WEBVTT - Daryl Hall 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:13.440 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Podcast. My 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.280 guest today is the one and only Daryl Hall. Darryll, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.439 you've been out this summer with Todd Rundgren on the road. 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.720 How did that come together? Well, I, you know, I 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.840 have what I call a body of work album that 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.080 I put out in one February March, I Forget and uh, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.080 and I wanted to tour behind it and play songs 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.760 that uh that are you know that are my solo 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:44.760 part of my solo work, and and and I wanted 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.040 somebody to sort of make the Dallas House the life 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.200 of Dallas has experience, uh come to the stage. And 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.360 my first thought was my old friend Todd Rundgren. And 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.400 because it really is a perfect combination. Um, you know, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.760 his his musical history and mine are a sort of 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.160 very unique and very unique and similar, and and uh 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.760 it's a great It wound up being a really great show. Uh. 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.800 He uses my band, and then we do stuff together 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.600 and stuff separately, and it's all really it's all really 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:20.679 working out very well. Now. You're both from the Philly 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:26.119 area in the late sixties. Uh, Todd was from Upper Darby. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.800 He had the band Naz were you aware of all that? 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.640 Did you like that? Did you know Todd back then? 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.360 I didn't know Todd back in the in the late sixties. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.160 He worked, uh, he was doing that stuff, right, he 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.440 was in NAZ and what he struck stopped at all 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.039 those bands, which I was aware of, but I was 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.120 I was definitely well ensconced in the world of Philly soul, 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:50.800 you know, with Gamble and Huff and Tommy Bell and 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.440 people like that, and and UH and and all the 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.520 all the radio stations that were involved in that UH, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.600 in that UH genre. And so we didn't really know 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.120 each other, and we met in UH. We really met 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.760 in New York in the early seventies, appropriately at at 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:17.640 a movie showing of Fantase. And how did Todd end 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:22.240 up uh doing the producing the third Holland Oldts album, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.400 war Babies. Well, it started with that. You know. I 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.799 thought I had just moved to New York and I 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.400 I was experiencing New York. You know, I was really 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.440 full of beans. It was like Philadelphia was one experience 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.640 I had left that and I said, I want to 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.240 do something completely different and really opened my mind up 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:44.880 and and opened my mind to the sound of New 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:46.720 York when I said the sound, you know, the the 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.679 actual street sounds of New York. And I wanted to 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.480 make a record to write songs that reflected that. And 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.760 I was aware of Todd's he had just started working 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:03.120 with Utopia, and I was I went to see him, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.680 uh a bunch of times, really, and I was so 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.160 impressed with what he was doing. And also that was 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.600 what he was in his his role. He was he was, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.560 he was he was producing everybody from Alice Cooper to 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.840 the New York Dolls to god knows who, you know, 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.040 a million people. And Uh, I said, okay, well, why 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.359 don't this this on paper sounds good? You know, an 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.840 ex Philadelphia moved to New York. Obviously he's gonna understand, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.160 you know, creative person. And let's try and see what happens. 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.920 And what war Babies album is the result of what happened? 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.960 You know? Well, that was your third album on Atlantic, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:43.440 and it was not commercially successful. Now, you know most 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.880 people when things are not happening, they sort of break 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.720 apart from those people. How did you maintain a relationship 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:55.480 with Todd? Uh? I have always respected time and and 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.040 it was just because it wasn't a commercially accessive, accessible 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.920 or with commercially accepted album that that really wasn't what 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.440 my agenda was about with that album. Um, I was 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.400 naive enough and uh idealistic enough to just say, okay, 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.840 let's move on. I did that. That was that was 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.320 an interesting experience, and let's let me use that and 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.440 and uh incorporate that into whatever the future is. And 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.560 I never really lost track of Todd over the years, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.400 and and uh and so we we've sort of maintained 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.760 this kind of loose relationship for all those years. Now 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.719 ultimately you and your partner produced the Hall and Oates 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.160 albums together, Daryl Hall and John Oates. Uh what did 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:42.880 you learn from working with Todd? Um? I learned what 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.000 not to do? Don't know? So what shouldn't you do? 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:53.039 Try try and be accessible, don't don't be inaccessible for 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.400 its own sake. Uh, that that is a lesson I learned. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.760 Uh It Todds of stubborn, a stubborn guy, and he 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:08.400 he has a a version to uh to being easily accepted. 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.119 And I used to have arguments with him about it. Said, Todd, 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:15.920 you know this song, this could work out really well 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:17.760 and a lot of people would like it. He and 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.159 he did everything he could have like Funk with that idea. 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.280 You know. Uh, It's just it's his personality and he's 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.720 in his mellowness and age now he he has accepted 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.760 the idea that you could be accessible, which is even 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.880 a better reason for us to be working together on stage. Okay, 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:39.039 do you think if someone else had produced War Babies 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.920 or you've done it yourself, it would have been more 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.120 commercially viable. It would have been more commercially viable, but 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.320 it would have been the same album. Maybe I don't 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.080 even know if it would have been the same songs. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.720 Uh it was. I tend to write for projects, and 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.600 uh that was written with the idea that I was 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.719 going to work with Todd in New York and New 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.280 York environment, and and uh I may have written a 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.960 completely different set of songs on my own with somebody 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.640 else or whatever. You know. Tell me about writing for projects, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.839 what do you mean there? Well, I I don't write. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.760 I mean I do write randomly, but I tend to 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.320 not not focus my writing until I know that I'm 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.479 going to either work with somebody or there's some project 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.400 that's coming up. Um, and then I write with that 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:34.080 in mind. It's sort of like energizes me and I 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.279 start writing like crazy and you know, coming up with 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.280 ideas and do this all of a piece, and uh 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.640 that that tends to come out. I like to keep 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:49.800 a momentum going. I recently, i've uh deviated from that. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.159 And I didn't like that because I was doing a 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.039 lot of false starts because I'm so busy with other things, 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.440 and I would get all excited about something to do it, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.440 and then it would sort of like sit on the shelf, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.000 and uh, I don't like doing that. I like working 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.000 for the project, putting out the project, keeping the enthusiasm 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.640 going for the project, and taking it through to its completion. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.640 So what would be the time window prior to going 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.880 into the studio we call an album a project? When 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.800 would you get excited and then start to compose when 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:24.520 I knew I was gonna start doing it, you know, 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.720 when when it when it started getting scheduled and I 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.480 knew who I was gonna work with. Uh, And and 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:34.720 even in the early stages of the recordings, I would uh, 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.720 my my mind would be on fire, you know. And 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.600 that's and I write things right, you know, very spontaneously 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:46.120 and quickly. Uh Uh. That's usually the way as worked 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.080 for me. Okay, And you say you change the content 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.560 depending on who you're working with, Yeah, to some degree, 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.200 I changed the mood. I might change. I won't change 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:05.280 the emotional uh source of of the song that that 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.200 comes from me and my experiences. But as far as 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.600 production goes and even my the melodies I choose, with 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.240 the chords I choose, it really has to do a 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.600 lot with with with with with with the moment, with 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.800 with what what I'm trying to um with the people 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.520 that I'm working with. Really, Okay, let's go back to 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.400 the beginning. You grow up in the Philly area, in 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.680 town and the suburbs where I grew up in Pottstown, 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.199 which is a Chest County and it was it was 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.520 an industrial town with farms all around it. And I 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.640 sort of had my feet on both sides. Uh uh. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.160 I lived in amidst farm land, a bicycle right away 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:53.199 from the deepest neighborhoods that you want to deal with. 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.600 And uh so I've always been a sort of a 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.439 rural urban person, you know, a foot in both sides. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.560 And what did your parents do for a living? My 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.280 mother wore it was a singer and and she was 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.080 in a band. And she worked also at a radio station, 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:13.560 the Pottstown Radio Station. And uh, and my father was 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:19.040 around a pattern making department because Potstown was at that 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.760 time was a very industrial town. And how many kids 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.480 in the family. I have a sister that's it five 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.480 years younger than me. And what's your relationship with her? 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:36.960 Extremely close? Anything you see visually? Uh, ever is my 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.840 collaboration with her? You know, she's a graphic a graphic designer, artist, ah, 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.440 many many things, and she she sort of controls my 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.720 visual world. Okay, I'm a little younger than you, and 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:54.520 I remember listening to the early sixties radio and knowing 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.400 some of those tracks, listening to sports and then the 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.080 Beatles hit and it really took off. What was your 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:07.280 experience listening to radio and getting into music. Well, in 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:12.800 Philadelphia it's a really unique environment, or it was a 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.840 really unique environment, continues to be really to some degree. Uh. 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.240 And in the when I was a teenager, pop radio 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:29.480 was not popular. Uh in Philadelphia people the hip Wi 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.719 Zi anyway, it wasn't popular with those people. And and 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.920 if you were cool, you listened to you either listened 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.720 to soul of music which was everywhere, and that was 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.560 that was baby food, or even the precursor of that, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.680 which was was street corner music, which was the acapella 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:51.080 music and doo wop and early early vocal rock and roll. Uh. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.880 And there was a guy named Jerry Blavitt who was 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.959 a very very influential person to people who cared about music. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.600 And I was just a total devu tea of that, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.920 and I was just I was sort of a street 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:08.079 corner singer and uh um. And that was my beginnings 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.160 doing that. And then that's closely aligned with the whole 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:15.199 soul thing, you know, I mean vocal groups, uh, whether 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.600 they be the Temptations or or the Dandeliers. You know, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.760 it's it's it's it's just a progression of the same 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.120 kind of music. But we rejected. The Beatles were not 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:30.920 even thought about in Philadelphia until later later period, let's say, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:35.480 around Revolver Stargard Pepper, people started saying, oh, the Beatles 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.560 have something interesting to offer Philadelphians. Before that, they just 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.240 looked at him like a bar band. Okay, you say 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.280 you were street corner singer, You're living in a rural area. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.080 What did that literally look like? Being a Street corner singer. Well, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.360 I my parents lived in a rural area, but my 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.640 all her, all their friends lived in black neighborhood in Philadelphia. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.199 I mean sorry in pots Uh so I would I've 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.560 sort of lived. Sometimes I would sleep at home, but 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.200 I would, especially in the summertime, I would just be 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.120 over there on on on Walnut Street in Pottstown. And 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.640 uh and it was it was. It was music on 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.480 the streets. That's the best way I could put it. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.199 It was it was an integrated neighborhood. And uh and 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.600 it was the kind of music I liked, everything from 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.760 gospel music and church music from the corner churches to 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:33.160 uh uh two people playing record players in their houses 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.840 on the front porches and stuff like that. Okay, you 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.880 come from a soul influence. What about doo wop or 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.720 Dion and the Belmonts where it was part of your consciousness? 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.959 Was that something different? Well? Do Deanna go abouts were 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.280 way too pop? I mean that that that's uh that 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:56.080 kind of thing. Yes, I do want music. Vocal group man, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.840 you know, people just standing around um and and that 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.040 kind of stuff. Okay, so you're growing up. What kind 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.240 of kid? Are you? A good student? Bad student? Have 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.920 a lot of friends out you know, an outsider. I 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:15.480 was an outsider. I was a restless, a restless person. Uh, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.760 I was you know, I'm a I know you know this, Bob. 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.679 I'm an avid reader, like a book worm and in 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:23.360 the story and and all that kind of thing. And 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.320 that put me in odds as a child. You know, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.600 I was a good student. Yeah, very good student until 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:32.760 I so I got to be a teenager and then 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.359 I became a very restless and indifferent student. And uh, 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.480 I was more interested in, uh hanging out than I 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:43.840 was uh doing my homework. So at what point did 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:49.400 you learn to play musical instrument? I started playing piano 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:54.199 at five, and uh, and I played. I took you know, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.760 former piano lessons until I was about twelve or thirteen. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.400 And uh then my mother or for some bizarre reason, 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.400 decided that she wanted me to play the trombone and 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.800 I and I picked up the trombone. And I pretty 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.200 much hated the trombone, you know, I mean, what cornball instrument. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.320 But I wanted to play the saxophone. But she said 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.080 something about your mouth shape isn't right for you know, 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.280 why didn't I get a saxophone? I don't know, but 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.720 uh uh, So I stopped the piano lessons and then 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.080 started playing on my own and writing songs and and 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:32.480 becoming you know, learning sort of playing self taught, so 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.760 you know, self teaching. And then when I when I 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.320 was I went to tump of University music school so 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.600 that I resumed my more formal piano studies. And I 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.640 was actually a piano opera major. And I went there 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.960 for five years. And but you didn't graduate, right? I 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.480 quit a few weeks before in graduation. What was the 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:59.280 reason there? I had a choice between having to complete 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.320 this rigorous UH student teaching program or playing a bar band. 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.400 And I was in a I thought it was a 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.880 good bar band, and and my supervisor says, you can't 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.520 do both. You have to choose your life. Either you're 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.120 going to do this music education thing or you or 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.000 you're going to be a rock and roll singer. And 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:22.920 I said, okay, you just made my mind by now. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.280 Frequently when someone has as much success as you do, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.920 their old college reaches out and gives him an honorary 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:35.520 degree or something. Has temple reached out. Yeah I didn't. 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.880 I didn't bother with it. I've been I've been offered 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.240 honorary honorary degrees by Berkeley and Temple, and I just 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.360 I'm not interested. I don't care. Okay. So when you're 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.880 going to Temple, you're then living in Philly. Oh yeah. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.800 I moved to Philadelphia when I was a seventeen and 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.720 immediately jumped into the heart of the whole thing. And uh, 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.600 that was the that was the great thing about being 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.000 going to Tumpy University where in North Philadelphia, at five 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.160 blocks from the Uptown Theater and uh and you know, 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.640 and in the middle of the one of the deepest 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:16.520 black neighborhoods in the city. And uh I lived in 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.720 inhabited that area for five years. And and beyond that, 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.120 of course, uh and that that really quote of sort 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:30.800 of formed me. You know, I was I was. I 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.120 mentioned what I was into in Pottstown, but then when 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.720 I got to Affiliate really just kind of locked in 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.360 and I immediately met, uh with within a few months, 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.840 I met Gamble and huff And and Tommy Bell and 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.080 people like that, and uh so it all it all 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:50.680 started formalizing and and you know, coalescing. Okay, So when 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.360 you went to Temple on this music program, what did 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.200 do you think do you think, well, you know, I 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.080 got to do something now, or I want to do 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.120 something you know more class to call, probably want to 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.680 mark time before I become a rock and roller soul star. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.600 What was in your mind? Well, No, I was learning 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.440 things in school. I learned how to be a ranger 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.399 and and uh you know, I did a lot of 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:20.560 sophicio and you know, I home home my craft, uh formally, 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.960 but at the same time, I was sitting in the corner, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.639 and I was hanging out and making records with the 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.520 Temp Tones and and uh and and and hanging out 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.879 with Tommy Bell and people like that. So it was 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.040 that to me, that was my real education. Was was 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.919 was was being introduced and and working with with with 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.480 the early Philadelphia sound. Well, how did you meet tom 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.960 Bell and Gamble and Huff. I had a band, We 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.800 formed a temple called the Temp Talents. It was a 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.679 vocal group and uh we they used to have just 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.479 like the Apollo in New York. They used to have 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.520 talent shows when I believe it was Wednesday nights and 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.040 uh we uh did did a talent show at the 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.520 at the Uptown Theater and we won the talent show 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.439 and the prize was you got to make a record 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.680 with Kenny and Leon and and uh so they had 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.040 this you know, small label, Arctic Records. We went into 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:23.800 the sport track studio Virtue Sound Studios and uh uh 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.760 Frankie Virtue Studio and uh uh and and we made 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.400 uh we made a record. And uh, this guy Jimmy Bishop, 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.440 who was a DJ and one of the top DJs 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.000 in phil in the in w D as in Philadelphia, 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:44.400 uh picked us up and started sort of semi managing us. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.720 And uh and you know, we had a chart record 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.159 in w D A S charts, R and B charts 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.600 and uh. Through that, I can't remember how I met Tommy. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.240 I actually can't remember, but immediately got along with him 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:02.560 and I used to go and hang out and he 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.080 used to have an office at Cameo Parkway. This was 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.399 before Philadelphia National and H and I used to go 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.119 and sit there and listen to him play the piano 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.320 and come up with ideas. And uh so I certainly 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.080 learned a lot from Tommy Bell. What year are we in? 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:30.080 Uh sixty? Okay? The fact that you were white? Did 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.280 they see color? Were you the only white guy? Was 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.119 it accepted? Was it integrated in those days. That was 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.480 it was, it was integrated. I never I never once 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.840 had a problem with any of that stuff back in 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.159 the day, and I never have since then. So you 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.480 have a dream, you have a record, it's on the chart. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.359 What did that feel like? I mean, it's played on 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.080 the radio. It was wild. I remember I was walking 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:01.600 on on Broad Street. Uh. And these kids, they're really 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:03.919 cool kids, like you know, it's cool Italian kids. They 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.960 look like it could have been on American dand Stand 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.880 or something. And then and they're walking down the street 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.560 and they're singing girl and I Love You and they're 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.720 like harmonizing. And I ran up to him and I said, hey, man, 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.760 that's my song, and that's my song and they went, 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:18.800 oh yeah, I get the funk out of here. You know, 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.480 So you have that one success, then what about a 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.720 follow up? Oh? I don't know. I wasn't thinking about 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.880 follow ups. I My brain wasn't. It's never been there, Bob. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.840 You know, I'm not a commercially oriented person. And the 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.040 irony is that I've had such success commercially, but I 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.600 don't really care about that stuff. I don't write for 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.440 those kind of with with that in mind, Um, I 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:57.440 U I we made another record, you know, and and 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.600 it was called say These Words of Love. He didn't 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.359 do anything. And then I moved on and the Tempts 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.280 broke up. And then, uh, like I said, I moved on. Okay, 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.679 when you moved on, you know, you had the singing groups. 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.600 At what point did you form a band? And it 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:17.920 was more you know, rock and soul. I never really well, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.240 I was in a bar band for a while and 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.760 that was what I quit the Temple for. And it 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.960 was called Paling the Profits and they were that was 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.399 the closest thing to a bar band I was ever in. 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.000 And uh, I don't know. I didn't really get along 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:32.840 with Paler that well, he's a he's a good guy, 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.800 but I you know, we we bumped heads. So that 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:40.280 didn't last too long. And uh then I started just 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.280 sort of kicking around and and and using my connections. 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:50.320 I started hanging out with uh with in Stigma Sound 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.200 and doing backup work, doing on the odd keyboard playing 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.040 and things like that, odds and ends and uh and 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:01.640 and sort of hooked up with this guy named John 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.800 Madera who was his One of his claim to fame 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.639 was he wrote it at the Hop okay, and you know, 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.200 and he wrote you Don't on Me with Leslie Gore 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.919 and one to three with Letty you know, yeah, I 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:15.920 mean that's that's John Madera. You know, he wrote those 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:20.280 songs and he had a production of production and publishing company, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.840 and I sort of attached myself to that, and he 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.600 gave me a little money occasionally, and I played, you know, 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.120 I do sessions for like thirty bucks and stuff like that, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.040 and and well I lived in a place it only 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.119 cost eighty five dollars a month, so it was it 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.000 wasn't that hard to live and uh and then I 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:44.080 uh uh yeah, the end of all that is when 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.919 I met John and we decided to play some songs 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:52.520 together acoustically and uh and we started playing in coffee 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.240 houses and places like that. And that's when that Okay, 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.560 when you met John and you formed men and playing 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.720 pistically was that because it was the moment the late 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.320 sixties what was going on? Because that seems to be 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.600 a little bit of a change from your soul background. 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:12.000 It was a change. I think that uh, meeting John, 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.680 I was the reason that I got together with him 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.760 is because he was involved in a scene that I 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:24.720 didn't know anything about I knew nothing about bluegrass music 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.919 or folk music or any of that kind of stuff. 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.200 It just didn't it wasn't, you know, it was invisible 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:34.639 to me. And uh, I was sort of fascinated by 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:37.000 it because I was still a student, you know, and 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.359 I was trying to expand my mind and I was learning, 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:42.440 trying to learn about things that I didn't know that 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:47.280 and I did gravitate the bluegrass music because it's it's 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.600 it's over kind of soul. I mean, bluegrass is very 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:54.960 soul for music. And we started I started listening to that. 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.439 He started turning me onto all that stuff. And that 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:03.080 was really how we form related in our early relationship. Musically, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:09.920 was my natural what did I do, you know, my 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:13.960 my background, my soul thing, and and his what I 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.560 what they call these days Americana, you know, and and 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:23.440 mixing those two things together. Okay, you're doing this. It's 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:25.840 just one of the many things you're doing or you're saying, 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.919 wait a second, this is my road to success. Well, 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.600 at that point we were sort of doing both. I 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:37.639 was still with Gamble and Huff doing stuff. But one day, 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:40.320 I mean, I can remember this, I had made a 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:44.800 decision and Kenny. He came to He came to me, 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:46.800 He said, do you want do you want to work 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.240 with Philadelphia International? You want to be a songwriter, you 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:55.680 want to be an artist? And I I said no, 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:57.320 I said, I think I want to move to New 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.119 York with Oates and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:03.760 take what we do and go out of Philadelphia. I 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.639 just wanted. I wanted to expand outside of Philadelphia. I 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:09.240 don't know why, but I did. And so that was 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.439 a decision made and we moved to New York and 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:16.520 then all that other ship started. Okay, did you let 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.639 me stay? When you're in Philadelphia? What is your rep 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.000 is you? Are you known as that guy who's got 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:26.040 that voice or you're just one of the people. You know, 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:32.000 How were you perceived? Uh? Yeah, I was perceived that way, 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:37.880 that that guy, that guy that sings that way. Uh 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:41.960 I was. You know, it was a relatively small environment 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:47.520 and community, and uh uh yeah, I got it. I had. 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:50.480 I had a reputation for doing what I do. Now, 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:54.240 for those on the inside, they know that success is 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.879 not accidental and usually it's a matter of relationships. Working 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:02.440 in religious anybody's working in mand is not successful knows that, 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:08.080 so are you relatively a hustler? Connector to what degree? 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:13.800 Was John like that? What was going on? I am 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:17.160 a person who takes advantage of opportunities whenever I can 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.359 find them, and if they if if I feel like 0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:24.520 they make sense to me. I'm certainly more that way 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:27.880 than Oates was. Okay, so you moved to New York, 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:33.720 no manager, no band, Where do you live? What's the 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:40.159 first step? Well, I did sort of have a manager. Okay, 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.199 so we'll go back to that. I I did not 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:48.000 get along with John Madera. Ultimately we parted company not 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:52.359 so well. And he but the one thing that he 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:56.800 did for me is he had a temporary he used 0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:59.600 to lease his publishing out and at the time he 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.919 at least his publishing publishing out the Chapel Music up 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:07.640 in New York. And I went up there and with 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:10.840 him to go to the office one time I don't 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:18.080 know why, and met this kid, uh named Tommy Montola, 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:24.560 and ah, he was years old and he had an 0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:28.480 office the size of a telephone booth and uh, I 0:27:28.480 --> 0:27:30.280 don't know, I'm not even sure if that was his office. 0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:34.600 But anyway, he said, what's going on, you know, and 0:27:34.920 --> 0:27:38.760 we we became sort of started talking, became friends, and 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:46.200 he heard what I did and he said, basically said, 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:47.840 why don't you move to New York City and I'll 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:51.520 manage you? And he was years old. Well I was 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:55.840 only twenty two and h and I said, Okay, I 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:59.159 can't stand what I'm doing, so let's go for it. 0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:06.920 And he started pretending to be a manager. And uh. 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:10.320 One thing that happened that chapel, which was very useful, 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:15.240 is that this guy named Norm Wiser, who is his boss, 0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:19.720 hooked hooked me up with a trip and John too 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:23.400 too with with a trip to the West Coast and 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:29.320 we went to l A and we started auditioning to people, 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:35.360 four people, and we uh we wound up with this 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.720 guy named Errol her mc grath who had a little 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:41.480 tiny label called Clean Records, and even he used to 0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:44.000 be sort of a he had a salad of musicians 0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:46.360 and artists and all that. And we played for him 0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:49.719 and he said, would you like to sign to our label? 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:54.920 And we said yes. And then he for whatever his 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:57.880 reasons that this is a part behind the scenes that 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.959 I don't know about. Somehow that parlayed into me auditioning 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:06.600 for a Reef Martin and an Amen and Jerry Greenberg 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.640 U in New York City. And the next thing I knew, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:14.400 Earl gave up his claim to us and I was 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:18.120 on Atlantic Records. Well of course, or or all ended 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:21.280 up running Rolling Stones Records, which was through Atlantic. Who 0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:25.920 knows what the story was there? What year we in? Okay, 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:32.200 this this is about n Okay? So was it you 0:29:32.320 --> 0:29:36.200 and John that are out there? Yeah? This is this 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:40.920 is a whole notes story. Tommy makes a deal with 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:46.200 Atlantic Records. Tommy didn't have the ability to make that question. 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:52.520 He was twenty one years old. No, No, this guy 0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:57.000 Role McGrath made a deal. He roma grath said, check 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:59.720 these guys out. I sat down to a broken piano 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:02.360 and aid for a Reef Marten with with with the 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:05.480 flu and and and and am it And they said 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:09.200 you're signed, buddy. And that's how it happened. Okay, who 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:11.720 made the deal for you? Who? Need you have a lawyer? What? 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:14.120 How did that happen? Yeah? I had a lawyer and 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:17.440 I can't remember his name. I did have a lawyer. Yes, 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:21.440 a lawyer was involved. Okay. Frequently when someone is knocked 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.800 around as much as you have. If you have any success, 0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:27.320 somebody comes out and says, I have paper you know, 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:30.120 you know I had a contract those songs of mind 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:34.480 that happened to you at all. Yes, John Madera, John 0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:38.840 Madera has been living off me for years. He claims 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:43.719 made claims of of uh of owning demos that I 0:30:43.760 --> 0:30:46.240 did on my own and with John and with this, 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:49.440 with these guys, this guy named Tommy Sellers, we had 0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:53.720 this kind of studio band we called Gulliver and he 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:56.560 put them out under Hall and Oates Record early days, 0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:58.960 all on Oates and all that, and he never I 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:03.440 never saw a dime at all. And that's that story. 0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:07.880 But yes, of course that that inevitably happens. Okay, so 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:11.800 you signed with Atlantic, you're making a record. We're along 0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:13.360 the line, do you have a band or if you 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:18.360 ever have a band. Well, we started when we were 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:21.600 playing in these tiny places. It was just the two 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.680 of us, and then we we did add a drummer 0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:28.920 and and a guy who uh played upright bass, and 0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:33.160 and an electric bass. And so by the time we 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:36.840 actually had a this beginning of a record deal, we 0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:40.360 actually had a four piece band, and we we went 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.239 in the studio with the first album with part of 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:45.920 the with those guys to some degree, and also a 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:49.200 Reef studio bands, you know, various people that that he 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:52.600 liked to use for the Atlantic records. Okay, you moved 0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:58.600 from Philly to New York and with Tommy's you know, instigation. 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.560 What was it like suddenly being in New York And 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:05.960 did you ever gain a rep in New York or 0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:08.000 just Tommy got you to go to the West coast 0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:12.240 we meet her in McGrath, etcetera. No, we we didn't 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:14.800 really move to New York until we had already signed 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.840 with Atlantic and we're we're in the process of starting 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:20.600 to make the first record and and so we we 0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:23.880 were newcomers in town and uh we were in the 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:28.760 Atlantic studios and uh uh like that, I mean that 0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:32.600 was we weren't really even playing in New York. We uh, 0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:36.320 it was mostly just for recording and and then we played. 0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:39.880 We were playing in Philadelphia, we played a few other places. 0:32:39.880 --> 0:32:41.680 We weren't really playing a lot a lot at that 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:46.320 period of time. Okay, you meet John, you ultimately lived together. 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.560 You know the nature of these relationships as you kind 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.720 of grow up with people, then you grow apart you're 0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:56.760 in you know, buses. How do you maintain a friendship 0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:58.640 if at all? Or how do you start to argue 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:04.880 over you know, this ends up being over decades. Uh, 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:09.800 it's it's it becomes sort of very similar to brothers 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.520 in my case, in John's case. You know, you get 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:15.800 along with your brother. Sometimes you don't get along with 0:33:15.800 --> 0:33:20.480 your brother. You uh, you know you don't have to 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:22.480 be around that person, but yet you know you see 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:24.240 him at Christmas time? You know, hey, how you doing? 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:26.800 And and that's that's as much as you need to 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.520 do that kind of stuff. That's that's that's pretty much 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:34.040 describes my relationship with John. Uh. We we have experienced 0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.280 a lot together over the years, and we've experienced a 0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:41.840 lot separately. And time changes. Time changes things. It changes 0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:46.320 your relationship. It doesn't change certain things, uh, brothers or brothers, 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.800 but time does change things. Okay, see him make a 0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:52.840 record with the wreath. You know who's some of a 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:55.000 lot of experience and a lot of success. What was 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.920 that like? And what you learn from a reef? Everything? 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:03.560 I learned everything from Reef. He he was, he was unbelievable. 0:34:03.680 --> 0:34:08.400 I I will never stop saying that I, uh, the 0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:11.480 best thing ever happened to me was was my relationship 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:18.200 with Reef. He was a He was to me A 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:21.040 Reef and Quincy Jones are the two best producers in 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:25.479 modern music. Uh. He could do anything. He could put 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:27.719 anything together and make it work and make it real. 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:31.680 His his his musical knowledge was so desparate, it was 0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:36.799 so all encompassing, h that you couldn't throw anything at him, 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:39.520 No artist could throw anything at him that he didn't 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:44.000 have the ability to relate to and understand and and 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:49.879 and formulate into something coherent and and good. Um. He 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:53.600 was a real gentleman. And I had a very close 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:56.440 relationship with him for years and years, even after all 0:34:56.480 --> 0:35:01.200 this stuff went down, Uh, and all the way to 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:05.399 his death. A relationship with Okay, a lot of people 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.239 say they make the first record even though you had 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:12.440 experience in your case, and they're kind of overwhelmed and 0:35:12.480 --> 0:35:16.279 they let the producers steer them. Was that your experience? 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:18.360 Who you have so much experience you could sort of 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:22.000 stand up for what you wanted? Well, I I didn't 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.040 know what I wanted with a Reef and the whole 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.640 Oats record. I don't even like that record. If you 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:29.759 want the truth, Uh, but what I like what a 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.040 Reef did to it. That that's the best part. The 0:35:32.080 --> 0:35:36.799 best part is a Reef of that record. Um um. 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:39.200 It was a It was a bunch of songs that 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.200 we had written while we were in school and all that, 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.560 and it was sort of a compilation that we decided 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:47.000 it was a first album, you know. So I was 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:50.120 I was more than happy to have somebody like a 0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:54.120 Reef directing the show. Now, I'm not usually like that, 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:58.279 and I don't respond so well to autocratic producers. He 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:02.560 wasn't that, by the way, but uh, I was very 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:04.799 happy that he jumped in and made something out of 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:07.680 that record and out of those songs. Okay, what does 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:10.719 the label say when the first record is not really successful? 0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:17.759 They didn't. It was different times. Many they they said, 0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:21.120 don't worry about hits, just make great music. And that 0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:26.040 was what Alma said to me, and I always respect 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:30.640 him for that. You know. They they believed in developing artists. 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:34.439 So next you make a band in luncheon at what's 0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:39.399 the different experience there from making the first album? Well, 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:44.920 I we that was purpose purpose written. That was written 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:47.799 for that project, as I was talking about earlier, and 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:51.440 uh uh, it was a really to me, that was 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:58.640 a whole of its album. Um, there was a lot 0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:01.720 of John's John could remat it a lot to that album, 0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:04.840 and She's Gone is the ultimate contribution. That is the 0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:07.799 ultimate Hall of Notts song because it was written by 0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:14.799 all of notes and uh uh it was really really 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:22.120 exquisitely produced album, interestingly produced. Uh. I don't think there's 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:25.160 anything like it. It's a bizarre album, but in its 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.600 own way. Uh. And I'm I'm I continue to be 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.480 very proud of that album. I think that was a 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:33.719 great album and it and it defines whatever. And if 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:36.600 you want to talk about Hall and Oates, that's that's 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:41.399 the record to pay attention to. Now. Frequently when someone 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:46.359 writes a classic, they know it. And did you know 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.600 She's Gone was a classic? And how did you feel 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.080 about the fact that it didn't get traction at that time? 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:55.839 I don't think anybody knows they read a classic until 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:59.719 after the fact. That's impossible to know. I knew that 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:02.799 I were a groups. We wrote a good song. A 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.360 reef his eyes lit up the first time I played it. 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:07.759 I sat down and played that that riff that I 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.920 play on the on the piano. I knew there was 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:17.960 something good about it, and uh I uh was what's 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:21.520 the word I was? I was patient enough to let it, 0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:26.000 let the cards fall, you know. I mean the first 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:28.839 thing that happened was it got covered by a bunch 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:32.239 of people. Uh even Lou Rawls covered it, you know. 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:36.480 Uh Tavaris had a hint with it, um and and 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:42.400 And it wasn't until Sarah smiled at anybody really focused 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.399 on it as as as a Darrel and Johns song, 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:49.520 although on quote underground radio and it got a lot 0:38:49.560 --> 0:38:53.600 of play back in those days. Okay, since who owned 0:38:53.600 --> 0:39:00.040 your publishing at that point, well that's always been a 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:09.000 key subject. Uh, I don't even know. I don't even 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:11.400 know what. I wasn't paying it. I was stupid, like 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:13.880 many people were stupid, and I wasn't paying much attention 0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.719 to my publishing. I didn't even understand publishing back then. 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:21.560 When did you learn about publishing? Too late? Too late 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:27.880 to who owns your songs? Today? Uh? I owned them 0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:34.719 and the other seventy yeah right now? BMG. Okay, just 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:38.040 so I know of the publishing such that if you 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:43.799 write the song, you get seventy five cents on the dollar. No, 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:52.000 I get period yeah, okay. And b MG does not 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:57.960 own it, it's just licensed to b MG. Real they 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:03.160 owned Okay. So out, let's assume you stop working tomorrow 0:40:03.400 --> 0:40:08.279 only only owning only you're publishing. Is that enough to 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:21.680 have you make ends meet? Oh? Yeah, probably is okay? 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.160 So you make the second album, you make the third album, 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.600 At what point do you realize there's gonna be no 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.600 future in Atlantic? And how did you end up at 0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:34.000 our c A. Well, it was it was ah, it 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:40.840 was more business. I again, this was more Tommy Matola 0:40:40.960 --> 0:40:43.399 talking to people. You know, he talked to us, guy 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:46.680 Mike bernick Er and and and I mean I kind 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:49.400 of remember these names, uh at our c A and 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:51.560 I think they offered us a lot of money to leave, 0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:54.480 and I think Jerry Greenberg said it's okay, we're not 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:59.319 it's not really it's not really clicking yet, and we'll 0:40:59.400 --> 0:41:02.080 let it go. And I'm not quite sure how that 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:05.000 all went down, but that's that's sort of what happened. Well, 0:41:05.040 --> 0:41:07.040 I don't know to what degree you were conscious, but 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:09.000 at the time Our c H did not have a 0:41:09.000 --> 0:41:13.920 good reputation for breaking acts. I didn't know ship. All 0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:17.400 I know is they were giving us you know, Matt All, 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:22.400 I was incredibly ignorant, Bob. That's all I can say. Okay, 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:24.959 So how did you How did you approach the first 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.720 album in r C A differently from how you approached 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:35.000 the records on Atlantic Um. I can't remember because Chris Bond, 0:41:35.239 --> 0:41:41.359 uh oh, I was working. We had a guitar player 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:45.920 named Christopher Bond, and he was active when they abandoned 0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:50.240 Legendent record and he said let me produce you and 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:53.359 I said okay. And it was basically he was the 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:58.240 band's guitar player and he was very talented guy. And 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:03.560 and uh uh, I don't know what else to say 0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:05.839 about it. I wrote a bunch of songs and there 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:09.479 they are. So how did you write? Sarah Small sat 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:12.960 down with the piano and wrote it. It was I 0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:18.520 was in living in an apartment street and uh I 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:22.799 basically it was a postcard. I mean Sandy was there. 0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:24.960 I mean she was in the other room probably when 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.480 I wrote it. Well, were you writing it for a 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.480 project or did you get an inspiration standing in the 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:34.200 shower and go I gotta run with this? Oh? Well, 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:39.600 I mean I totally inspirational. And then always songs are inspirational. 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:43.000 It just happens to be within the project. But yes, 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:45.920 I I was reading, I knew that I was writing 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:48.680 for that album, and I said, okay, here's a song. 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:52.319 I mean it was. It was total inspiration. And so 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:55.480 let's assume you're writing for a project. You know, you 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:59.000 could sit in your studio and say it's from the guitar. Well, 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:01.200 you could wait for a bull to lightning. What is 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:04.239 that experience like? Or there's certain tricks you use try 0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:11.600 to be inspired, Well tricks, There are no tricks. I 0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:15.799 I just observe. I observed and opened my heart and 0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:19.160 and and that's how things happen. And that's as simple 0:43:19.160 --> 0:43:22.920 as that. It's it's it's it's not it's anti intellectual. 0:43:23.719 --> 0:43:26.680 Well two things. What happens if hey, what happens? If 0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:31.000 it's not coming, I walk away. I just move on. 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:33.759 I don't. I don't. I don't be laboring. Okay, do 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:35.920 you ever say this isn't working, so let me go 0:43:36.000 --> 0:43:37.960 to a movie, let me go out for a drive, 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.080 and maybe that'll loosen me up. Well, yeah, I don't 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:42.960 even sit down with the idea that I'm going to 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.879 do anything. I usually it's an inspiration and I walk 0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:49.120 over to the guitar, walk over to a keyboard, and 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:53.040 and and make something happen. It isn't that I sit 0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:55.799 there and like a typewriter and say, okay, well this 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.160 is working, and this isn't working. It's it's working because 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.400 I walk over to the keyboard now and one of 0:44:01.440 --> 0:44:05.360 these projects. Did you ever find that you weren't inspired 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:10.400 enough before the recording date hit? No? No, I always 0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:14.600 I always rest to the occasion. Uh. The results aren't 0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:17.480 always what I was hoping for or whatever, but but 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.359 I I rested the occasion. I always do. So how 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:27.200 did you meet the Allen sisters? I met Sarah Allen 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:31.720 in Philadelphia? Uh, actually John introduced me to her. Johnny 0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:34.000 used to like to walk around and he still probably 0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:36.600 does that, and uh, you know, on the streets and 0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:40.600 just say a lot of people and uh, Sandy Allen, 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:44.360 Sarah Allen, who was living around the corner. Not to 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.120 my knowledge, she was just out of college. She was 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:51.040 a charter she worked for Charter Airlines, and uh, she 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:54.400 was in and out of town, you know. And she 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:56.000 came over to the house one day and I met 0:44:56.000 --> 0:45:01.520 her and I said, no, you know, and we eventually 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:06.000 we did something clicked, and uh we wound up living 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:10.960 together and uh we trying to remember we didn't live 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:13.319 together Philadelphia. We that was right around the time when 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:17.000 I was moving to New York and we we shared 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:20.960 that apartment on eighty two Street, and her sister lived 0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:25.000 in Chicago. She was a la kid and uh I 0:45:25.120 --> 0:45:31.400 met her around that time. Family stuff, and and we 0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:33.880 grew very close, all the three of us, and uh 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:38.879 and and Joanna moved to uh the East Coast, and 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:43.800 we were all sort of hanging out together and it was, uh, 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:46.759 it was, it was. It was really quite nice. I mean, uh, 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:49.279 like I said, John, I was just a kid, and 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:53.040 uh but she was a very eager to learn kid. 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.080 She was really a talented musician. I have to say, 0:45:56.400 --> 0:46:01.680 she was really talented. Okay, now you've been married, how 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:03.920 did you decide to get married? Is your work? As 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:06.440 things are kind of bouncing off the walls before. So 0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:09.560 that was that was I look at that as kids stuff, 0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.200 you know, as you know the error I grew up in. 0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:15.759 You went study and you got married, you know, I mean, 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:19.560 this girl, it was it was a school school stuff, 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:24.160 and uh, we quickly learned that we weren't going to 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:29.680 last you know it was we were just kids, and uh, 0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:31.920 it lasted like two and a half years or something 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:39.400 like that. How did it end imicably? It did just 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:43.040 sort of who and in the fifty decade, five decades 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:46.480 fifty years since then, have any contact or never seen her? 0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:52.640 I haven't seen her in decades. Okay, So how do 0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:57.239 you end up writing songs with the Allan system? Well 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:02.960 it started on the silver album. I had this song 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:07.040 you know, it doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. And uh, 0:47:07.080 --> 0:47:09.680 I mean Sandy was around. You know when we say 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:14.360 Sandy is Sarah? You know? And uh, uh she was 0:47:14.400 --> 0:47:19.960 around just as we're there is her birthday? Sandy or Sarah? 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:21.840 And how did one day come? The name is Sarah 0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:25.319 Allen and and she everybody calls her Sandy that knows 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:29.879 her any reason, any reason? Why do we know she's 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:35.000 been Sandy is says she was a kid. Okay, so 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:39.800 you're sitting around continue there, So anyway, I'll use Sandy 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:42.680 now because I know that everybody knows who Sarah is. 0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:45.400 And uh, and she used to just sit around and 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:48.120 well she'd be there, you know, in the house we 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:51.400 were I've right in the living room, you know, and uh, 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:55.160 she started contributing things, and she's in that song. You know, 0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:59.240 it doesn't matter anymore. She contributed to the song, and 0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:02.880 I went, oh, okay, well, she actually has something interesting 0:48:02.920 --> 0:48:07.560 to say here. And in those days she didn't. It 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:09.959 was it was not anything official, and she didn't really 0:48:09.960 --> 0:48:12.680 write with me very much in those days. I can't 0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:19.280 remember when she actually started really collaborating or co writing 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:23.399 or throwing lyrics out. I can't remember which song would 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:26.680 have been the first one other than that one. Uh. 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:31.560 But in the in the late around and well, all 0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:34.920 those eighties songs is when it really came into fruition 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:38.040 and she was really in the middle of all that 0:48:38.680 --> 0:48:42.160 and and really contributing a lot. Uh. And as far 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:45.360 as Joanna goes, Janice the first, the first song I 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:48.560 ever wrote with Janna. She was that at that time, 0:48:48.560 --> 0:48:50.279 she was living where the parents had no no with 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:52.680 the parents. She was living in l A. And Uh. 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:56.799 She had the idea of a song called kiss on 0:48:56.800 --> 0:49:00.600 my list, and it was a first song I ever 0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:04.319 wrote with her. She's twenty and and I sat down 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:06.200 whether to a world or her piano she had in 0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:09.560 her little living room, and I started playing those chords 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:15.080 and and and she started. You know, we we literally 0:49:15.120 --> 0:49:18.279 wrote the song together. And I wrote it because she 0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:20.719 says she wanted to be an artist, and I said, well, 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:24.120 let's write a song for you. And I did that song, 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:27.120 and I went back to New York and made it. 0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:31.399 I did a four track demo of it, and that's 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:35.319 what you hear. That's the four track demo. Yeah, oh 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:39.319 really kissing. Okay, let's go. Let's go back to the 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:43.640 silver album. So Sarah Smile as a hit, and in 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:46.279 the wake of that, She's Gone is released and as 0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:52.000 a hit too. What was your experience? Sarah Smile had 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:57.759 an amazing and and somehow appropriate beginning. We were we 0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:02.120 had released that was the third third single that that 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:06.359 r c A released on on the Silver album, and 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:14.360 we were in Germany. We were in Germany touring and 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:19.240 somebody said, in Ohio on the on the black stations 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:25.200 in Ohio, suddenly they're planning Sarah Smile. I think it 0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:28.440 was it started in Dayton or Acron or somewhere like that, 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:32.279 I can't remember. And Uh, it suddenly started spreading all 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:37.080 over into all the black stations, and we had it. 0:50:37.200 --> 0:50:41.400 We had a hit on R and B radio. Uh 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:44.880 and it was like, whoa, this is happening, and it 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:47.239 really was word of mouth. It was one of those 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:52.520 things that spread like wildfire. And then then uh, then 0:50:52.600 --> 0:50:56.840 pop radio what I call white radio star at that time, 0:50:57.600 --> 0:51:02.280 started playing it and it became this giant year. And 0:51:02.640 --> 0:51:05.279 but it all started in the black community. I mean, uh, 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:10.120 Sarah Smile was was generated from that world, which again 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.840 I find to be appropriate to the song and to 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:18.319 my career in life. So that's successful. She's gone as successful. 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:24.600 How does that change your confidence and outlook? Well, I 0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:28.440 figured we had some figure, we had some ability to 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:31.560 to stick around for a while. I mean, I didn't 0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:35.200 have any master plan, but I thought, okay, well it's working. 0:51:35.320 --> 0:51:38.120 Something's working. Now we can go out and tour. You know, 0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:40.239 now we can play we have songs to play for 0:51:40.280 --> 0:51:45.640 people that they want to hear. And it was, um, 0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:48.040 it was the beginning, you know, it was the beginning. 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:52.520 It validated what I was doing, and that's encouraging. Validation 0:51:52.640 --> 0:51:54.759 is really an important thing because it makes you more 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:58.640 confident what you're doing. Okay, so that record, how does 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:02.640 the bigger than both of the album come together? That 0:52:02.719 --> 0:52:05.440 was another Cris Bond record and we did it, and 0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:07.920 we decided, well, he was living in California and we 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:10.840 decided to go out there and do it. Uh and 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:16.640 it was uh yeah, that's what I'm That's all I 0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:20.080 could say. It was a California record, and the musicians, 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:22.440 the sidemen that we're on it were a lot of 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.040 the l A players. Okay, so how did your right, 0:52:26.160 --> 0:52:29.560 rich girl? Okay, let's we'll backtrack a little bit and 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:34.840 I'm back at street. UM in my apartment, same keyboard, 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:41.760 I wrote Sarah smile on UM. Sandy had a old 0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:48.560 boyfriend came over from uh Ohio and uh he was 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:54.320 you know, this was a mid seventies, early seventies. Everybody 0:52:54.400 --> 0:53:01.000 was high as motherfucker, you know, and he was Let's see, 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:04.920 I think it's I think his father had a fast 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:07.640 food chain or something like that. I'm not even I'm 0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:11.040 a little vague on all that. But anyway, he in 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.800 my in my perception, he was a rich He was 0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:17.160 a rich guy. You know, he came from a rich 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.960 he came from a rich family. And uh so he 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.800 he left and uh, he was acting kind of strange. 0:53:24.880 --> 0:53:27.799 I mean, he was a good guy, but I it 0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.160 gave me, gave me the inspiration, and I sat down 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:32.480 as he left. I went, he's a rich guy and 0:53:32.560 --> 0:53:34.799 he's gone too far because he knows it. Don't bad 0:53:34.880 --> 0:53:38.440 it anyway, And I wrote it about rich guy and 0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:42.160 then I U I said, no, that doesn't sound right. 0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:43.880 I can't write a song called rich Guy, So I 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:47.799 changed the Rich Girl. Did you know as you were 0:53:47.840 --> 0:53:54.000 writing it how successful it would be? Uh? No, no, 0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:58.080 definitely not. So you cut it in l A. You 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.799 got a finished version. You still have no idea how 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:08.120 successful would be. I think it's the rare person and 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:10.600 in my entire career, and I've had a lot of 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:15.880 sucking success, you know, commercially, I never was sure. Everything 0:54:15.960 --> 0:54:18.960 is a surprise. Everything is surprised. Sometimes songs that I 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:23.080 thought we're gonna be hits were zero, and sometimes I 0:54:23.080 --> 0:54:27.799 thought songs okay, whatever, but became it. It's you never know, man, 0:54:28.040 --> 0:54:29.759 you can't tell. And a lot of that has to 0:54:29.800 --> 0:54:31.759 do with things that are out of my control, has 0:54:31.800 --> 0:54:35.680 to do with the fucking Paola and you know, record 0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:40.040 business in a level ship, Okay. I vividly remember hearing 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:43.480 Rich Girl the first time and having to go by 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:46.720 the album, which was great. Needles to say that becomes 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:54.799 an iconic hit. How does life change for you? Uh, 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:59.920 it didn't really change. It was just more the same. Uh, 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:03.440 you cant understand something. Two. Tommy Montola was a very 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:06.719 controlling human being. I think anybody that knows anything about 0:55:06.719 --> 0:55:12.120 Tommy Montola's history, he liked to keep things under his control. 0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:14.960 He didn't like things to get out of control. He 0:55:15.000 --> 0:55:19.440 didn't like things to get too high or too low. Uh. 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:23.759 And you were sort of in a bubble, uh, asked 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:27.880 Mariah Carey. Uh, you were in a bubble if you 0:55:27.920 --> 0:55:32.440 were controlled by Tommy Montola. And Uh, it wasn't conducive 0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:40.160 to highs and you know, major major highs or realizing 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:43.160 where you were what you were doing. All I knew 0:55:43.200 --> 0:55:45.280 that I was a road musician. I was out playing 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:48.640 on the road and then I was in the studio 0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:52.600 writing songs. At what point, if any, did you start 0:55:52.600 --> 0:56:03.560 to see some money about five years ago? Really? What 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.120 changed five years ago? Which what change was? I got it. 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:09.320 I got the right manager for the first time in 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:14.000 my life. And Jonathan Wilson, he was a PR guy 0:56:14.120 --> 0:56:17.400 and now he's your manager. How did that come together? Well? 0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:19.960 He was PR guy, and I realized that we had 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:23.399 a rap war and and and an understanding of each other. 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:28.560 And he had an instinct an instinct, and I ran 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:32.240 with it and UH made it, made a major decision 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:35.960 in my life and John's life, and uh and and 0:56:36.040 --> 0:56:40.880 never looked back. And I've never been felt more justified 0:56:40.920 --> 0:56:45.600 in doing it. And what is John done differently from 0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:57.480 the people before? Let me let my instincts drive the bus. Okay, 0:56:57.600 --> 0:56:59.680 so you have this major success, Just one thing, one 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:03.120 ly come there which always sticks out for me? Earth 0:57:03.200 --> 0:57:08.480 shoes Chicago Blues. Was that yours? Or was that John's? No, 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:11.319 it's mine? So what I mean earth shoes for a 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:14.319 big deal that. Remember, you know a lot of people 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:16.560 write songs. They don't like to put specific names. And 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:18.480 you remember where that came from, if at all, it's 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:24.200 a long time ago specific names to what you put 0:57:24.240 --> 0:57:27.480 earth shoes in the song? Oh earth shoes? Well, I 0:57:27.800 --> 0:57:30.080 couldn't think of I was thinking of all the different things, 0:57:31.000 --> 0:57:34.840 uh that that you could uh, all the opposites that 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:36.760 you could think of it. It didn't matter, because you 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.120 just have to follow your instincts. Do what you want, 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:41.280 be what you are. You know, do you believe in 0:57:41.320 --> 0:57:43.760 hot cars, leather bars? And movie stars. Do you believe 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:46.720 in earth shoes? Chicago Blues? What do you know? It's 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:49.480 it's yeah, like that. I wrote that song. By the way, 0:57:49.560 --> 0:57:52.080 John didn't read that song. Okay, if the credits are 0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:55.200 such that, I didn't want to make an assumption. Okay, 0:57:55.480 --> 0:58:02.320 you're incredibly hot, then you get cold. Do you feel 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:06.080 that you're getting cold and nothing seems to be working? No, 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:09.200 I don't. I felt that first of all, the late 0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:12.280 seventies were a bizarre time. They were a bizarre time 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:18.040 societally and a bizarre time musically. And I was caught 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:23.200 in the crossfire. Uh I was. I look at that 0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:27.800 as as as as au opened up an opportunity to me, 0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:31.840 and uh I uh that's when I that's when I 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:35.800 started working with Robert Fripp and uh and and did 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:38.840 those albums that I did with with him, and and 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:43.720 started being more involved with in that world. And uh 0:58:44.240 --> 0:58:47.520 that opened my whole, that whole that expanded my life 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:50.920 to be quite a degree and allowed and allowed me 0:58:51.000 --> 0:58:55.000 to get to the next stage. It was a transitional period. 0:59:01.920 --> 0:59:04.480 How did you meet Fripp and what you learned from Frip? 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:09.240 I learned that you could have douce that my my 0:59:09.360 --> 0:59:15.200 sense of uh spontaneity and and and and and let 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:21.720 anything's happen uh uh quickly and on the spot. And 0:59:22.680 --> 0:59:26.640 I that there are there were people that could roll 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:29.600 with that and and and and and expand upon it, 0:59:29.800 --> 0:59:33.760 and you could have that kind of interaction creatively. Uh. 0:59:34.120 --> 0:59:36.480 Robert is like that. We we we created that ship 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:38.840 out of nowhere. I mean, I I just came up. 0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:41.040 He would just play a guitar riff, and I would 0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:43.840 start seeing whatever came into my mind. And uh and 0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:45.680 a lot of those songs are like that. I mean 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:48.160 some songs are more structured than that, but a lot 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:51.320 of it did come that way. And uh we my 0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:54.360 the Sacred Songs album happened. We made that album in 0:59:54.440 --> 1:00:01.080 about six weeks start to finish, and u uh and 1:00:01.080 --> 1:00:04.840 and the Exposure album, which I did the whole album 1:00:04.200 --> 1:00:06.919 when you know, saying all that wrote wrote us, saying 1:00:06.920 --> 1:00:11.280 almost all the songs. Um that that didn't take much longer. 1:00:11.640 --> 1:00:16.880 I'm thinking about it. Um. But it's that sense of 1:00:16.880 --> 1:00:21.440 spontaneity that I and and and and freedom, freedom and 1:00:21.600 --> 1:00:24.320 joy and all those things. That's that's what I got 1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:28.160 from working with Robert. Okay, how did you end up 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:31.120 working with David Foster was that your choice are foisted 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:36.600 upon you. It was sort of foisted David that we 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:39.240 were his second project. He was again, he was a kid. 1:00:39.600 --> 1:00:43.440 He was twenty two. Uh, and he had I forget 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.919 who he had done first, was an earth Wind of Fire. 1:00:46.040 --> 1:00:48.040 Maybe it was earth Word Fire, which is a hell 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:51.240 of the beginning. Uh, or maybe it was the Sons 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:56.560 of Champlain. I don't know whatever I'm battling. Um I 1:00:57.680 --> 1:01:04.520 I wouldn't call it foisted because he was suggested and uh, 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.800 I thought that he was interesting and I met him 1:01:08.920 --> 1:01:12.720 and and and he had a very strong personality as 1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:17.280 you can imagine, and uh he was he had very 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:20.280 strong opinions musically. But yeah, he was a kid, so 1:01:20.360 --> 1:01:25.400 he was unformed. And uh we uh we. We went 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:29.840 to California and we made a couple of records. Okay, 1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:32.640 as I say, these records are not really big successes, 1:01:32.760 --> 1:01:35.560 like bigger than both of us. And the next thing 1:01:35.680 --> 1:01:38.760 I know, you're playing clubs and you put out a 1:01:38.800 --> 1:01:40.800 live album. I certainly went to the rocks you to 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:45.040 see you from the inside. There's no understanding that, wow, 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:47.560 this is going in the wrong direction. We need a hit. 1:01:48.440 --> 1:01:50.600 I don't know if it was that we ever said 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:53.680 it's going in the wrong direction, But I think that 1:01:54.760 --> 1:01:56.640 the idea that we needed to hit, especially in the 1:01:56.640 --> 1:02:00.160 early eighties or ninety or whatever, was certainly on, you know, 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:04.800 in our minds. Uh uh. If it wasn't my mind, 1:02:04.840 --> 1:02:10.040 it was, it was certainly in Matola's mind. Uh And uh, yeah, 1:02:10.240 --> 1:02:14.000 like that, I mean, but then I don't know. I 1:02:14.080 --> 1:02:16.920 wrote a bunch of songs, then they became his. Okay, 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:20.360 So how do you end up producing yourself? And whose 1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:23.440 idea is it to cover you've lost that love and feeling. 1:02:24.880 --> 1:02:27.600 I thought that the key, I thought that the key 1:02:27.640 --> 1:02:31.040 to some kind of success was for me to produce 1:02:31.080 --> 1:02:34.040 the well I go, I have to include John in this, 1:02:34.640 --> 1:02:37.480 for me and John to produce the album ourselves, because 1:02:38.240 --> 1:02:41.880 I just felt that nobody really understood what we were 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:46.760 doing other than ourselves. And uh that came especially after 1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:49.760 working with David, who is a very talented guy. We 1:02:49.800 --> 1:02:52.320 all knew that, and but he had his own opinions 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:55.040 and and he didn't necessarily see music the same way 1:02:55.080 --> 1:02:58.120 as I did. Uh. So that was that was the 1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:03.840 important step, is producing ourselves. And uh uh And as 1:03:03.840 --> 1:03:06.760 far as who you also love feel we had we 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:09.480 had done the whole album and we felt that we 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:12.200 needed something else to a round out the album. And 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:15.640 I happened to be in the Mud Club in New York. 1:03:16.600 --> 1:03:18.400 That was one of those days when everybody went to 1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:22.400 mud club and uh and and they played in the 1:03:22.480 --> 1:03:24.360 room they were playing you lost that love of feeling, 1:03:24.960 --> 1:03:27.920 and I thought to myself, that's an interesting thing, you 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:30.080 know what to duo. Maybe we should just like sing 1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:34.520 do a modern version of that song. Uh. And that's 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:37.479 and we the next we were in the Electric Ladies 1:03:37.520 --> 1:03:39.520 studios and I think it was like the next day. 1:03:39.720 --> 1:03:41.600 We went in there and we cut it. And we 1:03:41.680 --> 1:03:44.960 cut that song in about three hours and U there 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:48.000 it is, so tell me the story if you make 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:51.040 my dreams. Uh, well, there's not a whole lot of 1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:55.000 story other than I was sitting in my apartment in 1:03:55.320 --> 1:04:02.760 h in the village and uh and I I came 1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:06.200 up with that. I had a my working instrument of 1:04:06.240 --> 1:04:10.520 those days was a c a Yamaha CEP thirty and 1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:13.440 I mentioned that because of the distinct sound of it, 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:18.920 and it's that honky kind of strange, unique sound. And 1:04:19.040 --> 1:04:23.120 I just started playing that riff at where I didn't, 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:26.920 you know, and uh, I started singing something over it, 1:04:27.920 --> 1:04:32.640 and uh uh there was you know, I and I 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:35.400 you make my dreams. And I thought to myself that 1:04:35.560 --> 1:04:39.080 that's that's lame. You make my dreams come true. And 1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:43.280 and I realized that I tried to think around it 1:04:43.880 --> 1:04:47.160 and outthink myself, and I want to no that, let's 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:50.880 just stick with the original thought. It's it's it's directed. 1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:54.240 It is what it is. You make my dreams come true. 1:04:54.600 --> 1:04:57.160 And then I beside I was going to offset that 1:04:57.200 --> 1:05:03.200 with a slightly more flower flower um h verse lyric. 1:05:03.600 --> 1:05:06.520 And if you listen to those lyrics, there a lot 1:05:06.600 --> 1:05:11.800 more high blown than you make my dreams come true? Right, So, 1:05:12.000 --> 1:05:14.760 now you have unbelievable success with this album. You have 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:19.200 three hits. That's gotta feel good. And what do you 1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:24.280 think about going into the next record. We were really 1:05:24.360 --> 1:05:27.400 in a whirlwind at that point. We were we were 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:34.080 on the road, we were experiencing immediate success. We were 1:05:34.120 --> 1:05:37.600 all over the world. Uh we were. If we weren't 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:40.200 all over the world, we were in the studio making 1:05:40.280 --> 1:05:43.960 the next record. It was a very active time and 1:05:44.080 --> 1:05:46.440 with not a whole lot of time to reflect or 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:49.640 understand what was going on around us? Uh? The old, 1:05:50.160 --> 1:05:53.520 the old cliche I of the hurricane. Uh was pretty 1:05:53.600 --> 1:05:59.680 much the way to describe. Okay, I can't go for that, 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:05.000 Oh can do. What's the story there? I we were 1:06:05.080 --> 1:06:10.440 doing the privatized album right yeah, and and uh I was. 1:06:10.560 --> 1:06:13.840 It was sort of after hours and I I had 1:06:13.920 --> 1:06:20.200 this cord crappy little organ and uh and I started 1:06:20.880 --> 1:06:22.560 I turned on and I had and I had a 1:06:22.600 --> 1:06:26.160 thing called the rolling COMPUVERYTHM, which is the most rudimentary 1:06:27.280 --> 1:06:31.440 drum machine that ever was built. And uh, I pressed 1:06:31.520 --> 1:06:36.240 rock and roll one boom Dick Dick boom, you know 1:06:36.560 --> 1:06:40.800 that beat, and I started playing boom but at on 1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:44.000 on the organ and uh and then I started playing 1:06:44.000 --> 1:06:49.040 in the right hand in it, and uh, I said, 1:06:49.200 --> 1:06:51.920 wait a minute, I think I have something here, and 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:57.200 uh I I I John was packing. He was He 1:06:57.320 --> 1:07:00.240 was still there and he was packing his guitar. I said, 1:07:00.280 --> 1:07:02.760 you know, John, come in plug it, just play play 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:05.440 exactly what I say to you. Play bump bump up 1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:08.640 bump bomb right here. He was right there, Okay, bompopo 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:12.200 bomb and he played exactly what I dictated to him. 1:07:12.800 --> 1:07:15.400 And I had a track that was it. That was 1:07:15.480 --> 1:07:18.880 the track. And then I went in the in the room, 1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:21.440 in the vote, in the in the control room, and 1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:24.640 said give me a microphone and I started saying, Hey, 1:07:25.400 --> 1:07:28.880 that right, and I started doing that and that was 1:07:29.680 --> 1:07:33.040 That is literally how the song was created. And then 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:40.200 how did the ultimate lyrics come together through my frustration? Okay, 1:07:40.760 --> 1:07:45.880 so in the midst of all this, MTV launches and 1:07:46.400 --> 1:07:49.440 you make videos. This is in the rudimentary era of 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:55.600 videos at first private eyes, etcetera. But also suddenly which 1:07:55.680 --> 1:07:59.520 we learn, MTV makes people bigger than ever. So what 1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:02.280 was your experience with m DV like it not like 1:08:02.440 --> 1:08:05.640 and then you end up having a long career there. Well, 1:08:05.840 --> 1:08:09.040 I had a love hate relationship with it. I I 1:08:10.600 --> 1:08:12.600 was there, as you said, I was there from the 1:08:13.120 --> 1:08:18.400 the beginning, like the first bloody day, and uh, nobody 1:08:18.479 --> 1:08:20.560 really knew what they had and they didn't really know 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:23.080 what they were doing that they didn't have they had 1:08:23.160 --> 1:08:28.800 no scripting, the VJs. Uh, they would just give Marth 1:08:28.920 --> 1:08:32.040 Quinn or you know who, you know, you name it 1:08:33.120 --> 1:08:36.320 two hours, just go here's here's play this. When that's 1:08:36.320 --> 1:08:39.000 a bat Pat Benatar, play this would played that you 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:42.560 know and you and just talk, and I have to 1:08:42.640 --> 1:08:44.879 hand it to these well, they were like radio DJs. 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:48.840 They would just talk and uh, very early on they 1:08:48.880 --> 1:08:51.280 asked me to do it, and both both on my 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:55.360 own and with John uh to to be VJs and 1:08:55.520 --> 1:08:58.400 we would just do anything just to pass the time. 1:08:58.920 --> 1:09:01.720 I mean, I remember one time I had t bone 1:09:01.760 --> 1:09:05.080 on their cooking cooking eggs or something in between songs. 1:09:05.400 --> 1:09:07.080 I mean, it was it was all kinds of It 1:09:07.240 --> 1:09:10.240 was anything goes. It really was anything goes, and that 1:09:10.400 --> 1:09:12.680 was great. It was like the early days of television 1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:15.920 when you hear about Sid Caesar and you know, and uh, 1:09:17.320 --> 1:09:20.479 you know those days. It reminds me a lot of that. 1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:24.840 It was nobody really had any rules. So they didn't 1:09:24.840 --> 1:09:27.560 because it was a brand new thing. So uh, it 1:09:27.720 --> 1:09:30.360 was a really heady time, really a really fun time. 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:32.800 But then you had to deal with the videos and 1:09:32.880 --> 1:09:36.920 the videos where you know, these extravaganza is generally done 1:09:36.960 --> 1:09:41.280 by cokeheads that did commercials, you know, uh, and and 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:44.400 they were all always overblown and they were always ridiculous 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:46.320 and they always had nothing to do with the song. 1:09:46.840 --> 1:09:49.800 And that was the part it didn't like. So there 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:53.920 it is okay, but now everybody over the all over 1:09:53.960 --> 1:09:56.080 the world. Not only knows your songs, they know what 1:09:56.280 --> 1:09:59.559 you look like. And you could you feel that change 1:09:59.600 --> 1:10:01.800 anywhere you when people knew who you were? And was that, 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:06.320 you know, inhibiting or it was it wasn't was it inhibiting? 1:10:06.600 --> 1:10:08.680 You know? I mean I had already experienced that to 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:12.799 some degree, but it actually my my big commercial success 1:10:13.280 --> 1:10:17.120 came simultaneously with that. So I can't differentiate. I don't know. 1:10:17.640 --> 1:10:19.639 All I know is that I was you know, yeah, 1:10:19.800 --> 1:10:23.080 it was Darryl Romania. I mean people, which you know 1:10:23.600 --> 1:10:26.400 I was. I couldn't go to Christmas shopping or do anything. 1:10:26.520 --> 1:10:28.760 I mean I I was chased down the streets and 1:10:29.439 --> 1:10:31.479 you know it was like the Beatles, you know that 1:10:31.640 --> 1:10:34.240 that's bullshit, you know it was. It was that that 1:10:34.360 --> 1:10:39.080 kind of stuff, screaming girls and uh uh it was. 1:10:40.520 --> 1:10:42.519 It was weird. I got to say it was weird. 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:47.760 So you have a long run of success album after 1:10:47.920 --> 1:10:51.080 album with hits. Did you just feel you would come 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:53.080 up with hits or do you go into the studio 1:10:53.160 --> 1:10:55.080 and you say you start your project, Man, I gotta 1:10:55.240 --> 1:10:57.160 I gotta equal I gotta have something like that on 1:10:57.280 --> 1:11:00.479 the album. No, I have never in my I thought 1:11:00.560 --> 1:11:03.760 that way, because that is the death of anything, death 1:11:03.800 --> 1:11:08.240 of creativity. I at the back of my mind, I 1:11:08.280 --> 1:11:11.000 always tried to do my best, and I realized what 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:14.360 what I what I was doing. But I wasn't writing 1:11:14.400 --> 1:11:16.519 songs with the idea they were gonna be hints. I 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:21.040 write the best song I can think of to express 1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:25.360 the emotion that's going on in my head in my heart. Uh. 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:29.080 And that's that's that doesn't get any farther than that, really, 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:32.800 I mean, that's that's how the songs get written. So 1:11:33.280 --> 1:11:36.000 at the peak of your success you end up going 1:11:36.080 --> 1:11:41.439 to air a staff. How does that come together? Oh? Again, 1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:48.599 that was the machinations of Tommy. Uh I I didn't 1:11:48.640 --> 1:11:51.560 care where I was one of the truth and and 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:56.160 you know again more than I have to say, and 1:11:56.640 --> 1:12:05.080 being insulated and isolated. Uh h and uh, I guess 1:12:05.280 --> 1:12:11.599 I don't know. Clide Clide, Jesus Clive not client. Uh. 1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:14.960 Clive Davids said he wanted us badly. I don't know, 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:20.320 you know he and and he he basically gave us 1:12:20.360 --> 1:12:24.200 a pitch to go there. And I guess it worked. 1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:28.120 Worked for Alan Grubbin and Tommy Mattola and nothing to 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:33.360 do with me. Clive has a great, great, a big 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:36.439 reputation for meddling with the music. Did he meddle with 1:12:36.479 --> 1:12:41.560 your music? Yes? He tried it? Did it didn't? My 1:12:41.880 --> 1:12:46.439 My experience with with Clive didn't really turn out very well. Uh, 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:51.120 because I I don't like being told what to do 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:58.160 by anybody. And I mean, I don't want to put 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:00.880 Clive down, you know, but yes, he was a middler, 1:13:01.000 --> 1:13:03.920 and he and just what he thinks. His instincts are 1:13:04.160 --> 1:13:08.000 not necessarily what's best for the artist. And uh, you 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.560 know I had I had one memorable meeting where I 1:13:10.920 --> 1:13:13.679 walked out of the basically walked out of the meeting 1:13:14.760 --> 1:13:16.200 when he tried to get me to sing a song 1:13:16.240 --> 1:13:25.280 called I've Got a New Blue Suit. So you know, 1:13:25.680 --> 1:13:28.519 it's a bad experience all around. Clive is middling and 1:13:28.640 --> 1:13:33.040 you have no hits. What's going through your brain? What's next? 1:13:33.479 --> 1:13:36.240 I don't know. Uh, I can't even remember what was 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:38.479 going on. Then, you know what I I don't know. 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:42.080 I was I was starting to think about making some 1:13:42.200 --> 1:13:46.519 solo records, and uh and and and moving into that 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:52.000 direction for a while. And uh, I've always spent a 1:13:52.040 --> 1:13:55.519 lot of time in England, especially in London, and I 1:13:55.680 --> 1:13:59.280 decided I had a house at that time. I well, 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:04.479 I had boadhouse, and I decided to move to England. 1:14:04.560 --> 1:14:06.720 So I moved to England and made a couple of 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:11.920 records basically out of there. And uh, I'm very proud 1:14:11.960 --> 1:14:14.400 of it. That's what I'm promoting right now. That's I'm 1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:18.599 I'm promoting the uh excerpts from the from those albums. 1:14:19.160 --> 1:14:21.560 And uh, I looked at that as it was. That 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:23.840 was that was a lot of fun. The early nineties 1:14:23.880 --> 1:14:30.080 were great. Okay, so things keep moving on MTV changes, 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:34.639 it becomes hip hop, you know, grunge, etcetera. Very slick videos. 1:14:35.240 --> 1:14:37.599 You make those albums when you come up for air. 1:14:38.520 --> 1:14:43.720 What does the world look like to you? Uh? It 1:14:43.880 --> 1:14:46.880 was it when I came up for air out of 1:14:46.960 --> 1:14:49.360 my good time in London, it started going like, Okay, 1:14:49.400 --> 1:14:51.200 now I gotta figure out what I'm really gonna do. 1:14:52.080 --> 1:14:57.720 And uh, I I will say that the second half 1:14:57.760 --> 1:15:00.839 of the nineties, I was I was looking for direction, 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:03.400 I was looking for something. I was looking for whatever 1:15:04.160 --> 1:15:06.840 U Matola had left. I mean that was that. We 1:15:07.120 --> 1:15:09.680 go back to that in that nine is when we 1:15:09.800 --> 1:15:14.080 parted company, just to be very specific. He ended up 1:15:14.160 --> 1:15:17.519 going from the management side to the label. Is that 1:15:17.800 --> 1:15:21.000 what rupture the relationship ors is something totally separate. It 1:15:21.160 --> 1:15:23.240 was a little a combination of both. He he he 1:15:23.400 --> 1:15:26.760 left me for Mariah and uh and I say it 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:29.320 that way because that's what it was like. And uh 1:15:30.160 --> 1:15:33.759 and uh and then at the same time he managed 1:15:33.840 --> 1:15:36.479 to Uh, well, there's book has been written about it 1:15:37.200 --> 1:15:40.559 that he got into managed to get into the position 1:15:40.600 --> 1:15:44.080 of the head of it, of the sony and uh. 1:15:45.439 --> 1:15:48.280 Uh so we didn't really have That's when our relationship 1:15:48.400 --> 1:15:53.200 changed completely. And uh uh uh and I moved on 1:15:53.439 --> 1:15:56.040 and I and I went up with with somebody who 1:15:56.120 --> 1:16:00.519 used to work in the mental organization, and and and 1:16:00.720 --> 1:16:04.320 he was also my tour manager and he started managing 1:16:04.360 --> 1:16:07.080 me for quite a while until until Jonathan came on 1:16:07.160 --> 1:16:13.960 the scene. Okay, so prior to Mariah coming on the scene, 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:16.960 and based on what you just said, can we say 1:16:17.080 --> 1:16:20.760 that you were number one in Tommy's book, that you 1:16:20.880 --> 1:16:24.040 trumped everything and he was thinking about you, etcetera. Oh, 1:16:24.200 --> 1:16:27.120 without a doubt, without even in shadow of a doubt. 1:16:27.360 --> 1:16:30.439 I mean he had other artists, uh, and I feel 1:16:30.479 --> 1:16:32.240 bad for those other artists. If you want the truth. 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:35.040 I mean one of my somebody who I think is 1:16:35.080 --> 1:16:38.479 one of the great overlooked artists as August Arnell with 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:43.000 Kid Creole in the Coconuts. He was he was managing August, 1:16:43.080 --> 1:16:46.080 but he christ he you know, he had had a 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.400 clue what to do. It lost. Yeah, And and even 1:16:49.479 --> 1:16:54.000 though Aggy had great success in Europe outside the United States, 1:16:54.400 --> 1:16:56.479 Tommy didn't know what to do with him. He was busy, 1:16:57.960 --> 1:17:03.360 busy with me basically, and you part ways. Is that 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:05.880 the end of the relationship or do you have any 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:11.960 contact with him thereafter? Through today? Not through today so much? Uh? 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:17.960 We we we were in contact for many many years 1:17:18.400 --> 1:17:23.560 after all that. Uh now nowadays we're not really so 1:17:23.680 --> 1:17:27.040 much in contact. So you come back to the States, 1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:30.200 it's the nineties, you're looking for direction. Pick up from there. 1:17:32.160 --> 1:17:36.000 I'm thinking I did. I did my solo albums, two 1:17:36.040 --> 1:17:40.320 solo albums. I did an album called Marigold Sky with John. 1:17:41.000 --> 1:17:45.280 Decided to try a record with John, and then uh 1:17:46.600 --> 1:17:49.160 then I'm did oh I did to do It for 1:17:49.240 --> 1:17:52.559 Love album which with with John that was in England. 1:17:53.920 --> 1:17:59.200 Uh and uh then we did other things. We we 1:17:59.280 --> 1:18:02.240 did We did a Christmas album and I mean, you know, 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:05.519 this all kind of runs together. Uh, it was just 1:18:05.760 --> 1:18:08.040 kind of random. I don't know. We we we didn't 1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:11.479 really have a focus direction either as Hall and Oates 1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:15.080 or as solo artists. It was sort of in between. 1:18:15.200 --> 1:18:17.240 It was the beginning of that is the beginning of 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:22.160 of us going in two different directions and uh uh, 1:18:23.240 --> 1:18:26.360 but but still doing the occasional project and doing and 1:18:26.560 --> 1:18:29.639 and uh and playing live. That was when we sort 1:18:29.680 --> 1:18:34.240 of became a live band for real and started playing everywhere. 1:18:34.479 --> 1:18:38.360 And was that driven by a need to be on 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:44.240 stage or a need for money? Both? You gotta make money. 1:18:44.320 --> 1:18:45.960 You gotta you have to support a band, and you 1:18:46.040 --> 1:18:50.879 have to support yourself. Uh. You know, I'm like anybody 1:18:51.000 --> 1:18:57.640 you have a job, and uh uh as far as 1:18:57.760 --> 1:19:01.960 need to do, I do. I need it. I I've 1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:03.920 been doing in my whole life. So I don't know 1:19:03.920 --> 1:19:06.040 if you call that a need or not. But I 1:19:06.720 --> 1:19:09.639 do live to perform. I love to perform. I'm I'm 1:19:09.680 --> 1:19:21.080 a performing animal. Okay. At what point in this story 1:19:21.240 --> 1:19:27.080 do you get into construction projects? Ah, that's that's a 1:19:27.160 --> 1:19:30.240 parallel story. I've been doing that forever. I grew up 1:19:30.280 --> 1:19:34.160 in a in a in a strange family of there 1:19:34.200 --> 1:19:40.840 were either musicians and or people who worked in Like 1:19:41.000 --> 1:19:46.880 my grandfather was a stonemason and brick layer. When I 1:19:46.920 --> 1:19:50.839 say brick layer, he wasn't. He built houses, He built chimneys. 1:19:50.920 --> 1:19:54.000 He was, he was. He was a specialist. And uh, 1:19:54.360 --> 1:19:57.080 I used to live on construction sites. My father built 1:19:57.280 --> 1:20:01.240 the house that I grew up in. Um. I I've 1:20:01.280 --> 1:20:05.160 always been around people who work with their hands, and 1:20:07.080 --> 1:20:10.519 carpenters and and and and and and specialists. And I 1:20:10.560 --> 1:20:13.280 grew up in Chester County, which is uh, you know, 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:17.040 and in the midst of the eighteenth century basically, uh, 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:22.519 that's you know. My family houses are those kind of houses, 1:20:23.120 --> 1:20:27.800 you know, antique structures, and uh, I've always had a 1:20:27.840 --> 1:20:30.920 love of history. And let me thank the first. The 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:32.840 first house I renovated was that one I told you 1:20:32.840 --> 1:20:34.760 about that I would pay eighty five dollars a month 1:20:34.840 --> 1:20:39.439 for it was a late eighteenth century house row house 1:20:39.479 --> 1:20:42.519 in Philadelphia that was completely destroyed. And I went in 1:20:42.600 --> 1:20:46.800 there and started renovating and painting and doing everything and 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:49.960 fix that house up to live in. And then the 1:20:50.040 --> 1:20:52.679 second one. I've done so many houses, it's just over 1:20:52.720 --> 1:20:58.360 the years, uh uh I've done many many historic houses, 1:20:59.280 --> 1:21:01.479 and I really like doing it. I know how to 1:21:01.600 --> 1:21:05.639 organize it, I know how to I understand the history 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:08.880 of it. I understand how things, how things work. I 1:21:09.000 --> 1:21:13.000 understand construction. I understand all those things, and I really 1:21:13.080 --> 1:21:16.120 enjoy it. It's sort of an avocation. The house that 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:19.120 I'm doing this in right now is the house that 1:21:19.240 --> 1:21:26.240 I completely renovated from scratch, Hies House. Okay, so they're 1:21:26.280 --> 1:21:29.479 always existing houses. You never want to build from scratch. 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:32.840 Oh No. The house that I did the Life of 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:37.639 Darrell's House show, and I did, I took two houses 1:21:37.720 --> 1:21:42.840 down in in uh in uh, near Hartford, Connecticut, and 1:21:43.000 --> 1:21:46.680 moved them to Dutchess County, New York, uh from the 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.720 and and then and built them from below the foundation up. 1:21:51.120 --> 1:21:56.920 So I reconstructed those houses out of uh, you know, 1:21:57.000 --> 1:22:01.439 out of the original materials. Okay, it's let's just say, 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:05.040 this is what you like to do. Are you always 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:10.639 looking for a project? How do you find the house? Well? 1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:14.559 I'm always sort of in a projects. I don't think 1:22:15.000 --> 1:22:18.320 there's been much time that I haven't been under construction 1:22:18.760 --> 1:22:21.360 or in a situation where this construction going on under 1:22:21.400 --> 1:22:25.160 my under my direction. But as I say, what do 1:22:25.280 --> 1:22:28.360 you decide? How do you find the projects to work on? Well, 1:22:28.680 --> 1:22:32.840 a lot of in in well just about all the 1:22:32.920 --> 1:22:36.200 cases I was there were houses that I want up 1:22:36.240 --> 1:22:39.880 living in for at least a while. Okay, so you 1:22:39.960 --> 1:22:42.240 say you really know how to do it. Let's say 1:22:42.280 --> 1:22:45.800 we find a classic house seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds in 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:48.400 need to repair. Walk me through the steps of bringing 1:22:48.520 --> 1:22:52.519 it up to your standards. Well, it depends what it needs. 1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:57.679 I mean, let's let's talk about the worst case scenario. 1:22:58.960 --> 1:23:02.120 What what might that be? That might be something that 1:23:02.280 --> 1:23:07.360 needs foundational work, needs detail work. Uh need you know 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:09.479 to what degree can you do with your friends? To 1:23:09.560 --> 1:23:14.720 what degree you need to outside contract stuff like? Okay? Sure? Uh, well, 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:18.280 I mean you need specialists because that's the whole thing. 1:23:18.360 --> 1:23:19.840 That's one of the things I like about it is 1:23:19.920 --> 1:23:22.639 that that all these people are artisans and they do things. 1:23:23.040 --> 1:23:25.000 I like to do things in a in a way 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:28.360 that we're done originally. I don't like to bring things 1:23:28.439 --> 1:23:32.120 in unless I have to, uh that are that are 1:23:32.240 --> 1:23:36.000 that are modern additions to it? For example, this house 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:41.280 and I'm in I had foundational issues the wall over 1:23:41.400 --> 1:23:43.800 by the not this room, and then the other side 1:23:43.840 --> 1:23:46.559 of the house was starting to cave in around where 1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:49.800 the chimney stack is and I had to shore that up. 1:23:50.240 --> 1:23:52.920 I had to use I beams and I had uh 1:23:54.080 --> 1:23:59.080 re restructure the wall to uh to shore up the foundation. 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:03.200 Uh some I had had columns. I had to uh 1:24:03.720 --> 1:24:07.840 you know that weren't there before. Um, Well, there you go. 1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:12.400 That's that's how you fix it. You're need to say, 1:24:12.439 --> 1:24:15.680 you're a working musician. To what degree are you supervising 1:24:15.760 --> 1:24:19.400 all this? Well, it depends on the project. I was 1:24:19.680 --> 1:24:23.640 very much supervising the Flinthill project because it was I 1:24:23.840 --> 1:24:27.160 was there as to do with proximity this house. It's 1:24:27.200 --> 1:24:30.560 been taken me forever to do. It started when I 1:24:30.600 --> 1:24:33.120 had the TV show and I was that's when this 1:24:33.400 --> 1:24:37.280 this house that I'm sitting and started that project and 1:24:37.479 --> 1:24:40.519 I'm now just finishing it because I've been working so 1:24:40.640 --> 1:24:43.840 much that I couldn't be around physically, and so it's 1:24:43.880 --> 1:24:48.519 taken years to uh uh to to bring to completion. Um. 1:24:49.280 --> 1:24:52.080 But I find that you have to use good g C. 1:24:52.400 --> 1:24:55.639 You have to have a sympathetic GC, somebody who really 1:24:55.760 --> 1:25:00.240 understands antique architecture. And I have an architect who is 1:25:00.360 --> 1:25:05.840 my friend as well as uh she's an amazing uh uh. 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:09.959 She has an amazing ability to work with an antique 1:25:09.960 --> 1:25:14.000 projects and uh and I trust her. I trust her. 1:25:14.120 --> 1:25:18.080 She doesn't she does the heavy lifting literally uh and 1:25:18.479 --> 1:25:20.680 uh you know does does the drawings and all that. 1:25:20.800 --> 1:25:23.679 But but you know, it's it's all about my decision making. 1:25:25.040 --> 1:25:29.400 Anybody's involved with construction know that it's done by individuals 1:25:30.000 --> 1:25:34.559 and it's never perfect. To what degree have this Has 1:25:34.640 --> 1:25:36.720 this been your experience and to what degree do you 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:38.800 let things go? To what degree do you make them 1:25:38.840 --> 1:25:46.360 do it over? Now? Well, towards the end of one 1:25:47.479 --> 1:25:52.400 era of this project that I'm in, uh, I had 1:25:52.439 --> 1:25:54.479 a GC walk off the job. He was a jerk. 1:25:54.920 --> 1:25:58.519 He basically I I turned him onto some people and 1:25:58.720 --> 1:26:02.360 instead of any any any left me for those people. 1:26:02.479 --> 1:26:04.439 And you know, that's one of those kind of and 1:26:04.880 --> 1:26:07.160 so I was stuck. I was stuck without a g C. 1:26:07.360 --> 1:26:09.800 I was stuck with that and uh uh and I 1:26:09.920 --> 1:26:12.120 was in the middle of it was a very difficult 1:26:12.520 --> 1:26:14.439 at the time. I was not getting along with my 1:26:14.680 --> 1:26:18.200 with my wife and and uh, I don't want to 1:26:18.240 --> 1:26:23.120 get into that, but uh, I had to hire an 1:26:23.240 --> 1:26:25.719 architect and I hired a g C from the area 1:26:25.760 --> 1:26:28.720 that I really wasn't that familiar with, and uh and 1:26:28.920 --> 1:26:32.519 in a construction company to to sort of keep the 1:26:32.600 --> 1:26:37.080 project going. And they acted like they knew what they 1:26:37.120 --> 1:26:38.920 were doing, but they didn't know what they were doing. 1:26:39.000 --> 1:26:40.640 And then I wound up having to go on the 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:46.160 road to pay for all this and uh uh. Anyway, 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:50.720 long story short, that's when they started doing funked up 1:26:50.760 --> 1:26:53.200 things and I came back and said, what is this? 1:26:53.360 --> 1:26:55.800 And I did make them rip things out. I'm still 1:26:55.840 --> 1:26:59.240 in the process of some of the things of undoing 1:26:59.360 --> 1:27:04.400 some of them at work. So that happens, so you 1:27:04.680 --> 1:27:08.439 enjoy it. But when the process is done and you 1:27:08.640 --> 1:27:12.360 sell it, are you in the black or the red? Uh? 1:27:13.760 --> 1:27:19.040 Depends depends on the time. Uh depends on the real 1:27:19.160 --> 1:27:21.760 estate time. Right now, I would be in the right now, 1:27:21.840 --> 1:27:24.240 I would be in the in the black because it's 1:27:24.240 --> 1:27:26.680 a good time for real estate. But if I like 1:27:26.760 --> 1:27:31.160 the Flynn Hill project, it was sort of a financial 1:27:31.240 --> 1:27:34.160 disaster because I was doing it all. It was my 1:27:35.760 --> 1:27:41.200 my major one, my my big work, right and uh, 1:27:41.680 --> 1:27:47.400 magnus opus and and and uh and I completed it. 1:27:48.280 --> 1:27:54.400 When right when the real estate when when everything fell 1:27:54.479 --> 1:27:59.560 to pieces when when nothing was worth anything. So that 1:27:59.720 --> 1:28:04.759 wasn't such a great result, but but the project itself 1:28:04.880 --> 1:28:13.400 was was amazing. So how many houses you own right now? Oh? Well, 1:28:13.479 --> 1:28:16.639 I this one that I didn't. I have a studio 1:28:16.760 --> 1:28:19.600 house that's about a couple of miles away, and I 1:28:19.680 --> 1:28:24.280 have a family house in London. Okay, So tell me 1:28:24.320 --> 1:28:28.600 about the genesis of life from Darrell's house. I just 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:33.160 had And it was an idea, a simple, simple idea 1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:40.600 that I could bring the world into my into me 1:28:41.040 --> 1:28:45.880 as opposed to me going to the world. And at 1:28:45.920 --> 1:28:51.800 the time, the Internet wasn't being used for entertainment in 1:28:51.920 --> 1:28:55.080 any way. It was being used for communication and information, 1:28:56.760 --> 1:29:01.920 uh and things like that and commercialization. But nobody even 1:29:02.000 --> 1:29:06.559 really had anything that resembled an entertainment show, at least 1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:09.879 nothing important, especially not a music show. So I decided 1:29:09.920 --> 1:29:12.439 I was going to do a music show, and I 1:29:12.560 --> 1:29:15.920 got somebody to fund it, which is super important changed 1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:20.519 my life, and uh, we started doing it. We just 1:29:20.640 --> 1:29:24.160 did it. It was it was all very real, and uh, 1:29:24.640 --> 1:29:28.320 I said, you know, no audience, Let's just get it 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:32.600 in a room and with people and show show the 1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:35.360 world what it's like to be in the inter sanctum 1:29:35.400 --> 1:29:42.800 of of you know, musical creativity and interaction and uh. 1:29:42.880 --> 1:29:46.040 And one of my first guests with Smokey Robinson, I 1:29:46.160 --> 1:29:48.160 called in my cards, you know, I called in my 1:29:48.600 --> 1:29:51.479 I was just on the phone with people, and Smokey 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:56.640 unbelievably came up to Duchess County, you know, which is 1:29:56.920 --> 1:30:00.800 not that closed anywhere, and U he came up and 1:30:00.800 --> 1:30:03.680 it was amazing, and uh, that was one of the 1:30:03.720 --> 1:30:07.240 first shows. But and it just went from there and 1:30:07.360 --> 1:30:11.400 people really responded to it, and I'm so happy. It 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:13.680 made me so happy. It's it's the happiest I've ever 1:30:13.800 --> 1:30:17.800 been is doing is doing these these shows and that 1:30:17.960 --> 1:30:22.120 in that series. It fulfilled me. It defined me really, 1:30:22.479 --> 1:30:25.240 It's it shows people what I do, what I'm like, 1:30:25.520 --> 1:30:27.519 what I'm like as a person, what I and what 1:30:27.680 --> 1:30:31.920 I do in life, what I'm good at. And uh, yeah, 1:30:32.439 --> 1:30:35.320 so I got some new shows coming. Okay, that's giving 1:30:35.400 --> 1:30:37.840 my next question. So you know you put them out 1:30:37.840 --> 1:30:39.479 of the web series. As you say, the buzz was 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:43.680 unbelievable and you were way ahead of everybody else. Then 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:47.799 ultimately you've gotta deal for television. So what's the status 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:52.240 of it now? Well, you know, everything changes now I don't. 1:30:52.280 --> 1:30:58.880 I have I have regained the funding, and so that's 1:30:58.880 --> 1:31:00.840 an important part. This is not an easy show to 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:07.280 do financially. And uh uh. But having said that, how 1:31:07.400 --> 1:31:10.120 to put it out I'm not sure because everything changes, 1:31:10.439 --> 1:31:12.599 I mean, how do I want to put it out now? 1:31:12.800 --> 1:31:16.240 I mean I've been toying with the idea of of 1:31:17.000 --> 1:31:19.720 just going on YouTube and putting it out that way, 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:22.759 you know, because YouTube is now a channel, a channel 1:31:22.800 --> 1:31:28.080 into itself. Uh, maybe do a combination of I don't know. 1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:31.880 I haven't found I don't know where it's spot is 1:31:31.920 --> 1:31:33.920 going to be, but it's going to be somewhere obviously. 1:31:34.200 --> 1:31:36.840 But but the thing is that it is international show 1:31:37.439 --> 1:31:41.439 and whatever I do will be I want to do 1:31:41.560 --> 1:31:43.639 something that makes it easier for everybody around the world 1:31:43.680 --> 1:31:49.440 to watch it. So I may use regular terrestrial television, 1:31:49.560 --> 1:31:53.160 I might use some streaming service. I might use YouTube 1:31:53.160 --> 1:31:55.479 I don't. I don't know yet, or a combination thereof. 1:31:57.240 --> 1:32:00.080 So how many shows you plan to do? But to 1:32:00.120 --> 1:32:06.559 start with six? Next one season and then um, let's see, now, 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:09.479 how expensive is it to do a show? Well, it 1:32:09.600 --> 1:32:13.160 costs money, but it's not the production. The production is 1:32:13.240 --> 1:32:16.360 relatively well, you know, it's a little bit of money, 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:19.200 but it's the clearances and all that stuff. You know, 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:22.240 there's a lot of money. You have to pay a 1:32:22.320 --> 1:32:25.200 lot of people, you know, you know, artists and publishers, 1:32:25.280 --> 1:32:27.400 and you know, there's a lot a lot involved in it, 1:32:27.479 --> 1:32:30.880 a lot of legal things and a lot of machinations. 1:32:31.000 --> 1:32:32.840 And it was hard to get going in the beginning 1:32:32.920 --> 1:32:34.839 because there was a lot of people who didn't understand 1:32:34.880 --> 1:32:36.360 what I was doing, and they thought that I was 1:32:36.400 --> 1:32:40.200 trying you know, they were some people thought that I 1:32:40.320 --> 1:32:42.639 was like Napster Jr. You know, back in those days, 1:32:42.880 --> 1:32:45.000 that I was trying to steal from the artist, not 1:32:45.280 --> 1:32:48.800 enhance the artists career. So I had a lot of 1:32:49.760 --> 1:32:55.360 of of resistance to getting this stuff started. But I 1:32:55.439 --> 1:32:58.960 will say that my manager and me figuring it out 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:02.160 how to do it and at this late day, because 1:33:02.200 --> 1:33:05.040 you've done so many At first you call in your cards, 1:33:05.760 --> 1:33:11.120 how do you select guests? Now? Well, I still call 1:33:11.160 --> 1:33:14.479 in cards. Um. I have some feelers out right now 1:33:14.600 --> 1:33:19.519 that that are interesting ones. Um. But a lot of 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:25.040 it comes down to scheduling. Most artists have lives and 1:33:25.160 --> 1:33:27.800 they work and then they're on the road and they're 1:33:27.880 --> 1:33:31.880 not in this necessarily in anywhere near upstate New York, 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:34.760 you know. So there's a lot of that that that 1:33:35.320 --> 1:33:37.960 that that's actually one of the biggest factors in trying 1:33:38.000 --> 1:33:39.800 to get people to figure out how they're going to 1:33:39.840 --> 1:33:42.240 actually be able to do the show. Most people say, yes, 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:46.080 that's the funny thing, not funny and it's the happy thing. Uh. 1:33:47.200 --> 1:33:49.120 People say yes, you man, I love that show. I 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:51.599 watch it all the time. And I said, Okay, when 1:33:51.640 --> 1:33:53.680 can you do it? Well, you know, I'm doing a 1:33:53.760 --> 1:33:56.160 tour that maybe next year, you know that kind of thing. 1:33:57.840 --> 1:33:59.800 So will it be done in the same space, with 1:34:00.120 --> 1:34:05.599 same format, with cooking, etcetera. I think, so, I'm going 1:34:05.640 --> 1:34:10.439 to incorporate this house, which is different than the old house, 1:34:11.040 --> 1:34:14.040 and I do it in my club, So I think 1:34:14.040 --> 1:34:16.200 I'm probably going to do the music in the club 1:34:16.680 --> 1:34:21.360 and the food and conversation and dinner here in this house, 1:34:21.479 --> 1:34:24.559 which is only a couple of miles away. Now, people 1:34:24.720 --> 1:34:28.120 always talk about owning a club and owning a bar, 1:34:28.640 --> 1:34:31.799 but it is a business and it's an incredible headache. 1:34:32.520 --> 1:34:34.600 So how did you decide to own the club and 1:34:34.680 --> 1:34:37.360 how much of your in putting hands on attention, does 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:43.560 it need? Well, Luckily I have a partner and he 1:34:43.800 --> 1:34:48.160 has another club. He has a club in the West Coast, 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:52.040 and uh so he's and his his his club is 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:54.160 a version of the kind of club that I have, 1:34:55.000 --> 1:34:59.920 and so he understands that it started with a lot 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.000 of his bringing his his cook in and things like that. 1:35:03.280 --> 1:35:05.240 So I had a lot of help in getting it going. 1:35:05.560 --> 1:35:09.200 I make the creative decisions. I have a lot to 1:35:09.280 --> 1:35:14.439 do with the food. Uh I. Uh, you know, we 1:35:14.920 --> 1:35:18.599 figured out as far as the booking goes and things 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:22.920 like that. Um, and I leave the actual nuts and 1:35:23.000 --> 1:35:27.400 bolts financing and and those those that area to my partner, 1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:32.360 who uh, like I said, has plenty of experience in this. Uh. 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:36.760 I will say that we managed to somehow survive the pandemic, 1:35:37.080 --> 1:35:42.000 which was really not easy. So prior to the pandemic, 1:35:42.200 --> 1:35:44.160 is this just a labor of love or can you 1:35:44.240 --> 1:35:49.760 make any money? Well, it's it's it's sort of a 1:35:51.840 --> 1:35:54.920 it's a generator, you know, it's it's it's it's I 1:35:55.040 --> 1:35:57.080 have people from all of the world come and play there, 1:35:57.280 --> 1:35:59.400 and people from all the world actually come there, So 1:35:59.680 --> 1:36:05.040 it's become a it's become a physical shrine to whatever 1:36:05.400 --> 1:36:09.040 is the Darrel's House kind of thing and uh uh 1:36:09.479 --> 1:36:13.000 and it's it is a labor of love. I love clubs. 1:36:13.120 --> 1:36:15.639 I love the idea of clubs. Clubs are where all 1:36:15.640 --> 1:36:20.840 the good stuff happens, uh, the best music and U 1:36:22.320 --> 1:36:26.120 I uh. And it's also the place that that I 1:36:26.200 --> 1:36:28.960 do my show out of. You know, it's it's it's 1:36:29.040 --> 1:36:31.360 it's a home for me. It's the home home of 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:34.960 the show. Uh. So it's uh, you know, it provides 1:36:34.960 --> 1:36:40.120 a lot of it. There's a lot of the generates 1:36:40.479 --> 1:36:43.120 out of it. Okay, just to be clear, where the 1:36:43.200 --> 1:36:47.680 original episodes were shot from live from Darrel's House. That 1:36:47.920 --> 1:36:51.599 is not the club. That's the house you used to own, right, Yeah, 1:36:51.680 --> 1:36:54.040 that's the that's the Flint Hill house that I created 1:36:54.120 --> 1:36:59.040 from scratch and you ultimately sold that when in in 1:36:59.320 --> 1:37:06.840 in about twenty you know, I don't know, I'll say something. 1:37:06.960 --> 1:37:11.519 We're in that area, maybe I don't know. Okay, needless 1:37:11.520 --> 1:37:13.840 to say, we're all getting older by the minute, and 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:17.200 no one gets out of here alive. You know, do 1:37:17.320 --> 1:37:19.400 you feel that at all that you know there's a 1:37:19.520 --> 1:37:22.560 limited time left and you want to accomplish or you 1:37:22.680 --> 1:37:25.400 just want to ride. What what's your perspective on aging 1:37:26.200 --> 1:37:31.479 and you know the grim Reaper. Well, my perspective is 1:37:32.120 --> 1:37:35.280 that at this time of life, it is time to 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:41.680 not pull punches. Do whatever it is that makes that 1:37:41.840 --> 1:37:44.960 fulfills for me. I'll say me do whatever it takes 1:37:45.040 --> 1:37:48.920 to fulfill myself. What I do it, now, do it, 1:37:50.040 --> 1:37:52.960 don't funk around. You want to do something, go do 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:57.840 it if you can do it, uh because right that 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:00.720 much of a future come on, you know. I mean, 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:04.400 I'm gonna do it until I can't do it. And uh, 1:38:04.840 --> 1:38:07.080 I have a I'm very lucky that I have a 1:38:07.439 --> 1:38:12.160 pretty good jeans. My mother's ninety eight and my father 1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:15.479 was ninety six when he died, and that wasn't his fault. 1:38:16.040 --> 1:38:19.960 Uh So, Um, I think I have some time left, 1:38:20.800 --> 1:38:24.320 you know, and and but I'm gonna do my best 1:38:24.439 --> 1:38:27.599 to take advantage of that time. That's what else gotta say. 1:38:28.120 --> 1:38:30.760 Needless to say, you started a long time ago when 1:38:31.280 --> 1:38:34.000 music really drove the culture. He had a hit, everybody 1:38:34.080 --> 1:38:36.680 in the world knew it. Today, we live in a 1:38:37.040 --> 1:38:41.200 very broad culture where a number one hit reaches fewer 1:38:41.320 --> 1:38:44.920 people than ever before. In addition, there scenes that don't 1:38:44.920 --> 1:38:48.280 seem to stream that well, but do incredible live business. 1:38:48.960 --> 1:38:52.120 Do you keep up on hit music or you just 1:38:52.200 --> 1:38:55.400 say I'm doing what I'm doing. That's just something different. Um, 1:38:55.880 --> 1:38:57.880 I don't keep up with anything. I don't try to. 1:38:58.360 --> 1:39:02.280 I use I I listen to music randomly. I'm not 1:39:02.360 --> 1:39:06.360 a great audience, although I'm a very heartfelt audience. What 1:39:06.439 --> 1:39:11.040 I like something. I'm really a lucky person because that 1:39:11.200 --> 1:39:14.280 what you talked about, I experienced. I had a hit. 1:39:14.479 --> 1:39:16.680 The whole world knew about it. It was that I 1:39:16.880 --> 1:39:21.840 I benefited from that. I I made my bones on 1:39:21.960 --> 1:39:25.920 that and and I used that for what I do now, 1:39:26.320 --> 1:39:30.640 which is very tribal. And I I can relate to 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:33.840 tribalism very well. I mean, I like having my people 1:39:34.200 --> 1:39:36.679 and and playing to the people that give a shit 1:39:36.720 --> 1:39:42.240 about me. And uh that's yeah, I mean it. It's 1:39:42.280 --> 1:39:44.760 worked out very well in my favor. I think, I 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:49.760 feel okay. We both came of age in the sixties. 1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:53.880 Fifties were sort of somnambulance. Sixties come along, you know, 1:39:54.080 --> 1:39:56.880 the boomers take over. There's a war of the generations, 1:39:56.960 --> 1:40:02.519 the Vietnam War. Needless say, it's radically different. What do 1:40:02.600 --> 1:40:10.120 you think about today's environment? Well, we live in a dysfunctional, 1:40:10.920 --> 1:40:17.120 crashing and burning world. It's that's a whole other podcast 1:40:17.200 --> 1:40:20.120 if you want the truth. I mean, I don't even 1:40:20.120 --> 1:40:24.800 know what to say. I'm I'm I'm a I see 1:40:26.520 --> 1:40:36.600 this horrible, horrible disparity between mindsets and uh, that's that's uncrossable. 1:40:37.960 --> 1:40:43.200 And I don't see things getting better. I'm a historian, 1:40:44.880 --> 1:40:47.439 maybe an amateurist story, but I'm an a storian. And 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:52.720 uh and and I we were I see parallels. Man, 1:40:52.960 --> 1:40:57.720 We're headed to the dark ages. Good luck. Well, we've 1:40:57.880 --> 1:41:00.920 believed in the sixties that use could save the world. 1:41:01.000 --> 1:41:04.240 Does music have a role or have times changed or 1:41:04.320 --> 1:41:10.000 it never had that power? I think that there was. 1:41:11.280 --> 1:41:14.320 There was a time where music actually did have a 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:19.200 lot of power. It really did. Uh, Beatles come to mind, 1:41:19.400 --> 1:41:22.120 you know, I mean you know, I mean it was 1:41:22.400 --> 1:41:24.080 it was changing things. It was, it was, it was, 1:41:24.439 --> 1:41:27.120 it was. It drove a social movement, I think in 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:31.720 in in the late sixties. Uh. Now, does music have 1:41:31.800 --> 1:41:37.880 any thing, any power? No, but it can't because of 1:41:37.960 --> 1:41:40.000 what you said before, Because you can't have a hit 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:42.560 and everybody in the world hears it. So you have 1:41:42.720 --> 1:41:45.400 your tribe and that's it. You know, it's it's it's 1:41:45.439 --> 1:41:48.479 never going to have that kind of ability to move people. 1:41:49.240 --> 1:41:51.800 It can't possibly. And what about legacy? Do you care 1:41:51.840 --> 1:41:59.360 if you're remembered? You care if your songs last? Uh? Well, 1:42:00.439 --> 1:42:02.400 I'll take the John Lennon thing and says who gives 1:42:02.400 --> 1:42:08.760 a ship after him dead? You know, I mean, do 1:42:08.880 --> 1:42:13.400 I care? No? I caring is a funny word. Uh. 1:42:14.439 --> 1:42:18.320 I mean, I'm proud of what I've done, and uh 1:42:19.040 --> 1:42:20.760 that's that's all I can say about it. You know, 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:24.519 I mean people could once it leaves me, it belongs 1:42:24.560 --> 1:42:28.200 to the world. I think that's a perfect note to 1:42:28.439 --> 1:42:31.240 end on. Darryl. I want to thank you for taking 1:42:31.280 --> 1:42:34.960 the times, very insightful, great to learn things I didn't know. 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:39.719 Thanks again, sure man, we could do it until next time. 1:42:39.880 --> 1:42:41.120 This is Bob left Sex