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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from housetop works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, you wasn't to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager. So

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be a repeat episode, but we wanted

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Speaker 1: to give you a little bit of an introduction to it.

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Speaker 1: This is from about a year ago when Robert and

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Speaker 1: I did an episode on the science of necrophilia, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just throw it out there, this is

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite episodes that we've ever recorded. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this one is a really fun topic to research. I

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Speaker 1: thought that the episode came together perfectly and we we

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Speaker 1: were were able to demystify the topic takes something that

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Speaker 1: is often seen is just you know, utterly repellent. You

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Speaker 1: just you don't even want to look closer. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: maybe you do, but in a gruesome car exc But

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Speaker 1: but when you strip away the human complexities that the

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Speaker 1: actual science is really fascinating as well. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: just you know, want to know, we talked about this

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Speaker 1: up front in the episode. I believe, but don't don't

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Speaker 1: think that this is going to be some like gross

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Speaker 1: out fest or anything like that. We approach this the

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Speaker 1: way we do all of our other episodes with a

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Speaker 1: lot of research, and uh, with a modicum of dignity,

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Speaker 1: I guess is what I would say, the same monicum

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Speaker 1: of dignity that we we we dust off for every episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but like organic food. Yeah exactly. So without

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Speaker 1: further ado, let's jump into it, all right, So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start off by just by discussing necrophilia in in

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Speaker 1: the animal kingdom. I mean generally, that's the way it

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Speaker 1: goes with these things. We can talk about a simpler

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Speaker 1: model of what's going on with the animals before we

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Speaker 1: dare throw in the complications of the human mind and

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Speaker 1: human culture. And what I was the most shocked about

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Speaker 1: with this as we did the research was how prevalent

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Speaker 1: it is. I mean, We've got at least what like

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Speaker 1: five or six examples of different animals h that practice

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Speaker 1: necrophilia today, and I'm sure there are dozens more out

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Speaker 1: there that have just not been cataloged. And because we'll

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Speaker 1: find with the penguin, it was and then that research

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Speaker 1: was redacted basically for cultural reasons. It was just too

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Speaker 1: shocking to share. I mean, but essentially you can sum

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Speaker 1: it all up in a bumper sticker like, necrophilia happens,

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Speaker 1: and yes, and the more you you just sort of

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Speaker 1: acclimatized to that reality, the easier going everything else. Is

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Speaker 1: that it's not something that is not necessarily an act

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Speaker 1: that is just a defilement before the gods, as much

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Speaker 1: as a thing that occurs in the natural order of things,

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Speaker 1: and often as an accident. But accidents happen, and uh,

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Speaker 1: and then human culture just makes it a little more complicated.

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Speaker 1: You know. What just occurred to me, Robert, is that

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Speaker 1: we're assuming that our audience automatically knows what necrophilia is.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, so maybe we should just, i mean

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Speaker 1: throw out a very basic definition which is in fact,

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Speaker 1: and this was one of the things that surprised me

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Speaker 1: doing the research. In the case of necrophilia, it is

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Speaker 1: not the act of having sex with a dead body,

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Speaker 1: with a corpse. It is the desire to right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just the desire to alone. The fantasy of necrophilia is

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Speaker 1: enough to classify one as a necrophilia um, and the

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Speaker 1: term itself is actually pretty new. Necrophilia is an entirely

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century term, but of course the practice it describes

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Speaker 1: the sexual abuse of courses it's quite ancient myths going

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Speaker 1: back as far as human memory, probably because it you know,

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Speaker 1: it gets down to a lot of the key problems

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Speaker 1: with dealing of death. Um. But of course you have

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Speaker 1: to sort of define what is sex too before we write,

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Speaker 1: because of course, human intercourse is essentially the physical act

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Speaker 1: that allows the exchange of genetic information to mix everything

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Speaker 1: around and create a new organism as offspring. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's what makes our first example in sort of

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote animal world interesting because it's so alien

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Speaker 1: to how we understand intercourse. It almost seems like it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be categorized as necrophilia technically, but it's referred to

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Speaker 1: as such in the literature, right, And I'm sure in

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Speaker 1: the science headlines I didn't. I mean, maybe not yet,

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Speaker 1: But it's just waiting for the right paper to come

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Speaker 1: out and then all the various science blogs will really

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Speaker 1: run with the headline that will include the phrase bacterial necrophilia. Um.

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Speaker 1: Of course, bacteria they don't actually need to engage in

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Speaker 1: intercourse in order to reproduce. Instead, they tend to swallow

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Speaker 1: up DNA from other bacteria just as they move around,

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Speaker 1: and they'll even absorb it from dead bacterial cells, they

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Speaker 1: exchange new DNA fragments from the dead with their own,

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Speaker 1: and then by shuffling all this around, they're essentially mating

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Speaker 1: with the dead, uh, in a way that most higher

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Speaker 1: creatures fail to achieve. Yeah. The stuff that I read

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Speaker 1: about this, in particular, I'm going to be honest, was

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Speaker 1: so dense that I had a hard time understanding it.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's its own very special niche field, uh,

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Speaker 1: that that has its own language, and that I don't

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Speaker 1: know necessarily that they're using necrofile or necrophilia sort of

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Speaker 1: in the same way that we understand it when we're

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Speaker 1: applying it, certainly to human beings but also to other animals.

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Speaker 1: But it is how it is described in the literature. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is a genetic exchange between the living and the dead. Um. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's almost its own thing because it doesn't really match

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Speaker 1: up with most of the models of of biological higher

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Speaker 1: organism necrophilia, but it's important to include here, especially I

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Speaker 1: think it's a it's perfect to include at the top,

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Speaker 1: But if you want to move on, we can get

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Speaker 1: into what what Robert has coined here as the duck

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Speaker 1: of death. And I'm sure, a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: familiar with this one from the Ignoble Prizes, particularly the

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Speaker 1: the Ignoble Prize for Biology in two thousand three. Now,

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Speaker 1: just to rehash, uh, the Ignoble Prizes, this comes out,

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Speaker 1: These come out every year. This was new to me

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Speaker 1: and you explained it to me before the podcast. Yeah, it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to mistake it for like a mockery, but

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Speaker 1: it's really a celebration of of weird science papers and

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Speaker 1: some you know, science papers that study the strange or

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Speaker 1: just the just the the the weird minutia that often gets,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and is inherently picked up in scientific literature.

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Speaker 1: As as science expands like a slime mold through the

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Speaker 1: labyrinth of of existence, you know, you're gonna pick up

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Speaker 1: some weird topics. And they celebrate these topics. And so

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Speaker 1: the two thousand three award went to um Keys moliker

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Speaker 1: Um who's a Dutch writer and curator of the Natural

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Speaker 1: History Museum in Rotterdam. Uh and he he won this

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Speaker 1: paper for his uh his recorded uh his first scientifically

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Speaker 1: recorded case of homosexual necrophilia in the Mallard Duck. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and before we get into the details here there's I

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Speaker 1: want to back up a second because one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I read was that apparently mallards in the

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Speaker 1: Netherlands are particularly known for what are called attempted rape flight,

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Speaker 1: and that this isn't necessarily from from what I was reading,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily heterosexual or homosexual. It's just more like

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Speaker 1: these ducks just go for it while they're flying, and

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Speaker 1: it's somewhat regardless of gender. But one in ten of

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Speaker 1: these attempted rape flights is homosexual, and that it's two

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Speaker 1: male ducks. Uh, And that basically what we're looking at

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Speaker 1: here in this example from Mullicker is that one of

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Speaker 1: the ducks died midflight, either from injuries due to their

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Speaker 1: struggle or maybe it ran into something, and the other

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Speaker 1: duck just landed and kept going. It's ending. It's hard not.

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Speaker 1: I laughed a little bit. It's so it's hard not,

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Speaker 1: you know what. I think it's okay for you to laugh.

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Speaker 1: I think it's okay for the people listening to lad

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Speaker 1: you gotta have a little bit of literal gallows you

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Speaker 1: with this in order to get through it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean they are justist ducks in this case doing what

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Speaker 1: ducks do to each other. Yeah, and as we're gonna

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Speaker 1: find too. You know, this kind of uh sexual behavior

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Speaker 1: is fairly common in a lot of animals, birds especially,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, these ducks, Um, it seems like I didn't

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Speaker 1: get the impression because I read the actual account for Muliker.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that he knew how the first duck died.

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Speaker 1: It sounded like maybe it crashed into something. But basically

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Speaker 1: there was this this duck corpse, and he saw the

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Speaker 1: second duck mounted and began to peck at it and

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Speaker 1: proceed for quite some time. I mean, he recorded pretty

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Speaker 1: precisely how long everything lasted, and I believe it was

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Speaker 1: like I don't have it in the notes here, but

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Speaker 1: I want to say it was like forty five or

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Speaker 1: seventy five minutes or something like that. So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like this duck didn't realize what was happening, then realized

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a partner was dead, and stopped

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Speaker 1: it really you know, made a habit of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the reasons that the

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Speaker 1: the paper won the egg Nobel Prize and was so

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Speaker 1: everyone enjoyed it so much, is that it is this

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Speaker 1: meticulous look at this horrible thing then that you know,

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Speaker 1: most people might want to turn their eyes away from. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing about it, right, is that Mullicker sat

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Speaker 1: there and watched this for let's say seventy five minutes,

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Speaker 1: and I'm assuming, with like a pad of paper and

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Speaker 1: just wrote it all down. And he actually, from what

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Speaker 1: I was reading, it was after that, after the second

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Speaker 1: I believe that this there were two instances of it

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Speaker 1: with the same deceased duck. Uh, he kind of shoot

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Speaker 1: away the other bird and finally took the corpse of

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Speaker 1: the mallard and um, you know, brought it inside, and

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Speaker 1: that other duck hung around kind of making noises for

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Speaker 1: a while afterwards. So it's an interesting case. I would

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Speaker 1: not be the person who would be so intent upon,

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Speaker 1: you know, cataloging this that I would be able to

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Speaker 1: hang out there for seventy five minutes. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: an example of the unflinching gaze of science. Now our

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Speaker 1: next case though, is it's more of an example of

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Speaker 1: the the definitely the flinch. Yeah. George Murray Levic, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was the medical officer on Captain Scott's Terra Nova

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Speaker 1: expedition to the South Pole in nineteen ten, and he

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Speaker 1: recorded the sexual activity of the Adeli penguins uh in

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Speaker 1: in detail, and he was he was somewhat shocked by

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Speaker 1: much of what he saw. And a lot of this

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Speaker 1: really has to do with with him falling into the

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Speaker 1: trap of seeing penguins as little people. You know, they

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Speaker 1: were little people in tuxedos instead of just bipedal birds.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what this movie? Do you know what

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Speaker 1: this article made me think of? Have you ever seen

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Speaker 1: that movie March of the Penguins narrated by Morgan Freeman.

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Speaker 1: I have not seen any of the various penguin related

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Speaker 1: movies that have come out. I I saw it, gosh,

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Speaker 1: must have been eleven years ago now or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Whenever it first came out. I saw it in the theater.

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Speaker 1: Is the one where they surf? Right? No? No, no,

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Speaker 1: this is like a documentary. This isn't the c G

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Speaker 1: I Happy I think you're thinking of Happy feat But

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Speaker 1: then came from what's his name, director of Mad Max,

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Speaker 1: So oh oh yeah that's right, George Miller. Yeah that's true. Yeah. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: for those of you out there who have seen much

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Speaker 1: of the penguins, and I think there is a whole

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Speaker 1: kind of genre of documentary film about Penguin's. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that bothered me about that movie at the

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Speaker 1: time is how much it personified the penguins. And clearly

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Speaker 1: from reading this like Levick, they must have left some

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Speaker 1: of the more animalistic behaviors of Penguin's out of the

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Speaker 1: cut so that it fit the sort of humanized narrative

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Speaker 1: that they established. As Morgan Freeman read to us, you know,

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Speaker 1: over the over this very nice footage of Penguin's. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's an article that came out on the BBC in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve titled Depraved sex Acts by Penguins Shock

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Speaker 1: Polar Explorer and uh it's it's a wonderful little read on.

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Speaker 1: Included link to it on the landing page for this episode.

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Speaker 1: But there's a quote there. Um. They they interviewed Douglas Russell,

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Speaker 1: who's creator of Eggs and Nest at the Natural History Museum,

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Speaker 1: and uh, he says, what is happening here is not

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Speaker 1: in any way analogus to necrophilia in the human context.

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Speaker 1: It is the male seeing the positioning that is causing

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Speaker 1: them to have a sexual reaction. They're not distinguishing between

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Speaker 1: live females who are awaiting congress in the colony, and

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Speaker 1: dead penguin's from the previous year, which just happened to

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Speaker 1: be in the same position, and so um. As the

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Speaker 1: article lays outge George Murray Levick, in writing about these penguins,

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Speaker 1: was so shocked that the the stuff about necrophilia he

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Speaker 1: essentially redacted only some of his peers and the individuals

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Speaker 1: that they shared it with. We're able to read the

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Speaker 1: full unedited account of penguin atrocities. Yeah, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: like that, it goes beyond just the necrophilia too. I

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Speaker 1: believe these penguins, similar to the mallards, you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of engage in in like a habitualized gang rape, is

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Speaker 1: what it sounded like, because there's lots of these male

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Speaker 1: penguins surrounding female penguins, and what ends up happening in

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Speaker 1: these situations situations is there so brutal that they accidentally

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Speaker 1: killed the partner. Yeah, I mean really, it should come

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Speaker 1: as no surprise, right that in a brutal environment, creatures

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Speaker 1: will behave brutally in order to survive. Um, which leads

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Speaker 1: us to HP Lovecraft. Yeah, this was I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you, but when I when I was reading this,

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Speaker 1: I started thinking about At the Mountains of Madness, his

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Speaker 1: novella which I just reread sometime in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, Like, it's kind of fresh, it's great. That's

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite Lovecraft pieces. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: longer than his other ones, but yeah, yeah, one of

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Speaker 1: his later works. Definitely definitely science fiction. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: work that he conducted a lot of scientific research for.

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Speaker 1: He was Lovecraft of the guy who if he were

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Speaker 1: around today, you know, he would be hitting all the

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Speaker 1: science blogs. Who would be reading some of the journals.

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Speaker 1: He'd have a subscription to to several of the magazines.

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Speaker 1: He'd probably have a podcast at house of work. I

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Speaker 1: would hope so. And uh he uh. But he makes

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Speaker 1: several mention mentions of the penguin, like numerous mentions of penguins,

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Speaker 1: often describing them as grotesque penguins. And he probably would

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Speaker 1: have have read about about about Levis thoughts on the penguins.

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Speaker 1: And I'm probably not the unedited content, but he certainly

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Speaker 1: makes reference to Captain Scott's Terra Nova expedition in the story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if I remember correctly, in that story, those penguins

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Speaker 1: were somewhat gigantic, right, there was something to do with that.

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Speaker 1: They were sort of like prehistoric holdover penguins. And we know,

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Speaker 1: I believe from what I've I've read an other research

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Speaker 1: instances that that's a thing that that penguins did used

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Speaker 1: to be considerably larger than they are now. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: almost feel like they come off more repellent in that

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Speaker 1: story than like the show goths. Oh yeah, they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're terrifying. Um. So let's move on to reptiles. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we've got a bunch of exa amples of of

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Speaker 1: reptiles in action performing necrophilia. And one of the first

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Speaker 1: ones that I found was from an article called It

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Speaker 1: was published this year called corpse Bride Irresistible. A dead

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Speaker 1: female tagu lizard courted by males for two days at

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Speaker 1: an urban park in southeastern Brazil. It's very specific that title.

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Speaker 1: I love the pool quote on this one from a

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Speaker 1: zoologist who observed this act and process. It's very similar

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Speaker 1: to the to the Mallard duck. This guy just sat

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Speaker 1: there and watched quote. I felt a sense of wonder, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll go through this and then we can hit upon

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Speaker 1: some of the other lizards he provided a very detailed

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Speaker 1: account of what happened here with this tagu lizard. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: it mounted a recently dead female, gained hold by biting

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Speaker 1: the skin of her neck and attempting to mate with her.

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Speaker 1: The same male just kept biting the neck and rubbing

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Speaker 1: its left hind limbs on her body. And then this

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Speaker 1: basically was like I think a two day dead female.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't, you know, as it wasn't similar to

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Speaker 1: the Mallard case where it'd like just happened. Um. Then

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Speaker 1: another smaller male came by and also held the neck

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Speaker 1: of it, and they seems to be, you know, biting

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Speaker 1: seems to be a major part of tagu lizard sex practice,

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Speaker 1: because they just were opening their jaws kind of biting

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Speaker 1: and putting their mouths around the whole head of this animal. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then after a while it ceased its attempts, and

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Speaker 1: he this is exactly from his his figure description. The

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Speaker 1: male tongue flicked the female's head and scratched her hind

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Speaker 1: bodies with the right hind limb. So there you have it,

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Speaker 1: necrophilia between tagu lizards. I love though about this case.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I love about this case is

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Speaker 1: that the analysis of what's happening here goes deeper than

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Speaker 1: just oh, it's a stupid animal and it made a

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Speaker 1: stupid mistake and tried to mate with something that it

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Speaker 1: cannot mate with. They they point out that, first of all,

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Speaker 1: lizards of course cold blooded creatures. So it's not uh

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Speaker 1: so the creature that it's attempting to have sex with

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Speaker 1: though dead, uh you know, it's it's ambient body heat.

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Speaker 1: The body heat is essentially going to be that of

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Speaker 1: the ambient air, and uh pheromones are still going to

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Speaker 1: be in play even though it's dead. So there are

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Speaker 1: there are enough signals saying yes, I'm alive for the

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Speaker 1: you know, the dominating male to then come in and

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Speaker 1: try and do its thing. Yeah. I think that's an

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Speaker 1: important thing to distinguish here as well, too, is like,

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Speaker 1: consider that these animals are relying on senses that they

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Speaker 1: are very different than ours to distinguish what's what's available

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Speaker 1: and what's alive. I'm thinking it's probably less like, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, if if a human were to go to

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Speaker 1: a bar and try to chat up someone who's just

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Speaker 1: a corpse just propped up. Yeah, it's more like if

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Speaker 1: you're driving down the interstate and you see a sign

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Speaker 1: for a gas station and you pull in to get gas.

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Speaker 1: It said gas station. You know, pull the car up,

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Speaker 1: actually get out to fill up, and then realize that

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Speaker 1: the place is closed, exactly like the existing signs. The

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Speaker 1: major signs that we care about in this rather simplistic

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Speaker 1: ordeal are saying yes, we're open for business, when in

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Speaker 1: the fact the lizards dead. It's possible this table lizard

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Speaker 1: didn't even realize it at all, you know, even even afterwards.

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Speaker 1: It sounded like the same with a mallard. We've also

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Speaker 1: got this with another reptile, the Amazonian frog. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have trouble pronouncing this Latin name, right, ryan Ella probuscda. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And this one is fabulous because, as a two thirteen

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Speaker 1: study reveals, this is functional necrophilia. This is something that

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Speaker 1: pretty much every other organism out there, it's an impossibility

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Speaker 1: because necrophilia. We've often discussed this, we've discussed it so

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Speaker 1: far in lizards and birds. It's a mistake that cannot

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Speaker 1: possibly work. But in this frog, in proboscidia here are proboscidia, uh,

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Speaker 1: we actually see reproduct occurring through necrophilia, right, So they

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Speaker 1: extract eggs from their dead sexual partners, right, and and

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Speaker 1: then they fertilize them. They don't fertilize them and then

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Speaker 1: extract them. Right. This is so how this happened. And

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Speaker 1: it's not not to say they primarily or only reproduced

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Speaker 1: through neck, but on the table as as as a

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Speaker 1: viable option. So the males form a big mating ball

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Speaker 1: they make, you know, consist of you know, dozens of frogs,

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Speaker 1: and they're all just ready to go. And then along

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Speaker 1: comes a female and they essentially all began fighting on

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Speaker 1: top of her for the rights to mate with her.

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Speaker 1: And in some of the cases, she ends up drowning

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of this uh, this mating ball, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so it ends up with you end

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Speaker 1: up with cases where um. Researchers, particularly in this case,

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Speaker 1: uh Thiago Izzo from Brazil's National Institute of Amazonian Research.

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Speaker 1: He's analyzing the results of this breeding. He finds counting, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's counting him like a hundred males to twenty dead

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Speaker 1: females in one in another one fifty males and five

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Speaker 1: dead females. But then when he starts dissecting the females,

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Speaker 1: there are no eggs. So he's trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: where did the eggs go, how did this what could

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Speaker 1: have possibly happened, and then he observed the act itself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so like from what I had read that there's

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Speaker 1: this is unique I believe to this particular kind of frog.

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Speaker 1: But that one of the one of the articles that

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Speaker 1: I read on this, which was called necrophiliac behavior in

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Speaker 1: the career U toad, which is a different kind of toad,

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Speaker 1: but it also references this instance. It says that it's

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Speaker 1: been documented that in all groups of terrestrial tetrapods that

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Speaker 1: this kind of uh necrophilia happens, and that the basically

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Speaker 1: scientists just account for it as a lack of proper

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Speaker 1: recognition by males during reproductive season. So in in this

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Speaker 1: case with the Probisidia, that sounds like they do recognize

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Speaker 1: it though, and they say, okay, we've got to take

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Speaker 1: these eggs so that you know something actually happens with it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or at least they've they've reached the point in their

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Speaker 1: evolution to where it still works. So it's I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's been selected. Um, because Yeah, what happens is

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Speaker 1: the male squeeze the dead female's body the eggs pop out,

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Speaker 1: the male quickly fertilizes the eggs, and then they eventually

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Speaker 1: develop into healthy embryos. So like, where do they where

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Speaker 1: do they put these eggs while they're fertilizing. They just

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Speaker 1: have like a storage area. I got the impression from

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Speaker 1: from being the paper that they just kind of pop

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Speaker 1: out and it's just done. The beat is done right there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So it's just like the egg is next to the

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Speaker 1: corpse of the female frog. Okay, Okay, I guess I

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Speaker 1: was imagining something a little bit more fantastic where these

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Speaker 1: like hundreds of bearded them away. Yeah, these rugs are

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Speaker 1: bringing these these these eggs back to their layer. I

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Speaker 1: believe Izzio did. Um he did observe like and when

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Speaker 1: at least one of the cases of the frog moving

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Speaker 1: the body to a location where he would be able

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Speaker 1: to have his way with it undisturbed by the other

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Speaker 1: other male frogs. All right, but but yeah, the fascinating

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Speaker 1: thing here is that it's believed that this provides a

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Speaker 1: reproductive advantage to both the deathborate outnumbered male who can't

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Speaker 1: get his hands on a live mate, as well as

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Speaker 1: the dead female because you know, even in her case

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Speaker 1: she's died through this rather brutal breathing process, but she's

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Speaker 1: still going to be able to fulfill the genetic mission. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is the fascinating part. And certainly, uh, it seems like,

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Speaker 1: at least in all the examples that we have here

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Speaker 1: of animals, that that reproduction is still the goal, right that, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's what seems to be going on in the heads

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Speaker 1: of these mallards or these frogs or teng google lizards

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Speaker 1: or penguins or whatever. And it makes me wonder too.

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Speaker 1: Like I said at the top, I'm sure there are

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Speaker 1: many other instances of other animals in the wild that

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Speaker 1: have done this, and he means have probably already documented it.

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Speaker 1: But like our friend with the penguins, they maybe don't

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Speaker 1: want to get that research. That's that's not the first

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Speaker 1: paper they're going to submit for publication, right, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get the impression that it's it's kind of an

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Speaker 1: understudied area of human behavior, but but certainly there's any Yeah,

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Speaker 1: certainly an understudied area of of animal behavior, but but

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Speaker 1: there's some there's some interesting work there. Nonetheless, so I

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Speaker 1: believe that this frog is a perfect way for us

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Speaker 1: to transition into human necrophiles. Um. Now, before we get

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00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: into anything to disturbing though, um, we should remind you

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Speaker 1: that like, basically human necrophilia can be achieved in a

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Speaker 1: way that is far less ethically sketchy and horrendous and

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Speaker 1: you know and on a front to the gods, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And that is of course in the form of posthumous

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Speaker 1: sperm retrieval and posthumous egg retrieval, which is similar to

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Speaker 1: the frogs that we were just speaking exactly. Like, it's like,

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Speaker 1: basically it's the frog scenario carried out, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: far less brutally in human culture. Uh, the same thing

424
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 1: that the frog has been it has evolved to deal with.

425
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 1: Human technology allows us to do the same thing to

426
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: remove viable sperm or egg from a brain dead or

427
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: even recently the deceased individual and then utilize it uh

428
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: in reproduction in a in a healthy body. Yeah. I

429
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: had never heard of this before this before researching this episode,

430
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: but it seems perfectly plausible to me, and I could

431
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: sort of understand the motivation for some people as well. Yeah,

432
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: it's not you know, it's not it's almost a disservice

433
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: to call it necro to refer to it all as

434
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: necrophilia because it's it's certainly not you know, an abuse

435
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: of a body. It's there are allowed. There's some ethical

436
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: concerns and you know, most of them concerned legality and

437
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: consent of the individual whose reproductive material is being taken.

438
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: But but at at heart it is a reproductive act

439
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: occurring between a living individual and a dead individual. Almost

440
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: like when we're going back to that bacteria, right, they're

441
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: similarly mention line with the bacterial model that we discussed earlier. Um.

442
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: And we've had this technology for a little bit. Um. Yeah,

443
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: we've we've been carrying out the posthumous sperm retrieval for

444
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: a while, and in two thousand eleven we actually saw

445
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: the the the first um use of of of effective

446
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: posthumous egg retrieval. There's a paper with a kind of

447
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: horrible title, um that came out two twelve Michigan State

448
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: Law Review, Dying to be many using intentional parenthood as

449
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: a proxy for consent in posthumous egg retrieval case. Yeah,

450
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: that definitely sounds like something that I've noticed. That's a

451
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: that's a law article to Michigan State Law Review. It

452
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: sounds like a case of using a title to UM

453
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: kind of kind of make it a little bit more

454
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: sexy so it's more attractive to the publishers. Yeah, it was.

455
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: It feels a little weird, but but I mean at

456
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: hard it's I think it's a very sensible, UM, very

457
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: sensible procedure to carry out, provided you consent is clear

458
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: and established. You know, you have a sudden death that

459
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: occurs between two people who who want to uh to

460
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: have offspring, and here is a scientific way of achieving that.

461
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: And it sounds like this article was specifically about uh

462
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: an example in Israel where magistrates set a legal precedent

463
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: for this um for the harvesting and freezing of a

464
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: posthumous human being sax. Yeah, and I know some of

465
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: you are probably wondering, well, how how dead UH can

466
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: the individual be? I did find some stats on sperm

467
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: retrieval from a from two thousand six paper uh into

468
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: titled a Posthumous Sperm Retrieval Analysis of Time Interval to

469
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: Harvest Sperm and this is published in the journal Human Reproduction.

470
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: It said, quote, viable sperm is obtainable with ps R.

471
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: That's posthumous sperm retrieval well after the currently recommended twenty

472
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: four hour time interval PSR should be considered up to

473
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: thirty six hours after death following appropriate evaluation. No quote,

474
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: no correlation was found between cause of death and chance

475
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: for successful sperm retrieval. So that's sperm in particular, not

476
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: not not eggs. Yeah, okay, Yeah, So I wonder if

477
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: there's a paper out there that's about the time limits

478
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: on eggs as well. Yeah, I wonder if it's, uh,

479
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: if it's if it's about the same, or or maybe

480
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: it's if there's a little shorter. I'm not sure that.

481
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: If anybody out there knows, please tell us. Yeah, yeah,

482
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: we'll throw that information in there. Um. So this seems

483
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: like the moment for us to go down what probably

484
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: most of you thought you were going to be hearing

485
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: when you clicked on an episode that had necrophilia in

486
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: the title, which and we're going to call it classic necrophilia.

487
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: This is what you think of when you hear that word. Yeah,

488
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: and this is you know, if you want to get

489
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 1: off the train at this point, this is your stop,

490
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: because it's all human necrophilia from here. Yeah, this is

491
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: where it gets a bit spooky, but not as you know,

492
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: what I'm going to qualify that not as not as

493
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: a spooky or creepy as I thought it was going

494
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: to be. I mean, especially once you crunch the examples

495
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: that we've gone through already kind of demystifies and you know,

496
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: de horrifies the situation and that I find And there's

497
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: even some aspects of the human psychology that I can

498
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: I don't relate to or identify with, but I can

499
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: I can sympathize with with somebody, for instance, who misses

500
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: their dead loved one, which seems to be one of

501
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: the examples. We'll get into that, but I think what

502
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: we should really start with is is this one paper

503
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: that came out in seven which seems to be cited

504
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: in all of the research that's done on the psychology

505
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: of necrophilia. It is called Sexual Attraction to Corpses. A

506
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: Psychiatric Review of Necrophilia, is written by Jonathan P. Rossman

507
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: and Philip J. Resnick Uh And basically, these guys explored

508
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty two cases of necrophilia and they

509
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: found what is the eighty eight of them were from

510
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: world literature and thirty four were unpublished cases. What I

511
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: want to know and I actually downloaded the whole article.

512
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: I gotta go back through and look at the methodology.

513
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: I don't think they explained it in there though. Where

514
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: where do you get these cases? It's they make it

515
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: sound like you just go to the library and you're like, yes,

516
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: I would like all of the world literature cases on necliphilia. Please. Yeah.

517
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: I don't recall seeing that specified in the paper either.

518
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,719
Speaker 1: But but you know, they had a lot to two

519
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: on they did, and they they used it to basically

520
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: create some categorizations, some classifications of types of necrophilia. Right,

521
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: so we've got and they came up with three. Whether

522
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: first of all, they're two, they're they're sort of a

523
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: line in the stand that they draw initially between necrophilia

524
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: and pseudo necrophilia, and pseudo necrophilia is you know, this

525
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: consists of of transient attraction to human corpses, but it's not.

526
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: But it with with these individuals with pseudo necrophiliacs, sex

527
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: with the corps is not the central part of their fantasies.

528
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: They're primarily interested in living sexual partners. But you know

529
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: they're they're not averse to uh to to going after

530
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: something dead. This group includes uh sadistic opportunistic and transitory

531
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: cases of necrophilia. And again, like let's distinguish here. Necrophilia

532
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: is the desire to have sex with a dead body,

533
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: not the act of having sex with a dead body.

534
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: Some of these lead to that, obviously, but some of

535
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: these necrophilix that they're referring to in the literature didn't

536
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: act upon their fantasies. Yeah, Like I could see someone

537
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: being tricked and being classified as a pseudo necrophiliac, you know,

538
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: like they have a drink in them and you're just

539
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: talking to them instead, would you, And under these circumstances,

540
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: and then eventually they break and say well, I don't know, maybe,

541
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: and then and then all of a sudden they're in

542
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: study on necrophilia. That's where they got them all. So okay,

543
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: the first one is the first categorization that they came

544
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: up with is I think what a lot of people

545
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: think of when they hear the word necrophilia, but they

546
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: categorize it as a type called necrophilic homicide. So what

547
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about here this is sort of the Jeffrey

548
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: Dahmer model of an individual murders somebody in order to

549
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: obtain a corpse for their necrophilic fantasies, and from from

550
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: what I was reading about Dahmer, and I mean, that's

551
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: a whole another rabbit hole that we could go down

552
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: for the other episode. And I think Ted Bundy also

553
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: partook in this, but that the idea was that those

554
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: those men could not uh feel sexual pleasure unless the

555
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: part of their quote unquote partner it's a terrible word

556
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: for it, in this situation was was dead or at

557
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: least like de humanized, and to a significant degree because

558
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: I believe Dahmer tried to create essentially zombies out of

559
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: by drilling into their their skull. But but it kind

560
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: of comes down to the same thing. They need needed

561
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: a person devoid of will, and the easiest way to

562
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: achieve that is, of course to kill the individual. Yeah,

563
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: the key here seems to be that what these people

564
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: are looking for is a partner who is quote and

565
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: this is from the text unresisting and unrejecting. So I

566
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: don't know necessarily that it's like it. Maybe it is

567
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: in some cases that the act of killing sort of

568
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: sexualizes the situation. But what they're looking for is somebody

569
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: who won't reject them, and somebody who isn't going to

570
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: resist them. Right, we'll break down more on the motives

571
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: for all these cases. Yeah, And one fact that I

572
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: wanted to throw out there that wasn't in these studies

573
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: but was another study came out was this woman Michelle

574
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: Stein from the John J. College of Criminal Justice in

575
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: New York. She reviewed two hundred and eleven sexual homicides

576
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: and she found that only eight percent of those involved necrophilia.

577
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about you know, sexual deviancy, sexual

578
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: prime and necrophilia, it's actually quite rare. I mean, first

579
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: of all, these these deviant situations are rare, That's why

580
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: we call them deviant. But then also that within that structure,

581
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: the actual act of sex with a dead body is

582
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: fairly rare as well. Within within these uh criminal acts, Yeah,

583
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: I mean you also can imagine the ven diagram right

584
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: of the of the the psychotic murder or wentless murder,

585
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: and the type of individual who would want sexual contact

586
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: with a dead bye. Yeah, it seems as such, and

587
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, the ven diagram sliver is probably

588
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: fairly small. So don't listen to this episode and think,

589
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, they're everywhere that that's not the case,

590
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: at least from what the research says. Now, the next

591
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: classification under a genuine necrophilia is a regular necrophilia, and

592
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: this is I like to think that this is the

593
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: scavenger approach, entitling the use of entailing the use of

594
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: an already dead body for sex, so, um, you know

595
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: it's will explore late are a lot of this happens

596
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: to to line up with one's job. You're in a

597
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: job where you're in close contact with dead bodies and

598
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: the opportunity simply presents itself. Yeah. Yeah, And I suspect

599
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: that that is probably the situation. Referring back to the

600
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: sexual homicides and the necrophilia like sort of numbers, I

601
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: suspect that this is a bit more common, actually far

602
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: more common. I think it's extremely rare to have somebody

603
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: like a Jeffrey Dahmer type. And then the third one

604
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: that they categorize and this is sixty eight percent of

605
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: the people that they categorize as necrophiliacs is necrophilic fantasy.

606
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: So this is basically getting back to the pseudo necrophilia.

607
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: This is the idea that it's a it's a fantasy

608
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: they have of having sex with a corpse, but they

609
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: don't actually do it um and they sort of I

610
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: think that, and by day I mean that the researchers

611
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: here think that these necrophiles often choose occupations that will

612
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: put them in can attact with corpses. So I don't know,

613
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: working in a morgue or a hospital or maybe a

614
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: grave digger, I don't know, Yeah, hospitals, graves in some cases.

615
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: You know, we'll look at some of the stats in

616
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: a bit. I think like clerics and even soldiers come up. Basically,

617
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: any kind of profession you can imagine in which you

618
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: would find yourself in proximity to a dead body. And

619
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: here's a couple of numbers to break this down of

620
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: the necrophiles wanted to be reunited with the dead partner.

621
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: So this is the one that I was saying earlier

622
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: that I can sort of not that I would participate

623
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: in this, like my wife died or something like that,

624
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: but I can I feel emotion for these people who

625
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: are so saddened by the loss of their life partner

626
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: that they fantasize. They're not even actually acting upon it,

627
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: they're just fantasizing about being reunited with them. It reminds

628
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: me of the old Irish ballad that particularly Shane O'Connor

629
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,479
Speaker 1: did a version of this, and also Dead Can Dance

630
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: to the Fact was version of this, I'm stretched on

631
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: your grave and will lie there forever about someone who's

632
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: lost their beloved and there just lying on their grave. Yes,

633
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: very modeling. Sounds quite light with my experience with Irish

634
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: folk songs that kind of attitude, and I think all

635
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: of us can relate to it on at least that

636
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: level of sorrow. I think um, okay, fift percent of

637
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: them were just attracted to corpses. Twelve percent had a

638
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: power trip over this, right, so twelve percent of the

639
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: people that they looked at saw that they very much

640
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: like how we think about I think sexual assault is

641
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: that it's a power strategy more than it is a

642
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: sexual uh motivated crime. You know, I can't help but

643
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: particularly in the whole idea about being attracted to corpses,

644
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: I can't help but think of individuals growing up in

645
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: the age of VHS, you know where you know, nowadays,

646
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: if someone has access to the Internet, they can find

647
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: just about an the example of sexual activity they want. Sure,

648
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, if the appropriate supervision isn't there. But when

649
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: I was growing up, Like the easiest way to to

650
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: see uh, you know more kind of adult content was

651
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: through horror movies and science fiction movies. You know. So

652
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: you know, you're not gonna go to the video store

653
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: and rent something, you know, from the adult section, but

654
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: you can certainly rent alien. You can rent rent a

655
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: Return of the Living Dead, which of course has a

656
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: naked zombie in it. So, like, I wondered to what

657
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: it's you know, that's an important time in one sexual

658
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: there's a there's a culturals like guyst around that that's

659
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: somewhat maybe encourages such fantasies. I wonder. Yeah, like because

660
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: imagine there are a lot of people out there who

661
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: have their you know, their their sexual development kind of

662
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: crosses into this horror genre and then and there they

663
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: just sort of burned their mind or various sexy zombies,

664
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, like what and that's been a trope for

665
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 1: at least the last couple of years. Is the whole

666
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: zombie thing turned into a boom? I think there was

667
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: a lot of like, let's make cash off of this

668
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: by making those zombie zombies sexy as well. Yeah, um

669
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: so this makes me think of you know, it's no

670
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: surprise to the listeners. Both Robert and I are big

671
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: horror fans. I was on Bloody Disgusting I think it

672
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: was Bloody Disgusting, which is a you know, horror fan website,

673
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: the other day and they had a list of, like

674
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: I think it was like the top ten scenes of

675
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: necrophilia in horror movies, uh, you know, overall, And I

676
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: was shocked that there were so many. And then as

677
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: I kind of went through it, I went, oh, some

678
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: of these are actually like tasteful movies that tasteful horror

679
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: movies that had, you know, a scene that had to

680
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 1: do with the the character of the plot. It wasn't

681
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: just thrown in there to be shocking or to you

682
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: know Garner, you know, cult status. I guess yeah, growing up,

683
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 1: I remember, we're not growing up. It was more like college.

684
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: I remember hearing about Necromantic. I think it was a

685
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: German film. Yeah, it's like kind of a video nasty classification,

686
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, banned a lot of places. I never saw it,

687
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: but it was. It's it's kind of I think it's

688
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: held up there as one of the earlier that might

689
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: have been on the list. I'm trying to remember some

690
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: of them I'm sure a d and Twenty Days of

691
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: Sawdom was on there. Um, but I've never seen that

692
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: slou And I believe there's I believe there's necrophilia and that.

693
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: Um god, I don't remember. I actually saw it in

694
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: the last year for the first time. Yeah, because one

695
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: of our coworkers owns it. U because I mean, it's uh,

696
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have fun guessing who that is later, But

697
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: it's uh. I mean, it's it's an interesting film, and

698
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: that it is highly controversial, but it's it's uh, it's

699
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: artistically well made. It's it's a work of troubling art. Yeah,

700
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: like the I mean the director was stabbed to death

701
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: shortly after it. I didn't know that really, And it's

702
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: it's a I ended up not watching it in full, Like,

703
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: I just could not watch a lot of it. I

704
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: never saw it. But I remember when I was in college,

705
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: I had a girlfriend who was in a film class

706
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: and they had a signed say Low as something that

707
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: they had to watch for class, and she was mortified. Um,

708
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: and just I don't I don't think she was able

709
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: to make it through. It was you know, probably part

710
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: of the class was a part of the exercise was

711
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: to see whether or not people could make it through

712
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: that movie. Getting back to the actual you know, necrophilic fantasies,

713
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: power trips come into it as you as you would

714
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: suspect um. And then you know, as we referred to earlier,

715
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: that the homicidal necrophiliacs. That's again only twelve percent of

716
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: the cases they surveyed. So it's quite a small sliver.

717
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: Twelve percent out of what what are these guys? They

718
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: had a hundred and twenty two cases. And then with

719
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: the other case, it was out of two hundred and

720
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: eleven sexual homicides, it was only eight percent that involved necrophilia. Okay,

721
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: So one last part to this study that they did,

722
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: they also developed a model to help understand what kind

723
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: of events led to these you know, psychological categorizations, and

724
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: this is what they found. They found four um as

725
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: you would imagine, poor self esteem, largely due to a

726
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: significant loss in their life. Um. So that would probably

727
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: bring us back to the you know, who wanted to

728
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: be reunited with their dead partners. Uh. As you would expect,

729
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: they're usually male, uh And there are men who have

730
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: a fear of being rejected by women. And so as

731
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: we discussed earlier, they desire a sex sex object that

732
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: is incapable of rejecting them. The third is that they

733
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: some of them actually have like a fear of the dead.

734
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: They're scared of being around dead bodies, and this like

735
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: as a way of conquering that, I suppose transform It

736
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: transforms that fear into a desire um, which I think

737
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: is fairly common transition, not necessarily with dead bodies. I

738
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: think most people don't experience it on that level. But

739
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: being afraid of something is also titillating, you know. That's

740
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: why we watch horror movies exactly. Uh. And then the

741
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: last one is just you know, the the fantasy of

742
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: some It sometimes begins after you've just had your first

743
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: exposure to a corpse, whether that's you know, as a

744
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,959
Speaker 1: child or an adult. Um. Yeah, it's a shocking and

745
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: and and and it makes an impact absolutely. Uh. So

746
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: there is there's there's a there's another pretty widely cited

747
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: study by a guy named I believe this is pronounced

748
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: a nil Agra wall uh and he he published this

749
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, and I I believe from what

750
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: I saw was that this was used to subsequently create

751
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: a new DSM entry on necrophilia and his His study

752
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: was called a New Classification for Necrophilia, was published in

753
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine in two thousand nine,

754
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: and he came up with ten categories. Okay, we'll go

755
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: through these. First up, role players, people who get aroused

756
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: from pretending their live partner is dead during sexual activity. Okay.

757
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: And then we have romantic necrophilia acts. These are these

758
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: are what we were discussing before, bereaved people who remain

759
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: attached to their dead lover's body, so they're you know,

760
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: this is about sorrow. Then the number three necrophiliac fantasize.

761
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: There's people who fantasize about necrophilia but never actually have

762
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: sex with a corpse. And there's tactile necrophiliacs, people who

763
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: are aroused by touching or just stroking a corpse without

764
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: engaging an intercourse. I seem to remember that there was

765
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: an extremely creepy episode of that TV show Millennium where

766
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: there was a guy who that was his particular thing

767
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: was just like showing up to funerals and pretending to

768
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: be a friend of the family just so I could

769
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: touch the corps. Number five is a fetishistic necrophiliacs. These

770
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: are people who remove objects or body parts, even from

771
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: a corpse, for sexual purposes, but without engaging an intercourse. Okay,

772
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: and then as you as you can see where kind

773
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: of this this list is getting worse as we're progressing.

774
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: Uh necro mutual omaniacs. These are people, I know that

775
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: sounds like a made up thing, but this is actually

776
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: sounds like for sure, people who derive pleasure from mutilating

777
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: a corpse while masturbating but not engaging in intercourse. Number

778
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: seven Opportunistic necrophiliacs. These are people who normally have no

779
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: interest in necrophilia, but they if they have the opportunity,

780
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: they're going to take it. So yeah, I mean, I

781
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: don't I'm having a really hard time imagining this scenario

782
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: where this would happen. But I guess when you're left

783
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: alone with a dead body for some reason and yeah,

784
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you're maybe you're performing an autopsy

785
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: or something. I'm not sure. Uh, regular NECROPHILIAX. That's people

786
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: who preferably, you know, just want to have sex with

787
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: the dead. So kind of back to that other model

788
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: that we talked about before, Like they would even probably

789
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: tell you look I'm not one of those exciting kind

790
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: of necrophiles. I'm just old school necrophile. Uh. And they're

791
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: again they're not killing people, right, let's be clear about that.

792
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,959
Speaker 1: That's the next one. Yeah. Number nine is homicidal necrophiliacs

793
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: that we've discussed already, people who want to who want

794
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: to commit in order to have sex with the dead.

795
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: And then there is the tenth one, which is exclusive necrophiliacs,

796
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: people who have an exclusive interest in sex with the

797
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: dead and cannot perform at all for living partners. Now,

798
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: this is what I think they categorized Jeffrey dahmeraz that

799
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: like in his case, this was the only way that

800
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: he could perform to have any kind of sexual gratification,

801
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: and subsequently led to him both being homicidal necrophiliac and

802
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: exclusive necrophiliac. Now, I have some other stats here just

803
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: to roll through from that Rossman and Resnick paper, just

804
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: to give you a little more idea about who necrophiles

805
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: are and uh in why they do what they do.

806
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: Sex in that study were male. Um, yeah, and I

807
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: found one rare female case was cited. Uh, And I

808
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: didn't have the time to be able to look up

809
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: the case study on this, but her name was Karen

810
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: green Lee, so apparently she's a well known female necrophiliacy.

811
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: The mean age was thirty four, which makes sense. You know,

812
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: you need to be young enough to get around and

813
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: not have anything tying you down, but also your sexual

814
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 1: appetite needs to have had time to reach this point

815
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: right right, And also probably you would need to be

816
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, as we know about like them taking employment

817
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: in situations that put them to your dead bodies, you

818
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: would need to be of age in order to kind

819
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: of have a job like that. Um, next up i Q.

820
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: And this is really interesting because there's there has long

821
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: been and still kind of remains, the stereotype of the

822
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: necrofile as being essentially, you know, mentally deficient, that they're

823
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, almost like the example of a stupid reptile

824
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: just engaging with this because they don't know anymore better.

825
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: But in uh in Rosmann Resnics paper, they point out

826
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: that all of the individuals that they profiled had i

827
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: q s above eighty and sixty nine percent had i

828
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: qs above a hundred and just to put that frame

829
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: of reference, normal to average intelligence is nine two d

830
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: and nine. So these for the most part we're not

831
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: dealing with the with unintelligent individuals. This isn't technically like

832
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: a disability and mental disability. This is deviant behavior. And

833
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,439
Speaker 1: among true necrophiles, s percent had i q s above

834
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: a hundred um. Sixty percent of the cases there was

835
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: a prior history of statistic acts. Uh. Sexual orientation attention

836
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: was pretty much comparable to the general population sent heterosexual,

837
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: thirteen bisexual, nine percent homosexual. There is not really surprising

838
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: um underlying mental problems. This is interesting because this also

839
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: gets into the idea that not only this preconceived notion

840
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: that necrophiles are all going to be both mentally deficient

841
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: and crazy. Only seventeen percent were psychotic, eleven percent among

842
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: true necrophiles had personality of disorders had unusual belief systems,

843
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: though seventy percent seventy three of pseudo necrophiles did, which

844
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: you know, makes sense. If you're fantasizing about sex with

845
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: the dead, you probably have, you know, a different worldview

846
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: from your average Yeah, that's fair. Of those pseudo necrophiles

847
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: consumed alcohol compared to forty of true necrophiles, So I

848
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: guess that's just I wonder what they mean by that.

849
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: If it's like alcoholism or just you know, they they did,

850
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: they didn't imbibe at all. It kind of I guess

851
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: I kind of think of it in terms of, you know,

852
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need a drink for this. Um. So maybe

853
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: the true necrophiles you actually don't see as much alcohol

854
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: consumption because it is like they are, they're kind of

855
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: enough in the necrophilia camp that there's no need for

856
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: liquid courage, Whereas if it's just your fantasy, then maybe

857
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing that you have to decompress

858
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: to get down to the point where you're fantasizing about it,

859
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: you know. Well. And then fifty seven percent of necrophiles

860
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: were found to be in an employed profession that gave

861
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: them access to dead bodies. We've got a list here,

862
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: hospital orderlies, more attendant, cemetery employees, funeral parlor workers, and

863
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: as you said earlier, clerics and soldiers. I found two

864
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: other studies that I feel like I need to be mentioned,

865
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: but I'm a little dubious of the reporting here, and

866
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: I'd like to see some more research or maybe if

867
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: anybody out there has experienced with this kind of research

868
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: or psychological experience, maybe they can tell us what they think.

869
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: But these two studies basically connected the symptoms of necrophilia

870
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: to both autism and asperger syndrome. Both these studies came

871
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: out in twleven and basically it seemed like their conclusions

872
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: were drawn from the fact that there was a similar

873
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: lack of empathy between those with Asperger's and those who

874
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: were interested in necrophilia. Uh, that was about it, um.

875
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: One of them, one of these studies said that they

876
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: they suggested something called autistic psychopathy lead to experimentation with chemistry, poisons,

877
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: and killing, which subsequently they kind of tied into necrophilia. Uh.

878
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: These studies were the first one is called necrophilia and

879
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: autistic psychopathy and the other one is necrophilia and serial killers.

880
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: Is there evidence for Asperger's syndrome? So, I mean this

881
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: is published research. I wanted to mention it, but I'm

882
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: also a little wary of making a connection between these

883
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: two different kind of mental states just based on the

884
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: lack of empathy. Yeah, I mean, there are only two

885
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: studies and it's such a a hotbed um topic that

886
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: I would uh yeah, I would hate to spend too

887
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: much time on it, but you know, hey, if we

888
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: see more more papers come out. Um, you know, maybe

889
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: we'll come back to it now. Another interesting thing about

890
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: necrophilia is when you get into illegal issues involved here,

891
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: because of course corpses are not really people, right, So

892
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: these are crimes that often fall through the cracks unless

893
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: there's a specific necrophilia law on the books, and without

894
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: such a law in place, it often proves difficult to

895
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: prosecute uh necrophiles. Yeah, and so this is, you know,

896
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: something that I guess I never thought about and sort

897
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: of assumed would be on the books. But obviously it's yeah, exactly.

898
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: But there was a case, you know, kind of one

899
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: of the leading cases was in Wisconsin in two thousand six. Uh.

900
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: It turned out there was a case where three men

901
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: were caught while they were trying to exhume a dead

902
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: woman for sex. Uh. The men admitted to it, but

903
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: another reason they know is that they brought a box

904
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: of condoms. I remember this. I think I blogged about it.

905
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: That's where I read about it. It was you were

906
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 1: the source for this one for me. But so what

907
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: ended up happening was technically their lawyers argued there was

908
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: no crime committed because there was no law on the

909
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: books that said that it was against the law. So

910
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: this prompted Wisconsin Supreme Court two years later in two

911
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 1: thousand eight, to finally decide on a law that forbid

912
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: copulating with the deceased. So that's one example. I'm sure

913
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: there are many other examples, but it's one of those

914
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 1: things where I guess, like, until it actually happens and

915
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 1: they need to prosecute, they don't put it on the books. Yeah,

916
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: are you going to be the weird politician who brings

917
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:23,479
Speaker 1: up just necrophilia laws when there's no apparent need, right, Yeah,

918
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: that's gonna kill your presidential aspects. Incidentally, that blog post

919
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: was one of the first ones I did for How

920
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: Stuff Works right after we started the blogs, and and

921
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 1: it was like immediately they had to hide it because

922
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: they were like, I don't know, there are a lot

923
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: of eyes in the blog. Let's not have this be

924
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: one of the top posts. That's too bad. I liked it. Well. Uh.

925
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: One of the other things that came out of this

926
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: when I was looking at the research here, is specifically

927
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: about the legality is many of the families who are

928
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: involved with incidents like this where a family member's corpse

929
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: is a victim of necrophilia. They have a problem of

930
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: it because they sort of psychologically think of the corpse

931
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: as being their property. Right, So, like, as you're saying before, yes,

932
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: it's not technically a living human being, some people would

933
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: probably argue, I wouldn't. This is a victimless crime, right,

934
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: But uh, it's not in that that the family members

935
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: see this as being their loved one and technically property

936
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: even though it's not a living person. Yeah, it kind

937
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: of comes down to just what a somewhat a complicated

938
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: area it occupies in our in our understanding of of

939
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: our life and our our biological life, even because it's

940
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: it's that it's our loved one, but it's not our

941
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: loved one. It's that it's a person, but it's not

942
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: really a person. Still. Yeah, And I mean, like I

943
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 1: said at the beginning, to you know, this is considered

944
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: to be the ultimate transgression in our culture, one of them. Uh,

945
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: and therefore it's something that we both have a hard

946
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: time talking about in sort of empirical terms like we're

947
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: trying to do today, or in legal terms. And then

948
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's so sensationalized that we can't

949
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: seem to stop talking about it. Whenever it comes up. Right,

950
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: I'm sure if you googled Wisconsin necrophilia, there's probably two

951
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 1: hundred newspaper articles out there from two thousands six when

952
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: this happened. You know, everybody was covering it that week. Yeah,

953
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: and then yet when you start thinking about it, it's

954
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: like if you have a deranged individual and if they

955
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: were to you know, put the question to you, Hey,

956
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to do one of two things this weekend.

957
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: Which should I do? Should I dig up a corpse

958
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: and copulate with it, or should I kill somebody? Or

959
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: should I even just assault somebody? Like obviously you're gonna

960
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: pick the corpse one because it is in a sense

961
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: of the victim was crime. Yeah, I would probably, uh,

962
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, call the police. Well, yes, that's the correct

963
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: that's the correct answer, you know, even if it's a

964
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: covering myself legally here, No matter how good of a friend.

965
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: I always when I think about this topic now, I

966
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: always come back to Cornt McCarthy's novel Child of God,

967
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: where the central character, Lester Ballard is a necrophile. Okay,

968
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: I haven't read that. It's it's exceedingly good. It's one

969
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: of those books I keep coming back to Um, because

970
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: it's this character is a very dark character, but you're

971
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: so close to him in the book. You do sympathize

972
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: with his with it, with his his psyche to a

973
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: large extent. It's it's so so very well presented. I

974
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: think in I was trying to think of fictional examples

975
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: for this episode. The only one I can remember is,

976
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: do you remember that Marquis Assad movie that had Jeffrey

977
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: Rush playing the Marquis Assad. I remember when it came out,

978
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: but I've never seen it in full. There's I believe

979
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 1: a scene in that in which Joaquin Phoenix engages in

980
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: necrophilia with Kate Winslet's corpse um And I think, you know, obviously,

981
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: because it's about the Marquis Assad, there's a certain amount

982
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: of of bacchanalia to the whole ring, right, Um. But

983
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: it's but it's if I remember the plot correctly. It's

984
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: been a long time since I've seen that movie. I

985
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: believe it was because like he was grieving for her

986
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, sort of in love. Interesting.

987
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: I should maybe see it at some point. I've read that.

988
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: I don't remember it being bad. I've read the sod

989
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: I find him to be a fascinating character. Yeah, yeah,

990
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: I think he's interesting in small doses. I have a

991
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty Days of Sodom, and I can only

992
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 1: read like maybe like two or three pages. I see,

993
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: I tried to read the whole thing. The problem with

994
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: a hundred twenty days is that, um, it's basically incomplete,

995
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: and so the further you get into the book, it

996
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: eventually breaks down into just an outline of what he

997
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: intended to finish. Yeah, I think they were originally published

998
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: the unreadable pamphlets, Is that right, like a series of pamphlets.

999
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: I think that. I think it's the one that he

1000
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: secretly wrote in a prison cellf So it was it was,

1001
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: it was hidden away for a while, but I never

1002
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: officially finished. So it's just in terms, and not only

1003
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: it's the content often to fficult to read, but it

1004
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: becomes increasingly unreadable as a word, because it's just a

1005
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: complete Yeah. Well yeah, that's mine market assad and you've

1006
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: got Cormac McCarthy to have literally great, it's a great book. Um.

1007
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: James Franco made a movie version, which I've heard good

1008
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: things about. I'll probably never see it, just because it's

1009
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: it's a book I love so much. I have such

1010
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: a crystal you know, it's a kind of mar your

1011
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: imaginary Yeah, but I hear good things, so you know,

1012
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: maybe our you know, listeners out there who aren't is

1013
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: into uh into reading reading, want to just you know,

1014
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: see a film, maybe check it out. If it's true

1015
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: to the book, then it'll it'll do. It does a

1016
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: good job. So there you have it, one from the vaults,

1017
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: one we're really proud of, and one that we thought

1018
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: everyone wouldn't it would either not mind listening to a

1019
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: second time, or you know, here's a chance to discover

1020
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: it for the first time. If you're a new or listener. Yeah,

1021
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: and if you've got some thoughts that you want to

1022
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: share with us now about necrophilia and what you learned

1023
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: in this episode, don't forget to write us at blow

1024
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more

1025
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: on this than batands over. Their topics is that how

1026
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com The big