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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Setts Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Owen Elliott Kogle, who has a

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Speaker 1: new book, My Mama Cass Owen. Why the book? Why now?

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Speaker 2: Well? I wanted to tell my mom's story because she

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Speaker 2: didn't live long enough to tell it herself. Why now

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Speaker 2: I finished it. I've been working on her off and

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Speaker 2: on for about fifteen years. It wasn't really intended to

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Speaker 2: come out at any special time or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: It's just happened to me when it's finished, and it

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Speaker 2: is coinciding with, unfortunately, the fiftieth anniversary in air quotes

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Speaker 2: of my mother's passing. So I guess in life there

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Speaker 2: aren't any accidents, right.

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Speaker 1: So you wrote the book without a publishing deal, and

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Speaker 1: when you finished it you got a deal.

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Speaker 2: No, I actually did get a publishing deal, and I

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Speaker 2: was hooked up with it with a wonderful agent who

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Speaker 2: helped me figure out how to put it in some

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Speaker 2: kind of a proposal format. And then we then got

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Speaker 2: the deal with Hashet, And at that point I hired

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Speaker 2: a collaborative editor named Hope Edelman, who wrote a fabulous

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Speaker 2: book called Motherless Daughters, enjoying its thirtieth year in publication

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Speaker 2: this year, and Hope and I worked together for just

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Speaker 2: about half the book, and then I did the second

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Speaker 2: half without her, and she and I worked together in

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Speaker 2: the fashion that I would write a bunch of stuff

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Speaker 2: and it was like a live Google doc, and she

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Speaker 2: would correct it like a teacher. It was like going

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Speaker 2: back to school. It was great.

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Speaker 1: Okay. One of the points you make in the book

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Speaker 1: that the rumor that your mother died because she choked

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Speaker 1: on a ham sandwich is untrue. What is the true

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Speaker 1: story and how did you uncover the truth story?

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Speaker 2: Well, the truth is that she had a heart attack.

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Speaker 2: That is absolutely what the autopsy report states. I found

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Speaker 2: out the truth sort of on the by and by

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Speaker 2: because I had been friendly with and kept in touch

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Speaker 2: with a few of my mom's friends, and one of

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Speaker 2: them was a woman named Sue Cameron, who is a journalist.

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Speaker 2: And I was at lunch with Sue in like two thousand,

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Speaker 2: I guess, and I remember saying to her, somewhat offhandedly, Gosh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really wish I knew who wrote that

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Speaker 2: rumor about my mom. And she stopped eating and put

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Speaker 2: her fork and knife down and looked at me and

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Speaker 2: she went, I did it? I said what? And she

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Speaker 2: told me that when my mom had passed, that she

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Speaker 2: had spoken with my mom's manager, who didn't really know

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Speaker 2: what to do or what to say, and whose main

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Speaker 2: concern was that people weren't going to lump her in

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Speaker 2: with so many of her contemporaries who had passed, you know,

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Speaker 2: due to drug overdoses, and we didn't know what had happened,

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Speaker 2: you know, And it really was about giving the family

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Speaker 2: and everybody else a little bit of a moment to

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Speaker 2: figure out exactly what had happened, which is that she

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Speaker 2: had a heart attack due to some really bad eating

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Speaker 2: habits and perhaps, you know, some damage from having a

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Speaker 2: lot of fun and partying and questionable substances. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was the sixties and the seventies. You know, it

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Speaker 2: would be stupid to think otherwise, So okay.

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Speaker 1: Her manager was Alan Carr, who has really kind of

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Speaker 1: been forgotten in the sands of time, but was a

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Speaker 1: very flamboyant manager movie producer at the time subsequent to

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Speaker 1: your mother's death. Did you have any contact with Alan

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Speaker 1: Carr discuss any of this.

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Speaker 2: I never discussed it with him, although I did meet

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Speaker 2: him a couple of times in the mid eighties late eighties,

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Speaker 2: when I first came back out to California, I had

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Speaker 2: reached out to him and he was, you know, a

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Speaker 2: flamboyant man, and I went and hung out with him

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Speaker 2: at his house a little bit, and we didn't talk

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Speaker 2: about that stuff. Maybe I should have discussed it with him,

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Speaker 2: but I was just trying to find my feet and

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Speaker 2: meet as many people as I knew, knew my mom,

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Speaker 2: and I almost I didn't always have like my questions prepared,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, But I was trying.

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Speaker 1: So in your research for the book, other than the

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Speaker 1: ham Sandwich story, what were the most surprising things you

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Speaker 1: found out?

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Speaker 2: Well, I keep reverting back to the discovery realization that

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Speaker 2: my mom had been really fighting a weight problem most

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Speaker 2: of her life, and that it had really begun during

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Speaker 2: a period of time where she had been staying with

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Speaker 2: her grandparents because her new little baby sister was about

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Speaker 2: to be born, and my mom had contracted some ringworm

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Speaker 2: in some way and that's really really contagious. So she

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Speaker 2: was sent to live with her grandparents, who did the

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Speaker 2: categoric thing and just fed her all the time, and

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Speaker 2: she did what she thought, you know, made them happy,

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Speaker 2: and so when she returned home a couple of months later,

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Speaker 2: she was noticeably heavier, and her parents did what they

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Speaker 2: believed to be the right thing, and it took her

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Speaker 2: to the doctor, and in turn, he did what he

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Speaker 2: believed to be the right thing, which was put her

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Speaker 2: on amphetamine. That discuss was pretty shocking to me, although

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Speaker 2: I hesitate to do a lot of blaming, because it's

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Speaker 2: all they knew. They didn't have any way of knowing

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Speaker 2: that that was going to have a negative effect on someone,

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Speaker 2: and I think it did have a negative effect on

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Speaker 2: my mom, besides not being able to pay attention in school,

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Speaker 2: you know, being like all hyper whatever. It really planted

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Speaker 2: the seeds of some really negative stuff. You know, first

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Speaker 2: of all, if you're being taken to the doctor, something's

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Speaker 2: wrong with you, right, And then to be given this

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Speaker 2: message of something's wrong with you. Here, take this pill,

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Speaker 2: it's going to fix you. Those are all really super

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Speaker 2: dangerous thoughts to be giving an eight year old child.

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Speaker 2: So in a nutshell, yeah, that was some of the

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Speaker 2: stuff I think that that shocked me, slash surprised me.

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Speaker 2: I think the most.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I certainly knew your mother's real name was not

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Speaker 1: cast but in the book, you explain where can came from?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell my audience.

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Speaker 2: My grandfather, Philip was the sort of guy who gave

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Speaker 2: nicknames to everybody, and he had given my mother the

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Speaker 2: nickname Cassandra, after the wild mad Greek goddess Cassandra, So

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Speaker 2: he would call her Cassandra all the time, and so

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Speaker 2: she adopted that as her stage name and then with

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Speaker 2: her as far as her last name was concerned, what

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Speaker 2: she told me was that she had that she'd had

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Speaker 2: a friend with the last name of Elliott who had

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Speaker 2: passed away in a car accident, and that she had

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Speaker 2: used that name in order to pay tribute to that person.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true or not, but that's

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Speaker 2: what that's what she told me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're born and your last name is Hendrix with

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Speaker 1: an icks, not like the guitarist, and explain where that

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Speaker 1: came from.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of my mom's first groups that she was

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Speaker 2: in was a group called the Big Three. And as

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Speaker 2: the name would suggest, there were three people in the band,

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Speaker 2: two general, two men, and my mom. And uh, this

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Speaker 2: was you know, in the early sixties, around the time

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Speaker 2: of the draft of the Vietnam War, and they were

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Speaker 2: singing together and one of the members, Jim Hendrix, got

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Speaker 2: the draft notice and it was at a point where

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Speaker 2: single men were the number one that were being being

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Speaker 2: drafted and if you were married, you were probably going

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Speaker 2: to be okay. And my mom and James Hendrix aka

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Speaker 2: Jim Hendrix were married and a platonic It was a

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Speaker 2: platonic move, you know, was to keep him out of

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Speaker 2: the draft and it you know, Jim says that they

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Speaker 2: had a lot of fun with being quote unquote married,

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Speaker 2: that they would you know, go places and my mom

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Speaker 2: would buy him clothes, and you know that they had

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Speaker 2: a great friendship, you know, and remained really really good friends.

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Speaker 2: When my mom first came out to California, after the

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Speaker 2: moms and papa's had been in the Caribbean Islands and

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Speaker 2: really kind of begun to come together, my mom came

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Speaker 2: out to California and she stayed with Jim and his

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Speaker 2: then wife Vanessa. That's the first place she went, so

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Speaker 2: she stayed really close to him. So, yeah, Jim Hendricks,

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Speaker 2: I will tell you, growing up with the last name

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Speaker 2: of Hendricks, even with the icks ending, the amount of

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Speaker 2: times that people would say to me, oh, I bet

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Speaker 2: Jimmy Hendricks is your dad, I would go, yeah, see

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Speaker 2: the resemblance, right, I mean we look exactly alike. Mean,

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Speaker 2: come on, people's stupidity knows no bounds, zero bounds.

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Speaker 1: I believe that I deal with the public all day long.

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Speaker 1: When did you decide to change your last name? And why.

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Speaker 2: I started using the name Elliot as my middle name

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Speaker 2: when I got married, because people had a very hard

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Speaker 2: time understanding why my last name was different than my mom's.

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Speaker 2: So really, purely for ease, I just kind of, you know,

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Speaker 2: put it in my on my driver's license and started

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Speaker 2: using it so it's not my legal name, which, which

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Speaker 2: did you know, prove to have some challenges when I

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Speaker 2: went to go get a US passport, because I will

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Speaker 2: tell you that my passport does not say Owen Elliott

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Speaker 2: Google on it. Thank you US Government. So it was

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Speaker 2: for ease. I didn't want to explain every time. Oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, my mom she married this guy, and you

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Speaker 2: know in.

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Speaker 1: The derivation of your middle name, Vanessa.

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Speaker 2: Jim Hendrix's wife, Vanessa, she she she named me after her.

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Speaker 1: Okay, with decades of experience, is it a plus or

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Speaker 1: a minus? Being the daughter of Cass Elliott.

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Speaker 2: Hmm. I will say that it's a double edged sword,

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Speaker 2: that's for sure. I it certainly gets you in the door.

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Speaker 2: I know that it's certainly, you know, gotten me places

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Speaker 2: that other people probably wouldn't be able to get to

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Speaker 2: as easily. But I also know that when you are

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Speaker 2: a well, in my case, a second generation performer singer,

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Speaker 2: if you choose to go into that same line of

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Speaker 2: work that you're that your parent went into, you feel

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Speaker 2: a little bit more judged. I think I think you

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Speaker 2: that you feel, or I would feel, that you have

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Speaker 2: to be as good as your predecessor or even better,

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Speaker 2: and then it's almost harder to prove yourself. I think

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Speaker 2: so in that way, it's a double ed sort. It

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Speaker 2: gets you in the door, but you have to prove

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Speaker 2: it even harder. I think.

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Speaker 1: So you got in the door. What was your experience

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Speaker 1: in terms of proving your talent?

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Speaker 2: Well, I didn't have too much time before the before

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Speaker 2: MCA was bought out by Panasonomy.

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Speaker 1: Not everybody knows the story. Let's roll back a lot

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Speaker 1: for it. Let's roll back to the beginning. At what

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Speaker 1: point did you realize your mother was cass Elliott and

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Speaker 1: she was famous and had fans other than yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly by the time I was four or five,

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Speaker 2: and definitely by the time that I described in the

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Speaker 2: book of going to the airport to pick her up

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Speaker 2: and seeing her coming out of the doors and just

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Speaker 2: running really fasting and and see her and she's waiting

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Speaker 2: for me, and in between us someone stepped to and

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Speaker 2: to ask her for her autograph, and I knew that

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Speaker 2: that was my mom's job, and I knew just to

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Speaker 2: hang back that, you know, this was part of her job,

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Speaker 2: and this was her work, and then if I was

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Speaker 2: just patient, it would be my turn. So I guess

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Speaker 2: that was one of the first moments that I can remember,

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Speaker 2: like really knowing that she had this extraordinary job, you know,

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Speaker 2: that required her to you know sometimes, you know, I

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Speaker 2: had that that would have to be her priority over

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Speaker 2: over us. But we'd get there.

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Speaker 1: And of course she was a legendary connector. And you

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Speaker 1: write about your experience living in Laurel Canyon. To what

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Speaker 1: degree do you remember that experience?

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Speaker 2: Honestly, not a whole lot. I mean I remember, I mean,

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Speaker 2: if if we remember, remember that I was seven years

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Speaker 2: old when my mom passed and had had endured my

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Speaker 2: share of you know, I hate to use this work

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Speaker 2: because I feel like everybody uses it all the time.

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Speaker 2: But there had been some trauma in my early life,

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Speaker 2: and U when you have that, some of those levels

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Speaker 2: of trauma, your memories become. You know, you don't really

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Speaker 2: have very much of them, but the ones I have.

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Speaker 2: I remember watching The Wizard of Oz with her. I

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Speaker 2: remember watching football with her. I remember asking her why

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Speaker 2: her name why my name was different than hers, Like

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Speaker 2: I have sort of these, you know, little bits and pieces.

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Speaker 2: As far as being in Laurel Canyon. I remember driving

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Speaker 2: down Laurel Canyon Boulevard, you know, I remember doing that

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Speaker 2: stuff and going into Hollywood with her, and you know,

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Speaker 2: being in the back seat and hearing her sing top

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Speaker 2: of the world. You know, like those are all really

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Speaker 2: strong memories of mine. But it was it was a

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Speaker 2: great place to grow up, you know. And and when

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Speaker 2: my mom died, I moved in with her sister and

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Speaker 2: her sister's husband, russe In Leacunkle, and they lived just

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Speaker 2: at the top of Nichols Canyon, so they were we

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Speaker 2: were very close in terms of how where we lived.

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Speaker 2: And it was adyllic, you know, I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 2: like all those memes we see about, you know, kids

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Speaker 2: and Generation X. We were out until the street lights

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Speaker 2: came on. True, true, you know, riding our dirt bikes

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Speaker 2: and getting into trouble. That's what I remember about growing

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Speaker 2: up in rural Canyon is just you know, being on

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Speaker 2: my dirt bike with my friends.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're talking about trauma at a young age. Obviously

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Speaker 1: your mother died, that's the most significant trauma. Were you

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Speaker 1: referencing trauma before that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Unfortunately I had suffered some physical abuse from from

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Speaker 2: one of the nanny's. I don't have too much of

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Speaker 2: a memory of it, but had some pretty wacky dreams

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Speaker 2: over my life, That's that's for sure. And it definitely

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Speaker 2: I can see now how that that trauma affected me

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Speaker 2: even as an adult. You know, she she made a

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Speaker 2: real good practice, this particular woman of telling me how

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Speaker 2: how what a bad little kid I was, and that

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Speaker 2: that stuff sticks. It just does. Unfortunately, now in.

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Speaker 1: The book, you reference the bruises on your legs being noticed,

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Speaker 1: and that was the turning point with that nanny. Can

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Speaker 1: you amplify that story a little bit.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know too much more about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, all I know is that my aunt Liah

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Speaker 2: had been staying up in above my mom's garage. There

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Speaker 2: was an apartment up there. I wasn't totally finished, but

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Speaker 2: Leah and her new husband Russ were living in this apartment.

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Speaker 2: She was pregnant with her son, and she had all

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Speaker 2: the windows open because it was really warm, and she

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Speaker 2: heard this nanny bringing me home from preschool just be

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Speaker 2: rating me, you know, And this story came from Leah.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't physically remember this stuff, but

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Speaker 2: when Leah told me it, it told me this story

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Speaker 2: it definitely and you know, rings a little thing in

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Speaker 2: the back of your brain. But this nanny was telling

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Speaker 2: me what a terrible kid I was, how bad I was,

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Speaker 2: I got my dress dirty, and she was just being

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Speaker 2: really nasty and really mean. And so Leah said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know what, you can take an extra day off

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Speaker 2: this weekend. So she got the nanny out of there,

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Speaker 2: and Leah gave me a bath, and she's the one

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Speaker 2: that discovered the bruises. And then I just, you know,

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Speaker 2: did what what kids do with in a scenario like that?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's nothing I fell, Yeah, I don't think so,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, you got that story from your aunt Leah

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Speaker 1: and you get all these stories. Did the stories tend

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Speaker 1: to line up or were their contradictions?

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Speaker 2: Well, that particular story, I when I said I had

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Speaker 2: a couple of like pretty intense dreams, I should go

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Speaker 2: to therapy for some of the dreams, I had hit

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Speaker 2: some of the some of the things that I think

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Speaker 2: that I worked out in the in those dreams. So

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Speaker 2: so in that way, I feel like they did ring

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Speaker 2: true and a lot of times, especially with a painful memory,

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Speaker 2: when you hear it again, like I make this comment

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Speaker 2: about like it like the memory like ringing true in

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Speaker 2: the back of your brain. That's that's how I know

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Speaker 2: a memory is true if I like have some identification

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Speaker 2: with it, you know. And and with that particular memory

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Speaker 2: I did, unfortunately, because she also did things like I

303
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Speaker 2: used to suck my thumb a lot, and she wasn't

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Speaker 2: having it. So she was putting like tabasco sauce on

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Speaker 2: my thoe. But I'm not a dummy, I know, I

306
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Speaker 2: just you know, wash it off in the in the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: I remember that, you know.

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Speaker 3: So if that was happening, it makes sense that Stuffy

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Speaker 3: the other stuff was happening and talking to the other

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Speaker 3: members of the mamas and Papa's relatives and friends.

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Speaker 1: Was the narrative pretty consistent or do you find one

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Speaker 1: person saying one thing and another person saying another thing.

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Speaker 2: The narrative was always consistent, always, and not one person

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Speaker 2: ever had anything negative to say. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 2: know how easy it would be to say something negative

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Speaker 2: to somebody's kid. But in spite of that, everybody's memory

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Speaker 2: of hers so Christine. And perhaps it's because she was

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Speaker 2: thirty two when she passed away. That's still really really young,

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Speaker 2: you know. So she kind of died in this on

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Speaker 2: this pedestal if you will, you know, it's you're frozen

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Speaker 2: in time at a certain age. You know.

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Speaker 1: So what with all being her daughter and talking to

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Speaker 1: so many people writing the book, what do you think

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Speaker 1: your mother's magic was?

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Speaker 2: My mother was the great connector. She was sort of

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Speaker 2: one of those people that people wanted to be around,

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Speaker 2: had a magnetism about her, and she was funny and

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Speaker 2: she was smart, and people wanted to be around her.

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Speaker 2: So I think that was part of her secret sauce,

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Speaker 2: is that, you know, people just wanted to hang out

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Speaker 2: with her, you know, and she was relatable, she was approachable,

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Speaker 2: you know, and she was honest. She was always honest

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Speaker 2: and down to earth and like I said, relatable and approachable.

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Speaker 1: Now, something you touched earlier on her weight and is

335
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Speaker 1: also in the book. Conventional wisdom is that she had

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Speaker 1: this unrequited love affair with Denny Denny Doherty, one of

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Speaker 1: the papas and the mamas and the papas. To your knowledge,

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Speaker 1: did she ever have a satisfying love relationship.

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Speaker 2: No, no, she didn't. And that's one of the greatest

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Speaker 2: tragedies of my mother's life, is that she never got

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Speaker 2: to appreciate or be in a relation relationship with another

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Speaker 2: human being. That's that's an equal, loving relationship. I just

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Speaker 2: I do believe that most of the gentleman callers were

344
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: there for you know, the fame and the money and

345
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 2: the you know whatever. They weren't there for the for

346
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: the right reasons. And she was. She was lonely, you know,

347
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Speaker 2: Like I wrote in the book, she's here, she is sitting,

348
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Speaker 2: you know, on the on the stage apron at Carnegie Hall,

349
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Speaker 2: with all these people yelling her name, you know, but

350
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 2: she's checking into her hotel room by herself. Everybody else

351
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 2: had somebody, but she didn't, you know, And and therein

352
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 2: lies the reason that she decided to get pregnant and

353
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Speaker 2: have a kid, because I wasn't going to go anywhere,

354
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Speaker 2: you know, she she'd always she would always have me,

355
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Speaker 2: you know, or a baby, whoever that person would have been.

356
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Speaker 1: But so when did you metabolize the fact that your

357
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: mother was not coming back?

358
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Speaker 2: Probably like three or four years after she died. You know,

359
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: I was really really used to her traveling for her

360
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: work because that's what she did, so I kind of

361
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: would console myself, you know those when you're falling asleep

362
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Speaker 2: at night and you have all those thoughts that go

363
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Speaker 2: through your through your brain. One of them for me

364
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: was she'll be home. She'll be home soon, because she

365
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Speaker 2: always is. I guess probably a few years. It sure

366
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Speaker 2: wasn't right away. It's definitely a few years later.

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Speaker 1: Okay. You mentioned the fact that your mother had you

368
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: to have a companion, so there wasn't a biological father

369
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: on the scene. Jim Hendrix wasn't on the scene. Then

370
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Speaker 1: he dies. How much anger do you have about all that?

371
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Speaker 2: Then? Who dies my mom? Well?

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Speaker 1: The fact that you know, in retrospect, yes, about your mom,

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Speaker 1: and then you were ultimately left, you know, alone, I mean,

374
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Speaker 1: you have your aunt and her husband, but you look

375
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: back and you say, well, this was a performer. She

376
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: had me as a companion and that was good for her,

377
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Speaker 1: and now she's gone.

378
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Speaker 2: Well, I guess I never looked at it like that particularly,

379
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: but I do remember feeling very much alone when she

380
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: died because she was my solo only parent. But I mean,

381
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: she was my friend, you know what I mean, Like

382
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: it was just her and I a lot, you know,

383
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Speaker 2: And I do remember feeling very very much like I

384
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: was going to have to just have a whole new life.

385
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: I remember there being a moment at the funeral when

386
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: we were leaving the funeral, remember, and I don't remember

387
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: who it was that asked me with somebody that said, well,

388
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 2: what car do you want to ride in? You know,

389
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: do you want to ride with your grandmother or do

390
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: you want to ride with your aunt and uncle? And

391
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: I knew that my aunt and uncle were going to

392
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 2: be my new family. And I remember thinking to myself,

393
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: and let's remember this seven year old kid having this thought, well,

394
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: this is going to be your new family, so you

395
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: better start getting used to it. I mean, what a

396
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: scary thought to realize at that age. And that's really

397
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: truly how I felt.

398
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Speaker 1: You know. So you ultimately go to live with Leah

399
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: and Russ, who end up having their own child. Did

400
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: they feel like your mother and father are in the

401
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: back of them in your mind? Did you always know

402
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: they were rising to the occasion.

403
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, It's interesting because I had to

404
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: kind of at an early age make a distinction between

405
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: these four individuals. Okay, so stinks about it like that.

406
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: So the mother, the biological mother, and father were my

407
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: mom and the guy who fathered me. So that takes

408
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: what five, ten, fifteen minutes, that's all that takes. And

409
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: then I have a mom and a dad. Leah and

410
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: Russ are my mom and my dad because they did

411
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: the work, they did the job of parenting me.

412
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: You know.

413
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: So I had to really make those those distinctions, you know, mother,

414
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: biological mother, and father and a mom and a dad,

415
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: four completely separate people in my ridiculously complicated family tree.

416
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: But ultimately Russ and Leah get divorced.

417
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: I know, Russ and Leah then get divorced seven years later.

418
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: So I have this weird identification with the number seven.

419
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: So the first seven years I'm with my mom, and

420
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: then the second seven years I'm with Leah and Russ,

421
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: and then after that I'm shipped off to boarding school.

422
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: So you know, all that's are off. But yeah, they

423
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: Leah and Russ, we had a we had a good

424
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: you know, a few years. We were all. It was wonderful.

425
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: We were all it was. We were a family. Russ,

426
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure you know, is like a rock

427
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: and roll star. I just realized that, like twenty minutes ago.

428
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: He's like one of the best drummers in the world,

429
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: you know. And he was on the road all the

430
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: time in the summers. Like we would finish our our

431
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: you know, school year, and he's gone. He was out

432
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: with Crosby Stills and Nash, He's out with Jackson Brown,

433
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: he's out with James Dale, or he's just gone.

434
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: You know.

435
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: And that's when Leah had found that the farm in

436
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: the Berkshires really close to Tanglewood, So when all those

437
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: tours were coming through Tanglewood, we'd get to go see

438
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: them at Tanglewood like in the summertime. And so I

439
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: have a lot of really great memories of that. So

440
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: it was kind of neat to go from one musical

441
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: household to another, right and get to kind of have

442
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: this pretty rounded experience, you know, it was it was

443
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: really cool.

444
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: So you're living in La.

445
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we go to Massachusetts.

446
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: Right, So as a young person, that's traumatic.

447
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: What the move to Massachusetts. Yes, you know, it was

448
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: an adventure. I didn't see it as being traumatic at all.

449
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it was really like, this is a new

450
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: adventure for us. And growing up in Los Angeles certainly

451
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: was way different than growing up in Massachusetts, and it

452
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: would give us an opportunity to sort of have a

453
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: semi normal, you know life as opposed to being raised

454
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: in this really you know, privilege overprivileged, you know, LA

455
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 2: private school scene, which is still just as bad, if

456
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: not worse. I'm grateful that we that we got out

457
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: of got out of Dodge for for four years, you know,

458
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: and I love I love our town in Massachusetts. It's

459
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: still it's still my home. Leah lives there, it's still

460
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: my home. I still have my bedroom there. Well, I

461
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: mean I don't have my stuff there, but you know,

462
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: it's still a big part of who I am. So

463
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: I'm super grateful that that we left. I didn't see

464
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: it as being traumatic at all. I mean, yeah, I

465
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: did leave some of my friends in a in a

466
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: pre internet, you know, really high long distance phone call era.

467
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: It was pretty bad, but you know, I made new friends.

468
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: How do they end up sending you to what you

469
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: call a boarding school, but when you read the book,

470
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: it sounds more like a lot institution.

471
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: Well, it actually wasn't locked, but they did threaten you.

472
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: You know that particular school was. It turns out it

473
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: was actually in the same campus at the school that

474
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: Leah had gone to in the sixties where she'd been

475
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: friends with Arlo Guthrie and Chevy Chase had gone there

476
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: and all these It was this very progressive boarding school

477
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: at that point, and we drove by it and she's like, oh,

478
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: what's this? You know, And I had had a hard time,

479
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, losing my mom was not an easy thing

480
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: for me, and I had a really hard time in school.

481
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: Really didn't like school, really couldn't concentrate in school. I

482
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: was floating out the window. I just wasn't I wasn't

483
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: able to pay attention at all. And I barely got

484
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: through school. And I really in our first year in

485
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Northampton in Massachusetts, I didn't really attend a lot of

486
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: classes and at the end of the year. Lee was like, yeah, yes,

487
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: some got to change here, and she had been told

488
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: about this school. Turned out it was on the same

489
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: campus this her old school. Haha, isn't that funny? And

490
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: we went up there and she enrolled me. It was

491
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: It was like an institution in a lot of ways,

492
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: although like I said, the doors weren't locked. The consequences

493
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: were so severe if you if you left that they

494
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: might as well have been locked. But you get you

495
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: get into a little bit of a little bit of

496
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: what are they called not munch housing bi proxy when

497
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: you just feel like you're it was cultish. It was

498
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: cultish for sure. It was a very weird uh school.

499
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: And I was there for almost three years. And you

500
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 2: didn't get to go home. You didn't go home for Christmas,

501
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: you didn't go home for any of those things. So

502
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 2: you were really like locked down, like he said, in

503
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: that way. And that school stayed opened for quite quite

504
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: a long time. It would fall under the category of

505
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: the trouble teen industry. Now when that one that you know,

506
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: there's schools in Utah, there's schools all over the place

507
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: that are markedly worse than than than the school that

508
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 2: I went to. There's that there's a show on Netflix

509
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: right now, the program that's pretty close. It's pretty scary

510
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: that that series has been really bothering a lot of people.

511
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: I know, we're all still in touch that went to

512
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: that school, and we're all like, oh my god, that's

513
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: exactly what it was like. But it was it was

514
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: nice not being in a house where I was Leah

515
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: and I had a really hard time when I was

516
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: a teenager. I was probably not the easiest teenager to raise,

517
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of yelling and a lot

518
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: of screaming and a lot of just bad stuff. And

519
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: I was I was actually really happy to not have

520
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: that anymore, and it and it I got to really

521
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: grow up at that point, and I never really went

522
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: I did go back and live with her for like

523
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 2: six months, but I mean, really, I left home when

524
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: I was fourteen, if you really want to think about it,

525
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: I was fourteen in boarding school, and when I got out,

526
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: I was almost eighteen.

527
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: And you leave and then you ultimately drop out of

528
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: high school.

529
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: I dropped out of high school, yes, because the school

530
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: that I had then attended for three years was completely unaccredited.

531
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: So every class that I had taken, even though the

532
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: grades had been bad. Every class that I had taken,

533
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: none of them transferred. So I went back to my

534
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: normal high school and they were like, yeah, you got

535
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: to go back to another year, another year of school

536
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: at least. And I was eighteen, and I went, I

537
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: am not doing another year of high schools. I watched

538
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: everybody that I had known getting ready to walk down

539
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: and graduate. I was like, yeah, this is this is

540
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: not happening. And so yeah I did. I went down.

541
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: I signed myself out of high school on my eighteenth birthday.

542
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 2: Leah wasn't pleased in.

543
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: The ensuing decades not having a high school degree? Is that?

544
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: Have you gotten any penalties as a result of that?

545
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: Any roadblocks?

546
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: No? And they actually let me write a book. I mean,

547
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean it's funny because I did

548
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: a book signing last night here in La at Diesel

549
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: Books in West LA and I had my old childhood

550
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: friend moon Zappa come in and interview me, and she

551
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: she had just read the book and she said to me,

552
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: she said, so, when did you know that you were

553
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: a writer? And I went today, It's like this is

554
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 2: so out of the you know, out of my comfort zone.

555
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: I've you know, it's it's all new to me. You know,

556
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: it's beautiful though, it's so fulfilling. It's just everything that

557
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: you hear people say about writing memoir that it's fulfilling,

558
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: and it's you know, cathartic, and it's all of that.

559
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: It's just it's all of the fields. It really is.

560
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to prep school in the eighties, it's

561
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: insanely expensive sixty plus thousand dollars today. It was not

562
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: that expensive back then, but it was far from cheap,

563
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: at least the cost of going to college. Where'd the

564
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: money come from?

565
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, I know my tuition was about a third of

566
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: that sixty if that gives you any indication there there

567
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: began to be smaller amounts of money that came through

568
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: the estate, and Leah was able to pay some of

569
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: it out of her out of her pocket. When this,

570
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 2: and you'll appreciate this, when the CD was invented and

571
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: labels were forced to have their artists, most of them

572
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: resign agreements because they were new there were new product,

573
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: right that, all of those new CDs that came out,

574
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: they saved my mom's estate because everybody rebought every bit

575
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: of anything they'd ever had because of this new sound,

576
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: everything was so great and CDs just made huge, huge

577
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: leaps and bounds. And because of all that, we were

578
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: able to finally get the estate closed in like nineteen

579
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: eighty seven. So, you know what, I don't know how

580
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: she got the money, but she did it, and she

581
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 2: made it and she I know, there was a couple

582
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: of years that I had a scholarship, you know, one

583
00:36:59,320 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: of those things.

584
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about the renegotiation. When the music comes

585
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: out on CD, most of the revenue from recording goes

586
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: to the writer, and your mother was not the writer

587
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: of those hits, right, So over these ensuing decades, have

588
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: the royalties been small significant? What are they like?

589
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: The royalties are respectable and they and they've been they've

590
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: been even more respectable in the last couple of years.

591
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: Streaming isn't killing us yet, but it's close, you know.

592
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: It's just streaming is actually the only way that people

593
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 2: are listening to music nowadays. It's just kind of killer

594
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: streaming and licensing. Licensing is the other thing that is

595
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: our bread and butter commercials, you know, anything that we

596
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: can that we can get. I mean, it's it's kind

597
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: of a it's a bit of a dance, because back

598
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: in the old days, the whole idea that you were

599
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 2: going to allow your music to be used for commercial

600
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: usage was just like you were selling out. You never

601
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: did that. Now it is absolutely the bread and butter

602
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: of the majority of these legacy artists is you know,

603
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: oh my god, we got a we got an Adobe commercial,

604
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: We've got to you know whatever. So in that way,

605
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: it's it is, it's respectable, it's I mean definitely when

606
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: the CDs came in, that's what started to make everything

607
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: really happen again. And then you know, as as you know,

608
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: formats change, and now with streaming, we had to adapt

609
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 2: a little bit to that. But you know, they're they're

610
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: sort of paying us on streaming correctly. I get really

611
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 2: into it. I'm I'm really into the contracts. I'm really

612
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: into the business side of it. I just fight it fascinating.

613
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: It absolutely ruined my attitude about ever being an artist

614
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: because I just went, oh my god, they're doing what

615
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: did they do? Oh my god? So but yeah, pretty good.

616
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: Okay, is there enough money to take care of your bills?

617
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, so that's good. I'm really lucky. I'm really lucky.

618
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: I may have suffered a lot of losses in my life.

619
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: Wish I have, but I'm not going to be ashamed

620
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: of the fact that things are okay for me and

621
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: I can live a comfortable life.

622
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: Right right, Okay, we've in the last decade a lot

623
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: of people have sold those rights. You can sell your

624
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,720
Speaker 1: royalty interest. Have you been approached and would you sell?

625
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: I was sort of approached maybe ten years ago, and

626
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: it was and it was at a point in time

627
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 2: when I was really, really really broke. So the way

628
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: the person that approached me, I think was sort of,

629
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, knowing that, and they I think they offered

630
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: me what when they offered it by the royals, I'm

631
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: asking my my husband over here three times a three

632
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: time multiplier, and we didn't take it, thank God. I

633
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: don't know if I would ever take it. I don't

634
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: think I would. I don't think it would because it's

635
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: everything is so fluid that it's really really hard to

636
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: make it a judgment as to, you know, well, if

637
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: I sell now, is it going to be good? And

638
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: then something really amazing happens in a year and you're like,

639
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: damn it, I sold that. Now we have that lottery

640
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: commercial or whatever. It is that. You know, you go, well,

641
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: I really wish I would have had something to do

642
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: with that, because then you see this, Then you see

643
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 2: all these artists songs and music that are on commercials

644
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: that you just know that these artists would have never

645
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: agreed to. It's just a lot. There's a lot lot

646
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: of taking advantage of those of those catalogs that I

647
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: just I can't imagine that everyone feels good about. But

648
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: you lose that control when you sell it.

649
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: So you know, your mother made solo albums, some more

650
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: successful than others. Her main success was with the Mom

651
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: is in the Papas. John Phillips wrote most of the songs,

652
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: and that's its own vertical and revenue. But there are

653
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: four people in the act and three of them have

654
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: passed away. So when it comes for a licensing approval,

655
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: how does that work?

656
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: Well, that always goes through the label. That always goes

657
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: through Universal. Universal is the one that approves that stuff

658
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: as far as the songwriters are concerned. You know, for

659
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: a songwriting license, right, I think it's got to be

660
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: licensed by that. For publishing, that gets handled through their

661
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: estate and through their like for instance, John Phillips estate

662
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: has you know they handle things through them. They have

663
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: an attorney that handles things. It's it's a bit complicated,

664
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: but you.

665
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: Know, all these performers have children. How do you get

666
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: along with your generation?

667
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: I all my crazy brothers and sisters, mamas and Papa's

668
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters. We all get along great. It's you know,

669
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 2: we all have this really strange background together. You know,

670
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: I'm very close with with with most of them. You know,

671
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: China and Biju were at my book signing last night,

672
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: causing all kinds of trouble in the audience. But yeah,

673
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: we're all. We're all really close, you know, Mackenzie, we're all.

674
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: We're all. We're like I said, we're all part of

675
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: this weird kind of family, you know.

676
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: Okay Mackenzie certainly you know they're different mothers for John

677
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: Phillips's children, but she came out and said some pretty

678
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: horrific fixed stuff. In your research, what's your take on

679
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: Papa John?

680
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: Well, the only research I did on Papa John is

681
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: just the stuff that I knew for myself, and my

682
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: experience with John was that he was he was a

683
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: sweet guy, you know. I you know, I think I

684
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: met John and had conversations with him. I can count

685
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 2: it on one hand. You know, that's it. I really

686
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: didn't know him very well at all. Mackenzie's assertions or

687
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: McKenzie's assertions, and it's not my business. I don't know

688
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 2: anything about it.

689
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: You talk a lot about his wife, Michelle, who was

690
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: in the group and of course kicked out and then

691
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: comes back. What's your relationship with Michelle?

692
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: Michelle? Michelle was there last night too. There was a

693
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 2: great moment when one of the women in the audience

694
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: asked made a comment about the mamas and Papa's not

695
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 2: knowing that Michelle was sitting right there, and she was

696
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: talking about how you know how great my mom's voice was,

697
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: that was better than anybody else's, and the whole mom

698
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: is in paposita. She's I'm going like this, And then

699
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: as I finished, I went, well, well, I don't know,

700
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: maybe you want to ask her yourself, Michelle, why don't

701
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: you answer that question right now? So she's she is totally,

702
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: she loves it. She's she's enjoying all of it. She's

703
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: kind of like the I mean, yes, she was the youngest,

704
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 2: so I guess it makes sense that she's the last

705
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 2: one alive, right, But she's she's now kind of in

706
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: this position where she's she's kind of looking out after

707
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: all of us, you know. I mean, China's obviously her child.

708
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: She's she keeps an eye out on all of the kids,

709
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: and I think that's kind of a neat place for

710
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: her to be at this point in her life. And

711
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: she'll be turning well. I don't know if I should

712
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: say it, but she has a Mileston on birthday coming

713
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: up in the next couple of weeks, and I'm sure

714
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: all of us will be there to help her celebrate it.

715
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: But she she's she's a really good person.

716
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: Michelle.

717
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: Michelle is somebody who's been very, very important to me

718
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: in my life.

719
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: What was your relationship with Denny before he passed? Oh?

720
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: God, I love Denny so much. I Uh, I think

721
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: I was probably the closest to him Denny. Uh. You know,

722
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: Denny had done his play in New York City and

723
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: he had been off Broadway for six months. And when

724
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: he went back to Canada and he got his requisite

725
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: Canadian check up, the doctor went, uh, what have you

726
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: been doing the last six months? He could believe that

727
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: that Denny's Denny. This aneurysm they had found around his

728
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: heart hadn't exploded, Like he couldn't believe the guy was

729
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: like still walking around, you know. And so he had

730
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: surgery and he was recovering, and then they had to

731
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: go back in and he was home recovering and he

732
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: didn't make it. And before he went in for the

733
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: second surgery, I was speaking with him on the phone.

734
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: We talked all the time. We probably talked, you know,

735
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: three or four times a week, anytime anything was going

736
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: on for me, if it was mamas and Papa's related.

737
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: On the phone. I had trouble in my love life.

738
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: My boyfriend broke up with me. I was calling him,

739
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: so he was he was that person in my life.

740
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 2: And so he was gonna have to go back in

741
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: and have the second surgery. And it was the first

742
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: time I'd ever heard any any bit of fear in

743
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: his voice. It's the first time I could ever identify

744
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: any like trepidation. And our relationship sort of shifted in

745
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: that moment, and I sort of realized I was going

746
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 2: to have to be the grown up, right And I

747
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: was like, don't worry about anything. I'm I'm a young,

748
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,479
Speaker 2: healthy person. I'm going to beat around for a really

749
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 2: long time. Your kids are not going to be able

750
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: to get rid of me. I will take care of everything.

751
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: Don't worry, you know. And I think that I hope

752
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: that that helped ease his mind a little bit, you know,

753
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: because he has he still had kids that were in

754
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 2: their twenties. I mean they weren't you know, they weren't

755
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: babies or anything, but they were in their twenties, you know.

756
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: And actually I remember being in Canada and reading your

757
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: post that you wrote about him.

758
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: He was.

759
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: You know that that one hurt. That that one hurt.

760
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 1: Now musically, after the group broke up, your mother had

761
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: the most success of all four.

762
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah she did.

763
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's tough to be in the spotlight. Ultimately

764
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: Michelle had an acting career, but it's tough to be

765
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: in the spotlight and then you're not Could you feel

766
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: any of that from them.

767
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: Not necessarily, And certainly, like I said, John, I didn't.

768
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know him, so I can't even really speak

769
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: to that at all. Denny was Denny. Denny just kind of,

770
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 2: you know, did his own thing. He had so many

771
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 2: different projects that he worked on over the years, a

772
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: lot of projects in Canada. He was he worked on

773
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: the show called Theodore Tugboat, the kids show for for

774
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: the Canadian Broadcasting System up there, and and he sent

775
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: me on the hat when I had my little boy,

776
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: he sent me a big box of tugboat tugboat toys.

777
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: I think he was disgrateful for everything that, you know,

778
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: he was able to do. I don't think there was

779
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: any you know, jealousy or bad you know vibes about it.

780
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess when you're the lead singer in

781
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 2: a band, it kind of makes sense that you go solo, right,

782
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: isn't that kind of the story of everybody?

783
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 1: Right? But that was sixty years ago, so these were progenitors,

784
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: whereas everything happens now.

785
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: Well then then then she set the pace.

786
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: What can I say, Well, I mean, you were seven

787
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: years old. One of the things you do in the book,

788
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: which is very interesting, is you go through all the

789
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: TV appearances which not everybody saw. But your mother was

790
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: constantly in the print news. You reference when she lost

791
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: an extreme amount of weight. She would be in the

792
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: people's section of Time magazine. She was someone who continued

793
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: to be in the news where the other three didn't.

794
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: On well, she wanted to continue to have a career,

795
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: you know, and she was also a single parent. She

796
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: had a reason to be out there, you know, trying

797
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: to make a living because there wasn't anybody else that

798
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: was doing it, you know. And by that time she

799
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: was I was a baby, and she knew she had

800
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 2: to take care of things that needed to be cared for.

801
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: You know. That's when she started doing a lot of

802
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: more television appearances, you know, that would kind of keep

803
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 2: her close to home. You know, all of the Carol Burnett,

804
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: I mean, she did so much great stick on television.

805
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: You know.

806
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 2: I love all that stuff. I wish I could say

807
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,919
Speaker 2: I think I've seen all of it, but I'm sure

808
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 2: there's a couple of things I haven't seen, which is

809
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 2: very weird.

810
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: But do you listen to your mother's music.

811
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 2: I do listen to my mother's music. I started to

812
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: really get into the stuff that she recorded after she

813
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: left Dunhill, mostly because this is a brand new deal.

814
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: It was just her. She was going to get to

815
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 2: pick out everything that really she was being, that really

816
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: she was she was into, and so those records I

817
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: think speak to me a little bit more. When she

818
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: was able to do some more covers, I mean, the

819
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: RCA years were some pretty pretty good, pretty good records.

820
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: At one point. One of the last records my mom

821
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 2: made for RCA was a record called The Road Is

822
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 2: No Place for a Lady. And that record was recorded

823
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: in England at Trident Studios, and I remember her taking

824
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 2: me on that trip. That's when my nanny took me

825
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: to the Buckingham Palace to watch the guards change and

826
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, this is boring, We're out of here.

827
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: So she so she recorded The Road is No Place

828
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 2: for a Lady in at Trident and the record was

829
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: was mixed over there. And when everybody got back to

830
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 2: the States and and the Lou Merenstein, who was the producer,

831
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: went to go and play the record for the label.

832
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: He was horrified at at what the mixes sounded like.

833
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: They sounded terrible, and he said, you gotta wait. I

834
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 2: gotta go back to England. I gotta go remix these

835
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: these songs. The masters are over there. I'll be back

836
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 2: in a week. Promise me, you're not gonna You're not

837
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: gonna release the record. Okay, we promised. They were. They did.

838
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: They they released the record and it's terrible mixed, or

839
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: you know, terribly mixed fashion. That's what the first pressing

840
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: of that of that record sounded like. And what what

841
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 2: Berenstein found out when he went back to London is

842
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: that in the interim between the recording of right before

843
00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 2: they started recording the records, that tape head were misaligned

844
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 2: and they hadn't been adjusted. So the entire record was

845
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 2: recorded on misaligned tape heads. So that's why it all

846
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: sounds like dog duty. So in two thousand and eight,

847
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 2: one of a small what's the I forget the label

848
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: that so it was a retro one of the retro stations.

849
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 2: One of the retro CD companies wanted to put out

850
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: The Road is no Place for a Lady. And I

851
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: had a friend who worked at Sony, and they went

852
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 2: and looked in their vault. And the Sony vault hasn't

853
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 2: been moved ever. It's in like some cold storage and

854
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 2: some mountain in Pennsylvania, right, so all their masters are

855
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: in the best shape they can possibly be. They went

856
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: and found the original masters and they found the finished

857
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: mix that was never put on the record, And when

858
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: we did the remastering for this project in two thousand

859
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: and eight, we fixed it. We took that old crappy

860
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 2: mix off the first single and replaced it with the

861
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: better mix. So it's almost like it came full circle.

862
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: So it's kind of some of those things that happened

863
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 2: I think in my life are so cool. What a

864
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 2: great experience to get to fix what was a colossal mistake.

865
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: You go deeply into your mother's history growing up in

866
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: her family. What do you think was the background such

867
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: that she could have the drive to ultimately get success,

868
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: which was unbelievably difficult.

869
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 2: Depression I would call it depression, you know, I mean,

870
00:54:55,120 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: this is a post at World War two, Emily. You know,

871
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: with many many people who have have died overseas. You know,

872
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: my great grandmother's, her entire family, with exception of her

873
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: and one other cousin, one of one of her other sisters,

874
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: everyone died in the Holocaust. She she was, she felt

875
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: very responsible, my great grandmother. She felt as though she

876
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 2: should have been there. She had. She was severely, severely depressed.

877
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 3: And.

878
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 2: That kind of has continued, that that we have generational

879
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: depression in our family and that nothing is a better,

880
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: you know, like thing to get you out on moving

881
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: and doing is when you're depressed, you got to go

882
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 2: out and do it, you know. And I think that

883
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: was a big part of what caused my mom to

884
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: not want to give up, you know. She was. I

885
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 2: always liken her to the little engine that could. You know,

886
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: the children's book, I think I can, I think I can,

887
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 2: I think I can. You know. And the fact that

888
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: she told everyone I'm going to be the most famous

889
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 2: fact girl that ever lived. That's the best thing I've

890
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 2: ever heard in my life. I think that's so cool.

891
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: And she was right.

892
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: Now, when you read the book and you lay it

893
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: all out, it almost seems amazing that she made it.

894
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: There were close calls. She made a couple of records

895
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: with the Big Three. They didn't want her in the

896
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: Mamas and the Papas. It's just it's not exactly luck,

897
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: but most people would have given up much sooner.

898
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 2: Well. She she had this triumph over adversity thing that

899
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: she constantly exhibited. And it's almost like when someone tells

900
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: you no, you almost want to do it more her,

901
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: you know. So I think she probably was of that,

902
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 2: of that kind of thinking. And I think she also

903
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 2: really knew what I think she knew what she wanted,

904
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 2: and she was just and she just went and got it.

905
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 2: You know, that's that's the kind of person she was.

906
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 2: You know, I would love to have that kind of kutzba.

907
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 2: You know, she just she just didn't give up.

908
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: So what did you get from your mother?

909
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: What did I get from my mother? I don't know.

910
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 2: I'd like to believe that I have some of her

911
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 2: sense of humor. I know that our voices sound very similar,

912
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: our speaking voices and singing voices, as with a lot

913
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: of our family. So that's something I got from her.

914
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: Is I have that connection to her, And it's a

915
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: beautiful thing. I mean I I I feel very blessed

916
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: by it, for sure.

917
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: Okay, the records were produced by Lou Adler. Do you

918
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: know Lou and have you discussed this with him?

919
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: I do know Lou. I have not discussed the book

920
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 2: with him. I saw Lou the last time at at

921
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: this the induction, the installation of my mom's star in

922
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: the Hollywood Walk of Fame. He was one of our

923
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: guests that day, and he actually he pulled like the

924
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 2: perfect Lou Adler move without like barely even trying. We

925
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 2: had we had assembled like this big list of people

926
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,919
Speaker 2: who had written nice things for us to say at

927
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: the at the ceremony, and we were trying to assign

928
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: and we had all these we had Graham, we had Uh,

929
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: we had Stephen Stills, we had and we had to

930
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 2: a quote from Crosby. We had quotes from just everybody

931
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: and their mother. And we were trying to figure out, okay,

932
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 2: well you'll give two of these quotes to Michelle, and

933
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 2: this person does that, and then Lou Adler goes, why

934
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: don't you just have Stephen Stills read the Crosby and

935
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: Nash and I went, oh my god, that's genius, And

936
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: that's what we did. So Still's got up there and

937
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: read quotes from his whole band, you know, and it

938
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: was just like this genius moment. We would have never

939
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 2: thought to do that take somebody like Lou Adler to go, oh, well,

940
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 2: that's really obvious that should go there.

941
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: Like, oh, okay, in the book you say you're very

942
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: tight with Carnie Wilson. How is it? You know, you

943
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: make it sound like it's a club and you're a

944
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: member of it. You know, all the sons and daughters

945
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: of the famous perform Was that just the nature of

946
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: growing up in La was that because you were cass

947
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: Elliott's daughter, was that your personality. How did you end

948
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: up knowing everybody?

949
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: I think it's growing up in LA. It's growing up

950
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 2: in LA the child of somebody who's well known in

951
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: the entertainment industry. It's all about where you were going

952
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: to school, you know. I mean, I was going to

953
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 2: school with kids whose whose parents were very well known.

954
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: And also, you know, going to school with the guy

955
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: who wrote the theme song from Law and Order, You

956
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: know what I mean. So we all just knew each

957
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: other because we were going to the same schools, same

958
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 2: birthday parties.

959
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: Just backing up, you talk about depression in the family.

960
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: Are you depressed? Oh?

961
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: Probably? I don't know. I think it's wearing off a

962
01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 2: little bit generation a generation. Am I prone to it? Probably?

963
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: But I also know that if I have fits of depression,

964
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: you know what I've had. I've had some pretty shitty

965
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 2: things happen in my life, So I can appreciate that

966
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 2: and and you know, get myself out of it.

967
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: So you have kids. Was there any doubt about having

968
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: kids because of your upbringing? And to what degree was

969
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: your raising of your kids informs by your growing up experience.

970
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 2: Well, I never had any trepidations about having children. I

971
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: always knew that I that I wanted to. Uh. It's

972
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: funny because one of the conversations I was having with

973
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 2: moon Zappa in the last week or so, uh, and

974
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 2: and also with with Ahmet I did the podcast of them.

975
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: We were talking about, you know, our parents being these

976
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 2: sixties people, right, they they let us have so much freedom,

977
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 2: way too much freedom, and all we really ever wanted

978
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 2: was structure. And they really thought, well, they're doing us

979
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: this great favorite. Let them be free, go out do

980
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: your thing, you know. And it turns out that most

981
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: of us ended up creating completely fifties style homes and

982
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: marriages and children and lives like really super stable, you know, structured,

983
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: scheduled things because we didn't have any of that, you know,

984
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 2: and they really thought they were, you know, doing the

985
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: right thing. Probably not. Most of us really needed to

986
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,959
Speaker 2: have a little more structure, you know. And that's that's

987
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,439
Speaker 2: one thing that you know, they really, like I said,

988
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 2: they really thought they were doing the right thing. But

989
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: in the long run, I think it was we probably

990
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: would have done better with more structure.

991
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like family ties, But what are

992
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: your kids up to these days?

993
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 2: Well, my daughter is going to graduate from cal State

994
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: Northridge in the winter, just two classes to to take

995
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't let her walk come on. So they're

996
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 2: going to make her take two more classes in the winter,

997
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 2: and she's going to have a degree in education so

998
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 2: that you know, she can go get a job teaching

999
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 2: anywhere anytime. Our son is the one kid that got

1000
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: bitten by the music business bug. Did I think I

1001
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 2: was going to escape it entirely? I don't know. He

1002
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 2: wants to be a recording engineer. Well, he's actually is

1003
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: a recording engineer, and he spends a lot of time

1004
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 2: in his studio. And I raised a studio rat. What

1005
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 2: can I say? One out of two ain't bad, you know,

1006
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: but they're great. My son is twenty two and my

1007
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 2: daughter is turning twenty five. I married a guy in

1008
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 2: the music business again, big shocker. My husband is a

1009
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 2: songwriter record producer. He's one of the founding members of SONA.

1010
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 2: If you know who Sona are songwriters of North America.

1011
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 2: He's you know, you marry close to what you know?

1012
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 2: I guess you know. And we all created all of

1013
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: us kids, China and Billie Carney and Wendy, we all

1014
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: you know, created kind of the homes that we didn't have, right.

1015
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so you were in the group, which ultimately became

1016
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: Wilson Phillips, and then you weren't in the group.

1017
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 2: Yes, that is a pretty accurate statement. The way it

1018
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 2: worked was that when I first came to La we Are,

1019
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 2: the world had just been like that huge record that

1020
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 2: it was, and I thought, Wow, that is so cool.

1021
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 2: You know, people coming together for a common cause. That's

1022
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 2: really cool. And I thought, well, maybe we should, I said.

1023
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, I know all these kids, you know,

1024
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: like we were just talking about we all went to

1025
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 2: the same schools. We know all these kids, and maybe

1026
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: we could, you know, do a charity record against drugs.

1027
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 2: You know, all these sixties kids talking about drug abuse.

1028
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: Let's do that. And I called China and she thought

1029
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 2: it was a pretty good idea. And we called a

1030
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 2: bunch of people and they turned us down. We called

1031
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 2: moon Zappas she turned us down. She doesn't remember. Donovan

1032
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 2: Leitch turned us down. IONI Sky turned us down. And

1033
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 2: the only people that wanted to do anything were Carnie

1034
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: and Wendy Wilson, who I had gone to school with

1035
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 2: him at Oakwood when I was still living in and

1036
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 2: so we all started singing together, and we started doing

1037
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 2: some demos for Richard Perry back in the olden days,

1038
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 2: and it just didn't work out. You know, I I

1039
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 2: don't know how to blend. I really sing really loud,

1040
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 2: and I just kind of overpower people and I don't

1041
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 2: think that's a really good thing in a harmony group.

1042
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 2: And so things just didn't work out, and they went

1043
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: their merry little way, and of course had the success

1044
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 2: that they had, which was huge. But it came really

1045
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 2: a full circle when they when they made their record California,

1046
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 2: which was oh no, dedicated, sorry, dedicated, which was all

1047
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 2: which was a whole record dedicated to the music of

1048
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 2: the Mamas and Papas and the Beach Boys. And they

1049
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 2: asked me to come in and sing on dedicated and

1050
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 2: saying the part that was kind of known for my mom,

1051
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 2: and so I did, and you know what, it kind

1052
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: of it really closed that circle. It really closed into

1053
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 2: a nice full circle moment. And so we're all, it's

1054
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 2: all good, we all, we're all really close.

1055
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: Okay, that's thirty five years thirty four. I was there

1056
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: at their debut at SBK Records in the Desert. Oh yeah,

1057
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: you must have. That must have been very painful to

1058
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: be left out.

1059
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I was so upset. I was so upset.

1060
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was going to do. I

1061
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 2: was so mad. I was so upset. But I just

1062
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 2: kind of went, Okay, well, now I got to figure

1063
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 2: out what I'm going to do. And eventually I was

1064
01:07:54,680 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 2: able to get a demo tape together, and uh, I had.

1065
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 2: I had been managed by a guy named Roy Silver

1066
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 2: who had actually managed my mom back in the Big

1067
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 2: Three Days, and he had he was sure he could

1068
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 2: get me a deal, and he oh, he started to

1069
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 2: be very controlling and like tell me what to where

1070
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 2: and I that was not gonna fly with me. And

1071
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 2: I really didn't like being told what to do very.

1072
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 1: Much at all.

1073
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 2: So I ended up firing him. And then a year later,

1074
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 2: Wilson Phillips comes out and they're a huge success, and

1075
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: so he went ahead and without checking with me, sent

1076
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 2: the tape out and got me a deal. I was like, oh, great,

1077
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 2: And so I ended up having a deal with mc

1078
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:54,839
Speaker 2: A well with a production company that was tied to MCA,

1079
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: and I made half a record for them, and then

1080
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 2: Matt Sacheetah bought the Panasonic and just cleaned the roster,

1081
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 2: you know, just poured some chlorox on it and cleaned

1082
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: it up. And I was part of part of the

1083
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 2: people who they let go. And then I said, you

1084
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 2: know what fun ghoul music business. I don't need this.

1085
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 2: And then I ended up getting married and you know,

1086
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 2: living my life. I figured I'd go back to it

1087
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 2: if it was meant to be right.

1088
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 1: So how hard was it to give up the dream?

1089
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 2: Really hard. I think I probably still have it in

1090
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 2: some ways. You know, I sing like a maniac in

1091
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 2: my car, so I think I get it out that

1092
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 2: way and getting to you know, occasionally perform with the

1093
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 2: girls when they do shows around town. But yeah, it's

1094
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 2: not an easy one, that's for sure. And that was

1095
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 2: a big fear that I would really regret, you know,

1096
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 2: not pushing myself harder. But I also really just wanted

1097
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 2: to have a normal life, you know, and I had

1098
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:11,919
Speaker 2: just gotten married, and I just wanted to have babies

1099
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 2: and be a mom and you know, have that be

1100
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 2: my life for a while. And then I figured if

1101
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 2: it was really something that I was meant to do,

1102
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 2: then you know, there would be a way at some

1103
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 2: point that I'd be able to to sing and love

1104
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: doing it, you know, but I get older and it's okay.

1105
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: Can we talk any of this up to sexism?

1106
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: M I don't think so, because I think if I

1107
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 2: had smelled that I would have I would have lost

1108
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: my mind. I'm pretty in tune with that kind of stuff.

1109
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 1: So, now that you've finished the book and your kids

1110
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: are on the way, what's the plan for all your time?

1111
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I have no idea. I haven't even

1112
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 2: it's terrifying to even think of. I'm not sure yet.

1113
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: We actually had we'd had to put our sixteen year

1114
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 2: old dog down last week because you know, timing is everything,

1115
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 2: and my husband and I realized that we have spent

1116
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 2: the better part of the last thirty two years either

1117
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 2: taking care of a puppy or a baby or somebody

1118
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 2: or something, and we'd like to, you know, go travel,

1119
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 2: we'd like to, you know, go and do some things together.

1120
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 2: Kids are old enough we can kind of get to

1121
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 2: have a moment. So I think that's kind of what

1122
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: I'm what I'm going to do in the immediate future.

1123
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 2: And then I don't know, we'll see.

1124
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: There's another theme in the book about your biological father.

1125
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: Can you tell us something about that Chuck Day.

1126
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 2: Well, he was certainly somebody that I felt like I

1127
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 2: would appreciate more or after he had passed away, which

1128
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 2: actually is the truth. Chuck Day was born in Illinois,

1129
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 2: in Chicago, and he was a blues guy. He had

1130
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 2: he actually had his first record put out when he

1131
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:21,959
Speaker 2: was fifteen years old on a label called Federal Records

1132
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 2: under a name Underheath, his name Bang Day. His real

1133
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 2: name was Chuck Day, but his stage name was Bang Day.

1134
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 2: And he was kind of a little he was kind

1135
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 2: of a you know, protege in in that way, and

1136
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 2: his childhood and his upbringing had their own, you know story,

1137
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 2: and we don't have to get into that now. But

1138
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 2: he had a kind of a rough, a rough beginning,

1139
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: and he ended up coming to LA and with I

1140
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,639
Speaker 2: think with Johnny Rivers because he was playing with Johnny

1141
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 2: Rivers and he had he says that he wrote the

1142
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 2: opening riff to Secret Agent Man and that he had

1143
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,799
Speaker 2: based it on the TV series Tommy, on the Tommy

1144
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 2: gunn Uh TV series. He maintained till till he died

1145
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 2: that he had written that that piece and he had been,

1146
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 2: like I said, working with Johnny Rivers and Johnny Rivers

1147
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 2: had a relationship with Lou Adler in that whole camp,

1148
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 2: and so my biological father ended up playing on some

1149
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 2: Moms and Papa's records, like second Guitar, And when they

1150
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:40,320
Speaker 2: were tapped to do a tour, they chose to take

1151
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 2: him out to play guitar on their tour, and it

1152
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 2: was a one night stand my mom and the bass player. Oh,

1153
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: I guess he was playing bass at that point. My

1154
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:56,679
Speaker 2: mom and the bass player went back to her room

1155
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: at the hotel and had a lot of Chinese food

1156
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,839
Speaker 2: and alcohol. And that was the night I was conceived.

1157
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 2: And I did find that out after I met him finally,

1158
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 2: in I guess it was probably eighty six or eighty seven.

1159
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 2: I met him for the first time, and Michelle Phillips

1160
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:23,759
Speaker 2: was instrumental in me meeting him. I had had dinner

1161
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 2: with Michelle and John and Danny right after I had

1162
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 2: come to California in eighty six, and Michelle drove me

1163
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 2: home that night and I said to her on the

1164
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 2: drive home, g you know, I wish we could find

1165
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 2: out who my real father was because I had always

1166
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 2: wondered because my mom really didn't tell anybody. She took

1167
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 2: that secret right to the grave, or at least I thought,

1168
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,759
Speaker 2: because Michelle said that when she and Danny and John

1169
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,799
Speaker 2: had been in the car driving to the Imperial Gardens

1170
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 2: in LA that she had said to them, gee, you know,

1171
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 2: we never found out who Owen Vanessa's dad was, and

1172
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 2: that John and Denny like immediately shot each other a

1173
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,639
Speaker 2: look of like knowing, like, oh, you don't know, do you?

1174
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 2: She was like, wait a minute, what do you guys know?

1175
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:15,719
Speaker 2: They knew his name? So I asked her to help

1176
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 2: me find him, and she had her secretary put an

1177
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 2: ad in what was Musician magazine at the time, sort

1178
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 2: of this you know, generic ad of you know, Chuck Day,

1179
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 2: old bass player for the Mamas and Papa's call this number.

1180
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 2: Kind of made it seem like there was money or something,

1181
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 2: and like within a day one of his friends was calling, oh,

1182
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 2: is this about the kid? Well, so it turned out

1183
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 2: that he knew about me, and he had met me once,

1184
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 2: and that he had, you know, really adhere to what

1185
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 2: my mother had requested, which was don't come back and

1186
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 2: you're not her father, don't ever tell her that you are.

1187
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 2: I did find out from him after I had met him,

1188
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 2: spoken to him a couple of times that he had

1189
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 2: come to the funeral and that he had stood across

1190
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:23,799
Speaker 2: the street. Oh. I got so mad, because I wondered

1191
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 2: about him for years. He had just had the balls

1192
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 2: to walk across the street, right And by the time

1193
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 2: I met him, he was pretty pretty well into his alcoholism.

1194
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't pretty. And he had started talking to the

1195
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: press up near where he lived. He lived in Fairfax,

1196
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:58,519
Speaker 2: Marine County, and he started telling the newspapers that he'd

1197
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 2: had a child with Mama Cass, Like, dude, don't do that.

1198
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 2: And it was right around the time I was pregnant

1199
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 2: with my daughter, and I just went, I don't. I

1200
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 2: don't really want to have anything to do with him.

1201
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:13,679
Speaker 2: So I cut off contact for a really long time,

1202
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 2: but I did. But I did see him at the end.

1203
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 2: Towards the end of his life, the social worker from

1204
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,839
Speaker 2: the hospital he was in reached out to my mom's website,

1205
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 2: and I couldn't help myself. I had to. I had

1206
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 2: to see him one more time, you know, and set

1207
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 2: it straight, you know, And I showed him pictures of

1208
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 2: art of his grandchildren that he was never ever going

1209
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 2: to meet over my dead body, was ever going to

1210
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 2: meet him, but I thought that he deserved at least

1211
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 2: to see them and see pictures. So I mean it

1212
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 2: was I definitely felt like we had, you know, sewn

1213
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 2: it up, you know, that I had I had said

1214
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 2: what I needed to say, and that he had said

1215
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 2: what he needed to say. And but through him, I

1216
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 2: did find out that I had I had more family,

1217
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 2: you know. So I got to have a little relationship

1218
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:09,760
Speaker 2: with a woman who was my older sister, you know.

1219
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 2: I got to know her for a few years. So

1220
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 2: there were some there were some minor gifts, you know,

1221
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 2: along the way.

1222
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, what a trip, Okay, other than all the

1223
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: emotional considerations. Now, when you hear stories similar to this,

1224
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 1: people meet the biological relative and they say, oh I

1225
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: look like that, or I yeah like that.

1226
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 2: Oh that happened. That happened the minute, the minute he

1227
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 2: walked in and I looked at him, it's like you

1228
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 2: can feel it's almost like an electrical current. It's it's

1229
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 2: you just know that this DNA is yours. You just

1230
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:58,679
Speaker 2: know it. And I got this nose from him. This

1231
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 2: is not a Jewish nose. This is my nose. It's

1232
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 2: always been my nose. It's not the work of any

1233
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 2: plastic surgeon. It's the work of having a Swedish and

1234
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:13,679
Speaker 2: Scottish birth father, you know. And he had the same nose,

1235
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 2: only larger of course. And my son got this nose.

1236
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 2: Why my daughter didn't get this nose, Why she got

1237
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 2: the requisite Jewish schnas and not this. Never know why

1238
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:33,680
Speaker 2: that choice was made by whomever. But yeah, my sons

1239
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 2: has this, and it's true. You just know. You feel it,

1240
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 2: whether you want to or not. I wasn't really happy

1241
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 2: about feeling like, oh yeah, that you're not the Knight

1242
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:53,080
Speaker 2: in Shining Armor. I had fantasized in my brain, you know,

1243
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 2: a little bit of a disappointment. But like I said,

1244
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 2: there were a little bit of you know, silver linings,

1245
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 2: got to meet some family, got to know a little

1246
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 2: bit of history.

1247
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:12,680
Speaker 1: Talking with you, you seem, despite all of these traumas,

1248
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 1: as you labeled them in ups and downs, pretty well adjusted.

1249
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that or would you say, beneath

1250
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:21,720
Speaker 1: the surface you have no idea what's going on?

1251
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 2: Well, maybe a little bit of both. I had a

1252
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 2: lot of therapy in my life and I can attribute

1253
01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 2: a lot of my seeming mental health to that. And yeah,

1254
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:42,480
Speaker 2: I'm also not normal. You know, I can get completely

1255
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:45,599
Speaker 2: when I get mad about something. Oh it's not good,

1256
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty well adjusted and I'm not embarrassed to

1257
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 2: say it.

1258
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you're in Massachusetts living with your aunt

1259
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 1: and then ultimately going to this school. Yeah, do you

1260
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: feel special and you tell people your cass Elliot's daughter

1261
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 1: or you stay silent and all of a sudden the

1262
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:07,879
Speaker 1: word spreads.

1263
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 2: I stay silent. I stay silent. I don't don't. I

1264
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:17,719
Speaker 2: don't usually tell people. Eventually they'll find out, but mostly

1265
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 2: I want to find out if they want to hang

1266
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 2: out with me for me or you know, want to

1267
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,680
Speaker 2: know something about my mom, because I had experienced that

1268
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 2: a lot, so and any kid of any celebrity is

1269
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 2: going to feel the same way. You have a almost

1270
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 2: like a sixth sense. You have to sort of develop

1271
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 2: it because you just never know why somebody wants to

1272
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 2: be your friend. So keeping you know, your business to

1273
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:55,759
Speaker 2: yourself is usually the first plan of attack. And eventually

1274
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 2: they're going to find out anyway, But by then I

1275
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 2: might know whether or not, you know, they actually want

1276
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 2: to hang out with me or have some kind of

1277
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:07,719
Speaker 2: you know, weird ulterior motive.

1278
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:15,559
Speaker 1: So how important to you is your mother's legacy and

1279
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:17,960
Speaker 1: she and her music being remembered.

1280
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:28,680
Speaker 2: Oh, it's it's hugely important to me. I think that

1281
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 2: one of the things that most people experience, or a

1282
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 2: lot of people experience when they listen to my mom sing,

1283
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,960
Speaker 2: is they they get a little sense of hope. People

1284
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 2: people really get kind of built up, and it gives

1285
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 2: them some kind of you know, faith in humanity because

1286
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 2: she's she's she's she sounds happy. The songs that she

1287
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 2: recorded were really good, positive songs, you know, and I

1288
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 2: think she would want to be remembered like that. And

1289
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 2: I've always felt that it would be my job to

1290
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 2: make sure that that's what she would be remembered for

1291
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 2: and not the sandwich thing, you know, and that she

1292
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 2: will be remembered for, you know, her body positivity stuff,

1293
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:26,960
Speaker 2: even though she didn't all the time feel so positive

1294
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:30,639
Speaker 2: about it. You know, what she'd let other people see

1295
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 2: was that she was totally comfortable in her skin. You know.

1296
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 2: All of these things I think are really important part

1297
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 2: of her legacy and things that it's important to me

1298
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:42,800
Speaker 2: that people remember about her.

1299
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: And are you passive in terms of universal does the

1300
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 1: licenses or to what degree do you actively other than

1301
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 1: the book, try to keep her memory and music live.

1302
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:01,679
Speaker 2: Well, we have no rights as the artist. You don't

1303
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 2: have any rights to say yes you can license it

1304
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 2: or no you can't. I mean, sometimes labels are nice.

1305
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:10,679
Speaker 2: If you meet the right person who's running that particular

1306
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,679
Speaker 2: department and they want to be nice to you, they

1307
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,679
Speaker 2: might tell you what's going on. But you often don't

1308
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:18,559
Speaker 2: really have a choice. You have to sort of trust

1309
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 2: that the that the relationship between the person who's doing

1310
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 2: the licensing and you know that that that they know

1311
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 2: what you guys would want. So unfortunately, we don't really

1312
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 2: get too much control over it, and you just hope

1313
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 2: that they're going to make the right choice on what

1314
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 2: they're gonna, you know, sell the music for I forgot

1315
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 2: the second part of what you asked. I'm so sorry.

1316
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 1: Well, to what degree do you actively try to keep

1317
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:46,880
Speaker 1: her memory alive? Oh?

1318
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 2: God, well, this book, that's the first thing where we've

1319
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 2: just redesigned her website. I really, you know, the book

1320
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 2: is the is the big is the big thing right now?

1321
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 2: Will be you know, probably doing it some form of

1322
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 2: documentary at some point, and maybe down the line there

1323
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:14,360
Speaker 2: there would be you know, some film opportunities. I just

1324
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 2: want to make sure that people know who she was,

1325
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 2: you know, and why she made some of the choices

1326
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,680
Speaker 2: that she made. You know, I don't want people to

1327
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 2: remember her just as you know, the fat one from

1328
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 2: the Mamas and Papa's And honestly, I would like people

1329
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 2: to start to remember her by name. You know, people

1330
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 2: don't always remember her by name. It's begun, it's begun

1331
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 2: to kind of fade, you know, into the background. You know,

1332
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 2: if you ask somebody if they know who the mamas

1333
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 2: and papas are, these are young kids. They don't know,

1334
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 2: They have no idea if you ask them if they

1335
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:54,360
Speaker 2: if they know California Dreaming, they will know California Dreaming.

1336
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 1: You know.

1337
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 2: My goal is that they know they know my mom

1338
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 2: for who she was and some of the stuff she

1339
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 2: did after you know, the mamas and papas were. As

1340
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 2: far as the book is concerned, what were they two chapters?

1341
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 2: They weren't they weren't they weren't the whole picture, you know,

1342
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:19,719
Speaker 2: So it's a lot more to the story.

1343
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 1: And you also see in the book that she wanted

1344
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 1: to shed the Moniker Mama.

1345
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah she did, and I do believe had she lived longer,

1346
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 2: she would have. Absolutely, she would have, I really had.

1347
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,120
Speaker 2: I had a couple of really rough nights thinking about

1348
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 2: what were we going to put on the Star and

1349
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 2: the Walk of Fame, and I really just wanted to

1350
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 2: put cass Elliott. But I realized that most people know

1351
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:54,080
Speaker 2: her as Mama Cass Elliott. And that's why I agreed

1352
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 2: to do it if we put the quotes around around Mama,

1353
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 2: because that's really what it was. It was. It was

1354
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 2: an assumed little nickname, and I think she would have

1355
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 2: agreed with that, you know. And like I said, had

1356
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 2: she lived longer, we would have known her as Cass Elliott,

1357
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 2: she would have. She would have, you know, had more

1358
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 2: time to define herself as that. You know.

1359
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:24,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Owen, just one more thing. Owen conventionally is a

1360
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: male name. How was it growing up with the name Owen?

1361
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:33,240
Speaker 2: Well, I got put in all the boys camps and

1362
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 2: all the boys cabins at camp because they just thought

1363
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,679
Speaker 2: they that my parents messed up and checked the wrong box.

1364
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 2: I'm consistently, you know, on paper, mistaken for a man.

1365
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 2: I do have a deep voice, so I guess that

1366
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 2: kind of plays into a little bit. But I would

1367
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:56,599
Speaker 2: tell you my credit card, my American Express card. Every

1368
01:27:56,640 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 2: time I would give a vendor my card, they would go, ma'am,

1369
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 2: we need your card. I'd be like, this is my card, No, ma'am,

1370
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 2: did you did? So? Finally I called American Express and

1371
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 2: I had them put Missus on the card so people

1372
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 2: wild leave me alone.

1373
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 1: Wow, that's funny. In any event, Owen's book My Mama

1374
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 1: Cass is a very easy quick read. Don't think just

1375
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,719
Speaker 1: because it's a book, it's too much for you. And

1376
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 1: despite her saying there's really only two chapters on the

1377
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:40,759
Speaker 1: mamas and the papas, the story of how Mama Cass

1378
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 1: makes it from the DC Baltimore area to LA is

1379
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 1: very well put out and I certainly learned things. So

1380
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 1: I want to thank you Owen for writing the book

1381
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 1: and speaking with my audience.

1382
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan. This

1383
01:28:57,560 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 2: was a really cool thing.

1384
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 1: Well, it's great to finally see you face to face.

1385
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,799
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob Left sets

1386
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 2: H