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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is the one and only Daryl Hall. Darryll,

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Speaker 1: you've been out this summer with Todd Rundgren on the road.

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Speaker 1: How did that come together? Well, I, you know, I

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Speaker 1: have what I call a body of work album that

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Speaker 1: I put out in one February March, I Forget and uh,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to tour behind it and play songs

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Speaker 1: that uh that are you know that are my solo

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Speaker 1: part of my solo work, and and and I wanted

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Speaker 1: somebody to sort of make the Dallas House the life

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Speaker 1: of Dallas has experience, uh come to the stage. And

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Speaker 1: my first thought was my old friend Todd Rundgren. And

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Speaker 1: because it really is a perfect combination. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: his his musical history and mine are a sort of

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Speaker 1: very unique and very unique and similar, and and uh

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Speaker 1: it's a great It wound up being a really great show. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He uses my band, and then we do stuff together

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Speaker 1: and stuff separately, and it's all really it's all really

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Speaker 1: working out very well. Now. You're both from the Philly

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Speaker 1: area in the late sixties. Uh, Todd was from Upper Darby.

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Speaker 1: He had the band Naz were you aware of all that?

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Speaker 1: Did you like that? Did you know Todd back then?

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Speaker 1: I didn't know Todd back in the in the late sixties.

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Speaker 1: He worked, uh, he was doing that stuff, right, he

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Speaker 1: was in NAZ and what he struck stopped at all

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Speaker 1: those bands, which I was aware of, but I was

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Speaker 1: I was definitely well ensconced in the world of Philly soul,

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Speaker 1: you know, with Gamble and Huff and Tommy Bell and

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Speaker 1: people like that, and and UH and and all the

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Speaker 1: all the radio stations that were involved in that UH,

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Speaker 1: in that UH genre. And so we didn't really know

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Speaker 1: each other, and we met in UH. We really met

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Speaker 1: in New York in the early seventies, appropriately at at

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Speaker 1: a movie showing of Fantase. And how did Todd end

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Speaker 1: up uh doing the producing the third Holland Oldts album,

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Speaker 1: war Babies. Well, it started with that. You know. I

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Speaker 1: thought I had just moved to New York and I

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Speaker 1: I was experiencing New York. You know, I was really

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Speaker 1: full of beans. It was like Philadelphia was one experience

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Speaker 1: I had left that and I said, I want to

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Speaker 1: do something completely different and really opened my mind up

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Speaker 1: and and opened my mind to the sound of New

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Speaker 1: York when I said the sound, you know, the the

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Speaker 1: actual street sounds of New York. And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make a record to write songs that reflected that. And

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Speaker 1: I was aware of Todd's he had just started working

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Speaker 1: with Utopia, and I was I went to see him,

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Speaker 1: uh a bunch of times, really, and I was so

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Speaker 1: impressed with what he was doing. And also that was

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Speaker 1: what he was in his his role. He was he was,

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Speaker 1: he was he was producing everybody from Alice Cooper to

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Speaker 1: the New York Dolls to god knows who, you know,

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Speaker 1: a million people. And Uh, I said, okay, well, why

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Speaker 1: don't this this on paper sounds good? You know, an

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Speaker 1: ex Philadelphia moved to New York. Obviously he's gonna understand,

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Speaker 1: you know, creative person. And let's try and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: And what war Babies album is the result of what happened?

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Speaker 1: You know? Well, that was your third album on Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: and it was not commercially successful. Now, you know most

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Speaker 1: people when things are not happening, they sort of break

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Speaker 1: apart from those people. How did you maintain a relationship

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Speaker 1: with Todd? Uh? I have always respected time and and

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Speaker 1: it was just because it wasn't a commercially accessive, accessible

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Speaker 1: or with commercially accepted album that that really wasn't what

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Speaker 1: my agenda was about with that album. Um, I was

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Speaker 1: naive enough and uh idealistic enough to just say, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's move on. I did that. That was that was

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Speaker 1: an interesting experience, and let's let me use that and

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Speaker 1: and uh incorporate that into whatever the future is. And

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Speaker 1: I never really lost track of Todd over the years,

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Speaker 1: and and uh and so we we've sort of maintained

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Speaker 1: this kind of loose relationship for all those years. Now

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Speaker 1: ultimately you and your partner produced the Hall and Oates

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Speaker 1: albums together, Daryl Hall and John Oates. Uh what did

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Speaker 1: you learn from working with Todd? Um? I learned what

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Speaker 1: not to do? Don't know? So what shouldn't you do?

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Speaker 1: Try try and be accessible, don't don't be inaccessible for

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Speaker 1: its own sake. Uh, that that is a lesson I learned.

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Speaker 1: Uh It Todds of stubborn, a stubborn guy, and he

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Speaker 1: he has a a version to uh to being easily accepted.

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Speaker 1: And I used to have arguments with him about it. Said, Todd,

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Speaker 1: you know this song, this could work out really well

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people would like it. He and

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Speaker 1: he did everything he could have like Funk with that idea.

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Speaker 1: You know. Uh, It's just it's his personality and he's

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Speaker 1: in his mellowness and age now he he has accepted

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Speaker 1: the idea that you could be accessible, which is even

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Speaker 1: a better reason for us to be working together on stage. Okay,

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Speaker 1: do you think if someone else had produced War Babies

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Speaker 1: or you've done it yourself, it would have been more

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Speaker 1: commercially viable. It would have been more commercially viable, but

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Speaker 1: it would have been the same album. Maybe I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if it would have been the same songs.

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Speaker 1: Uh it was. I tend to write for projects, and

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Speaker 1: uh that was written with the idea that I was

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Speaker 1: going to work with Todd in New York and New

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Speaker 1: York environment, and and uh I may have written a

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Speaker 1: completely different set of songs on my own with somebody

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Speaker 1: else or whatever. You know. Tell me about writing for projects,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean there? Well, I I don't write.

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Speaker 1: I mean I do write randomly, but I tend to

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Speaker 1: not not focus my writing until I know that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to either work with somebody or there's some project

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Speaker 1: that's coming up. Um, and then I write with that

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Speaker 1: in mind. It's sort of like energizes me and I

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Speaker 1: start writing like crazy and you know, coming up with

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Speaker 1: ideas and do this all of a piece, and uh

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Speaker 1: that that tends to come out. I like to keep

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Speaker 1: a momentum going. I recently, i've uh deviated from that.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't like that because I was doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of false starts because I'm so busy with other things,

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Speaker 1: and I would get all excited about something to do it,

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Speaker 1: and then it would sort of like sit on the shelf,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I don't like doing that. I like working

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Speaker 1: for the project, putting out the project, keeping the enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: going for the project, and taking it through to its completion.

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Speaker 1: So what would be the time window prior to going

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Speaker 1: into the studio we call an album a project? When

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Speaker 1: would you get excited and then start to compose when

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Speaker 1: I knew I was gonna start doing it, you know,

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Speaker 1: when when it when it started getting scheduled and I

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Speaker 1: knew who I was gonna work with. Uh, And and

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Speaker 1: even in the early stages of the recordings, I would uh,

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Speaker 1: my my mind would be on fire, you know. And

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Speaker 1: that's and I write things right, you know, very spontaneously

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Speaker 1: and quickly. Uh Uh. That's usually the way as worked

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Speaker 1: for me. Okay, And you say you change the content

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Speaker 1: depending on who you're working with, Yeah, to some degree,

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Speaker 1: I changed the mood. I might change. I won't change

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Speaker 1: the emotional uh source of of the song that that

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Speaker 1: comes from me and my experiences. But as far as

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Speaker 1: production goes and even my the melodies I choose, with

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Speaker 1: the chords I choose, it really has to do a

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Speaker 1: lot with with with with with with the moment, with

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Speaker 1: with what what I'm trying to um with the people

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Speaker 1: that I'm working with. Really, Okay, let's go back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning. You grow up in the Philly area, in

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Speaker 1: town and the suburbs where I grew up in Pottstown,

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Speaker 1: which is a Chest County and it was it was

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Speaker 1: an industrial town with farms all around it. And I

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Speaker 1: sort of had my feet on both sides. Uh uh.

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Speaker 1: I lived in amidst farm land, a bicycle right away

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Speaker 1: from the deepest neighborhoods that you want to deal with.

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Speaker 1: And uh so I've always been a sort of a

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Speaker 1: rural urban person, you know, a foot in both sides.

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Speaker 1: And what did your parents do for a living? My

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Speaker 1: mother wore it was a singer and and she was

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Speaker 1: in a band. And she worked also at a radio station,

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Speaker 1: the Pottstown Radio Station. And uh, and my father was

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Speaker 1: around a pattern making department because Potstown was at that

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Speaker 1: time was a very industrial town. And how many kids

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Speaker 1: in the family. I have a sister that's it five

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Speaker 1: years younger than me. And what's your relationship with her?

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Speaker 1: Extremely close? Anything you see visually? Uh, ever is my

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Speaker 1: collaboration with her? You know, she's a graphic a graphic designer, artist, ah,

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Speaker 1: many many things, and she she sort of controls my

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Speaker 1: visual world. Okay, I'm a little younger than you, and

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Speaker 1: I remember listening to the early sixties radio and knowing

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Speaker 1: some of those tracks, listening to sports and then the

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Speaker 1: Beatles hit and it really took off. What was your

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Speaker 1: experience listening to radio and getting into music. Well, in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia it's a really unique environment, or it was a

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Speaker 1: really unique environment, continues to be really to some degree. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And in the when I was a teenager, pop radio

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Speaker 1: was not popular. Uh in Philadelphia people the hip Wi

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Speaker 1: Zi anyway, it wasn't popular with those people. And and

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Speaker 1: if you were cool, you listened to you either listened

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Speaker 1: to soul of music which was everywhere, and that was

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Speaker 1: that was baby food, or even the precursor of that,

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Speaker 1: which was was street corner music, which was the acapella

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Speaker 1: music and doo wop and early early vocal rock and roll. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And there was a guy named Jerry Blavitt who was

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Speaker 1: a very very influential person to people who cared about music.

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Speaker 1: And I was just a total devu tea of that,

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Speaker 1: and I was just I was sort of a street

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Speaker 1: corner singer and uh um. And that was my beginnings

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Speaker 1: doing that. And then that's closely aligned with the whole

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Speaker 1: soul thing, you know, I mean vocal groups, uh, whether

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Speaker 1: they be the Temptations or or the Dandeliers. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's just a progression of the same

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Speaker 1: kind of music. But we rejected. The Beatles were not

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Speaker 1: even thought about in Philadelphia until later later period, let's say,

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Speaker 1: around Revolver Stargard Pepper, people started saying, oh, the Beatles

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Speaker 1: have something interesting to offer Philadelphians. Before that, they just

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Speaker 1: looked at him like a bar band. Okay, you say

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Speaker 1: you were street corner singer, You're living in a rural area.

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Speaker 1: What did that literally look like? Being a Street corner singer. Well,

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Speaker 1: I my parents lived in a rural area, but my

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Speaker 1: all her, all their friends lived in black neighborhood in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 1: I mean sorry in pots Uh so I would I've

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Speaker 1: sort of lived. Sometimes I would sleep at home, but

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Speaker 1: I would, especially in the summertime, I would just be

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Speaker 1: over there on on on Walnut Street in Pottstown. And

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Speaker 1: uh and it was it was. It was music on

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Speaker 1: the streets. That's the best way I could put it.

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Speaker 1: It was it was an integrated neighborhood. And uh and

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Speaker 1: it was the kind of music I liked, everything from

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Speaker 1: gospel music and church music from the corner churches to

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Speaker 1: uh uh two people playing record players in their houses

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Speaker 1: on the front porches and stuff like that. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: come from a soul influence. What about doo wop or

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Speaker 1: Dion and the Belmonts where it was part of your consciousness?

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Speaker 1: Was that something different? Well? Do Deanna go abouts were

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Speaker 1: way too pop? I mean that that that's uh that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yes, I do want music. Vocal group man,

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Speaker 1: you know, people just standing around um and and that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Okay, so you're growing up. What kind

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Speaker 1: of kid? Are you? A good student? Bad student? Have

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Speaker 1: a lot of friends out you know, an outsider. I

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Speaker 1: was an outsider. I was a restless, a restless person. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I was you know, I'm a I know you know this, Bob.

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Speaker 1: I'm an avid reader, like a book worm and in

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Speaker 1: the story and and all that kind of thing. And

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Speaker 1: that put me in odds as a child. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was a good student. Yeah, very good student until

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Speaker 1: I so I got to be a teenager and then

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Speaker 1: I became a very restless and indifferent student. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I was more interested in, uh hanging out than I

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Speaker 1: was uh doing my homework. So at what point did

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Speaker 1: you learn to play musical instrument? I started playing piano

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Speaker 1: at five, and uh, and I played. I took you know,

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Speaker 1: former piano lessons until I was about twelve or thirteen.

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Speaker 1: And uh then my mother or for some bizarre reason,

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Speaker 1: decided that she wanted me to play the trombone and

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Speaker 1: I and I picked up the trombone. And I pretty

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Speaker 1: much hated the trombone, you know, I mean, what cornball instrument.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to play the saxophone. But she said

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Speaker 1: something about your mouth shape isn't right for you know,

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Speaker 1: why didn't I get a saxophone? I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: uh uh, So I stopped the piano lessons and then

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Speaker 1: started playing on my own and writing songs and and

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Speaker 1: becoming you know, learning sort of playing self taught, so

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Speaker 1: you know, self teaching. And then when I when I

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Speaker 1: was I went to tump of University music school so

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Speaker 1: that I resumed my more formal piano studies. And I

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Speaker 1: was actually a piano opera major. And I went there

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Speaker 1: for five years. And but you didn't graduate, right? I

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Speaker 1: quit a few weeks before in graduation. What was the

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Speaker 1: reason there? I had a choice between having to complete

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Speaker 1: this rigorous UH student teaching program or playing a bar band.

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Speaker 1: And I was in a I thought it was a

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Speaker 1: good bar band, and and my supervisor says, you can't

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Speaker 1: do both. You have to choose your life. Either you're

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Speaker 1: going to do this music education thing or you or

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Speaker 1: you're going to be a rock and roll singer. And

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Speaker 1: I said, okay, you just made my mind by now.

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Speaker 1: Frequently when someone has as much success as you do,

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Speaker 1: their old college reaches out and gives him an honorary

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Speaker 1: degree or something. Has temple reached out. Yeah I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't bother with it. I've been I've been offered

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Speaker 1: honorary honorary degrees by Berkeley and Temple, and I just

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Speaker 1: I'm not interested. I don't care. Okay. So when you're

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Speaker 1: going to Temple, you're then living in Philly. Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: I moved to Philadelphia when I was a seventeen and

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Speaker 1: immediately jumped into the heart of the whole thing. And uh,

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Speaker 1: that was the that was the great thing about being

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Speaker 1: going to Tumpy University where in North Philadelphia, at five

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Speaker 1: blocks from the Uptown Theater and uh and you know,

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Speaker 1: and in the middle of the one of the deepest

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Speaker 1: black neighborhoods in the city. And uh I lived in

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Speaker 1: inhabited that area for five years. And and beyond that,

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Speaker 1: of course, uh and that that really quote of sort

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Speaker 1: of formed me. You know, I was I was. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned what I was into in Pottstown, but then when

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Speaker 1: I got to Affiliate really just kind of locked in

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Speaker 1: and I immediately met, uh with within a few months,

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Speaker 1: I met Gamble and huff And and Tommy Bell and

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Speaker 1: people like that, and uh so it all it all

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Speaker 1: started formalizing and and you know, coalescing. Okay, So when

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Speaker 1: you went to Temple on this music program, what did

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Speaker 1: do you think do you think, well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: got to do something now, or I want to do

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Speaker 1: something you know more class to call, probably want to

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Speaker 1: mark time before I become a rock and roller soul star.

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Speaker 1: What was in your mind? Well, No, I was learning

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Speaker 1: things in school. I learned how to be a ranger

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Speaker 1: and and uh you know, I did a lot of

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Speaker 1: sophicio and you know, I home home my craft, uh formally,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, I was sitting in the corner,

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Speaker 1: and I was hanging out and making records with the

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Speaker 1: Temp Tones and and uh and and and hanging out

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Speaker 1: with Tommy Bell and people like that. So it was

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Speaker 1: that to me, that was my real education. Was was

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Speaker 1: was was being introduced and and working with with with

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Speaker 1: the early Philadelphia sound. Well, how did you meet tom

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Speaker 1: Bell and Gamble and Huff. I had a band, We

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Speaker 1: formed a temple called the Temp Talents. It was a

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Speaker 1: vocal group and uh we they used to have just

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Speaker 1: like the Apollo in New York. They used to have

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Speaker 1: talent shows when I believe it was Wednesday nights and

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Speaker 1: uh we uh did did a talent show at the

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Speaker 1: at the Uptown Theater and we won the talent show

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Speaker 1: and the prize was you got to make a record

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Speaker 1: with Kenny and Leon and and uh so they had

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Speaker 1: this you know, small label, Arctic Records. We went into

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Speaker 1: the sport track studio Virtue Sound Studios and uh uh

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Speaker 1: Frankie Virtue Studio and uh uh and and we made

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Speaker 1: uh we made a record. And uh, this guy Jimmy Bishop,

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Speaker 1: who was a DJ and one of the top DJs

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Speaker 1: in phil in the in w D as in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: uh picked us up and started sort of semi managing us.

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Speaker 1: And uh and you know, we had a chart record

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Speaker 1: in w D A S charts, R and B charts

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Speaker 1: and uh. Through that, I can't remember how I met Tommy.

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Speaker 1: I actually can't remember, but immediately got along with him

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Speaker 1: and I used to go and hang out and he

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Speaker 1: used to have an office at Cameo Parkway. This was

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Speaker 1: before Philadelphia National and H and I used to go

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Speaker 1: and sit there and listen to him play the piano

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Speaker 1: and come up with ideas. And uh so I certainly

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Speaker 1: learned a lot from Tommy Bell. What year are we in?

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Speaker 1: Uh sixty? Okay? The fact that you were white? Did

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Speaker 1: they see color? Were you the only white guy? Was

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Speaker 1: it accepted? Was it integrated in those days. That was

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Speaker 1: it was, it was integrated. I never I never once

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Speaker 1: had a problem with any of that stuff back in

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Speaker 1: the day, and I never have since then. So you

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Speaker 1: have a dream, you have a record, it's on the chart.

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Speaker 1: What did that feel like? I mean, it's played on

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Speaker 1: the radio. It was wild. I remember I was walking

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Speaker 1: on on Broad Street. Uh. And these kids, they're really

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Speaker 1: cool kids, like you know, it's cool Italian kids. They

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Speaker 1: look like it could have been on American dand Stand

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Speaker 1: or something. And then and they're walking down the street

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Speaker 1: and they're singing girl and I Love You and they're

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Speaker 1: like harmonizing. And I ran up to him and I said, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: that's my song, and that's my song and they went,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I get the funk out of here. You know,

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Speaker 1: So you have that one success, then what about a

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Speaker 1: follow up? Oh? I don't know. I wasn't thinking about

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Speaker 1: follow ups. I My brain wasn't. It's never been there, Bob.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not a commercially oriented person. And the

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Speaker 1: irony is that I've had such success commercially, but I

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Speaker 1: don't really care about that stuff. I don't write for

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Speaker 1: those kind of with with that in mind, Um, I

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Speaker 1: U I we made another record, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: it was called say These Words of Love. He didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything. And then I moved on and the Tempts

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Speaker 1: broke up. And then, uh, like I said, I moved on. Okay,

340
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Speaker 1: when you moved on, you know, you had the singing groups.

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Speaker 1: At what point did you form a band? And it

342
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: was more you know, rock and soul. I never really well,

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Speaker 1: I was in a bar band for a while and

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Speaker 1: that was what I quit the Temple for. And it

345
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Speaker 1: was called Paling the Profits and they were that was

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Speaker 1: the closest thing to a bar band I was ever in.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I don't know. I didn't really get along

348
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Speaker 1: with Paler that well, he's a he's a good guy,

349
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Speaker 1: but I you know, we we bumped heads. So that

350
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Speaker 1: didn't last too long. And uh then I started just

351
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Speaker 1: sort of kicking around and and and using my connections.

352
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Speaker 1: I started hanging out with uh with in Stigma Sound

353
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Speaker 1: and doing backup work, doing on the odd keyboard playing

354
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Speaker 1: and things like that, odds and ends and uh and

355
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Speaker 1: and sort of hooked up with this guy named John

356
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Speaker 1: Madera who was his One of his claim to fame

357
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: was he wrote it at the Hop okay, and you know,

358
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: and he wrote you Don't on Me with Leslie Gore

359
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Speaker 1: and one to three with Letty you know, yeah, I

360
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: mean that's that's John Madera. You know, he wrote those

361
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Speaker 1: songs and he had a production of production and publishing company,

362
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Speaker 1: and I sort of attached myself to that, and he

363
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Speaker 1: gave me a little money occasionally, and I played, you know,

364
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Speaker 1: I do sessions for like thirty bucks and stuff like that,

365
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Speaker 1: and and well I lived in a place it only

366
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Speaker 1: cost eighty five dollars a month, so it was it

367
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Speaker 1: wasn't that hard to live and uh and then I

368
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Speaker 1: uh uh yeah, the end of all that is when

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Speaker 1: I met John and we decided to play some songs

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Speaker 1: together acoustically and uh and we started playing in coffee

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Speaker 1: houses and places like that. And that's when that Okay,

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Speaker 1: when you met John and you formed men and playing

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Speaker 1: pistically was that because it was the moment the late

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Speaker 1: sixties what was going on? Because that seems to be

375
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Speaker 1: a little bit of a change from your soul background.

376
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Speaker 1: It was a change. I think that uh, meeting John,

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Speaker 1: I was the reason that I got together with him

378
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Speaker 1: is because he was involved in a scene that I

379
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Speaker 1: didn't know anything about I knew nothing about bluegrass music

380
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Speaker 1: or folk music or any of that kind of stuff.

381
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Speaker 1: It just didn't it wasn't, you know, it was invisible

382
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Speaker 1: to me. And uh, I was sort of fascinated by

383
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: it because I was still a student, you know, and

384
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Speaker 1: I was trying to expand my mind and I was learning,

385
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: trying to learn about things that I didn't know that

386
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Speaker 1: and I did gravitate the bluegrass music because it's it's

387
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Speaker 1: it's over kind of soul. I mean, bluegrass is very

388
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Speaker 1: soul for music. And we started I started listening to that.

389
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: He started turning me onto all that stuff. And that

390
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: was really how we form related in our early relationship. Musically,

391
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: was my natural what did I do, you know, my

392
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: my background, my soul thing, and and his what I

393
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: what they call these days Americana, you know, and and

394
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: mixing those two things together. Okay, you're doing this. It's

395
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: just one of the many things you're doing or you're saying,

396
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: wait a second, this is my road to success. Well,

397
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: at that point we were sort of doing both. I

398
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: was still with Gamble and Huff doing stuff. But one day,

399
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I can remember this, I had made a

400
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: decision and Kenny. He came to He came to me,

401
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: He said, do you want do you want to work

402
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: with Philadelphia International? You want to be a songwriter, you

403
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: want to be an artist? And I I said no,

404
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: I said, I think I want to move to New

405
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: York with Oates and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna

406
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: take what we do and go out of Philadelphia. I

407
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: just wanted. I wanted to expand outside of Philadelphia. I

408
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: don't know why, but I did. And so that was

409
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: a decision made and we moved to New York and

410
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: then all that other ship started. Okay, did you let

411
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: me stay? When you're in Philadelphia? What is your rep

412
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: is you? Are you known as that guy who's got

413
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: that voice or you're just one of the people. You know,

414
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: How were you perceived? Uh? Yeah, I was perceived that way,

415
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: that that guy, that guy that sings that way. Uh

416
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: I was. You know, it was a relatively small environment

417
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: and community, and uh uh yeah, I got it. I had.

418
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: I had a reputation for doing what I do. Now,

419
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: for those on the inside, they know that success is

420
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: not accidental and usually it's a matter of relationships. Working

421
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: in religious anybody's working in mand is not successful knows that,

422
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: so are you relatively a hustler? Connector to what degree?

423
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: Was John like that? What was going on? I am

424
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: a person who takes advantage of opportunities whenever I can

425
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: find them, and if they if if I feel like

426
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: they make sense to me. I'm certainly more that way

427
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: than Oates was. Okay, so you moved to New York,

428
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: no manager, no band, Where do you live? What's the

429
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: first step? Well, I did sort of have a manager. Okay,

430
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: so we'll go back to that. I I did not

431
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: get along with John Madera. Ultimately we parted company not

432
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: so well. And he but the one thing that he

433
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: did for me is he had a temporary he used

434
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: to lease his publishing out and at the time he

435
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: at least his publishing publishing out the Chapel Music up

436
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: in New York. And I went up there and with

437
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: him to go to the office one time I don't

438
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: know why, and met this kid, uh named Tommy Montola,

439
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: and ah, he was years old and he had an

440
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: office the size of a telephone booth and uh, I

441
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm not even sure if that was his office.

442
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: But anyway, he said, what's going on, you know, and

443
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: we we became sort of started talking, became friends, and

444
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: he heard what I did and he said, basically said,

445
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: why don't you move to New York City and I'll

446
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: manage you? And he was years old. Well I was

447
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: only twenty two and h and I said, Okay, I

448
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: can't stand what I'm doing, so let's go for it.

449
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: And he started pretending to be a manager. And uh.

450
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: One thing that happened that chapel, which was very useful,

451
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: is that this guy named Norm Wiser, who is his boss,

452
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: hooked hooked me up with a trip and John too

453
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: too with with a trip to the West Coast and

454
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: we went to l A and we started auditioning to people,

455
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: four people, and we uh we wound up with this

456
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: guy named Errol her mc grath who had a little

457
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: tiny label called Clean Records, and even he used to

458
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: be sort of a he had a salad of musicians

459
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: and artists and all that. And we played for him

460
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: and he said, would you like to sign to our label?

461
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: And we said yes. And then he for whatever his

462
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: reasons that this is a part behind the scenes that

463
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 1: I don't know about. Somehow that parlayed into me auditioning

464
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: for a Reef Martin and an Amen and Jerry Greenberg

465
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: U in New York City. And the next thing I knew,

466
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: Earl gave up his claim to us and I was

467
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: on Atlantic Records. Well of course, or or all ended

468
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: up running Rolling Stones Records, which was through Atlantic. Who

469
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: knows what the story was there? What year we in? Okay,

470
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: this this is about n Okay? So was it you

471
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: and John that are out there? Yeah? This is this

472
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: is a whole notes story. Tommy makes a deal with

473
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: Atlantic Records. Tommy didn't have the ability to make that question.

474
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: He was twenty one years old. No, No, this guy

475
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: Role McGrath made a deal. He roma grath said, check

476
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: these guys out. I sat down to a broken piano

477
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: and aid for a Reef Marten with with with the

478
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: flu and and and and am it And they said

479
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: you're signed, buddy. And that's how it happened. Okay, who

480
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: made the deal for you? Who? Need you have a lawyer? What?

481
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Yeah? I had a lawyer and

482
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: I can't remember his name. I did have a lawyer. Yes,

483
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: a lawyer was involved. Okay. Frequently when someone is knocked

484
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: around as much as you have. If you have any success,

485
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: somebody comes out and says, I have paper you know,

486
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: you know I had a contract those songs of mind

487
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: that happened to you at all. Yes, John Madera, John

488
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: Madera has been living off me for years. He claims

489
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 1: made claims of of uh of owning demos that I

490
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: did on my own and with John and with this,

491
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: with these guys, this guy named Tommy Sellers, we had

492
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: this kind of studio band we called Gulliver and he

493
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: put them out under Hall and Oates Record early days,

494
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: all on Oates and all that, and he never I

495
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: never saw a dime at all. And that's that story.

496
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: But yes, of course that that inevitably happens. Okay, so

497
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: you signed with Atlantic, you're making a record. We're along

498
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: the line, do you have a band or if you

499
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: ever have a band. Well, we started when we were

500
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: playing in these tiny places. It was just the two

501
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: of us, and then we we did add a drummer

502
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: and and a guy who uh played upright bass, and

503
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: and an electric bass. And so by the time we

504
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: actually had a this beginning of a record deal, we

505
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: actually had a four piece band, and we we went

506
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: in the studio with the first album with part of

507
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: the with those guys to some degree, and also a

508
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Reef studio bands, you know, various people that that he

509
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: liked to use for the Atlantic records. Okay, you moved

510
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: from Philly to New York and with Tommy's you know, instigation.

511
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: What was it like suddenly being in New York And

512
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: did you ever gain a rep in New York or

513
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: just Tommy got you to go to the West coast

514
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: we meet her in McGrath, etcetera. No, we we didn't

515
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: really move to New York until we had already signed

516
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: with Atlantic and we're we're in the process of starting

517
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: to make the first record and and so we we

518
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: were newcomers in town and uh we were in the

519
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: Atlantic studios and uh uh like that, I mean that

520
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: was we weren't really even playing in New York. We uh,

521
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: it was mostly just for recording and and then we played.

522
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: We were playing in Philadelphia, we played a few other places.

523
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: We weren't really playing a lot a lot at that

524
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: period of time. Okay, you meet John, you ultimately lived together.

525
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: You know the nature of these relationships as you kind

526
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: of grow up with people, then you grow apart you're

527
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: in you know, buses. How do you maintain a friendship

528
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: if at all? Or how do you start to argue

529
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: over you know, this ends up being over decades. Uh,

530
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it becomes sort of very similar to brothers

531
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: in my case, in John's case. You know, you get

532
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: along with your brother. Sometimes you don't get along with

533
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: your brother. You uh, you know you don't have to

534
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: be around that person, but yet you know you see

535
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: him at Christmas time? You know, hey, how you doing?

536
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: And and that's that's as much as you need to

537
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: do that kind of stuff. That's that's that's pretty much

538
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: describes my relationship with John. Uh. We we have experienced

539
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: a lot together over the years, and we've experienced a

540
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: lot separately. And time changes. Time changes things. It changes

541
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: your relationship. It doesn't change certain things, uh, brothers or brothers,

542
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: but time does change things. Okay, see him make a

543
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: record with the wreath. You know who's some of a

544
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: lot of experience and a lot of success. What was

545
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: that like? And what you learn from a reef? Everything?

546
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: I learned everything from Reef. He he was, he was unbelievable.

547
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: I I will never stop saying that I, uh, the

548
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: best thing ever happened to me was was my relationship

549
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: with Reef. He was a He was to me A

550
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: Reef and Quincy Jones are the two best producers in

551
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,479
Speaker 1: modern music. Uh. He could do anything. He could put

552
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: anything together and make it work and make it real.

553
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: His his his musical knowledge was so desparate, it was

554
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: so all encompassing, h that you couldn't throw anything at him,

555
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: No artist could throw anything at him that he didn't

556
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: have the ability to relate to and understand and and

557
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 1: and formulate into something coherent and and good. Um. He

558
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: was a real gentleman. And I had a very close

559
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: relationship with him for years and years, even after all

560
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: this stuff went down, Uh, and all the way to

561
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 1: his death. A relationship with Okay, a lot of people

562
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: say they make the first record even though you had

563
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: experience in your case, and they're kind of overwhelmed and

564
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: they let the producers steer them. Was that your experience?

565
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: Who you have so much experience you could sort of

566
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: stand up for what you wanted? Well, I I didn't

567
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: know what I wanted with a Reef and the whole

568
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: Oats record. I don't even like that record. If you

569
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: want the truth, Uh, but what I like what a

570
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: Reef did to it. That that's the best part. The

571
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: best part is a Reef of that record. Um um.

572
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: It was a It was a bunch of songs that

573
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: we had written while we were in school and all that,

574
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: and it was sort of a compilation that we decided

575
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: it was a first album, you know. So I was

576
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: I was more than happy to have somebody like a

577
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: Reef directing the show. Now, I'm not usually like that,

578
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: and I don't respond so well to autocratic producers. He

579
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: wasn't that, by the way, but uh, I was very

580
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: happy that he jumped in and made something out of

581
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: that record and out of those songs. Okay, what does

582
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: the label say when the first record is not really successful?

583
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: They didn't. It was different times. Many they they said,

584
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: don't worry about hits, just make great music. And that

585
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: was what Alma said to me, and I always respect

586
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: him for that. You know. They they believed in developing artists.

587
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: So next you make a band in luncheon at what's

588
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: the different experience there from making the first album? Well,

589
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: I we that was purpose purpose written. That was written

590
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: for that project, as I was talking about earlier, and

591
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: uh uh, it was a really to me, that was

592
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: a whole of its album. Um, there was a lot

593
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: of John's John could remat it a lot to that album,

594
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: and She's Gone is the ultimate contribution. That is the

595
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: ultimate Hall of Notts song because it was written by

596
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: all of notes and uh uh it was really really

597
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: exquisitely produced album, interestingly produced. Uh. I don't think there's

598
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: anything like it. It's a bizarre album, but in its

599
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: own way. Uh. And I'm I'm I continue to be

600
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: very proud of that album. I think that was a

601
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: great album and it and it defines whatever. And if

602
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: you want to talk about Hall and Oates, that's that's

603
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 1: the record to pay attention to. Now. Frequently when someone

604
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: writes a classic, they know it. And did you know

605
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: She's Gone was a classic? And how did you feel

606
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: about the fact that it didn't get traction at that time?

607
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody knows they read a classic until

608
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: after the fact. That's impossible to know. I knew that

609
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: I were a groups. We wrote a good song. A

610
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: reef his eyes lit up the first time I played it.

611
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: I sat down and played that that riff that I

612
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: play on the on the piano. I knew there was

613
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: something good about it, and uh I uh was what's

614
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: the word I was? I was patient enough to let it,

615
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: let the cards fall, you know. I mean the first

616
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: thing that happened was it got covered by a bunch

617
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: of people. Uh even Lou Rawls covered it, you know.

618
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: Uh Tavaris had a hint with it, um and and

619
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until Sarah smiled at anybody really focused

620
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: on it as as as a Darrel and Johns song,

621
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: although on quote underground radio and it got a lot

622
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: of play back in those days. Okay, since who owned

623
00:38:53,600 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: your publishing at that point, well that's always been a

624
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: key subject. Uh, I don't even know. I don't even

625
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: know what. I wasn't paying it. I was stupid, like

626
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: many people were stupid, and I wasn't paying much attention

627
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: to my publishing. I didn't even understand publishing back then.

628
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: When did you learn about publishing? Too late? Too late

629
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: to who owns your songs? Today? Uh? I owned them

630
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: and the other seventy yeah right now? BMG. Okay, just

631
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: so I know of the publishing such that if you

632
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: write the song, you get seventy five cents on the dollar. No,

633
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: I get period yeah, okay. And b MG does not

634
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: own it, it's just licensed to b MG. Real they

635
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: owned Okay. So out, let's assume you stop working tomorrow

636
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: only only owning only you're publishing. Is that enough to

637
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: have you make ends meet? Oh? Yeah, probably is okay?

638
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: So you make the second album, you make the third album,

639
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: At what point do you realize there's gonna be no

640
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: future in Atlantic? And how did you end up at

641
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: our c A. Well, it was it was ah, it

642
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: was more business. I again, this was more Tommy Matola

643
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: talking to people. You know, he talked to us, guy

644
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: Mike bernick Er and and and I mean I kind

645
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: of remember these names, uh at our c A and

646
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: I think they offered us a lot of money to leave,

647
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: and I think Jerry Greenberg said it's okay, we're not

648
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: it's not really it's not really clicking yet, and we'll

649
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: let it go. And I'm not quite sure how that

650
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: all went down, but that's that's sort of what happened. Well,

651
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't know to what degree you were conscious, but

652
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: at the time Our c H did not have a

653
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: good reputation for breaking acts. I didn't know ship. All

654
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: I know is they were giving us you know, Matt All,

655
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: I was incredibly ignorant, Bob. That's all I can say. Okay,

656
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,959
Speaker 1: So how did you How did you approach the first

657
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 1: album in r C A differently from how you approached

658
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: the records on Atlantic Um. I can't remember because Chris Bond,

659
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: uh oh, I was working. We had a guitar player

660
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: named Christopher Bond, and he was active when they abandoned

661
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: Legendent record and he said let me produce you and

662
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: I said okay. And it was basically he was the

663
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: band's guitar player and he was very talented guy. And

664
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: and uh uh, I don't know what else to say

665
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: about it. I wrote a bunch of songs and there

666
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 1: they are. So how did you write? Sarah Small sat

667
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: down with the piano and wrote it. It was I

668
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: was in living in an apartment street and uh I

669
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: basically it was a postcard. I mean Sandy was there.

670
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean she was in the other room probably when

671
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: I wrote it. Well, were you writing it for a

672
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: project or did you get an inspiration standing in the

673
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: shower and go I gotta run with this? Oh? Well,

674
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: I mean I totally inspirational. And then always songs are inspirational.

675
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: It just happens to be within the project. But yes,

676
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: I I was reading, I knew that I was writing

677
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: for that album, and I said, okay, here's a song.

678
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It was total inspiration. And so

679
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: let's assume you're writing for a project. You know, you

680
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: could sit in your studio and say it's from the guitar. Well,

681
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: you could wait for a bull to lightning. What is

682
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: that experience like? Or there's certain tricks you use try

683
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: to be inspired, Well tricks, There are no tricks. I

684
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: I just observe. I observed and opened my heart and

685
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: and and that's how things happen. And that's as simple

686
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: as that. It's it's it's it's not it's anti intellectual.

687
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: Well two things. What happens if hey, what happens? If

688
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: it's not coming, I walk away. I just move on.

689
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I don't be laboring. Okay, do

690
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: you ever say this isn't working, so let me go

691
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: to a movie, let me go out for a drive,

692
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: and maybe that'll loosen me up. Well, yeah, I don't

693
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: even sit down with the idea that I'm going to

694
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: do anything. I usually it's an inspiration and I walk

695
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: over to the guitar, walk over to a keyboard, and

696
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: and and make something happen. It isn't that I sit

697
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: there and like a typewriter and say, okay, well this

698
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: is working, and this isn't working. It's it's working because

699
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: I walk over to the keyboard now and one of

700
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: these projects. Did you ever find that you weren't inspired

701
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: enough before the recording date hit? No? No, I always

702
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: I always rest to the occasion. Uh. The results aren't

703
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: always what I was hoping for or whatever, but but

704
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 1: I I rested the occasion. I always do. So how

705
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: did you meet the Allen sisters? I met Sarah Allen

706
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia? Uh, actually John introduced me to her. Johnny

707
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: used to like to walk around and he still probably

708
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: does that, and uh, you know, on the streets and

709
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: just say a lot of people and uh, Sandy Allen,

710
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: Sarah Allen, who was living around the corner. Not to

711
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: my knowledge, she was just out of college. She was

712
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: a charter she worked for Charter Airlines, and uh, she

713
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: was in and out of town, you know. And she

714
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: came over to the house one day and I met

715
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: her and I said, no, you know, and we eventually

716
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: we did something clicked, and uh we wound up living

717
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: together and uh we trying to remember we didn't live

718
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: together Philadelphia. We that was right around the time when

719
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: I was moving to New York and we we shared

720
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: that apartment on eighty two Street, and her sister lived

721
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: in Chicago. She was a la kid and uh I

722
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: met her around that time. Family stuff, and and we

723
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: grew very close, all the three of us, and uh

724
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 1: and and Joanna moved to uh the East Coast, and

725
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: we were all sort of hanging out together and it was, uh,

726
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was really quite nice. I mean, uh,

727
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: like I said, John, I was just a kid, and

728
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: uh but she was a very eager to learn kid.

729
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: She was really a talented musician. I have to say,

730
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: she was really talented. Okay, now you've been married, how

731
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: did you decide to get married? Is your work? As

732
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: things are kind of bouncing off the walls before. So

733
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: that was that was I look at that as kids stuff,

734
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, as you know the error I grew up in.

735
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: You went study and you got married, you know, I mean,

736
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: this girl, it was it was a school school stuff,

737
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: and uh, we quickly learned that we weren't going to

738
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: last you know it was we were just kids, and uh,

739
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: it lasted like two and a half years or something

740
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: like that. How did it end imicably? It did just

741
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of who and in the fifty decade, five decades

742
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: fifty years since then, have any contact or never seen her?

743
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: I haven't seen her in decades. Okay, So how do

744
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: you end up writing songs with the Allan system? Well

745
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: it started on the silver album. I had this song

746
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. And uh,

747
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean Sandy was around. You know when we say

748
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: Sandy is Sarah? You know? And uh, uh she was

749
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: around just as we're there is her birthday? Sandy or Sarah?

750
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: And how did one day come? The name is Sarah

751
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: Allen and and she everybody calls her Sandy that knows

752
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 1: her any reason, any reason? Why do we know she's

753
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: been Sandy is says she was a kid. Okay, so

754
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 1: you're sitting around continue there, So anyway, I'll use Sandy

755
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: now because I know that everybody knows who Sarah is.

756
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: And uh, and she used to just sit around and

757
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: well she'd be there, you know, in the house we

758
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: were I've right in the living room, you know, and uh,

759
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: she started contributing things, and she's in that song. You know,

760
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter anymore. She contributed to the song, and

761
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: I went, oh, okay, well, she actually has something interesting

762
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: to say here. And in those days she didn't. It

763
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 1: was it was not anything official, and she didn't really

764
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: write with me very much in those days. I can't

765
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: remember when she actually started really collaborating or co writing

766
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: or throwing lyrics out. I can't remember which song would

767
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: have been the first one other than that one. Uh.

768
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: But in the in the late around and well, all

769
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: those eighties songs is when it really came into fruition

770
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: and she was really in the middle of all that

771
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: and and really contributing a lot. Uh. And as far

772
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: as Joanna goes, Janice the first, the first song I

773
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: ever wrote with Janna. She was that at that time,

774
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: she was living where the parents had no no with

775
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: the parents. She was living in l A. And Uh.

776
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: She had the idea of a song called kiss on

777
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: my list, and it was a first song I ever

778
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: wrote with her. She's twenty and and I sat down

779
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: whether to a world or her piano she had in

780
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: her little living room, and I started playing those chords

781
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: and and and she started. You know, we we literally

782
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: wrote the song together. And I wrote it because she

783
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: says she wanted to be an artist, and I said, well,

784
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: let's write a song for you. And I did that song,

785
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: and I went back to New York and made it.

786
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: I did a four track demo of it, and that's

787
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: what you hear. That's the four track demo. Yeah, oh

788
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: really kissing. Okay, let's go. Let's go back to the

789
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: silver album. So Sarah Smile as a hit, and in

790
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: the wake of that, She's Gone is released and as

791
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: a hit too. What was your experience? Sarah Smile had

792
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: an amazing and and somehow appropriate beginning. We were we

793
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: had released that was the third third single that that

794
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: r c A released on on the Silver album, and

795
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: we were in Germany. We were in Germany touring and

796
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: somebody said, in Ohio on the on the black stations

797
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: in Ohio, suddenly they're planning Sarah Smile. I think it

798
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: was it started in Dayton or Acron or somewhere like that,

799
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: I can't remember. And Uh, it suddenly started spreading all

800
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: over into all the black stations, and we had it.

801
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: We had a hit on R and B radio. Uh

802
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: and it was like, whoa, this is happening, and it

803
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: really was word of mouth. It was one of those

804
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: things that spread like wildfire. And then then uh, then

805
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 1: pop radio what I call white radio star at that time,

806
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: started playing it and it became this giant year. And

807
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: but it all started in the black community. I mean, uh,

808
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: Sarah Smile was was generated from that world, which again

809
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: I find to be appropriate to the song and to

810
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: my career in life. So that's successful. She's gone as successful.

811
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: How does that change your confidence and outlook? Well, I

812
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: figured we had some figure, we had some ability to

813
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: to stick around for a while. I mean, I didn't

814
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: have any master plan, but I thought, okay, well it's working.

815
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: Something's working. Now we can go out and tour. You know,

816
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: now we can play we have songs to play for

817
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: people that they want to hear. And it was, um,

818
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: it was the beginning, you know, it was the beginning.

819
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: It validated what I was doing, and that's encouraging. Validation

820
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: is really an important thing because it makes you more

821
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: confident what you're doing. Okay, so that record, how does

822
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: the bigger than both of the album come together? That

823
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: was another Cris Bond record and we did it, and

824
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: we decided, well, he was living in California and we

825
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: decided to go out there and do it. Uh and

826
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: it was uh yeah, that's what I'm That's all I

827
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: could say. It was a California record, and the musicians,

828
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: the sidemen that we're on it were a lot of

829
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: the l A players. Okay, so how did your right,

830
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: rich girl? Okay, let's we'll backtrack a little bit and

831
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm back at street. UM in my apartment, same keyboard,

832
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: I wrote Sarah smile on UM. Sandy had a old

833
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: boyfriend came over from uh Ohio and uh he was

834
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: you know, this was a mid seventies, early seventies. Everybody

835
00:52:54,400 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: was high as motherfucker, you know, and he was Let's see,

836
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: I think it's I think his father had a fast

837
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: food chain or something like that. I'm not even I'm

838
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: a little vague on all that. But anyway, he in

839
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 1: my in my perception, he was a rich He was

840
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: a rich guy. You know, he came from a rich

841
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: he came from a rich family. And uh so he

842
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: he left and uh, he was acting kind of strange.

843
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: I mean, he was a good guy, but I it

844
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: gave me, gave me the inspiration, and I sat down

845
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: as he left. I went, he's a rich guy and

846
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: he's gone too far because he knows it. Don't bad

847
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: it anyway, And I wrote it about rich guy and

848
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: then I U I said, no, that doesn't sound right.

849
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: I can't write a song called rich Guy, So I

850
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: changed the Rich Girl. Did you know as you were

851
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: writing it how successful it would be? Uh? No, no,

852
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: definitely not. So you cut it in l A. You

853
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: got a finished version. You still have no idea how

854
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: successful would be. I think it's the rare person and

855
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: in my entire career, and I've had a lot of

856
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: sucking success, you know, commercially, I never was sure. Everything

857
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: is a surprise. Everything is surprised. Sometimes songs that I

858
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: thought we're gonna be hits were zero, and sometimes I

859
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: thought songs okay, whatever, but became it. It's you never know, man,

860
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: you can't tell. And a lot of that has to

861
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: do with things that are out of my control, has

862
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: to do with the fucking Paola and you know, record

863
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: business in a level ship, Okay. I vividly remember hearing

864
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: Rich Girl the first time and having to go by

865
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 1: the album, which was great. Needles to say that becomes

866
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: an iconic hit. How does life change for you? Uh,

867
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: it didn't really change. It was just more the same. Uh,

868
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: you cant understand something. Two. Tommy Montola was a very

869
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: controlling human being. I think anybody that knows anything about

870
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: Tommy Montola's history, he liked to keep things under his control.

871
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: He didn't like things to get out of control. He

872
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: didn't like things to get too high or too low. Uh.

873
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: And you were sort of in a bubble, uh, asked

874
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 1: Mariah Carey. Uh, you were in a bubble if you

875
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: were controlled by Tommy Montola. And Uh, it wasn't conducive

876
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: to highs and you know, major major highs or realizing

877
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: where you were what you were doing. All I knew

878
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 1: that I was a road musician. I was out playing

879
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: on the road and then I was in the studio

880
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: writing songs. At what point, if any, did you start

881
00:55:52,600 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: to see some money about five years ago? Really? What

882
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: changed five years ago? Which what change was? I got it.

883
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: I got the right manager for the first time in

884
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: my life. And Jonathan Wilson, he was a PR guy

885
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: and now he's your manager. How did that come together? Well?

886
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: He was PR guy, and I realized that we had

887
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 1: a rap war and and and an understanding of each other.

888
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: And he had an instinct an instinct, and I ran

889
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: with it and UH made it, made a major decision

890
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: in my life and John's life, and uh and and

891
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: never looked back. And I've never been felt more justified

892
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: in doing it. And what is John done differently from

893
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: the people before? Let me let my instincts drive the bus. Okay,

894
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: so you have this major success, Just one thing, one

895
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: ly come there which always sticks out for me? Earth

896
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: shoes Chicago Blues. Was that yours? Or was that John's? No,

897
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: it's mine? So what I mean earth shoes for a

898
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: big deal that. Remember, you know a lot of people

899
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: write songs. They don't like to put specific names. And

900
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: you remember where that came from, if at all, it's

901
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: a long time ago specific names to what you put

902
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: earth shoes in the song? Oh earth shoes? Well, I

903
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: couldn't think of I was thinking of all the different things,

904
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: uh that that you could uh, all the opposites that

905
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: you could think of it. It didn't matter, because you

906
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: just have to follow your instincts. Do what you want,

907
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: be what you are. You know, do you believe in

908
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: hot cars, leather bars? And movie stars. Do you believe

909
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: in earth shoes? Chicago Blues? What do you know? It's

910
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: it's yeah, like that. I wrote that song. By the way,

911
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: John didn't read that song. Okay, if the credits are

912
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: such that, I didn't want to make an assumption. Okay,

913
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: you're incredibly hot, then you get cold. Do you feel

914
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: that you're getting cold and nothing seems to be working? No,

915
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: I don't. I felt that first of all, the late

916
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: seventies were a bizarre time. They were a bizarre time

917
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: societally and a bizarre time musically. And I was caught

918
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: in the crossfire. Uh I was. I look at that

919
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: as as as as au opened up an opportunity to me,

920
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: and uh I uh that's when I that's when I

921
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: started working with Robert Fripp and uh and and did

922
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: those albums that I did with with him, and and

923
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: started being more involved with in that world. And uh

924
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: that opened my whole, that whole that expanded my life

925
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: to be quite a degree and allowed and allowed me

926
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: to get to the next stage. It was a transitional period.

927
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: How did you meet Fripp and what you learned from Frip?

928
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: I learned that you could have douce that my my

929
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: sense of uh spontaneity and and and and and let

930
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: anything's happen uh uh quickly and on the spot. And

931
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: I that there are there were people that could roll

932
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: with that and and and and and expand upon it,

933
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: and you could have that kind of interaction creatively. Uh.

934
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: Robert is like that. We we we created that ship

935
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. I mean, I I just came up.

936
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: He would just play a guitar riff, and I would

937
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: start seeing whatever came into my mind. And uh and

938
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: a lot of those songs are like that. I mean

939
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: some songs are more structured than that, but a lot

940
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: of it did come that way. And uh we my

941
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: the Sacred Songs album happened. We made that album in

942
00:59:54,440 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: about six weeks start to finish, and u uh and

943
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: and the Exposure album, which I did the whole album

944
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 1: when you know, saying all that wrote wrote us, saying

945
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: almost all the songs. Um that that didn't take much longer.

946
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it. Um. But it's that sense of

947
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: spontaneity that I and and and and freedom, freedom and

948
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: joy and all those things. That's that's what I got

949
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: from working with Robert. Okay, how did you end up

950
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: working with David Foster was that your choice are foisted

951
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: upon you. It was sort of foisted David that we

952
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: were his second project. He was again, he was a kid.

953
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: He was twenty two. Uh, and he had I forget

954
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,919
Speaker 1: who he had done first, was an earth Wind of Fire.

955
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: Maybe it was earth Word Fire, which is a hell

956
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: of the beginning. Uh, or maybe it was the Sons

957
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: of Champlain. I don't know whatever I'm battling. Um I

958
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call it foisted because he was suggested and uh,

959
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: I thought that he was interesting and I met him

960
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: and and and he had a very strong personality as

961
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: you can imagine, and uh he was he had very

962
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: strong opinions musically. But yeah, he was a kid, so

963
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: he was unformed. And uh we uh we. We went

964
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: to California and we made a couple of records. Okay,

965
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: as I say, these records are not really big successes,

966
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: like bigger than both of us. And the next thing

967
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: I know, you're playing clubs and you put out a

968
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: live album. I certainly went to the rocks you to

969
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: see you from the inside. There's no understanding that, wow,

970
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: this is going in the wrong direction. We need a hit.

971
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was that we ever said

972
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: it's going in the wrong direction, But I think that

973
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: the idea that we needed to hit, especially in the

974
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: early eighties or ninety or whatever, was certainly on, you know,

975
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: in our minds. Uh uh. If it wasn't my mind,

976
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: it was, it was certainly in Matola's mind. Uh And uh, yeah,

977
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: like that, I mean, but then I don't know. I

978
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: wrote a bunch of songs, then they became his. Okay,

979
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: So how do you end up producing yourself? And whose

980
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 1: idea is it to cover you've lost that love and feeling.

981
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: I thought that the key, I thought that the key

982
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: to some kind of success was for me to produce

983
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: the well I go, I have to include John in this,

984
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: for me and John to produce the album ourselves, because

985
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: I just felt that nobody really understood what we were

986
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 1: doing other than ourselves. And uh that came especially after

987
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: working with David, who is a very talented guy. We

988
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: all knew that, and but he had his own opinions

989
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: and and he didn't necessarily see music the same way

990
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: as I did. Uh. So that was that was the

991
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: important step, is producing ourselves. And uh uh And as

992
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: far as who you also love feel we had we

993
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: had done the whole album and we felt that we

994
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: needed something else to a round out the album. And

995
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: I happened to be in the Mud Club in New York.

996
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: That was one of those days when everybody went to

997
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: mud club and uh and and they played in the

998
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: room they were playing you lost that love of feeling,

999
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, that's an interesting thing, you

1000
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: know what to duo. Maybe we should just like sing

1001
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: do a modern version of that song. Uh. And that's

1002
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,479
Speaker 1: and we the next we were in the Electric Ladies

1003
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: studios and I think it was like the next day.

1004
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: We went in there and we cut it. And we

1005
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: cut that song in about three hours and U there

1006
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: it is, so tell me the story if you make

1007
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: my dreams. Uh, well, there's not a whole lot of

1008
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: story other than I was sitting in my apartment in

1009
01:03:55,320 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: h in the village and uh and I I came

1010
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: up with that. I had a my working instrument of

1011
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: those days was a c a Yamaha CEP thirty and

1012
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned that because of the distinct sound of it,

1013
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: and it's that honky kind of strange, unique sound. And

1014
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: I just started playing that riff at where I didn't,

1015
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, and uh, I started singing something over it,

1016
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: and uh uh there was you know, I and I

1017
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: you make my dreams. And I thought to myself that

1018
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: that's that's lame. You make my dreams come true. And

1019
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 1: and I realized that I tried to think around it

1020
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 1: and outthink myself, and I want to no that, let's

1021
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: just stick with the original thought. It's it's it's directed.

1022
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: It is what it is. You make my dreams come true.

1023
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: And then I beside I was going to offset that

1024
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 1: with a slightly more flower flower um h verse lyric.

1025
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: And if you listen to those lyrics, there a lot

1026
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: more high blown than you make my dreams come true? Right, So,

1027
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: now you have unbelievable success with this album. You have

1028
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: three hits. That's gotta feel good. And what do you

1029
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: think about going into the next record. We were really

1030
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: in a whirlwind at that point. We were we were

1031
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: on the road, we were experiencing immediate success. We were

1032
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: all over the world. Uh we were. If we weren't

1033
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: all over the world, we were in the studio making

1034
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 1: the next record. It was a very active time and

1035
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: with not a whole lot of time to reflect or

1036
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 1: understand what was going on around us? Uh? The old,

1037
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 1: the old cliche I of the hurricane. Uh was pretty

1038
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: much the way to describe. Okay, I can't go for that,

1039
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: Oh can do. What's the story there? I we were

1040
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 1: doing the privatized album right yeah, and and uh I was.

1041
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: It was sort of after hours and I I had

1042
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: this cord crappy little organ and uh and I started

1043
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: I turned on and I had and I had a

1044
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: thing called the rolling COMPUVERYTHM, which is the most rudimentary

1045
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 1: drum machine that ever was built. And uh, I pressed

1046
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: rock and roll one boom Dick Dick boom, you know

1047
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: that beat, and I started playing boom but at on

1048
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: on the organ and uh and then I started playing

1049
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: in the right hand in it, and uh, I said,

1050
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I think I have something here, and

1051
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: uh I I I John was packing. He was He

1052
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 1: was still there and he was packing his guitar. I said,

1053
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: you know, John, come in plug it, just play play

1054
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 1: exactly what I say to you. Play bump bump up

1055
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: bump bomb right here. He was right there, Okay, bompopo

1056
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: bomb and he played exactly what I dictated to him.

1057
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 1: And I had a track that was it. That was

1058
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 1: the track. And then I went in the in the room,

1059
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: in the vote, in the in the control room, and

1060
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: said give me a microphone and I started saying, Hey,

1061
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: that right, and I started doing that and that was

1062
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: That is literally how the song was created. And then

1063
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: how did the ultimate lyrics come together through my frustration? Okay,

1064
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 1: so in the midst of all this, MTV launches and

1065
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: you make videos. This is in the rudimentary era of

1066
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: videos at first private eyes, etcetera. But also suddenly which

1067
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: we learn, MTV makes people bigger than ever. So what

1068
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 1: was your experience with m DV like it not like

1069
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: and then you end up having a long career there. Well,

1070
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: I had a love hate relationship with it. I I

1071
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 1: was there, as you said, I was there from the

1072
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 1: the beginning, like the first bloody day, and uh, nobody

1073
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:20,560
Speaker 1: really knew what they had and they didn't really know

1074
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: what they were doing that they didn't have they had

1075
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 1: no scripting, the VJs. Uh, they would just give Marth

1076
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: Quinn or you know who, you know, you name it

1077
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: two hours, just go here's here's play this. When that's

1078
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: a bat Pat Benatar, play this would played that you

1079
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 1: know and you and just talk, and I have to

1080
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,879
Speaker 1: hand it to these well, they were like radio DJs.

1081
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: They would just talk and uh, very early on they

1082
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: asked me to do it, and both both on my

1083
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: own and with John uh to to be VJs and

1084
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: we would just do anything just to pass the time.

1085
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember one time I had t bone

1086
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 1: on their cooking cooking eggs or something in between songs.

1087
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was all kinds of It

1088
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: was anything goes. It really was anything goes, and that

1089
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 1: was great. It was like the early days of television

1090
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: when you hear about Sid Caesar and you know, and uh,

1091
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 1: you know those days. It reminds me a lot of that.

1092
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 1: It was nobody really had any rules. So they didn't

1093
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,560
Speaker 1: because it was a brand new thing. So uh, it

1094
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: was a really heady time, really a really fun time.

1095
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,800
Speaker 1: But then you had to deal with the videos and

1096
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: the videos where you know, these extravaganza is generally done

1097
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: by cokeheads that did commercials, you know, uh, and and

1098
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 1: they were all always overblown and they were always ridiculous

1099
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: and they always had nothing to do with the song.

1100
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 1: And that was the part it didn't like. So there

1101
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: it is okay, but now everybody over the all over

1102
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 1: the world. Not only knows your songs, they know what

1103
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: you look like. And you could you feel that change

1104
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 1: anywhere you when people knew who you were? And was that,

1105
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, inhibiting or it was it wasn't was it inhibiting?

1106
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:08,680
Speaker 1: You know? I mean I had already experienced that to

1107
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,799
Speaker 1: some degree, but it actually my my big commercial success

1108
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: came simultaneously with that. So I can't differentiate. I don't know.

1109
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 1: All I know is that I was you know, yeah,

1110
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: it was Darryl Romania. I mean people, which you know

1111
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 1: I was. I couldn't go to Christmas shopping or do anything.

1112
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 1: I mean I I was chased down the streets and

1113
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: you know it was like the Beatles, you know that

1114
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 1: that's bullshit, you know it was. It was that that

1115
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, screaming girls and uh uh it was.

1116
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 1: It was weird. I got to say it was weird.

1117
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 1: So you have a long run of success album after

1118
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: album with hits. Did you just feel you would come

1119
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 1: up with hits or do you go into the studio

1120
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: and you say you start your project, Man, I gotta

1121
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: I gotta equal I gotta have something like that on

1122
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 1: the album. No, I have never in my I thought

1123
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 1: that way, because that is the death of anything, death

1124
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 1: of creativity. I at the back of my mind, I

1125
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 1: always tried to do my best, and I realized what

1126
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: what I what I was doing. But I wasn't writing

1127
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: songs with the idea they were gonna be hints. I

1128
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: write the best song I can think of to express

1129
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: the emotion that's going on in my head in my heart. Uh.

1130
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: And that's that's that doesn't get any farther than that, really,

1131
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's how the songs get written. So

1132
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: at the peak of your success you end up going

1133
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 1: to air a staff. How does that come together? Oh? Again,

1134
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: that was the machinations of Tommy. Uh I I didn't

1135
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,560
Speaker 1: care where I was one of the truth and and

1136
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: you know again more than I have to say, and

1137
01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 1: being insulated and isolated. Uh h and uh, I guess

1138
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 1: I don't know. Clide Clide, Jesus Clive not client. Uh.

1139
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: Clive Davids said he wanted us badly. I don't know,

1140
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 1: you know he and and he he basically gave us

1141
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: a pitch to go there. And I guess it worked.

1142
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: Worked for Alan Grubbin and Tommy Mattola and nothing to

1143
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: do with me. Clive has a great, great, a big

1144
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: reputation for meddling with the music. Did he meddle with

1145
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:41,560
Speaker 1: your music? Yes? He tried it? Did it didn't? My

1146
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: My experience with with Clive didn't really turn out very well. Uh,

1147
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: because I I don't like being told what to do

1148
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: by anybody. And I mean, I don't want to put

1149
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: Clive down, you know, but yes, he was a middler,

1150
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: and he and just what he thinks. His instincts are

1151
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily what's best for the artist. And uh, you

1152
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:10,560
Speaker 1: know I had I had one memorable meeting where I

1153
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,679
Speaker 1: walked out of the basically walked out of the meeting

1154
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 1: when he tried to get me to sing a song

1155
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: called I've Got a New Blue Suit. So you know,

1156
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: it's a bad experience all around. Clive is middling and

1157
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: you have no hits. What's going through your brain? What's next?

1158
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, I can't even remember what was

1159
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: going on. Then, you know what I I don't know.

1160
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 1: I was I was starting to think about making some

1161
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: solo records, and uh and and and moving into that

1162
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: direction for a while. And uh, I've always spent a

1163
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: lot of time in England, especially in London, and I

1164
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: decided I had a house at that time. I well,

1165
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: I had boadhouse, and I decided to move to England.

1166
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 1: So I moved to England and made a couple of

1167
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 1: records basically out of there. And uh, I'm very proud

1168
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: of it. That's what I'm promoting right now. That's I'm

1169
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 1: I'm promoting the uh excerpts from the from those albums.

1170
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,560
Speaker 1: And uh, I looked at that as it was. That

1171
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: was that was a lot of fun. The early nineties

1172
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: were great. Okay, so things keep moving on MTV changes,

1173
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 1: it becomes hip hop, you know, grunge, etcetera. Very slick videos.

1174
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 1: You make those albums when you come up for air.

1175
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:43,720
Speaker 1: What does the world look like to you? Uh? It

1176
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 1: was it when I came up for air out of

1177
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 1: my good time in London, it started going like, Okay,

1178
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: now I gotta figure out what I'm really gonna do.

1179
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: And uh, I I will say that the second half

1180
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:00,839
Speaker 1: of the nineties, I was I was looking for direction,

1181
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: I was looking for something. I was looking for whatever

1182
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 1: U Matola had left. I mean that was that. We

1183
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:09,680
Speaker 1: go back to that in that nine is when we

1184
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: parted company, just to be very specific. He ended up

1185
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 1: going from the management side to the label. Is that

1186
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: what rupture the relationship ors is something totally separate. It

1187
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: was a little a combination of both. He he he

1188
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 1: left me for Mariah and uh and I say it

1189
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: that way because that's what it was like. And uh

1190
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:33,759
Speaker 1: and uh and then at the same time he managed

1191
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,479
Speaker 1: to Uh, well, there's book has been written about it

1192
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: that he got into managed to get into the position

1193
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 1: of the head of it, of the sony and uh.

1194
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 1: Uh so we didn't really have That's when our relationship

1195
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: changed completely. And uh uh uh and I moved on

1196
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 1: and I and I went up with with somebody who

1197
01:15:56,120 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: used to work in the mental organization, and and and

1198
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 1: he was also my tour manager and he started managing

1199
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: me for quite a while until until Jonathan came on

1200
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: the scene. Okay, so prior to Mariah coming on the scene,

1201
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 1: and based on what you just said, can we say

1202
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 1: that you were number one in Tommy's book, that you

1203
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 1: trumped everything and he was thinking about you, etcetera. Oh,

1204
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 1: without a doubt, without even in shadow of a doubt.

1205
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 1: I mean he had other artists, uh, and I feel

1206
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: bad for those other artists. If you want the truth.

1207
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean one of my somebody who I think is

1208
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 1: one of the great overlooked artists as August Arnell with

1209
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: Kid Creole in the Coconuts. He was he was managing August,

1210
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 1: but he christ he you know, he had had a

1211
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: clue what to do. It lost. Yeah, And and even

1212
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: though Aggy had great success in Europe outside the United States,

1213
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 1: Tommy didn't know what to do with him. He was busy,

1214
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: busy with me basically, and you part ways. Is that

1215
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 1: the end of the relationship or do you have any

1216
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 1: contact with him thereafter? Through today? Not through today so much? Uh?

1217
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 1: We we we were in contact for many many years

1218
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:23,560
Speaker 1: after all that. Uh now nowadays we're not really so

1219
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 1: much in contact. So you come back to the States,

1220
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 1: it's the nineties, you're looking for direction. Pick up from there.

1221
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I did. I did my solo albums, two

1222
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 1: solo albums. I did an album called Marigold Sky with John.

1223
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: Decided to try a record with John, and then uh

1224
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 1: then I'm did oh I did to do It for

1225
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 1: Love album which with with John that was in England.

1226
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 1: Uh and uh then we did other things. We we

1227
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 1: did We did a Christmas album and I mean, you know,

1228
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: this all kind of runs together. Uh, it was just

1229
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 1: kind of random. I don't know. We we we didn't

1230
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: really have a focus direction either as Hall and Oates

1231
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: or as solo artists. It was sort of in between.

1232
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: It was the beginning of that is the beginning of

1233
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: of us going in two different directions and uh uh,

1234
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: but but still doing the occasional project and doing and

1235
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 1: and uh and playing live. That was when we sort

1236
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: of became a live band for real and started playing everywhere.

1237
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 1: And was that driven by a need to be on

1238
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: stage or a need for money? Both? You gotta make money.

1239
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: You gotta you have to support a band, and you

1240
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:50,879
Speaker 1: have to support yourself. Uh. You know, I'm like anybody

1241
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 1: you have a job, and uh uh as far as

1242
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:01,960
Speaker 1: need to do, I do. I need it. I I've

1243
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: been doing in my whole life. So I don't know

1244
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: if you call that a need or not. But I

1245
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,639
Speaker 1: do live to perform. I love to perform. I'm I'm

1246
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: a performing animal. Okay. At what point in this story

1247
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: do you get into construction projects? Ah, that's that's a

1248
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 1: parallel story. I've been doing that forever. I grew up

1249
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 1: in a in a in a strange family of there

1250
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: were either musicians and or people who worked in Like

1251
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 1: my grandfather was a stonemason and brick layer. When I

1252
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,839
Speaker 1: say brick layer, he wasn't. He built houses, He built chimneys.

1253
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: He was, he was. He was a specialist. And uh,

1254
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: I used to live on construction sites. My father built

1255
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: the house that I grew up in. Um. I I've

1256
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 1: always been around people who work with their hands, and

1257
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 1: carpenters and and and and and and specialists. And I

1258
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 1: grew up in Chester County, which is uh, you know,

1259
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 1: and in the midst of the eighteenth century basically, uh,

1260
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:22,519
Speaker 1: that's you know. My family houses are those kind of houses,

1261
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, antique structures, and uh, I've always had a

1262
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: love of history. And let me thank the first. The

1263
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:32,840
Speaker 1: first house I renovated was that one I told you

1264
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 1: about that I would pay eighty five dollars a month

1265
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 1: for it was a late eighteenth century house row house

1266
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia that was completely destroyed. And I went in

1267
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 1: there and started renovating and painting and doing everything and

1268
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 1: fix that house up to live in. And then the

1269
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:52,679
Speaker 1: second one. I've done so many houses, it's just over

1270
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: the years, uh uh I've done many many historic houses,

1271
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: and I really like doing it. I know how to

1272
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:05,639
Speaker 1: organize it, I know how to I understand the history

1273
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: of it. I understand how things, how things work. I

1274
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 1: understand construction. I understand all those things, and I really

1275
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 1: enjoy it. It's sort of an avocation. The house that

1276
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm doing this in right now is the house that

1277
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: I completely renovated from scratch, Hies House. Okay, so they're

1278
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: always existing houses. You never want to build from scratch.

1279
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 1: Oh No. The house that I did the Life of

1280
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:37,639
Speaker 1: Darrell's House show, and I did, I took two houses

1281
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 1: down in in uh in uh, near Hartford, Connecticut, and

1282
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:46,680
Speaker 1: moved them to Dutchess County, New York, uh from the

1283
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,720
Speaker 1: and and then and built them from below the foundation up.

1284
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: So I reconstructed those houses out of uh, you know,

1285
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 1: out of the original materials. Okay, it's let's just say,

1286
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 1: this is what you like to do. Are you always

1287
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:10,639
Speaker 1: looking for a project? How do you find the house? Well?

1288
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:14,559
Speaker 1: I'm always sort of in a projects. I don't think

1289
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 1: there's been much time that I haven't been under construction

1290
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: or in a situation where this construction going on under

1291
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 1: my under my direction. But as I say, what do

1292
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 1: you decide? How do you find the projects to work on? Well,

1293
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,840
Speaker 1: a lot of in in well just about all the

1294
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 1: cases I was there were houses that I want up

1295
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: living in for at least a while. Okay, so you

1296
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,240
Speaker 1: say you really know how to do it. Let's say

1297
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 1: we find a classic house seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds in

1298
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 1: need to repair. Walk me through the steps of bringing

1299
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 1: it up to your standards. Well, it depends what it needs.

1300
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:57,679
Speaker 1: I mean, let's let's talk about the worst case scenario.

1301
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 1: What what might that be? That might be something that

1302
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: needs foundational work, needs detail work. Uh need you know

1303
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: to what degree can you do with your friends? To

1304
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 1: what degree you need to outside contract stuff like? Okay? Sure? Uh, well,

1305
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 1: I mean you need specialists because that's the whole thing.

1306
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:19,840
Speaker 1: That's one of the things I like about it is

1307
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,639
Speaker 1: that that all these people are artisans and they do things.

1308
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 1: I like to do things in a in a way

1309
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 1: that we're done originally. I don't like to bring things

1310
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: in unless I have to, uh that are that are

1311
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 1: that are modern additions to it? For example, this house

1312
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 1: and I'm in I had foundational issues the wall over

1313
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 1: by the not this room, and then the other side

1314
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 1: of the house was starting to cave in around where

1315
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: the chimney stack is and I had to shore that up.

1316
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 1: I had to use I beams and I had uh

1317
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:59,080
Speaker 1: re restructure the wall to uh to shore up the foundation.

1318
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,200
Speaker 1: Uh some I had had columns. I had to uh

1319
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:07,840
Speaker 1: you know that weren't there before. Um, Well, there you go.

1320
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 1: That's that's how you fix it. You're need to say,

1321
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:15,680
Speaker 1: you're a working musician. To what degree are you supervising

1322
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 1: all this? Well, it depends on the project. I was

1323
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 1: very much supervising the Flinthill project because it was I

1324
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 1: was there as to do with proximity this house. It's

1325
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,560
Speaker 1: been taken me forever to do. It started when I

1326
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: had the TV show and I was that's when this

1327
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 1: this house that I'm sitting and started that project and

1328
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:40,519
Speaker 1: I'm now just finishing it because I've been working so

1329
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,840
Speaker 1: much that I couldn't be around physically, and so it's

1330
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: taken years to uh uh to to bring to completion. Um.

1331
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 1: But I find that you have to use good g C.

1332
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: You have to have a sympathetic GC, somebody who really

1333
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 1: understands antique architecture. And I have an architect who is

1334
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 1: my friend as well as uh she's an amazing uh uh.

1335
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,959
Speaker 1: She has an amazing ability to work with an antique

1336
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 1: projects and uh and I trust her. I trust her.

1337
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: She doesn't she does the heavy lifting literally uh and

1338
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:20,680
Speaker 1: uh you know does does the drawings and all that.

1339
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,679
Speaker 1: But but you know, it's it's all about my decision making.

1340
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 1: Anybody's involved with construction know that it's done by individuals

1341
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 1: and it's never perfect. To what degree have this Has

1342
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,720
Speaker 1: this been your experience and to what degree do you

1343
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 1: let things go? To what degree do you make them

1344
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 1: do it over? Now? Well, towards the end of one

1345
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: era of this project that I'm in, uh, I had

1346
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 1: a GC walk off the job. He was a jerk.

1347
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: He basically I I turned him onto some people and

1348
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 1: instead of any any any left me for those people.

1349
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 1: And you know, that's one of those kind of and

1350
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 1: so I was stuck. I was stuck without a g C.

1351
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,800
Speaker 1: I was stuck with that and uh uh and I

1352
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 1: was in the middle of it was a very difficult

1353
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 1: at the time. I was not getting along with my

1354
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 1: with my wife and and uh, I don't want to

1355
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 1: get into that, but uh, I had to hire an

1356
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:25,719
Speaker 1: architect and I hired a g C from the area

1357
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 1: that I really wasn't that familiar with, and uh and

1358
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 1: in a construction company to to sort of keep the

1359
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 1: project going. And they acted like they knew what they

1360
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 1: were doing, but they didn't know what they were doing.

1361
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:40,640
Speaker 1: And then I wound up having to go on the

1362
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 1: road to pay for all this and uh uh. Anyway,

1363
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:50,720
Speaker 1: long story short, that's when they started doing funked up

1364
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:53,200
Speaker 1: things and I came back and said, what is this?

1365
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:55,800
Speaker 1: And I did make them rip things out. I'm still

1366
01:26:55,840 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: in the process of some of the things of undoing

1367
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 1: some of them at work. So that happens, so you

1368
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 1: enjoy it. But when the process is done and you

1369
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 1: sell it, are you in the black or the red? Uh?

1370
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:19,040
Speaker 1: Depends depends on the time. Uh depends on the real

1371
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: estate time. Right now, I would be in the right now,

1372
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 1: I would be in the in the black because it's

1373
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:26,680
Speaker 1: a good time for real estate. But if I like

1374
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 1: the Flynn Hill project, it was sort of a financial

1375
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: disaster because I was doing it all. It was my

1376
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 1: my major one, my my big work, right and uh,

1377
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:47,400
Speaker 1: magnus opus and and and uh and I completed it.

1378
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: When right when the real estate when when everything fell

1379
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:59,560
Speaker 1: to pieces when when nothing was worth anything. So that

1380
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:04,759
Speaker 1: wasn't such a great result, but but the project itself

1381
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 1: was was amazing. So how many houses you own right now? Oh? Well,

1382
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:16,639
Speaker 1: I this one that I didn't. I have a studio

1383
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 1: house that's about a couple of miles away, and I

1384
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: have a family house in London. Okay, So tell me

1385
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:28,600
Speaker 1: about the genesis of life from Darrell's house. I just

1386
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:33,160
Speaker 1: had And it was an idea, a simple, simple idea

1387
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:40,600
Speaker 1: that I could bring the world into my into me

1388
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:45,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to me going to the world. And at

1389
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 1: the time, the Internet wasn't being used for entertainment in

1390
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: any way. It was being used for communication and information,

1391
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:01,920
Speaker 1: uh and things like that and commercialization. But nobody even

1392
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:06,559
Speaker 1: really had anything that resembled an entertainment show, at least

1393
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:09,879
Speaker 1: nothing important, especially not a music show. So I decided

1394
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 1: I was going to do a music show, and I

1395
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 1: got somebody to fund it, which is super important changed

1396
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: my life, and uh, we started doing it. We just

1397
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 1: did it. It was it was all very real, and uh,

1398
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: I said, you know, no audience, Let's just get it

1399
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:32,600
Speaker 1: in a room and with people and show show the

1400
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 1: world what it's like to be in the inter sanctum

1401
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 1: of of you know, musical creativity and interaction and uh.

1402
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:46,040
Speaker 1: And one of my first guests with Smokey Robinson, I

1403
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 1: called in my cards, you know, I called in my

1404
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 1: I was just on the phone with people, and Smokey

1405
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 1: unbelievably came up to Duchess County, you know, which is

1406
01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:00,800
Speaker 1: not that closed anywhere, and U he came up and

1407
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:03,680
Speaker 1: it was amazing, and uh, that was one of the

1408
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:07,240
Speaker 1: first shows. But and it just went from there and

1409
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 1: people really responded to it, and I'm so happy. It

1410
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:13,680
Speaker 1: made me so happy. It's it's the happiest I've ever

1411
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 1: been is doing is doing these these shows and that

1412
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 1: in that series. It fulfilled me. It defined me really,

1413
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 1: It's it shows people what I do, what I'm like,

1414
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:27,519
Speaker 1: what I'm like as a person, what I and what

1415
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:31,920
Speaker 1: I do in life, what I'm good at. And uh, yeah,

1416
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 1: so I got some new shows coming. Okay, that's giving

1417
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 1: my next question. So you know you put them out

1418
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 1: of the web series. As you say, the buzz was

1419
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:43,680
Speaker 1: unbelievable and you were way ahead of everybody else. Then

1420
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:47,799
Speaker 1: ultimately you've gotta deal for television. So what's the status

1421
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 1: of it now? Well, you know, everything changes now I don't.

1422
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: I have I have regained the funding, and so that's

1423
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:00,840
Speaker 1: an important part. This is not an easy show to

1424
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: do financially. And uh uh. But having said that, how

1425
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,120
Speaker 1: to put it out I'm not sure because everything changes,

1426
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:12,599
Speaker 1: I mean, how do I want to put it out now?

1427
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,240
Speaker 1: I mean I've been toying with the idea of of

1428
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:19,720
Speaker 1: just going on YouTube and putting it out that way,

1429
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, because YouTube is now a channel, a channel

1430
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 1: into itself. Uh, maybe do a combination of I don't know.

1431
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 1: I haven't found I don't know where it's spot is

1432
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 1: going to be, but it's going to be somewhere obviously.

1433
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 1: But but the thing is that it is international show

1434
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 1: and whatever I do will be I want to do

1435
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:43,639
Speaker 1: something that makes it easier for everybody around the world

1436
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:49,440
Speaker 1: to watch it. So I may use regular terrestrial television,

1437
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:53,160
Speaker 1: I might use some streaming service. I might use YouTube

1438
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know yet, or a combination thereof.

1439
01:31:57,240 --> 01:32:00,080
Speaker 1: So how many shows you plan to do? But to

1440
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 1: start with six? Next one season and then um, let's see, now,

1441
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:09,479
Speaker 1: how expensive is it to do a show? Well, it

1442
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:13,160
Speaker 1: costs money, but it's not the production. The production is

1443
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:16,360
Speaker 1: relatively well, you know, it's a little bit of money,

1444
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 1: but it's the clearances and all that stuff. You know,

1445
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 1: there's a lot of money. You have to pay a

1446
01:32:22,320 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, you know, artists and publishers,

1447
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:27,400
Speaker 1: and you know, there's a lot a lot involved in it,

1448
01:32:27,479 --> 01:32:30,880
Speaker 1: a lot of legal things and a lot of machinations.

1449
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:32,840
Speaker 1: And it was hard to get going in the beginning

1450
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:34,839
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of people who didn't understand

1451
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:36,360
Speaker 1: what I was doing, and they thought that I was

1452
01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:40,200
Speaker 1: trying you know, they were some people thought that I

1453
01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 1: was like Napster Jr. You know, back in those days,

1454
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 1: that I was trying to steal from the artist, not

1455
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 1: enhance the artists career. So I had a lot of

1456
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:55,360
Speaker 1: of of resistance to getting this stuff started. But I

1457
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 1: will say that my manager and me figuring it out

1458
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 1: how to do it and at this late day, because

1459
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 1: you've done so many At first you call in your cards,

1460
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 1: how do you select guests? Now? Well, I still call

1461
01:33:11,160 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 1: in cards. Um. I have some feelers out right now

1462
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 1: that that are interesting ones. Um. But a lot of

1463
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 1: it comes down to scheduling. Most artists have lives and

1464
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 1: they work and then they're on the road and they're

1465
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:31,880
Speaker 1: not in this necessarily in anywhere near upstate New York,

1466
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:34,760
Speaker 1: you know. So there's a lot of that that that

1467
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:37,960
Speaker 1: that that's actually one of the biggest factors in trying

1468
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:39,800
Speaker 1: to get people to figure out how they're going to

1469
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 1: actually be able to do the show. Most people say, yes,

1470
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,080
Speaker 1: that's the funny thing, not funny and it's the happy thing. Uh.

1471
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 1: People say yes, you man, I love that show. I

1472
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:51,599
Speaker 1: watch it all the time. And I said, Okay, when

1473
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 1: can you do it? Well, you know, I'm doing a

1474
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:56,160
Speaker 1: tour that maybe next year, you know that kind of thing.

1475
01:33:57,840 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 1: So will it be done in the same space, with

1476
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:05,599
Speaker 1: same format, with cooking, etcetera. I think, so, I'm going

1477
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:10,439
Speaker 1: to incorporate this house, which is different than the old house,

1478
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:14,040
Speaker 1: and I do it in my club, So I think

1479
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to do the music in the club

1480
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: and the food and conversation and dinner here in this house,

1481
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 1: which is only a couple of miles away. Now, people

1482
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:28,120
Speaker 1: always talk about owning a club and owning a bar,

1483
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,799
Speaker 1: but it is a business and it's an incredible headache.

1484
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:34,600
Speaker 1: So how did you decide to own the club and

1485
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:37,360
Speaker 1: how much of your in putting hands on attention, does

1486
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:43,560
Speaker 1: it need? Well, Luckily I have a partner and he

1487
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: has another club. He has a club in the West Coast,

1488
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:52,040
Speaker 1: and uh so he's and his his his club is

1489
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:54,160
Speaker 1: a version of the kind of club that I have,

1490
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 1: and so he understands that it started with a lot

1491
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 1: of his bringing his his cook in and things like that.

1492
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:05,240
Speaker 1: So I had a lot of help in getting it going.

1493
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: I make the creative decisions. I have a lot to

1494
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: do with the food. Uh I. Uh, you know, we

1495
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: figured out as far as the booking goes and things

1496
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,920
Speaker 1: like that. Um, and I leave the actual nuts and

1497
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: bolts financing and and those those that area to my partner,

1498
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 1: who uh, like I said, has plenty of experience in this. Uh.

1499
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:36,760
Speaker 1: I will say that we managed to somehow survive the pandemic,

1500
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 1: which was really not easy. So prior to the pandemic,

1501
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 1: is this just a labor of love or can you

1502
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:49,760
Speaker 1: make any money? Well, it's it's it's sort of a

1503
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: it's a generator, you know, it's it's it's it's I

1504
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:57,080
Speaker 1: have people from all of the world come and play there,

1505
01:35:57,280 --> 01:35:59,400
Speaker 1: and people from all the world actually come there, So

1506
01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:05,040
Speaker 1: it's become a it's become a physical shrine to whatever

1507
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 1: is the Darrel's House kind of thing and uh uh

1508
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:13,000
Speaker 1: and it's it is a labor of love. I love clubs.

1509
01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:15,639
Speaker 1: I love the idea of clubs. Clubs are where all

1510
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:20,840
Speaker 1: the good stuff happens, uh, the best music and U

1511
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:26,120
Speaker 1: I uh. And it's also the place that that I

1512
01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:28,960
Speaker 1: do my show out of. You know, it's it's it's

1513
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:31,360
Speaker 1: it's a home for me. It's the home home of

1514
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 1: the show. Uh. So it's uh, you know, it provides

1515
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: a lot of it. There's a lot of the generates

1516
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 1: out of it. Okay, just to be clear, where the

1517
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 1: original episodes were shot from live from Darrel's House. That

1518
01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:51,599
Speaker 1: is not the club. That's the house you used to own, right, Yeah,

1519
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:54,040
Speaker 1: that's the that's the Flint Hill house that I created

1520
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:59,040
Speaker 1: from scratch and you ultimately sold that when in in

1521
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 1: in about twenty you know, I don't know, I'll say something.

1522
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:11,519
Speaker 1: We're in that area, maybe I don't know. Okay, needless

1523
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:13,840
Speaker 1: to say, we're all getting older by the minute, and

1524
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,200
Speaker 1: no one gets out of here alive. You know, do

1525
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 1: you feel that at all that you know there's a

1526
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,560
Speaker 1: limited time left and you want to accomplish or you

1527
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:25,400
Speaker 1: just want to ride. What what's your perspective on aging

1528
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 1: and you know the grim Reaper. Well, my perspective is

1529
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 1: that at this time of life, it is time to

1530
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:41,680
Speaker 1: not pull punches. Do whatever it is that makes that

1531
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: fulfills for me. I'll say me do whatever it takes

1532
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:48,920
Speaker 1: to fulfill myself. What I do it, now, do it,

1533
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 1: don't funk around. You want to do something, go do

1534
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:57,840
Speaker 1: it if you can do it, uh because right that

1535
01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:00,720
Speaker 1: much of a future come on, you know. I mean,

1536
01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it until I can't do it. And uh,

1537
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:07,080
Speaker 1: I have a I'm very lucky that I have a

1538
01:38:07,439 --> 01:38:12,160
Speaker 1: pretty good jeans. My mother's ninety eight and my father

1539
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 1: was ninety six when he died, and that wasn't his fault.

1540
01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: Uh So, Um, I think I have some time left,

1541
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, and and but I'm gonna do my best

1542
01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:27,599
Speaker 1: to take advantage of that time. That's what else gotta say.

1543
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:30,760
Speaker 1: Needless to say, you started a long time ago when

1544
01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 1: music really drove the culture. He had a hit, everybody

1545
01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:36,680
Speaker 1: in the world knew it. Today, we live in a

1546
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 1: very broad culture where a number one hit reaches fewer

1547
01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 1: people than ever before. In addition, there scenes that don't

1548
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 1: seem to stream that well, but do incredible live business.

1549
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:52,120
Speaker 1: Do you keep up on hit music or you just

1550
01:38:52,200 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 1: say I'm doing what I'm doing. That's just something different. Um,

1551
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:57,880
Speaker 1: I don't keep up with anything. I don't try to.

1552
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: I use I I listen to music randomly. I'm not

1553
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:06,360
Speaker 1: a great audience, although I'm a very heartfelt audience. What

1554
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 1: I like something. I'm really a lucky person because that

1555
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 1: what you talked about, I experienced. I had a hit.

1556
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:16,680
Speaker 1: The whole world knew about it. It was that I

1557
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:21,840
Speaker 1: I benefited from that. I I made my bones on

1558
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:25,920
Speaker 1: that and and I used that for what I do now,

1559
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:30,640
Speaker 1: which is very tribal. And I I can relate to

1560
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: tribalism very well. I mean, I like having my people

1561
01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:36,679
Speaker 1: and and playing to the people that give a shit

1562
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:42,240
Speaker 1: about me. And uh that's yeah, I mean it. It's

1563
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:44,760
Speaker 1: worked out very well in my favor. I think, I

1564
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:49,760
Speaker 1: feel okay. We both came of age in the sixties.

1565
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 1: Fifties were sort of somnambulance. Sixties come along, you know,

1566
01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:56,880
Speaker 1: the boomers take over. There's a war of the generations,

1567
01:39:56,960 --> 01:40:02,519
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. Needless say, it's radically different. What do

1568
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 1: you think about today's environment? Well, we live in a dysfunctional,

1569
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 1: crashing and burning world. It's that's a whole other podcast

1570
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 1: if you want the truth. I mean, I don't even

1571
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:24,800
Speaker 1: know what to say. I'm I'm I'm a I see

1572
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:36,600
Speaker 1: this horrible, horrible disparity between mindsets and uh, that's that's uncrossable.

1573
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:43,200
Speaker 1: And I don't see things getting better. I'm a historian,

1574
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,439
Speaker 1: maybe an amateurist story, but I'm an a storian. And

1575
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:52,720
Speaker 1: uh and and I we were I see parallels. Man,

1576
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:57,720
Speaker 1: We're headed to the dark ages. Good luck. Well, we've

1577
01:40:57,880 --> 01:41:00,920
Speaker 1: believed in the sixties that use could save the world.

1578
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:04,240
Speaker 1: Does music have a role or have times changed or

1579
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 1: it never had that power? I think that there was.

1580
01:41:11,280 --> 01:41:14,320
Speaker 1: There was a time where music actually did have a

1581
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 1: lot of power. It really did. Uh, Beatles come to mind,

1582
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean you know, I mean it was

1583
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:24,080
Speaker 1: it was changing things. It was, it was, it was,

1584
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 1: it was. It drove a social movement, I think in

1585
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:31,720
Speaker 1: in in the late sixties. Uh. Now, does music have

1586
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 1: any thing, any power? No, but it can't because of

1587
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 1: what you said before, Because you can't have a hit

1588
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:42,560
Speaker 1: and everybody in the world hears it. So you have

1589
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:45,400
Speaker 1: your tribe and that's it. You know, it's it's it's

1590
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,479
Speaker 1: never going to have that kind of ability to move people.

1591
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:51,800
Speaker 1: It can't possibly. And what about legacy? Do you care

1592
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:59,360
Speaker 1: if you're remembered? You care if your songs last? Uh? Well,

1593
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 1: I'll take the John Lennon thing and says who gives

1594
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:08,760
Speaker 1: a ship after him dead? You know, I mean, do

1595
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:13,400
Speaker 1: I care? No? I caring is a funny word. Uh.

1596
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm proud of what I've done, and uh

1597
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:20,760
Speaker 1: that's that's all I can say about it. You know,

1598
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 1: I mean people could once it leaves me, it belongs

1599
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:28,200
Speaker 1: to the world. I think that's a perfect note to

1600
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:31,240
Speaker 1: end on. Darryl. I want to thank you for taking

1601
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 1: the times, very insightful, great to learn things I didn't know.

1602
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:39,719
Speaker 1: Thanks again, sure man, we could do it until next time.

1603
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:41,120
Speaker 1: This is Bob left Sex