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Speaker 1: How toy everybody.

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Speaker 2: This is Chuck here the Stuff You Should Know Podcast,

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Speaker 2: and it is Saturday. It's actually Wednesday in my real

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Speaker 2: time world, but in the future it will be Saturday

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Speaker 2: when you're listening to this, because it is my charge

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Speaker 2: to deliver it to you. A classic Stuff you Should

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Speaker 2: Know episode handpicked and curated by yours truly, and this

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Speaker 2: week we're going with a pretty good history up from

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Speaker 2: March twenty nineteen, the case of Seco and ven Zette.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 3: there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer Josh

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Speaker 3: over there. So you put the three of us together there,

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Speaker 3: and we're gonna get a little true crime history on

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Speaker 3: you with the trial of Sacco and Benzetti.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these guys, I mean a little backstory on I

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Speaker 2: guess the time. We're talking about the nineteen twenties in

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Speaker 2: the United States. We're talking about two gentlemen that were

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Speaker 2: both anarchists, that were both Italian immigrants and both supposedly

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Speaker 2: followers of this really notable anarchist named Luigi Galliani. Who

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Speaker 2: this guy was sort of an anarchist leader. He put

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Speaker 2: out anarchist rag he was called for violence. He has

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Speaker 2: a history of authorizing like bombings, assassination attempts, like really

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Speaker 2: tough stuff. And so this is who supposedly Saco and

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Speaker 2: Vinzetti were, you know, I guess by association advocating advocating sure,

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Speaker 2: advocating for this type of violence them as immigrant anarchists.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember in our anarchism episode, Like during this period,

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Speaker 3: in like a ten year period, anarchists assassinated like five

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Speaker 3: or six major heads of state around the world, including

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Speaker 3: McKinley in the United States. It was a big deal.

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Speaker 3: And I mean there was also a struggle going on

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Speaker 3: for the soul of America. Where we're going to be socialists,

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Speaker 3: where we're going to be capitalists? Should we just go

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Speaker 3: with anarchism. There was a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 3: debate over you know, which which economy we should go with,

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Speaker 3: or what what politics we should go with, And there

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Speaker 3: was something of a red scare because communism was on

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Speaker 3: the table too. There was a red scare at the

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Speaker 3: time too. So it wasn't like the kind of time

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Speaker 3: you would walk around like, yeah, I'm an anarchist, now

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Speaker 3: get on board, you know. But and at the same time,

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Speaker 3: if you weren't an anarchist, you're probably scared of our

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Speaker 3: anarchists because they would bomb stuff and they were well

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Speaker 3: known for it too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I mean this is not just the United States.

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Speaker 2: Like all over the world there were political radicals that

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Speaker 2: was violence from anarchy and riots, and like you said,

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Speaker 2: people trying to take down like politicians or judges that

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Speaker 2: were deporting, at least in the United States, deporting immigrant

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Speaker 2: anarchists back to their home countries like as quickly as

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Speaker 2: they could root them out.

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Speaker 1: Basically.

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Speaker 2: So this is sort of the stage in the early

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenties. And I guess we should hop in the

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Speaker 2: way Back machine.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, let's and head on over to bast In Town. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's Boston by the way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I know, Okay, it doesn't matter if I know.

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Speaker 3: Just make sure the way Back Machine knows.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the way Back Machine knows it can read my

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Speaker 1: silly accents.

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Speaker 3: So here we are. It's nineteen twenty around Boston. And

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Speaker 3: actually we're not in Boston proper. We're about ten miles

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Speaker 3: south in a little town of Braintree, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Which is these days would be Boston proper, so I

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Speaker 1: mean you know more.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's like the metro Boston area. Right. And

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Speaker 3: Braintree was known as a shoe manufacturing center. It had

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Speaker 3: more than one shoe company, which meant it was a

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Speaker 3: shoe manufacturing center. And on this particular day in April

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Speaker 3: of nineteen twenty, I think it was April fifteenth, right, correct,

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Speaker 3: In Braintree, there was a dude named Shelley Neil who

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Speaker 3: was an agent for the American Express Company. And the

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Speaker 3: function I got of Shelley Neil was that he would

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Speaker 3: he was kind of like a Brinks armed guard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a courier for money.

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Speaker 3: And not just some money, like a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: On this day, from the nine eighteen AM train from Boston,

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Speaker 3: Shelley Neil went to the brain Tree, the brain Tree

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Speaker 3: train depot and picked up thirty thousand dollars thirty grand

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Speaker 3: in cash, which is about four hundred and twenty seven

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars in twenty eighteen money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he did this every week.

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Speaker 3: Right. He picked it up, and he took it back

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Speaker 3: to his office, and he opened up a metal box

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Speaker 3: and inside had two canvas bags and each was the

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Speaker 3: payroll for one of the two shoe companies that he

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Speaker 3: picked up money for, one of which was called Slater

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Speaker 3: and Morel. I'm not sure what the other one was.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it was three K. Definitely Slater and Morell it

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Speaker 3: was one of them.

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Speaker 1: The other was New Balance.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yes, so Slater and Morell and New Balance were

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Speaker 3: the ones whose payroll he had on him that day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's so amazing how that stuff used

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Speaker 2: to work back then, Like how payroll was just so

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Speaker 2: lo fi. It would literally be a huge amount of

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Speaker 2: cash delivered it in a box that he would take

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Speaker 2: to an office and someone would sit there and stuff

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Speaker 2: cash into envelopes to then go to like a factory

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Speaker 2: to pay off employees, not pay off, but.

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Speaker 1: To pay right to pay them. There they're legit check

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Speaker 1: from working.

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Speaker 3: You didn't see nothing right this week.

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Speaker 2: This is for all the shoe leather. So that's how

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Speaker 2: it worked back then. And so this is what he

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Speaker 2: was doing. It's just like any other Thursday. However, on

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Speaker 2: this day, as he went in, he noticed a car

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Speaker 2: out front that he had not seen before, this big

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Speaker 2: car that had like these little curtains on the inside

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Speaker 2: windows that were pulled shut and other people in Braintree

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Speaker 2: later on would report seeing that car kind of tooling around,

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Speaker 2: and they said, it looks like it's got like four

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Speaker 2: or five men inside that look Italian and they're just

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Speaker 2: sort of driving around brain Tree, which I guess to

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Speaker 2: raise some suspicions.

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Speaker 3: Sure, because again, if you were Italian, you may have

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Speaker 3: been associated with anarchists who were associated with bomb throwing.

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Speaker 3: So four or five of them kind of aimlessly driving

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Speaker 3: around the town a brain Tree, this little tiny town,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure aroused some suspicions, and definitely did because there

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Speaker 3: were a lot of people who later on said that

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Speaker 3: they saw this car driving around between nine am and

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Speaker 3: twelve pm.

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Speaker 2: That's right, so about three that afternoon. Here's what happened next.

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Speaker 2: For payroll, these people had to get these envelopes, so

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Speaker 2: what's known as a paymaster. And this is also sort

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Speaker 2: of part of the arm guard thing because the paymaster

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Speaker 2: a has a gun and then has a guard with

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Speaker 2: a gun. This guy's name was Freddie Parminter and the

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Speaker 2: guard was Alessandro Erredelli. And so they stop by, they

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Speaker 2: pick up all these envelopes. They're going down to the factory.

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Speaker 2: They're going to pay everybody, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: bam bam, bam bam, gunfire and mayhem ensues.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize there's going to be special effects in

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Speaker 3: this episode, So you did, man, it has been brought it.

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Speaker 3: So these guys are on Pearl Street and when these

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Speaker 3: shots suddenly just ring out and the first guy's hit,

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Speaker 3: Barredelli's hit and he goes down. I believe it was

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Speaker 3: Barredelli who was hit first. Oh no, he wasn't hit.

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Speaker 3: It was Parmenter who was hit. Barredelli is on the

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Speaker 3: ground and he has lost his gun, and he's being

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Speaker 3: approached by a man with a gun on him, and

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Speaker 3: Barredelli apparently has begged for his life to no avail.

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Speaker 3: The man shoots him in the chest at least once,

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Speaker 3: and the bullet punctures his lungs, one of his major

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Speaker 3: arteries to his heart, and then lodges itself and its

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Speaker 3: hip to be fished out later on by a corner

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Speaker 3: and used in the case against Ssacho and van z Eddie.

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Speaker 3: The other guy, parman or the paymaster, he gets hit

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Speaker 3: a few times, staggers across the street and collapses. And

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Speaker 3: this car, a blue touring car, which is you know,

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Speaker 3: a big sedan that you would think of today like

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Speaker 3: a touring. We'll call it a Lincoln town car, even

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Speaker 3: though it's not at all what it was. That blue

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Speaker 3: car that had been seen driving around right, Okay, that's

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Speaker 3: another way to put it. It was abu. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: the same one that had been seen driving slowly around

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Speaker 3: Braintree all morning suddenly pulls up and the guys who

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Speaker 3: had shot these two men and taken the money about

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Speaker 3: fifteen thousand dollars hopped in and that drove off and

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Speaker 3: everyone lost sight of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and very importantly, the man who shot Baradelli had

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Speaker 2: a hat a felt cap on, right, So just remember

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Speaker 2: that little fact. There were eyewitnesses all over the place.

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Speaker 2: It's not like no one saw this happen. Like dozens

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Speaker 2: of people saw this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a daring daylight robbery at three o'clock

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Speaker 3: in the afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Daring do right man named Jimmy Bostock was one of

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Speaker 2: the witnesses. Apparently, Bearadelli like died in his arms, and

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Speaker 2: like all people in the nineteen twenties didn't know any better,

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Speaker 2: he immediately started messing with a crime scene, started picking

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Speaker 2: up gun shells.

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Speaker 1: Another guy came.

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Speaker 2: By and picked up the hat, and you know, they

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Speaker 2: just didn't know any better at the time, I.

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Speaker 3: Guess, right, So this crime scene has been totally messed up.

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Speaker 3: But the cops show up because again, this is a

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Speaker 3: big deal. This is a small town and something close

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Speaker 3: to two hundred and twenty thousand dollars has just been

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Speaker 3: stolen and two men murdered for it in this little,

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Speaker 3: tiny town. So it's a big deal. And the cops

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Speaker 3: showed up, and probably the first thing they said was anarchists.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'll bet that's kind of what they would say,

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Speaker 3: I think at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, should we take a break?

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Speaker 3: Geez?

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Speaker 1: Okay already, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 2: I mean this falls into uh acts and that's definitely

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Speaker 2: act one. Okay, all right, so dead men in the street.

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Speaker 2: The cops are on the scene.

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Speaker 4: Message and and scene and shot.

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Speaker 3: Shot? Is it and scene or end scene?

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Speaker 1: Chuck, We've talked about this a lot. And scene.

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Speaker 3: En scene? Nope, because it makes sense, you know, you

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Speaker 3: do in the.

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Speaker 1: Scene, right, So by saying and scene.

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Speaker 3: So the cops had shown up, they're investigating the place.

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Speaker 3: They're not really finding anything aside from what the witnesses

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Speaker 3: have already kind of gathered up and are now holding

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Speaker 3: out to them in their outstretched palms, like, here's your evidence, Copper.

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Speaker 1: But the.

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Speaker 3: Cars searched for all over and it's not found. It

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Speaker 3: just totally disappears for a couple of days, and it

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Speaker 3: turns up a couple of days later in the woods,

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Speaker 3: I believe, south of Braintree, in a place called Bridgewater,

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Speaker 3: which is a little even further south from Boston. I

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Speaker 3: think it's another like ten or so miles down south

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Speaker 3: from Braintree, right.

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Speaker 2: I think Bridgewater only had seven dunkin Donuts, so it

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Speaker 2: was a small town, right.

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Speaker 3: And so remember when I said the cops were probably

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Speaker 3: like anarchists. I knew it. There was another daylight robbery

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Speaker 3: of payroll, and I found somewhere that it said it

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Speaker 3: was successful. I found somewhere else that it was unsuccessful.

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Speaker 3: But both of them agreed there had been no loss

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Speaker 3: of life whatsoever. But it was similar enough, and it

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Speaker 3: had happened like two years or a year before. It

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Speaker 3: was similar enough that the cops immediately thought of the

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Speaker 3: people they'd been thinking of for this, for this earlier crime.

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Speaker 3: They thought, this is clearly the work of the same people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And when they found this car in the woods.

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Speaker 2: Very importantly, the license plates had been ripped off, and

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Speaker 2: there were other tire tracks nearby, so it seemed pretty

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Speaker 2: obvious that, you know, they ditched this car get in

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Speaker 2: another one. The officer on the scene said, Maddie, I

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Speaker 2: think this is a car from the brain Tree meta.

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Speaker 3: All I can think of is Jeremy Renner in the town. Sure,

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Speaker 3: that's that's what I think of when I think Boston.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone thinks of that. So another thing's going on

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Speaker 2: in parallel, so we need to set this up. Also,

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Speaker 2: on April fifteenth, which is the day of those maritas,

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Speaker 2: there was a guy named Ferruccio Cocchi and he lived

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Speaker 2: in Bridgewater.

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Speaker 1: He was an anarchist.

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Speaker 2: He was being deported, so he quits his job, you know,

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Speaker 2: to be deported, does not show up to be deported.

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Speaker 2: He calls the Immigration service after that on the sixteenth

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Speaker 2: and said, uh, you know, my wife is as sick

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Speaker 2: and so I have to tend to her.

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Speaker 1: And they said, am I going to get in trouble

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Speaker 1: for that? Now?

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Speaker 3: No, you won't coet control. Everybody loves your Italian accent.

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Speaker 1: Please tell me you can still do an Italian accent.

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Speaker 3: Right, I think, so we're going to find out after

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Speaker 3: this episode.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm just doing the accent.

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Speaker 2: Sure, not saying like they're all mobsters, because like, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Sopranos got in trouble for that.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, did they did they say all Italians are mobsters?

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Speaker 2: No, but I mean I remember there just being hay

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Speaker 2: about from the Italian American community, like why is it

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Speaker 2: every time in movies were just mobsters.

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Speaker 3: Oh I could see that, you know, sure, I mean

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Speaker 3: I could see them. Yeah, but these aren't even mobster now.

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Speaker 1: They're anarchists.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So he's being deported, he doesn't go. He calls them

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Speaker 2: and says, my wife is sick, and they said, fine,

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Speaker 2: we're going to check out your story. Though they found

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Speaker 2: that his wife was not sick, and that all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden he's saying, okay, it's fine. Actually I'm really

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Speaker 2: ready to go, Like now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, come on, come on, can you get.

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Speaker 2: Me out of the country quickly? And they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: you should probably like leave some money with your wife.

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Speaker 2: He's like, no, no, no, she's good.

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Speaker 3: Let's just go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so they're like, hmm, all right, this is

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Speaker 1: a little odd, So maybe he's involved.

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Speaker 3: Can I can. I paint the scene a little bit, though.

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Speaker 3: I want to go back over and highlight two things

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Speaker 3: that you've mentioned so far. Sure, One, this is a

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Speaker 3: time where to cover up a crime, all you had

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Speaker 3: to do was remove the license plates on the car

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Speaker 3: you ditched. That was it. You just confounded the forever.

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Speaker 1: Well, that helped.

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Speaker 3: And then secondly, if you were to be deported, all

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Speaker 3: you had to do is not show up, but then

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Speaker 3: call him the next day and say your wife was sick,

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Speaker 3: and Immigration and Naturalization would say, sure, no problem.

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Speaker 1: Well no were they investigated immediately.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But I'm just saying, like this is things have changed, attack,

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Speaker 3: I think, is what I'm trying to say. Hold on,

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Speaker 3: let me let me see, Josh, what are you say

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Speaker 3: You're trying to say that, Yeah, I'm trying to say that. Okay, Yes,

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Speaker 3: that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 2: It's weird because you looked on both of your shoulders

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Speaker 2: at the devil and the angel.

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Speaker 3: They won't shut up, Chuck, so.

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Speaker 2: They summarize, you know, it's all coming together. This guy's

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Speaker 2: acting weird. Well, he's also sixteenth.

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Speaker 3: He's also took one of those people that they liked

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Speaker 3: for that that robbery the year before, which is one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons why they they had their intent up

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Speaker 3: about this guy in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Right, so he's a suspect.

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Speaker 2: The co ops go to specifically, Michael Stewart, police chief, said,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to his house. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to see what else I can find out from this guy.

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Speaker 2: He shows up and there's a dude there named Mike Boda.

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Speaker 2: He says, yeah, sure, you can look around. You can

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Speaker 2: look in the house, go back and look in the garage.

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Speaker 2: Two car garage shed, no problem. I usually have my

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Speaker 2: car there. It's an Overland, but it's in the shop

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Speaker 2: getting repaired. And Stewart goes out there and it's like,

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Speaker 2: all right, so here's where the Overland parks. But there's

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Speaker 2: some really big tire tracks next to the Overland and

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Speaker 2: the second stall that looked like they would probably fit

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Speaker 2: this large buick that was so mysteriously kind of tooling

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Speaker 2: around around the time of this murder.

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Speaker 3: Right, and this cop Stuart goes, hmm, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: make a mental note of that, and that's what he did.

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Speaker 3: He asked about the other car. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: you said, Boda said, that his other car was at

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Speaker 3: the garage being repaired. Correct, So so Stuart, who's the

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Speaker 3: police chief of Bridge Order. I think I get the

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Speaker 3: impression that was kind of new. There was another one

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Speaker 3: who kind of factors into this case tangentially later on,

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Speaker 3: who is the former police chief. So I get the

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Speaker 3: impression that Michael Stewart was fairly new, but he's investigating

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Speaker 3: this case. He likes Kowachi. He's now met Mike Boda,

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Speaker 3: who is suspicious of too. He goes back to talk

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Speaker 3: to Boda some more to this place where Koachi lived

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Speaker 3: as Boda's roommate, I guess away from his wife and kids.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure why Kowachi was running this place.

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Speaker 1: Are we going with Kai? Now?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it. I took Italian in

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Speaker 3: college and I'm almost one hundred percent sure it's Kowachi.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember from our Dyslexi episode where Italian is

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Speaker 3: extremely easy to learn because there's just very few ways

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Speaker 3: to write things, to write the phone memes. One of

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Speaker 3: the reasons it is easy is because it's kind of

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Speaker 3: like Polish. It's in most cases it's actually easier than Polish,

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Speaker 3: but it's pronounced just like it's spelled, except for the

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Speaker 3: ci as a sound. Okay, so kowa chi okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: all right, that was your Italian lesson.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that after all these years.

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Speaker 3: The other little ushuck. Not all Italians or Italian Americans

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Speaker 3: or mobsters. That's your other Italian lesson. No, okay, So.

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Speaker 2: I've known a bunch of Italians Italian Americans and none

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Speaker 2: of them were mobsters.

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Speaker 3: Damn, there you go. So police Chief Stewart goes back

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Speaker 3: to talk to Boda, and things get really suspicious too,

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Speaker 3: don't they, Because he shows up and knocks on the

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Speaker 3: door and the door just swings open onto an empty apartment.

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Speaker 3: And Stuart spends about fifteen minutes going Bda, mister Bona, Hello,

351
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Speaker 3: mister Boda, and he finally takes a couple of steps

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Speaker 3: in and realizes Boda's gone.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So he he goes by the garage where the guy

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Speaker 2: said that his car was in the shop, goes over there.

356
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Speaker 2: The car is still there, so that checked out, and

357
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Speaker 2: he told the owner his name was Simon Johnson. He said, hey,

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Speaker 2: if anyone comes to get this car, just give us

359
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Speaker 2: a call. And the guy says, mental note, call cops

360
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Speaker 2: if someone comes.

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Speaker 1: To get this car.

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Speaker 3: Jeremy Renner.

363
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Speaker 2: So on May fifth, this is what. A couple of

364
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Speaker 2: weeks later, a man comes to the door and this

365
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 2: is it. I believe this is it says nine o'clock.

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Speaker 2: But that's at night, right.

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00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't tell it first, and then it feels

368
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Speaker 3: like night. Yeah. It says also that the wife is

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Speaker 3: illuminated by a motorcycle headlights. Yeah, I guess at night.

370
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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so it's and let's it's very dark

371
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,360
Speaker 2: in the morning, right, So at nine o'clock at night,

372
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Speaker 2: this guy shows up to the owners of the garage's door,

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Speaker 2: knocks on the door. His young wife answers. The guy

374
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Speaker 2: says that he's Mike Boda. I'm here to pick up

375
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Speaker 2: my car that ovaland over there, and the owner of

376
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 2: the garage comes and tells his wife, and he says,

377
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Speaker 2: go call the police. You know, we don't have a phone.

378
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 2: Go next door, call the cops. She leaves out the

379
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 2: back door and is caught, Like you said, there's this

380
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Speaker 2: motorcycle sitting outside. She also sees with a side car,

381
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Speaker 2: also sees a couple of guys that she said were

382
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Speaker 2: speaking Italian kind of hanging around. So it's all sort

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00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: of adding up at this point to something fishy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess the fact that that Simon Johnson,

385
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 3: the shop owner or the mechanic was stalling made Boda

386
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Speaker 3: a little uneasy. Sure, so he took off without the car, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he jumped in the sidecar and was out of there.

388
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Speaker 3: Okay, here's where things get super critical. For a pair

389
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 3: of guys named Saco and Vanzetti, there were two other

390
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 3: those two other guys that Ruth Johnson, Simon Johnson, the

391
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: mechanic's wife said she saw hanging out waiting for Mike

392
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Speaker 3: Boda to get his car. They split two. Now they're

393
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 3: suddenly like on foot. There's no motorcycle or car for them,

394
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 3: so they have to leave on foot. So they walk

395
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 3: over toward the direction of the Bridgewater rail line, and

396
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 3: she says that she saw them get on the train

397
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 3: or at least go toward the train station or another railcar.

398
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: So I think it might have been like a street

399
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 3: car kind of thing. So somehow Chief Stewart gets word

400
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: of this. I think he shows up. He gets word

401
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 3: of this, and he calls the police chief in the

402
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: next town over in Brockton and says, hey, there's going

403
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: to be a pair of Italian guys on the street

404
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 3: car when the streetcar stops and or the railcar stops

405
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 3: in your town. Get them. They are wanted for questioning

406
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: in a murder robbery. And so the Brockton police board

407
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: the train when it arrives in Brockton, and there are

408
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 3: two Italian men sitting there. And the two men's names

409
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 3: were Nicolasaco and Bartolomeo Venzetti, and they just happen to

410
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,959
Speaker 3: be Italian, and they just happen to be anarchists, and

411
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 3: they both happen to be strapped when the cop came

412
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: on the rail car and started asking them questions.

413
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, Saco had a thirty two cult and Van City

414
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: had a thirty eight Harrington and Richardson, which very uniquely

415
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: had five.

416
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: Chambers instead of six.

417
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 3: It's very unusual, seems unique.

418
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't even know how that works.

419
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: I would have to see this kind of revolver because

420
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: six is a nice even number for a round thing.

421
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 1: I don't get it.

422
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 3: But yeah, no one ever says like, don't point that

423
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 3: five shooter at me. It's always six shooter, you know. Yeah,

424
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 3: that's weird, although maybe maybe a five shooters what they're

425
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 3: talking about when they call it a pea shooter.

426
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: No, let's not what they mean.

427
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 2: But it was the nineteen twenties and there were all

428
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 2: kinds of weird guns back.

429
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: Then, right, Okay, So these two Italian immigrants who were

430
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: anarchists and who were carrying guns had one other big problem.

431
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 3: They were giving some pretty weak and ever evolving stories

432
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 3: an answer to the questions that the cops are asking them.

433
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 3: They get hauled into the police station I believe in

434
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: Bridgewater or Braintree. Do you know which one it was?

435
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: I think it was. I think it was Braintree. Actually

436
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: they got taken to Braintree because it was Stuart who

437
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: was investigating them. So they get taken to Braintree and

438
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: police Chief Stewart questions them. But then so too does

439
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 3: the chief prosecutor for the area, a guy named Frederick Katzman,

440
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 3: who would play an enormous role in this case as well.

441
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was the DA and I think the

442
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: key fact that really sold him was he found out

443
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 2: that on April fifteenth, on the day of these murders,

444
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: Sokka was not at work at the three K shoe factory,

445
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: and he said, you know what, that's enough for me.

446
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: We have no real evidence or anything else, but you

447
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: are Italian Italian American anarchists. You weren't work that day,

448
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: so let's go ahead and haul you in here.

449
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 3: Right, Because yeah, we left off the fact that they

450
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 3: found like anarchist pamphlets on the on the men when

451
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: they when they took them off the train. So there

452
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 3: was a lot against them going against them at this

453
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: point just from the outside of this, but you kind

454
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: of touched on it. All of this is very very circumstantial.

455
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So right away the anarchists of the area come

456
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: on board. They formed the Saco Vinsetti Defense Committee, and

457
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: one of their leaders, one of the anarchist leaders in

458
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: the area named Carlo Tresca, said all right, let's hire

459
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: this this lawyer from California and this guy's a radical.

460
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: He's going to lead our defense and more comes on board.

461
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: Fred Moran's like, here's the way we're going to do

462
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: this is let's like let's get everyone worked up, like

463
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 2: not only in this area but all over the world.

464
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: Let's get radicals and let's get anarchists, and let's get

465
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: at union members let's paint these guys is just like

466
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: hard working, blue collar union dudes, and let's get people

467
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: all over the world paying attention to what's going on

468
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: over here.

469
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: Yes, which is a very common tactic still in use today.

470
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: Just turn public sentiment against the government and the prosecutors

471
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: in their case and basically paint it like Socco and

472
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: VINZEEDI where just a couple of normal dudes who are

473
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: being railroaded for political reasons and probably out of a

474
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: certain amount of xenophobia as well.

475
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: Sure, so let's take a break.

476
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: The trial opens in May of nineteen twenty one with

477
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: Judge Webster theayer, and we'll be back with what happens

478
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: next right after.

479
00:26:42,960 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: This shot sho check. Before we get back into I

480
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: want to give a shout out to Doug Linder. Douglas Linder,

481
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: who's a law professor and historian who wrote a paper

482
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 3: that we used as a source. So it was pretty

483
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 3: pretty handy, pretty good stuff.

484
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, law professors.

485
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of good information out here

486
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: on this, but you get a law professor on the

487
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: on the typewriter and they're going to condense it into

488
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: a nice, readable, workable document.

489
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: That's right.

490
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: That's what they do. They're very good at that. Yes,

491
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: So all right, trials underway.

492
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: Like I said before, Judge Webster, there proceeds over this trial. Katsman,

493
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: that's the DA that's prosecuting. He has got a lot

494
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 2: of circumstantial evidence, he has eyewitnesses, but not really a

495
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: lot of hard.

496
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: Evidence going on.

497
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 2: Right, It's sort of a tough case for him to

498
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: like solidly prove.

499
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was another reason why Fred Moore was

500
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: able to run around drumming up public sentiment not just

501
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 3: in the United States or even just Boston or Massachusetts,

502
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 3: but around the world that that Socco and Vanzetti were

503
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: being railroaded. Is that the evidence against them was really,

504
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 3: really weak. The eyewitness testimony was super if you if

505
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: you had the luxury like historians like Douglas Linder have

506
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: had to compare, you know, the original notes or the

507
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: original statements made by eyewitnesses against the the types of

508
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: statements they made in court. The statements they made in

509
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: court were much more certain, much more sure. And this

510
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: was after a year of reading the newspaper and being

511
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: exposed to pictures of Socco and Vanzetti. So when they

512
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: see Socco and Vanzetti in the courtroom, they're like, yes,

513
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: I saw that man holding that gun and he was

514
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: one that pulled the trigger. The thing is, there was

515
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: not one witness, but there were witnesses who placed both

516
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: of them at the crime scene or at least in

517
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: the buick around town on that day. But there was

518
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: not one single witness who placed both of them there.

519
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: That's just the eyewitnesses. They also had the other big

520
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: piece of circumstantial evidence were the guns that they were

521
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: found with, and they used ballistic experts to come in

522
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: and say, yes, this bullet came from this gun. But

523
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: again looking at it with history, the benefit of history,

524
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 3: this was at a time when ballistics comparison was just

525
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: beginning to come around, and the people that they employed

526
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 3: as ballistics experts were self taught amateurs who just basically

527
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 3: had an interest in this field, were in no way,

528
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: shape or form genuine experts, because you could make a

529
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: case there was no such thing as a genuine ballistics

530
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: comparison expert at the time. It was too new as

531
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: far as forensic goes.

532
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so on the defense side, immediately they say those

533
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: guys weren't even in Braintree. SOCCO was in Boston, Vancetti

534
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: was in Plymouth, both sides. It's interesting to look back

535
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: on this trial because both the prosecution and the defense

536
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: were like being very hinky with the truth themselves, influencing

537
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: people on both sides to testify kind.

538
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: Of behind the scenes.

539
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: Fred Moore, the defense attorney, trotted out a bunch of

540
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: witnesses that say, no, like Vanzetti was definitely in Plymouth,

541
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: he's a fishmonger, bought fish from him. And then later

542
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: on it was found out that some of these people,

543
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: well all of them basically were friends of his. And

544
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: then some of the people came out even later and said, yeah,

545
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: he kind of told me to say this, But that

546
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: happened on the prosecution side too.

547
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Supposedly later on they would allege that the prosecutor, Catsman,

548
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: and the chief or the lead ballistics or the star

549
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: ballistics witness had kind of coordinated the answer that the

550
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: ballistics witness would give at trial, and that it would

551
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: be much more stronger and much much more certain than

552
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: than the actual conclusion he came to prior to the

553
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 3: trial based on his original ballistics tests.

554
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's there's hinkiness on both sides. Katzman has

555
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: this hat. And remember one of the gunmen definitely had

556
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: on a gray cap, so he has this great cap.

557
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: He said, this is Saco's. He gets together with an

558
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: expert behind the scenes and says and again with this

559
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: like like you were saying, the sort of the beginnings

560
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: of not ballistics in.

561
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: This case, but just forensics, any kind of forensics. Yeah.

562
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: He looked at the hairs in the hat, got a

563
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: hair from Soco, and Soco was like, oh that hurt.

564
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: And he compared him and he said, yeah, these hairs

565
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: are identical. I'm telling you, they're the same hairs. But

566
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: Catzman was like, you know what, I don't want to

567
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: go to court and present this because this stuff is

568
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: all new. They're going to paint you as unreliable because

569
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: no one knows anything about hair comparison yet. So instead

570
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: of doing that, he goes to the boss of the

571
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: shoe factory, George Kelly, and was like, have you seen

572
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: this hat before? And Kelly said, yes, that's Soaco's hat.

573
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: I've seen him wear that hat and the hole in

574
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: it is from the nail that he hangs it on

575
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: every day, when in fact that was definitely not the case.

576
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: No, that earlier the previous police chief later testified that

577
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: he had actually accidentally punched the hole in the hat

578
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: while he was examining it for any kind of identifying marks.

579
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: Which is weird.

580
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: He also testified that the hat had a very questionable providence,

581
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: that it hadn't come into police custody for thirty hours

582
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: after the crime, so he couldn't say he as far

583
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: as he knew, it was not found at the crime scene,

584
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: that it hadn't been secured by the police. He didn't

585
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 3: know exactly where it came from. And then finally I

586
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 3: read elsewhere in a final twist, and to me if

587
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: this sounds familiar, but they asked Sacho to put the

588
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: hat on in court and it was too small for

589
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: his head. It didn't fit.

590
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: You must acquit. They did not acquit though, Well, he

591
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: just ruined it.

592
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry, Sorry everybody. It's funny. There's probably a

593
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: lot of people out there who have no idea how

594
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: this is going to turn out, because if you search

595
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: on Google just Socco and Vanzetti. One of the suggested

596
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: questions is what is Soacho and Vanzetti? Not who what?

597
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: It's a nice apartee, right, so.

598
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if we mentioned, but like Soco had

599
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: definitely much more evidence against him, even if it was

600
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: circumstantial than Venzetti did.

601
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: Eyewitnesses. Yeah, for sure.

602
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: So Vanzetti is has the thinnest case against him, but

603
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: he like he lied to the cops he had that, remember,

604
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: and on the stand he said, yeah, actually I got

605
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: that gun just a few days ago.

606
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: I bought it for four or five bucks.

607
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: And they're like, well, you told us that you bought

608
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 2: it four or five years ago for eighteen dollars, right,

609
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 2: you said there were six chambers in it and only

610
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: had five.

611
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: And what's going on here? You're lying, Jimmy Vanzetti.

612
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: The whole thing with the gun, I don't know if

613
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 3: we've said or not yet. The reason why the gun

614
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: was so suspicious and was basically like these central piece

615
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: of evidence used against Vanzetti is that it was supposedly

616
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: the exact same kind of gun that Alessandro Barredelli had

617
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 3: on and when he was killed. Yeah, So the whole

618
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 3: idea was that Vanzetti had been at the at least

619
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 3: at the crime seeing, if not one of the killers,

620
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 3: who had taken Barredelli's gun after he had killed him

621
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: and made off with it, which would explain why he

622
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 3: wasn't very familiar with the gun and how many chambers

623
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: it had and didn't have a very solid story about

624
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: where he'd gotten it. How long you owned it too.

625
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 3: That was the implication of the whole thing, and that

626
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: was basically the That was it. That was the crux

627
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 3: of the prosecution's case against Vanzetti. Fanzetti's big problem was

628
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: he was sitting next to Saco when Soco got taken

629
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: off the train, and they had a lot more of

630
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 3: Soco and they were tried together rather than separately.

631
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, in Soco, that ballistics evidence made a big, big

632
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: difference in the trial because they found out for sure

633
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: that that bullet that killed Bearadelli was definitely fired from

634
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: a cult automatic and your cult automatic is what they alleged, right,

635
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 2: And well, we'll hold on to that last bit until later.

636
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: But about what was found out later about that, But

637
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: I think even some of the jurors said that that

638
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: was really some of the most compelling evidence against Socco

639
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: for us in deciding this case.

640
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, like they're listening to forensic evidence from

641
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: a field that's still in the very and it's cradle

642
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 3: from testimony given by people who are not experts. But

643
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: that was, like you said, the juror said, was that

644
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 3: was it for me? That was what convinced me was

645
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: the ballistics of it.

646
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: It's basically so they go to jury and they go

647
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: to deliberations and just five and half five and a

648
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: half hours later the jury said guilty is charged.

649
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: About six weeks after the trial started, I believe.

650
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was a big deal, you know, like

651
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: Saco's crying out I'm innocent and Italian in the court.

652
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: There were like protests all over the world, like South America, France, Lisbon.

653
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 2: It's just crazy how much this at the time in

654
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties became an international thing and basically they

655
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: were due for the electric chair. So people all over

656
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: the world were protesting, that were bombings.

657
00:36:58,840 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: It was nuts.

658
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is I mean, this is a time when

659
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: labor was unionized, so you could arouse the sympathy of

660
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people at once by going to the

661
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: union hall and saying like, hey, your brothers in arms

662
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: over there in America are being railroaded into a murder rap.

663
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: They're going to be electrocuting the electric chair for something

664
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: they didn't commit. Simply because of their political beliefs. How

665
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 3: messed up is that? And they you could arouse some

666
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 3: people pretty quickly back then by saying that as opposed

667
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: to today.

668
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

669
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: More immediately starts the defense attorney immediately starts filing motions trying.

670
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: To get like new trials.

671
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: He had an assistant named Eugene Lyons who later would

672
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: come out and say, man, like this guy basically would

673
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: do anything. He was framing evidence, he was telling witnesses

674
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: what to say, like once he had up in his

675
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: mind that and keep in mind, this was like a

676
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: radical lawyer from California. He said, once he had in

677
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: mind that these guys were innocent, he was like he

678
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: basically would do anything to try and get them off.

679
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, he'd suborn perjury, he'd intimidate witnesses, he'd do whatever

680
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 3: if he thought that somebody was being innocently prosecuted. Fred

681
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: Moore would stop at nothing to yeah, to get them off.

682
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 3: And this article, I think kind of paints an incomplete

683
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 3: picture of Eugene Lyons and Fred Moore's relationship. Like Eugene

684
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 3: Lyons was also very much an admirer of Fred Moore too,

685
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: like he considered Fred Moore to have the heart of

686
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: an artist, but he was that. He had dedicated his

687
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: life to getting people who were being steamrolled by the

688
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: system or unfairly treated by the courts out from under

689
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: these these charges. He was a he was an early

690
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: civil libered, civil liberties lawyer, basically was what he was.

691
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so none of these motions work. He files a

692
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: bunch of them. We're not going to detail them all,

693
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: but none of them, Uh, none of them worked. They

694
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 2: were basically all turned down. Thayer was still the presiding judge.

695
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 2: He was turning down all these things. Then they went

696
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: to like federal court, they were turning down motions. Eventually

697
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: they went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court

698
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: was like, why are you asking us about this? Like

699
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: this is a state case, Like we don't even do

700
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: this kind of thing.

701
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. The court at the time was very much against

702
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 3: or the majority I should say it was against applying

703
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: the federal Constitution to state issues, so they wouldn't get involved.

704
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: But I mean it did go all the way to

705
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: at least petitioning the Supreme Court. They wouldn't hear it

706
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: and they wouldn't stay the execution either. But he as

707
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: much as a lawyer can exhaust petitions and appeals for

708
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 3: clemency and the stay of execution. Fred Moore did, and

709
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 3: then later on another defense lawyer named William Thompson, who

710
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: took over for fred Moore after Saco fired Fred Moore,

711
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: did the same thing. Like up to the eve the

712
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: eve of the execution, they were relentless and filing appeals

713
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 3: with anything, anything they could get their hands on. They

714
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 3: filed an entire motion for a new trial based strictly

715
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: on Judge Thayer's perceived prejudice against anarchists. Apparently he did

716
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: not like anarchists, and he treated Socaco and Vinzetti as

717
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: such throughout the trial. And as you're if you're just

718
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: watching watching this from the outside, if you're reading about

719
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: this in the press, and you're already on Socco and

720
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: Vinzetti's side, Judge Theayer turning down motion after motion after

721
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 3: motion after motion looks really bad. It looks very much

722
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: like this judge is bent on railroading these two immigrant

723
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: anarchists into an early and unjust death by electric chair.

724
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 3: So the public's sympathies were aroused even further for Socco

725
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 3: and Vanzetti, and that would last for decades after this

726
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 3: trial up century almost now.

727
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Socho's in jail and another weird thing happens

728
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: while he's in jail. In Dedham d e d h

729
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: a M.

730
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 2: There was another prisoner there who passed a note on

731
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: and said basically, I'm confessing to this crime. My name

732
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: is Celestino Madeiros And they were like, all right, well.

733
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: Let's talk to this guy.

734
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: He's confessing to this crime and saying that Socco and

735
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: Vince Eddie are innocent. He said, I was there. I

736
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: was with four other guys, so that kind of checks out.

737
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: As far as the five Italians. He said, we met

738
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: in Providence at a bar and we just came up

739
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: with this plan.

740
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: He said.

741
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: There was a guy named Mike, a gun named Bill.

742
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 2: I don't know the other guys. I was scared. We

743
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 2: switched cars in the woods. Like all this stuff was

744
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: sort of making sense, but it really didn't. Like in

745
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: the end, there were too many other things that were wrong,

746
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: Like he said that they didn't get there until afternoon

747
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: and everyone was like, no, that car was there like

748
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 2: maybe between nine am and noon. He also said that

749
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: the payroll money was in a bag when it was

750
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: in a metal box, and so there were enough inconsistencies

751
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: basically where he wasn't really a major suspect like they

752
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: considered it. Thompson tried to use it as the basis

753
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: for a new trial, but none of this worked because

754
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: there was still kind of calling the shots this before

755
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: they ran it up the flag bowl.

756
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but again news made made its way out into

757
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 3: the international press that someone had confessed, and not only confessed,

758
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: said that Socco and Vanzetti weren't there, and this this

759
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: judge who had it out for Socco and Vanzetti refused

760
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: to even hear this, this motion to have a new trial.

761
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 3: So it looked it looked bad as well too.

762
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: It did so it looked bad enough that the governor

763
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: at the time, Alvin Fuller, said, you know what, we

764
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: have to do something here. There's just too much public

765
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: pressure going on from around the world. He said, so

766
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: here's what we'll do. We'll get a three person advisory committee.

767
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: They're going to investigate this. He said, hey, you Lawrence Lowell,

768
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: you're the president of HAVID. You had this thing up.

769
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 2: And then what was known as the Lowell Commission finally

770
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: issued a report which said basically beyond a reasonable doubt,

771
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: Soco is guilty, and Voncetti said on the whole it's

772
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: our opinion that he's also guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

773
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: And everyone was like, well, why'd you say all those

774
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: other words then?

775
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 3: And they're like, what other words?

776
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? Really kind of a strange final report.

777
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 3: What's funny is in the Boston area if they're like,

778
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 3: we need somebody smart, get me the president of Harvard, Well.

779
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the end he's like, you are definitely

780
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 2: guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and so are you more

781
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: or less in our opinion?

782
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 3: Right? No, I know. It was weird and it remains weird.

783
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: But apparently years later, when Loll was asked about that,

784
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 3: he was saying, like, no, that wasn't any indication that

785
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: we thought Vanzetti had any kind of any kind of

786
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 3: innocence to him or that he wasn't guilty. I'm not

787
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: sure exactly how he explained it, but he basically said, no,

788
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: that wasn't that's not what that was. Oh interesting, I

789
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: don't know what he thought it was. There was a

790
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 3: weird way to put it, but that was I think

791
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: the other thing that kind of arouses people's interest in

792
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 3: that or suspicion maybe even is that that's what a

793
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 3: lot of people think that Socco was definitely guilty. Yeah,

794
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 3: I shouldn't say a lot, but some people that Socco

795
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: was definitely guilty and if anyone was innocent, it was Vanzetti.

796
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 3: So the idea that this Loll Commission came up with

797
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 3: this back in the twenties, even it is significant, but yeah,

798
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: Loell was like, no, that's not what we meant by that.

799
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: So none of these stays of execution go through. So

800
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: they are reunited. They were split up in jail for many,

801
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: many years, six years, and then they were finally reunited

802
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 2: at Charlestown State Prison for execution in April, and they had,

803
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: like you wouldn't believe how many cops they have in

804
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: this town to cover this thing because it was sort

805
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: of one of the first crimes of the century, I think,

806
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: and people were mad all over the country and all

807
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: over the world, like we've been talking about. They didn't

808
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: know if they're going to be more bombings, people were

809
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: going to like literally storm the prison and trying to

810
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 2: overtake them and free them. So they had tons and

811
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: tons of cops everywhere. Socho is first to go, and

812
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: as they are strapping him in, he's crying out in Italian,

813
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: long live anarchy, and then in English very quietly says,

814
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: farewell my wife and child and all my friends. And

815
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 2: right when they finally threw the switch, he screamed out, mama.

816
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: And I don't think like that. No, no, I'm not

817
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: making light of it. I don't think he was like,

818
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: whoa mama.

819
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so either. I think he was

820
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 3: calling for his mother. Yes, just pretty sad but also

821
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: kind of sweet.

822
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: Yes.

823
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: And then Vanzetti comes in and he's like, oh, it's

824
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 3: my turn, all right, Well, okay, I want to make

825
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: sure everybody knows that I am innocent. So I think

826
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: it's significant that Saka was the one that shouted in

827
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: the courtroom that he was innocent, but didn't during his execution,

828
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 3: and Vanzetti didn't say anything in the courtroom, but during

829
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: his execution he's like, I'm innocent. And not only that,

830
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 3: he really turned the screwdriver. He said, I want to

831
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: make it known that I forgive all of you who

832
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 3: are about to do this to.

833
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: Me, and he started crying.

834
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: Well, the wardens started crying when he gave the switch,

835
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 3: gave the nod to turn to throw the switch on

836
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: the electric chair and kill Vanzetti.

837
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: Tears flying everywhere. Highdrama.

838
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm surprised there's movie. Surely it has been, but

839
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: I'll bet it wasn't like the seventies or something. We

840
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: just aren't aware of it. Like Warren Batty played Socco

841
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: and Venzetti in some weird casting.

842
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: And somehow Jeremy Renner played all the.

843
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: Cops right exactly. So Socco and Venzetti are dead like

844
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 3: they're dead. The state took their lives. They executed them,

845
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 3: these conceivably innocent men who were railroaded to the electric

846
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 3: chair on circumstantial evidence and the testimony of some ballistic

847
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: experts who were not experts by anyone's measure. These men

848
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 3: are now dead, and the world reacts predictably. There were riots.

849
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 3: Six people died in a riot in Germany. The American

850
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: embassy in Paris had already been bombed, so they brought

851
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 3: tanks out on the night of the execution and surrounded it.

852
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 3: This time, and there were no bombings. There were riots

853
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: in Geneva, Switzerland. This may have been the only time

854
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 3: anyone ever rided in Geneva, Switzerland, there were like five

855
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: thousand protesters who destroyed everything that was even passingly American,

856
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 3: and Socco and Vinzetti went into the history books as

857
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: a couple of innocent men who were executed wrongfully by

858
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 3: the state because of their political beliefs. They were political

859
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 3: prisoners who were executed for their beliefs. Basically is how

860
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 3: most people have come to see Socco and Vanzetti.

861
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but many years later a couple of a few

862
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: notable things happened in nineteen forty one that gentleman I

863
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, Carlo Tresca, the anarchist leader a couple of

864
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: years before he died in the nineteen forties, basically said,

865
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: you know what, Socca was guilty, he was a triggerman,

866
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: but Vanzetti was not guilty. Other people had heard the

867
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: same thing from Tresca. And then in nineteen sixty one

868
00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: they had actual ballistics tests done and it was concluded

869
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: that that was in fact a bullet from Socho's gun.

870
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: But people still were saying, no, you know what, I

871
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: think that bullet was planted, So we render that inconclusive.

872
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: But I think Doug Linder does a pretty good job

873
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 3: of taking the planted bullet theory fatal bullet or bullet

874
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 3: number three is what it's called in the trial and

875
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 3: basically saying, though, this is why that doesn't really hold up.

876
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: And probably the biggest one is when those ballistics witnesses

877
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: gave their testimony, both of the prosecutions star ballistic witnesses

878
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: said yes, I would conclude probably that it came out

879
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: of this gun, or yes, it's probable or possible or

880
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 3: something like that. They couched their expert opinions when they

881
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 3: gave their testimony, And if they were part of a

882
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 3: conspiracy to frame Soco in the planting of this bullet,

883
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 3: they would have given much more forceful testimony, which in

884
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: and of itself is a circumstantial evidence against this planted

885
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: bullet theory. But it draws so closely on common sense

886
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 3: that I think it makes sense to me, it undermines

887
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: the idea that the bullet was planted.

888
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was another gentleman named Giovanni Gambera who said,

889
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: you know what, my dad, before he died in nineteen

890
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: eighty two, he told me he was on this team

891
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: of anarchists that met after their arrest to get their

892
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: defense mounted. And he told me, and everyone said basically

893
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: that Soaka was guilty and Venzetti was innocent. And then, weirdly,

894
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: in two thousand and five, Upton Sinclair, the very famous author,

895
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: said that he was researching a book and he was

896
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: going to he was writing a book about this whole thing,

897
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 2: and he met with Fred Moore, that the radical defense

898
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: attorney that mounted the defense for basically most of the case.

899
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: And he said he met with him in a hotel

900
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: room and was like, dude, give me the real story.

901
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: And he said that Moore told him, Yeah, Socco was

902
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: guilty and Vanzetti was innocent, and I basically came up

903
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: with this whole defense on my own, like made all

904
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: this stuff up.

905
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Years later it came out that the seven

906
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 3: eye witnesses for the defense, who said that they saw

907
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 3: Soco eating lunch in Boston at the time of the

908
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 3: robbery and Braintree, had all been set up by the defense,

909
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 3: or at least by an anarchist group who had asked

910
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 3: them to go perjure themselves. And yeah, I think that

911
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 3: kind of jibes with the Eugene Lions quote that like,

912
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 3: if he thought these guys were innocent, they would do

913
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: he would do anything to get them off, including you know,

914
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 3: putting witnesses on the stand knowing that they were going

915
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 3: to lie, and telling them to lie. And this was

916
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 3: a letter from Upton Sinclair based on an interview with

917
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: Fred Moore, So it has a lot of teeth. But

918
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 3: the thing there was another letter from Upston Sinclair, another

919
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,479
Speaker 3: quote from Upton Sinclair where he said that Fred Moore

920
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 3: had confessed to him that Vanzetti was innocent, and he

921
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,760
Speaker 3: knew he was innocent, but he was pretty sure Soacho wasn't.

922
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: But all he had to do was go to the

923
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: jury and say, hey, we all know that you don't

924
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: have anything on Vanzetti. There's no reason for you to

925
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 3: prosecute this man. But he knew that if he did that,

926
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 3: the jury would be like, well, you're probably right, but

927
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 3: we're going to come down really hard on Soaco. So

928
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 3: he had this dilemma and he took it to Vanzetti,

929
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 3: he said, and Vanzetti said, you know what, try to

930
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: save Nick Nicholas Sacho. He has the wife, he has

931
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 3: the child. I don't try to get him off. So Vanzetti,

932
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 3: in this retelling by Fred Moore, gave his life on

933
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 3: the chance that Fred Moore could get Soacho off because

934
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 3: if he Scaco off, hed get Vanzetti off, if he

935
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 3: got Vanzetti off, he would almost surely sink Soco and

936
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 3: Vinzetti wouldn't take the take the opportunity to be acquitted

937
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 3: at the expense of Socco, which is pretty.

938
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing.

939
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: Yep. So that's Soacho and Vanzetti, everybody. That's what a

940
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 3: Socaco and Vanzetti is.

941
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: Now, you know, I guess one guilty and one innocent.

942
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 3: That's what it sounds like.

943
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: That's what it sounds like.

944
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: If you want to know more about Socco and Vanzetti,

945
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 3: go look up Doug Linder. I believe he has a

946
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 3: whole site on true crime. And there's plenty of other

947
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 3: stuff out there that we found too on the internet

948
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: about Socco and Vanzetti and their famous trial. And since

949
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 3: I said Socco and Vanzetti like eighty times, it's time

950
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 3: for listener mail.

951
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this response to a short stuff. Yeah right, Hey, guys, your.

952
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: Show's one of my favorite podcasts, so much so that

953
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,439
Speaker 2: I've taken to listening to it while I get ready

954
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 2: for work.

955
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: WHOA, we know that as your acred time. Nadine I just.

956
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: Finished the episode on Black Loyalists and immediately started to

957
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: write the email. I'm a Rhode Islander in Nova Scotia

958
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 2: for work and got so excited to hear a little

959
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: piece of Nova Scotia's history on there. I looked into

960
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: the Loyalist Heritage Museum, but it only has weekday operation,

961
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 2: so I don't think I'll be able to make it there.

962
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: I will definitely do some exploring of halifaxx SO in

963
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 2: the coming weeks, and we'll be on the lookout for

964
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 2: more information. I just wanted to mention on the show

965
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: that it was Josh said that Rhode Island may not

966
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 2: have ever had slaves.

967
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: Actually, we were the.

968
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: First state to abolish slavery in sixteen fifty two, but

969
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: the law was mostly ignored and we ended up with

970
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 2: the most slaves per capita of any colony. I did

971
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 2: not know that we also had a pretty booming slave

972
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: trade in Newport, Rhode Island, now known for their gilded

973
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 2: aged splendor. A piece of Rhode Island history I'm sure

974
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: most don't learn in history class that I wanted to

975
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 2: shed light on. Thanks for always putting out a funny

976
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 2: and informative and entertaining. That is from Nadine Greed.

977
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, Nadine, that was great. Thanks for listening

978
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,879
Speaker 3: while you get ready for work. Hope work's going well

979
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: up there in Nova Scotia. Just thinks bring to you

980
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 3: and everybody up there in Nova Scotia. Frankly, if you

981
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 3: want to get in touch with us, you can join

982
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 3: us on Stuffishould Know dot com. Check out our social

983
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: links there, and you can just send us a good

984
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 3: old fashioned email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

985
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 3: and send it off to stuff Podcasts at HowStuffWorks dot com.

986
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

987
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,640
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988
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:42,600
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