WEBVTT - The Science of Necrophilia 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.200 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from housetop works 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:15.320 dot com. Hey, you wasn't to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.880 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager. So 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:19.919 this is gonna be a repeat episode, but we wanted 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:21.920 to give you a little bit of an introduction to it. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.760 This is from about a year ago when Robert and 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.800 I did an episode on the science of necrophilia, and 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:30.680 I'm going to just throw it out there, this is 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.000 one of my favorite episodes that we've ever recorded. Yeah, 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.280 this one is a really fun topic to research. I 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.080 thought that the episode came together perfectly and we we 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.320 were were able to demystify the topic takes something that 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.199 is often seen is just you know, utterly repellent. You 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.320 just you don't even want to look closer. Maybe you 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.920 maybe you do, but in a gruesome car exc But 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.479 but when you strip away the human complexities that the 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.080 actual science is really fascinating as well. Yeah, and I 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:57.640 just you know, want to know, we talked about this 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.200 up front in the episode. I believe, but don't don't 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:01.840 think that this is going to be some like gross 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.040 out fest or anything like that. We approach this the 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:05.959 way we do all of our other episodes with a 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.839 lot of research, and uh, with a modicum of dignity, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.840 I guess is what I would say, the same monicum 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.920 of dignity that we we we dust off for every episode. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.199 Yeah yeah, but like organic food. Yeah exactly. So without 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:26.960 further ado, let's jump into it, all right, So we're 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.840 gonna start off by just by discussing necrophilia in in 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.800 the animal kingdom. I mean generally, that's the way it 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.200 goes with these things. We can talk about a simpler 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.759 model of what's going on with the animals before we 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.640 dare throw in the complications of the human mind and 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.080 human culture. And what I was the most shocked about 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.200 with this as we did the research was how prevalent 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.600 it is. I mean, We've got at least what like 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.320 five or six examples of different animals h that practice 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.800 necrophilia today, and I'm sure there are dozens more out 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.440 there that have just not been cataloged. And because we'll 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.720 find with the penguin, it was and then that research 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.840 was redacted basically for cultural reasons. It was just too 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.880 shocking to share. I mean, but essentially you can sum 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.440 it all up in a bumper sticker like, necrophilia happens, 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.360 and yes, and the more you you just sort of 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.440 acclimatized to that reality, the easier going everything else. Is 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.200 that it's not something that is not necessarily an act 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.919 that is just a defilement before the gods, as much 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.799 as a thing that occurs in the natural order of things, 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.760 and often as an accident. But accidents happen, and uh, 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.880 and then human culture just makes it a little more complicated. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.440 You know. What just occurred to me, Robert, is that 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:46.120 we're assuming that our audience automatically knows what necrophilia is. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.880 That's true. Yeah, so maybe we should just, i mean 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:53.040 throw out a very basic definition which is in fact, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:54.920 and this was one of the things that surprised me 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.680 doing the research. In the case of necrophilia, it is 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.919 not the act of having sex with a dead body, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.920 with a corpse. It is the desire to right, Yeah, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.239 just the desire to alone. The fantasy of necrophilia is 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.880 enough to classify one as a necrophilia um, and the 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.880 term itself is actually pretty new. Necrophilia is an entirely 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.600 nineteenth century term, but of course the practice it describes 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:25.000 the sexual abuse of courses it's quite ancient myths going 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.520 back as far as human memory, probably because it you know, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.400 it gets down to a lot of the key problems 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.440 with dealing of death. Um. But of course you have 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.040 to sort of define what is sex too before we write, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:42.240 because of course, human intercourse is essentially the physical act 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.680 that allows the exchange of genetic information to mix everything 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.640 around and create a new organism as offspring. Right. Yeah, 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.040 And that's what makes our first example in sort of 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:57.280 the quote unquote animal world interesting because it's so alien 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.720 to how we understand intercourse. It almost seems like it 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.680 wouldn't be categorized as necrophilia technically, but it's referred to 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:07.640 as such in the literature, right, And I'm sure in 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.200 the science headlines I didn't. I mean, maybe not yet, 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.200 But it's just waiting for the right paper to come 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.320 out and then all the various science blogs will really 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:21.320 run with the headline that will include the phrase bacterial necrophilia. Um. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.039 Of course, bacteria they don't actually need to engage in 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.359 intercourse in order to reproduce. Instead, they tend to swallow 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:31.880 up DNA from other bacteria just as they move around, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:36.040 and they'll even absorb it from dead bacterial cells, they 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.880 exchange new DNA fragments from the dead with their own, 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.840 and then by shuffling all this around, they're essentially mating 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.480 with the dead, uh, in a way that most higher 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.719 creatures fail to achieve. Yeah. The stuff that I read 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.000 about this, in particular, I'm going to be honest, was 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.440 so dense that I had a hard time understanding it. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:01.800 It seems like it's its own very special niche field, uh, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.440 that that has its own language, and that I don't 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.719 know necessarily that they're using necrofile or necrophilia sort of 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.880 in the same way that we understand it when we're 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.680 applying it, certainly to human beings but also to other animals. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.640 But it is how it is described in the literature. Yeah, 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:23.240 it is a genetic exchange between the living and the dead. Um. So, yeah, 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.400 it's almost its own thing because it doesn't really match 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.279 up with most of the models of of biological higher 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.680 organism necrophilia, but it's important to include here, especially I 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.799 think it's a it's perfect to include at the top, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.680 But if you want to move on, we can get 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.880 into what what Robert has coined here as the duck 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:42.599 of death. And I'm sure, a lot of people are 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.640 familiar with this one from the Ignoble Prizes, particularly the 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.640 the Ignoble Prize for Biology in two thousand three. Now, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:54.240 just to rehash, uh, the Ignoble Prizes, this comes out, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.360 These come out every year. This was new to me 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.000 and you explained it to me before the podcast. Yeah, it's, uh, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.800 it's easy to mistake it for like a mockery, but 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.159 it's really a celebration of of weird science papers and 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:10.039 some you know, science papers that study the strange or 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:14.320 just the just the the the weird minutia that often gets, 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.359 you know, and and is inherently picked up in scientific literature. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.240 As as science expands like a slime mold through the 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.479 labyrinth of of existence, you know, you're gonna pick up 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.520 some weird topics. And they celebrate these topics. And so 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.000 the two thousand three award went to um Keys moliker 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.479 Um who's a Dutch writer and curator of the Natural 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.400 History Museum in Rotterdam. Uh and he he won this 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:44.320 paper for his uh his recorded uh his first scientifically 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.640 recorded case of homosexual necrophilia in the Mallard Duck. Yeah, 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.640 and before we get into the details here there's I 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.080 want to back up a second because one of the 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.159 things that I read was that apparently mallards in the 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.919 Netherlands are particularly known for what are called attempted rape flight, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.799 and that this isn't necessarily from from what I was reading, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.360 it's not necessarily heterosexual or homosexual. It's just more like 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.120 these ducks just go for it while they're flying, and 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.480 it's somewhat regardless of gender. But one in ten of 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.160 these attempted rape flights is homosexual, and that it's two 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.480 male ducks. Uh, And that basically what we're looking at 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.200 here in this example from Mullicker is that one of 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:32.560 the ducks died midflight, either from injuries due to their 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.360 struggle or maybe it ran into something, and the other 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.960 duck just landed and kept going. It's ending. It's hard not. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:41.560 I laughed a little bit. It's so it's hard not, 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:43.840 you know what. I think it's okay for you to laugh. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.200 I think it's okay for the people listening to lad 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.280 you gotta have a little bit of literal gallows you 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.960 with this in order to get through it. Yeah, I 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.200 mean they are justist ducks in this case doing what 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.800 ducks do to each other. Yeah, and as we're gonna 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.760 find too. You know, this kind of uh sexual behavior 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.120 is fairly common in a lot of animals, birds especially, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.760 but yeah, these ducks, Um, it seems like I didn't 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.720 get the impression because I read the actual account for Muliker. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.360 I don't know that he knew how the first duck died. 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.440 It sounded like maybe it crashed into something. But basically 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.960 there was this this duck corpse, and he saw the 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.040 second duck mounted and began to peck at it and 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.120 proceed for quite some time. I mean, he recorded pretty 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.960 precisely how long everything lasted, and I believe it was 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.440 like I don't have it in the notes here, but 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:39.079 I want to say it was like forty five or 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.120 seventy five minutes or something like that. So it wasn't 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.640 like this duck didn't realize what was happening, then realized 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.120 it's you know, it's a partner was dead, and stopped 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.440 it really you know, made a habit of it. Yeah, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.160 And I think that's one of the reasons that the 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.800 the paper won the egg Nobel Prize and was so 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.839 everyone enjoyed it so much, is that it is this 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.520 meticulous look at this horrible thing then that you know, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.800 most people might want to turn their eyes away from. Well, 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.959 that's the thing about it, right, is that Mullicker sat 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.360 there and watched this for let's say seventy five minutes, 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.440 and I'm assuming, with like a pad of paper and 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.200 just wrote it all down. And he actually, from what 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.400 I was reading, it was after that, after the second 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.920 I believe that this there were two instances of it 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.480 with the same deceased duck. Uh, he kind of shoot 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.280 away the other bird and finally took the corpse of 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.760 the mallard and um, you know, brought it inside, and 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.720 that other duck hung around kind of making noises for 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.800 a while afterwards. So it's an interesting case. I would 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.680 not be the person who would be so intent upon, 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.120 you know, cataloging this that I would be able to 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.000 hang out there for seventy five minutes. But yeah, it's 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.319 an example of the unflinching gaze of science. Now our 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.440 next case though, is it's more of an example of 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:05.199 the the definitely the flinch. Yeah. George Murray Levic, Yeah, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.480 he was the medical officer on Captain Scott's Terra Nova 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.280 expedition to the South Pole in nineteen ten, and he 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.760 recorded the sexual activity of the Adeli penguins uh in 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:21.040 in detail, and he was he was somewhat shocked by 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.000 much of what he saw. And a lot of this 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.520 really has to do with with him falling into the 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.959 trap of seeing penguins as little people. You know, they 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.600 were little people in tuxedos instead of just bipedal birds. 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.080 Do you know what this movie? Do you know what 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.120 this article made me think of? Have you ever seen 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.440 that movie March of the Penguins narrated by Morgan Freeman. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.280 I have not seen any of the various penguin related 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.559 movies that have come out. I I saw it, gosh, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.040 must have been eleven years ago now or something like that. 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.160 Whenever it first came out. I saw it in the theater. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.480 Is the one where they surf? Right? No? No, no, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.079 this is like a documentary. This isn't the c G 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.559 I Happy I think you're thinking of Happy feat But 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.959 then came from what's his name, director of Mad Max, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.960 So oh oh yeah that's right, George Miller. Yeah that's true. Yeah. Well, anyway, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.280 for those of you out there who have seen much 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.040 of the penguins, and I think there is a whole 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.000 kind of genre of documentary film about Penguin's. One of 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:19.720 the things that bothered me about that movie at the 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.720 time is how much it personified the penguins. And clearly 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.360 from reading this like Levick, they must have left some 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.600 of the more animalistic behaviors of Penguin's out of the 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.240 cut so that it fit the sort of humanized narrative 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.720 that they established. As Morgan Freeman read to us, you know, 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.439 over the over this very nice footage of Penguin's. Yeah, 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.040 there's an article that came out on the BBC in 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.680 two thousand twelve titled Depraved sex Acts by Penguins Shock 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.520 Polar Explorer and uh it's it's a wonderful little read on. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.800 Included link to it on the landing page for this episode. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.840 But there's a quote there. Um. They they interviewed Douglas Russell, 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.120 who's creator of Eggs and Nest at the Natural History Museum, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.280 and uh, he says, what is happening here is not 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.480 in any way analogus to necrophilia in the human context. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.040 It is the male seeing the positioning that is causing 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.079 them to have a sexual reaction. They're not distinguishing between 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.360 live females who are awaiting congress in the colony, and 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.400 dead penguin's from the previous year, which just happened to 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.800 be in the same position, and so um. As the 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.880 article lays outge George Murray Levick, in writing about these penguins, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.760 was so shocked that the the stuff about necrophilia he 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.559 essentially redacted only some of his peers and the individuals 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.920 that they shared it with. We're able to read the 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.800 full unedited account of penguin atrocities. Yeah, and in fact, 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.080 like that, it goes beyond just the necrophilia too. I 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.320 believe these penguins, similar to the mallards, you know, sort 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.240 of engage in in like a habitualized gang rape, is 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.920 what it sounded like, because there's lots of these male 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.440 penguins surrounding female penguins, and what ends up happening in 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.959 these situations situations is there so brutal that they accidentally 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.600 killed the partner. Yeah, I mean really, it should come 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.520 as no surprise, right that in a brutal environment, creatures 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.720 will behave brutally in order to survive. Um, which leads 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.920 us to HP Lovecraft. Yeah, this was I don't know 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:24.520 about you, but when I when I was reading this, 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.760 I started thinking about At the Mountains of Madness, his 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.880 novella which I just reread sometime in the last couple 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.000 of years, Like, it's kind of fresh, it's great. That's 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.559 one of my favorite Lovecraft pieces. It's a little bit 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.520 longer than his other ones, but yeah, yeah, one of 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.160 his later works. Definitely definitely science fiction. It's it's a 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.040 work that he conducted a lot of scientific research for. 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.640 He was Lovecraft of the guy who if he were 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.320 around today, you know, he would be hitting all the 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.040 science blogs. Who would be reading some of the journals. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.960 He'd have a subscription to to several of the magazines. 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.480 He'd probably have a podcast at house of work. I 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.520 would hope so. And uh he uh. But he makes 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.240 several mention mentions of the penguin, like numerous mentions of penguins, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:13.200 often describing them as grotesque penguins. And he probably would 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:18.400 have have read about about about Levis thoughts on the penguins. 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.600 And I'm probably not the unedited content, but he certainly 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.720 makes reference to Captain Scott's Terra Nova expedition in the story. Yeah, 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.800 and if I remember correctly, in that story, those penguins 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.520 were somewhat gigantic, right, there was something to do with that. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.600 They were sort of like prehistoric holdover penguins. And we know, 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.960 I believe from what I've I've read an other research 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.600 instances that that's a thing that that penguins did used 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.000 to be considerably larger than they are now. Yeah, I 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.560 almost feel like they come off more repellent in that 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.000 story than like the show goths. Oh yeah, they're they're 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:57.880 they're terrifying. Um. So let's move on to reptiles. Yeah. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.320 So we've got a bunch of exa amples of of 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:06.440 reptiles in action performing necrophilia. And one of the first 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.880 ones that I found was from an article called It 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:15.600 was published this year called corpse Bride Irresistible. A dead 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.160 female tagu lizard courted by males for two days at 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.800 an urban park in southeastern Brazil. It's very specific that title. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:24.760 I love the pool quote on this one from a 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.240 zoologist who observed this act and process. It's very similar 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.480 to the to the Mallard duck. This guy just sat 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.280 there and watched quote. I felt a sense of wonder, Well, 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.520 I'll go through this and then we can hit upon 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.760 some of the other lizards he provided a very detailed 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.280 account of what happened here with this tagu lizard. Apparently, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.280 it mounted a recently dead female, gained hold by biting 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.400 the skin of her neck and attempting to mate with her. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.280 The same male just kept biting the neck and rubbing 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.280 its left hind limbs on her body. And then this 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.840 basically was like I think a two day dead female. 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.320 So it wasn't, you know, as it wasn't similar to 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.840 the Mallard case where it'd like just happened. Um. Then 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.040 another smaller male came by and also held the neck 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.400 of it, and they seems to be, you know, biting 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.320 seems to be a major part of tagu lizard sex practice, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.560 because they just were opening their jaws kind of biting 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.680 and putting their mouths around the whole head of this animal. Uh. 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.800 And then after a while it ceased its attempts, and 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.200 he this is exactly from his his figure description. The 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.480 male tongue flicked the female's head and scratched her hind 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.240 bodies with the right hind limb. So there you have it, 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.520 necrophilia between tagu lizards. I love though about this case. 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:47.880 One of the things I love about this case is 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.760 that the analysis of what's happening here goes deeper than 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.680 just oh, it's a stupid animal and it made a 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.400 stupid mistake and tried to mate with something that it 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.880 cannot mate with. They they point out that, first of all, 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.840 lizards of course cold blooded creatures. So it's not uh 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.639 so the creature that it's attempting to have sex with 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.960 though dead, uh you know, it's it's ambient body heat. 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:11.920 The body heat is essentially going to be that of 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.280 the ambient air, and uh pheromones are still going to 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.320 be in play even though it's dead. So there are 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.560 there are enough signals saying yes, I'm alive for the 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.639 you know, the dominating male to then come in and 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:27.320 try and do its thing. Yeah. I think that's an 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.600 important thing to distinguish here as well, too, is like, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.199 consider that these animals are relying on senses that they 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.440 are very different than ours to distinguish what's what's available 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.960 and what's alive. I'm thinking it's probably less like, um, 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:41.720 you know, if if a human were to go to 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.919 a bar and try to chat up someone who's just 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.479 a corpse just propped up. Yeah, it's more like if 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.440 you're driving down the interstate and you see a sign 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.920 for a gas station and you pull in to get gas. 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.800 It said gas station. You know, pull the car up, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:56.840 actually get out to fill up, and then realize that 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.600 the place is closed, exactly like the existing signs. The 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.680 major signs that we care about in this rather simplistic 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.159 ordeal are saying yes, we're open for business, when in 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.040 the fact the lizards dead. It's possible this table lizard 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.960 didn't even realize it at all, you know, even even afterwards. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.440 It sounded like the same with a mallard. We've also 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.400 got this with another reptile, the Amazonian frog. I'm gonna 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:25.920 have trouble pronouncing this Latin name, right, ryan Ella probuscda. Yes, 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.240 And this one is fabulous because, as a two thirteen 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:37.480 study reveals, this is functional necrophilia. This is something that 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.840 pretty much every other organism out there, it's an impossibility 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.760 because necrophilia. We've often discussed this, we've discussed it so 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.160 far in lizards and birds. It's a mistake that cannot 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:56.320 possibly work. But in this frog, in proboscidia here are proboscidia, uh, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:02.400 we actually see reproduct occurring through necrophilia, right, So they 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:07.120 extract eggs from their dead sexual partners, right, and and 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.840 then they fertilize them. They don't fertilize them and then 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:14.199 extract them. Right. This is so how this happened. And 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.400 it's not not to say they primarily or only reproduced 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.560 through neck, but on the table as as as a 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.840 viable option. So the males form a big mating ball 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.320 they make, you know, consist of you know, dozens of frogs, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.160 and they're all just ready to go. And then along 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.000 comes a female and they essentially all began fighting on 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.080 top of her for the rights to mate with her. 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.919 And in some of the cases, she ends up drowning 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.840 at the bottom of this uh, this mating ball, um, 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:46.320 you know, and so it ends up with you end 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.600 up with cases where um. Researchers, particularly in this case, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:56.360 uh Thiago Izzo from Brazil's National Institute of Amazonian Research. 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.880 He's analyzing the results of this breeding. He finds counting, yeah, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.600 he's counting him like a hundred males to twenty dead 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.879 females in one in another one fifty males and five 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.879 dead females. But then when he starts dissecting the females, 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.919 there are no eggs. So he's trying to figure out 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.680 where did the eggs go, how did this what could 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:22.359 have possibly happened, and then he observed the act itself. Yeah, 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.480 and so like from what I had read that there's 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.080 this is unique I believe to this particular kind of frog. 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.639 But that one of the one of the articles that 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.920 I read on this, which was called necrophiliac behavior in 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.880 the career U toad, which is a different kind of toad, 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.960 but it also references this instance. It says that it's 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:47.280 been documented that in all groups of terrestrial tetrapods that 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:52.000 this kind of uh necrophilia happens, and that the basically 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.040 scientists just account for it as a lack of proper 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.320 recognition by males during reproductive season. So in in this 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:04.440 case with the Probisidia, that sounds like they do recognize 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:06.800 it though, and they say, okay, we've got to take 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.760 these eggs so that you know something actually happens with it. Yeah, 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.680 or at least they've they've reached the point in their 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.479 evolution to where it still works. So it's I mean, 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.800 it's it's been selected. Um, because Yeah, what happens is 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.200 the male squeeze the dead female's body the eggs pop out, 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.560 the male quickly fertilizes the eggs, and then they eventually 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.480 develop into healthy embryos. So like, where do they where 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.719 do they put these eggs while they're fertilizing. They just 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:34.960 have like a storage area. I got the impression from 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.080 from being the paper that they just kind of pop 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.480 out and it's just done. The beat is done right there. Okay, 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:42.479 So it's just like the egg is next to the 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.760 corpse of the female frog. Okay, Okay, I guess I 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.240 was imagining something a little bit more fantastic where these 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.280 like hundreds of bearded them away. Yeah, these rugs are 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.639 bringing these these these eggs back to their layer. I 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.640 believe Izzio did. Um he did observe like and when 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:01.320 at least one of the cases of the frog moving 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.080 the body to a location where he would be able 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.000 to have his way with it undisturbed by the other 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.880 other male frogs. All right, but but yeah, the fascinating 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.480 thing here is that it's believed that this provides a 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.680 reproductive advantage to both the deathborate outnumbered male who can't 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.840 get his hands on a live mate, as well as 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.879 the dead female because you know, even in her case 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:28.120 she's died through this rather brutal breathing process, but she's 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.720 still going to be able to fulfill the genetic mission. Yeah, 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:36.199 that is the fascinating part. And certainly, uh, it seems like, 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:38.280 at least in all the examples that we have here 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:43.880 of animals, that that reproduction is still the goal, right that, Like, 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.280 that's what seems to be going on in the heads 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.080