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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. I

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Speaker 1: just got back from the cop in Brazil last week.

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Speaker 1: We ran quite a few stories on it. If you

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Speaker 1: are interested to know some more details about what happened,

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Speaker 1: those are all at drilled dot Media. Today we're bringing

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Speaker 1: you an episode of the cop Out Podcast from Dana Fisher.

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Speaker 1: She's a sociologist that we've had on the show before.

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Speaker 1: She's particularly an expert on activism. She's written a ton

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Speaker 1: of books on this subject, most recently Saving Ourselves from

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Speaker 1: Climate Shocks to Climate Action. Dana has been doing this

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Speaker 1: series all around the cop and how and why it's

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Speaker 1: broken and what can be done about it. It's very

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Speaker 1: very good.

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Speaker 2: Check it out.

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Speaker 1: We'll put a link in the show notes. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: she had myself and doctor Catherine Hayho on to talk

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Speaker 1: about climate communication and what happened at COP and what

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Speaker 1: we can take from it all. I had a great

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Speaker 1: time talking to them both, and I hope you enjoy

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Speaker 1: the conversation here it.

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Speaker 2: Is Welcome to the cop Out Podcast. I'm Dana Fisher,

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Speaker 2: the director of the Center for Environment, Community and Equity

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Speaker 2: at American University. This is an opportunity to have apocalyptically

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Speaker 2: optimistic climate conversations. And there's lots to talk about today,

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Speaker 2: and I am so happy and privileged to be joined

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Speaker 2: by these amazing women who do such amazing work. And

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Speaker 2: I just thought we would start. I mean, so just

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Speaker 2: as a wrap up here, COP is winding down. Literally

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Speaker 2: the blue zone set on fire yesterday, perhaps assigned from

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Speaker 2: you now, from like from from this, from the gods perhaps.

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Speaker 2: And then today the draft text for the final text

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Speaker 2: coming out of COP was released, which made no mention

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Speaker 2: to fossil fuel phase out, ignored completely the eighty some

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Speaker 2: countries that were actually pushing for a fossil fuel phase out.

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Speaker 2: So we have lots to talk about. To begin, what

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Speaker 2: I thought maybe would be good to do is for

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Speaker 2: you each to take a moment to introduce yourselves. You're

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Speaker 2: both climate communicators in really different ways, and you have

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Speaker 2: really different backgrounds. So maybe talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: how you came to do the kind of climate communication

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Speaker 2: you do, just as a start, and of course we'll

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Speaker 2: get into COP, we'll get into climate change and the

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Speaker 2: mess we're in, but you know, just a little background first, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: you want to start.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Yes, I love that you talking to Amy and

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Speaker 3: I both because we both came from totally different directions.

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Speaker 3: So I am a climate scientist, and I actually started

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Speaker 3: my career in astrophysics, which is a fascinating feel to

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Speaker 3: be in if there's no other dumpster fires going on

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Speaker 3: in the world. And so for me, my first inflection

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Speaker 3: point was when I took a class on climate change

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Speaker 3: as a breadth requirement, and that was where I learned

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Speaker 3: that climate change is. I already knew it was real,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't realize it was so urgent. I didn't

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Speaker 3: realize it was affecting our lives so personally, and I

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Speaker 3: didn't realize it was so unfair in that it is

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Speaker 3: disproportionately affecting the people who've done the least to cause

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Speaker 3: the problem in the first place. Whether it's the fact

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Speaker 3: that the richest one percent in the world today produced

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Speaker 3: double the carbon emissions of the poorest fifty percent, or

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Speaker 3: whether it's the fact that a child born today will

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Speaker 3: experience so many disasters over their lifetime as a result

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Speaker 3: of the choices that our generation and previous generations made

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Speaker 3: that they weren't part of in the first place. So

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Speaker 3: for me, my first inflection point was just realizing I

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Speaker 3: need to do something about this, and I have a

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Speaker 3: scientific skill set, so I will become a climate scientist.

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Speaker 3: It turns out the same physics and astronomy I was

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Speaker 3: learning is just what you need to do climate modeling,

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Speaker 3: because you know it's your's atmosphere, non linear fluid dynamics,

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Speaker 3: radiative transfer. So that was my first inflection point. And

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Speaker 3: then a number of years later after becoming a climate scientist,

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Speaker 3: after getting married to a fellow academic who you know,

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Speaker 3: when you're an academic, the dream is that you have

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Speaker 3: positions in the same place, and so he was at

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Speaker 3: one place, I was at a different place, and then

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Speaker 3: he got offered a position in Texas and he sort

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Speaker 3: of said, okay, well if you give if you know,

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Speaker 3: if you give my spouse a position, we'll both come.

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Speaker 3: And we both thought, oh, there's no chance of that.

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Speaker 3: Well they did. So that's how I ended up in Texas.

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Speaker 3: And then within just a couple of months of ending

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Speaker 3: up in Texas, and I was already doing research that

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Speaker 3: was intentionally very policy relevant because I wanted to inform

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Speaker 3: good policy decisions on climate. Within a few months of

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Speaker 3: arriving in Texas, it turns out I was the first

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Speaker 3: climate scientist at the university. I was the only climate

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Speaker 3: scientist within literally a five hundred mile radius. I plotted

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Speaker 3: it out, and so I started to get invitations to

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Speaker 3: speak to community groups who were, you know, confused about

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Speaker 3: climate change, weren't sure what to think, had heard a

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Speaker 3: lot on both saws, and they're like, oh, well, here's

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Speaker 3: a climate scientist, let's ask her. And so that experience

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Speaker 3: really taught me. And I still do almost one hundred

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Speaker 3: talks a year these days, most of them virtual. Those

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Speaker 3: experiences taught me that having conversations about not just that

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Speaker 3: what I think is the head, which is the facts,

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Speaker 3: the data, the ice sheets, the polar bears, but making

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Speaker 3: the heart connection my family, my home, the places I love,

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Speaker 3: the people and the things I love, is so important,

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Speaker 3: and that in itself isn't even enough. We also need

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Speaker 3: to make the heart to hand connection because today, in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, most people are worried about climate change,

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Speaker 3: but most people feel there's nothing they can do about it,

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Speaker 3: so they do nothing, and they're actually starting to dissociate

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Speaker 3: from the issue as a defense mechanism as the situation

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Speaker 3: gets worse. So how do we connect the head to

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Speaker 3: the heart to the hands. Well, the first and easiest

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Speaker 3: way to do it is through communicating, not like lining

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Speaker 3: up all the IPCC reports and just whacking people upside

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Speaker 3: the head with them, but rather starting the conversation with

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Speaker 3: what people care about themselves. And I've started conversations based on,

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Speaker 3: you know, the fact that we're both parents, or we

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Speaker 3: both live in the same place, or we both enjoy

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Speaker 3: chocolate and that's being affected by climate change, or I've

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Speaker 3: even had conversations if we started over the fact that

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Speaker 3: we both knit, and then connecting that to hands what

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Speaker 3: we can do. So that is what led me to

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Speaker 3: my communication journey, because I started to realize that the

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Speaker 3: biggest barrier between where we are today and that better

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Speaker 3: future that we all need is in addressing the climate

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Speaker 3: crisis is understanding what we can do about it and

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Speaker 3: getting people to actually be active about doing it. And

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Speaker 3: that's not going to be answered by more scientific journal articles.

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Speaker 3: That's going to be answered by having conversations.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, that's really great. Sorry my computer was being

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Speaker 2: annoying for a second. Amy, Why don't you give us

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Speaker 2: your journey?

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Speaker 1: My gosh, Well, I so any people do. I started

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Speaker 1: I like The first thing I ever did remotely related

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Speaker 1: to climate was just because I needed to pay the

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Speaker 1: rent and it was due in two weeks. And I

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Speaker 1: had a friend who was an engineer at an engineering

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Speaker 1: firm and he was like, well, we have this really

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Speaker 1: boring copywriting job that needs to be done next week

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Speaker 1: where we need someone to write case studies about some

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Speaker 1: of our projects. And I was like, okay, fine, I'm

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Speaker 1: in thank you, and I did. And one of them

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Speaker 1: was a project they had done for Shell where they'd

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Speaker 1: been asked to re engineer offshore oil platforms to deal

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Speaker 1: with sea level rise. And this was like a project

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Speaker 1: that they had done in the nineties, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting because I feel like Shell wasn't even really

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Speaker 1: acknowledging climate change in the nineties, and so I like

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Speaker 1: looked into it. And I was freelancing at the time,

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Speaker 1: so I was like, this is an interesting story. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to pitch it to an environmental magazine, and I did,

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Speaker 1: and then they hired me to do some other stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I sort of just like became obsessed with this

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Speaker 1: power structure, so totally not the science side of things.

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Speaker 1: I was like, that's unfair, These big, powerful companies had

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Speaker 1: this information and they were preparing their own industry to

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Speaker 1: deal with this issue, and at the same time they

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Speaker 1: were telling everybody else not to worry about it, and

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Speaker 1: like how did that happen? And then I just sort

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Speaker 1: of went from there into like, I very obsessively researched

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Speaker 1: climate denial, and then there again was like this is

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Speaker 1: a dumb strategy. Why did it work so well? So

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Speaker 1: I got obsessed with pr and the whole Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know the way that the fossil fuel industry, way

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Speaker 1: before climate change really set in place some fundamental ideas

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Speaker 1: about how the environment works and what is nature, and

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Speaker 1: how the economy works and all of those kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: I have just kind of been down that same rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole ever since.

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Speaker 4: And at a certain point, when the.

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Speaker 1: X on New story came out, and you know, reporters

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Speaker 1: at Inside Climate News and the Los Angeles Times and

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Speaker 1: Columbia Journalism School published on all of these documents that

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Speaker 1: came from inside XON, where the scientists had been trying

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Speaker 1: to warn executives about what their product could do and

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Speaker 1: you know, how things might change in the decades to come.

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Speaker 4: I felt like I wanted to hear from.

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Speaker 1: Those scientists themselves, so and I thought that like I wanted,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I was just like, man, like more,

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Speaker 1: more people who don't already care about climate need to

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Speaker 1: hear this story. So I went out to talk to

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Speaker 1: those guys and spent a lot of time like hanging

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Speaker 1: out with long retired scientists and having them read documents

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Speaker 1: to me and tell me about, you know, their science

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Speaker 1: and all of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: And that got me obsessed with podcasting.

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Speaker 1: So now I have a podcast that I still do

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Speaker 1: reporting and I'm still just obsessed with this like hijacking

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Speaker 1: of the information ecosystem and policymaking mechanisms by this one

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Speaker 1: very powerful industry and a lot of their friends.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, they're famous and fancy friends exactly. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's funny. So I never really thought about I mean,

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Speaker 2: so I came to climate just because when I was

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Speaker 2: doing my PhD, I needed a case study that I

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Speaker 2: could study internationally and also at the national level. And

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Speaker 2: it was when the Kyoto Protocol was being written in finalize.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting and it was like a perfect case

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Speaker 2: for the political questions I was asking. So I actually

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Speaker 2: came at it from the politics, and I was. I

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Speaker 2: had this grant in Japan and my advisor who was

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Speaker 2: who did the Asia Integrated Model for the IPCC, Maria Tunayuki,

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Speaker 2: he was like, you should do climate and I'm like, hm, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is good idea. This is a good idea. And

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Speaker 2: so it was just funny because it all started just

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Speaker 2: because it was a good case study for the kinds

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Speaker 2: of stuff I was studying. And then well, and then

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Speaker 2: down the rabbit, how we go, and here we are, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: twenty five years later or whatever, right, more than that now?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I guess.

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Speaker 2: It is funny that you all come from this from

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Speaker 2: very different places, but here we are. And so the

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Speaker 2: question I have for you next.

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Speaker 3: And it all happened in the nineties, which is when

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Speaker 3: climate change was not a politicized issue.

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Speaker 2: At that time.

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Speaker 3: The disinformation engine was just starting to ramp up the impacts.

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Speaker 3: The signal was just starting to emerge from the noise

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Speaker 3: at that point. But if you look for the signal,

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Speaker 3: it was there. And so each of us, for different reasons,

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Speaker 3: came into contact with the signal in the nineties and

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Speaker 3: that was powerful enough to basically change the entire trajectory

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Speaker 3: of our careers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fascinating, very true.

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Speaker 2: I mean I did go to meetings with the Cooler

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Speaker 2: Heads coalition who were part of the case for my

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Speaker 2: dissertaine and ended up getting kicked out of their meetings

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Speaker 2: because they were definitely birthing some misinformation back then. But

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Speaker 2: it was very early days, right, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: But I interned at Exon for my master's degree. I

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Speaker 3: actually worked on with their full.

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Speaker 2: Did they pay? Was it a paid internship at least?

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Speaker 2: I certainly hope so.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was paid, and we published peer reviewed papers

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Speaker 3: at my research that were you know, with some they

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Speaker 3: have some really good scientists. Obviously their scientists have known

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Speaker 3: about this and been telling the company about this for decades.

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Speaker 3: And what we were studying was related to Kyoto. We

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Speaker 3: were studying how when you're talking about reducing emissions of

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Speaker 3: greenhouse gases, you have to reduce all of the gases,

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Speaker 3: not just CO two, and methane is one of the

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Speaker 3: ones that is really powerful, really potent, is responsible for

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Speaker 3: somewhere between about sixteen eighteen percent of long term warming

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Speaker 3: and a much greater proportion of short term warming. And

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Speaker 3: methane is real call that natural gas. Even I know,

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Speaker 3: I know FOSCIL gas is what we now call it.

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Speaker 3: Massive amounts of it are released during the extraction of coal,

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Speaker 3: oil and leaking from gas. So that is a very

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Speaker 3: important research area. But it rapidly became obvious, and even

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Speaker 3: then what we were saying back in the nineties was

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Speaker 3: true with Kyoto, and it's much more true today. There's

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Speaker 3: no one thing that if we just did this one thing,

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Speaker 3: it would fix it. It was very obvious even then that

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Speaker 3: reducing methane was something that we could do super fast

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Speaker 3: to really get a handle on this issue while we

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Speaker 3: were working on the longer term CO two reductions. And

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Speaker 3: if we had done that back in the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 3: we had been a much better spot than the are today.

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Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, I mean that Actually, what I was

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Speaker 2: going to ask you both is a foll up question,

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Speaker 2: is just how you ended up communicating about this stuff

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Speaker 2: specifically within the policy world, or like communicating two politicians

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Speaker 2: communicating about politicians that kind of policy nexus. Amy you

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Speaker 2: want to go to it, well, I mean, if it's

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Speaker 2: a stumper, we don't have to go there.

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Speaker 4: It's no, no, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: The thing I mean, the main I would say, like

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Speaker 1: that the main input that that we have had on

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Speaker 1: policy is documents. It's like like giving documents to senate

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Speaker 1: investigators or to chiefs of staff who are looking at,

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Speaker 1: you know, particular issues, or like someone will contact me

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Speaker 1: and be like, do you know, do you know if

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Speaker 1: there's any evidence of you know, this PR firm doing

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Speaker 1: anything and this thing blah blah blah, and I'll send them.

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Speaker 4: Uh oh, I'm hearing an echo.

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Speaker 2: Now you sound fine from here?

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, So yeah, that's the that's the main thing

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Speaker 1: for me. And then I know there are some I

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Speaker 1: have like met some policy makers who say that they

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Speaker 1: have either like listened to the podcast or read stuff

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Speaker 1: and shared it with other people and things like that.

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Speaker 1: But I think in terms of like a actually communicating

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Speaker 1: things that are useful to policy makers, it's it's more

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Speaker 1: that like we go find documents.

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Speaker 2: Or people will communicate about policy making to the public,

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Speaker 2: which they also has that boomerang effect in terms of

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Speaker 2: then changing potentially public opinion or political pressure.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yes, that's true, that's truly important.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say too, that we do so

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Speaker 1: often like for whatever reason, I don't know how this

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Speaker 1: still happens, but not infrequently. I will be interviewing someone

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Speaker 1: who you know is like an operative of some kind,

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Speaker 1: and they will just like very explicitly say what they're

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Speaker 1: trying to do in terms of like hijacking policy too.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, great, thank you for being by job easy.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of doing deep research there.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 3: It's it's like okay, yeah, Gilver Platter fill it up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, actually, I mean even at this COP I

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Speaker 1: was at the cop and there were several of these

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Speaker 1: like side events that different industry groups were having where

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Speaker 1: they were just I guess they just thought they were

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Speaker 1: talking amongst themselves, and we're saying some a lot of

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Speaker 1: the quiet parts were getting said out loud.

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Speaker 2: Why not travel all the way to Brazil to have

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Speaker 2: a private meeting? Yeah, exactly, why not with the journalist?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like, this is open to the press.

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Speaker 4: You guys like, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's well, it's a measure I think of. They're confidence.

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Speaker 3: When people are very confident they're going to win, they

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Speaker 3: don't care, and that's really what we're seeing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well I love this question, yes, because that's actually the

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Speaker 3: very first thing that I wanted to do when I

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Speaker 3: decided to go switch from astrophysics to climate science is

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Speaker 3: I wanted to make sure I was doing policy relevant

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Speaker 3: research because I'm a huge believer in informed decision making.

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Speaker 3: I know that our human brains typically do not make

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Speaker 3: rational decisions, but I do hope that and I know

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Speaker 3: there is sign of an evidence that when we make

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Speaker 3: collective decisions with many more people and interests at the table,

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Speaker 3: we have a tendency to make better decisions. And those decisions,

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Speaker 3: if they're informed by science and by information, can improve.

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Speaker 3: And so when I went to look for an advisor,

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Speaker 3: because I was finishing up my undergrad degree and going

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Speaker 3: on to graduate school, I specifically looked for an advisor

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Speaker 3: who did policy bolevant research. And I found this wonderful

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Speaker 3: man who's like my academic father. I still talk to

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Speaker 3: him on a regular basis. His name is Don Webbles.

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Speaker 3: He's at the University of Illinois, and he had done

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Speaker 3: his initial research on developing metrics to measure the ozone

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Speaker 3: depleting substances so that you could compare how much worse

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Speaker 3: or better different ones were. And he worked with the

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Speaker 3: FAA and with DuPont and with the EPA to actually

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Speaker 3: put the pair the Montreal Protocol limiting ozone depleting substanses

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Speaker 3: into effect. And he actually tested all these new chemicals

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Speaker 3: that the organizations were coming up with to replace the

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Speaker 3: chemicals we used to use in our spray hands and

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Speaker 3: even our Nike air shoes of all things, and our

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Speaker 3: air conditioners and our fridges to figure out better ones.

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Speaker 3: And he had just turned his attention to looking at

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Speaker 3: comparing different greenhouse gases too, And so I immediately figured,

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Speaker 3: I want to work with this person who's doing policy

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Speaker 3: relevant research. Some work I did for my master's degree

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Speaker 3: which was literally looking at how much more affordable it

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Speaker 3: would be for the US to meet its Kyoto targets

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Speaker 3: if it included all the greenhouse gases, not just carbon

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Speaker 3: And that work was actually presented to Congress in part

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Speaker 3: of the debates over whether the US should be a

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Speaker 3: signatory to the Kyuto Protocol. So at that point I

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Speaker 3: was like.

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Speaker 2: Almost that as part of the bird Hegel resolution when

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Speaker 2: they were debating that is that when it was, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious.

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Speaker 3: Goodness, I actually don't know. That's a good question. I

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Speaker 3: know I remember when the date when it was, but

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Speaker 3: I don't remember what part of the resolution it was.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, but it was definitely.

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Speaker 2: Part of it.

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Speaker 3: And so at that point I was like, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 3: this is awesome. You know, this is exactly what I

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Speaker 3: want to do. Well, then, as you know, all efforts

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Speaker 3: to pass mitigation legislation in the US just sort.

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Speaker 2: Of went like this.

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Speaker 3: And at the same time, I ended up getting pulled

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Speaker 3: into after my master's and before my PHG, ended up

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Speaker 3: getting pulled into a regional climate assessment. And that was

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Speaker 3: where I learned that people who were making decisions on

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Speaker 3: how to protect nature and people from climate change were

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Speaker 3: working with future information that was years and even decades

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Speaker 3: out of date. It was the equivalent to me trying

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Speaker 3: to drive down the street without my glasses, and my

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Speaker 3: glasses are very thick, like I would just see sort

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Speaker 3: of a hazy outline, and if I saw a light,

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Speaker 3: I don't think i'd even know if it was a

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Speaker 3: stoplight or not. So that was sort of the way

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Speaker 3: that people were twenty thirty years ago working with climate information,

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Speaker 3: and so that's what made me decide to sort of

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Speaker 3: refocus my trajectory to look at climate impacts, and especially

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Speaker 3: back then, climate impacts were being qualified as the middle

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Speaker 3: of the road scenario. This is what's going to happen

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Speaker 3: no matter what. Well, that is a completely disempowering perspective,

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Speaker 3: because if it's going to happen no matter what, then

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Speaker 3: you know, who cares. We'll just adapt. But what I

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Speaker 3: knew is I knew that our choices made a difference,

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Speaker 3: and now today we know that our choices make the

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Speaker 3: biggest difference in the future. And so I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: what if not only we generated high resolution information. So

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Speaker 3: if you're working, for example, in the Midwest US, you

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Speaker 3: don't have like one grid cell covering the whole US,

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Speaker 3: you actually have information for Chicago versus Milwalk, versus Minneapolis,

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Speaker 3: versus the other sides of the lake in Michigan because

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Speaker 3: the climate is very different in all those places. What

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Speaker 3: if you not only had very granular information, but you

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Speaker 3: also had information on what's going to happen depending on

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Speaker 3: the choices we make. So what's going to happen for

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Speaker 3: a lower versus a higher scenario? So I said this

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Speaker 3: to the Union of Concerned Scientists and the Ecological Society

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Speaker 3: of America that we're sponsoring this Great Lakes Assessment that

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Speaker 3: I was working on, and they said, well, it's too

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Speaker 3: late to do it now, But what if we do

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Speaker 3: another one for California, which is one of the world's

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Speaker 3: biggest economies, and we look at higher versus lower emissions there,

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Speaker 3: would you like to be in charge of getting that

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Speaker 3: information for us? And so I, being very young and naive,

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Speaker 3: said yes, of course, I would love to do that.

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Speaker 3: And then then I realized that at that point, the

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Speaker 3: global climate models had not even run the higher scenarios

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Speaker 3: because physical climate scientists work with physical uncertainty, and physical

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Speaker 3: uncertainty is what we call Gaussian or a normal distribution,

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Speaker 3: which means it looks like this, which means that the

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Speaker 3: middle is more likely to be accurate than the tales.

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Speaker 3: So physical scientists had applied this same principle to future scenarios,

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Speaker 3: and they had said, oh, well, we'll just run the

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Speaker 3: middle scenarios because we don't have infinite computer time in

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Speaker 3: the middle scenarios are most likely. But human behavior is

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Speaker 3: not Gaussian. Human behavior is completely unpredictable. If anything, it

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Speaker 3: might be like, well, we're heading for this scenario and

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Speaker 3: then oh shit, look how bad it is. We will

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Speaker 3: quickly head for this scenario. So we didn't even have

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Speaker 3: the global climate model simulations to look at the higher scenarios.

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Speaker 3: Except for in the UK. They were the only ones

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Speaker 3: who'd done it. So I had to go cap in hand,

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Speaker 3: and this is me, you know, in the nineties as

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Speaker 3: a graduate student, go cap in hand to some of

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Speaker 3: the biggest modeling organizations in the US, the National Center

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Speaker 3: for Atmospheric Research, the Geophysical Fluidynamics Lab, and ask them,

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Speaker 3: out of the goodness of their heart, if they would

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Speaker 3: be willing to run the higher scenarios. And they did,

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Speaker 3: and so for California. In two thousand and three, we

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Speaker 3: published the first impact study in all of North America

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Speaker 3: and one of the very first in the entire world

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Speaker 3: world that actually quantified the difference between if we address

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Speaker 3: climate change at scale versus if we don't, what will

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Speaker 3: be the impacts on your water supply, your snowpack, your

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Speaker 3: wine grapes, your central valley crop harvests, the wildfire risk.

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Speaker 3: We actually quantified the impact of human decisions. And two

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Speaker 3: years later, the Governor of California, actually one and a

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Speaker 3: half years later, the Governor of California, who at that

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Speaker 3: time was Arnold Schwarzenegger, who of course is also a Republican,

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Speaker 3: signed the first executive order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions

438
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 3: of any state in the US, and as he signed it,

439
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 3: he had our California authors standing in a semicircle behind him,

440
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: and they cited our study as evidence of why they

441
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 3: had to reduce emissions.

442
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: That's political, that's political connection there. That's so interesting. I mean,

443
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: it's funny because my supervisor in my PhD actually was

444
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: famous for saying that when we deal with a lot

445
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: of environmental problems, it's the tail that wags the distribution.

446
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 2: He loved to say that because it really is, and

447
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: he talked. I mean, he was famous for doing the

448
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: work on disproportionality, which was all about these how these

449
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: extreme actors, the extreme emitters, were the ones that basically

450
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: are driving the entire distribution in a lot of ways.

451
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: Which is just what we see happening with cop today.

452
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: Exactly right. And now, I mean, and now it's like

453
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: he unfortunately passed away a number of years ago, but

454
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm sure that he is rolling in his grave and

455
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: he's like, why didn't anybody read that work that I

456
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: published so many years ago? But I mean, that's why,

457
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: and that's why being a climate communicator is so important,

458
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: because the information has to get out there. But I

459
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: mean that brings us to my question about cup. Right,

460
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: So we have this climate, we have this climate regime

461
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: that basically, you know, all the secrets are out in

462
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: the open, like there you know all. I mean, back

463
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: when I used to go to the climate negotiations instead

464
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: of sitting at home talking to you amazing people like

465
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: you guys, I used to go there and we would

466
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 2: sit at coffee and we would whisper like, oh, that

467
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: person's actually with you know, they're funded by Exxon or

468
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: they're like they have connections to fossil fuel industry in

469
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 2: this way. But they all came under cover. Nobody showed

470
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: up and was like I'm here, I'm gonna just stop everything, right,

471
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: and I'm just so like, I can't believe where we

472
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 2: are today, But I want to know kind of impressions

473
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: on where we are based on what we've seen. I mean,

474
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: I mean, Emmy, you were just there, give us some

475
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: on the ground, you know, perspective.

476
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, like Catherine was saying,

477
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: they no longer feel any compulsion to like pretend that

478
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: they're not there.

479
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: To you know, fart in church. But it's wild to me,

480
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 4: actually know.

481
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: It was so interesting to me was like how few

482
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: of the people who were you know, with either civil

483
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: society groups or universities or whatever that like to try

484
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: to encourage climate action knew like how many fossil fuel

485
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: lobbyists were there, or how many carbon capture lobbyists were there,

486
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: or how many big agg lobby Like it was like

487
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: a surprise to them, and I'm like wow, Like to me,

488
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: it's like, yes, of course this thing is inundated by industry.

489
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: Last year it was crazy. It's just continuously.

490
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the I don't know the extent to which

491
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: even if you were to get rid of all of

492
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: the lobbyists, so many of the negotiators in the room

493
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: are doing the bidding of the industry, you.

494
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 4: Know, either.

495
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: Either from you know, oil states like Saudi Arabia or

496
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: even Norway's entire booth was like equinor employees, you know.

497
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 3: I read and it says, I'm curious, is this is

498
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 3: something that you saw that Brazil was requiring all attendees

499
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 3: to actually disclose who funded them? So oh at this time,

500
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: like the fossil fuel attendees, like previous hosts were petro states.

501
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: Brazil is not a petro stated, though it certainly has

502
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: a lot of natural gas resources. But yeah, I heard

503
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: that that the fossil fuel attendees outnumber all delegations except

504
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 3: for Brazil, and they're there even though they're required to

505
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: actually disclose their funding. How did you see that?

506
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean, well, the thing is.

507
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: It's like the theoretically they have to disclose the theoretically,

508
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: like lobbyists are supposed to badge appropriately and whatever.

509
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 4: But if they're if they are.

510
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: Like smuggled in through a country's delegation, then like that

511
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: goes out the window. Or if they are you know,

512
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they're at a university but most of their

513
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: research is funded by the fossil fuel industry, then like

514
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: they're just wearing their university's tag. Or the one that

515
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: we've looked at a lot is IPEKA the God. I

516
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: can never remember what the acronym stands for because they

517
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: changed it to just IPEKA a few years ago. But

518
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: it's the International Petroleum Industry Environmental Conservation Association, which is

519
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: this like weird little entity that was created by the

520
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: UN as part of UNP in the seventies, and it

521
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: was created for the sole purpose of, at the time,

522
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: you know, getting the industry together to coordinate on global

523
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: environmental issues, which was mostly oil spills in that moment.

524
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: But it's very clear in the forming documents of that

525
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: organization that the industry saw this as like the way

526
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: that they were going to have a window into the

527
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: UN processes and make sure that industri's.

528
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 4: Perspective was clear.

529
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: That was nineteen seventy three, So they've been there.

530
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 4: The whole time, you know, like the.

531
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: What is it the oh my god, I can't think

532
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: of the expression coming from inside the house, but like anyway,

533
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: it's like.

534
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: Yes, it's just like all is coming from inside the.

535
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 4: All is coming from inside the house exactly.

536
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: They screen movie. I saw a preview for it in

537
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: a movie theater, so you know, yeah, fah.

538
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 4: So they're they're you know.

539
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: So IPEKA started in the seventies part of UNIP then

540
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: in the late nineties they spun off to be their

541
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: own nonprofit, but they are still an official observer at

542
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: cop and the IPCC. They're officially listed as a non

543
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: lobbying organization, even though their entire existence is to provide

544
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: cover for industry. So all the industry guys show up

545
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: there with IPEKA badges.

546
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: Nobody knows what that is, you know, And yeah.

547
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: So they they're able to go to, you know, all

548
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: of like the daily coordination meetings between different observer groups.

549
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: They can go into the negotiating rooms, they can you know,

550
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: they don't they can hang out in the hallway and

551
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: wait for delegates to come out and talk to them.

552
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: Like there's absolutely nothing stopping them from influencing things. And

553
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: I and you, I mean, it's like we we see

554
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: the effect of that every year. Just this morning, the

555
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: new draft text came out, and not only has the

556
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: stripped fossil fuel phase out from it, but they've added

557
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: overshoot twice, so like I don't know about that, yeah, yeah,

558
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: and oh but they've also given a nod to information

559
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: integrity in the same text, And I'm like, how, how

560
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: like how are these two things in the same space.

561
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: So well, just I just want to I'm gonna plug

562
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: episode four, which just came out this morning, where I

563
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: spoke with Freddy Otto and David Hoe, who had a

564
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: whole cont we have a big part of our conversation

565
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: was all about the science behind overshooting, the degree to

566
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: which we know if overshoot will actually work and if

567
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: we could actually yeah, if it will actually be feasible

568
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: but it's of course now the policy makers are like

569
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: or not, I don't know who it is, Like, the

570
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: industry connected policy makers are putting it into text, yeah,

571
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: act putting in like stuff that has no scientific evidence

572
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: that it will actually work, and.

573
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 4: They're adding it. I mean they're pushed.

574
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: A month before COPP there was a IPCC meeting in

575
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: Lima where there are debating how much like which types

576
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: of CDR to add carbon dioxide removal to add to

577
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: the next IPCC assessment. They're going to have a whole

578
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: chapter on carbon capture and storage.

579
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 4: You know.

580
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: One one researcher I talked to described it as like

581
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: these sort of science fiction ideas escaping the model and

582
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: getting into.

583
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: You know, into negotiating texts and policy, and it's it's frightening.

584
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: I was, I could.

585
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: I was like lurking in a lot of these like

586
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: weird little industry side groups to kind of see what

587
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: they were talking about, and there were a lot focused

588
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: on carbon dioxide removal, and in one of them they

589
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: talked about carbon dioxide removal and Article six, which is

590
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: like the part of the pair agreement that's set up

591
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: well is trying to like tighten up and better regulate

592
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: carbon markets, and there were ongoing debates about whether to

593
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: include carbon capture and carbon dioxide removal under that, and

594
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 1: they have now decided to. And they thought that, you know,

595
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: they had at least gotten this like science based target

596
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: for permanence of one hundred years, Like you have to

597
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: show that this carbon is going to stay put for

598
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: one hundred years, and a bunch of people showed up

599
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: at this year's cop arguing to make it thirty years.

600
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: So there was like, but there was a scientist in

601
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: one of these panels who said, obviously, from an environmental

602
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: perspective and a climate perspective, you know, a forestation and

603
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: reforestation are the preferred approaches to carbon storage and carbon removal,

604
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: but the markets don't like them.

605
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 3: Yes, but this is whole Yeah, so a challenging issue

606
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: because this is something I run into all the time.

607
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: There's all of these when it comes to climate solutions,

608
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: there's no silver bullet, but there's a lot of silver buckshop.

609
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: So immediately if anybody pitches anything as a silver bullet,

610
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: you know your radar should go up. Uh, that's not

611
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: the case. But all of these different solutions. We need

612
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: as many solutions as we can, so I think of

613
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: climate solutions as if you think of the atmosphere as

614
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: a swimming pool, and the level of water in the

615
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: pool is like the level of carbon in the atmosphere.

616
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: And you know, two hundred years ago we stuck a

617
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: giant hose in the pool. We turn the hose up

618
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: every year, so we have to turn the hose off,

619
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: but we can also make the drain bigger, and then

620
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 3: we also have to learn how to swim because our

621
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: toes don't touch the ground now for most of the pool.

622
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: So we need all these solutions. And none of these

623
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: solutions are inherently wrong or evil in and of themselves.

624
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: And I often see a lot of discussions sort of

625
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: pitching a given solution as evil or wrong. It's how

626
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: they're used or misused that make the difference. So, you know,

627
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: there's people I talk to a lot of people all

628
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: across the spectrum, and there's people, you know, doing direct

629
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: air capture and even planning how we could do carbon

630
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: capture and sequestration or things like that, who are fully

631
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: cognizant of the fact that we're talking about the last

632
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 3: few drops down the drain at this point are the

633
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: last few drops in the hose, and they're right. The

634
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: science says every bit of warming matters, every drop matters.

635
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 3: So if you develop a technology that, applied at the

636
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: appropriate time, can take one more drop out, that's great.

637
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: But what's happening is bad actors, Aman, This is exactly

638
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: what you know. All of that bad actors are taking

639
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: these solutions. They're taking everything from the voluntary carbon market

640
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: with nature to geologic storage to you know, you name it,

641
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: and they're using it as a fig leaf to say, oh,

642
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: I don't have to do anything about it because and

643
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: you know, I've even heard companies say, well, increase our

644
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: extraction of fossil fuels because we'll just do, you know,

645
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: carbon capture storage. I'm like, excuse me. We don't actually

646
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 3: have enough geologic storage areas the entire world to actually

647
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: cover just the carbon that you would be taking out.

648
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: So there's a problem because I feel like so much

649
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: of the discussion is so like it's it's very like

650
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: good and evil and if you espouse the solution, you're evil,

651
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 3: and if you don't, you're good. A lot of sort

652
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: of almost religious puritism in it. But the reality is

653
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: is it's what we do with these solutions and how

654
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: we use them or misuse them. That's really the key

655
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: discussion that I feel like is often not happening in

656
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: the decision making and policy and even the public circles,

657
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: you know, like on Blue Sky or something like that.

658
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 4: Totally totally oh sorry.

659
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 3: We're cutting we keep cutting you off.

660
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: You know.

661
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: No, I'm just gonna introject one little point here and

662
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: a day should go amy, which is just to say

663
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: that I think, you know, when we think about the

664
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 2: toolbox of solutions, like, obviously we need to encourage every

665
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: and all solution possible because we're in an all hands

666
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: on deck moment. But I also think there needs to

667
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: be a realistic framing to the degree to which what

668
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: actually can work at what's at the moment given the

669
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: technology and the time where we close our eyes, hold

670
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: our you know, hold our ears in just you know,

671
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: la la la la la, while we say no, we're

672
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: going to just we're just going to figure out you know,

673
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: carbon dioxide removal, and we're fine, We're we're way past

674
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: that moment. And so I think that's where we need

675
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 2: to make sure that everybody has to be you know,

676
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: we have to call bs on a people who are

677
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: leaning into technology that can't scale the way they're talking

678
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: about like you were talking about, Katherine, Go ahead, Amy, Yes.

679
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 4: I was just going to say that.

680
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: Actually I spoke with one researcher who is at this

681
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: AR seven meeting in Lima talking about the different technologies

682
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: and stuff, and they they described it really I think

683
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: in a helpful way, which is that you know, like

684
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: prior meetings, these technologies had always been discussed as like

685
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: necessary because the climate crisis is so urgent that we

686
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: want to make sure we have all of these technologies

687
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: available and discussed as like being particularly useful for hard

688
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: to abate industries and things like that, and that this

689
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: was the first meeting they had attended where people were

690
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: some people were very openly describing it as like we

691
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: need to be able to remove emissions here so that

692
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: we can continue emitting them there.

693
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 4: And it was like, no, no, that's not the way.

694
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

695
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: So that I want to ask you that the tough question,

696
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: or one of the tough questions, which is so is

697
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: is this this you know, this institutional system that is

698
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: the CUP, which is the climate regime, which has really

699
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: become captured by fossil fuel interests and is platforming fossil

700
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 2: fuel interests and their perspectives quite you know, clearly within

701
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: the meetings, I mean more and more, like, I think

702
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: it's worse this year than was last year than it

703
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: was the year before, and we weren't even a petro

704
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: state this year, right, So the question is can we

705
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: salvage the regime? Is it fixable or is there another

706
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 2: way that we should be thinking about addressing the climate

707
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: crisis at this point solve the world?

708
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: Fix it? My answer is yes to both.

709
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, same, I have yes.

710
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys are going to yes, Amy, I should

711
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: have known, Okay.

712
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, because there is incredible value just to bringing everybody

713
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: together to look each other in the faces. When you

714
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: are looking into the face of a small island state

715
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 3: who could lose their entire country due to unchecked climate change,

716
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: that has a much different emotional impact than when they

717
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 3: are a green circle on a map or an email

718
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: that somebody sent you. So I think of these cop

719
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: meetings as a global pot look where everybody shows up

720
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: and publicly puts what they're bringing on the table, and

721
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 3: it is very obvious who made the apple by hand

722
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 3: and who dragged a frozen chicken nugget out of the

723
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: back of the freezer that's been there for years. And

724
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 3: also who doesn't even show up to the potluck dinner,

725
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: So there is tremendous value in that. But COP is

726
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: way way overdue for a major reform. It has just

727
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: you know, the negotiations are one thing. Everybody else who's

728
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: not a negotiator getting together is a totally different thing.

729
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: In fact, I know they're splitting it between Turkey and

730
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: Australia next year. In my opinion, I would send the

731
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: negotiators to one of the place and I would send

732
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 3: the rest of the circus to the other place. That's

733
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 3: what I would do, because they are really two separate things.

734
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: And then also too really getting a handle on the

735
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 3: fossil fuel industry being the largest delegation there, that just

736
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: isn't right. But then I would say two, the idea

737
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 3: that only countries getting together to come to decisions that

738
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: must be unanimous, and expecting that to somehow fix the

739
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: whole crisis, it's not just naive, it's delusional. Anybody you

740
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 3: thought this would fix the whole crisis has no idea

741
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 3: anything works. I mean, I'm not even the political scientist, right,

742
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 3: so it's never been enough and That's why even in Paris,

743
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 3: the mayor of Paris was holding their own sort of

744
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: COP for all the mayors because a lot of cities

745
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 3: these days are bigger than our countries and we need

746
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: to have all other organizations brought in, whether it's universities,

747
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 3: whether it's businesses, whether it's organizations or even religious traditions,

748
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: all of those have to come in. And you know,

749
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: one of the recent announcements just today is that the

750
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 3: more and more countries and organizations are signing the Fossil

751
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: Fuel non Periferation Treaty. It is the brainchild of SUPPORTA. Berman,

752
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: and so Columbia and the Netherlands are going to hold

753
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 3: a non Periferation Treaty meeting, which I think will be

754
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: a tremendous step forward in a different direction. So that's

755
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 3: why my answer is, yes, yes, we need to reform

756
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: the COP process.

757
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 4: But we also need more.

758
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Amy, I was gonna mention that Columbia meeting too.

759
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really interesting.

760
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 4: And I would just say too that.

761
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, I mean, I think we all know

762
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: the big systemic reasons, but like I don't think Columbia

763
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: got anywhere near enough attention for the way it showed

764
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: up at this cop which was like the only country

765
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: where the inside people and the outside people were absolutely

766
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 1: on the same page, like they're just like very clear

767
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: fossil fuel phase out just transition, and like really were

768
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: the ones pushing that message very consistently. And I think

769
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: that like it actually kind of broke through in some

770
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: ways that didn't get picked up like in the media

771
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: or in any of the big conversations. And I think

772
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: that like actually them getting the Netherlands on board for this.

773
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask you you have insights on how

774
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: the insights on the Netherlands, because that was that's my

775
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: case is way back when.

776
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: So that's was a deal, Like they're that's you know,

777
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: Shell's home country, so like.

778
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: That's a really big deal.

779
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: And then they also said, hey, eighty kun trees that

780
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: signed on to fossil fuel phase out come to our

781
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: party in Columbia.

782
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 4: Next next year. So that's really interesting.

783
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: I talked to Kumi Naidu, who's running the nonproperation treaty now,

784
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: and he was saying in Zuppora too that like they

785
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: have modeled this after the landmine decommissioning treaties and that

786
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: in that case you know, it was only twenty countries

787
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: that actually signed on to that, but it created enough

788
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: like momentum and pressure to get the rest of the

789
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: world now. Of course, like fossil fuels and land mines

790
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: are very different things. No one is like I can't

791
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: get to work without my landmine, but like you, however,

792
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: it's an interesting strategy, so I despite, I think so yes,

793
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: but it's an interesting strategy, and I think we're starting

794
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: to see that, like, Okay, that could really bear fruit.

795
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: Another thing that came up, like on the ground there

796
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: was that there was there was there was like a

797
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 1: kind of an open letter from a bunch of different

798
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: society groups really saying like, hey, it's time to actually

799
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: organize around addressing this ridiculous consensus thing and like actually

800
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: changing some of the processes at cop and those kinds

801
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: of things. And then other people I talked to were saying,

802
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like the negotiations, sure, the like trade

803
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: show beyond them, like nobody needs it.

804
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, well I think we do need those opportunities,

805
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: but I don't think it has to be COPT. So

806
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: for example, I personally I've gone to more New York

807
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 3: Climate Weeks than COPS because that's where I feel it's

808
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: much more a democratic process because it's all sort of crowdsourced.

809
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: It does need to be a bit more organized, in

810
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 3: my opinion. But you know, climate weeks are springing up everywhere.

811
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 3: So my home city of Toronto has a Climate Week. Now,

812
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: this is the first year. London Climate Week has been

813
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: happening for a while. There's all these regional climate weeks.

814
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 3: Africa had a big Climate Week a year or two ago,

815
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 3: so that's where the discussions are happening, and they're much

816
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: more solution focused because they're more regionally focused.

817
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: I would just say, I mean, I agree with you, Katain,

818
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: but I also would I would highlight the fact that

819
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: the Climate week's the beauty of the Climate week, although

820
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: there is some paid to plainess there which I think

821
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: is problematic. But the climate weeks are also locally embedded

822
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: so that all of a sudden it really is for

823
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: the mayor's the regional leaders rather than this like everybody fly.

824
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say, the last time I

825
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: was at a cop I ended up at an event

826
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: where there were people from Brookings and people from a

827
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: whole bunch of other thing tanks from here in DC.

828
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 2: And I was like, I can't believe I flew across

829
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: the world to sit in a room so that we

830
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 2: could all present to one another. I mean, we could

831
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: have done this. I mean we could have done this

832
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: by all taking the metro. There's no reason to do that,

833
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: and that kind of the whole you know, three wing

834
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: circus part I think that has to go. I know

835
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 2: some of my colleagues are very upset with my making

836
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 2: that statement, but it's just like that could happen at

837
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: a regional level. That is much more valuable for decision

838
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: making at at the scale, and I you know, I'm

839
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: all for that. I mean, obviously I believe in taking

840
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: what we have in our scientific information and getting out there.

841
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 2: But I'm not sure that getting it out there, there's

842
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: nobody from the regime that's going to be like, oh,

843
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: I was at that panel with all those people from Washington,

844
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: d C. And now I'm going to change everything we're doing.

845
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: It would make a lot more sense. For like, we

846
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: just started Climate Week d C, which they unfortunately scheduled

847
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: it for a really bad time last year, but I'm

848
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: hoping they'll have it. I think maybe it'll take off.

849
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 2: It was right after you know, Trump made some interesting announcements,

850
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 2: so it was really oddly time. But you know, this

851
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: kind of a regional effort I think can really help

852
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: to build climate community in ways that could be much

853
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: more helpful.

854
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yes, I completely agree because that's where we

855
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: that's where we are today. Yeah, yeah, we need And

856
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 3: the thing is this COP was built as the implementation COP.

857
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 3: Well we need implementation at every scale and in fact

858
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 3: implementing and Italy and the C forty network make this

859
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 3: very powerful. They're the city networks. You know, Implementation of

860
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: the municipal scale is in many ways much easier than

861
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: at the national or federal scale because the scale of solutions,

862
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: the scale of decisions, the speed at which those decisions

863
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: can be made.

864
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: As much impacts too. Remember right, people are experiencing the

865
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: climate crisis in their communities, and it's varied, very varied

866
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: based on where you're based.

867
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: So absolutely exactly, and even with in the US, where

868
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 3: climate change is so polarized, one of my colleagues research

869
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 3: has shown that the closer we get, like the closer

870
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: we bring impacts to home, like you just said, the

871
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: less polarized they are, because we're talking about our shared

872
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 3: home and our shared neighborhood or our shared city or

873
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: town that we all went through the flood together. So

874
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 3: it's really like sub national action and engagement in communication

875
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: I think is almost like the secret I don't want

876
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 3: to call it the secret tool. I don't want secret wepons,

877
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 3: no weapons, secret sauce. Yeah there secrets that is not

878
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: really unlocked by a cop is starting to be organically

879
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 3: unlocked by these regional efforts. But more more deliberate focus

880
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: on that I think could really catalyze things and move

881
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: the needle forward faster.

882
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: I have.

883
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: So I have one more question, because I know we're

884
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: running out of time. Unless I didn't want to make

885
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 2: sure Amy, you didn't feel like I was cutting you off,

886
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: not okay, no, no, no to the last question is you

887
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: know is the big one? So what is what's your

888
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: visiting for the future? What do you think, what do

889
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: you think is possible? What do you hope for? And

890
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: what do you think is most realistic when we think

891
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: about both climate policy making but also where we are

892
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: in the climate crisis and where we need to go.

893
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: Just that.

894
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: Little bitty question, just.

895
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: Well, I I think that we are what we are

896
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: seeing now. When you know I live in Texas and

897
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,959
Speaker 3: I'm from Canada, where our carbon price, our target price

898
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 3: on carbon just got removed, and we're seeing the impacts.

899
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 3: I mean, Texas is actually the most vulnerable state in

900
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: the US to climate impacts, and Canada has seen the

901
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 3: massive wildfires in recent years like we've never seen before.

902
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 3: So all of the resistance that we're experiencing, the dismantling

903
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: of climate science and research and solutions and sharing of

904
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: information and all that, it reminds me of the you know,

905
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: the line rage, rage against the dying of the light,

906
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 3: rage against the dying of the fossil fuel powered light.

907
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: I feel like those who have built their power and

908
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: wealth on the history of fossil fuels in our society,

909
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: they understand that their days are numbered. They understand that

910
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 3: it is not going to be the fuel source of

911
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 3: our society over the next hundred years. And countries like

912
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: China are already light years ahead of the US in

913
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: making that clear. And so this is their last ditch

914
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: fight to put off that tipping point as long as

915
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: they possibly can, to make sure that the quarterly returns

916
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 3: are as high as possible for as long as possible,

917
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: before they take all their gains and go off to

918
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 3: their bunkers. And what that really means is we're getting

919
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 3: closer to winning, but it is darkest before the dawn,

920
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: and it is very very dark right now. I'm a

921
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 3: hopeful person, but that's because I practice hope like an

922
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: Olympic sport. I'm not an optimistic person. I expect the

923
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 3: worst and then I can always be pleasantly surprised if

924
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 3: it doesn't happen, or grimly validated if it does, which

925
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: is more the case these days. Lots of grim validation

926
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 3: these days. So the arc of justice, as they say,

927
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 3: really is bending in the right direction. But man, it

928
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: is a a brittal situation out there right now. And

929
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: what breaks my heart is that the science says that

930
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 3: every bit of additional warming we put in place has

931
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 3: an impact, and it will have an impact on the

932
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 3: people who've done the least a cause it that had

933
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: no say in that decision actually being made. And so

934
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: that is why doing everything we can to accelerate our

935
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: social tipping points is so important. And so that's why

936
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 3: full so go back. I spend so much of my

937
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: time as a scientist doing communication because the social science

938
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: says that that is one of the tipping points we need,

939
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: and I feel like that's the one where I can

940
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: help the most.

941
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: Such an apocalyptically optimistic perspective, Jess, for you all about that,

942
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: woo okay, so Amy, what have you got?

943
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: I would say, well, I think that, you know, to

944
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 1: Catherine's point, like there is I do feel like we're

945
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: seeing them fight so hard because they know that they

946
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: only had so much time left and they're going to

947
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: try to make as much money off of their assets

948
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: as they can before they can't anymore. Like of course

949
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: that's happening, you know, but it is to a certain

950
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: degree unstoppable. Like there's there's so much renewable energy penetration

951
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: in so many places. Even the IEA, which like you know,

952
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: historically was was not super optimistic about renewables, came out

953
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: with its report you know, this this week saying, yeah,

954
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: fossil fuel use is going to peak in I think

955
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: they said, oh god, I don't want to misquote it anyway,

956
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: the peak is coming soon coming up. And they looked at,

957
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: you know, how much renewables are growing, and I think like, actually,

958
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: one thing that was interesting about this cop was the

959
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: fact that the US not being there was a good thing.

960
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: You know, it cut back on some of the obstruction

961
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: that was happening.

962
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 4: I think that.

963
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: It probably cleared the path for some of these other

964
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: countries to get together and say, you know what, like

965
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: now you know, not only are we going to have

966
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: this meeting in Colombia in April, but I think it's

967
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: twenty nine countries now have said that they are going

968
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: to veto the cop presidency text unless they put fossil

969
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: fuel phase out back in. And we're talking like the UK, Australia,

970
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: these you know, like of course Global South countries as well,

971
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: but like some of the bigger fossil fuel countries to boot.

972
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: So you know, I think I actually committed to that.

973
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:35,959
Speaker 4: I don't, yes, they did.

974
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: I have a little theory about this, which is that

975
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: Australia's and this is totally because we have an Australia

976
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: reporter who gives me all the hot goss on Australian politics.

977
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: But Australia's environment minister was really hoping to get COP hosting.

978
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: He wanted to like, you know, kind of preside over

979
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: the negotiations and be more involved in all of that.

980
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: And their primary minister, you know, like didn't turn up

981
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: to cop kept telling the press they didn't want it,

982
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and so yeah, he thinks he's

983
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 1: like I kind of wonder if like this guy didn't

984
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: just do this as a little bit of a like

985
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 1: screw you to his boss back.

986
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that and all the coal industry and Australia.

987
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 2: So that's interesting.

988
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's pretty interesting.

989
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: The fact, I mean Netherlands co hosting a fossil fuel

990
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: phase out meeting with Columbia very interesting. Like, I think

991
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: there are starting to be countries that are getting on

992
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: board with this idea. The other thing that I feel like,

993
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: especially in the US, we're not looking at at all

994
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: is how big of a deal it would be if

995
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: the UK were to actually follow through on phasing out

996
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: north Sea oil, because that would they would be the first,

997
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: like developed fossil fuel based economy to get off of

998
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 1: fossil fuels.

999
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 4: People always say, what about Norway.

1000
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: Norway's suckling at the teat of the fossil fuel funding trust.

1001
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, they're still you know, very dependent on

1002
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: on that wealth fund and in a way that that

1003
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 1: the UA would not be, which is why I think

1004
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: again you're seeing the fossil fuel they are spending so

1005
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: much money trying to take down renewables in the UK

1006
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: right now.

1007
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 4: They're even putting.

1008
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: Like I have a couple of reporters there there are

1009
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 1: like they're like putting up fake candidates in little community

1010
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: elections that they know won't win just to get like

1011
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: anti renewables talking points out there.

1012
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 2: Taking a page of playbook over here is what they're doing, right, I.

1013
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 4: Mean, I know, I know.

1014
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: Anyway, Yeah, I'm like watching that as like a potentially

1015
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: quite like because to me, I actually feel like as

1016
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: effective as the science denial was, the economic argument against

1017
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: action I think has been much more entrenched and like

1018
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 1: more success ful in a way and is much harder

1019
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: to push back on. So for a very developed, very

1020
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: fossil fuel tied country to decouple from fossil fuels as

1021
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: their economic engine would be a huge, huge moment, and

1022
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: we could see it in the not so distant future.

1023
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 4: So that's how helping.

1024
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very hopeful. Well that I feel like we

1025
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: should we should wrap up on that to just say,

1026
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, it's very likely

1027
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 2: that the worst is still in front of us as

1028
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 2: the death now continues for the fossil fuel interest. But

1029
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 2: I think that there are these amazing glimmers of hope

1030
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: and opportunities for us all to do more, and to

1031
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 2: do it in a strategic way that hopefully pushes back

1032
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: against some of this, including the misinformation. So I applaud

1033
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 2: all of your efforts and all the work you both

1034
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 2: are doing with your climate communication, because it's even more

1035
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: important now than I think it was, you know, five

1036
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 2: ten years ago. And thank you so much for coming

1037
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: on the cop Out podcast, and I look forward to

1038
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: continuing our conversation in the future. Likewise, maybe in Colombia. Yeah, Oh,

1039
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 2: that'd be fun.

1040
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I'm nearby, so it's easy. I'm like, I'm.

1041
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 2: Looking at Columbia right now.

1042
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 4: I can see it from my window. No, not really,

1043
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 4: the col