1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: nor with you. Brian Kaplan, Professor of economics at George 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Mason University, blogger for Econlog, author of a number of books, 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: including The Myth of the Rational Voter, Selfish Reasons to 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: have More Kids, in the Case Against Education, and Open 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Borders as well. And here he is back on Coast 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: to Coast. He was last with me a little bit 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: more than a year ago. Brian, good to have you 10 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: back with us. Great to be back. What a time 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: to be back. Huh Yeah. I mean so I'm actually 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: teaching to classes in real life, so I'm really grateful 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: for that. But I'm one of the very few that 14 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: is well, you know, I just had this story before 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: you came on about all these universities concerned about what's 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: going to happen with their classes they open up, they 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: might have to close. Is online education worth it in 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: your opinion? Well, here's the thing. If you're doing it 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: through a regular university, then probably the world won't even 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: notice what you've done. You basically like, after a few years, 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: people will probably even forget exactly what was going on, 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: and you'll be able to look just like anybody else. 23 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you just try going to 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: YouTube and teaching yourself to material, the labor market is 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: not generally going to give you credit for that. So 26 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: you may say, but it's just as good. Why should 27 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: I have to pay any money. Unfortunately, when you do 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: something like that, you look pretty weird and the world 29 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: hold it against you. Now, you haven't been too happy 30 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: with our educational industry in the past, home, Sean, where 31 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: do I start? So the main thing that I say 32 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: is that most of what you learn in school is 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: not actually useful in the real world, and yet strangely 34 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: it does seem like employer's carolt about it. And in 35 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: my books the Cases against Education, I explain that the 36 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: real story is probably that employers are using your academic 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: performance just to screen out people that they think aren't 38 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: going to work out as employees. So if you've got 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: a hundred applications and it's not that hard to finish college, 40 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: you might very well say, fine, then I'll throw out 41 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: all the people that didn't finish college and that will 42 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: save me a lot of time. And yeah, maybe there'll 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: be some good applicants that didn't go to college, but 44 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: they're just too hard to sort out from the people 45 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: that just didn't have the brains or motivation to get through. 46 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: So anyway, what I basically say is that we've created 47 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: a system where from the point of view of the 48 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: individual student, college is a pretty good deal as long 49 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: as you are able to finish. But on the other hand, 50 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: for the point of view society, it's mostly to spending 51 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: for five six years learning a bunch of stuff you're 52 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: never going to use after the final exam. And isn't 53 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: Brian the best education working out there in the field. Yeah? 54 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. The way that I like to describe it 55 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: is that people like to think of educationist job training, 56 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: and a more accurate story is that education is mostly 57 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: a passport to the real which happens on the job. 58 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: The problem is that for most high skilled jobs, unless 59 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: you have those credentials, you're not going to get your 60 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: foot of the door to get them real training you 61 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: actually want. You You have used March as a stepping 62 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: stone as a point guide. Tell me why excuse me March, 63 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: the month of March. Was there anything different in March? Oh? Well, 64 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: March is when there was the big shutdown of course 65 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: all over the country, So universities all over the country shutdown. 66 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: Schools over the country shutdown. So that's that's where basically 67 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: online education went from being a really weird thing to 68 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: something that almost everyone who's college was doing. So I 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: think it has been destigmatized by quite a bit. Again, 70 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: the main issue is just that still if you just 71 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: try doing the same thing for free on YouTube, you're 72 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: probably not going to get credit for that. In the 73 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: labor market, it's all well and good to say, oh, well, 74 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: I know just as much as someone who actually paid 75 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: for the classes, But from employer's point of view, it's 76 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: just too hard to know whether that's true, and they 77 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: don't want to take the time to go and figure 78 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: out whether some person who says that they know at 79 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: all and they learned to talk themselves really did what 80 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: percent Brian's are your schools in universities open this fall 81 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: as opposed to being shut down because of COVID? Yeah, 82 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: so at my own university, I read a local newspaper 83 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: article claiming that forty percent of the classes are happening 84 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: in person. But when I walk around the campus, I 85 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: have trouble believing ten percent are. So I don't actually 86 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: have the numbers, even from my own university, but it 87 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: sure looks like almost everything is happening online and there's 88 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: just a very small number of classes that really happening. Again, 89 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't be a very a lot from school to school, 90 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: So I know, you know, UPA for example, claim they 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: were going to open and then they delayed for two weeks. 92 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: Let's University of Virginia in my home state. And then 93 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's a few schools sort of in college 94 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: towns where they have investival on testing and they're also 95 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: just telling the students not to leave campus. So whether 96 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: they can actually get away with that, maybe in a 97 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: remote school you could get away with it. But yeah, 98 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: it is an issue of course all over the country 99 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: as to what they're going to do. And basically most 100 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: schools are just opting for the path of extreme caution, 101 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: which I think is to stay a really bad idea. 102 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: But the people that are in charge with much much 103 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: much rather just avoid getting into any trouble than actually 104 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: stick their necks out and try to make the experience tolerable. Again, yeah, 105 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I don't think the best way 106 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: to defeat this virus is to hide from it and 107 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: to run away from it. I think we've got to 108 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: face it, you know, front on, and we've got to 109 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: get people to expose to it, let them build up 110 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: immunities and go from there. And I have recommended we 111 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: open up everything again. Yeah, I mean, so you know, 112 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: of what would I say is that the reasonable caution 113 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: makes sense for certain people? Yes, yeah, yes, yea for 114 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: certain people. So um, you know, so you know, like 115 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: like if if I knew that someone had it, I 116 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: probably know, like at my age, I don't want to 117 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: go and try try to catch to catch their germs, 118 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: But doesn't mean that I'm not going to see friends 119 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: or go places or do things, so you know, and 120 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: it's one where you know, you know, the risk I 121 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: would say is you know, a lot more than fluid, 122 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: but it's still a lot less than many other story 123 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: diseases that people did not shut down society for. So 124 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, the path of you know, 125 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: like a moderate caution I think it would have made 126 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: would have made a lot of sense. But of course 127 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: that's not the path that people took. It took the 128 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: path of I would says paranoia. See the CDC is 129 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: saying that most of the people have died from COVID, 130 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: well over ninety percent had prior conditions of other serious 131 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: illnesses and things like that. So the big question is 132 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: is had they not had those illnesses, what would the 133 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: percent of deaths have been if they were normally pretty healthy? 134 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: And I would say it would have been negligible. Oh yeah, 135 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, so you know, it's a very reasonable question. 136 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, all I going. Also, a lot 137 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: of the problem is that basically it's something about no 138 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: country on Earth will do volunteer, we pay human experimentation where, 139 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: which would be a fantastic way of finding out answers 140 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: to basically every difficult question in two to four weeks. 141 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: Right again, this is not doing anything crazy, is not 142 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: making anyone anyone participate. It's just saying here's the money. 143 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: If you will volunteer the participating these experiments, you will 144 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: receive money and we will get answers. But you know, 145 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: if I don't know of any country that's willing to 146 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: actually do this, um, you know, there's this idea this 147 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: is bio unethical. You know, my favorite line of the 148 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: bioethics is to ethics as astrology is to astronomy, and 149 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: it's really just a list of terrible ethical precepts of 150 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: saying that even when people want to go and contribute 151 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: to developing extremely useful knowledge, and they consent to do it, nevertheless, 152 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: still you can't do it. What do you think are 153 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: homeschooling Brian? Yeah, so I have been homeschooling my older 154 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: sons for five years, so obviously I'm pretty supportive. Since March, 155 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: I've actually been homeschooling my two younger kids us. The 156 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: main thing I would say about homeschooling during normal times 157 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: is that it's not It's a great option for some people, 158 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: it's not great for everybody. So if you're someone who 159 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: has a lot of job flexibility and you have a 160 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: lot of patients, and you've got kids that are interested 161 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: in doing it, then it's just great. On the other hand, 162 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: if you have someone where neither parent in the family 163 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: has a job that fits well with it, if the kids, 164 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have a lot of patients with kids, 165 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: if the kids just don't like being at homeschool, then 166 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: I'd say it's not such a good idea. I would 167 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: say now whenever I see people that are watching their 168 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: kids do zoom school. That's where I say, like, you 169 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: totally should do homeschool, right. I mean, even if you 170 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of patience, even if you've got 171 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: a job conflict, you might as well just go and 172 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: teach your own kids rather than sit over their shoulders 173 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: and be their monitor. Either way, you are spending your time, 174 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: but you can get a lot more learning for your kids. 175 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: It's a lot less boring to actually do something instead 176 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: of just be watching a child like a hawk. So 177 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: get back to get back to work. So when I 178 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: say you now, you know, at least at least for 179 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: a large majority kids under twelve, I would just say 180 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: the homeschooling is a no brainer. And when people say 181 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: they're not doing it, I mean I really you know, 182 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: Like again, if you've got an option to send your 183 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: kid to regular school, then they're getting at least daycare. 184 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: But right now you're not getting any daycare from the school. 185 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: So if you're not getting that, then you might as 186 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: well actually go and teach. You Unless you don't know 187 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: your ABC's and rhythms it yourself, you're qualified hotest homeschooling 188 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: work in terms of the curriculum, the credits and things 189 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, do schools school districts look at 190 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: that as something that's usable and applical to you know, 191 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: moving on to get your high school diploma for example. Right, 192 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: so it varies tremendously by state. I know, the states 193 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: that I'm in, which you knew very well. So and yeah, 194 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: the answer is that if you are a homeschooler, you 195 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: are not going to have a normal high school diploma. However, 196 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: if there's no thing stopping you from applying to college, 197 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: and mostly like large majority colleges now are very open 198 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: to homeschoolers. The key thing is that you don't only 199 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: want to say I homeschool my kid and he's great. Yeah, 200 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: so that's all you've got then, and then colleges are 201 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: not going to be very interested in you. On the 202 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: other hand, if you've got standardized test scores, if you 203 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: make an effort to get outside certification thing, any of 204 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: people often recommend how about go and take and take 205 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: a few classes your community college or something like that, 206 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: so you supplement it, and so like, it's not just 207 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: his dads who says that he's great, he's got a 208 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: from a community college. So you know, you basically just 209 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: need to be thinking about what can I do to 210 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: reassure colleges that my kid actually is is going to 211 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: be ready to do the work. Listen to more Coast 212 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern, and 213 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more