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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome stuff.

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Speaker 3: I never told you production I heart radio. So this

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Speaker 3: classic has actually been on my list to bring back

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Speaker 3: for a while, but after the recent Monday mini that

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Speaker 3: you did Samantha on work Spouses, it's like, yeah, we

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Speaker 3: should bring this one back. It's about emotional affairs and

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Speaker 3: emotional cheating, which Kristen and Caroline did. I at the

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Speaker 3: time had never heard of it, but when I listened

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Speaker 3: to it it learned about it, I was like, yes,

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Speaker 3: I know what that is. You know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: Like I didn't have kind of the terminology. I hadn't

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Speaker 3: really thought about it.

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Speaker 2: And we.

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Speaker 3: Have so many ideas listeners, and a lot of them

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Speaker 3: we get from you. But one that I've mentioned and

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Speaker 3: has been put off and put off and delayed and

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Speaker 3: delayed is on divorce. And I have actually heard from

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Speaker 3: some of you. So thank you for sharing your story

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Speaker 3: about how complicated divorce can be just legally, like not

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Speaker 3: even the emotional part, but just legally getting your affairs

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Speaker 3: in order, your finances, all of that stuff. And the

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Speaker 3: frustrating thing is that I did not know is that

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Speaker 3: depending on the state, it varies pretty wildly. Here in

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Speaker 3: the ums. Yeah, so I want to We are going

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Speaker 3: to do it. It is in our folder. I already

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Speaker 3: have the documents. I don't think it'll happen in March,

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Speaker 3: but it will happen.

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Speaker 1: I'm really I.

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Speaker 3: Think it's just going to be a lot of a

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Speaker 3: lot of work to dig into in different states. But

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Speaker 3: I do want to do it. It is going to happen.

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Speaker 3: But I thought this would be a good since we

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Speaker 3: did that episode on work spouses and then in preparation

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Speaker 3: for the upcoming episode on divorce, a good one to

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Speaker 3: bring back, So please enjoy this classic episode.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 4: Works dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 4: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about

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Speaker 4: emotional cheating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically when that work spouse we talked about last time,

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Speaker 1: maybe things go a little too far.

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Speaker 4: Or you've got a friend that you start confiding in

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Speaker 4: more and more and more, and suddenly that friends starts

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Speaker 4: looking more and more attractive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're not like getting naked together, but you're

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Speaker 1: just having these long, deep conversations and really connecting and

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Speaker 1: confiding and bonding.

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Speaker 2: And slowly abandoning your own relationship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this is such a rich topic to

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Speaker 4: talk about because we have a lot more emotional cheating

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Speaker 4: capabilities than we used to you thanks to social media,

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Speaker 4: which we'll get into, but also because it's one of

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Speaker 4: those areas in long term relationships where you have to

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Speaker 4: be so honest with yourself because it's easy to make

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Speaker 4: excuses to yourself or to your partner, to whomever that

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Speaker 4: Oh no, this isn't problematic at all, because it's not

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Speaker 4: like we're kissing, we aren't having sex, we're just talking

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Speaker 4: a lot.

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Speaker 2: We're just like going to lunch every day. I'm just

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Speaker 2: kind of in love with her. Oh no, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of self preservation delusion

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Speaker 1: that goes on during a lot of emotional affairs that

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Speaker 1: keeps them going well.

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Speaker 4: And this is also one of those things that comes

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Speaker 4: up all the time in terms of gender and cheating,

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Speaker 4: the whole assumption that men will be more jealous of

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Speaker 4: physical cheating, of someone having sex with another person, whereas

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Speaker 4: women are more jealous of emotional affairs.

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Speaker 2: And we'll get into that some, but let's go ahead

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Speaker 2: and put it out there.

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Speaker 4: Do you are you familiar with emotional affairs. Do you

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Speaker 4: know anyone who has had an emotional affair?

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Speaker 1: A friend of mine, a very good friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: was in the danger zone a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: her high school. She's married kids, she's been married to

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Speaker 1: the same guy for a long time, been with him

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Speaker 1: for a long time since high school, and a previous

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Speaker 1: high school boyfriend resurfaced having some marriage trouble. He reaches

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Speaker 1: out to her. They start up like a Facebook back

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Speaker 1: and forth side note and we will get more into

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Speaker 1: this in a little bit, but Facebook is cited in

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Speaker 1: a massive number of divorces. So anyway, I knew that

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Speaker 1: I had on my podcasting research in my brain as

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Speaker 1: she's telling me about this, and you know, she's doing

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Speaker 1: the total stereotype, like everything's fine, We're just talking all

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Speaker 1: the time. This woman with her children, with her full

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Speaker 1: time job. She was literally like giving up sleep to

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Speaker 1: get into these long drawn out Facebook, email, text conversations,

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Speaker 1: not to mention, like on the phone conversations, not only

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Speaker 1: like counseling him as he was going through this rough

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Speaker 1: patch in his marriage, but like confiding in him about

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. And I was like, you've got it.

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Speaker 1: You've got to stop, Like, I know that you're really

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Speaker 1: happy to be back in touch with someone from your past.

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Speaker 1: He was a nice guy back when we knew him.

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Speaker 1: That was a long time ago. You guys are both married,

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Speaker 1: and you you are confiding really personal things in him

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't need to know, frankly, And she basically

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Speaker 1: said that, well, just you know, it feels good to

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Speaker 1: talk to someone aside from my husband about this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I mean if I could have shown up at

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Speaker 1: her house with like those airplane direction wants and be

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Speaker 1: like no, stop, go the other way, I would have

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Speaker 1: and things eventually cooled down. Luckily, she and her husband

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Speaker 1: are great and fine and everything's fine. The other guy, uh,

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Speaker 1: did end up having an actual physical affair with someone else,

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Speaker 1: leaving his wife and now he's with a woman that

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Speaker 1: he had an affair with.

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Speaker 2: Dangerous own city totally.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that dangerous ledge of like, once you

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Speaker 1: start forming that intimate bond with someone else and add

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Speaker 1: the excitement of someone new, relatively, that's a recipe for disaster.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean anecdotally, the emotional cheating that I've

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Speaker 4: witnessed tends to follow a very similar pattern of reconnecting

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Speaker 4: with an ex, whether you sought them out because they're

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Speaker 4: troubled waters in your own relationship, or it just happens

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Speaker 4: that you two ran into each other, whether offline or online.

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Speaker 4: And there's something about those particular kinds of reconnections with

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Speaker 4: an X that get so dangerous so fast, because there

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Speaker 4: is that sense of a false sense of intimacy that

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Speaker 4: can arise, where it's like, oh, I forgot I could

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Speaker 4: talk to you like I couldn't talk to anybody else.

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Speaker 2: And because as you're telling me this about your friend.

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Speaker 4: And how good it felt for her to say some

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Speaker 4: of those things to someone other than her husband, the

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Speaker 4: first thing I think is, well, where are your friends

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Speaker 4: who you didn't.

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Speaker 2: Date where things couldn't get complicated?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, she was talking to you.

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Speaker 4: But obviously there's that satisfaction that we derive from the

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Speaker 4: attention that exes can give us. Not to say that

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Speaker 4: emotional cheating only happens between exes, but I'm just slam.

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Speaker 2: I've seen it happen a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean that's not to say that people

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Speaker 1: can never be friends with their exes. Obviously, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously people can, but that's that's just dangerous water. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, especially it all seems to hinge on motivation, where

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Speaker 4: it's like if you're suddenly talking to your X again

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Speaker 4: and things just so happen to be not so healthy at.

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Speaker 2: Home might be a red flag. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Practice and self awareness, yeah, check.

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Speaker 2: In with yourself.

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Speaker 4: So what are the hallmarks then, of emotional affairs versus

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Speaker 4: just having a close friendship, Because, like you said, it

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Speaker 4: is totally possible to be friends with your exes. If

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Speaker 4: you are straight, you should be able to have opposite

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Speaker 4: sex friendships, et cetera. But where does that line start

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Speaker 4: to get blurry?

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Speaker 1: Well? All right, so here are some things that hopefully

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Speaker 1: should serve as an excellent blowing up of any denial

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Speaker 1: you're in. So you avoid telling your significt and other

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Speaker 1: about the person and your interactions, which that sort of

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Speaker 1: secrecy automatically makes you, guys a unit. It automatically makes

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Speaker 1: things a little more exciting. Do you find yourself getting

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Speaker 1: dressed up for that person, putting on a little more makeup,

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Speaker 1: doing your hair a little bit nicer? Do you find

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Speaker 1: yourself telling this other person about your day, your frustrations,

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Speaker 1: your hopes and dreams, your fears and anger, whatever, Rather

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Speaker 1: than telling your significant other. And that's an important one

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Speaker 1: because a lot of psychologists and researchers that we read

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Speaker 1: their stuff about this. We're saying that when you share

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Speaker 1: those deep thoughts and fears and et cetera, that breeds

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Speaker 1: this intimacy that can deepen those bonds and can lead you,

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Speaker 1: like my friend, to start feeling like, perhaps this person

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Speaker 1: just gets you more than your significant other does.

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Speaker 4: And that would probably open the door to maybe confiding

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Speaker 4: in that person about your own relationship to satisfaction and

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Speaker 4: then another moment to check yourself before you wreck yourself

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Speaker 4: or your relationship. You start comparing that person to your

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Speaker 4: significant other, so essentially like you're building an idealized version

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Speaker 4: of whoever this alleged friend is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and because you're already in like total delusion land,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to only see the pros of someone rather

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Speaker 1: than the cons as well. Do you find yourself thinking

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Speaker 1: obsessively about the person? And if you're like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course, like he's funny and like, you

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Speaker 1: know whatever, do you think obsessively about your friends?

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Speaker 2: Here in Carolina? I think about you all.

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Speaker 1: The time, because I guarantee you, my friend who was

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Speaker 1: going through all that was not sitting around her house

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Speaker 1: like obsessively thinking about when the next email for me

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Speaker 1: was going to come in, because frankly, I don't email

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Speaker 1: that often anyway. And the whole thing of like, are

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Speaker 1: you increasingly finding more justification for your behavior or for

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Speaker 1: continuing the relationship when you start feeling really defensive or

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Speaker 1: entitled to this interaction, that's probably a bit of a

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Speaker 1: red flag as well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, to pay attention to your own relationship either if

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Speaker 4: you need to get out of it or get it

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Speaker 4: working again and.

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Speaker 1: Get it together.

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Speaker 2: Get it together. People.

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Speaker 4: On the flip side of that, if you are with

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Speaker 4: someone that you suspect might be engaged in this kind

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Speaker 4: of emotional cheating, what are what are the kinds of

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Speaker 4: things that you should pay attention to and kind of

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Speaker 4: validate for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Well, one thing to pay attention to is are you

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Speaker 1: starting to feel crazy? And I don't, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: say that sounds really flip, but like, are you starting

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Speaker 1: to feel as though something is just off and something

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Speaker 1: feels wrong. Maybe your spouse your significant others acting a

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Speaker 1: little differently and telling you nothing's wrong. That's called gaslighting.

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Speaker 1: Your gut doesn't lie, and so even if you start

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Speaker 1: to feel like something's off in your interaction, maybe ask

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Speaker 1: ask what's up. And related to that is that you

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Speaker 1: sense your partner isn't himself around you. Maybe he or

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Speaker 1: she is getting something else from this person that he's

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Speaker 1: having an emotional affair with, and he can be more

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Speaker 1: playful with that person or more silly or more serious

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that he feels, for whatever reason, that

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Speaker 1: he's not getting with you. And then like, have you

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Speaker 1: ever been in the situation And this could totally be

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Speaker 1: innocent where you're like, well, how is your day, honey,

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Speaker 1: and the person's like, ugh, I mean I already told

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Speaker 1: Karen all about it.

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Speaker 2: You're like Karen.

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Speaker 1: You're like, Karen, are you telling Karen all about your day?

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Speaker 1: I want to hear about your day. I'm your person.

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Speaker 4: Also rudest response, how's your day? Well, you know what

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Speaker 4: I already told Karen, So I'm.

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Speaker 1: Sick of talking about it. Karen gets me, just talk

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Speaker 1: to Karen. But it's that idea of like, oh, you

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Speaker 1: already told someone all about your frustrations and whatever you're

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Speaker 1: you're not confiding in me as much. And another big

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Speaker 1: thing is sex feeling detached. Diane Gerhardt who's a professor

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Speaker 1: of marriage and family therapy at California State University, told

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Speaker 1: Red Book magazine in April of twenty fifteen that as

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Speaker 1: the intensity of the emotional connection with this other person builds,

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Speaker 1: it detracts from the emotional connection in your own marriage,

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Speaker 1: and that can't help but affect what goes on physically

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Speaker 1: and emotionally between you two.

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Speaker 4: So there is a physical element to emotional cheating, but

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Speaker 4: it's with your person and not this person who you

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Speaker 4: are becoming attached to. And if you start noticing that,

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Speaker 4: let's say your person keeps bringing up Karen comparing, you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of in a way of comparing everything you do

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Speaker 4: to what Karen does better.

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Speaker 2: You know, like you know, Karen loves.

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Speaker 1: Uh, just she loves hot dogs.

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Speaker 2: Karen loves hot dogs. She can eat so many of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's she's basically like a competitive food eater.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, red Flag.

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Speaker 4: If you ever, if your spouse ever talks about a

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Speaker 4: coworker's eating.

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Speaker 2: Habits, you get to that therapist days up.

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Speaker 4: No what on a serious note, I mean, it's those

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Speaker 4: kinds of things of you know, person makes a joke

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Speaker 4: and maybe you don't laugh, and then your person's like, well,

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Speaker 4: Karen thinks I'm funny.

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Speaker 1: God, you know what, Karen, you can just well.

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Speaker 2: Maybe Karen doesn't know, but this is going on. Maybe

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Speaker 2: Karen's just like politely laughing.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Maybe he's obsessed with Karen.

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Speaker 2: Maybe Karen's oblivious.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we need to warn Karen.

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Speaker 2: We got to talk to Karen.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, I'm sorry, Karen. I didn't mean to judge you,

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Speaker 1: but so one of my favorite resources in the world is,

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Speaker 1: of course a magazine. Of course, if you know me,

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Speaker 1: you know it's Sandwiches Cory Giese an oh magazine, and

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Speaker 1: Gail Saltz, who's a therapist, was writing a column about

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Speaker 1: the danger zone that can prompt an emotional affair or

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Speaker 1: kind of push you over that edge, and three sort

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Speaker 1: of dangerous dangerous activities she lists are flirting with other

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Speaker 1: people because you can you can get kind of hooked

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Speaker 1: on that that high of like the attention you get

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Speaker 1: when you're flirting.

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Speaker 2: Unless that's part of like you and your your person's rag.

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Speaker 1: No, that's good. That's good if like you and your

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Speaker 1: person are flirting.

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Speaker 4: Well no, I'm saying, like, if if you and your

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Speaker 4: person are into flirting with other people.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, but then that that requires communication. And the

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Speaker 1: whole thing with emotional infidelity is that you're hiding it exactly.

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Speaker 1: So if you are flot with others in an intoxicating,

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Speaker 1: hidden secret fashion, stop it. Two innocently spending time alone

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Speaker 1: with old lovers that's that whole denial thing, and three

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Speaker 1: hanging out with emotional cheaters who kind of normalize that behavior.

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Speaker 1: This is the same thing Kristin and I have talked

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Speaker 1: about before when it comes to like kids in smoking,

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Speaker 1: or like sexual activity from a young age or whatever,

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Speaker 1: Like if all your friends are doing it, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're still not sure, but if everybody around you

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Speaker 1: is doing it, it seems more normal and acceptable. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Gym's getting away with it. Maybe Karen and I can

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Speaker 1: go sneak off and exchange text messages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, side by side.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean in middle school, all my friends were

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Speaker 4: emotionally cheating left and right.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't resist. And there's that avoidance factor too, Like

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Speaker 2: you said.

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Speaker 4: I mean, communication and a I feel like is the

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Speaker 4: answer to every relationship problem. You're either not doing it

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Speaker 4: or not doing it effectively. If you are avoiding talking

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Speaker 4: about your issues and things that you might feel are

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Speaker 4: lacking in your relationship. That can definitely backslide into finding

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Speaker 4: someone who can be your sounding board.

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Speaker 1: It's hitting those rough patches in your own marriage. And

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Speaker 1: you sort of touched on this earlier in the episode

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Speaker 1: about you know you're hitting a rough patch. Maybe you're

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Speaker 1: feeling lonely or unfulfilled somehow, maybe you're just depressed, and

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Speaker 1: assume that this is just how marriage is. That there's

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Speaker 1: not good communication and the other person gets you less

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Speaker 1: and less, and so rather than communicating with your person

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Speaker 1: you're sick nificant other, you seek that fulfillment and excitement elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that Gail Saltz wrote inn O

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Speaker 1: magazine that she's actually seeing more emotional infidelity these days.

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Speaker 1: A because she says, we're so used to being exposed

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Speaker 1: to sexually suggestive material quote that there's no longer an

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Speaker 1: obvious verbal or physical line we think we're crossing. So

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Speaker 1: maybe that's that dangerous flirtation of like, stop stop flirting

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Speaker 1: with other people. But B she says, we are connected

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Speaker 1: with others more than ever before thanks to technology and

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Speaker 1: social media, so it's entirely possible that you might have

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Speaker 1: some sort of roster of ex'es, or just like people

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Speaker 1: that you're kind of interested in on Facebook or Twitter

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Speaker 1: or whatever that you wouldn't necessarily be keeping in mind

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Speaker 1: if you weren't on social media.

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Speaker 4: And it's become so common that researchers call it remote infidelity. Hello,

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Speaker 4: here's a statistic that might surprise. It seemed awfull high

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Speaker 4: to me. A Wired magazine reported that as many as

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Speaker 4: forty two percent of Tender users aren't single. Now, granted,

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Speaker 4: that would technically include me. For an evening when I

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Speaker 4: was out with friends, one of whom was single, you know,

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Speaker 4: and so we all got on Tender, like in solidarity,

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Speaker 4: and it was fun for an evening. And then I

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Speaker 4: realized that my now husband was also on Tender, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, no, we cannot do this. He

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Speaker 4: was he got on Tendered that night. I should say

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Speaker 4: I didn't like find him on tender.

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Speaker 1: Oh lore, but I bet that happens, oh totally.

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Speaker 4: Oh and the whole thing too of online dating relationships

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Speaker 4: that start and then you go on some dates and

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Speaker 4: you go on to Okay, Cupid or Tender to shut

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Speaker 4: down your account, and then see that they're still active

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Speaker 4: and you're like, what's up with this, Come on now,

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Speaker 4: But Facebook seems to be really the the playground of

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Speaker 4: remote infidelity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because Facebook is supposedly so innocent, like, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, here's like Johnny from middle school. Here's Johnny,

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Speaker 1: and like this is fine, right, I'm just connecting with

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Speaker 1: old classmates because oh there's Karen and Jim and Johnny.

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Speaker 1: This cast of character thinks apparently they're all like nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifties Bobby socks ers or something. But you know Facebook,

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Speaker 1: like your mom's on Facebook, your grandmother's on Facebook. What's

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Speaker 1: the harm?

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Speaker 4: Well, and how often does Facebook probably serve up those

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Speaker 4: you might know?

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Speaker 1: Oh god, I wonder how many of those are my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend's ex girlfriends, because my boyfriend does get like you

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Speaker 1: should be friends with and it's like an ex of

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Speaker 1: mine and I feel the need to apologize, even though

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Speaker 1: it's not my fault. It's Facebook stupid algorithm.

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Speaker 2: But thanks Facebook.

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Speaker 1: So Facebook normalizes and sets the expectation that you're going

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Speaker 1: to keep in touch with people from your past, and

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Speaker 1: that you're going to connect with acquaintances. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: there's someone who's caught your eye in the office or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But it's totally normal. To be Facebook friends, right when.

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Speaker 4: In fact, what you might be doing is setting up

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Speaker 4: a backburner so that if things turn south, or if

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Speaker 4: you you know, if you are just kind of dissatisfied,

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Speaker 4: you feel like your relationship is in a slump and

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Speaker 4: your eye starts wandering, you might just innocently enough kind

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Speaker 4: of reconnect with some people on social media and have

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Speaker 4: the people on the back burner so that you can

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Speaker 4: you can leap straight from your old relationship that's going

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Speaker 4: down into flames into at least someone else's bed.

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Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I have been a back burner.

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Speaker 1: I years ago now, there was this guy that I

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Speaker 1: was really interested in, and we flirted all the time,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about hanging out, but like it never happened,

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Speaker 1: and it was like, why isn't he asking me out?

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Speaker 1: Like we're both clearly interested in each other, And I

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Speaker 1: had like broached the subject of hanging out and kind

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Speaker 1: of never picked up on it. But I still was

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Speaker 1: like getting heavily flirted with, so like all this cognitive

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Speaker 1: dissonance going on in my head. And we finally hung

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Speaker 1: out and he you know, uh, we were actually playing

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Speaker 1: scrabble and he at the end of the night, he

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Speaker 1: like dashed right, he like ran basically he had to

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Speaker 1: leave really soon. I was like, all right, ended up

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Speaker 1: seeing him at a Braves game, a baseball game, with

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Speaker 1: not only a woman, but a baby.

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Speaker 2: My jaja dropped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I was like, oh, well, that could

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Speaker 1: explain why he was so weird about like why it

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Speaker 1: took so long for us to a go on a date,

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Speaker 1: but b why he madly dashed out so fast at

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Speaker 1: the end of the night.

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Speaker 2: He never disclosed that he had a baby.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't even know if it's I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the situation was, but no, he didn't disclose any

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Speaker 1: of that, and like, clearly it was not his sister.

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Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: this woman was clearly not like, Oh, I'm in town

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Speaker 1: with my sister. And months and months and months later,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm dating someone else. I'm happy, it's everything's great.

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Speaker 1: And I get a Facebook message from dude and he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: how's it going. Uh, it looks like you're, you know,

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Speaker 1: having a great time and just hope you're still kicking

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Speaker 1: ass and blah blah blah blah blah. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: I blocked that guy so fast, like get get out

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Speaker 1: of here. And I was telling dud roommate about it,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, oh yeah, that guy's checking to see

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Speaker 1: if you're still on the roster. And so I'm pretty sure,

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Speaker 1: like I was totally a back burner because what I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming is that he was so weird because he was

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Speaker 1: in a serious relationship, potentially with a child. I was

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Speaker 1: not privy to any of that information, but he made

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Speaker 1: sure to remain in touch on Facebook until I realized

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Speaker 1: what terrible things were happening. And it's interesting these researchers

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Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen from the University of Indiana found that

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Speaker 1: men tend to have about twice as many backburners on

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Speaker 1: Facebook as women do, but it's still a widely practiced

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Speaker 1: phenomenon among men and women well.

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Speaker 4: And that study also cited a separate survey from one

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Speaker 4: Poll which found nearly half of all women keep in touch.

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Speaker 2: With a quote unquote backup husband. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, so we have like our work wife, our

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Speaker 4: backup husband.

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Speaker 2: We just got people all over the place.

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Speaker 4: And on average, respondents in relationships said that they had

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Speaker 4: romantic or sexual conversations with two people besides their current partner.

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Speaker 1: I how do you? I I don't have the mental

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Speaker 1: energy to like a even do that. But be like,

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Speaker 1: don't you want to address the problems in your relationship?

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Speaker 2: No, because that is harder.

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Speaker 4: That takes speaking words, whereas typing words is.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have so much more hutspah, yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And part of this is related to conversations we've had

436
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Speaker 1: and lots of articles we've read about how supposedly online

437
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Speaker 1: dating is ruining dating and relationships for everyone all the

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Speaker 1: time forever. It's not yeah, well yeah, But the theory

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Speaker 1: is that now dating is like the wild West, and

440
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: you have so many options available to you that you

441
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: never have to settle because there's always fifty more people

442
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: in line on tender okaycubit or whatever that if you're

443
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 1: fed up with someone, rather than working on it, you

444
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: could easily just find the next handsome woman or man

445
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: on an online dating site.

446
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 4: But I wonder if people would be discouraged from doing

447
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: that if they knew how, you know, other, how widespread

448
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 4: that is.

449
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

450
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 4: It's like you're not special for having a roster of

451
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: back burners, because, for all you know, your back burner

452
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: considers you a back burner, and that's not sexy.

453
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: No, that is not sexy. But the whole availability of

454
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: options thing is a factor that researchers and psychologists site

455
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: in terms of these emotional infidelity issues and even sexual infidelities,

456
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: So not just emotional stuff, but affairs in general, that

457
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: if you perceive there to be this huge network of

458
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: available people, you are more likely, if you're already predisposed,

459
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: whether it's because of relationship problems or whatever, you're more

460
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: likely to partake well.

461
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 4: And oh, complicating matters too is how we tend to

462
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: curate our social media presences. So we're showing how fabulous

463
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 4: our life is, how interesting we are, and so that

464
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 4: probably adds to the idealizing aspect of a lot of

465
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 4: this emotional cheating too, because it's like.

466
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 2: Oh, my god, look at her. She's on a boat.

467
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 4: Then she's eating she's eating so many well plated meals,

468
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 4: and there's a parade that she went to. What a

469
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 4: cultured gem I forgot about?

470
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Karen, Karen and her parades. My god.

471
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 4: Well, moving aside how technology facilitates this, we need to

472
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 4: unpeel some of the psychological layers that keep us going

473
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 4: back to these kinds of dangerous relationships.

474
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: So we've taken away all of your excuses and your

475
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: deniability about like, oh, we're just friends. Know better now, Karen, Karen, Jim.

476
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: We're looking at Johnny, Johnny, Susan. So despite knowing all

477
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: of this stuff, it can be hard if you're wrapped

478
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: up in it, to stop, to just stop, even if

479
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: you're like I am threatening my marriage. This is a

480
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: bad idea someone could find out. But it just feels

481
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: so good. What why are people not stopping? It is

482
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: so addictive?

483
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 4: And the thing is, as Athena Stike over at psych

484
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 4: Central wrote about in twenty twelve.

485
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: It's less about how special.

486
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 4: This other person is and more about the neurochemicals that

487
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 4: reward us in communicating with that person.

488
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because we already talked earlier about how

489
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 1: you know. Oh, it just it just feels good and

490
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: it's secretive and it's exciting, especially if you're understimulated, if

491
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: you feel understimulated in your own relationship. And Stike cites

492
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: Craig Nacan who wrote The Addictive Personality, Understanding the Addictive

493
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: Process and Compulsive Behavior, and he says that addiction is

494
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: quote a pathological love and trust relationship with an object, person,

495
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: or event. It's the out of control and aimless searching

496
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: for wholeness, happiness, and peace through a relationship with an

497
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: object or event. And clearly that can apply to when

498
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: you're filling that gaping emotional whole with alcohol, when you

499
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: are abusing drugs, when you're shopping obsessively, but that can

500
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: also apply to all of those happy chemicals flooding your

501
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: brain when you're having a secret emotional affair.

502
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 4: So what Nakean says is that we derive pleasure from

503
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 4: numbing the pain, shame, or guilt because we've distanced ourselves

504
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 4: from taking responsibility for issues happening in our relationships that

505
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: have led us to this point. Because, after all, irl

506
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: relationships that we care about carry the risk of pain

507
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 4: and failure and have ups and downs. Everybody goes through

508
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 4: rough patches. But if a person chooses to stray from

509
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 4: their relationship, are there predictable differences in whether men and

510
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 4: women are going to get physical with someone else or

511
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 4: get more emotional.

512
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: Well, so the stereotype is that women are going to

513
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: have the emotional affairs, but they're also going to be

514
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: more upset if their partner has an emotional affair, whereas

515
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: men are going to get physical and they're also angrier

516
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: when their partner has a physical sexual affair with someone else.

517
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: And this has been looked at up, down, and sideways

518
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: according to gender sexuality, sexual identity, gender identity, all of

519
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: these different factors. And it's not that actual studies haven't

520
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: supported the assertion that men, you know, hate sexual affairs

521
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: more and women hate emotional affairs, but there's a lot

522
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: of disagreement over why that particular stereotype might be the

523
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: case for some people. So there was this two thousand

524
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: and two article from the American Psychological Association's Monitor magazine

525
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: that reads, to me anyway, like the most boring, hilarious

526
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: academic catfight, because it pits evolutionary biology theorists against people

527
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: who are like, can we leave off with the cave

528
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: men and women who were fighting with each other in

529
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: the caves and just deal with the emotional and neurochemical

530
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: things that are going on? So tell me more. Well. So,

531
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: the evo bio explanation for why a man might be

532
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: more upset about physical cheating and a woman might be

533
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: more upset about emotional cheating is that they argue, we

534
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: have evolved with special sensitivities to the type of infidelity

535
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: that threatens us most so in this theory, men are

536
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 1: more concerned about sexual infidelity because of the risk of

537
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: inadvertently raising another man's child paternity uncertainty exactly, whereas women,

538
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: they say, are more concerned about emotional infidelity because of

539
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: the threat of losing their mate's support in raising those children.

540
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: And so they see the malemate's emotional engagement with another

541
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: woman as a sign that he's about to pack those

542
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: caveman's suitcases and head out of the cave to somebody

543
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: else's cave. It's not a euphemism, and that triggers jealousy.

544
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: But there's also an interesting dynamic when it comes to

545
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: what men and women, and we're talking in of course,

546
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: binary and heteronormative terms here when we are discussing these

547
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: cave people, there's some interesting dynamics about assumptions that men

548
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: and women are making about each other. Researchers found that

549
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: men assume that emotional infidelity is happening in conjunction with

550
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: sexual infidelity. They just assume they're happening together because and

551
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: this is in very stereotypical broadbrush terms, But men are

552
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: more likely to believe that women are not going to

553
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: get sexually involved with someone they're not emotionally connecting with,

554
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: whereas women are more likely to assume that men are

555
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: just having a sexual affair that doesn't necessarily involve emotions.

556
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: So that's what the evolutionary biologists claim. Yes, But then

557
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 4: of course we have these other researchers who take a

558
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: look at the methodology and say, okay, these are all

559
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 4: based on forced choice surveys, where it's.

560
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: Like, if pretend that someone's shooting on you, would you rather?

561
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: And they say that that produces false results and that

562
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 4: it also glosses over individual circumstances. Clearly, like you said,

563
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 4: I mean, it's talking in very broad brush terms.

564
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: There is no nuance to that whatsoever.

565
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 4: And it also claims that sex differences vanish when you

566
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 4: remove the need to pick one or the other and

567
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 4: have participants focus on a separate task while being asked

568
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 4: the question.

569
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: So you're kind of like distracting your brain.

570
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 1: In an effort to what probably like get that gut response, yes,

571
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: of like what makes you feel terrible inside?

572
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: Fold these clothes? Now tell me your thoughts on affairs?

573
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: I hate laundry. Actually I love laundry. But they found

574
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: that when you are like waving a shiny set of

575
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: keys in front of somebody as you ask them the

576
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: question everyone, man, woman, straight, gay, bisexual, whoever, everybody's more

577
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: upset about sexual infidelity when you just don't stop to

578
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: think about it.

579
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 2: I buy that.

580
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: I totally buy that too, because it almost takes a

581
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: minute longer. If you're speaking in gut terms, it almost

582
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: takes a minute longer to process, like, wait, you have

583
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: deep feelings for someone, versus like, oh, you were naked together.

584
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, like that took no time at all, whereas yeah,

585
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 4: this emotional relationship you would imagine as like a slow build. Well,

586
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 4: in speaking of feelings, this jives with the results of

587
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 4: a study from two thousand and four in Personality and

588
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: Social Psychology Bulletin, which found that sexual infidelity is more

589
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 4: associated with anger and blame, whereas emotional infidelity tends to

590
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 4: spark hurt feelings.

591
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: So if we have these like sharper.

592
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 4: Reactions to sexual infidelity, it makes sense that when the

593
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: keys are being shaken in front of our faces, where like,

594
00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,240
Speaker 4: don't sleep with other people, know that amygdala is like yeah,

595
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 4: how dare you, Whereas like creating that intimate relationship with

596
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 4: someone else that might not be physical can be devastating

597
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: because the other person might be sitting there saying, I've

598
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 4: been wanting you to talk to me about those things.

599
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm here right, and I mean, either one can shake

600
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: the foundation of your own identity, like, oh my god,

601
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: I have formed this identity as your partner and as

602
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: someone who loves you, and here you are telling me

603
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: that I'm somehow not good enough, whether it's good enough

604
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 1: sexually or good enough emotionally, Like that can really obviously

605
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: do a number on you. And there was a twenty

606
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: fourteen study in the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy

607
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: that looked at not only gender identity but also sexual orientation,

608
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: and they found that across all of these factors, again,

609
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: sexual infidelity elicited more distress than emotional infidelity. But women

610
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: and great people on the whole had stronger emotions about

611
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: both sexual and emotional infidelity than men and lesbian and

612
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: gay people in the survey. It's very interesting, so everybody's

613
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: real upset about infidelity, but women and straight people are

614
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: apparently more upset on the whole.

615
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 4: Well, and there was a more recent study that came

616
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 4: out in January twenty sixteen in the Archives of Sexual Behavior,

617
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 4: which found that while more straight men were upset over

618
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 4: sexual infidelity than emotional infidelity and straight women were more

619
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 4: upset over emotional infidelity, bisexual men and women didn't really differ.

620
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: I mean, like across the board, and ditto for lesbians

621
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 4: and gay men.

622
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: It's like, regardless.

623
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 4: Of who they might have been with, they just weren't

624
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 4: down with any kind of cheating.

625
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: Is that kind of what what they were finding.

626
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 4: Whereas there's something about straight people where we are more.

627
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: Maybe we're moraged. It could be that we're more threatened

628
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: by alternative arrangements. I'm wondering, you know, And I'm not

629
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: saying that like oh, you're bisexual, so you're tolerant of cheating,

630
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: or like oh you're a gay man, so you're like

631
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: cool with your partner having multiple partners, like your alternative lifestyle. Yeah, yeah,

632
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: I'm totally That's not what I'm insinuating. But what I

633
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: am saying is that perhaps if you are part of

634
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: that like super heteronormative mainstream, you've been force fed these

635
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: ideas about what marriage and relationships are supposed to be,

636
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: and they are supposed to be your true love, your soulmate.

637
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: They are supposed to be everything to you, your best friend,

638
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: your accountant, and your lawnmower, all of these things wrapped

639
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: up in one and perhaps LGBTQ people have had to

640
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: imagine up until you know, we're finally seeing marriage equality,

641
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: have had to envision alternate possibilities for their relationships.

642
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: I don't know.

643
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a theory, and.

644
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 4: I would think attached to that as well are the

645
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 4: normative gender roles that are hitched to our heteronormative straight

646
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 4: relationship scripts, where it's you know, you have the men

647
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 4: who are supposed to be the accounts of the lawnmowers.

648
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 4: You know, like guys are supposed to provide one thing

649
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 4: and women are supposed to provide another. You know, men

650
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 4: are supposed to be the bread winners.

651
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: Women cook the bread. They toast the bread.

652
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, are the bread they do all the

653
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: bread things. And there's also the idea too that masculinity

654
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: equals more aggressive, angers, more acceptable.

655
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: And they want sex all the time.

656
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: Right, So there is a lot of like you said,

657
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of gender norm stuff, baggage and reactions

658
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: wrapped up in the survey results.

659
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds like a lot of straight folks in

660
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 4: these studies are operating out of stereotypical assumptions.

661
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: And maybe not really communicating well with each other.

662
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: I don't know.

663
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that this also gets into

664
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 4: the need for not just communicating about relationship, be things

665
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 4: with your partner, but being able to communicate obviously about

666
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 4: sexualeting and expectations.

667
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and boundaries.

668
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah you know, so what kind of real talk do

669
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: you need to have if emotional infidelity is happening, how.

670
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: Do you fix it? Well, so a lot of this

671
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: is advice coming from Gail Salt again, but the first

672
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: thing you want to do is take responsibility. Don't try

673
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: to live in denial land. We were like, no, we're

674
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: just friends. Stop it, and don't blame any infidelity or

675
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: like emotional cheating or anything on your partner. Don't turn

676
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: around and be like, well, if you would just mowe

677
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: the lawn more, or if you had just brought me

678
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: chicken home from the grocery store, I would not have

679
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: done this. No, be an adult, be a grown up,

680
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: and take responsibility for your actions and also end it. Hello, No,

681
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: you cannot stay friends and keep the person in your

682
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: life or on your Facebook account if you have committed

683
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: emotional and fidelity with them and you want to keep

684
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: your significant other. It's different if you guys are breaking

685
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: up and the kind.

686
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 4: Of brutal honesty that a lot of therapists recommend these

687
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: situations where I mean, you have to come out, you know,

688
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 4: and ask the questions you need to ask, be straightforward

689
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 4: about what's going on, which can which.

690
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: Can hurt, for sure. But that's also where.

691
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 4: We can look to people who are insuccessful open relationships

692
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 4: or polyamorous relationships and learn some lessons because these people

693
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 4: have emotional and physical relationships with people outside of a

694
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 4: primary unit, and they operate right within an environment of

695
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 4: radical honesty and even compersion, which is a feeling of

696
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: happiness when your partner finds someone that they like and

697
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 4: maybe want to have sex with.

698
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: I didn't. I don't think I knew there was a

699
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: word for that.

700
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.

701
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 4: That's more within like the polyamory lexicon. And while I'm

702
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: not saying that the answer is for everyone to open

703
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 4: up their relationships, but I'm saying, like those kinds of

704
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 4: it's not about the sex, I guess is what I'm

705
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 4: trying to say is that there can be perfectly healthy

706
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 4: and happy, satisfying long term relationships that don't that don't

707
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 4: require monogamy because what we require ultimately is honest communication.

708
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: Right exactly. And so when your partner has had an

709
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: emotional affair and your relationships not open, and that's not

710
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: gonna fly, and hopefully you guys have already communicated about

711
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: your wants, needs and expectations around monogamy or not. You know,

712
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: like Kristen said, there are some tough questions and and

713
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's best to stay away from the gritty

714
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: nitty gritty details, as you know, and that's especially if

715
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: there's been sexual infidelity. But you know, asking your partner,

716
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: what are you getting from this interaction? You know, have

717
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: I done something? Is there something that you've wanted to

718
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: talk to me about? Is there something you're not getting

719
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: from our relationship? You know, is your self esteem or

720
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: your sense of self suffering?

721
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 4: And take heart that it doesn't have to be the

722
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 4: end of your relationship unless you want it to.

723
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: Be right, and you can right you can rebuild it

724
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: obviously takes a lot of time. Openness and accountability there

725
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: will be to yours and possibly some panic attacks. But

726
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: if you guys are dedicated to working through those difficult patches,

727
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: then I think a better, more open communication relationship is

728
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: on the other side of that.

729
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 4: Also, thank you for giving me the name of my memoir,

730
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 4: which will be there will be tears.

731
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 2: And panic attacks. Keep an eye out for that in

732
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 2: your local bookstore. Friends. Well, is it time I think

733
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 2: to talk to listeners. Yes, we want to hear from.

734
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 4: You about this issue because I think it's super common

735
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 4: and I think it's super common for people to hide

736
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 4: it away, and it's something that we need to be

737
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 4: more aware of and be more comfortable talking about. Because

738
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 4: the thing is humans are fallible. People are attracted to

739
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 4: more than one person a lot of times, and rough

740
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 4: patches happen. Stress can you know, be devastating to a relationship.

741
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 4: So we just we just need to be communicating more.

742
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: We just need to be honest, stop trying to be

743
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 4: so perfect. Yeah right, and and block those shady x's

744
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: on Facebook seriously.

745
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: You know who you are.

746
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: So with that to send us your letters, mom, Stuff

747
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 4: at HowStuffWorks dot com is where you can send them.

748
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: We will as always respect your anonymity. If you would

749
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 4: prefer that for a more sensitive topic like this, or

750
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 4: if you just want to shout it out to the world,

751
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: you can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcasts or message

752
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 4: us on Facebook and we've got a couple of messages

753
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 4: to share with you right now.

754
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: All right, Well, speaking of relationships, I have a letter

755
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: here from Amy in response to our lesbian bed death episode.

756
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: She says, I h blah blah blah. She says, as

757
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,479
Speaker 1: a queer siswoman, my friends and I have often joked

758
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: about the bed death thing, and one of my favorite

759
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: images when it's mentioned comes from Rick and Steve. This

760
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: amazing short lived cartoon that was on Logo for a

761
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: while where Kirsten and Dana, the perfect lesbian couple. One

762
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: is butch one is fim, they want a baby, et cetera,

763
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: et cetera, attend the funeral for the bed of their

764
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: friends Ebony and Ivory. Seriously hilarious, but in all seriousness,

765
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,959
Speaker 1: my spouse and I have chatted about this a lot,

766
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: because having now been together for five years, married for

767
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: nearly two, and trying to make a baby least sexy

768
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: process ever for queer folks, and so incredibly invasive, that's

769
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: an episode for you, and trying out new medications. Our

770
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: sex life has dwindled substantially. We ask ourselves whether we mind,

771
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: and the answer most of the time is no. I

772
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: think being raised female and being allowed to access our

773
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: emotions more readily than many sifth straight men are quote allowed,

774
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: we are able to find intimacy in ways other than

775
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 1: through sex. We talk, we kiss, we cuddle it, we flirt.

776
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: We are touching like all of the time, and it

777
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: satisfies a big part of that intimate urge and need

778
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: that having been in a quote straight relationship previously, I

779
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: would have only felt that I had to have sex

780
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: to satisfy. Many of my friends express similar feelings about

781
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: the lack of what we typically consider sex in our relationships.

782
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: Intimacy and closeness are achieved in so many other ways

783
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: just by being in touch with our connections to our

784
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: partners that just because we don't necessarily orgasm while engaging

785
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: in intimacy doesn't mean we're missing out on some essential

786
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: part of our relationships. Sex is great, but what is

787
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: the goal in the end? If it is closeness and

788
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: eroticism and intimacy, then I get it. All night long.

789
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: Folks.

790
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: Well, thank you Amy, and good luck and congrats on

791
00:47:58,760 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: the baby making.

792
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 4: Well, I got a let her hear from Alia, who writes,

793
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 4: I'm a pan sexual person that came out from a

794
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 4: previous relationship with a man for ten years.

795
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: My fiance is the first woman I've.

796
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 4: Been with, and while I got into it not knowing

797
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 4: a thing about real female same sex physical relationships, I

798
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 4: have to say this.

799
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: Is the best sex I've ever had.

800
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 4: We just passed year three and things are every bit

801
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 4: as spicy as before. Yes, we do it much much less,

802
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 4: but if anything, we are enjoying each other more as

803
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: we explore and create a safe space to try all

804
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 4: sorts of things. Entering here four, I feel confident it

805
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 4: will stay strong.

806
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so happy to.

807
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 4: Hear that, Ilia and everybody else we want to hear

808
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 4: from you, too, Mom. Stuff at HowStuffWorks dot com is

809
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 4: our email address and for links to all of our

810
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 4: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos

811
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 4: and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn more

812
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 4: about emotional cheating, head on over to stuff Mom Never

813
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 4: Told You dot com.

814
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics.

815
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 4: Visit HowStuffWorks dot com