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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: NASA has selected Jeff Bezos's Blue Origin, Fireflight Aerospace and

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Speaker 2: other private space firms to deliver robotic landers, rovers even

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Speaker 2: drones to the Moon, part of a broader push to

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Speaker 2: establish a sustained lunar presence before the end of the decade.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about a base on the Moon. Here

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Speaker 2: to discuss is NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman. Jared, it's good

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Speaker 2: to see you again and welcome back to Bloomberg Tech.

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Speaker 2: I think the question for most people is the timeline

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Speaker 2: right and which milestones you've set the team, the agency

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Speaker 2: has set itself from today to a future where we

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Speaker 2: have the first human landing on the Moon for that base.

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Speaker 3: So great to be chatting with you again on a

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Speaker 3: subject that I really enjoy, which is America's return to

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Speaker 3: the Moon and building that enduring presence, building the moonbase.

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Speaker 3: Now we are very advantage, which is why we can

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Speaker 3: move so quickly because of programs like clips like LTV

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Speaker 3: that have existed for some time at NASA. Now we're

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Speaker 3: we're just turning up the wattage here. We're you know,

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Speaker 3: sending a strong demand signal to industry. Instead of infrequent

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Speaker 3: bespoke landers you know every couple years, maybe one rover

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Speaker 3: every ten thirteen years, which was actually you know, a

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Speaker 3: previous consideration to saying, let's get in a rhythm here.

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Speaker 3: So we put a strong demand signal out to industry.

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Speaker 3: We have a handful of missions that are going to launch,

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Speaker 3: to robotic missions start building the Moon based later in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, but starting in twenty twenty seven, you

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Speaker 3: should see see a near monthly cadence of robotic landers

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Speaker 3: on the Moon, several rovers. In fact, we initially we

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Speaker 3: provided an award for the first two you know, crude

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Speaker 3: and autonomous capable rovers for the lunar surface. So when

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Speaker 3: our astronauts arrive on Artemis four and twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 3: they're going to already have some infrastructure the moon base

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Speaker 3: waiting for them.

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Speaker 4: They're already going to have a rover waiting for them.

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Speaker 1: And then in that timeframe, it's not just intermittent anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's not just those monthly visits, but when do you

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Speaker 1: think people be working, Humans might even be living in

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Speaker 1: some capacity on the Moon there.

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Speaker 3: So we are approaching the moon base in phases. So

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Speaker 3: phase one is a lot of littles. We are dusting

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Speaker 3: off the playbook that work very well for NASA in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties. We're getting back to an iterative approach.

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Speaker 3: So there was the Mercury program before there was Geminy,

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Speaker 3: There was Geminy before Apollo, and an awful lot of

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Speaker 3: Apollo missions before we went right to the moon landing

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Speaker 3: on Apollo eleven. We are doing the same thing now.

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Speaker 3: So Phase one we're calling it a science of survival.

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Speaker 3: We're not going to lock in what the mobility strategy

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Speaker 3: should be, for logistics for astronauts, the power strategy, the

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Speaker 3: surface comms, the orbital comms. Why would we try and

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Speaker 3: nail and get all of that perfect today when we

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Speaker 3: haven't been to the moon in more than a half century.

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Speaker 3: So Phase one will be a lot of land again

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Speaker 3: that near monthly cadence to learn and inform Phase two,

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Speaker 3: where perhaps now you're putting a lot more tonnage on

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Speaker 3: the lunar surface. You have a lot more direction as

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Speaker 3: to the type of hardware and capabilities you want to

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Speaker 3: lock in on, so you don't need to have maybe

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Speaker 3: monthly landings when we get into phase two, but you

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Speaker 3: have a lot more direction as to what should work

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Speaker 3: for our intended objectives, which is to build out that

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Speaker 3: habital environment. And then phase two we're going to learn

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Speaker 3: now having astronauts go from let's call it a period

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Speaker 3: of maybe even days on the lunar surface in Phase

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Speaker 3: one to potentially weeks in Phase two, to where you

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Speaker 3: might get by the time we move into Phase three,

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Speaker 3: a similar astronaut rotation like you see on the International

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Speaker 3: Space Station, where we could have crews potentially being on

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Speaker 3: the lunar surface for months on end.

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Speaker 2: You don't have that marked on your calendar, administrator, when

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Speaker 2: Phase three might have a base that has humans actually

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Speaker 2: living and working inside it.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we absolutely have time frames.

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Speaker 3: I mean we are looking at basically twenty seven through

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty nine for Phase one. You have twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: nine out into the early twenty thirties for Phase two.

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Speaker 3: But again this is all going to be informed on

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Speaker 3: what we learn during those first landings in phase one.

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Speaker 3: You know, we have a plan which is really good,

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Speaker 3: but we are going to learn, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: learn from every one of our robotic missions, every lander

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Speaker 3: that we put on the Moon to inform the next

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Speaker 3: there is a world we could pull in timeframes and

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Speaker 3: I was just talking with our Moon based team on

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Speaker 3: that just a week or two ago. You may not

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Speaker 3: need twenty some odd, you know, landings under Phase one

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Speaker 3: in order to get the in order to make determinations

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Speaker 3: as to what the early phase two habitation and power

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Speaker 3: and mobility consideration should look like. So I would say

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Speaker 3: we're extremely focused on the mission of making sure when

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Speaker 3: American astronauts returned to the lunar surface there's going to

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Speaker 3: be infrastructure there and to evolve into that enduring presence

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Speaker 3: to master the skills for where we go next, which

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Speaker 3: is which is Mars. We have a great timeline, it's

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Speaker 3: very well resourced, and we certainly have the best some

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Speaker 3: Brightest and NASA work on it. We'll adjust those timelines

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Speaker 3: as we learn.

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Speaker 2: Jared, what gave you so much conviction on Blue Origin

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Speaker 2: and Mark one in the first instance.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would just say, we have a lot of

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Speaker 3: industry that's very excited to participate right now, So we

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Speaker 3: put a heck of a demand signal out to industry

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Speaker 3: during the ignition event. There were a lot of bidders

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Speaker 3: across the landers, across the rovers. The Blue Origin Mark

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Speaker 3: one is extremely useful for us in terms of the

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Speaker 3: amount of mass it can put on the lunar surface.

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Speaker 3: That's why we're going to use it for the actual

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Speaker 3: rovers themselves, which are not small. I think also very

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Speaker 3: importantly as we are partnered with Blue Origin as one

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Speaker 3: of our two providers for putting astronauts on the Moon,

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Speaker 3: so we're going to learn an awful lot from these

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Speaker 3: Mark one landings that are that are coming up. The

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Speaker 3: transfer stage has got is very comparable to Blue Origins

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Speaker 3: approach for putting astronauts on the surface, and even though

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Speaker 3: the lander itself will be different, there'll be equaliss in

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Speaker 3: other capabilities necessary to sustain life and to crew errate it.

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Speaker 3: They will obviously learn a lot putting their landers on

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Speaker 3: the surface of the Moon will learn a lot, and

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Speaker 3: that will help inform for Artemis four and beyond, where

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Speaker 3: we are going to count on Blue Origin, as we

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Speaker 3: are going to count on SpaceX for getting our astronauts

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Speaker 3: and even more mass on the surface of the Moon

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Speaker 3: and we move into Phase two and three.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about SpaceX, Let's talk about Starship. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what you learned for Artemis on Friday night. How

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Speaker 1: much confidence do you still have and dependence do you

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Speaker 1: have on Starship succeeding.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think said simply, SpaceX is are is

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Speaker 3: probably our greatest commercial space company, hands down. We rely

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Speaker 3: on SpaceX heavily to put our astronauts to and from

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Speaker 3: the International Space Stations. We just modified an award to

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Speaker 3: provide up to I think six additional missions to SpaceX.

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Speaker 3: In that regard, they pioneered rapid reusability catching rockets on

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Speaker 3: ships on land that directly supports our scientific endeavors. We

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Speaker 3: are able to launch more missions of science and discovery

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Speaker 3: thanks to SpaceX. It's substantially brought down the cost of

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Speaker 3: capabilities that we put in geostationary orbits, some of the

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Speaker 3: heavy mass items that we use Falcon Heavy for. I

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Speaker 3: have no doubt Starship is going to contribute in a

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Speaker 3: very meaningful way. I've described it as almost a light

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Speaker 3: switch moment for humanity when you have a fully reusable

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Speaker 3: booster and upper stage that's going to be able to

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Speaker 3: efficiently put lots of mass, not just on the surface

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Speaker 3: of the Moon, someday on Mars. So you have SpaceX,

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Speaker 3: you have Blue Origin, you have an extremely healthy commercial

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Speaker 3: industry that's going to be able to support the construction

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Speaker 3: of the Moon base, is Blue.

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Speaker 1: Moon a good backup if say the big bold bets

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Speaker 1: that SpaceX takes to take a bit longer than perhaps

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Speaker 1: have been anticipating, we do see some timeline shift back.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that's why, in the wisdom of Congress

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Speaker 3: they were very supportive of NASA to have two hls,

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Speaker 3: two commercial landing providers under contract. And look, just as

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Speaker 3: competition on the geopolitical stage is driving a lot of

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Speaker 3: NASA's moves right now, which is a good thing. It

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Speaker 3: worked incredibly well for NASA during the first race. Well,

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Speaker 3: competition works very well among industry. You know, you go

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Speaker 3: to the Air and Space Museum here in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 3: when you walk through the main doors, you're going to

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Speaker 3: see a grummin lemb the landers that we use to

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Speaker 3: put astronauts back on the Moon during the first Space Race.

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Speaker 3: I have no doubt whether it's SpaceX or Blue Origin,

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Speaker 3: they'd like to see their landers there as well, So

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Speaker 3: I think they understand what's at stake. We love the

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Speaker 3: competition between the two of them. And the nice thing is,

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Speaker 3: over the next couple of years, we're going to see

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Speaker 3: an awful lot of New Glen's launch. We're going to

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Speaker 3: see an awful lot of Mark one landers. We're going

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Speaker 3: to see an awful lot of starships, and then we're

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Speaker 3: going to bring them all together with Artemis III in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: Jared, there's an awful lot of focus right now on

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Speaker 2: the orbital economy or future orbito economy, in part because

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Speaker 2: of SPACEXS S one. Right, But I believe earlier this

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Speaker 2: year on a podcast, you said that the orbital economy,

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Speaker 2: or the idea of it, has been grossly overstated. Right,

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Speaker 2: you were pretty modest. I suppose about what the reality

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Speaker 2: that looks like As your thinking on that changed, and

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Speaker 2: what led you to make those comments. What is it

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Speaker 2: that you see about a future economy in space, indeed

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Speaker 2: on the Moon, that maybe industry is overstating or the

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Speaker 2: outside world is overstating.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm just to be clear. I want nothing

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Speaker 3: more than to see an orbital economy. I want to

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Speaker 3: see a lunar economy come to fruition. I want lots

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Speaker 3: of commercial space stations, lots of outposts on the Moon.

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Speaker 3: I want my kids to grow up in a world

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Speaker 3: where maybe they could go to the Moon and then

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Speaker 3: we press on, we press onto Mars.

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Speaker 4: I think it's my job when I when I.

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Speaker 3: Take a look at the resources that are entrusted into

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Speaker 3: the agency by Congress, by the taxpayers every single year

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Speaker 3: to make sure you know that we maximize the scientific

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Speaker 3: discovery value out of every bit of it. And that

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Speaker 3: results in making you know, kind of a build by

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Speaker 3: partner decision on almost every procurement. And in that regard,

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Speaker 3: there are some areas where we can buy services. NASA

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Speaker 3: can where we are one customer of many, and that

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Speaker 3: that's a great thing because then you have competitive forces

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Speaker 3: that can improve a product and service capability and drive

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Speaker 3: down costs. We know this to exist as it has

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Speaker 3: existed for more than a half century. In launch, observation,

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Speaker 3: and communication, NASA is one customer of many across all

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Speaker 3: three of those services. The dow is other commercial companies

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Speaker 3: are when we start looking at other things to do,

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Speaker 3: like let's just say, build a moon base.

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Speaker 4: And I said this in yesterday's prece event.

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Speaker 3: Look, I can put a demand signal out to industry

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Speaker 3: and buy dozens of landers for the lunar surface to

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Speaker 3: start constructing the moon base ten years from now. Can

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Speaker 3: I tell you who's going to buy the fiftieth lander

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Speaker 3: if it's not NASA. I don't have a clue, but

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Speaker 3: I certainly hope that we will find a way to

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Speaker 3: get more value out than what we have to put

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Speaker 3: in to being on the lunar surface or being in

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Speaker 3: microgravity outside of the established launch, observation and communication economy

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Speaker 3: that already exists, right.

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Speaker 1: And the demand signals being put out by NASA, but

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Speaker 1: they're also being put out by other countries and other

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Speaker 1: ways in which we see competitions versus China. How do

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Speaker 1: you see the Chinese focus on the moon and whether

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Speaker 1: it is a real competitive force versus NASA right now?

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Speaker 3: Well, like I said, competition is a great thing. It

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Speaker 3: worked incredibly well for us during the first Spase race

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties. It allows us to do exactly

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Speaker 3: what we're doing now at NASA, which is concentrate our

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Speaker 3: resources on the most pressing national objectives and then also

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Speaker 3: to empower our workforce to move at a speed that

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Speaker 3: they haven't done in decades. And I'd say we're off

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Speaker 3: to a good start coming off of Artemis two and

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Speaker 3: where we're going next with Artemis three in twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 3: In terms of how I see this competition now, look

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Speaker 3: that getting the boots on the surface of the Moon

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Speaker 3: itself is probably going to be the closest element to this.

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Speaker 3: I would say that the Chinese approach to it is

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Speaker 3: very similar to the Apollo program, lots of missions, iterative approach.

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Speaker 3: We were up until a couple months. We're going to

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Speaker 3: go going from Artemis two flying around the Moon to

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Speaker 3: waiting three years to landing on the Moon, which I've

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Speaker 3: said many times is not ingredients for success. You need

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Speaker 3: to be in the business launching heavy lift rockets with frequency,

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Speaker 3: and you can't turn them all into a work of art.

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Speaker 3: That said, I think NASA is extremely advantaged thanks to

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Speaker 3: our partnership with industry and building the Moon base. Like

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Speaker 3: I said, we had the CLIPS program, we have the

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Speaker 3: LTV program. We have the healthiest launch market in the

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Speaker 3: history of America's space program from SpaceX and Blue Origin

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Speaker 3: Rocket Lab Stoke, I mean, you name it. That means

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Speaker 3: we have the ability to put a lot of mass

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Speaker 3: on the lunar surface exactly where we want to be,

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Speaker 3: not just landers, but rovers, start experimenting with power, mobility, communications,

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Speaker 3: all the things you need to build a moon base.

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Speaker 3: We are very advantaged in that regard. And then in

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Speaker 3: terms of what comes next. We are going to finally

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Speaker 3: America is going to finally get underway a nuclear power

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Speaker 3: propulsion in space in twenty twenty eight when we launch

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Speaker 3: SR one Freedom, and that is key to extending to

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Speaker 3: achieving human missions to Mars someday and exploring the outer

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Speaker 3: Solar System. So we have a lot of advantages, but

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Speaker 3: probably the one that people are paying most attention to

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Speaker 3: that is going to come down to months