Speaker 1: Hey, there, don't go just yet. We want to tell
Speaker 1: you about a new series from our colleagues here at Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: It's called Levetttown.
Speaker 2: It's about a technology that's moving faster than the law.
Speaker 2: About dozens of young women in a New York suburb
Speaker 2: who discover manipulated photos of themselves on a porn website.
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Speaker 1: are about to hear features adult themes.
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Speaker 4: of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
Speaker 2: Someone was posting photos of many of the girls that
Speaker 2: we had gone to school with.
Speaker 5: There was one picture of me in a bathing suit,
Speaker 5: and I didn't have a bathing suit on anymore. It
Speaker 5: was just me naked, well not me, but me with
Speaker 5: someone else's body parts that looked exactly like my own.
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Speaker 3: Well.
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Speaker 4: In this story, the victims flip the script, band together
Speaker 4: and fight back alongside some unexpected global allies. I'm Margie
Speaker 4: Murphy and I'm Olivia Carvill.
Speaker 6: This is Levittown, a new podcast series from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg,
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Speaker 6: Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 6: you get your.
Speaker 7: Podcasts, Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Jill Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 2: Tracy, as you know, I am a sucker for any
Speaker 2: conversation that involves reminiscing about the dot com bubble or
Speaker 2: the telecom bubble, really anything in the late nineties when
Speaker 2: that came of age as a young man.
Speaker 1: Well, that makes sense. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: tend to do that. I like just bubbles in general.
Speaker 1: I do not put a time period on my bubble
Speaker 1: interest any bubbles all the time.
Speaker 3: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: One thing that I think is really interesting about that
Speaker 2: time period is obviously you know it was a bubble,
Speaker 2: but I think right now, obviously people are really curious
Speaker 2: about the AI build out, and that really was the
Speaker 2: last time the late nineties when there was a specific
Speaker 2: costly capax tech infrastructure part of the story because at
Speaker 2: that time it was the telecom bubble, everyone laying all
Speaker 2: the broadband to power the high speed internet that we
Speaker 2: have today. It's not a perfect analog, but it's something
Speaker 2: that I've wanted to talk about and probably want to
Speaker 2: talk more about on the show just because of Yeah,
Speaker 2: some of the parallels to what we're seeing right now.
Speaker 1: Right it is the analogy that everyone uses, primarily because
Speaker 1: of that big, expensive capital buildout that you just mentioned.
Speaker 1: I will also say, the telecoms bubble, it's kind of
Speaker 1: mixed up with the Internet bubble, right or people tend
Speaker 1: to mix your Yeah, and actually it was different anyway,
Speaker 1: So we should talk about that.
Speaker 3: Too, totally.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm really excited. Tracy and I were recently down
Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. Where we recorded a live show
Speaker 2: and you've already heard some of them if you've been
Speaker 2: listening to the podcast, but this was a really fun
Speaker 2: little chat that we had. We spoke with Blair Levin.
Speaker 2: He's currently a policy advisor at New Street Research, but
Speaker 2: he was actually the chief of staff at the FCC
Speaker 2: in the late nineties and to who's involved in some
Speaker 2: of the deregulation that gave rise to all of the
Speaker 2: telecom bubble build out, all of the telecom build out.
Speaker 2: Then he went to work on Wall Street, so he
Speaker 2: really had like a front row seat the story that
Speaker 2: we're talking about. And so take a listen to our
Speaker 2: chat with Blair. People do forget that, like they talk
Speaker 2: about the Internet bubble, but it really was like it
Speaker 2: started or at least a huge party with the telecom
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: A dual bubble. That is to say, there was a
Speaker 3: bubble relating to Internet applications, but there was also a
Speaker 3: bubble related to telecommunications infrastructure.
Speaker 2: So other people could debate whether there is an AI
Speaker 2: bubble happening right now, but there is certainly an AI
Speaker 2: boom in terms of infrastructure spending. We talk all the
Speaker 2: time about data center buildout, et cetera. Arguably, I mean
Speaker 2: it's been going on for a while. Arguably, the sort
Speaker 2: of the catalyst, the moment that it captivated captivated everyone
Speaker 2: was the release of chat GBT in late twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: What was the moment or what was the catalyst in
Speaker 2: the late nineties that suddenly got people so excited about
Speaker 2: building out te broadband infrastructure.
Speaker 3: It was a release of Netscape, an operating system that
Speaker 3: caused people to understand what the Internet could actually be,
Speaker 3: and of course had existed previously, but with Netscape, Silicon
Speaker 3: Valley got very excited, Wall Street got very excited, and
Speaker 3: a few political leaders like Al Gore, who was then
Speaker 3: Vice President, got very excited because he had always wanted
Speaker 3: the information Highway to connect the child in Carthage, Tennessee
Speaker 3: to the Library of Congress. Right now there was really
Speaker 3: a vehicle that could do it.
Speaker 1: Joe knows a lot more about this topic than I do.
Speaker 1: But one thing I do know is when people start
Speaker 1: age Joe, when people talk about the telecomps bubble, I mean,
Speaker 1: the thing that comes up is the Telecommunications Act of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. It goes almost like hand in hand,
Speaker 1: walk us through the connection there. Why does the Act
Speaker 1: get the blame for a lot of this enthusiasm or
Speaker 1: the credit or the credit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, so I think people have to understand back
Speaker 3: in nineteen thirteen us to do a little history's doing
Speaker 3: history back in nineteen thirteen, the government essentially allowed AT
Speaker 3: and T to continue its monopoly. If Andrew had been there,
Speaker 3: maybe he would have opposed it, but he wasn't there,
Speaker 3: and that continued until it was broken up. And then
Speaker 3: once it was broken we had the long distance guys
Speaker 3: and you had the local guys. And the local guys
Speaker 3: wanted to get in the long distance business, and the
Speaker 3: long distance guys wanted to get in a local business,
Speaker 3: and the cable industry wanted to get into both of
Speaker 3: their businesses. And so during the eighties and early nineties
Speaker 3: there were a lot of efforts to say, instead of
Speaker 3: having one judge in charge of the whole thing, let's
Speaker 3: do this differently. And the key idea and one embraced
Speaker 3: really on a bipartisan basis, but really seen clearly by
Speaker 3: Gored by the chair Red Hunt, was right, now, we
Speaker 3: have these analog networks that are protected and they just
Speaker 3: offer a single service. You have analog video coming over cable,
Speaker 3: you have analog voice going over the copper net. Wireless
Speaker 3: was kind of a protected thing. Long story, but there
Speaker 3: were only two wireless providers, so less than ten million
Speaker 3: people used wireless services, and the idea of the ninety
Speaker 3: six Act in a way was let's blow this all
Speaker 3: up by making everything go digital. That was the key
Speaker 3: because once they're digital, they all compete with each other.
Speaker 3: We didn't express it quite that way, but that was
Speaker 3: the real idea behind it, and I would argue, you know,
Speaker 3: you can say it was a success or it was
Speaker 3: a failure. But for those of us, I'm showing my age.
Speaker 3: I was a ten year old kid in nineteen sixty
Speaker 3: four stood in line for two hours in New York
Speaker 3: at the World's Fair to watch, you know, a video
Speaker 3: conference that was like three bucks a minute. Well we
Speaker 3: all do you know? I do this with my grandkids
Speaker 3: for free now. So I view it as a success.
Speaker 3: You know that basically by going digital, we have faster, cheaper,
Speaker 3: better communications through competition than we've ever had.
Speaker 2: What specifically did that telecom deregulation a lit wow such
Speaker 2: that we got this incredible boom in laying fiber, laying
Speaker 2: copp or whatever it was.
Speaker 3: It gave the FCC a lot of authority, though that
Speaker 3: authority was challenged and we did lose a case at
Speaker 3: the Court of Appeals where the States challenged it because
Speaker 3: they wanted to have the power, But then the Supreme
Speaker 3: Court gave the power back to the FCC, But it
Speaker 3: gave the FCC a lot of authority to do things
Speaker 3: which are not commonly recognized but turn out to be
Speaker 3: very important. For example, one of the most important things
Speaker 3: we did was wireless number of portability. People didn't think
Speaker 3: about it at the time, but the question was who
Speaker 3: owns your phone number? Do you own the phone number
Speaker 3: or does the company on the phone number. If Verizon
Speaker 3: owned your phone number, you would never leave them, and therefore,
Speaker 3: no matter how many competitors do you have, there really
Speaker 3: wouldn't be competition. Another very big one goes to a
Speaker 3: very obscure thing, which are called access charges. So you're
Speaker 3: on one network and you call a different network, what
Speaker 3: does network two charge Network one complete that call. The
Speaker 3: most important thing for wireless was when we said to
Speaker 3: the wireline guys, who had you know, we're connecting completing
Speaker 3: ninety five percent of the calls. You have to charge
Speaker 3: your real cost, not you know, not ten cents a minute,
Speaker 3: but your real cost is zero to connect. And then
Speaker 3: suddenly big plans started to come in and wireless really
Speaker 3: took off, here's another one. In ninety five, before the
Speaker 3: Act was passed, the Bell companies were trying to say
Speaker 3: to Congress, we really need to charge access charges to
Speaker 3: this new dial up internet thing. And we said to
Speaker 3: Steve Case, we had a meeting with him. We said,
Speaker 3: you know, here's what's going on on Capitol Hill. They
Speaker 3: want you to charge you like five cents a minute.
Speaker 3: Imagine what that would have done to AOL. Though I'm
Speaker 3: not sure people in the audience can remember able remember
Speaker 3: they've read about it. Yeah, it was kind of like
Speaker 3: back in Genesis. But in any event, Steve Case got
Speaker 3: the message. If I recall correctly, within forty eight hours,
Speaker 3: there were four hundred thousand emails hitting the hill, not
Speaker 3: the charge access charges, and we were able to continue
Speaker 3: that thing. So there were obscure things. We weren't breaking
Speaker 3: up monopolies in the way that the government is currently
Speaker 3: thinking about doing with Google, but rather by saying we're
Speaker 3: going to create competitive position, competitive situations by looking at
Speaker 3: what is essential and then making sure that those are
Speaker 3: not barriers in the competition.
Speaker 1: Okay, so people think they have an entry point into
Speaker 1: that market, there's deregulation, there's potentially more competition for new players.
Speaker 1: Why did investors want to fund what seems like a
Speaker 1: very ex expensive undertaking so badly? And here I have
Speaker 1: to say the one thing I do know about the
Speaker 1: telecoms bubble. I used to be a capital markets correspondent,
Speaker 1: talk to a lot of old school bond investor guys.
Speaker 1: It was funded with a lot of debt. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: if you ask some of those old school guys about
Speaker 1: like the big moments in their career, it's okay, the
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight financial crisis, but easily like the
Speaker 1: two thousand and one telecoms crash, which was huge for
Speaker 1: the bond market. Why were people so eager to pour
Speaker 1: money into this?
Speaker 3: So first of all, you have to understand that at
Speaker 3: the beginning of any new, really big thing, there was
Speaker 3: in the early nineteen hundreds a lot of money going
Speaker 3: into car companies, and in the seventies there was a
Speaker 3: lot of money going into computer companies because people see
Speaker 3: what the opportunity is. So in the case of telecom
Speaker 3: what happened was we were deregulating and in increasing this
Speaker 3: digital competition at the same time that the market understood
Speaker 3: that the future is not these copper networks that the
Speaker 3: old AT and T local exchange carriers had but big
Speaker 3: fiber digital networks, And at that point in time, MCI
Speaker 3: and other people were saying digital traffic is grow, is
Speaker 3: doubling every quarter. Turned out it was every year, which.
Speaker 2: Is a hard difference.
Speaker 3: But if you're an investor and you believe one thing
Speaker 3: to be true and it turns out the other thing
Speaker 3: is true, you can make a really big mistake. And
Speaker 3: they made some mistakes. But I think you know, there's
Speaker 3: a difference between what happened with the big networks and
Speaker 3: what happened to pets dot com. Right, pets dot Com
Speaker 3: went under. Investors loft money and that's what was the
Speaker 3: end of it. But those networks which were built with
Speaker 3: that debt and then had to be refinanced. And I
Speaker 3: remember there was a famous I think it was a
Speaker 3: Forbes cover about a company called Quest which was building
Speaker 3: about these yeah w right and they ended up buying
Speaker 3: an old ilec, an old phone company, and everybody thought
Speaker 3: it was genius, and that the cover story was making
Speaker 3: money at the speed of light, and everybody kind of
Speaker 3: was buying off on this. Well, those networks still exist,
Speaker 3: and those are the networks which actually made Google and
Speaker 3: Facebook and others lots of money when they bought them
Speaker 3: on the cheap years later.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you have this environment of deregulation in the
Speaker 2: nineties during the Clinton administration, you have this sort of
Speaker 2: realization that the Internet is going to be a big deal.
Speaker 2: You have these inflated claims. In retrospect, turns out it's
Speaker 2: still incredibly fast, but doubling every year is not quite
Speaker 2: the same as doubling every quarter. What was the first
Speaker 2: cool breeze that came in? When was the first moment
Speaker 2: from a telecom perspective where it's like, Okay, maybe we're
Speaker 2: not quite so exciting because what people are wondering about
Speaker 2: with AI is there going to be something? So far
Speaker 2: we haven't seen any of the major plays forms, the
Speaker 2: major hyperscalers. They were like massively pulling back on KPAX
Speaker 2: or whatever. But people are looking out for that moment.
Speaker 2: What was the first sort of like what's going on here?
Speaker 3: So in a way you're thinking about there was a
Speaker 3: kind of a false moment with AI, with deep Sea
Speaker 3: where there was that moment where maybe a stock went
Speaker 3: down hugely one day, but then people started to think, yeah, well,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, we're still going to need the chips, and.
Speaker 2: Why large everyone is still despite the market sell off.
Speaker 3: No one is actually like changing either investment commitments. Yeah,
Speaker 3: though there were lots of smaller companies that are not
Speaker 3: public because going public is different than it was in
Speaker 3: two thousand, so we don't really know what's going on
Speaker 3: with them. But I would say somewhere, actually, where I
Speaker 3: would place it was the day after Time Warner made
Speaker 3: probably the worst deal of all time and bought AOL.
Speaker 3: That's when people like me started to go, wait a minute,
Speaker 3: someone who's really smoking something here, and that really doesn't
Speaker 3: make sense because you know, from our perspective, AOL was
Speaker 3: kind of an obsolete company because broadband was coming on,
Speaker 3: and in a broadband world, the logic of AOL was
Speaker 3: not right true. And then then the application started to fold,
Speaker 3: and then about a year later, a lot of the
Speaker 3: data network started to fold.
Speaker 1: So one of the things I remember from I think
Speaker 1: it was Jason Callicanus when we interviewed you, was he
Speaker 1: pointed out something interesting about a lot of the latest startups,
Speaker 1: which is the it's not that they couldn't necessarily make
Speaker 1: money in the good years. It was that investors weren't
Speaker 1: asking them to. Investors wanted them to grow as quickly
Speaker 1: as possible, grow market share, the sort of network effect
Speaker 1: that we were talking about earlier. And then suddenly, you know,
Speaker 1: investors start saying, actually, you need to monetize this, and
Speaker 1: you need to kind of show us where the money is.
Speaker 1: And so that change in behavior means that now there's
Speaker 1: pressure to be cash flow positive. Was there a sort
Speaker 1: of similar moment or similar change in investor behavior aware
Speaker 1: it didn't become about growth and the build out, but
Speaker 1: it became about actual reality and monetization.
Speaker 3: Well, again, I would distinguish between the networks which can
Speaker 3: run for a while, but they can't run forever, and
Speaker 3: the applications. I do remember Eric Schmidt Reid and I
Speaker 3: had ben with them shortly after he became CEO of Google,
Speaker 3: and he said, ubiquity first, monetization later. That works in
Speaker 3: an advertising model, It does not work in a lot
Speaker 3: of other models. And one of the challenges for network
Speaker 3: folks is how do you build this network which is
Speaker 3: supposed to last for thirty years or fifty years or whatever,
Speaker 3: and not run out of money before the revenue start
Speaker 3: coming in. And we saw this with various wireless companies,
Speaker 3: and we saw it with fixed terrestrial wired companies. And
Speaker 3: it's interesting because if you look at what the world
Speaker 3: looked like in two thousand, a lot of the companies
Speaker 3: on the network side are the same. It's the cable companies,
Speaker 3: it's the wireless companies, and it's the traditional les, but
Speaker 3: they've changed their business model. But when you look at
Speaker 3: the device companies and the applications companies relative to two thousand,
Speaker 3: totally different set of companies.
Speaker 2: What were the Selex the cles?
Speaker 3: What were so the sea lex were the competitive local
Speaker 3: exchange carriers And the idea was, as one Wall Street
Speaker 3: analyst said, they are the construction companies for the long
Speaker 3: distance company. Because the idea was the long distance companies?
Speaker 3: Would Congress really envisioned?
Speaker 2: I forgot about long distance?
Speaker 3: Yeah, here it go. Yeah, as most people as well,
Speaker 3: you should. But when I was in college again back
Speaker 3: in the days of Genesis, you know, we stood in
Speaker 3: line to call our parents because it was really expensive,
Speaker 3: and we would call and talk for thirty seconds, just yes,
Speaker 3: I'm okay, talk to you later by you know. And
Speaker 3: now has anyone paid a long distance? Is there anyone
Speaker 3: here paying a long distance? Bell?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: Of course not. It was all a matter of regulatory
Speaker 3: arbitrage back in those days. But the idea I think
Speaker 3: of the act was that there would be three competitors.
Speaker 3: You would have the cable guys, the incumbents, and the
Speaker 3: long distance guys. Everybody knew that the incumbent local exchange
Speaker 3: carriers could easily go into long distance, So the challenge was,
Speaker 3: how do we create a path for the long distance
Speaker 3: guys to essentially build out new networks that'll be superior
Speaker 3: networks and then they'll come be with the old guys
Speaker 3: who have the advantages of incumbency, and the cable guys
Speaker 3: are going to get into this business. Wireless was not
Speaker 3: really seen as a competitor now it is, and there
Speaker 3: are again a lot of regulatory reasons. Spectrum auctions played
Speaker 3: a big role in that kind of stuff, and we
Speaker 3: had a plan. Now that plan was reversed by the
Speaker 3: Republican chairman of the FCC, Michael Powell, very good guy,
Speaker 3: and he basically had the view that that's really it's
Speaker 3: not going to work. The other problem, which is kind
Speaker 3: of something you can't legislate around. Bob Allen, who is
Speaker 3: the CEO of AT and T, was shall we say
Speaker 3: my age as to the young whipper snappers of SBC
Speaker 3: at Whitaker or Ivan Seidenberg of what was then called
Speaker 3: nine X. And in the middle of just after the
Speaker 3: kind of the law passed, we're in the middle of saying,
Speaker 3: here's how we're going to make it so that the
Speaker 3: sea Lects can build these networks for eighteen t to
Speaker 3: eventually buy and blah blah blah. Alan tries to merge
Speaker 3: with SBC because he wanted to retire. And people have
Speaker 3: forgotten this little episode, but it showed up on the newspaper,
Speaker 3: and a couple days later, my boss, Breetheind gave a
Speaker 3: speech at Brookings saying such a deal would be unthinkable. Actually, Alan,
Speaker 3: we were trying to figure out what to do. Alan
Speaker 3: gave a speech saying such a deal would not be unthinkable,
Speaker 3: which gave us the open You say, oh really and
Speaker 3: read who was a former anti trust lawyer just went
Speaker 3: through this, you know, very intense anti trust analysis why
Speaker 3: we cannot let them merge. Eventually they did merge and
Speaker 3: that was the end kind of of the sea Lect dream.
Speaker 1: This is great and Joe loves reminiscing and war stories.
Speaker 1: As he said, so I got to ask, what was
Speaker 1: the craziest thing in retrospect that you saw from this era?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, you know what was crazy about it? But
Speaker 3: totally wonderful was and this will sound odd, Congress gave
Speaker 3: us ridiculous deadlines. Ridiculous deadlines, and a Republican guys said,
Speaker 3: you know, Blair, we gave you deadlines. You're never going
Speaker 3: to meet them, and then you're going to be so screwed.
Speaker 3: I said, thank you. That great, But Reid understood that deadlines,
Speaker 3: particlally if you're like a chief of staff, are a
Speaker 3: great thing. So the day after the Act passed, we
Speaker 3: had all the lobbyists in. We had here's all the rulemakings,
Speaker 3: here's where we're going to do everything, you know, like
Speaker 3: just and went to the other commissioner offices and said,
Speaker 3: with each of these things, you're going to have five
Speaker 3: days to read the stuff, you know, like no excuses.
Speaker 3: And so we felt enormously energized and pressured. The over
Speaker 3: the heating bill at the FCC for like one month
Speaker 3: was like an extra four hundred thousand dollars. That's a
Speaker 3: good detail. We were all working so hard, but it
Speaker 3: was truly it was a wonderful spirit and we thought
Speaker 3: we were doing something important. And by the way, at
Speaker 3: the same time, we were negotiating World Trade Organization agreement
Speaker 3: to enable digital traffic to travel much more cheaply around
Speaker 3: the world. It was really exciting and fun time.
Speaker 2: All right, I have one last question, which is there
Speaker 2: are various ways to play a boom. Right, So some
Speaker 2: people were buying shares and corning the glass company because
Speaker 2: I have to lay a lot of glass based fiber.
Speaker 2: Some people were buying AOL, Some people were buying pets
Speaker 2: dot com. You know, various different like sort of ways
Speaker 2: into it. Is it the ISP, is it the website,
Speaker 2: is it the glass, et cetera. Obviously with AI it's
Speaker 2: this sort of same thing. Is it going to be
Speaker 2: the model makers. Is it going to be the companies
Speaker 2: to make the chips? Is it going to be the
Speaker 2: companies to make the cooling systems for the data centers?
Speaker 2: Various different ways into any sort of boom from the
Speaker 2: telecom era. What is the takeaway about who makes the
Speaker 2: money in the end, Because who makes the money in
Speaker 2: the end the lawyer of that story, yeah, Bessess, the lawyers, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the heat and the heating.
Speaker 1: Company and the heating companies.
Speaker 3: You know, I will give you my answer, but I
Speaker 3: have to tell you, if I actually knew the real answer,
Speaker 3: you'd have to pay me a lot more money.
Speaker 2: I'm not even asking for the AI. I'm just like,
Speaker 2: you know, like.
Speaker 3: Because I'm just I'm the Wall Street analysis. But I'm
Speaker 3: just telling people what the policies are going to be.
Speaker 2: I'm not telling you people paid fifty dollars to get Oh.
Speaker 3: That's right, fifty five dollars. You deserve a better answer. No. Look,
Speaker 3: what I love about Wall Street is you have these
Speaker 3: debates every day, and you know, one of the big
Speaker 3: debates in my space is what is Charlie Ergan going
Speaker 3: to do? Or should the telcos the wireless guys buy
Speaker 3: more fiber? All those kinds of debates. What I would
Speaker 3: say about that is number one, infrastructure always has value.
Speaker 3: But it's also true that, as every real estate developer knows,
Speaker 3: it's often the third owner who actually makes right right. So,
Speaker 3: but the data centers are going to have value forever.
Speaker 3: There will be a couple of applications that capture the
Speaker 3: market share and that the you know, twenty years from now,
Speaker 3: the FTC will be saying why didn't we stop these people,
Speaker 3: you know, back in twenty twenty five when we could have.
Speaker 3: And whether it's Open AI or it's Perplexity or it's
Speaker 3: any of the others, who knows. But if you capture
Speaker 3: that the market, you know, the return on scale is tremendous.
Speaker 3: The difference now is you do have these really well
Speaker 3: established companies Amazon, Microsoft, Alphabet, Meta, Who are who are
Speaker 3: in the space?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: One answer to would be the cloud guys. I think
Speaker 3: Cloud is just going to be incredibly important in all
Speaker 3: of this and they win no matter what.
Speaker 2: Blair Levin a real treat. So great to chat with you.
Speaker 2: I love reminiscing. Thanks for all coming down last live.
Speaker 1: That was our episode looking back at the Telecoms Bubble
Speaker 1: with Blair Levin. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me
Speaker 1: at Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.
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