WEBVTT - Surviving R. Kelly: An Accuser's Daughter Speaks Out (Pt. 2) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.840 Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.000 Facebook Watch show in audio, produced by Westbrook Audio and 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.120 I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:24.040 on Apple Podcasts. All right, and five four three, we're 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.480 back at the Red Table. I'm so glad you've joined us. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:31.480 For part two. We're talking about the docuseries Surviving R 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:36.120 Kelly with a very very brave survivor, Lisa Van Allen. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.199 The lifetime docuseries Surviving R Kelly has created an international 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.519 uproar over the R and B singers alleged abuse and 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:49.360 sexual misconduct with Myers. Lisa Van Allen, one of Kelly's accusers, 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.440 was only seventeen when she started dating the thirty one 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.200 year old star. On part one of our special Red 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.279 Table Talk Surviving R Kelly The Aftermath, Lisa described how 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.040 she fell under a spell. He's a master manipulator. He 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.080 knew my whole background. He knew that I was in 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.399 foster care. He knew that I was adopted, like I 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.759 may have been tricked here. After ten years with R. Kelly, 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.280 Lisa revealed her breaking point. He specifically kept telling me 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.200 to buy my daughter dresses, and I'm looking like, why 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.080 does he care? Just my instincts was like the say, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.000 I'm not feeling it. Van Allen's story is not unique. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.880 Kelly has been accused of isolating young girls from their 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.559 families by praying on their hopes and dreams and learning 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:37.800 them with false promises. So I know, Lisa, you have 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.720 your sixteen year old daughter here and she hasn't heard 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.200 the entire story of what happened to you until she 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.839 watched the Yeah, I watched it with her. Are you doing? 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.080 I didn't want anyone else to talk to her about it, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:51.920 so I felt like me and her needed to watch 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:59.000 it together. Goodness, look at this beauty. How are you? You? 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:04.040 Looking like your mama? Right? Thank you? Wow, it's so 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.400 nice to have you here. So let me ask you, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.640 how was it two sit with your mom and hear 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:19.280 her story. It was hard and it hurt me because 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:27.320 nobody will hear that out there. You cry, It's okay, 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:37.440 it's okay, come close y. Yeah. But yeah, it's changed 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:42.880 my perspective on a lot of stuff because get it out. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.840 I know what you need to do because people are 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:51.720 really gmental nowadays, and it's so absolutely. You know, when 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.359 you hear someone's story and it's like you don't know, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.200 you know, like anyone could be going through anything, and 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:07.840 it'll it'll know you she's doing. It'll make you realize 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:09.720 like that's how they that's why they act the way 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:11.960 they act, and this is why they're like this, this 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.640 is why they have angry issues and stuff. And I 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:16.679 used to always question that about my mom, like why 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.840 she's so overprotective and and I understand now that it's 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.040 scary out there, like people are crazy. Has anyone ever 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.040 come up to you at school like saying anything about this? 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.680 On social media? Is yeah, yeah, somebody DM me earlier 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.200 today it was like, not to be rude, but does 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.520 r Kelly seeing you guys money, Like, why would you 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:46.120 say that for what? So I just blocked the person. 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.680 That can be so hard. I know how it feels 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.920 to to have people talking negatively about you on the 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.960 internet or your family and you're just seeing it and 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.400 you're like, what what do I do? And it makes 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.040 you feel kind of powerless in a way. Yeah, they'll 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.000 just make up anything and just say it's just so 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.400 you can either respond or just so you can get 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.520 mad or so you feelings will be hurt. Do you 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:14.240 think that seeing that change your perspective on men? Do 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:19.600 you feel afraid to date? Are afraid to have experiences 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:25.000 with males? After? I'm just more cautious, just vigilant. It's 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:26.920 like I'm not even interested in like you know, like 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.919 I'm not in a rush because a lot of people nowadays, 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.039 like at my school and stuff, they're like, oh, I 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.760 want boyfriend, boyfriend me please, And I'm like, no, okay. 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.640 When you watch something like this, in what ways are 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.880 you more vigilant? Did you get like certain signs you 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.839 would look out for, Like how guys using the telephone 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.960 for control, Like you can't post this thing texting you 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.160 five hundred times a day and if you don't calling 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.960 that definitely a form of control, you're gonna you're gonna 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.839 call me back. Yeah, he just had to this situation 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.640 about that and cut that really sure? Oh really? He 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.480 was telling me that he was overpowered, like she'd mocked space. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.159 Just keep when you're ignoring me back to back? What 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.560 f wrong with you? Answer back? And she said, oh no, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.440 I blocked his number. He damned me on Instagram and 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.560 I was like, I just need space right now and 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.040 then the next day texting me, texting me call Call, 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.560 Call Call. I saw it as a red flag from 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.520 her experience, and then when he started getting aggressive and 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.640 was like, why are you ignoring me, I'm like bye. 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.360 When Willow and I were watching it together, we had 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.960 some real teachable moments, you know, just like you said. 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.479 I definitely realized because my mom was super she still 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.719 is protective, and when I was younger, it was such 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.279 a mystery to me. It was like, what is what 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.120 is the big bad? Like let me know, Like I 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.719 want to know what it is. You don't want to 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:56.880 know what it is, like you really don't. There have 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.960 been so many times I've had to have very real 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.160 old conversations with Willow in regards to I don't care 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.760 if you look at this person as like your older 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.720 brother and you trust them, you're not to be alone anywhere. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.599 And we've had some very hard for me not understanding 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.200 and being like why it doesn't matter her and me 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.520 having to tell her it's not you, I don't trust. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.599 Here's the thing about girls, when they get to those 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.920 ages of seventeen eighteen years old, you can you think 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.800 you've grown right, and as a parent, you only have 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:36.880 but so much control because I'm gonna tell you you're 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.640 on my ass. You're like, you better be in his house, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.200 whether I mean you will on me. And I'm like, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:43.840 I'm gonna find a way to lie to her. I'm 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.359 gonna find a way to manipulate her. Oh, I'm staying 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:50.280 at my girlfriend's house while I'm on these streets doing 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:55.520 whatever the hell. I would be as real. I'd be like, yam, 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.560 hold up, I got a dream. Now you're not gonna 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.080 get in the way of that. Like this man is 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.880 saying he might give me an opportunity. You're not thinking 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.520 about anything else, and I would have been able to 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.840 manipulate and work my way around you. Believe that any 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:19.240 one of us could have been as real exactly. There's 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.520 a brilliant psychologist who appeared on Surviving r Kelly, doctor 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:28.720 Candice nor Cott. It takes about seven tries for a 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.320 girl to successfully leave her abuser for good. That statistic 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.320 tells us how difficult it is often to pull away 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.200 from these relationships. Thank you for being here. Absolutely, yeah. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.480 I want to ask you to help us understand the 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:49.680 invisible psychological chains that are created. Um. It's specifically on 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.360 an impressionable. Mind, ye, mind, because a lot of the 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.720 women left and came back and just trying to help 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.920 us understand why that happened, because in my mind, I'm like, okay, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.200 once you you're gone, you're done, be done with that. 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:11.280 You know, we see women, but it began the girl 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.640 children and as children, and it's a slow, slow process. 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.160 And in the human trafficking field, they're starting to use 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.960 the term identity distortion. I might call you a different 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:25.520 name and say this is the name I'm going to use, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.200 and so now you're not really who you were. Then 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.000 I'm going to ask you to do different things that 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.360 you normally wouldn't do, and so then you can just 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.040 put on that like, oh well, this is my new identity. 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.360 And so when you start to then shift and get 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.000 programmed into that new person, how do you go back 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.080 from that? You've put in so much, you've done so much. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.360 How can I come back right? How can I come 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.680 back from this? Will accept me after all everything I've done. 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.160 That's very interesting because when I look at Dominique, that 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.040 would be a prime example. It wasn't powerful, but the 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.640 idea that her hair had been shaved tatted us. But 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.720 did you guys not realize. When TMZ was interviewing the 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.360 Savages daughter, nobody realized that was a girl with her. 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.760 They kept saying, Oh, she's by herself, she's out with friends. No, 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.400 it was still a controlling situation because he sent another 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.040 one of his girls with her, So if she did 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.439 try to get away, the other want to get you 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.679 get what I mean? Like nobody like to face each 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.520 other like right, everyone thought that that was a guy. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:31.959 Though that's what I'm changed her identity everything, and oftentimes 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:33.800 that's what happens. Right. Let me tattoo you, let me 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.520 brand you, or let me just make you different. With them, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.480 the person you worse, you can't go back. We had 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.280 like a really big argument one time, me and Rob 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.120 we were talking about breaking up everything. And it only 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.120 was an argument because I had got drunk that night 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.480 and I wasn't supposed to because I didn't speak up much. 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.360 But I got drunk that night. The next day I 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.120 was afraid I didn't know what was going to happen. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.440 He calls me down. He plays a song called I 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.360 Don't Mean It that he had just wrote. So he 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.880 would do things like that, write songs for you Get 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.360 what I mean? Like and you're thinking, oh, this is great. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.559 You don't forgot. Would he just threw water in your 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.040 face and said you're out of here? And you know 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.120 what I mean? But then he comes and does something 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.840 like that, and then you're kind of like, yeah, exactly, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.760 that's exactly, and that's the type of things I know 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.840 he did he would do. Women don't necessarily want the 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.079 relationship to stop. They just want the abuse to stop. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.840 I want to be with this person that was vulnerable 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.320 with me, that shared that love with me. I just 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.240 want him to be nice. I can't an abuse to stop, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.400 and so they'll stay because they're just hoping, and then 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.000 they get those glimpses like you described. Would you say 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.840 that in a lot of these situations that if the 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:45.360 abuse goes unchecked, it will progress. Oh yeah, yeah, I 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.640 mean those even calling somebody out of their name, that's 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.439 a test. Right. Let me see how she's going to 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.600 react to that, right, let me say okay that she 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.400 didn't like that. Let me pull back and just you know, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.920 get her there and then I can use it more often. 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.280 That is so interesting, And you don't know what love 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.080 is when you're younger. You don't know how it's supposed 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:02.520 to look if you've never had it, if you have 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.360 an abuse experience, and then especially if you're a star, 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.240 right and you're inviting somebody into your world, this is 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.960 how it is, right right, And me seventeen dating a 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.280 thirty one year old, like, how would I know what 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.679 dating a man would be like at seventeen? And he's like, 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:19.920 let me tell you so, yeah, and that's what's happening. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:21.840 And that's how I would be thinking that that in 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.080 my head and he, you know, all I could say 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.240 to myself is, well, he's a grown man. He would 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.600 know better than I would, you know what I mean. Now, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.559 that's an interesting point that that you both just brought up, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:38.120 just the idea that you're young, you don't know what 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.200 love is supposed to look like, and a lot of 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.320 us haven't seen very good examples of it in the 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.520 first place, you know. But but I think about just thinking, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.880 I'm listening to you, and I'm just thinking about myself, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.800 because I did have a perfectly beautiful example in front 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.440 of me that I lived with every day. But somehow 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:04.720 I got my head that being beat was a sign 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.160 of love and the amount of love that he had 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.680 for me, Like he wouldn't bother to beat me if 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.720 he didn't love me, Like, I don't know how how 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.800 I ever got that concept in my head? What do 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.720 you think, Dr rcutt? Could we get a quick therapy 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:26.320 session for Gammy? Everything? That the whole thing? And I'm 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.800 glad you brought that up, because one person's experience is 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.040 not everybody's. Right. I have a great relationship with my father, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.000 but how did this happen? Right? I had a great 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.280 role model with a male role model in my house. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.680 And yet and still um and because we're not immune, 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:42.480 we know, you know, there but for the grace of 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.280 God go I and we have there's something called um 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.679 just world fallacy where and the one side of it 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.320 is good things happen to good people. But put that 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.680 on its head, Right, if something bad happens to you, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.719 what did you do? That's her fault? Right, and so 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.600 and so we have to be careful, right. I feel 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.080 like that's what a lot of people like, like the 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.400 negative comments that I'm seeing about the docuseries, it's always 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.959 kind of that mindset of like, oh, if something that 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.120 bad happened, then she must have done something to make 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.920 that come upon her, Like no one in their head 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.920 is like like I'm gonna get Like no one's thinking 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:22.200 they're gonna get abused. Was walking through that door exactly, Lisa. 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.440 Let me ask you, did you feel like someone was 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.800 ever gonna come and save you? Or do you feel 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.160 like everyone just let you down? Were you waiting for that? 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.400 One of the major questions I had when I was 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.160 a child. I know, I used to always say why 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:48.280 didn't they want me? My parents that? Yeah, yeah, that 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:55.760 makes you feel like you're not worth you know, And 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:02.400 I talked to him about that. Do you feel like 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.720 at times he feeled that void for you made you 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.040 feel really worthy and feeling like you weren't worthy and 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.240 you were unwanted that I have got this guy who 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.760 wants me. It was misguided, but you know I thought, yeah, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.160 you know what I mean, But that's what it was. Yeah, 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.480 I did, you know, because I didn't know to not 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.000 have any mail role models. Yeah, you know, you just 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.080 how would you know what the love of a man 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.520 is supposed to be like? You know? So you know 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.960 I was really pushing for it. I wanted it, you know. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.720 So yeah, and I think that's something that is at 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.520 one point that I that I did miss in my 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.880 thinking of this and how naive we can be as 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.160 young women and now you've got an adult who's going 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:59.960 to groom groom your understanding of love from your professional 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.280 no point of view. Do you feel as though that 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.920 people who are abused abused. There are a large majority 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.320 of people that have experiences of sexual abuse that do 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.400 not go on to abuse others. Right, I'd be one, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.560 But there are some that do. The idea of power 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.920 and control getting twisted up with sex for children, and 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.160 so a way that that can happen is it's not 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.200 uncommon for a child to be told that the child 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.360 seduced the adult. Um, it's not uncommon for the child 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.040 to be told, well, you know you liked it because 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.720 of the child had an orgasm, which is an involuntary 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:40.320 physical response with so especially with boys, right, And so 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.440 then then it becomes well, if this is how sex 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.280 is as an adult, I want to be the other guy. 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.560 I want to be the other person, right, And so 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.240 I'm not speaking for everyone's experience, but that's certain one 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.560 one path certainly one pathway because I have to be 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.440 honest and not to justify anything that has happened, but 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:04.720 the fact that he had experienced sexual abuse from a 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:09.040 family member and really shed light on possibly how something 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.840 like this could manifest and happened. And I do believe 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.360 that as a community, these conversations are so important to 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.440 have just to make it okay to just talk, because 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.680 I feel like so many people are suffering in silence 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.600 and are suffering manifests that in the black community, where 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.520 people don't want to seek professional help. Oh yeah, because 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.560 if you go to see a psychologist, then you're crazy. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.480 We all made a lot of really great points, and 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.360 also it's really important to acknowledge that we use the 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:44.160 term adultification right. What we do with girls is that 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.800 when they start developing, we treat them as if they're adults. 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.840 And when you add race on top of that, what 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.120 we know is that we see adolescence and children as 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.800 less innocent Black adolescence for boys it starts at ten, 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.680 but for black girls it starts at five. Then their 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.600 white counterparts. And so when you're thinking about people saying, well, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:04.760 you know, I thought, well, they're grown, so they know 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.119 what they're doing. You know, they're in the studio. You 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.520 know she's standing there seeming like she likes it. We 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.639 as a society are acting like these girls are willing, right, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.119 and we have to own that. We have to recognize 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.000 how we're complicit, right, And it's that because if just 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.520 because we're black women at this table doesn't mean that 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.399 that doesn't seep into our psyches and the way. So 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.200 we have to we really have to keep talking about it. 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.600 I see how that happened with Aaliyah exactly. You know, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.160 even I remember you would hear whispers and stuff, but 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.680 you know, you let you go. Oh, you know, she's 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.440 making a hit songs, she must be Okay, just explain 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.359 to me what that is. Like, I'm trying to understand 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.640 why is that? Have you figured that out? The adult 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:50.400 like at five? Just seeing them as more responsible, less innocent, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.160 more responsible for themselves than their white counterparts. So overall 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.840 black women have seen is more responsible and less innocent. 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.040 And you see that with um judge is not using 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.479 their discretion when they're sentencing. You see that with police 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:10.800 officer resource officers and schools disciplining black girls, and you 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.600 just see it. You know, I think the answer isn't simple, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.840 but it is historic. I feel it's systematic as well, 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:23.240 like systematic and historic, like like that mixture of sexism 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.840 and racism, like combining and becoming this monster. That's just 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:31.520 like that's becoming dehumanizing. And that's and that's how you 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.119 can go for years and see black girls getting abused 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.200 and see black girls being victimized and not really do 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.960 anything about it or say like, oh, that's terrible, right, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.280 it's because you've deemed them now as less than I 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.800 never thought about it like that. I want to thank you. 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.879 I want to thank both of you for coming, and 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.879 I thank you for listening. And let me ask you, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.639 what is something that you want people to know about 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.240 your mother? She's not who they think she is. She's 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.000 a helper, she's a mom, she's a lot of stuff. 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:09.720 And people just aggravating what they say and they don't 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.720 know anything, like oh she's a gold digger, Oh what 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.600 money do we have? Like it's very difficult to heal 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.320 in the spotlight and in front of people. And that's 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.280 why you know, um, you know, every last one of 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:30.879 you that that had the just the courage. It taught 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.640 me so much. It made me have to look at myself. 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.439 Willow and I had some real conversations. My mother and 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.960 I had some real conversations. Everybody's having real conversations because 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.560 of the courage that you guys have had, you know, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:50.080 so it's important because I do believe culturally in our community, 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.720 we got some things to handle, all right, There's so 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.800 much more to talk about, so much. Thank you, thank you. 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.080 We could do it, like I was, like, we can 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:27.560 do five more. Hey, R T T family, Join our 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.080 Red Table Talk group on Facebook and become part of 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.600 the conversation. To join the Red Table Talk family and 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.679 become a part of the conversation. Follow us at Facebook 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.040 dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.879 this episode of Red Table Talk podcast, produced by Facebook Watch, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.359 Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.