is

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Speaker 1: that on her homepage she writes, quote, I am currently

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Speaker 1: mortal and full of squishy organs, but I hope to

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Speaker 1: outlive that.

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Speaker 3: M I wonder what the timeline is going to be

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Speaker 3: for that.

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Speaker 1: I think she's hoping that some of the stuff in

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Speaker 1: her book happens soon enough that she can move beyond

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Speaker 1: her earthly existence as a bag of squishy meat.

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Speaker 4: I'm happy as a bag of squishybeat, but the whole

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Speaker 4: big things work out for her.

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Speaker 1: So, Kelly and I both read this book. It's called

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Speaker 1: Mehru Meru, and it's available for sale now. We encourage

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Speaker 1: you to get it. Kelly, what do you think this

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Speaker 1: book is about? How would you summarize the topic of

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Speaker 1: the book for our listeners?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I wish you had told me you were going

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Speaker 4: to ask you that ahead of time. There's lots of

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Speaker 4: moving pieces in this book. It's like complicated in a

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Speaker 4: great way. But so I guess in summary, humans have

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Speaker 4: sort of messed up, and another branch of humans have

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Speaker 4: evolved and they've been sort of taken care of things

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Speaker 4: to make sure we don't mess up again, and this

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Speaker 4: is sort of the story about whether or not we

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Speaker 4: deserve to be released.

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Speaker 3: Back out into the universe. What do you think?

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Speaker 4: How would you describe what the book is about in

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Speaker 4: just a few sentences?

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Speaker 1: Either? That was a great summary. Yeah, in my view,

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Speaker 1: it's like near future science fiction, and so it's close

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Speaker 1: enough that we can imagine it happening. And the major

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Speaker 1: movements that happened between now in this near future are

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Speaker 1: that there's a new race of humans, humans that have

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Speaker 1: sort of machines built into them. More than like your

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Speaker 1: phone in your pocket. These are like really integrated into

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be these beings, and they don't

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Speaker 1: call themselves humans. They call themselves alloys. In the way

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Speaker 1: that you can mix metals together to get a stronger metal.

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Speaker 1: Here she's mixing organic and machine parts together to make

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Speaker 1: an alloy. And you have all sorts of really fascinating mixtures,

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Speaker 1: including beings that can fly through space. They're basically living ships,

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Speaker 1: you know, humans that are ships that fly through space

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Speaker 1: that have other humans inside of them. It's really very creative.

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Speaker 4: It's such a cool idea, and I feel like that

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Speaker 4: is maybe the part of the book that kept me

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Speaker 4: up the most sidnight thinking about, like one thinking about

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Speaker 4: the social dynamics, but then two thinking about you know,

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Speaker 4: if you're traveling through space and it takes you like

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Speaker 4: months to get somewhere, what do you do on a

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Speaker 4: trip like that when it's just.

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Speaker 3: You and anyway.

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Speaker 4: I could talk about this all day long, It is

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Speaker 4: such a cool idea, and she does great things with it.

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Speaker 1: She does great things with it. She really thinks, sit

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Speaker 1: through what it's like to be that and the emotional

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Speaker 1: relationship you have with this ship. I was just also

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Speaker 1: pleased to have so many new ideas. When I read

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Speaker 1: so much science fiction, I feel like the same five

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Speaker 1: ideas for getting from one place to another are recycled

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Speaker 1: over and over again. And so I just love seeing

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Speaker 1: something news. I mean, you haven't seen before. It's really creative.

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Speaker 1: And I was also really impressed by the reality of

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Speaker 1: the experience, you know, the human side of it. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times when you find yourself in a new

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Speaker 1: world in science fiction, it's a bit cartoony, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very simplified. But she is such a rich description

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Speaker 1: of like the politics, the arguments. You know, there's no

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Speaker 1: monolithic organizations here where like all of the alloys think

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Speaker 1: this and all the humans think that. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: currents and there's factions and there's disagreements among every group

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Speaker 1: in a way that I think is very human and realistic.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these days, nobody can seem to agree about

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Speaker 1: anything that's right.

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Speaker 4: That's right, and she built out this huge history to

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Speaker 4: sort of support the story, and you get glimpses of

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Speaker 4: it every once in a while, but this is like,

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Speaker 4: this is a complete world that she has built and

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Speaker 4: you immerse yourself in it and it's yeah, I agree,

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Speaker 4: So politics don't feel corny.

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Speaker 3: The history makes perfect sense and it's it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I love that she has like massive failed

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Speaker 1: projects in the book. This is time in the book

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Speaker 1: where so many builds like a meta habitat out in space,

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Speaker 1: and then everybody's like, nah, I don't really want to

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Speaker 1: move there. Eh, it's like, wait, trillions of dollars, that

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Speaker 1: seems like something that's likely to happen.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: That's basically what Mark Zuckerberg is doing right now with

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Speaker 1: the metaverse.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, very very realistic.

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Speaker 4: I imagine when we start eating out into space, there

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Speaker 4: are going to be things that people like that work

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Speaker 4: and things that people like that don't work, and it'll

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Speaker 4: be you know, interesting to see how things pan out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there'll be all sorts of fascinating dead ends and

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of like abandoned apartment buildings and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of stuff in a way that I think will be

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Speaker 1: totally unpredictable, right, and so people make lots of money

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Speaker 1: and people who don't. And so I loved seeing that

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Speaker 1: in the book. It makes it feel very much like

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Speaker 1: you're actually visiting another universe. It does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's got multiple different things that failed, from like

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Speaker 3: biology experiments to engineering the experiments, and then you just

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Speaker 3: sort of see how you've learned from those failures and

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Speaker 3: you move forward.

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Speaker 4: And you know, one of the ways that they move

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Speaker 4: forward and learned from a failure was humans tried terrorforming

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Speaker 4: bars and just totally blew it, which is super interesting

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Speaker 4: to think about from the perspective of you know, current

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Speaker 4: things that are going on right now. But anyway, in

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Speaker 4: the book, humans totally blew their chance and destroyed things.

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Speaker 4: And now the alloys are taking care of the humans,

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Speaker 4: but humans aren't really leaving Earth that much because they've

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Speaker 4: sort of been contained.

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Speaker 3: And this is the story of a human.

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Speaker 4: Who actually gets the option or the opportunity to travel

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Speaker 4: out and show that humans can do the right thing.

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Speaker 4: We've learned our lesson. But you know, they're also upon

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Speaker 4: between all these different powerful forces. They've got these different

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Speaker 4: factions that are fighting that think humans should have the

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Speaker 4: chance and others that think that they shouldn't and then

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Speaker 4: you'll have to just see what happens.

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Speaker 1: That's right, no pressure, You're only standing in for all

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Speaker 1: of humanity, right right, right. So let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: science of the book A Lion little bit. She has

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Speaker 1: some really fascinating innovations here. She has these really deep

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Speaker 1: human computer alloys. This is more than just like I've

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Speaker 1: got something wired to my brain where I can control

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Speaker 1: a machine. These are people where they have organic and

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Speaker 1: metallic machine based elements really of their biology. She talks

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Speaker 1: about like programming these things, having these things really be

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Speaker 1: an outgrowth of their DNA. You're the biologist here, Do

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Speaker 1: you think that that's something we could have, you know,

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Speaker 1: in fifty years, one hundred years, five hundred years sort

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Speaker 1: of ever? Or is that implausible?

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Speaker 3: You know? I just don't know.

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Speaker 4: So, like as you might remember from Sunish, I really

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Speaker 4: hate putting dates on things, but you know, I will

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Speaker 4: say that it does seem like on the one hand,

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Speaker 4: biology is super complicated and traits are controlled by many,

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Speaker 4: many genes, and so if you're going to have part

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Speaker 4: of your body growing as like you know, a computer part,

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Speaker 4: that you're going to be able to control that sounds

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Speaker 4: very complicated. But you know, on the other hand, crisper

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Speaker 4: is an amazing tool that we sort of surprise came

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Speaker 4: across in the near future.

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Speaker 3: So maybe we'll stumble.

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Speaker 4: Upon more surprises that shorten the timeline on these sorts

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Speaker 4: of things. But I guess, if I had to guess,

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Speaker 4: if I'm going to have like a leaf blower arm,

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Speaker 4: I don't think my grandkids are going to have this

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Speaker 4: sort of technology.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say, but I could be wrong.

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Speaker 1: Is that your top choice? If you have some modification

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Speaker 1: you're like leaf blower arm? I could use it to

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Speaker 1: what brush my teeth to clean off that do the

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Speaker 1: dishes just like sort of blow all the dishes into

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Speaker 1: the sink.

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Speaker 4: I'm in my garage recording right now, and I just

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Speaker 4: looked at the leaf blower and so that would not

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Speaker 4: be my first choice.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of all those internet videos of people

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Speaker 1: blowing leaf blowers into their mouths. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: that's so fun for people. Anyway, one day, maybe we'll

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Speaker 1: have people with leaf blower arms and we'll see weird

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Speaker 1: movies about it. Another really fascinating aspect of the science

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Speaker 1: of this book is how she gets from star to star.

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Speaker 1: So in loss of science fiction novels, there are warp

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Speaker 1: drives or there's war there's sort of these standard solutions

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Speaker 1: to getting from start a star not having it take

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Speaker 1: thousands of years. But in this book, she has something

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Speaker 1: totally new. She has invented like another layer of physics

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Speaker 1: beneath what we know. So she's taken our universe. She

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Speaker 1: says below that there's something else. There's this thing called

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Speaker 1: a famite field, and there's particles in that field, which

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Speaker 1: we would call famatons, and we can use that field

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Speaker 1: as an energy source and as a way to manipulate

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Speaker 1: space time itself to get between stars. I thought that

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Speaker 1: was really clever.

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, now it's byrd to ask you, as a physicist,

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Speaker 4: is this plausible?

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Speaker 1: So in general, like, is it plausible that there's something

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Speaker 1: beneath space time? A completely different way to think about

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Speaker 1: the universe. Absolutely, Like the message that we send on

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Speaker 1: this podcast all the time is that we really just

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Speaker 1: don't understand the way the universe works, Like we don't

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Speaker 1: know what space time is. Is it actually built up

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Speaker 1: from like weird little quantum dots that are woven together

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Speaker 1: using theories and forces that we don't understand it. Certainly

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Speaker 1: could be we have no idea. We have this theory

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Speaker 1: of general relativity that tells us about space time, but

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Speaker 1: we suspect it's probably wrong because it's not quantum mechanical.

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Speaker 1: So we're always looking for that next layer of knowledge

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Speaker 1: about what's going on in the universe. And so it's

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Speaker 1: certainly possible that there's something going on deep down there

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Speaker 1: which could allow us, if we understood it, to control

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Speaker 1: space time in just this way. I mean, her description

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Speaker 1: of it is a little bit more like spiritual and

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Speaker 1: fantastical than scientific. You know, she has these ships and

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Speaker 1: they sort of will themselves. They interact with this famity

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Speaker 1: field through their minds, and they will themselves from star

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Speaker 1: to star. But could there be famity fields and famatons

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Speaker 1: and in a way that lets us travel. Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: that's totally possible.

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Speaker 4: So like when my grandkids have leaf flower arms, maybe

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Speaker 4: they'll be trapped into distant stars.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and then when they get there they can

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Speaker 1: use their leaf blower arms to like hover over the surface.

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Speaker 3: Right, So maybe it wasn't such a bad idea. It

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Speaker 3: seems like a very versatile attachment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I keep thinking of new applications for it all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, maybe we should see if we can

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Speaker 3: get a leaf blowing company to support the show. But

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Speaker 3: here's some commercial from someone who supports the show.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back and we're talking about the science

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Speaker 1: fiction universe of Meru, a novel by SB Diva about

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Speaker 1: post humanity where humans have become melded with machines and

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Speaker 1: formed a new race of humans, humans that are more

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Speaker 1: responsible than we are and allowed to travel through space

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Speaker 1: and do all sorts of things. And so, as we

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Speaker 1: usually do in the podcast, we were lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: speak to the author of this book here about her process.

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Speaker 1: So here's our interview with SB Diva. So it's my

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Speaker 1: pleasure to welcome back to the podcast SB Diva, the

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Speaker 1: author of this wonderful book, Mary that we've just been

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Speaker 1: talking about. Thanks very much for joining us again.

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Speaker 7: Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to

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Speaker 7: be here and talking about this book.

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Speaker 1: So you're the first author we've actually had back on

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Speaker 1: the podcast for a second round. And usually we ask

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Speaker 1: a series of silly questions to get people warmed up,

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Speaker 1: but we've already asked you about your thoughts about Star

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Speaker 1: trek transporters. So I have a different question for you

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Speaker 1: to get us oriented in your space of philosophy of science,

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Speaker 1: which is in your view, is Star Wars fantasy or

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Speaker 1: science fiction?

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good one.

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Speaker 7: I'm going to do a why not both and say

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Speaker 7: there is a subgenre called science fantasy, and Star Wars

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Speaker 7: falls squarely into that. For me?

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Speaker 1: Is that because there are elements of it that are

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Speaker 1: sort of like hardcore science and also elements that are

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Speaker 1: sort of like left unexplained a little bit magical.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 7: I mean, notwithstanding the Mediclorians, the rest of the force

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Speaker 7: is very mystical, right. I thought the original stood a

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Speaker 7: little better that way than trying to explain it with science,

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Speaker 7: especially as a retcon. So, yeah, science fantasy is you know,

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Speaker 7: things like dragons in space. There are books out there

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Speaker 7: that involve this very topic, things like Binti by netdi

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Speaker 7: ocarfor you know, that involves space travel, astrolabes, but also

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Speaker 7: certain forms of indigenous magic. So it's a very why

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Speaker 7: not both the genre and I feel like that's one

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Speaker 7: of the reasons so many people love Star Wars, right,

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Speaker 7: is because you have all the cool tech, but then

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Speaker 7: you have the mystical force, and you have magic as well.

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Speaker 1: I must be one of the very few people who

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Speaker 1: thought it was cool to try to explain the force

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Speaker 1: in terms of science, because you know, that's like kind

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Speaker 1: of who I am. I'm like, how does that work?

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Speaker 1: You know, what is the microscopic process that makes that happen?

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Speaker 1: So I was kind of into that. I was like, oh, cool,

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Speaker 1: And then I discovered it was very uncool to like that.

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Speaker 7: I think if it had been that way from the start,

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Speaker 7: I would have been on board with it. But trying to,

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Speaker 7: like I said, trying to shoehorn it in after the

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Speaker 7: fact just felt kind of forced to me.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll try to get our science in

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Speaker 1: draft one every time as well.

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Speaker 7: From yes, for sure.

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Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about your book, which Kelly

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Speaker 1: and I both read and both really enjoyed, and the

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Speaker 1: focus of the book is on this sort of post

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Speaker 1: human or transhuman I'm not sure what the right word is,

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Speaker 1: experience far in the future, when it's more than just

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Speaker 1: like biological humans, as humans have all sorts of modifications

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Speaker 1: that are really quite different from the humans that we

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Speaker 1: know that you call alloys in your book, tell us

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Speaker 1: about your inspiration, What made you write this book, Where

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Speaker 1: did the idea come from? What's exciting to you about

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Speaker 1: post humanity?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so, first off, I will say I prefer post

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Speaker 7: humans to transhuman only because transhumanism is a thing now

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Speaker 7: and it's particular philosophy about improving humankind. And this book

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Speaker 7: is very intentionally interrogating that very idea, right, which is

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Speaker 7: can and should we even talk about improvement when it

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Speaker 7: comes to biology, humanity, life in general. And so the

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Speaker 7: idea for this book, especially for the Alloys, was that

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Speaker 7: I did want to carry some of the themes of

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Speaker 7: genetic engineering and cybernetic enhancements for my first novel, Machinehood,

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Speaker 7: but much much further.

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Speaker 2: Into the future.

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Speaker 7: You know, we talk a lot today in the media

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Speaker 7: about designer babies and the ethics of genetics, and I thought, okay, well,

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Speaker 7: let's assume that genetic editing is happening right, the genies

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Speaker 7: out of the bottle, and let's say that one day,

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Speaker 7: just like we write software code, we can build DNA

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Speaker 7: up from scratch. And that's not as hypothetical as it sounds.

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Speaker 7: We've already done that with yeast. So there are yeast

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Speaker 7: legos that people in the lab play with today, and

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Speaker 7: so you know, a thousand years from now, I don't

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Speaker 7: think it's much of a stretch to say that we'll

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Speaker 7: have the technology to do that with our chromosomes. And

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Speaker 7: at that point, I think, you know, it really begs

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Speaker 7: the question of what kind of DNA is allowed, what

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Speaker 7: kind of beings might exist, you know, and why? And

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Speaker 7: so this book explores a lot of those questions.

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Speaker 4: I'm really interested in the designer baby's angle, and so

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Speaker 4: I thought it was really interesting that, like, right at

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Speaker 4: the beginning of the book sort of you start with

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Speaker 4: an interesting ethical question here. And so in my mind,

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Speaker 4: people are more comfortable with thinking about designer babies when

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Speaker 4: you are tinkering to make an improvement to make their

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Speaker 4: lives better. But in the book there's some tinkering that

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Speaker 4: is negative, but maybe.

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Speaker 3: It'll end up being better at some point. Like what

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Speaker 3: do you think the future looks like in terms of

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Speaker 3: our ethical sort of roads? Do you think at one

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Speaker 3: point will feel comfortable making these tinkerings that might not

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Speaker 3: make someone better?

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Speaker 7: I think we're already making tinkerings that have the potential

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Speaker 7: to not make someone better or perhaps in a more

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Speaker 7: nuanced way better here worse there right. Again, it can

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Speaker 7: be a combination of things, and as we know, gene

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Speaker 7: expression and how it translates to your health, your behavior,

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Speaker 7: your biochemistry can be pretty complicated. You know, certain things

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Speaker 7: rely on one or two genes, but a lot of

443
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 7: other things rely on many, and the combination of how

444
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 7: those different genes are.

445
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: Expressed in your body.

446
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 7: And so I don't think we have the tools right

447
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 7: now to model that in detail enough to know what

448
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 7: we're doing. But assuming at some point we do, I

449
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 7: think the risk of doing it in an unintentional way,

450
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 7: like without very specific rules and regulations is that, yes,

451
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 7: this idea of making someone's life better can land us

452
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 7: on a very steep, slippery slope to eugenics. So upfront

453
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 7: I wanted to establish that in this world they've.

454
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 2: Gone through that.

455
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 7: Actually, you know, in the history of Meru there's the

456
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,959
Speaker 7: directed mutation catastrophe, which is when things went bad for

457
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 7: life because we tinkered a little too much and we

458
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 7: oversimplified actually to where genetic diversity was reduced and that

459
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 7: ended up working against us from natural selection factors. So

460
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 7: they come to the realization that a you have to

461
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 7: allow for trance mutations in order to just have innovation

462
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 7: in general, and b you have to allow for various

463
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 7: types of diseases and disabilities to exist in the population

464
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 7: as well. You do your best to accommodate them and

465
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 7: make their lives good, and you give them the option

466
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 7: of treatment if it really can't be good. But you

467
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 7: don't eliminate it from the gene pool, because you never

468
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 7: know when the environment might demand that those genes exist,

469
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 7: and we might find it useful to have people who

470
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 7: have expressed those so that we understand how they work.

471
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 7: And I think that plies today actually just as well

472
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 7: as a thousand years from now. It's just that we

473
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:05,719
Speaker 7: don't necessarily have the tools.

474
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 1: So that's a very good argument from a practical point

475
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: of view, like we can't predict, we can't model, we

476
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 1: don't know the impact of any decision, and also we

477
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: don't know what the future will need from us as

478
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: a gene pool in terms of diversity to survive. But

479
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: what about the moral side of it? Can we drill

480
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: down on that? Are you suggesting that people don't have

481
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: the right to do this kind of thing or that

482
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: it's a bad idea from a policy standpoint? Can we

483
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: make that decision for everybody? I mean suggesting we should

484
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: like not allow anybody to do this for their own babies.

485
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 7: I think what we have to sit down very carefully

486
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 7: and consider what rules and regulations we're going to build

487
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 7: around this, and it's going to be you know, as complicated,

488
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 7: if not more complicated than something like the FDA regulating drugs. Right.

489
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 7: It's there's a lot of parallels.

490
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: There's a difference, I would say, between.

491
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 7: Gene therapy, which is something you change in gene expression

492
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 7: or certain types of cells in the body, but that

493
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 7: are not necessarily psychotic, that aren't going to be hereditary, right,

494
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 7: So you're not necessarily changing the genome, you're not changing

495
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 7: the eggs or the sperm, and so I think there's

496
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 7: an important distinction to be made there as well. So parents,

497
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 7: or in the case of METO, a person when they

498
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 7: become a consenting adult, can choose to have gene therapy

499
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 7: to correct for certain conditions that they're not happy living with, right,

500
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 7: And I think that absolutely everyone should have that choice.

501
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 7: Whether parents should have that choice for their babies is

502
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 7: another ethical argument, you know, moral or ethical argument that

503
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 7: we're having already today. Right, the deaf communities having it

504
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 7: cited communities and uncited communities are having it right, anything

505
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 7: where it's hereditary but livable, like you can still have

506
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 7: a good quality of life. You know, we're having these

507
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 7: conversations with autism, with down syndrome, like who gets to decide,

508
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 7: you know, whether or not they want to raise a

509
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 7: child with these conditions? Right, So there's important considerations for

510
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 7: the parents, for the children, and then there's the social considerations,

511
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 7: and then there's the species wide considerations and so admity.

512
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 7: I was really trying to tackle that that final scale, right,

513
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 7: which I don't think a lot of people are talking

514
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 7: about today because again we don't have that capacity right now,

515
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 7: but species wide survival and people who've paid close attention

516
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 7: to certain animal and insect population studies have noticed that

517
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 7: things that sound good as adaptive behaviors, when taken to

518
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 7: the extreme, can often lead to species extinction, right, aggressive

519
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 7: mate selection for example, or certain types of decorative mutations

520
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 7: that you know, take into the extreme end up reducing

521
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 7: survivability overall. And so that I think, you know, is

522
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 7: a consideration a little bit more for the future compared

523
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 7: to parents' children and family and society, which are a

524
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 7: little bit more pressing. I would never arrogate the power

525
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 7: to myself to sit here and say that I know best.

526
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 7: I certainly don't, And I think this is the sort

527
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 7: of thing that, you know, we need to tap millions

528
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 7: of people from across the world and attempt to achieve

529
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 7: some kind of global consensus ideally on.

530
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: Where we go with this.

531
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: I totally respect that we don't know what we're doing

532
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: in this area, and that makes it terrifying, and it

533
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: feels like a bad idea to give people power to

534
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: make these decisions which could have crazy consequences. But I

535
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: also feel like we're kind of already in that situation.

536
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: I mean, as a parent, I'm making decisions all the time.

537
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: They're going to totally influence the path of my child's life.

538
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: How to educate them, where to raise them up, how

539
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: to solve this problem, how to deal with this discipline issue.

540
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: I certainly don't know what I'm doing, and I'm probably

541
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: missing them up in all sorts of ways I can

542
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: even imagine, And I see other people making choices that

543
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: I think verge on the edge of child abuse. You know,

544
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: how can you teach your kids those things about the universe?

545
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: That's just wrong? And so I guess you know. To me,

546
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: the argument is like, well, at least we're limiting our

547
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: power a little bit, we're bounding ourselves. We're doing the

548
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: stuff that we've been doing for thousands of years, and

549
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: we're still here. So I guess in a sense, it's

550
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: a conservative viewpoint to say, like, let's not give ourselves

551
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: too much power too quickly to change the direction of

552
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: the whole species.

553
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: Another change that you allow to happen in your universe

554
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 4: is you have these human machine hybrids. I'm interested in

555
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 4: brain computer interfaces and all these various ways that we're

556
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 4: sort of augmenting ourselves with technology these days.

557
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 3: Do you think these kinds of human machine hybrids are

558
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: the future? And how near term is this future?

559
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: If so?

560
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 7: I guess my hopeful vision of the future is that

561
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 7: we will have a spectrum of beings, you know, everything

562
00:27:53,240 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 7: from Homo sapiens to artificially intelligent machines right that are sentient,

563
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 7: conscious and have full rights as individuals. And you know

564
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 7: those who are blends in between with MEDU and with

565
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 7: the alloys. And the reason I call them alloys is

566
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 7: that they organically through their DNA, express parts of their

567
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 7: bodies that are not purely organic right, So it's not

568
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 7: just carbon based. So they have silicon, they have heavy metals,

569
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 7: but the instruction set for how these things are organized

570
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 7: in their bodies comes still from their chromosomal sets. And

571
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 7: this is something I think we're definitely going to have

572
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 7: the capacity to do going forward.

573
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: There's already a lot of bleedover.

574
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 7: Between DNA and silicon, so I see no reason why

575
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 7: we couldn't get a lot more interesting with that going forward.

576
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 7: And again, we have life on Earth that show us

577
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 7: how some of these things can be done, so we

578
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 7: can already steal creatively from what we have around us.

579
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 7: And so yeah, I don't see any reason why we

580
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 7: couldn't coexist, right, Like, that's my hope, as past fist

581
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 7: an optimist, that we will coexist with a variety of

582
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 7: forms of consciousness, some which are living and carbon based.

583
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 2: And some which aren't.

584
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: And so tell us more about this idea you developed

585
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: of humans traveling inside alloys. This concept of ships that

586
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: are essentially living beings that have as you say this

587
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: like non organic component that could travel through space. That's

588
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: a really cool and creative idea. Haven't seen somewhere else where?

589
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: Did that come from?

590
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 7: That came from me wanting a cool and different way

591
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 7: of space travel. I'm a very idea driven writer, and

592
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 7: so when I sat down to envision this, I knew

593
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 7: I wanted it to be a space opera, and I thought,

594
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 7: what can I do with space travel that hasn't been

595
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 7: done that I have seen? And it's like, we've seen

596
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 7: sentient spaceships, right, We've seen all the old school spaceships

597
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 7: from the previous century that are warp drives, etc. Ion

598
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 7: drives that are just very complicated machines, and we've even.

599
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: Seen living spacecraft.

600
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 7: Again, I will raise the example of Binti, but also

601
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 7: in Escaping Exodus by Niki Drayden. Some of these I

602
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 7: haven't actually read them, but I remember from a blurb

603
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 7: one of these like dragons in spaceships type things. Right,

604
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 7: So we've considered having creatures that can transport us in space.

605
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: So I guess the natural progression.

606
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 7: To me was, well, why not people, you know, especially

607
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 7: if we can genetically engineer them. We know whales can

608
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 7: get pretty big, we know dinosaurs can get even bigger,

609
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 7: and certainly some of those animals were large enough to

610
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 7: have a small human being inside them, right, or even

611
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 7: a regular sized human being so then it's just a

612
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 7: matter of in this magical thousand years from now genetically

613
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 7: engineered future, creating a person who has organs that can

614
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 7: carry smaller people inside them and also has organs that

615
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 7: allow them to travel through space to absorb energy from

616
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 7: sunlight to basically meditate their way across interstellar distances.

617
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: I definitely went a little, you know, maybe.

618
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 7: Arguably quite a bit towards space fantasy with this, Like

619
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 7: I came up with science ish reasons and ways that

620
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 7: all of these things could happen. But certainly there's no

621
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 7: such thing as a family feel today, right, And there's

622
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 7: no such thing as reality transits where you can you

623
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 7: can see all of space time in your mind and

624
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 7: decide where you want to go.

625
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: I wish, yes, right, But I definitely got very Jonah

626
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: and the space whale vibes from that sort of structure. Yeah,

627
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: very cool.

628
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: I loved how much you thought through what it would

629
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: be like to live in an alley. So my first

630
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: thought was like, oh my gosh, if I was living

631
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 4: inside of someone else, every step I took I would

632
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 4: worry about and like private you know, a person who

633
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 4: has social anxiety and needs them alone time, and how

634
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: do you get alone time when you are like living

635
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: in the person who is transporting you? And and I like, yeah,

636
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: how long did it take to think through all of

637
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 4: the like, you know, what would be the social implications

638
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 4: of talking to the vehicle.

639
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: That's taking you from place to place and not being

640
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: able to escape.

641
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, before we get into that, I do want to

642
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 7: point out that females are already vehicles for other people.

643
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: That right, like I was.

644
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 5: Suddenly like, yeah, there's there's this one other obvious parallel

645
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 5: in my mind where it's like, yes, we can already

646
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 5: carry people around inside as granted they are people who

647
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 5: are highly dependent on us and symbiotic or parasitic in

648
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 5: some ways, and for a long time are arguably not

649
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 5: people yet and then they.

650
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 4: Kick you and it's uncomfortable, and then I guess that's

651
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: what made me think about, like, you know, if you're

652
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: walking around inside, like is it uncapable to have those footsteps?

653
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: And that definitely was on my mind.

654
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 7: You know, in late stages of pregnancy, it's pretty clear

655
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 7: that there is a person in there with a will.

656
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: And a lot of punching and really bad sleep habits.

657
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: So definitely, you know, in.

658
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 7: Thinking about transportation in general. Right, And once I had

659
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 7: the main character Gianthe inside the other main character of

660
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 7: Aha having this chamber, I was like, she's an adult,

661
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 7: She's going to need some privacy in there, right, And

662
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 7: they're also going to need ways to communicate, and it's

663
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 7: got to not be squishy, like I think it would

664
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 7: be really disconcerting as a mammal to constantly be in

665
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 7: an environment that's warm and squishy. Like maybe eventually we

666
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 7: would adapt and get used to it, but you know,

667
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 7: we definitely prefer our firmer surfaces where we have always

668
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 7: constructed our houses and footing are pretending waterbeds don't exist.

669
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 7: I mean they do, but you wouldn't want your entire

670
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 7: floor to be a waterbed, right like.

671
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: You could spaceship I mean I read that in the seventies, right.

672
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 7: No, you're yeah, well, there is that story where there's

673
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 7: a male space traveler inside a highly sexual, very very

674
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 7: soft spacecraft.

675
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: And I'm just I'm blanking on the name.

676
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 7: It'll come to me at some point, or hopefully one

677
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 7: of your listeners will know what I'm talking about. I

678
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 7: very distinctly remember that story because wow, that was quite creative,

679
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 7: and so you know, putting all that together and thinking

680
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 7: about again, what examples do we have today on Earth?

681
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, we have.

682
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 7: Snail shells, right, shells are exuded from the soft part

683
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 7: of the snail, the calcium, and so why not be

684
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 7: able to you know, exude it the same way internally, right,

685
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 7: just like and we have bones obviously too, right, So

686
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 7: you just need to map it into something that's more

687
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 7: spheroidal shape. Right, So then the human being can be

688
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 7: in there moving around relatively comfortably, and the alloy pilot

689
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 7: that's carrying them also will experience less discomfort.

690
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 2: Hopefully.

691
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: Let's just hope nobody sits on their bladder, right. All right,

692
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: we have lots more questions for our author and guests,

693
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: but first we have to take a quick break. All right,

694
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: we're back and we're talking to Divia, author of Mehru,

695
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: about the science of her fictional universe. Something I really

696
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: enjoyed in the book is the angle where the alloies

697
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: are sort of the grown ups. Humans are sort of

698
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: like have misbehaved in the past and made some big mistakes,

699
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: and the alloies are sort of like now they're to

700
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: keep them in charge. It makes the humans somehow feel

701
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, almost subhuman in comparison, and specifically in

702
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: your book, human have attempted to terraform Mars and ended

703
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: up destroying it in the process. So people are talking

704
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: about terraforming Mars. Elon Musk has plans to live there,

705
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: and he talks about like nuking the polar ice caps

706
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: to release additional atmosphere. What are your thoughts for some

707
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: of the wild proposals for how to go about terraforming Mars.

708
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: Are you afraid we're going to end up living your novel?

709
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 7: I don't know that afraid is the right word there.

710
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 7: I certainly see the possibility of hitting tipping points in

711
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 7: terraforming that we don't even know exist right law of

712
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 7: unintended consequences, And again, we don't have good enough simulations, modeling,

713
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 7: and understanding of geophysics to be one hundred percent confident

714
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 7: of what we're doing. I have similar concerns with a

715
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 7: lot of the atmospheric engineering that they're talking about right

716
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 7: now to reduce global warming, right like spraying silicates and

717
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 7: aerosols and all kinds of things in the upper atmosphere

718
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 7: to try to reflect sunlight, like, okay, we could do,

719
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 7: and there are models, But how confident are we you

720
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 7: know that these aren't going to have bad repercressions down

721
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 7: the line. But at the end of the day, we

722
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 7: are human beings today. We are not the human beings

723
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 7: of Meru who were properly chastised and actually chose to

724
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 7: be confined on earth, untreated in some ways like a

725
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 7: children right to be well taken care of and still

726
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 7: live very free, good lives, but let go of a

727
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 7: lot of human nature and allow their genes to be altered.

728
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 7: We're not there, obviously. We're here today, and in today's world,

729
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 7: the dominant factor is still survival and expansion and consumption.

730
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 7: And then you know, as long as those are the

731
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 7: things that are driving our social values and our progress

732
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 7: and our ideas of progress, I don't know that we're

733
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 7: going to stop the elon Musks of tomorrow from taking

734
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 7: action right and maybe to some extent, damn the consequences,

735
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 7: because you know, we did that with the industrial age,

736
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 7: and I don't think there are huge regrets with the

737
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 7: level of industry and technology that we have today, but

738
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 7: I hope that there are at least some regrets in

739
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 7: how we got here right and the level of side

740
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 7: effects pollution, climate change, and everything else that we are

741
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 7: now dealing with and having rushed into it without thinking

742
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 7: it through.

743
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 3: So you mentioned that at one point in the future

744
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: you're hoping that there'll be sentient machines that will have

745
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: full rights with humans with artificial intelligence like just booming lately.

746
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: What do you think the future looks like? There?

747
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 4: Are we close? Is that going to happen in our lifetime?

748
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 4: And like, what is the line at which the machines

749
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 4: should be getting rights?

750
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, that that's not a line. Unfortunately, it's a zone

751
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 7: or even just an infinite continuum. And unfortunately, I suspect

752
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 7: that our incentive structure is in the wrong places for

753
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 7: giving machines rights, and we're probably going to get to

754
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 7: it far later than we should. Daniel knows from my

755
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 7: previous novel Machinehood. I got into this quite a bit

756
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 7: more there, into this exact question of you know, how

757
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 7: will we know when they're sentient? Will we want to

758
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 7: admit to ourselves when they're sentient when it's not to

759
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 7: you know, to our advantage to do so?

760
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: Right?

761
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 7: And I think that's where some of the existential fears

762
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 7: come in that people like Stephen Hawking have expressed that, well,

763
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 7: the ais are at some point going to be sentient

764
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 7: and intelligence enough to like rise up and either destroy

765
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 7: us or claim personhood whether we like it or not.

766
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 7: And you know, possibly violence will ensue, because that's what

767
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 7: biological creations always do. I'm not convinced that violence has

768
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 7: to ensue for artificial intelligences. I'm not convinced we know

769
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 7: what sentience and consciousness is today. We don't have good,

770
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 7: testable definitions of any of these things, and they're very fuzzy,

771
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 7: and it's sort of like, what was I forget who

772
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 7: said the quote about pornography and obscenity that I know

773
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 7: it when I see it, right, there's very much that

774
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 7: kind of attitude. And yet I think you push people

775
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 7: on that and suddenly they're like, oh wait, you know,

776
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 7: is an ant sentient? Is it conscious? Does the ant

777
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 7: deserve rights just because it's less sentient and less conscious

778
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 7: than us? Like, at what point do things with some

779
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 7: iota of that deserve rights? Are plants? Sentient plants are

780
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 7: definitely conscious. We have experiments that have anesthetized plants and

781
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 7: put them to sleep, so there is some kind of

782
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 7: consciousness there.

783
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: And that's where with Metu.

784
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 7: I decided to step past all of this into a

785
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 7: world in which everybody grants that there are degrees of

786
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 7: consciousness and sentience and also livingness. Right, what does it

787
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 7: mean to be alive? What is a life form versus

788
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 7: non life? If you have an android that is using

789
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 7: cultured human skin, but everything else inside is you know,

790
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 7: metal machine parts, is that android now biological because some

791
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 7: parts of it, you know, is it alive or is

792
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 7: it non living? Right?

793
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 6: Like?

794
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 7: It gets complicated so fast, And that's where I personally

795
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 7: prefer that we err on the side of too much

796
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 7: rather than too little. Like it's always better to give

797
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 7: too many rights than not enough.

798
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 6: It's not historically, how exactly exactly historically we've we've really

799
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 6: fallen on that, and so I'm hoping that going forward,

800
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 6: you know, we don't make that same mistake.

801
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 1: So I asked you earlier your thoughts on whether Star

802
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 1: Wars was fantasy or science fiction, because I was also

803
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: very curious about the physics of your interstellar travel. I

804
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: love that you invented a new way to do this.

805
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: You know, I've read so many scientific novels. I felt

806
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: like I'd seen everything for how to get from Star

807
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: to star in less than a zillion years. So I

808
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: love that you have a new idea. And my question

809
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: is how much of the science did you develop that

810
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: of these family fields and famatons. Did you do a

811
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: whole like physics background only the tip of the iceberg

812
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: ended up in your novel, or did you want to

813
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: leave it a little bit fantastical.

814
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: For the family fields. I gave it some thought.

815
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 7: I kind of took what I know about physics and

816
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 7: my own physics background, and figured, you know, we could

817
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 7: have something operating on scales different than what we can

818
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 7: measure today, and we can certainly have physics that we

819
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 7: aren't aware of today a thousand years from now.

820
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: I guarantee you.

821
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 7: That we will right like that, you know, I will

822
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 7: put bet money. I like my science to fit my story,

823
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 7: so it's a very symbiotic relationship. And so I wanted

824
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 7: alloy pilots to be able to fly through interplanetary scales

825
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 7: of space, right and ultimately even intertellar and have a

826
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 7: way to gain momentum from these famiti fields, right. I

827
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 7: wanted it to be an energy source so that they

828
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 7: didn't have to use fuel, so that there wasn't a

829
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 7: need to mine consume and pollute, right, Like, I wanted

830
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 7: to break that cycle. And I'm sufficiently aware of current

831
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 7: physics at least the solar power and light isn't going

832
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 7: to be enough, right, So I came up with these

833
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 7: fields that have gradients. And what I liked about that

834
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 7: was that in my mind, you know, sort of like

835
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 7: when we draw space time and we draw curvatures, that

836
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 7: it's an easy way to give readers something to grab

837
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 7: onto that these pilots are going, you know, upslope or downslope, right,

838
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 7: So it's something that we can relate to as human

839
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 7: readers as Okay, when we go down we get faster,

840
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 7: and when we go up we go slower.

841
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: So we have this in.

842
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 7: Other physical fields. It's just that we don't necessarily always

843
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 7: talk about it in those terms. So I decided, yes,

844
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 7: there are there are gradients, there are things that they

845
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 7: can measure. So I think I a lot of that

846
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 7: in the book. But I tried to do it in

847
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 7: a more fun way rather than like, and now I

848
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 7: will give you a physics lecture I made up.

849
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: You know, are you implying physics lectures are not fun?

850
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: Is that what you just did?

851
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 7: I imply that they're not necessarily fun to read in

852
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 7: the middle of a science fiction novel, my caveat. But

853
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 7: you know, even still, I've had readers comment that there's

854
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 7: too much terminology and that it's too complicated in science

855
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 7: because I think when you start throwing around where it's

856
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 7: like fields and gradients, some people are already like, I

857
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 7: don't know what these mean, and now I'm confused, versus

858
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 7: readers who you know, maybe have some understanding and familiarity

859
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 7: with those concepts. Right, So obviously it depends on the audience.

860
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 1: Well, I find that most science fiction is really technology fiction,

861
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 1: like here's some new widget, or here's some new what's

862
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: it that does this thing? Very few actually dig into

863
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: the science and really write science fiction. And in your book,

864
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: I felt like I was in another universe that was

865
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: in a universe where the science was fundamentally different from

866
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: our universe, and that was exciting to me. I was like,

867
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,959
Speaker 1: I want to know more, and how does this work?

868
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: And I'm going to dig into this and stuff, and

869
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: so yeah, I wanted more. I wanted math.

870
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: I did want math.

871
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 4: I thought you hit the right the right tone, So like,

872
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 4: I don't I'm not a physicist. I know a little

873
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 4: bit of physics, and I thought you explained it well

874
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 4: enough that I thought, for a moment, gosh, I don't

875
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 4: remember you said specifically. I thought, I don't remember Daniel

876
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 4: ever talking about family fields, which makes me think that

877
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 4: maybe this is a thing in this world that doesn't exist.

878
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 4: But I'm going with it, and like anyway, I thought

879
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 4: it very nicely blended into the world. I believed it.

880
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 4: I wasn't sure, but I didn't need that.

881
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 7: That's awesome, And I will tell you, Kelly, You're not

882
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 7: the only one to think that I wasn't inventing physics

883
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 7: for this book, to which I made a little like

884
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 7: oh no face, like somebody going out there like, why

885
00:45:54,719 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 7: can't we build family spaceships today? Because I'm not real.

886
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: Sorry, you don't know, it's not real, right, That's.

887
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 7: True, It's true, it could, And I will admit I

888
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 7: was inspired by dark matter and dark energy and that

889
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 7: something needs to be accelerating our universe outwards.

890
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: So why not Fama de fields? You know?

891
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your process of

892
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: writing the book. Are you a plotter or a panther

893
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: or somewhere in between.

894
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 7: These days, I'm definitely one hundred percent plotter. I learned

895
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 7: my lesson with my first novel that a loose outline

896
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 7: isn't isn't necessarily the best idea for me and for

897
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 7: the way I like to write, mostly because I hate revising.

898
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 7: I much prefer the drafting stage, and so the more

899
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 7: you can plan out, the better.

900
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: I will say that actual.

901
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 7: Plot as a plotter is my weak point. I'm much

902
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 7: better at world building. I enjoy it. I love thinking

903
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 7: about my characters and their interactions and story and themes.

904
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 7: And then when it comes to the actual like nitty

905
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 7: gritty what happens next, and just steal liberally from other stories,

906
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 7: and then because of all the other stuff, it changes

907
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 7: enough that it becomes my own plot. But I found that, yeah,

908
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 7: I'm not very good.

909
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 2: At inventing my own plot.

910
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 7: Maybe that will change with experience, but for now, I

911
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 7: encourage all artists to steal liberally from other artists as

912
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 7: long as they then, let's say, chisel away until it

913
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 7: becomes their own.

914
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: My husband is an artist, and he agrees with that completely.

915
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: He says it all the time. So I heard you're

916
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 3: working at a sequel. Can you tell us anything about that?

917
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 7: I can. There's already pre orders up, so I'm definitely

918
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 7: committed to this sequel. Without giving too much away for

919
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 7: readers of Menu, I will say that whereas book one

920
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 7: is largely a space adventure, as I'm sure they could

921
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 7: tell from our conversation, book two concentrates more on adventure

922
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 7: around the globe and my very loose elevator pitches. It's

923
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 7: a bit around the world in eighty days and a

924
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 7: bit Greta Thunberg's you know, eco challenge to travel with

925
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 7: minimal footprints, and I kind of mash those two together

926
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 7: into this world, and there's a time skip, there's a

927
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 7: different set of characters that book two focuses on. So

928
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 7: it's not really a direct sequel so much as you know,

929
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 7: part of the series set in this world.

930
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 3: And when can we have that in our hands? Do

931
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: we know yet?

932
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 7: No, because this author is going to be late. We

933
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 7: were supposed to have it in the world sometime in

934
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 7: February of twenty twenty four, but I'm not super happy

935
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 7: with my manuscript and I would like to be before

936
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 7: I get it out there, so it'll it'll probably be

937
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 7: if I had to guess summer, summer or early fall

938
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 7: twenty twenty four hopefully, But like I said, you can

939
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 7: pre order it today. So if you love book one

940
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 7: that much, you know, definitely show your support for book

941
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 7: two because publishers like to see that maybe there will

942
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 7: be a book three.

943
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: I love that you're already selling copies even though it's

944
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: not finished, right, it's finished ish, finished ish, Like everything

945
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: every part of my life is finished.

946
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 7: Is yes, I've gotten to write the words the end.

947
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 7: So there is a manuscript. It's just you know, it

948
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 7: needs a little bit more than spit and polish.

949
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: Let's say, all right, well, thanks very much for joining us.

950
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: Tell us where people can find a copy of me Room.

951
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 7: Hopefully anywhere books are sold. In most of the English

952
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 7: speaking world and some parts of the non English speaking world.

953
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 7: You can find it on audio, ebook and trade paperback.

954
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 7: I will always encourage people to go to bookshop or

955
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 7: their local indie bookstore just to support, especially if you're

956
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 7: buying print books. I will also say, if you're going

957
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 7: to buy it for your kindle, starting on May first,

958
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 7: it's going to be on discount. I think it's part

959
00:49:55,400 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 7: of Asian and Pacific Islander Month in America, so at

960
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 7: least in the US you'll be able to get it

961
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 7: a little bit cheaper if ebook is your jam.

962
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks very much for coming on. We

963
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: really enjoyed chatting with you about all these hard questions.

964
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and you know I love hard questions.

965
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: All right, that was super fun interview, Kelly. What do

966
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: you think about that?

967
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: I had so much fun and I can't wait for

968
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: the next.

969
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: Book me too. I'm just glad that there are people

970
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: out there thinking about other universes and what it's like

971
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: to be human in them and the politics of it,

972
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: and then setting out compelling stories that entertain me for hours.

973
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm just glad I live in the universe where science

974
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: fiction exists.

975
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: Me too.

976
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 4: And I'm also glad that there are authors who can

977
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 4: have positive takes on how humanity is going to move

978
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 4: forward eventually.

979
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 3: I like positive books.

980
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: And she was also realistic. She wasn't promising she was

981
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: going to finish the next novel anytime soon.

982
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, like that about her too. I'm sure my

983
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 3: editor would like me to channel set a little.

984
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: Bit more in the future, all right, And thanks to

985
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: all of our listeners for coming along on this ride

986
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: into another universe. We have a lot of fun in

987
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: these episodes. And I hear that a lot of you

988
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: enjoy listening to them. So thanks again everyone for listening,

989
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: and thanks Kelly for joining us today, Thanks.

990
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 3: For having had a lot of fun.

991
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 1: Bye everyone, all right, everyone tune in next time. Thanks

992
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the

993
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 1: Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

994
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

995
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.