WEBVTT - Owen Elliot-Kugell 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.320 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Setts Podcast. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.279 My guest today is Owen Elliott Kogle, who has a 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:23.400 new book, My Mama Cass Owen. Why the book? Why now? 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.720 Well? I wanted to tell my mom's story because she 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.040 didn't live long enough to tell it herself. Why now 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:35.559 I finished it. I've been working on her off and 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.000 on for about fifteen years. It wasn't really intended to 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.279 come out at any special time or anything like that. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.120 It's just happened to me when it's finished, and it 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:51.320 is coinciding with, unfortunately, the fiftieth anniversary in air quotes 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.360 of my mother's passing. So I guess in life there 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:56.720 aren't any accidents, right. 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.360 So you wrote the book without a publishing deal, and 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.040 when you finished it you got a deal. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.040 No, I actually did get a publishing deal, and I 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.000 was hooked up with it with a wonderful agent who 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.360 helped me figure out how to put it in some 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.280 kind of a proposal format. And then we then got 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.480 the deal with Hashet, And at that point I hired 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.720 a collaborative editor named Hope Edelman, who wrote a fabulous 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:28.039 book called Motherless Daughters, enjoying its thirtieth year in publication 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.800 this year, and Hope and I worked together for just 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.360 about half the book, and then I did the second 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.120 half without her, and she and I worked together in 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.160 the fashion that I would write a bunch of stuff 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.720 and it was like a live Google doc, and she 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:43.640 would correct it like a teacher. It was like going 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:44.840 back to school. It was great. 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.040 Okay. One of the points you make in the book 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:54.280 that the rumor that your mother died because she choked 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.440 on a ham sandwich is untrue. What is the true 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.240 story and how did you uncover the truth story? 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.440 Well, the truth is that she had a heart attack. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.960 That is absolutely what the autopsy report states. I found 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.040 out the truth sort of on the by and by 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.320 because I had been friendly with and kept in touch 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.680 with a few of my mom's friends, and one of 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.200 them was a woman named Sue Cameron, who is a journalist. 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.639 And I was at lunch with Sue in like two thousand, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:31.720 I guess, and I remember saying to her, somewhat offhandedly, Gosh, 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.720 you know, I really wish I knew who wrote that 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:40.200 rumor about my mom. And she stopped eating and put 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:41.960 her fork and knife down and looked at me and 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.240 she went, I did it? I said what? And she 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.200 told me that when my mom had passed, that she 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.880 had spoken with my mom's manager, who didn't really know 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.600 what to do or what to say, and whose main 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.840 concern was that people weren't going to lump her in 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.640 with so many of her contemporaries who had passed, you know, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.720 due to drug overdoses, and we didn't know what had happened, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.960 you know, And it really was about giving the family 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.440 and everybody else a little bit of a moment to 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.280 figure out exactly what had happened, which is that she 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.040 had a heart attack due to some really bad eating 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:24.400 habits and perhaps, you know, some damage from having a 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:29.200 lot of fun and partying and questionable substances. I mean, 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.120 it was the sixties and the seventies. You know, it 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:35.920 would be stupid to think otherwise, So okay. 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.880 Her manager was Alan Carr, who has really kind of 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.760 been forgotten in the sands of time, but was a 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:47.400 very flamboyant manager movie producer at the time subsequent to 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.440 your mother's death. Did you have any contact with Alan 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.520 Carr discuss any of this. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.800 I never discussed it with him, although I did meet 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:04.040 him a couple of times in the mid eighties late eighties, 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:08.560 when I first came back out to California, I had 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:13.200 reached out to him and he was, you know, a 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.840 flamboyant man, and I went and hung out with him 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.880 at his house a little bit, and we didn't talk 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.400 about that stuff. Maybe I should have discussed it with him, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.960 but I was just trying to find my feet and 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.440 meet as many people as I knew, knew my mom, 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.520 and I almost I didn't always have like my questions prepared, 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.440 you know what I mean, But I was trying. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:46.880 So in your research for the book, other than the 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.200 ham Sandwich story, what were the most surprising things you 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:52.200 found out? 0:04:53.279 --> 0:05:01.640 Well, I keep reverting back to the discovery realization that 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:07.479 my mom had been really fighting a weight problem most 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:12.480 of her life, and that it had really begun during 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.880 a period of time where she had been staying with 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.159 her grandparents because her new little baby sister was about 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.640 to be born, and my mom had contracted some ringworm 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.640 in some way and that's really really contagious. So she 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.160 was sent to live with her grandparents, who did the 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.800 categoric thing and just fed her all the time, and 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.400 she did what she thought, you know, made them happy, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.840 and so when she returned home a couple of months later, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.760 she was noticeably heavier, and her parents did what they 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.280 believed to be the right thing, and it took her 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.280 to the doctor, and in turn, he did what he 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.520 believed to be the right thing, which was put her 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:03.680 on amphetamine. That discuss was pretty shocking to me, although 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.760 I hesitate to do a lot of blaming, because it's 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.640 all they knew. They didn't have any way of knowing 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.839 that that was going to have a negative effect on someone, 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.760 and I think it did have a negative effect on 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.880 my mom, besides not being able to pay attention in school, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.520 you know, being like all hyper whatever. It really planted 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.080 the seeds of some really negative stuff. You know, first 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.160 of all, if you're being taken to the doctor, something's 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.520 wrong with you, right, And then to be given this 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.840 message of something's wrong with you. Here, take this pill, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.279 it's going to fix you. Those are all really super 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.679 dangerous thoughts to be giving an eight year old child. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.520 So in a nutshell, yeah, that was some of the 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.919 stuff I think that that shocked me, slash surprised me. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:51.679 I think the most. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.400 Okay, I certainly knew your mother's real name was not 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.800 cast but in the book, you explain where can came from? 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:01.960 Can you tell my audience. 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:08.680 My grandfather, Philip was the sort of guy who gave 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.800 nicknames to everybody, and he had given my mother the 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:20.000 nickname Cassandra, after the wild mad Greek goddess Cassandra, So 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.040 he would call her Cassandra all the time, and so 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.960 she adopted that as her stage name and then with 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.800 her as far as her last name was concerned, what 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.560 she told me was that she had that she'd had 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.320 a friend with the last name of Elliott who had 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.320 passed away in a car accident, and that she had 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.760 used that name in order to pay tribute to that person. 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:44.240 I don't know if that's true or not, but that's 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:45.560 what that's what she told me. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.680 Okay, you're born and your last name is Hendrix with 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.760 an icks, not like the guitarist, and explain where that 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:56.440 came from. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.360 Well, one of my mom's first groups that she was 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.240 in was a group called the Big Three. And as 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.440 the name would suggest, there were three people in the band, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.880 two general, two men, and my mom. And uh, this 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.240 was you know, in the early sixties, around the time 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.520 of the draft of the Vietnam War, and they were 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:20.960 singing together and one of the members, Jim Hendrix, got 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.720 the draft notice and it was at a point where 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.880 single men were the number one that were being being 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.360 drafted and if you were married, you were probably going 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.880 to be okay. And my mom and James Hendrix aka 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:43.160 Jim Hendrix were married and a platonic It was a 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.160 platonic move, you know, was to keep him out of 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:51.559 the draft and it you know, Jim says that they 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.840 had a lot of fun with being quote unquote married, 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.440 that they would you know, go places and my mom 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.240 would buy him clothes, and you know that they had 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.200 a great friendship, you know, and remained really really good friends. 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.760 When my mom first came out to California, after the 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.320 moms and papa's had been in the Caribbean Islands and 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.400 really kind of begun to come together, my mom came 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.720 out to California and she stayed with Jim and his 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.840 then wife Vanessa. That's the first place she went, so 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.880 she stayed really close to him. So, yeah, Jim Hendricks, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.839 I will tell you, growing up with the last name 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:33.600 of Hendricks, even with the icks ending, the amount of 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.840 times that people would say to me, oh, I bet 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:41.080 Jimmy Hendricks is your dad, I would go, yeah, see 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.200 the resemblance, right, I mean we look exactly alike. Mean, 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:52.000 come on, people's stupidity knows no bounds, zero bounds. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.440 I believe that I deal with the public all day long. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.719 When did you decide to change your last name? And why. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:05.080 I started using the name Elliot as my middle name 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:11.400 when I got married, because people had a very hard 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:16.040 time understanding why my last name was different than my mom's. 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:21.920 So really, purely for ease, I just kind of, you know, 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.920 put it in my on my driver's license and started 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:30.520 using it so it's not my legal name, which, which 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.280 did you know, prove to have some challenges when I 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.959 went to go get a US passport, because I will 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.000 tell you that my passport does not say Owen Elliott 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.720 Google on it. Thank you US Government. So it was 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.080 for ease. I didn't want to explain every time. Oh, well, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.559 you know, my mom she married this guy, and you 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:53.600 know in. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.240 The derivation of your middle name, Vanessa. 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:03.920 Jim Hendrix's wife, Vanessa, she she she named me after her. 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.680 Okay, with decades of experience, is it a plus or 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.319 a minus? Being the daughter of Cass Elliott. 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.520 Hmm. I will say that it's a double edged sword, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:24.080 that's for sure. I it certainly gets you in the door. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.559 I know that it's certainly, you know, gotten me places 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.760 that other people probably wouldn't be able to get to 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:38.199 as easily. But I also know that when you are 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:43.800 a well, in my case, a second generation performer singer, 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.920 if you choose to go into that same line of 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.400 work that you're that your parent went into, you feel 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.880 a little bit more judged. I think I think you 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.560 that you feel, or I would feel, that you have 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:05.680 to be as good as your predecessor or even better, 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.040 and then it's almost harder to prove yourself. I think 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.000 so in that way, it's a double ed sort. It 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:12.880 gets you in the door, but you have to prove 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.640 it even harder. I think. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.440 So you got in the door. What was your experience 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:20.880 in terms of proving your talent? 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.439 Well, I didn't have too much time before the before 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.160 MCA was bought out by Panasonomy. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:34.080 Not everybody knows the story. Let's roll back a lot 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.520 for it. Let's roll back to the beginning. At what 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.240 point did you realize your mother was cass Elliott and 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.680 she was famous and had fans other than yourself. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.360 Well, certainly by the time I was four or five, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.240 and definitely by the time that I described in the 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.720 book of going to the airport to pick her up 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.720 and seeing her coming out of the doors and just 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.600 running really fasting and and see her and she's waiting 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.920 for me, and in between us someone stepped to and 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.000 to ask her for her autograph, and I knew that 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.760 that was my mom's job, and I knew just to 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.240 hang back that, you know, this was part of her job, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.480 and this was her work, and then if I was 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.800 just patient, it would be my turn. So I guess 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.199 that was one of the first moments that I can remember, 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:29.520 like really knowing that she had this extraordinary job, you know, 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:34.400 that required her to you know sometimes, you know, I 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.080 had that that would have to be her priority over 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.360 over us. But we'd get there. 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:46.120 And of course she was a legendary connector. And you 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.840 write about your experience living in Laurel Canyon. To what 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.679 degree do you remember that experience? 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:58.959 Honestly, not a whole lot. I mean I remember, I mean, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.720 if if we remember, remember that I was seven years 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:07.560 old when my mom passed and had had endured my 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.719 share of you know, I hate to use this work 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:13.440 because I feel like everybody uses it all the time. 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.480 But there had been some trauma in my early life, 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:22.520 and U when you have that, some of those levels 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.640 of trauma, your memories become. You know, you don't really 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.160 have very much of them, but the ones I have. 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.920 I remember watching The Wizard of Oz with her. I 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.200 remember watching football with her. I remember asking her why 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.040 her name why my name was different than hers, Like 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.840 I have sort of these, you know, little bits and pieces. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.040 As far as being in Laurel Canyon. I remember driving 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.880 down Laurel Canyon Boulevard, you know, I remember doing that 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.560 stuff and going into Hollywood with her, and you know, 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.440 being in the back seat and hearing her sing top 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.960 of the world. You know, like those are all really 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.960 strong memories of mine. But it was it was a 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.880 great place to grow up, you know. And and when 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.680 my mom died, I moved in with her sister and 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:12.240 her sister's husband, russe In Leacunkle, and they lived just 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.320 at the top of Nichols Canyon, so they were we 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.640 were very close in terms of how where we lived. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.400 And it was adyllic, you know, I mean, it's it's 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.560 like all those memes we see about, you know, kids 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.400 and Generation X. We were out until the street lights 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.760 came on. True, true, you know, riding our dirt bikes 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.680 and getting into trouble. That's what I remember about growing 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.640 up in rural Canyon is just you know, being on 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:40.080 my dirt bike with my friends. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.720 Okay, you're talking about trauma at a young age. Obviously 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.840 your mother died, that's the most significant trauma. Were you 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:56.440 referencing trauma before that? 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:05.120 Yeah? Unfortunately I had suffered some physical abuse from from 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.880 one of the nanny's. I don't have too much of 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:14.560 a memory of it, but had some pretty wacky dreams 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:20.359 over my life, That's that's for sure. And it definitely 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:27.400 I can see now how that that trauma affected me 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.960 even as an adult. You know, she she made a 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.240 real good practice, this particular woman of telling me how 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.320 how what a bad little kid I was, and that 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.040 that stuff sticks. It just does. Unfortunately, now in. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.480 The book, you reference the bruises on your legs being noticed, 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.720 and that was the turning point with that nanny. Can 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.200 you amplify that story a little bit. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.480 You know, I don't know too much more about it. 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.280 I mean, all I know is that my aunt Liah 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.880 had been staying up in above my mom's garage. There 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:11.919 was an apartment up there. I wasn't totally finished, but 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.880 Leah and her new husband Russ were living in this apartment. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.239 She was pregnant with her son, and she had all 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.280 the windows open because it was really warm, and she 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:26.520 heard this nanny bringing me home from preschool just be 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.919 rating me, you know, And this story came from Leah. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:35.359 Like I said, I don't physically remember this stuff, but 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.080 when Leah told me it, it told me this story 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.119 it definitely and you know, rings a little thing in 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.880 the back of your brain. But this nanny was telling 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.480 me what a terrible kid I was, how bad I was, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.800 I got my dress dirty, and she was just being 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.680 really nasty and really mean. And so Leah said, oh, 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.440 you know what, you can take an extra day off 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.360 this weekend. So she got the nanny out of there, 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.200 and Leah gave me a bath, and she's the one 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:07.399 that discovered the bruises. And then I just, you know, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.639 did what what kids do with in a scenario like that? 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.879 You know, it's nothing I fell, Yeah, I don't think so, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:17.360 you know. 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:22.280 So, okay, you got that story from your aunt Leah 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.280 and you get all these stories. Did the stories tend 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.560 to line up or were their contradictions? 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.720 Well, that particular story, I when I said I had 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.359 a couple of like pretty intense dreams, I should go 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.040 to therapy for some of the dreams, I had hit 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.160 some of the some of the things that I think 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:48.719 that I worked out in the in those dreams. So 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.640 so in that way, I feel like they did ring 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:58.080 true and a lot of times, especially with a painful memory, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.800 when you hear it again, like I make this comment 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.800 about like it like the memory like ringing true in 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:10.000 the back of your brain. That's that's how I know 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.320 a memory is true if I like have some identification 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.120 with it, you know. And and with that particular memory 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:25.080 I did, unfortunately, because she also did things like I 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.359 used to suck my thumb a lot, and she wasn't 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.840 having it. So she was putting like tabasco sauce on 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.480 my thoe. But I'm not a dummy, I know, I 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.320 just you know, wash it off in the in the bathroom. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.879 I remember that, you know. 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.160 So if that was happening, it makes sense that Stuffy 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.800 the other stuff was happening and talking to the other 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.120 members of the mamas and Papa's relatives and friends. 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.200 Was the narrative pretty consistent or do you find one 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.240 person saying one thing and another person saying another thing. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:05.360 The narrative was always consistent, always, and not one person 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.000 ever had anything negative to say. I mean, I don't 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:12.920 know how easy it would be to say something negative 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:18.040 to somebody's kid. But in spite of that, everybody's memory 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:23.080 of hers so Christine. And perhaps it's because she was 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:29.320 thirty two when she passed away. That's still really really young, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:36.919 you know. So she kind of died in this on 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.360 this pedestal if you will, you know, it's you're frozen 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.960 in time at a certain age. You know. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:48.199 So what with all being her daughter and talking to 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.160 so many people writing the book, what do you think 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:52.800 your mother's magic was? 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.160 My mother was the great connector. She was sort of 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.680 one of those people that people wanted to be around, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.359 had a magnetism about her, and she was funny and 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.560 she was smart, and people wanted to be around her. 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.679 So I think that was part of her secret sauce, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.080 is that, you know, people just wanted to hang out 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.960 with her, you know, and she was relatable, she was approachable, 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.280 you know, and she was honest. She was always honest 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.240 and down to earth and like I said, relatable and approachable. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.399 Now, something you touched earlier on her weight and is 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:37.320 also in the book. Conventional wisdom is that she had 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.480 this unrequited love affair with Denny Denny Doherty, one of 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.399 the papas and the mamas and the papas. To your knowledge, 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:49.359 did she ever have a satisfying love relationship. 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.800 No, no, she didn't. And that's one of the greatest 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.240 tragedies of my mother's life, is that she never got 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:01.040 to appreciate or be in a relation relationship with another 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:09.240 human being. That's that's an equal, loving relationship. I just 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.320 I do believe that most of the gentleman callers were 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.840 there for you know, the fame and the money and 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.199 the you know whatever. They weren't there for the for 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.399 the right reasons. And she was. She was lonely, you know, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.240 Like I wrote in the book, she's here, she is sitting, 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.960 you know, on the on the stage apron at Carnegie Hall, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.800 with all these people yelling her name, you know, but 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.760 she's checking into her hotel room by herself. Everybody else 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.680 had somebody, but she didn't, you know, And and therein 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.919 lies the reason that she decided to get pregnant and 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.200 have a kid, because I wasn't going to go anywhere, 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.919 you know, she she'd always she would always have me, 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.160 you know, or a baby, whoever that person would have been. 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:04.080 But so when did you metabolize the fact that your 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:05.800 mother was not coming back? 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:13.639 Probably like three or four years after she died. You know, 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.520 I was really really used to her traveling for her 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:24.760 work because that's what she did, so I kind of 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.199 would console myself, you know those when you're falling asleep 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:29.720 at night and you have all those thoughts that go 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.560 through your through your brain. One of them for me 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.639 was she'll be home. She'll be home soon, because she 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:42.880 always is. I guess probably a few years. It sure 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.440 wasn't right away. It's definitely a few years later. 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:50.800 Okay. You mentioned the fact that your mother had you 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:57.000 to have a companion, so there wasn't a biological father 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:00.760 on the scene. Jim Hendrix wasn't on the scene. Then 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.800 he dies. How much anger do you have about all that? 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.280 Then? Who dies my mom? Well? 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.040 The fact that you know, in retrospect, yes, about your mom, 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:16.479 and then you were ultimately left, you know, alone, I mean, 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:20.400 you have your aunt and her husband, but you look 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:23.080 back and you say, well, this was a performer. She 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.520 had me as a companion and that was good for her, 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.239 and now she's gone. 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:32.560 Well, I guess I never looked at it like that particularly, 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:38.159 but I do remember feeling very much alone when she 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:47.760 died because she was my solo only parent. But I mean, 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:50.600 she was my friend, you know what I mean, Like 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.080 it was just her and I a lot, you know, 0:24:56.320 --> 0:25:04.000 And I do remember feeling very very much like I 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:06.800 was going to have to just have a whole new life. 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:11.920 I remember there being a moment at the funeral when 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:15.000 we were leaving the funeral, remember, and I don't remember 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:17.320 who it was that asked me with somebody that said, well, 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:19.639 what car do you want to ride in? You know, 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:21.720 do you want to ride with your grandmother or do 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.359 you want to ride with your aunt and uncle? And 0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:26.159 I knew that my aunt and uncle were going to 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.879 be my new family. And I remember thinking to myself, 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:35.200 and let's remember this seven year old kid having this thought, well, 0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:37.000 this is going to be your new family, so you 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:42.159 better start getting used to it. I mean, what a 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:47.359 scary thought to realize at that age. And that's really 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:48.840 truly how I felt. 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.720 You know. So you ultimately go to live with Leah 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:57.080 and Russ, who end up having their own child. Did 0:25:57.119 --> 0:25:59.480 they feel like your mother and father are in the 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:01.320 back of them in your mind? Did you always know 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:04.760 they were rising to the occasion. 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.679 Well, you know what, It's interesting because I had to 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:11.720 kind of at an early age make a distinction between 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:15.600 these four individuals. Okay, so stinks about it like that. 0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:20.760 So the mother, the biological mother, and father were my 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:25.359 mom and the guy who fathered me. So that takes 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:29.000 what five, ten, fifteen minutes, that's all that takes. And 0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:32.119 then I have a mom and a dad. Leah and 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:35.160 Russ are my mom and my dad because they did 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.960 the work, they did the job of parenting me. 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:40.600 You know. 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:45.200 So I had to really make those those distinctions, you know, mother, 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:48.600 biological mother, and father and a mom and a dad, 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:54.960 four completely separate people in my ridiculously complicated family tree. 0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:59.280 But ultimately Russ and Leah get divorced. 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:03.800 I know, Russ and Leah then get divorced seven years later. 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:06.600 So I have this weird identification with the number seven. 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:10.480 So the first seven years I'm with my mom, and 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:14.320 then the second seven years I'm with Leah and Russ, 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:17.720 and then after that I'm shipped off to boarding school. 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:19.800 So you know, all that's are off. But yeah, they 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:22.639 Leah and Russ, we had a we had a good 0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:25.359 you know, a few years. We were all. It was wonderful. 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:29.240 We were all it was. We were a family. Russ, 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:31.840 you know, I'm sure you know, is like a rock 0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:36.080 and roll star. I just realized that, like twenty minutes ago. 0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:40.080 He's like one of the best drummers in the world, 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.359 you know. And he was on the road all the 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:45.400 time in the summers. Like we would finish our our 0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:48.640 you know, school year, and he's gone. He was out 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:50.880 with Crosby Stills and Nash, He's out with Jackson Brown, 0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:53.440 he's out with James Dale, or he's just gone. 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:53.639 You know. 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:58.440 And that's when Leah had found that the farm in 0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:02.080 the Berkshires really close to Tanglewood, So when all those 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:05.160 tours were coming through Tanglewood, we'd get to go see 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:08.000 them at Tanglewood like in the summertime. And so I 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:10.359 have a lot of really great memories of that. So 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.760 it was kind of neat to go from one musical 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.760 household to another, right and get to kind of have 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:22.240 this pretty rounded experience, you know, it was it was 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:22.760 really cool. 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:25.240 So you're living in La. 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:26.480 Yeah, and then we go to Massachusetts. 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:29.840 Right, So as a young person, that's traumatic. 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:35.600 What the move to Massachusetts. Yes, you know, it was 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.600 an adventure. I didn't see it as being traumatic at all. 0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:40.680 I mean, it was really like, this is a new 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:45.800 adventure for us. And growing up in Los Angeles certainly 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.000 was way different than growing up in Massachusetts, and it 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:51.920 would give us an opportunity to sort of have a 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:56.960 semi normal, you know life as opposed to being raised 0:28:57.000 --> 0:29:01.280 in this really you know, privilege overprivileged, you know, LA 0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:05.959 private school scene, which is still just as bad, if 0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:09.600 not worse. I'm grateful that we that we got out 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:13.040 of got out of Dodge for for four years, you know, 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:16.920 and I love I love our town in Massachusetts. It's 0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:19.520 still it's still my home. Leah lives there, it's still 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:22.280 my home. I still have my bedroom there. Well, I 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:23.840 mean I don't have my stuff there, but you know, 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:26.200 it's still a big part of who I am. So 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:29.240 I'm super grateful that that we left. I didn't see 0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:30.960 it as being traumatic at all. I mean, yeah, I 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:33.640 did leave some of my friends in a in a 0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:39.360 pre internet, you know, really high long distance phone call era. 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:45.400 It was pretty bad, but you know, I made new friends. 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:55.600 How do they end up sending you to what you 0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:58.040 call a boarding school, but when you read the book, 0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:00.800 it sounds more like a lot institution. 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:05.200 Well, it actually wasn't locked, but they did threaten you. 0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:09.880 You know that particular school was. It turns out it 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:12.040 was actually in the same campus at the school that 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:15.840 Leah had gone to in the sixties where she'd been 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.560 friends with Arlo Guthrie and Chevy Chase had gone there 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.680 and all these It was this very progressive boarding school 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:25.240 at that point, and we drove by it and she's like, oh, 0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:31.120 what's this? You know, And I had had a hard time, 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:35.360 you know, losing my mom was not an easy thing 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.640 for me, and I had a really hard time in school. 0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:41.640 Really didn't like school, really couldn't concentrate in school. I 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:44.440 was floating out the window. I just wasn't I wasn't 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:46.880 able to pay attention at all. And I barely got 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:51.160 through school. And I really in our first year in 0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:57.080 Northampton in Massachusetts, I didn't really attend a lot of 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:01.000 classes and at the end of the year. Lee was like, yeah, yes, 0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:04.480 some got to change here, and she had been told 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:07.080 about this school. Turned out it was on the same 0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:12.600 campus this her old school. Haha, isn't that funny? And 0:31:12.760 --> 0:31:18.120 we went up there and she enrolled me. It was 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:21.160 It was like an institution in a lot of ways, 0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:24.680 although like I said, the doors weren't locked. The consequences 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:27.000 were so severe if you if you left that they 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:30.640 might as well have been locked. But you get you 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:33.560 get into a little bit of a little bit of 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:37.520 what are they called not munch housing bi proxy when 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:41.520 you just feel like you're it was cultish. It was 0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:45.600 cultish for sure. It was a very weird uh school. 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:49.480 And I was there for almost three years. And you 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.959 didn't get to go home. You didn't go home for Christmas, 0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:54.520 you didn't go home for any of those things. So 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:58.479 you were really like locked down, like he said, in 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.880 that way. And that school stayed opened for quite quite 0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:05.200 a long time. It would fall under the category of 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:10.880 the trouble teen industry. Now when that one that you know, 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:14.080 there's schools in Utah, there's schools all over the place 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:17.400 that are markedly worse than than than the school that 0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:21.800 I went to. There's that there's a show on Netflix 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:27.440 right now, the program that's pretty close. It's pretty scary 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:32.240 that that series has been really bothering a lot of people. 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:34.200 I know, we're all still in touch that went to 0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:35.920 that school, and we're all like, oh my god, that's 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:40.080 exactly what it was like. But it was it was 0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:42.840 nice not being in a house where I was Leah 0:32:42.880 --> 0:32:44.480 and I had a really hard time when I was 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:47.600 a teenager. I was probably not the easiest teenager to raise, 0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:49.480 and there was a lot of yelling and a lot 0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:53.320 of screaming and a lot of just bad stuff. And 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:55.760 I was I was actually really happy to not have 0:32:55.880 --> 0:32:58.920 that anymore, and it and it I got to really 0:32:59.000 --> 0:33:01.480 grow up at that point, and I never really went 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:03.440 I did go back and live with her for like 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:06.959 six months, but I mean, really, I left home when 0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:09.120 I was fourteen, if you really want to think about it, 0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:13.600 I was fourteen in boarding school, and when I got out, 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:14.600 I was almost eighteen. 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.320 And you leave and then you ultimately drop out of 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:18.920 high school. 0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:23.840 I dropped out of high school, yes, because the school 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:29.080 that I had then attended for three years was completely unaccredited. 0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:31.880 So every class that I had taken, even though the 0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:34.240 grades had been bad. Every class that I had taken, 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:38.120 none of them transferred. So I went back to my 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:41.080 normal high school and they were like, yeah, you got 0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:44.000 to go back to another year, another year of school 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:46.760 at least. And I was eighteen, and I went, I 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.200 am not doing another year of high schools. I watched 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:53.520 everybody that I had known getting ready to walk down 0:33:53.800 --> 0:33:56.520 and graduate. I was like, yeah, this is this is 0:33:56.600 --> 0:34:01.360 not happening. And so yeah I did. I went down. 0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:05.920 I signed myself out of high school on my eighteenth birthday. 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:10.399 Leah wasn't pleased in. 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:14.680 The ensuing decades not having a high school degree? Is that? 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.000 Have you gotten any penalties as a result of that? 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:19.040 Any roadblocks? 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.680 No? And they actually let me write a book. I mean, 0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:27.560 I don't know. I mean it's funny because I did 0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:32.480 a book signing last night here in La at Diesel 0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:37.239 Books in West LA and I had my old childhood 0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:40.719 friend moon Zappa come in and interview me, and she 0:34:41.280 --> 0:34:43.680 she had just read the book and she said to me, 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:48.759 she said, so, when did you know that you were 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:55.440 a writer? And I went today, It's like this is 0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:58.720 so out of the you know, out of my comfort zone. 0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:03.400 I've you know, it's it's all new to me. You know, 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:08.239 it's beautiful though, it's so fulfilling. It's just everything that 0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:12.400 you hear people say about writing memoir that it's fulfilling, 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:16.000 and it's you know, cathartic, and it's all of that. 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:18.359 It's just it's all of the fields. It really is. 0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:24.680 Okay, you're going to prep school in the eighties, it's 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:29.440 insanely expensive sixty plus thousand dollars today. It was not 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:33.280 that expensive back then, but it was far from cheap, 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:36.000 at least the cost of going to college. Where'd the 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.279 money come from? 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:41.480 Well, I know my tuition was about a third of 0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:48.040 that sixty if that gives you any indication there there 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:51.600 began to be smaller amounts of money that came through 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:56.920 the estate, and Leah was able to pay some of 0:35:56.920 --> 0:36:02.719 it out of her out of her pocket. When this, 0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:08.319 and you'll appreciate this, when the CD was invented and 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:12.960 labels were forced to have their artists, most of them 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:18.200 resign agreements because they were new there were new product, 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:24.279 right that, all of those new CDs that came out, 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:29.680 they saved my mom's estate because everybody rebought every bit 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:33.080 of anything they'd ever had because of this new sound, 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:38.040 everything was so great and CDs just made huge, huge 0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:41.640 leaps and bounds. And because of all that, we were 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:44.920 able to finally get the estate closed in like nineteen 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:50.719 eighty seven. So, you know what, I don't know how 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:52.440 she got the money, but she did it, and she 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:54.839 made it and she I know, there was a couple 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:59.319 of years that I had a scholarship, you know, one 0:36:59.320 --> 0:36:59.960 of those things. 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:04.680 Okay, you talk about the renegotiation. When the music comes 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:09.040 out on CD, most of the revenue from recording goes 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:12.920 to the writer, and your mother was not the writer 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:18.120 of those hits, right, So over these ensuing decades, have 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:22.560 the royalties been small significant? What are they like? 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:27.719 The royalties are respectable and they and they've been they've 0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:31.160 been even more respectable in the last couple of years. 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:36.000 Streaming isn't killing us yet, but it's close, you know. 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.360 It's just streaming is actually the only way that people 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:43.720 are listening to music nowadays. It's just kind of killer 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:48.600 streaming and licensing. Licensing is the other thing that is 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:52.719 our bread and butter commercials, you know, anything that we 0:37:52.760 --> 0:37:55.759 can that we can get. I mean, it's it's kind 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:59.480 of a it's a bit of a dance, because back 0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:02.000 in the old days, the whole idea that you were 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:04.800 going to allow your music to be used for commercial 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:07.879 usage was just like you were selling out. You never 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:11.400 did that. Now it is absolutely the bread and butter 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:14.040 of the majority of these legacy artists is you know, 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:16.480 oh my god, we got a we got an Adobe commercial, 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.560 We've got to you know whatever. So in that way, 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:24.960 it's it is, it's respectable, it's I mean definitely when 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:27.880 the CDs came in, that's what started to make everything 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:31.200 really happen again. And then you know, as as you know, 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:34.680 formats change, and now with streaming, we had to adapt 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:38.399 a little bit to that. But you know, they're they're 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:43.360 sort of paying us on streaming correctly. I get really 0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:46.399 into it. I'm I'm really into the contracts. I'm really 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:51.120 into the business side of it. I just fight it fascinating. 0:38:51.880 --> 0:38:56.080 It absolutely ruined my attitude about ever being an artist 0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:59.560 because I just went, oh my god, they're doing what 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:05.480 did they do? Oh my god? So but yeah, pretty good. 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:10.040 Okay, is there enough money to take care of your bills? 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:17.480 Yes? Yes, so that's good. I'm really lucky. I'm really lucky. 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:19.759 I may have suffered a lot of losses in my life. 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:25.640 Wish I have, but I'm not going to be ashamed 0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:28.759 of the fact that things are okay for me and 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:32.719 I can live a comfortable life. 0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:36.080 Right right, Okay, we've in the last decade a lot 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:39.120 of people have sold those rights. You can sell your 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:44.720 royalty interest. Have you been approached and would you sell? 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:51.880 I was sort of approached maybe ten years ago, and 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:54.640 it was and it was at a point in time 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:59.439 when I was really, really really broke. So the way 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:01.759 the person that approached me, I think was sort of, 0:40:02.800 --> 0:40:05.280 you know, knowing that, and they I think they offered 0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:08.480 me what when they offered it by the royals, I'm 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:13.080 asking my my husband over here three times a three 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:20.319 time multiplier, and we didn't take it, thank God. I 0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:23.040 don't know if I would ever take it. I don't 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:26.640 think I would. I don't think it would because it's 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:30.960 everything is so fluid that it's really really hard to 0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:33.759 make it a judgment as to, you know, well, if 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:36.279 I sell now, is it going to be good? And 0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:38.719 then something really amazing happens in a year and you're like, 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:42.480 damn it, I sold that. Now we have that lottery 0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:45.600 commercial or whatever. It is that. You know, you go, well, 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:46.960 I really wish I would have had something to do 0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:49.160 with that, because then you see this, Then you see 0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:53.399 all these artists songs and music that are on commercials 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:57.160 that you just know that these artists would have never 0:40:57.239 --> 0:41:00.200 agreed to. It's just a lot. There's a lot lot 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:06.200 of taking advantage of those of those catalogs that I 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:10.680 just I can't imagine that everyone feels good about. But 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:12.279 you lose that control when you sell it. 0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:16.799 So you know, your mother made solo albums, some more 0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:20.680 successful than others. Her main success was with the Mom 0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:24.880 is in the Papas. John Phillips wrote most of the songs, 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:28.440 and that's its own vertical and revenue. But there are 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:33.160 four people in the act and three of them have 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:37.920 passed away. So when it comes for a licensing approval, 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.040 how does that work? 0:41:39.840 --> 0:41:42.520 Well, that always goes through the label. That always goes 0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:46.400 through Universal. Universal is the one that approves that stuff 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:51.839 as far as the songwriters are concerned. You know, for 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:53.960 a songwriting license, right, I think it's got to be 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:58.000 licensed by that. For publishing, that gets handled through their 0:41:58.200 --> 0:42:01.200 estate and through their like for instance, John Phillips estate 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:03.799 has you know they handle things through them. They have 0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:07.920 an attorney that handles things. It's it's a bit complicated, 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:08.759 but you. 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:12.359 Know, all these performers have children. How do you get 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:13.719 along with your generation? 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:18.600 I all my crazy brothers and sisters, mamas and Papa's 0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:22.400 brothers and sisters. We all get along great. It's you know, 0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:25.360 we all have this really strange background together. You know, 0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:30.400 I'm very close with with with most of them. You know, 0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:35.680 China and Biju were at my book signing last night, 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:40.279 causing all kinds of trouble in the audience. But yeah, 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:43.560 we're all. We're all really close, you know, Mackenzie, we're all. 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:46.040 We're all. We're like I said, we're all part of 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.759 this weird kind of family, you know. 0:42:50.000 --> 0:42:54.880 Okay Mackenzie certainly you know they're different mothers for John 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:59.560 Phillips's children, but she came out and said some pretty 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:03.359 horrific fixed stuff. In your research, what's your take on 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:04.200 Papa John? 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:08.360 Well, the only research I did on Papa John is 0:43:08.400 --> 0:43:11.719 just the stuff that I knew for myself, and my 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:15.080 experience with John was that he was he was a 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:20.279 sweet guy, you know. I you know, I think I 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:24.200 met John and had conversations with him. I can count 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.800 it on one hand. You know, that's it. I really 0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:34.279 didn't know him very well at all. Mackenzie's assertions or 0:43:34.360 --> 0:43:37.600 McKenzie's assertions, and it's not my business. I don't know 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:38.359 anything about it. 0:43:39.480 --> 0:43:44.400 You talk a lot about his wife, Michelle, who was 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:46.359 in the group and of course kicked out and then 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:48.759 comes back. What's your relationship with Michelle? 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:51.920 Michelle? Michelle was there last night too. There was a 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:55.320 great moment when one of the women in the audience 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:58.600 asked made a comment about the mamas and Papa's not 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:01.840 knowing that Michelle was sitting right there, and she was 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:05.200 talking about how you know how great my mom's voice was, 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:07.520 that was better than anybody else's, and the whole mom 0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:12.600 is in paposita. She's I'm going like this, And then 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:14.880 as I finished, I went, well, well, I don't know, 0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:17.000 maybe you want to ask her yourself, Michelle, why don't 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:21.160 you answer that question right now? So she's she is totally, 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:24.920 she loves it. She's she's enjoying all of it. She's 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:28.400 kind of like the I mean, yes, she was the youngest, 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:30.400 so I guess it makes sense that she's the last 0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:33.920 one alive, right, But she's she's now kind of in 0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:39.800 this position where she's she's kind of looking out after 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:44.960 all of us, you know. I mean, China's obviously her child. 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:49.320 She's she keeps an eye out on all of the kids, 0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:52.920 and I think that's kind of a neat place for 0:44:53.000 --> 0:44:55.360 her to be at this point in her life. And 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.200 she'll be turning well. I don't know if I should 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:01.600 say it, but she has a Mileston on birthday coming 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:06.920 up in the next couple of weeks, and I'm sure 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:08.920 all of us will be there to help her celebrate it. 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:12.000 But she she's she's a really good person. 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:12.920 Michelle. 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:17.160 Michelle is somebody who's been very, very important to me 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:19.080 in my life. 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:28.359 What was your relationship with Denny before he passed? Oh? 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:33.200 God, I love Denny so much. I Uh, I think 0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:41.120 I was probably the closest to him Denny. Uh. You know, 0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:45.120 Denny had done his play in New York City and 0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:48.120 he had been off Broadway for six months. And when 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:53.319 he went back to Canada and he got his requisite 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:58.440 Canadian check up, the doctor went, uh, what have you 0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:02.160 been doing the last six months? He could believe that 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:05.360 that Denny's Denny. This aneurysm they had found around his 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:09.520 heart hadn't exploded, Like he couldn't believe the guy was 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:13.160 like still walking around, you know. And so he had 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:17.840 surgery and he was recovering, and then they had to 0:46:17.880 --> 0:46:22.640 go back in and he was home recovering and he 0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:30.640 didn't make it. And before he went in for the 0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:34.920 second surgery, I was speaking with him on the phone. 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:37.920 We talked all the time. We probably talked, you know, 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:41.400 three or four times a week, anytime anything was going 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:43.560 on for me, if it was mamas and Papa's related. 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:48.680 On the phone. I had trouble in my love life. 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:51.719 My boyfriend broke up with me. I was calling him, 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:54.040 so he was he was that person in my life. 0:46:54.960 --> 0:46:56.839 And so he was gonna have to go back in 0:46:56.880 --> 0:47:00.600 and have the second surgery. And it was the first 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:05.600 time I'd ever heard any any bit of fear in 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:08.560 his voice. It's the first time I could ever identify 0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:14.160 any like trepidation. And our relationship sort of shifted in 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:15.759 that moment, and I sort of realized I was going 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:18.359 to have to be the grown up, right And I 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:23.640 was like, don't worry about anything. I'm I'm a young, 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:26.479 healthy person. I'm going to beat around for a really 0:47:26.480 --> 0:47:28.399 long time. Your kids are not going to be able 0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:31.600 to get rid of me. I will take care of everything. 0:47:32.200 --> 0:47:37.920 Don't worry, you know. And I think that I hope 0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:41.319 that that helped ease his mind a little bit, you know, 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.520 because he has he still had kids that were in 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:45.399 their twenties. I mean they weren't you know, they weren't 0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:48.680 babies or anything, but they were in their twenties, you know. 0:47:48.880 --> 0:47:53.560 And actually I remember being in Canada and reading your 0:47:53.719 --> 0:47:57.480 post that you wrote about him. 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:00.000 He was. 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:06.080 You know that that one hurt. That that one hurt. 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:11.399 Now musically, after the group broke up, your mother had 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:13.800 the most success of all four. 0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:16.600 Mm hmm, yeah she did. 0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:19.320 You know, it's tough to be in the spotlight. Ultimately 0:48:19.360 --> 0:48:22.400 Michelle had an acting career, but it's tough to be 0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:26.160 in the spotlight and then you're not Could you feel 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:31.880 any of that from them. 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:33.640 Not necessarily, And certainly, like I said, John, I didn't. 0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:35.680 I didn't know him, so I can't even really speak 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:40.560 to that at all. Denny was Denny. Denny just kind of, 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:43.960 you know, did his own thing. He had so many 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:46.279 different projects that he worked on over the years, a 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:50.560 lot of projects in Canada. He was he worked on 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:54.040 the show called Theodore Tugboat, the kids show for for 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.799 the Canadian Broadcasting System up there, and and he sent 0:48:57.880 --> 0:48:59.719 me on the hat when I had my little boy, 0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:04.120 he sent me a big box of tugboat tugboat toys. 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:06.920 I think he was disgrateful for everything that, you know, 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.520 he was able to do. I don't think there was 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:15.200 any you know, jealousy or bad you know vibes about it. 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:18.319 I mean, I guess when you're the lead singer in 0:49:18.400 --> 0:49:21.879 a band, it kind of makes sense that you go solo, right, 0:49:22.560 --> 0:49:24.040 isn't that kind of the story of everybody? 0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:28.720 Right? But that was sixty years ago, so these were progenitors, 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:30.520 whereas everything happens now. 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.680 Well then then then she set the pace. 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:37.000 What can I say, Well, I mean, you were seven 0:49:37.160 --> 0:49:39.879 years old. One of the things you do in the book, 0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:42.319 which is very interesting, is you go through all the 0:49:42.400 --> 0:49:47.680 TV appearances which not everybody saw. But your mother was 0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:51.040 constantly in the print news. You reference when she lost 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:53.560 an extreme amount of weight. She would be in the 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:57.960 people's section of Time magazine. She was someone who continued 0:49:58.000 --> 0:49:59.960 to be in the news where the other three didn't. 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:04.120 On well, she wanted to continue to have a career, 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.480 you know, and she was also a single parent. She 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:10.960 had a reason to be out there, you know, trying 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:13.120 to make a living because there wasn't anybody else that 0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:16.520 was doing it, you know. And by that time she 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:20.080 was I was a baby, and she knew she had 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:23.919 to take care of things that needed to be cared for. 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:26.560 You know. That's when she started doing a lot of 0:50:26.560 --> 0:50:30.480 more television appearances, you know, that would kind of keep 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:33.960 her close to home. You know, all of the Carol Burnett, 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:39.160 I mean, she did so much great stick on television. 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:39.960 You know. 0:50:40.320 --> 0:50:42.919 I love all that stuff. I wish I could say 0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:44.919 I think I've seen all of it, but I'm sure 0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:46.839 there's a couple of things I haven't seen, which is 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:47.800 very weird. 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:50.920 But do you listen to your mother's music. 0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:55.840 I do listen to my mother's music. I started to 0:50:55.920 --> 0:51:03.200 really get into the stuff that she recorded after she 0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:09.279 left Dunhill, mostly because this is a brand new deal. 0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:12.040 It was just her. She was going to get to 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:15.720 pick out everything that really she was being, that really 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:20.319 she was she was into, and so those records I 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:23.560 think speak to me a little bit more. When she 0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:25.759 was able to do some more covers, I mean, the 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:31.960 RCA years were some pretty pretty good, pretty good records. 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:36.879 At one point. One of the last records my mom 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.279 made for RCA was a record called The Road Is 0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:42.239 No Place for a Lady. And that record was recorded 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:48.160 in England at Trident Studios, and I remember her taking 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:50.520 me on that trip. That's when my nanny took me 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:53.640 to the Buckingham Palace to watch the guards change and 0:51:53.640 --> 0:51:55.359 I'm like, yeah, this is boring, We're out of here. 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.279 So she so she recorded The Road is No Place 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:03.520 for a Lady in at Trident and the record was 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:07.040 was mixed over there. And when everybody got back to 0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:10.280 the States and and the Lou Merenstein, who was the producer, 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:13.000 went to go and play the record for the label. 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:16.719 He was horrified at at what the mixes sounded like. 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:21.960 They sounded terrible, and he said, you gotta wait. I 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:24.799 gotta go back to England. I gotta go remix these 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:27.560 these songs. The masters are over there. I'll be back 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:29.839 in a week. Promise me, you're not gonna You're not 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:33.680 gonna release the record. Okay, we promised. They were. They did. 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:37.960 They they released the record and it's terrible mixed, or 0:52:38.520 --> 0:52:42.480 you know, terribly mixed fashion. That's what the first pressing 0:52:42.600 --> 0:52:46.960 of that of that record sounded like. And what what 0:52:47.080 --> 0:52:49.840 Berenstein found out when he went back to London is 0:52:49.880 --> 0:52:55.200 that in the interim between the recording of right before 0:52:55.239 --> 0:53:01.120 they started recording the records, that tape head were misaligned 0:53:01.840 --> 0:53:05.600 and they hadn't been adjusted. So the entire record was 0:53:05.640 --> 0:53:10.799 recorded on misaligned tape heads. So that's why it all 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:15.759 sounds like dog duty. So in two thousand and eight, 0:53:17.680 --> 0:53:20.720 one of a small what's the I forget the label 0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:23.719 that so it was a retro one of the retro stations. 0:53:23.760 --> 0:53:27.839 One of the retro CD companies wanted to put out 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:31.000 The Road is no Place for a Lady. And I 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:35.239 had a friend who worked at Sony, and they went 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:40.800 and looked in their vault. And the Sony vault hasn't 0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:46.759 been moved ever. It's in like some cold storage and 0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:52.440 some mountain in Pennsylvania, right, so all their masters are 0:53:53.440 --> 0:53:56.680 in the best shape they can possibly be. They went 0:53:56.800 --> 0:54:03.480 and found the original masters and they found the finished 0:54:03.520 --> 0:54:08.319 mix that was never put on the record, And when 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:11.640 we did the remastering for this project in two thousand 0:54:11.640 --> 0:54:16.160 and eight, we fixed it. We took that old crappy 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:19.719 mix off the first single and replaced it with the 0:54:19.760 --> 0:54:22.800 better mix. So it's almost like it came full circle. 0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:27.280 So it's kind of some of those things that happened 0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:30.200 I think in my life are so cool. What a 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:34.320 great experience to get to fix what was a colossal mistake. 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:40.040 You go deeply into your mother's history growing up in 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:45.080 her family. What do you think was the background such 0:54:45.160 --> 0:54:48.680 that she could have the drive to ultimately get success, 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:51.080 which was unbelievably difficult. 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:55.120 Depression I would call it depression, you know, I mean, 0:54:55.120 --> 0:55:00.560 this is a post at World War two, Emily. You know, 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:06.120 with many many people who have have died overseas. You know, 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:11.239 my great grandmother's, her entire family, with exception of her 0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:14.960 and one other cousin, one of one of her other sisters, 0:55:15.520 --> 0:55:24.920 everyone died in the Holocaust. She she was, she felt 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:28.920 very responsible, my great grandmother. She felt as though she 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:36.799 should have been there. She had. She was severely, severely depressed. 0:55:37.080 --> 0:55:37.400 And. 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:42.319 That kind of has continued, that that we have generational 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:48.600 depression in our family and that nothing is a better, 0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:52.640 you know, like thing to get you out on moving 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.600 and doing is when you're depressed, you got to go 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:57.840 out and do it, you know. And I think that 0:55:57.960 --> 0:55:59.920 was a big part of what caused my mom to 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:05.080 not want to give up, you know. She was. I 0:56:05.080 --> 0:56:08.400 always liken her to the little engine that could. You know, 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:11.520 the children's book, I think I can, I think I can, 0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:15.239 I think I can. You know. And the fact that 0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:18.080 she told everyone I'm going to be the most famous 0:56:18.120 --> 0:56:20.759 fact girl that ever lived. That's the best thing I've 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:23.280 ever heard in my life. I think that's so cool. 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:25.080 And she was right. 0:56:26.680 --> 0:56:28.600 Now, when you read the book and you lay it 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:32.480 all out, it almost seems amazing that she made it. 0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:36.160 There were close calls. She made a couple of records 0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:38.799 with the Big Three. They didn't want her in the 0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:43.520 Mamas and the Papas. It's just it's not exactly luck, 0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:45.760 but most people would have given up much sooner. 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:53.480 Well. She she had this triumph over adversity thing that 0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:58.560 she constantly exhibited. And it's almost like when someone tells 0:56:58.600 --> 0:57:00.560 you no, you almost want to do it more her, 0:57:02.000 --> 0:57:03.960 you know. So I think she probably was of that, 0:57:04.080 --> 0:57:08.720 of that kind of thinking. And I think she also 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:12.120 really knew what I think she knew what she wanted, 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:14.319 and she was just and she just went and got it. 0:57:15.120 --> 0:57:17.440 You know, that's that's the kind of person she was. 0:57:18.600 --> 0:57:22.920 You know, I would love to have that kind of kutzba. 0:57:23.440 --> 0:57:25.160 You know, she just she just didn't give up. 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:28.200 So what did you get from your mother? 0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:36.080 What did I get from my mother? I don't know. 0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:40.960 I'd like to believe that I have some of her 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:51.040 sense of humor. I know that our voices sound very similar, 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:54.400 our speaking voices and singing voices, as with a lot 0:57:54.400 --> 0:57:59.000 of our family. So that's something I got from her. 0:57:59.640 --> 0:58:03.280 Is I have that connection to her, And it's a 0:58:03.280 --> 0:58:08.040 beautiful thing. I mean I I I feel very blessed 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:08.800 by it, for sure. 0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:13.800 Okay, the records were produced by Lou Adler. Do you 0:58:13.920 --> 0:58:16.160 know Lou and have you discussed this with him? 0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:20.640 I do know Lou. I have not discussed the book 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:27.440 with him. I saw Lou the last time at at 0:58:27.480 --> 0:58:32.160 this the induction, the installation of my mom's star in 0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:34.560 the Hollywood Walk of Fame. He was one of our 0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:38.840 guests that day, and he actually he pulled like the 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:45.600 perfect Lou Adler move without like barely even trying. We 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:48.840 had we had assembled like this big list of people 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:51.919 who had written nice things for us to say at 0:58:51.920 --> 0:58:54.560 the at the ceremony, and we were trying to assign 0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:57.600 and we had all these we had Graham, we had Uh, 0:58:57.880 --> 0:59:01.480 we had Stephen Stills, we had and we had to 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:05.120 a quote from Crosby. We had quotes from just everybody 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:08.760 and their mother. And we were trying to figure out, okay, 0:59:08.760 --> 0:59:10.920 well you'll give two of these quotes to Michelle, and 0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:17.600 this person does that, and then Lou Adler goes, why 0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:20.960 don't you just have Stephen Stills read the Crosby and 0:59:21.080 --> 0:59:25.200 Nash and I went, oh my god, that's genius, And 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:28.240 that's what we did. So Still's got up there and 0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:32.520 read quotes from his whole band, you know, and it 0:59:32.600 --> 0:59:35.240 was just like this genius moment. We would have never 0:59:35.320 --> 0:59:40.160 thought to do that take somebody like Lou Adler to go, oh, well, 0:59:40.160 --> 0:59:41.960 that's really obvious that should go there. 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:47.200 Like, oh, okay, in the book you say you're very 0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:52.200 tight with Carnie Wilson. How is it? You know, you 0:59:52.280 --> 0:59:54.480 make it sound like it's a club and you're a 0:59:54.600 --> 0:59:58.320 member of it. You know, all the sons and daughters 0:59:58.440 --> 1:00:03.040 of the famous perform Was that just the nature of 1:00:03.080 --> 1:00:05.800 growing up in La was that because you were cass 1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:09.440 Elliott's daughter, was that your personality. How did you end 1:00:09.520 --> 1:00:10.560 up knowing everybody? 1:00:11.000 --> 1:00:13.960 I think it's growing up in LA. It's growing up 1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:19.600 in LA the child of somebody who's well known in 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:23.240 the entertainment industry. It's all about where you were going 1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:25.480 to school, you know. I mean, I was going to 1:00:25.480 --> 1:00:29.360 school with kids whose whose parents were very well known. 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:32.160 And also, you know, going to school with the guy 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:35.360 who wrote the theme song from Law and Order, You 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:38.200 know what I mean. So we all just knew each 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:42.760 other because we were going to the same schools, same 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:43.680 birthday parties. 1:00:45.000 --> 1:00:47.880 Just backing up, you talk about depression in the family. 1:00:47.920 --> 1:00:50.600 Are you depressed? Oh? 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:55.520 Probably? I don't know. I think it's wearing off a 1:00:55.520 --> 1:01:00.400 little bit generation a generation. Am I prone to it? Probably? 1:01:01.760 --> 1:01:06.000 But I also know that if I have fits of depression, 1:01:06.480 --> 1:01:08.480 you know what I've had. I've had some pretty shitty 1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:11.120 things happen in my life, So I can appreciate that 1:01:11.320 --> 1:01:13.800 and and you know, get myself out of it. 1:01:21.280 --> 1:01:24.560 So you have kids. Was there any doubt about having 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:28.840 kids because of your upbringing? And to what degree was 1:01:28.880 --> 1:01:33.120 your raising of your kids informs by your growing up experience. 1:01:34.640 --> 1:01:41.120 Well, I never had any trepidations about having children. I 1:01:41.160 --> 1:01:48.560 always knew that I that I wanted to. Uh. It's 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:51.440 funny because one of the conversations I was having with 1:01:51.520 --> 1:01:54.480 moon Zappa in the last week or so, uh, and 1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:58.000 and also with with Ahmet I did the podcast of them. 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:01.840 We were talking about, you know, our parents being these 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:08.920 sixties people, right, they they let us have so much freedom, 1:02:10.400 --> 1:02:15.720 way too much freedom, and all we really ever wanted 1:02:16.400 --> 1:02:20.600 was structure. And they really thought, well, they're doing us 1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:22.800 this great favorite. Let them be free, go out do 1:02:22.920 --> 1:02:27.320 your thing, you know. And it turns out that most 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:35.600 of us ended up creating completely fifties style homes and 1:02:35.760 --> 1:02:41.720 marriages and children and lives like really super stable, you know, structured, 1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:47.200 scheduled things because we didn't have any of that, you know, 1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:49.160 and they really thought they were, you know, doing the 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:54.080 right thing. Probably not. Most of us really needed to 1:02:54.440 --> 1:02:57.959 have a little more structure, you know. And that's that's 1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:02.439 one thing that you know, they really, like I said, 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:04.520 they really thought they were doing the right thing. But 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:07.120 in the long run, I think it was we probably 1:03:07.120 --> 1:03:08.680 would have done better with more structure. 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:12.520 So it's kind of like family ties, But what are 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:14.080 your kids up to these days? 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:19.640 Well, my daughter is going to graduate from cal State 1:03:19.680 --> 1:03:25.360 Northridge in the winter, just two classes to to take 1:03:25.400 --> 1:03:28.800 and they wouldn't let her walk come on. So they're 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:30.800 going to make her take two more classes in the winter, 1:03:31.560 --> 1:03:36.360 and she's going to have a degree in education so 1:03:36.440 --> 1:03:38.880 that you know, she can go get a job teaching 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:47.240 anywhere anytime. Our son is the one kid that got 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:50.560 bitten by the music business bug. Did I think I 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:53.520 was going to escape it entirely? I don't know. He 1:03:54.120 --> 1:03:56.360 wants to be a recording engineer. Well, he's actually is 1:03:56.400 --> 1:03:59.640 a recording engineer, and he spends a lot of time 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:04.000 in his studio. And I raised a studio rat. What 1:04:04.080 --> 1:04:07.640 can I say? One out of two ain't bad, you know, 1:04:08.520 --> 1:04:10.560 but they're great. My son is twenty two and my 1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:13.800 daughter is turning twenty five. I married a guy in 1:04:13.840 --> 1:04:17.880 the music business again, big shocker. My husband is a 1:04:17.920 --> 1:04:21.960 songwriter record producer. He's one of the founding members of SONA. 1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:26.240 If you know who Sona are songwriters of North America. 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:32.480 He's you know, you marry close to what you know? 1:04:32.680 --> 1:04:36.600 I guess you know. And we all created all of 1:04:36.680 --> 1:04:43.520 us kids, China and Billie Carney and Wendy, we all 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:51.200 you know, created kind of the homes that we didn't have, right. 1:04:52.400 --> 1:04:57.200 Okay, so you were in the group, which ultimately became 1:04:57.400 --> 1:04:59.960 Wilson Phillips, and then you weren't in the group. 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:05.560 Yes, that is a pretty accurate statement. The way it 1:05:05.600 --> 1:05:09.440 worked was that when I first came to La we Are, 1:05:09.480 --> 1:05:12.040 the world had just been like that huge record that 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:15.040 it was, and I thought, Wow, that is so cool. 1:05:15.120 --> 1:05:18.560 You know, people coming together for a common cause. That's 1:05:18.640 --> 1:05:21.960 really cool. And I thought, well, maybe we should, I said. 1:05:22.080 --> 1:05:24.240 I thought to myself, I know all these kids, you know, 1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:26.000 like we were just talking about we all went to 1:05:26.040 --> 1:05:29.080 the same schools. We know all these kids, and maybe 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.960 we could, you know, do a charity record against drugs. 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:35.920 You know, all these sixties kids talking about drug abuse. 1:05:36.160 --> 1:05:38.800 Let's do that. And I called China and she thought 1:05:38.840 --> 1:05:41.000 it was a pretty good idea. And we called a 1:05:41.000 --> 1:05:44.000 bunch of people and they turned us down. We called 1:05:44.040 --> 1:05:46.920 moon Zappas she turned us down. She doesn't remember. Donovan 1:05:46.960 --> 1:05:50.560 Leitch turned us down. IONI Sky turned us down. And 1:05:50.600 --> 1:05:53.000 the only people that wanted to do anything were Carnie 1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:56.200 and Wendy Wilson, who I had gone to school with 1:05:56.280 --> 1:06:01.320 him at Oakwood when I was still living in and 1:06:01.960 --> 1:06:07.000 so we all started singing together, and we started doing 1:06:07.040 --> 1:06:11.120 some demos for Richard Perry back in the olden days, 1:06:11.560 --> 1:06:17.040 and it just didn't work out. You know, I I 1:06:18.840 --> 1:06:22.960 don't know how to blend. I really sing really loud, 1:06:23.440 --> 1:06:27.640 and I just kind of overpower people and I don't 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:31.760 think that's a really good thing in a harmony group. 1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:35.320 And so things just didn't work out, and they went 1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:38.640 their merry little way, and of course had the success 1:06:38.680 --> 1:06:43.200 that they had, which was huge. But it came really 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:46.919 a full circle when they when they made their record California, 1:06:47.000 --> 1:06:51.840 which was oh no, dedicated, sorry, dedicated, which was all 1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:54.840 which was a whole record dedicated to the music of 1:06:55.240 --> 1:06:57.920 the Mamas and Papas and the Beach Boys. And they 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:01.800 asked me to come in and sing on dedicated and 1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:04.760 saying the part that was kind of known for my mom, 1:07:04.840 --> 1:07:07.320 and so I did, and you know what, it kind 1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:11.360 of it really closed that circle. It really closed into 1:07:11.440 --> 1:07:16.640 a nice full circle moment. And so we're all, it's 1:07:16.680 --> 1:07:19.960 all good, we all, we're all really close. 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:24.280 Okay, that's thirty five years thirty four. I was there 1:07:24.360 --> 1:07:28.840 at their debut at SBK Records in the Desert. Oh yeah, 1:07:29.400 --> 1:07:33.480 you must have. That must have been very painful to 1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:34.280 be left out. 1:07:34.760 --> 1:07:38.600 Oh my god, I was so upset. I was so upset. 1:07:39.240 --> 1:07:41.480 I didn't know what I was going to do. I 1:07:41.600 --> 1:07:48.240 was so mad. I was so upset. But I just 1:07:48.400 --> 1:07:50.880 kind of went, Okay, well, now I got to figure 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:54.640 out what I'm going to do. And eventually I was 1:07:54.680 --> 1:08:00.640 able to get a demo tape together, and uh, I had. 1:08:00.720 --> 1:08:04.880 I had been managed by a guy named Roy Silver 1:08:05.720 --> 1:08:08.680 who had actually managed my mom back in the Big 1:08:08.760 --> 1:08:12.560 Three Days, and he had he was sure he could 1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:17.680 get me a deal, and he oh, he started to 1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:20.400 be very controlling and like tell me what to where 1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:24.639 and I that was not gonna fly with me. And 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:27.840 I really didn't like being told what to do very. 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:28.639 Much at all. 1:08:29.120 --> 1:08:33.439 So I ended up firing him. And then a year later, 1:08:33.680 --> 1:08:37.760 Wilson Phillips comes out and they're a huge success, and 1:08:37.840 --> 1:08:42.400 so he went ahead and without checking with me, sent 1:08:42.439 --> 1:08:47.559 the tape out and got me a deal. I was like, oh, great, 1:08:48.720 --> 1:08:51.240 And so I ended up having a deal with mc 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:54.839 A well with a production company that was tied to MCA, 1:08:55.479 --> 1:08:58.400 and I made half a record for them, and then 1:08:58.680 --> 1:09:03.240 Matt Sacheetah bought the Panasonic and just cleaned the roster, 1:09:03.600 --> 1:09:07.320 you know, just poured some chlorox on it and cleaned 1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:10.360 it up. And I was part of part of the 1:09:10.400 --> 1:09:12.800 people who they let go. And then I said, you 1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:15.680 know what fun ghoul music business. I don't need this. 1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:20.840 And then I ended up getting married and you know, 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:24.960 living my life. I figured I'd go back to it 1:09:25.000 --> 1:09:26.160 if it was meant to be right. 1:09:27.280 --> 1:09:33.960 So how hard was it to give up the dream? 1:09:34.040 --> 1:09:37.400 Really hard. I think I probably still have it in 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:41.400 some ways. You know, I sing like a maniac in 1:09:41.439 --> 1:09:43.720 my car, so I think I get it out that 1:09:43.800 --> 1:09:50.120 way and getting to you know, occasionally perform with the 1:09:50.160 --> 1:09:53.519 girls when they do shows around town. But yeah, it's 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:57.160 not an easy one, that's for sure. And that was 1:09:57.200 --> 1:10:00.240 a big fear that I would really regret, you know, 1:10:00.760 --> 1:10:05.840 not pushing myself harder. But I also really just wanted 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:09.360 to have a normal life, you know, and I had 1:10:09.439 --> 1:10:11.919 just gotten married, and I just wanted to have babies 1:10:12.000 --> 1:10:17.040 and be a mom and you know, have that be 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:18.960 my life for a while. And then I figured if 1:10:19.000 --> 1:10:22.599 it was really something that I was meant to do, 1:10:22.800 --> 1:10:25.040 then you know, there would be a way at some 1:10:25.160 --> 1:10:29.800 point that I'd be able to to sing and love 1:10:29.880 --> 1:10:34.240 doing it, you know, but I get older and it's okay. 1:10:35.800 --> 1:10:42.400 Can we talk any of this up to sexism? 1:10:42.520 --> 1:10:45.960 M I don't think so, because I think if I 1:10:46.000 --> 1:10:48.559 had smelled that I would have I would have lost 1:10:48.600 --> 1:10:52.960 my mind. I'm pretty in tune with that kind of stuff. 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:56.800 So, now that you've finished the book and your kids 1:10:56.840 --> 1:11:00.320 are on the way, what's the plan for all your time? 1:11:00.640 --> 1:11:02.720 Oh my god, I have no idea. I haven't even 1:11:02.760 --> 1:11:07.800 it's terrifying to even think of. I'm not sure yet. 1:11:08.720 --> 1:11:12.479 We actually had we'd had to put our sixteen year 1:11:12.520 --> 1:11:15.200 old dog down last week because you know, timing is everything, 1:11:16.080 --> 1:11:20.160 and my husband and I realized that we have spent 1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:24.160 the better part of the last thirty two years either 1:11:24.200 --> 1:11:27.000 taking care of a puppy or a baby or somebody 1:11:27.080 --> 1:11:31.519 or something, and we'd like to, you know, go travel, 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:34.920 we'd like to, you know, go and do some things together. 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:37.680 Kids are old enough we can kind of get to 1:11:38.160 --> 1:11:40.120 have a moment. So I think that's kind of what 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:42.160 I'm what I'm going to do in the immediate future. 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.160 And then I don't know, we'll see. 1:11:46.760 --> 1:11:50.599 There's another theme in the book about your biological father. 1:11:50.800 --> 1:11:54.000 Can you tell us something about that Chuck Day. 1:11:56.360 --> 1:11:58.760 Well, he was certainly somebody that I felt like I 1:11:58.800 --> 1:12:02.599 would appreciate more or after he had passed away, which 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:09.560 actually is the truth. Chuck Day was born in Illinois, 1:12:09.680 --> 1:12:13.880 in Chicago, and he was a blues guy. He had 1:12:13.960 --> 1:12:17.200 he actually had his first record put out when he 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:21.959 was fifteen years old on a label called Federal Records 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:26.519 under a name Underheath, his name Bang Day. His real 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:29.320 name was Chuck Day, but his stage name was Bang Day. 1:12:31.000 --> 1:12:32.840 And he was kind of a little he was kind 1:12:32.880 --> 1:12:35.639 of a you know, protege in in that way, and 1:12:37.880 --> 1:12:42.000 his childhood and his upbringing had their own, you know story, 1:12:42.160 --> 1:12:44.519 and we don't have to get into that now. But 1:12:45.960 --> 1:12:48.400 he had a kind of a rough, a rough beginning, 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:55.360 and he ended up coming to LA and with I 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:58.639 think with Johnny Rivers because he was playing with Johnny 1:12:58.760 --> 1:13:02.880 Rivers and he had he says that he wrote the 1:13:02.920 --> 1:13:07.040 opening riff to Secret Agent Man and that he had 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:09.799 based it on the TV series Tommy, on the Tommy 1:13:09.800 --> 1:13:15.360 gunn Uh TV series. He maintained till till he died 1:13:15.439 --> 1:13:21.680 that he had written that that piece and he had been, 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:25.040 like I said, working with Johnny Rivers and Johnny Rivers 1:13:25.160 --> 1:13:28.519 had a relationship with Lou Adler in that whole camp, 1:13:28.600 --> 1:13:32.360 and so my biological father ended up playing on some 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:36.360 Moms and Papa's records, like second Guitar, And when they 1:13:36.439 --> 1:13:40.320 were tapped to do a tour, they chose to take 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:46.360 him out to play guitar on their tour, and it 1:13:46.520 --> 1:13:51.160 was a one night stand my mom and the bass player. Oh, 1:13:51.200 --> 1:13:53.200 I guess he was playing bass at that point. My 1:13:53.280 --> 1:13:56.679 mom and the bass player went back to her room 1:13:57.080 --> 1:14:01.160 at the hotel and had a lot of Chinese food 1:14:01.360 --> 1:14:05.839 and alcohol. And that was the night I was conceived. 1:14:05.840 --> 1:14:09.759 And I did find that out after I met him finally, 1:14:10.040 --> 1:14:15.639 in I guess it was probably eighty six or eighty seven. 1:14:15.760 --> 1:14:18.559 I met him for the first time, and Michelle Phillips 1:14:18.640 --> 1:14:23.759 was instrumental in me meeting him. I had had dinner 1:14:23.800 --> 1:14:26.840 with Michelle and John and Danny right after I had 1:14:26.880 --> 1:14:31.720 come to California in eighty six, and Michelle drove me 1:14:31.760 --> 1:14:34.160 home that night and I said to her on the 1:14:34.240 --> 1:14:36.880 drive home, g you know, I wish we could find 1:14:36.920 --> 1:14:39.960 out who my real father was because I had always 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:43.160 wondered because my mom really didn't tell anybody. She took 1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:46.880 that secret right to the grave, or at least I thought, 1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:50.759 because Michelle said that when she and Danny and John 1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:53.799 had been in the car driving to the Imperial Gardens 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:57.680 in LA that she had said to them, gee, you know, 1:14:57.720 --> 1:15:00.880 we never found out who Owen Vanessa's dad was, and 1:15:00.920 --> 1:15:03.519 that John and Denny like immediately shot each other a 1:15:03.520 --> 1:15:07.639 look of like knowing, like, oh, you don't know, do you? 1:15:08.080 --> 1:15:10.320 She was like, wait a minute, what do you guys know? 1:15:10.680 --> 1:15:15.719 They knew his name? So I asked her to help 1:15:15.800 --> 1:15:21.439 me find him, and she had her secretary put an 1:15:21.479 --> 1:15:26.000 ad in what was Musician magazine at the time, sort 1:15:26.040 --> 1:15:29.559 of this you know, generic ad of you know, Chuck Day, 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:33.200 old bass player for the Mamas and Papa's call this number. 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:36.280 Kind of made it seem like there was money or something, 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:41.000 and like within a day one of his friends was calling, oh, 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:46.080 is this about the kid? Well, so it turned out 1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:51.200 that he knew about me, and he had met me once, 1:15:54.120 --> 1:15:57.760 and that he had, you know, really adhere to what 1:15:57.800 --> 1:16:02.479 my mother had requested, which was don't come back and 1:16:02.760 --> 1:16:05.280 you're not her father, don't ever tell her that you are. 1:16:08.040 --> 1:16:11.280 I did find out from him after I had met him, 1:16:11.840 --> 1:16:14.280 spoken to him a couple of times that he had 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:18.599 come to the funeral and that he had stood across 1:16:18.640 --> 1:16:23.799 the street. Oh. I got so mad, because I wondered 1:16:23.800 --> 1:16:29.559 about him for years. He had just had the balls 1:16:29.640 --> 1:16:34.800 to walk across the street, right And by the time 1:16:34.840 --> 1:16:43.640 I met him, he was pretty pretty well into his alcoholism. 1:16:44.640 --> 1:16:51.280 It wasn't pretty. And he had started talking to the 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:54.280 press up near where he lived. He lived in Fairfax, 1:16:54.439 --> 1:16:58.519 Marine County, and he started telling the newspapers that he'd 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:02.439 had a child with Mama Cass, Like, dude, don't do that. 1:17:04.479 --> 1:17:06.400 And it was right around the time I was pregnant 1:17:06.439 --> 1:17:08.720 with my daughter, and I just went, I don't. I 1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:11.160 don't really want to have anything to do with him. 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:13.679 So I cut off contact for a really long time, 1:17:14.160 --> 1:17:16.080 but I did. But I did see him at the end. 1:17:16.320 --> 1:17:21.320 Towards the end of his life, the social worker from 1:17:21.479 --> 1:17:24.839 the hospital he was in reached out to my mom's website, 1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:27.320 and I couldn't help myself. I had to. I had 1:17:27.360 --> 1:17:30.439 to see him one more time, you know, and set 1:17:30.479 --> 1:17:34.160 it straight, you know, And I showed him pictures of 1:17:33.880 --> 1:17:37.040 art of his grandchildren that he was never ever going 1:17:37.080 --> 1:17:39.360 to meet over my dead body, was ever going to 1:17:39.400 --> 1:17:42.840 meet him, but I thought that he deserved at least 1:17:42.840 --> 1:17:46.360 to see them and see pictures. So I mean it 1:17:46.720 --> 1:17:52.000 was I definitely felt like we had, you know, sewn 1:17:52.040 --> 1:17:54.559 it up, you know, that I had I had said 1:17:54.600 --> 1:17:56.719 what I needed to say, and that he had said 1:17:56.720 --> 1:18:00.080 what he needed to say. And but through him, I 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:02.320 did find out that I had I had more family, 1:18:03.080 --> 1:18:06.280 you know. So I got to have a little relationship 1:18:06.360 --> 1:18:09.760 with a woman who was my older sister, you know. 1:18:09.760 --> 1:18:11.960 I got to know her for a few years. So 1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:15.400 there were some there were some minor gifts, you know, 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:16.360 along the way. 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:21.040 But yeah, what a trip, Okay, other than all the 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:26.280 emotional considerations. Now, when you hear stories similar to this, 1:18:27.000 --> 1:18:31.599 people meet the biological relative and they say, oh I 1:18:31.720 --> 1:18:33.840 look like that, or I yeah like that. 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:38.160 Oh that happened. That happened the minute, the minute he 1:18:38.240 --> 1:18:43.000 walked in and I looked at him, it's like you 1:18:43.040 --> 1:18:48.040 can feel it's almost like an electrical current. It's it's 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:53.040 you just know that this DNA is yours. You just 1:18:53.200 --> 1:18:58.679 know it. And I got this nose from him. This 1:18:58.760 --> 1:19:01.800 is not a Jewish nose. This is my nose. It's 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:03.880 always been my nose. It's not the work of any 1:19:03.920 --> 1:19:08.160 plastic surgeon. It's the work of having a Swedish and 1:19:08.280 --> 1:19:13.679 Scottish birth father, you know. And he had the same nose, 1:19:13.880 --> 1:19:19.799 only larger of course. And my son got this nose. 1:19:21.000 --> 1:19:23.920 Why my daughter didn't get this nose, Why she got 1:19:24.080 --> 1:19:29.320 the requisite Jewish schnas and not this. Never know why 1:19:29.320 --> 1:19:33.680 that choice was made by whomever. But yeah, my sons 1:19:34.080 --> 1:19:38.640 has this, and it's true. You just know. You feel it, 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:42.759 whether you want to or not. I wasn't really happy 1:19:42.760 --> 1:19:47.880 about feeling like, oh yeah, that you're not the Knight 1:19:47.920 --> 1:19:53.080 in Shining Armor. I had fantasized in my brain, you know, 1:19:54.680 --> 1:19:57.240 a little bit of a disappointment. But like I said, 1:19:57.280 --> 1:20:01.200 there were a little bit of you know, silver linings, 1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:03.800 got to meet some family, got to know a little 1:20:03.800 --> 1:20:04.400 bit of history. 1:20:06.760 --> 1:20:12.680 Talking with you, you seem, despite all of these traumas, 1:20:12.760 --> 1:20:17.160 as you labeled them in ups and downs, pretty well adjusted. 1:20:17.600 --> 1:20:19.719 Would you agree with that or would you say, beneath 1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:21.720 the surface you have no idea what's going on? 1:20:22.320 --> 1:20:24.840 Well, maybe a little bit of both. I had a 1:20:24.960 --> 1:20:30.240 lot of therapy in my life and I can attribute 1:20:30.280 --> 1:20:38.360 a lot of my seeming mental health to that. And yeah, 1:20:38.400 --> 1:20:42.480 I'm also not normal. You know, I can get completely 1:20:43.280 --> 1:20:45.599 when I get mad about something. Oh it's not good, 1:20:47.560 --> 1:20:50.640 but I'm pretty well adjusted and I'm not embarrassed to 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:50.960 say it. 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:56.000 You know, Okay, you're in Massachusetts living with your aunt 1:20:56.160 --> 1:21:00.280 and then ultimately going to this school. Yeah, do you 1:21:00.400 --> 1:21:04.000 feel special and you tell people your cass Elliot's daughter 1:21:04.720 --> 1:21:07.040 or you stay silent and all of a sudden the 1:21:07.080 --> 1:21:07.879 word spreads. 1:21:08.720 --> 1:21:12.680 I stay silent. I stay silent. I don't don't. I 1:21:12.680 --> 1:21:17.719 don't usually tell people. Eventually they'll find out, but mostly 1:21:17.720 --> 1:21:19.040 I want to find out if they want to hang 1:21:19.080 --> 1:21:25.640 out with me for me or you know, want to 1:21:25.680 --> 1:21:28.680 know something about my mom, because I had experienced that 1:21:28.760 --> 1:21:33.320 a lot, so and any kid of any celebrity is 1:21:33.320 --> 1:21:39.320 going to feel the same way. You have a almost 1:21:39.360 --> 1:21:42.439 like a sixth sense. You have to sort of develop 1:21:42.479 --> 1:21:46.439 it because you just never know why somebody wants to 1:21:46.479 --> 1:21:51.280 be your friend. So keeping you know, your business to 1:21:51.320 --> 1:21:55.759 yourself is usually the first plan of attack. And eventually 1:21:55.760 --> 1:21:59.160 they're going to find out anyway, But by then I 1:21:59.240 --> 1:22:01.040 might know whether or not, you know, they actually want 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:04.640 to hang out with me or have some kind of 1:22:04.840 --> 1:22:07.719 you know, weird ulterior motive. 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:15.559 So how important to you is your mother's legacy and 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:17.960 she and her music being remembered. 1:22:21.880 --> 1:22:28.680 Oh, it's it's hugely important to me. I think that 1:22:28.960 --> 1:22:32.559 one of the things that most people experience, or a 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:35.920 lot of people experience when they listen to my mom sing, 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:39.960 is they they get a little sense of hope. People 1:22:40.000 --> 1:22:44.320 people really get kind of built up, and it gives 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:47.559 them some kind of you know, faith in humanity because 1:22:47.560 --> 1:22:52.200 she's she's she's she sounds happy. The songs that she 1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:59.240 recorded were really good, positive songs, you know, and I 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:02.280 think she would want to be remembered like that. And 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:06.559 I've always felt that it would be my job to 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:09.320 make sure that that's what she would be remembered for 1:23:10.160 --> 1:23:18.120 and not the sandwich thing, you know, and that she 1:23:18.200 --> 1:23:24.280 will be remembered for, you know, her body positivity stuff, 1:23:24.320 --> 1:23:26.960 even though she didn't all the time feel so positive 1:23:27.000 --> 1:23:30.639 about it. You know, what she'd let other people see 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:34.439 was that she was totally comfortable in her skin. You know. 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:39.040 All of these things I think are really important part 1:23:39.040 --> 1:23:41.400 of her legacy and things that it's important to me 1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:42.800 that people remember about her. 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:49.080 And are you passive in terms of universal does the 1:23:49.120 --> 1:23:53.160 licenses or to what degree do you actively other than 1:23:53.200 --> 1:23:56.040 the book, try to keep her memory and music live. 1:23:57.280 --> 1:24:01.679 Well, we have no rights as the artist. You don't 1:24:01.680 --> 1:24:04.360 have any rights to say yes you can license it 1:24:04.479 --> 1:24:07.400 or no you can't. I mean, sometimes labels are nice. 1:24:07.439 --> 1:24:10.679 If you meet the right person who's running that particular 1:24:10.800 --> 1:24:13.679 department and they want to be nice to you, they 1:24:13.800 --> 1:24:16.679 might tell you what's going on. But you often don't 1:24:16.720 --> 1:24:18.559 really have a choice. You have to sort of trust 1:24:18.560 --> 1:24:21.840 that the that the relationship between the person who's doing 1:24:21.880 --> 1:24:25.120 the licensing and you know that that that they know 1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:29.800 what you guys would want. So unfortunately, we don't really 1:24:29.840 --> 1:24:33.080 get too much control over it, and you just hope 1:24:33.080 --> 1:24:35.439 that they're going to make the right choice on what 1:24:35.479 --> 1:24:39.160 they're gonna, you know, sell the music for I forgot 1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:40.880 the second part of what you asked. I'm so sorry. 1:24:40.960 --> 1:24:44.880 Well, to what degree do you actively try to keep 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:46.880 her memory alive? Oh? 1:24:46.920 --> 1:24:53.200 God, well, this book, that's the first thing where we've 1:24:53.240 --> 1:24:59.400 just redesigned her website. I really, you know, the book 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:02.320 is the is the big is the big thing right now? 1:25:02.760 --> 1:25:05.360 Will be you know, probably doing it some form of 1:25:05.400 --> 1:25:09.160 documentary at some point, and maybe down the line there 1:25:09.200 --> 1:25:14.360 there would be you know, some film opportunities. I just 1:25:14.400 --> 1:25:17.240 want to make sure that people know who she was, 1:25:18.160 --> 1:25:20.280 you know, and why she made some of the choices 1:25:20.320 --> 1:25:23.680 that she made. You know, I don't want people to 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:26.920 remember her just as you know, the fat one from 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:30.519 the Mamas and Papa's And honestly, I would like people 1:25:30.560 --> 1:25:34.960 to start to remember her by name. You know, people 1:25:35.000 --> 1:25:38.320 don't always remember her by name. It's begun, it's begun 1:25:38.400 --> 1:25:43.040 to kind of fade, you know, into the background. You know, 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:46.000 if you ask somebody if they know who the mamas 1:25:46.000 --> 1:25:48.200 and papas are, these are young kids. They don't know, 1:25:48.680 --> 1:25:51.120 They have no idea if you ask them if they 1:25:51.240 --> 1:25:54.360 if they know California Dreaming, they will know California Dreaming. 1:25:55.800 --> 1:25:56.040 You know. 1:25:56.200 --> 1:25:59.040 My goal is that they know they know my mom 1:25:59.120 --> 1:26:01.880 for who she was and some of the stuff she 1:26:01.920 --> 1:26:05.240 did after you know, the mamas and papas were. As 1:26:05.240 --> 1:26:11.280 far as the book is concerned, what were they two chapters? 1:26:12.720 --> 1:26:16.920 They weren't they weren't they weren't the whole picture, you know, 1:26:17.120 --> 1:26:19.719 So it's a lot more to the story. 1:26:20.000 --> 1:26:22.240 And you also see in the book that she wanted 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:24.000 to shed the Moniker Mama. 1:26:24.600 --> 1:26:27.400 Yeah she did, and I do believe had she lived longer, 1:26:27.520 --> 1:26:32.519 she would have. Absolutely, she would have, I really had. 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:36.120 I had a couple of really rough nights thinking about 1:26:36.720 --> 1:26:39.160 what were we going to put on the Star and 1:26:39.200 --> 1:26:41.800 the Walk of Fame, and I really just wanted to 1:26:41.800 --> 1:26:48.439 put cass Elliott. But I realized that most people know 1:26:48.600 --> 1:26:54.080 her as Mama Cass Elliott. And that's why I agreed 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:58.200 to do it if we put the quotes around around Mama, 1:26:58.240 --> 1:27:00.200 because that's really what it was. It was. It was 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:04.120 an assumed little nickname, and I think she would have 1:27:04.200 --> 1:27:06.800 agreed with that, you know. And like I said, had 1:27:06.840 --> 1:27:10.360 she lived longer, we would have known her as Cass Elliott, 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:12.800 she would have. She would have, you know, had more 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:17.479 time to define herself as that. You know. 1:27:19.880 --> 1:27:24.800 Okay, Owen, just one more thing. Owen conventionally is a 1:27:24.960 --> 1:27:29.120 male name. How was it growing up with the name Owen? 1:27:31.040 --> 1:27:33.240 Well, I got put in all the boys camps and 1:27:33.320 --> 1:27:35.960 all the boys cabins at camp because they just thought 1:27:35.960 --> 1:27:38.679 they that my parents messed up and checked the wrong box. 1:27:41.439 --> 1:27:45.760 I'm consistently, you know, on paper, mistaken for a man. 1:27:46.360 --> 1:27:47.960 I do have a deep voice, so I guess that 1:27:48.040 --> 1:27:51.960 kind of plays into a little bit. But I would 1:27:52.000 --> 1:27:56.599 tell you my credit card, my American Express card. Every 1:27:56.640 --> 1:28:00.479 time I would give a vendor my card, they would go, ma'am, 1:28:00.520 --> 1:28:05.360 we need your card. I'd be like, this is my card, No, ma'am, 1:28:05.439 --> 1:28:11.200 did you did? So? Finally I called American Express and 1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:16.960 I had them put Missus on the card so people 1:28:16.920 --> 1:28:19.439 wild leave me alone. 1:28:19.720 --> 1:28:25.439 Wow, that's funny. In any event, Owen's book My Mama 1:28:25.520 --> 1:28:29.760 Cass is a very easy quick read. Don't think just 1:28:29.760 --> 1:28:32.719 because it's a book, it's too much for you. And 1:28:32.800 --> 1:28:36.840 despite her saying there's really only two chapters on the 1:28:36.880 --> 1:28:40.759 mamas and the papas, the story of how Mama Cass 1:28:40.840 --> 1:28:45.160 makes it from the DC Baltimore area to LA is 1:28:45.400 --> 1:28:49.200 very well put out and I certainly learned things. So 1:28:49.240 --> 1:28:52.479 I want to thank you Owen for writing the book 1:28:52.800 --> 1:28:54.360 and speaking with my audience. 1:28:55.160 --> 1:28:57.400 Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan. This 1:28:57.560 --> 1:28:58.800 was a really cool thing. 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:02.920 Well, it's great to finally see you face to face. 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:06.799 Until next time. This is Bob Left sets 1:29:28.400 --> 1:29:28.439 H