1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: From September nineteen thirty three to July nineteen thirty four, 2 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: John Dillinger was the most famous outlaw in history. It 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: was the Great Depression, so it was the recipe. It 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: was perfect for desperadoes to pop up run the Midwest, 5 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Robin Banks, breaking out of jail and killing people. The 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: FBI literally branded their entire image on capturing Dillinger, but 7 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: there is a question did they catch him. Tonight we 8 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: have the nephew and great nephew of John Dillinger. I 9 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: am so excited to welcome Mike and Travis Thompson to 10 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: Zone seventh. Gentlemen, how are you? 11 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: We are great? Doing good. 12 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: I tell you I got to experience something with y'all, 13 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: and I've just got to tell people a little bit 14 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: about it. But I got a phone call and Mike says, hey, 15 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: you want to come out to Indiana and play and 16 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: walk on Dillinger's farm and watch some canines work to 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: see whether or not maybe we can find a Cleindestine grave, y'all. 18 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: I started driving north before he finished talking. I was 19 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: so excited, and I was excited to meet him because 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: we've been friends online for years, but I've never met 21 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: him in person, and then I had a chance to 22 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: meet his son, Travis. And let me tell you something 23 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: about both these men. Mike is probably one of the 24 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: most welcoming friendly. I mean, I felt like I was 25 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: rolling up on a family reunion the way he greeted 26 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: me when I got out of the car. And funny 27 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: and Travis. You know, he's one of those He's a 28 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: little bit quiet, super friendly, super welcoming, but he you know, 29 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: he's going to wait and check you out first, which 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: I respect that. But he has also dedicated his entire 31 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: life to law enforcement, federal, state, and local levels. When 32 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: I tell you, this was like fantasy camp for me. 33 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: I loved every second that I got to spend with them. 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: So I just wanted people to know that about y'all first, 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: because that afternoon in October that was something else. 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: Well, I had a good time. 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Mike, tell us a little bit about when you 38 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: first started to seriously try to prove whether or not 39 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: the FBI captured John Dillinger. 40 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: Well, for a long time when I was younger and stuff, 41 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: I really just you know, John was my uncle. I 42 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: didn't really think that much more about it. I knew 43 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: the stories and what Maman talked about. But as years 44 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: got gone on and different ones would contact me and stuff, 45 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: I finally got to really checking into it, and then 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: there was a little bit of doubt they really got him. 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: And so when a producer from California come and was 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: he actually was working with the History Channel, and we 49 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: wasn't even talking about anything about exooming or anything else 50 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: about John. Was just talking about maybe trying to track 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: his route where hit him and the gang went, maybe 52 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: places people didn't know and stuff. And then more we 53 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: got checking into it and stuff, we decided we might 54 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: as well prove it was John they got or not. 55 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: And that's what really got me interested. When we started 56 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: doing that, we kind of run into a few roadblocks, 57 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: and it was it was actually the FBI stepping in 58 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: not wanting this to do things. So that even made 59 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: me wonder more, why are they doing. 60 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: This exactly exactly? I mean, that's one of those things 61 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: that would stop you dead in your tracks. I mean, 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: why in the world, I mean, he's been since nineteen 63 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: thirty four, Why would they have an issue with proven 64 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: whether or not he's in the family plot forty four? 65 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you knew you got him, all 66 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: I'm doing is proven you did what you said you did, 67 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: And as all I was wanting it got to the 68 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: point I just wanted to prove, you know, it's John 69 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: definitely in the grave or not in the Crown Hill 70 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 2: Cemetery was all with us on doing it at first, 71 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, supposedly the FBI showed 72 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: up there and talked to him and copied some of 73 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: their files and stuff. And I do know for a 74 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: fact this through the lawyer I had at the time 75 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: that they went to the Health Department and didn't want 76 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: them to issue me another permit to exhume the body. 77 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: And they flat told told the lawyer that I mean 78 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: it was FBI told him not to do it. They 79 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: went ahead and did it. But so okay, as John 80 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: and that did they kill John? Is he in that 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: spot or did they move him? You know, what's the deal? 82 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: Why do they not want us to exume that body? 83 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: Because there is some family folklore, right you know, you 84 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: and I talked about he was buried and then his 85 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: daddy went and exhumed him and possibly moved him to 86 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: the family farm. 87 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: Maybe moved him either there or to another family plot, 88 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: and maybe just let everybody think he was still there, 89 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: so because they were afraid that somebody was going to 90 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: dig him up and stuff, and they so they put 91 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: concrete over the top of the grave. Well I just 92 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: thought that was it. But then I got thinking maybe 93 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: when they did that, they moved him, because why are 94 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: they so worried about us digging that spot up? 95 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: But let's talk about the con cree because you know, 96 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: again you're talking about the Great Depression. Granddaddy didn't have 97 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: any money. 98 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: No, he was just a firmer. 99 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: So now he's got to pay somebody to mix up 100 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: this concrete go over to the cemetery pour it. I mean, 101 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: that's a great expense back then. 102 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: I don't know my grandfather paid for that. Where he 103 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 2: come up with the money for that, for sure, But 104 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: that was what was always said, that they put the 105 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: slabs over over top the grave that keep grave bribers 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: from digging him up. I mean they chip away at 107 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: his headstone. They've replaced that headstone three times right over 108 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: the years. 109 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: So and we do know that's a thing, I mean, 110 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: especially back then, go and get souvenirs. I mean they 111 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: did with Bonnie and Clyde. They did, you know, with 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: any famous you know crime or criminal at the time, 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it. So your granddaddy would have 114 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: been forward thinking to protect him because he would have 115 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: known that would have been something. 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: To yeah, especially as famous he was at that at 117 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: that point in time. 118 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: So Travis, you being in law enforcement, you being at 119 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: the federal level, when you hear the FBI is trying 120 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: to stop y'all, what comes to your mind that. 121 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,119 Speaker 2: They know something? 122 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: Why would you stop the family members trying to find 123 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: out if that's a real loved one or not. And 124 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: going back to what you were talking about the concrete, 125 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: My great grandfather couldn't afford fifty dollars to embalm his 126 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 3: fun I mean fifty dollars a lot of money. I 127 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: guarantee you that concrete cost a lot more. So that's 128 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: kind of odd. The the FBI getting involved has, you know, 129 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: piqued my interest, you know, I always growing up believed 130 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: it with him buried and was killed in nineteen thirty four. 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: But after going through my law enforcement. 132 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: Career and looking at the FBI files and then talking 133 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: to Stuart Fillmore about his report a lot, I mean 134 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 3: I have to pull both figs my family side and 135 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: in my law enforcement side, and I want to follow 136 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: the evidence, and the evidence is pointing more and more 137 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: towards that is an impost buried in Crownell Cemetery. 138 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to talk a little bit about the 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: evidence because when I was little, about third or fourth grade, 140 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: I was the type of person I wanted to believe 141 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: they didn't get him, you know, to say I was 142 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of a John Dillinger fan. I mean, it sounds weird, 143 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: but I was. And I thought that John Dillinger was funny. 144 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: I thought he was, you know, quick witted and intelligent 145 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: and connivin and that sort of thing he was conning. 146 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: But he knew what he was doing. I mean he 147 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: even said all he ever wanted to be was a 148 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: bank robber, and he wanted to be the best there 149 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: ever was. So when you start looking at things like 150 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: the eyeglasses, the pocket watch, you know, the guns that 151 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: were found owning and the ones that weren't, the fact 152 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: that they would get a drop on him from a 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: woman for a movie like that, just to me was 154 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: not the ending that should have happened. I mean, it 155 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: should have legitimately been a shootout at a bank robbery, 156 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: not him. Just asually, walking down the street and it 157 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: wasn't one woman, it was two, which was weird too 158 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: when you find that out. 159 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you got to think the agents that were 160 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 3: on the scene, including Melvin Purvis, had never seen John live. 161 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: They've only seen pictures of him. They had never so 162 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 3: in the dark, you know, them trying to point out 163 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 3: if that's the real guy or not. And that comes 164 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 3: back to a lot of my theory of you know, Hoover, 165 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 3: you know he was in hot water after the little 166 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 3: Bohemiologic shootout. I mean, they had killed anocent people. Congress was, 167 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: you know, up in arms about it. That goes where 168 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 3: I believe if they killed the wrong guy and they 169 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: covered it up, they were have covered it up to 170 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 3: keep the FBI from being torn apart if he got away. 171 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 3: If John really did get away, I don't believe he 172 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 3: lived very long. I think Hoover would have want to 173 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: tied up that loose end, would have had him tracked, 174 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: killed and buried in an unmarked grave somewhere. 175 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about the lodge just in 176 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: case people don't know about it. So Mike, can you 177 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: just give everybody a quick rundown about what happened? There. 178 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 2: Well, they hit out the little Bohemia Lodge in Wisconsin, 179 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: and which was quite a ways away from anything, a good, 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: pretty good place to hide out, and I think some 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: of the people in Chicago give him the lead to 182 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: go to that place. So that's where they went. And 183 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: then somehow the f well wasn't the FBI, because they 184 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: wasn't the FBI yet, the FEDS got a tip they 185 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: were there. So they got it all surrounded and some 186 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: local guys that were there having some drinks go to leave. 187 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: The Fed go to stop them. They didn't, actually, I 188 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: don't think they was able to hear what they was saying. 189 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: They started shooting at the car. They killed. I think 190 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: they killed two of them, one of them lived, but 191 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: they killed three or two innocent bystanders, and that alerted 192 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: the gang, and the gang slipped out of there. There 193 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: was a gun battle, but John and them slipped out 194 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: the back. I think Babyface kind of shouted out with him, 195 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: but they slipped out of ravine and got out of 196 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 2: there because that alerted them and they slipped away. Wasn't 197 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: a good deal for him. 198 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 3: Not only were they embarrassed, the local sheriff wanted to 199 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: bring murder charters on them. 200 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,479 Speaker 1: And that's always been evidence to me too, because Purvis 201 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: was in charge of that scene. And I am telling 202 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: you the little that I know about Hoover, I don't 203 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: know why he wasn't fired. 204 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that was a big deal. 205 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: It was a huge deal. And the fact that he 206 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: not only stayed with the Bureau but was then given 207 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: another shot at Dillinger. There was no way it was 208 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: going to fail one way or the other. But they 209 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: left some stuff behind at the lodge that I think 210 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: is very telling. They didn't find any money, but they 211 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: did find personal items. 212 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: Actually, once they got done with they actually sent a 213 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: trunk home from Little Ballin and it had a hunting 214 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: suit in it that John had because John, when he 215 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: was young, he liked to hunt and stuff, so I 216 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: guess he'd planning on hunting and the suit was bought 217 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: in Chicago, and so that was one of the items. 218 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: And I can't remember that all the other items, but 219 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: that was sent home to my grandfather. And they had 220 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: done Saint Paul, Minnesota. They'd sent a trunk home from 221 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: there where he escaped and hit John actually on that one, 222 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: they said, oh, there's a trunk here with some of 223 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: your stuff, isn't it. And John looked at the overcoat 224 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 2: and he goes, that's he goes, that's pure points that 225 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: when that's way too big for me. But some of 226 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: the stuff was his, but he laughed about it and 227 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: he goes, that's our mine. But yeah, they did from 228 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: Little Bohemia. I had actually mom had that hunting suit 229 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: for quite some time and some other items that were 230 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: sent home after they got done with they sent it 231 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: to my grandfather from up at the lodge. And my 232 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: grandfather and mother had went up there and visited ended 233 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: up being friends with what Nika and his family up there, 234 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: so they went up there several different times. After John 235 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 2: was supposedly. 236 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: Killed, Mike, I want to ask you and Travis both 237 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: and Mike, you can go first at the scene from 238 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: the Biograph theater, what is the number one reason you 239 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: think it was not John Dillinger. 240 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: There was a lot of e witnesses that were there 241 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: that wrote to my grandfather and a lot of them 242 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: said that they did not believe that was John got 243 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: killed there just the description of him wasn't totally quite right. 244 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: And then when my grandfather and my uncle Hubert went 245 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: to go pick up the body in Chicago. The eye 246 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: collar didn't match. There was some some different couple of 247 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: cars that should have been there. They didn't notice. They 248 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: kind of got pulled over to the side and had 249 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: a talk with the FEDS at the time, and then 250 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: they come home and Audrey, his oldest his oldest sister 251 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: supposedly I identified the body in that, but a lot 252 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: of the people was there at the biograph. I believed 253 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: that wasn't John at the time, and a lot of 254 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: letters were sent sent to my grandfather. 255 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: Well, the eye color is a big thing. I mean, 256 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: it's documented, not just families saying it. 257 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: When when he was brought back here. That was my grandfather, Hubert, 258 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: and the owner of the Morsel Times at the time 259 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: had went to Chicago and brought him back. And I 260 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: think the owner of the Morsel Times had made a 261 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: statement that he didn't he didn't think it. 262 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: Okay, it was John Travis. How about you. 263 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot I would say. The eye color 264 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: is a big thing. The fb hive autopsy report and 265 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: the local Chicago death tufficting didn't match. They had age, wrong, 266 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 3: height wrong. 267 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: You know. 268 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: They John with myth and a few teeth that wasn't 269 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: in the report, scarring that he supposedly had with it 270 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: on the death stuff gate afterwards, you know, some of 271 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 3: the guns got dumped off into the lake. It's extremely weird, 272 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: especially how sloppy the report was. I mean, of all 273 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 3: the FBI reports of the era that I went through, 274 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: they're very detailed, very put the well together. I mean, 275 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: that's what Hoover, you know, prided himself on. And this 276 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 3: is the most advanced law enforcement I ain't seen the land. 277 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: But why is it that the most notorious bank robber 278 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: at the time you got him, but all your reports 279 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 3: are sloppy? Why is that? 280 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: That's to me? 281 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: That doesn't it's not the characteristic of the FBI at 282 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 3: the time or now. 283 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: Well, you know again, I think when we all got 284 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: together in October, Joe from Digging Up Dillinger, which is 285 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: a fantastic podcast that all of y'all are involved in. 286 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: You know, Joe was so instrumental in getting some of 287 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: the right people together y'all. He got a group of 288 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: canine experts to come meet us at the farm to 289 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: do the search. And a lot of times if you 290 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: have two or three dogs, that's great, but he had 291 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: like nine and they worked that area, all independent, all 292 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: different breeds of dogs, different times of the day, all independent, 293 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: without leashes. They weren't being led in any way, and 294 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: watching those animals work was just fascinating. I've worked with 295 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: canine's for my entire career, but this event was unlike 296 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: anything I'd ever seen. And there was one particular dog 297 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: that had my undivided attention because that dog went to work, 298 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: he hit on something I guess on the west side 299 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: of the farm and just wouldn't turn it loose. Was 300 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: just darting back and forth, back and forth in a 301 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: very concentrated area. And I know that's when Mike and 302 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: Travis and I started talking, like, watch that doverman pincher, 303 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: because that dovererman's owned to something. 304 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was working. And then later on some of 305 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: the other dogs hit on the same spot. 306 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: That's right. And that's when you will never convince me 307 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: there's not evidence there, because I'm going to believe the dog, 308 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: especially one that's not on the leash, is not being led, 309 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: has never been to that property. And then a second 310 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: dog goes over there, then a third dog goes over there, 311 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: so there's definitely something. And Shane, who owns the Dillinger 312 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: farm now, was so gracious and letting us come. But 313 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: the other thing, Mike that knocked me out was while 314 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: the dogs were working, Shane all of a sudden brings 315 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: out a scrap book. 316 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was a great fun, Oh. 317 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: My gosh, And there were several things in it that 318 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: were extraordinary. The first one was a newspaper four days 319 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: after the event at the theater, four days now, y'all, 320 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: and it had an absolute reconstruction of what happened that night. Now, 321 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: this is the front page of the newspaper, top fold, 322 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: I mean, right there, and it says it's got a 323 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: photograph of the evening and it says number one Dillinger 324 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: walking with two women. Number two Purvis standing alone under 325 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: the theater lights. Three Dealinger. The women break off, they 326 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: just walk in another direction, and now Dillinger is walking alone. 327 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 1: Number four It shows Dillinger by himself going toward the alley. 328 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: And then it says at the bottom the Dellinger in 329 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: this a direct quote, is met with a hell of 330 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: federal bullets. And I'm like, wait a minute. And that 331 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: quick short amount of time, they already know there was 332 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: two women, not one. They already know exactly where Purvis 333 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: was standing. They know how the women broke off to 334 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: leave him by hisself. Now that don't sound like a setup. 335 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 3: It's very interesting that that information all got out a 336 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 3: couple of days after. 337 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, within seventy two hours. They know the whole plan. 338 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: I just thought that was mind boggling. And to see it, 339 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not something that somebody told us about. 340 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: It's right there the actual newspaper, and also inside were flowers. 341 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: One was a lily that traditionally is a funeral flower. 342 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: So I don't know if this person had ties to 343 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: your family, but it certainly looked like somebody that did. 344 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: It looked to me like this was somebody that was 345 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: directly blood related and kept this at the time. 346 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the preserve something took very good care 347 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 3: of it. So I meant to somebody it was a 348 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: great find that he stumbled across that. 349 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: Then the other thing at the farm. There are tons 350 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: of Mason jars y'all have found, but tell them about 351 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: the one critical, you know, Mason jaw. 352 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: They had ground penetrating radar go over the area of 353 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: what Shane owns and covered the whole area pretty well 354 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 2: and Chris Crossing. I think they marked eighteen places that 355 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: the ground was there was something disturbed, definitely something there. 356 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: And so Paulina, which happened was the producer at the 357 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: time that we were working with, had camera crew there 358 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: and stuff, and so he had me dig the first 359 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: first fight that he looked at and thought, well, we'll 360 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: do it right here. So I dug that spot and 361 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: actually it ended up being a pretty good sized rock 362 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: and that the metal detectors went off on it with 363 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: pinging on it hard. And then from that spot, a 364 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: little ways on back from mine, in the area that 365 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: pretty much probably has never been disturbed, Travis got to 366 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: dig up a spot and he dug just a little 367 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: ways down and ended up hitting a part of a 368 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: well pipe. And so Stuart Fillmore, which is retired FBI, 369 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: he was supposed to dig up a spot which was 370 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: close to where Travis was, and he had been looking 371 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: around while we'd been doing those other ones, and there 372 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: was kind of a spot that was over the edge 373 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: into a ravine that the weeds kind of up higher. 374 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: It's about as far as they could go with those 375 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 2: ground penetrating radars, and he said, I'd really like to 376 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: dig up this and this is probably the lead most 377 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: any area that could be disturbed at any time, and 378 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: so the camera crew said, yeah, it wouldn't be nothing, 379 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: so they got set up on it. And so when 380 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: Stuart I think the fourth time in with his shovel, 381 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: he hit something and when I seen his face, I 382 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: could tell it was something, and we all kind of 383 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: eased up and looked, and he had hit a mason 384 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: jar and it was under this big roote, so it 385 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: had been up under this and this route had grown 386 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: over it over the years, and he had it is 387 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 2: a good thing to shovel hit the root because it 388 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 2: popped the jar, but it kept the shovel kind of 389 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: went off so it didn't mess it up. And inside 390 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: that mason jar was a map of the United States, 391 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: and it was a shell map from like a shell 392 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: gas station that you would get instead of just being 393 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: the state Indian or something, that happened to be the 394 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: whole United States. And there was a route on that map, 395 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: but we didn't know first when we first seen it 396 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: what it was until we got it out there. But 397 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: it was a very interesting. 398 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: Fine absolutely And let me just for the people in 399 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: Zone seven listening to us during the Great Depression, people 400 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: buried things in their yard, in coffee cans, in mason 401 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: jars because they no longer trusted banks, They no longer 402 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: trusted Hey, you can leave this at your office or somewhere, 403 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: or inside your house. They would bury things that they 404 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: wanted to keep and preserve, and they would do it 405 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: on their own land where they knew where it was, 406 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: but nobody else would. They wouldn't market because they wouldn't 407 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: have to. So one thing that I did when I 408 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: was walking the farm, I looked for what would be 409 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: like a natural landmark, like an exposed rock or a 410 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: gigantic live oak, something like that. Bonnie and Clyde used 411 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: coke bodels to send messages to their families. So they 412 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: would toss a coke moodel in a cornfield. They would 413 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: go find it and the message will be inside. So again, 414 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: it made perfect sense to me. And there's some naysayers 415 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: out there about this map that you know, Bill Moore 416 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: might have planned it. Let me tell y'all something that 417 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: man is beyond reproach. His career speaks for itself. He 418 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: has researched and studied, investigated everything from the Alcatraz escape 419 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: to the jfk assassination to John Dillinger. His entire career 420 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: with the FBI is stellar and without any blemish. And 421 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: this is the last thing I'm gonna say about it. 422 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: If he had planned something that had a code or 423 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: secret message to it, he would have decoded it. He can't. 424 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: He doesn't know what it means. He doesn't. 425 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: We've been trying to figure it out. 426 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: Having him crazy to figure it out. That is not 427 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: what he would have planned. He would have planted something 428 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: that would have made him look like a hero, not 429 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. 430 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: It definitely has a route or something on it. 431 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: It absolutely means something. But to the author it would 432 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: be very clear. And once it does get cracked, and 433 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: I believe that it will, it's going to make perfect 434 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: sense to everybody. But again, nothing that somebody would plan 435 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: and not have that woohoo ending you know what I mean. 436 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that day. 437 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 3: I mean, after we found it and we got the 438 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 3: mathon Jar out, Stuart Fillmore went off by himself on 439 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 3: the side and started researching the math in Jar to 440 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 3: figure out what era, what years that was made in. 441 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: So he already started researching it immediately, and that's what's that. 442 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 3: I mean, the History Channel and the networks don't believe 443 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 3: this is a very To me, it's a very big 444 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: historical artifact. 445 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 2: And if anybody that was there that's seen it, I 446 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: mean it was under this big route. The root had 447 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: grown up over and around that jar. Basically, I mean, 448 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: there's no way anybody planted it in that and I 449 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: mean the mud was all it definitely been there for 450 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 2: a long time. 451 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: And this is why cases like this are so fascinating, 452 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: because the Mason Jar logo did change decades to decade, 453 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: the color of the jar, the type of lid, all 454 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: of that can help date that jar, and that's what 455 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: he was trying to do when that jar was brought out. 456 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: When I was there, I saw two fibers inside the jar, 457 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: stuck in mud that to me almost looked like from 458 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: a sweater. It didn't look like it was human hair 459 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: to me. But again that can be tested. I mean 460 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: under a microscope, it wouldn't take one second to know 461 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: whether that was hair or fiber. I mean, I say, 462 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: we do it. And again that's not something that would 463 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: be planted that maybe somebody he would see because it 464 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: was the only reason I saw it, because it was 465 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: in the sunlight, and I was able to hold up 466 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: every single piece and there were two so not planted 467 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: at all. 468 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 3: Going back to the map from a lot of the 469 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 3: listeners might not know, but there's a second map and 470 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 3: it was found in Nobleville, Indiana in nineteen thirty four, 471 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: when Hubert and John were driving back from Ohio. Hubert 472 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 3: fell asleep and wrecked the car. Well, they abandoned it 473 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 3: and left. The FBI found a Indiana shell map with 474 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: a bunch of weird writing and numbers on it that 475 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: the Army Corps of Engineers couldn't break, and then the 476 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 3: FBI destroys it. 477 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: And Youbert happened to own a shell gas station at 478 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: the time. 479 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: And you know, even when I came up to visit 480 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: with y'all, I took forty one because from Indiana to Florida, 481 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: that's the route that Dillinger would have taken, So I 482 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: wanted to go past some of the same landmarks and 483 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: some of the jails and courthouses, churches there's still standing today. 484 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: So you can literally see like some coordinates that could 485 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: have been marked by landmarks. But we all have our 486 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: own shorthand whether we realize it or not. There are 487 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: marks that I can make or the way that I 488 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: write certain letters or whatever that are only mine. I 489 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: can interpret why I wrote it the way that I did, 490 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: but somebody else may not cant. So again, if we 491 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: had that map even to overlay with this one, I 492 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: think it would make perfect sense. But not only can 493 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: the map be dated, Soaking the ink, soaking the jar. 494 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: That the ink has definitely been was one of the 495 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: what was the felt tip pins or whatever that that 496 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: has definitely been already proven. That was the kind of 497 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: ink on it. It was like you you like, dab 498 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: it on your tongue and right and then. 499 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you had to touch it with your tongue 500 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: to get it going. So again, that's a period, significant 501 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: event that that occurred there. And you know, when I 502 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: was at your place, Mike and you started showing different artifacts, 503 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: I was knocked out by what all y'all have. And 504 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: one of the things we talked about were even some 505 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: of the letters, well back then you had to lick 506 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: them stamps That A is quite possibly still right there. 507 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: So again, we could have DNA, we could have the ink, 508 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: we could have the plants. And let me tell you something, 509 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: plants can be dated to y'all that carbon date and 510 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: make no joke, we can tell how old that lily is, 511 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: for example. So the lot of the these things could be connected. 512 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: And if you're looking at the exact same time period 513 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: and we can all determine that this was all done 514 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: prior to nineteen forty, then you've got to look at 515 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: it as factual. 516 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 2: And one of the articles I showed you happened to 517 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: be the have like four handkerchiefs that were John's and 518 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: Mom had, and there's you know, whether it's blood on it. 519 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: It's rusty looking on a couple of them, so that 520 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: could be maybe able to get DNA from them. I 521 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 2: know over the years they definitely been handled, but. 522 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: Oh it's definitely blood. There was no question in my mind. 523 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: You had the coins from the birthday, You had so 524 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: many things. You had one of the death masks. But 525 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, when I tell people how kind you are 526 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: and how thoughtful, you knew just from our friendship that 527 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: Bonnie and Cod was the first day my mom ever 528 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: told me as far as true crime, that kind of 529 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: got me started. She said, Hey, I want to show 530 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: you something. Tell everybody what you showed me. 531 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually, when my mom traveled with her father after 532 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: John disposedly killed. He went on the train with actually 533 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: with Bonnie and Bonnie's mom and then on the crime 534 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: doesn't pay to her. And so my mom was only twelve. 535 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 2: So Bonnie's mother kind of watched down after Mom while 536 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: my grandfather was given the talks and stuff. And I 537 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: think she grew fond of my mother. I know my 538 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: mother did her, and so she give my mother it's 539 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: probably like three maybe four links off the watchchain that 540 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: was on Bonnie when she was killed, and Mom put 541 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: an envelope and wrote on it, and she had kept 542 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: it all that time. 543 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm telling y'all. I just thought that 544 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: was very thoughtful of Mike to make sure that I 545 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: got to hold those. And you know, Rayleen Linder is 546 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: my buddy who is Bonnie's niece, and it was just 547 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of this full circle thing for me that, you know, 548 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: these stories that I grew up hearing about and learning 549 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: about and want to somehow be a part of now 550 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: I am. So I just again, Mike wanted to tell 551 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: you how much that meant to me, and I appreciated it. 552 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: Well. I kind of thought that you would like that, 553 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: so that was one of the things I wanted to 554 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: definitely show you in It's I mean, Mom really thought 555 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: a lot of her and I actually I think they 556 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: even wrote each other years later and stuff. But yeah, 557 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: she was very fond of her. 558 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: And you know what kind of sticks out for me too, 559 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: is these connections, Like when you talk about the crime 560 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: doesn't pay to her. I don't know if people that 561 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: are maybe in their twenties now really true crime is 562 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: nothing new. Like my mother was fascinated by it because 563 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: that's how she grew up. I mean she was born 564 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty, so she knew all these stories from 565 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: the newspapers and it was exciting. I mean it was 566 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger and baby 567 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: Face Nelson. Who couldn't be captivated by these stories of 568 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 1: these people that yes they were outlaws, but you didn't 569 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: have TV, you certainly didn't have reality people and this 570 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: was it. This is why they were so famous. 571 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: She got to meet Geene Harlowe, which happened to be 572 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 2: John's favorite actress back then, and Mom got a autograph 573 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: picture saying to her to Francis from Jeene Harlow, oh. 574 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: You showed me and let me tell you it was 575 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: a stunning photograph. I mean, that was a flawless woman. 576 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: Honey. 577 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, John had the taste. 578 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 2: Yep. 579 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: But you know again, I think he's funny. I think 580 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: that he had a great sense of humor that showed 581 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: in some of the crimes that he committed. Convincing people 582 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: that the bank robbery was a movie they were filming, 583 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: and the poor tailor screaming her head off asking for help, 584 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: everybody thought, God, what a great actress he is. I 585 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: mean there were things he did that I thought were 586 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: just not only hilarious but brilliant. 587 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, getting a picture with the Chicago police officer run. 588 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, exactly. All right, Mike, are we done with 589 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: the farm? 590 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: I don't believe we're quite done with the farm, met 591 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 2: I think. I think the woman that was over the dogs, 592 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 2: she actually wants to come back and bring them back. 593 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 2: She's in Shane, I think, is willing to have them back. 594 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: So I think we're going to go back and maybe 595 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: hit a few more spots. Well, I mean, when we 596 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 2: were filming Expedition on Known, we discovered other mathon jars, 597 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 2: just like the ones that had the map in it. 598 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: So I believe there's more artifacts or possibly more items 599 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: to discover. I mean, Billy Fouchett said that when she 600 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: was there in April of thirty four with John on 601 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 2: the family farm, John wrapped money in oil soaked rags 602 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: and buried it on the farm. So is it's still there? 603 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 2: Who knows? Hopefully we find it. 604 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely no, I say, there's no doubt. We got to 605 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: go back. And last thing I'll say, I would love 606 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: to have an original layout of the farm and overlay 607 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: it to where the houses and new buildings instructors are 608 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: now to really say, hey, I think this is where 609 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: I would look. 610 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 2: Well, I know there's which I've seen some of the 611 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: old aerial photographs up the area back then, so yeah, 612 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: it'd be cool to look to see, you know, there's 613 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: definitely the newer houses and the apartments and stuff that's 614 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 2: been built on the property and try to go to 615 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: the areas it's not been disturbed. 616 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: I've got my Mason jar from there and I look 617 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: at it every day and I'm itching to go back 618 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: because there's no way there's just one map or you know, 619 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: the forty seven jars y'all have found. There's more out there. 620 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I want to do. The theory I've been 621 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 3: thinking about is what I want to do is get 622 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 3: an Indiana map of nineteen thirty four shell map, just 623 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 3: like what was found in the car that we you know, 624 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,959 Speaker 3: got destroyed, and then lay the US shell map over 625 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 3: it and see what cities north points because maybe that 626 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 3: was the key. I want to do an overlay of 627 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 3: those two maps and see where, you know, I mean, 628 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 3: we have nothing enough to do but ves to get 629 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 3: that map. 630 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, and as Stuart Steward has said, you know, 631 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: is it actually was it a route that was on 632 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: that map? Is it actually a code to something? I 633 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: mean it it it goes to Florida, goes up and 634 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: touches into Canada. I mean right, yeah. 635 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: Well area, Well he had to go through Georgia. I 636 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: know that. 637 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was actually which I didn't know until we 638 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 2: really got to look it into that he actually hid 639 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 2: out in Texas in a place. Well. 640 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting, you know about the map and 641 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 3: other theories we have in the FBI files. When John 642 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 3: was arrested the tooth on Arizona, before they could get 643 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 3: a hold of him, he took a piece of paper 644 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 3: and wattered it up and ate. 645 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: It, so you know what what was that? What I 646 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 2: mean with that? 647 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: With that connections and then we also have the address 648 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 3: book that may be a key to the map as well. 649 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: There's a lot of a lot of spots that's on 650 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 2: that map that's actually in that address book. 651 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: His body and the money, they're somewhere. I say, we 652 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: keep going. 653 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 2: Before I'm gone, I would love to either prove it 654 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 2: is him that was there or it's not. And if 655 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 2: it's not, where do you go? If he got away? 656 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: I believe he's out west somewhere towards California. 657 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna keep going on, so this won't be 658 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: the last we hear from y'all on Zone seven. But 659 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: Mike and Travis, I just appreciate y'all coming and telling 660 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: us about your family and what we're doing to try to, 661 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: you know, connect some dots with John Dillinger. 662 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 2: Why greatly appreciate you having this on. Yes, they have 663 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 2: a great honor. 664 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait to get back up there. Like 665 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: I said, I. 666 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 2: Can show you, I can show you some more stuff. 667 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Well I'm there today, so get bread. But I 668 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: just appreciate y'all being own Zone seven and being a 669 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: part of mine, both of you. 670 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 2: It's been great. Yes, y'all. 671 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: Don't going to end Zone seven the way that I 672 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: always do with a quote three rules I learned from 673 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: Walter Dietrich. One, never work with people who are desperate. Two, 674 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: never work with people who aren't the best. Three never 675 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: work when you're not ready, John Dillinger. I'm Cheryl McCollum, 676 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven.