1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: His name is John Brown, perhaps better known as Lord 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: Brown or Sir John Brown. He is the former CEO 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: of BP and the author of numerous fascinating books. He 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: is incredibly forthright and straightforward. Without any hesitation, he discusses 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: all sorts of really fascinating things, from engineering to his 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: personal life, to BP and the impact of hydrocarbon's on 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: the environment. If you're interested in what it's like to 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: run a company, what it's like to lead a double life, 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: what it's like to be at the vanguard of engineering, 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: then you're going to find this to be an absolutely 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: fascinating conversation. So, with no further ado, my interview of 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: Sir John Brown. This is Masters in Business with Barry 15 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is the 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: Right Honorable Lord Brown of Mattingly, better known as John Brown. 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: He was the CEO of British Petroleum from to two 18 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: thousand and seven. He is also the former president of 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: the Royal Academy of Engineering. Since two thousand and one, 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: he has been a member of The House of Lords. 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: He is the author of five books, most recently Make Think, Imagine, Engineering, 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: The Future of Civilization. John Brown, Welcome to Bloomberg. Very 23 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: good to be him. So you have a fascinating background 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: and and quite an interesting career. But I have to 25 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: go back to your education. You you earn a degree 26 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: in physics at Cambridge and then you get a MS 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: degree in business at Stanford. What was it like going 28 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: from the UK to California. That must have been a 29 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: little bit of a culture shark. It was very different. 30 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: I found the whole It was ten years after I 31 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: graduated from Cambridge. I went to Stanford. And I went 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: to Stanford because everybody said, don't go to Harvard. It's 33 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: just a pale shadow of what Cambridge actually is. Founded 34 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: by someone who graduated from Cambridge. So go somewhere years ago. 35 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: They have a very short memory of long memories, I 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: should say. So I went to Stanford, and of course 37 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: I found a completely different set of people, a very 38 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: great set of people, entrepreneurs even then. This was in 39 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: the late sevent the early eighties, and they were fascinating 40 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: and the teaching was interesting, the leading edge thinking was interesting, 41 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: and the quality of people both the students and faculty 42 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: was something you couldn't see elsewhere. I don't think so 43 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna cross Harvard off my list, second 44 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: year school, Cambridge and Stanford. That's what wouldn't have send 45 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: the kids. So you graduate, you literally joined BP as 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: an apprentice while at university and you were a mean 47 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: with the firm your entire career. That that's fairly unusual 48 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: these days tell us about having a career with a 49 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: single company. Well, in those days, it wasn't that unusual. 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: I have to say. I joined I technically joined BP 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six the day I went up to 52 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: Cambridge University. They helped pay for my studies, which was 53 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: very important. In fact, I paid for myself entirely from 54 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: the age of eighteen for everything I did by winning 55 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: a couple of scholarships to Cambridge, one which was involving 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: the across disciplinary approach if you were a scientist who 57 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: had to write a thesis on something to do with arts, 58 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: and I wrote a thesis about Iran where I had 59 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: lived at the Safavid architecture of Isfahan. So I won 60 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: a lot of money and that kept me going through university. 61 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: But I joined, and about every year I thought i'd leave, 62 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: and so I be offered jobs, and somehow BP offered 63 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: me a better job, and every time I was thinking 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: of going, I had a bigger and bigger challenge. So 65 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: I I went to Alaska in nineteen sixty nine because 66 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: I had asked to go to the United States. Alaska 67 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: was not quite what I had in mind, but I 68 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: found myself working two hundred miles north of the Arctic Circle, 69 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: near Point Barrow on the testing oil wells, which turned 70 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: out to be the Prudeo Bay oil Field, one of 71 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: the greatest oil fields ever discovered in North America. So 72 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: that's what I did, and up from field work it graduated. 73 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: One day my I was about to leave my Bosque 74 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: aim In and said, um, would you like to come 75 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: to New York with me? I said, when do we pack? Uh? 76 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: And off I went to New York and for four 77 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: years and life carried on from that. Our weather in 78 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: New York is not great, but it's certainly better than 79 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: than the Arctic Circle. You mentioned the work you did 80 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: in Iran. I'm reminded of of some of your travels 81 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: in your book Beyond Business, where you describe meaning some 82 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: of the world's let's call them most colorful despots, Colonel 83 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: Kadafi in Libya, Vladimir Putin at his country, Docta, Venezuelan 84 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: leader Hugo Chavez, as well as UH communist despot despots 85 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: in Kazakhstan and secret meetings with Russian oligarch's. The obvious 86 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: question is why this motley crew? But I think we 87 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: all know the answer. They seem to be where the 88 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: oil is correct. I mean it's I think someone said 89 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: once that God had played a joke on people and 90 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: put the oil in places where people didn't want to go. 91 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: We can't find oil under London, it's probably very good thing. 92 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: We would never be allowed to produce it, or or 93 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: in New York. You can find oil in California, and 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to develop and produce. There's plenty of 95 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: oil in the North Sea, so you have access not 96 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: too far fur not, but not enough. It was a 97 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: very important discovery the North Sea, both in the UK 98 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: and Norway, and it's still producing quite a lot of 99 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: oil and gas, but there's more oil and gas outside 100 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: those areas. And and in those days, of course, the Permian, 101 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: the Permian Basin was a place which was declining. I 102 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: went there for field training when it was sort of 103 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: on decline, and you were taught how to save one 104 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: cent because that made all the difference to the profitability 105 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: of a well. So it really taught you the basics 106 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: of act. But now, of course it's a tremendous place 107 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: where everybody wants to invest and growing like gangbusters. And 108 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: that's strictly because of the new technology of fracking and 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: the ability to take what was previously not productive fields 110 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: and turned them to giant winforce. So it was a 111 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: way of releasing what geology put in place, what history 112 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: put in place that couldn't flow naturally. So this is 113 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: so called hydraulic fracking, hydraulic fracturing, a technique which I 114 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: may say was invented by one of the companies in 115 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: the bp group, by AMCO, the Standard All of Indiana, 116 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: which is part of bp UH. And so it's a 117 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: it's a very very h the likely used activity until 118 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: suddenly the Permian appeared and when it was became a 119 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: very heavily used and quite controversial technique. So one of 120 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: the things you mentioned in in I believe it was 121 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: beyond business. Vladimir Putin was one of the few people 122 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: you said you were determined to say goodbye to before 123 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: leaving BP. Why is that? Well, I think I had 124 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: Whether this is the Stockholm syndrome working, I'm not sure, 125 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: but I'd spent so much time with him. Recall that 126 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: we're pulled together a big deal in Russia called t 127 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: NK BP, and we were the biggest foreign investment in 128 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: Russia and also the fastest growing or in gas company 129 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: in Russia. We applied modern management, contemporary technology to some 130 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: very good assets that were declining under the Soviet Union's rule. 131 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: So I met him at least once a quarter and 132 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: we had a standard agenda which I went through to 133 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: tell him how well we were doing, and he would 134 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: always say you must do more, and then we would 135 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: have a discussion about who owned it. And I did 136 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: a deal, a very important deal which said that BP 137 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: and and the Russian part and Mr Putin always said 138 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: that will never work, it will blow up and really 139 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: should be and I'm Mr Putin want fifty one, and 140 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: so when Mr President, I want the other way around. 141 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: So that's why we're fifty fifty. And actually it worked 142 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: remarkably well. Now things a number of people have over 143 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: the years have complained that it's very challenging to do 144 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: business in Russia, that the rule of law is not 145 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: the same as it is in Europe or the United States, 146 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: that you can't rely on contracts, that there is a 147 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: black market as well as an underground that makes business challenging. There. 148 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: You guys seem to have done pretty well there. What why? How? 149 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: First of all, how accurate are those descriptions? And second 150 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: why was BP able to succeed where lots of other 151 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: companies were unable? So I think the description is accurate, 152 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: but it changes over time, you know so, because Russia 153 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: doesn't stand still either, so it gets better and worse depending. 154 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: So I think the most important thing about this sort 155 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: of business that BPS in or any other company like that, 156 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: is you have to be sure you're wanted and you're 157 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: doing something that the country really wants you to do. 158 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: And so that's what kept BP in the position that 159 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: it could do business the way I wanted to do it, 160 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: because Putin said, I see I need a foreign investor, 161 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: I need to demonstrate to the world that these people 162 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: are doing good things. I'm growing, I'm modernizing, And BP 163 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: did all those things, and as a result, we were 164 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: able to with scale, with the big scale that we had, 165 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: and with our partners, who were pretty good, they're very good, 166 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: we were able to navigate a path which kept us 167 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: on the straight and narrow, and that's really what we did. 168 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: Do you still have a good relationship with the Putin 169 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: or has everybody's interests move on and they've all moved on? 170 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I haven't seen Mr Putin since I left BP. 171 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: And what what he was by that point in time? 172 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: He was President of Russia? Yes he was, Yes, I 173 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: remember he. I first met him when he came to London. 174 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: Let's see, I think in late nine when Yeltsin was 175 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: the president and we were all looking at Mr Putin 176 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: saying this is a young and refreshing person who talks 177 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: about the rule of law and getting things done, and 178 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: we thought this was terrific. Um. And actually his first 179 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: term that's exactly what he did, quite quite quite interesting. UM. 180 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up something you had said in 181 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: an interview not too long ago along the those lines 182 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned you would like to see more scientists and 183 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: engineers in top corporate and political positions. Explain you're thinking 184 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: behind that. I would like to see them in these 185 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: positions because they're trained in a way of thinking that 186 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: is different from being trained in economics, that sale, political science, 187 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: or journalism. It's very different. It's a it's a very 188 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: different way of looking at facts and building theories and 189 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: testing them, and very practical too. Engineers, after all, have 190 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: to get things done and they were and they have 191 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: to get them done, and they have to work without 192 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: beyond a shadow of doubt. I mean, you don't want 193 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: to walk across a bridge which has a fifty probability 194 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: of standing up. It's not a good idea as opposed 195 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: to the forecast of the average economist may or may 196 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: not career remotely. You can't do that. So it's a 197 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: different way of thinking. It's a practical way of doing things, 198 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: and it's actually a very truthful approach. I think most 199 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: scientists and engineers are taught that in the end, you 200 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: have to say that you have to talk about the truth. 201 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: You have to be fact based and you can't spin 202 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: anything or add a layer of complexity to it. So 203 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: people can't quite understand it in the end, because advances 204 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: about challenge, and it's about challenge and testing, which is 205 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: based on facts and truth. So perhaps that explains why 206 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: there are so few scientists and engineers as politicians. It's possible, 207 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: it's possible without the spin, it becomes very much a 208 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: challenge to get elected. If you're telling the truth and 209 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: telling people what they don't want to hear from time 210 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: to time. I suppose that's called a technocratic politician. And 211 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, uh, you know. For example, 212 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: Italy has had a series of when they really get 213 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: into a trouble, they have a technocratic prime minister and Monty, 214 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: for example, Mario Monty work pretty well, sort of dow 215 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. Very unpopular though, because he kept 216 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: talking about the truth. And I have to start with 217 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: the quote of yours early in the book. Engineering is 218 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: wrapped all around us like a protective and life sustaining blanket. 219 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: Explain which is what I firmly believed. Let me say so, 220 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: I like to start a little bit back from there. 221 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: Everything you look at in the way the progress and civilization, civilization, 222 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: progressive civilization of humanity is based on engineering. Whether that's 223 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: the flint ax, you know, hold a massively beautiful objects 224 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: in your hand, was very important to begin to think 225 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: about how you carve up an animal and how you 226 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: change the way you survive through to looking at something 227 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: which opens the imagination, like the James Web telescope. Butut 228 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: Godard Space Center, this is an amazing thing. We're going 229 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: to fire it into space a million miles away from us, 230 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: the so called Second Grange in Point, and it's going 231 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: to sit there unfold like a piece of ore gamy, 232 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: a hundred and forty folds, and then it's going to 233 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: look towards the beginning of time. Now that's incredible. It 234 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: just fires the imagination to think you could actually look 235 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: towards the beginning of time and you might actually see 236 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: some planets on the way, you know, and they might 237 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: actually tell you something about life. So I think I 238 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: find that very exciting. That's about civilization. It's wrapping our mind. 239 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: It's giving our mind a blanket which allows it to 240 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: think securely and imagine, which is what human beings do. 241 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: So I think engineering is the is the golden thread 242 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: through everything. It protects us, of course it does. It 243 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: protects us from disease. You know, we all get healthier, 244 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: we live longer. It protects us from poverty. You know, 245 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: were world is getting rich less, people living in in 246 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: in extreme poverty. And actually it protects us from violence 247 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: as well. When I was writing this book, what I 248 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: found fascinating was the world has actually become less violent 249 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: the more advanced the weaponry has become. And so that's 250 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: a protective blanket. It's the engineering has allowed everyone to say, Okay, 251 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: I get it. If we start doing something, someone will 252 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: do something to us. It's not necessarily mutually assured destruction. 253 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: Not it's not, but it's a deterrent. It's it's mutually 254 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: assured disturbance, you know, big, big disturbance, And that's what 255 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: keeps us in equilibrium. And and engineering does all of that. 256 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: And remember it really is something about safety, because I 257 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: contend that engineering engineers have saved far more lives than 258 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: all the physicians in the world because of the ability 259 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: to public health engineering, molec fuels, engineering drugs. Go to 260 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: a hospital, Look at the kit, look at the equipment, 261 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: m R eyes, cat scans. Uh. You know what's in 262 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: an intensive care ward robotic surgery? You know, which is 263 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: you don't damage the nerves. You know, much more precise 264 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: than much more precise the knives that cut the flesh, 265 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: that immediately can detect whether they're close to a canterrous cell. 266 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: So all of this is amazing stuff. And I I 267 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: love when I spoke to Robert Langer at m I 268 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: T it's a great inventor. He's called the Edison of medicine. 269 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: Is is this the Da Vinci machine. No, he's the 270 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: one that thinks of blood as a great chemical engineering 271 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: experience and tries to get get drugs to the place 272 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: they should go rather than throughout the whole body. So 273 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: rather than chemotherapy going through the whole body, actually using 274 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: the blood him to get something to an exact place. 275 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: And I thought his phrase was wonderfully said, you know, 276 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: my ambition is just is to reduce suffering, and that's 277 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: what engineering allows me to do. That. That's quite fascinating. 278 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: Your throughout the book, you you reference the reduction of 279 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: things like not only war and crime, but the increased longevity. 280 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: Reminded me a lot of Stephen Pinker's book The Better 281 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: Angels of Our Nature or is it the other way around? 282 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: Better Nature of Our Angels? Um Better Angels of Our Nature, 283 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: which talks about what the media doesn't, which is wherever 284 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: you look, whether it's literacy or childhood, hunger or just 285 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: come up with a list of markers of human progress. 286 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: We've done really well over the past thousand years. Certainly 287 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: I agree. I mean I took a very broad sweep, 288 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: and I took also somethings where today I would say 289 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: to say that they're really good is controversial in many 290 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: sectors of society, for example, oil and gas, for example, 291 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: facial recognition for example, the social media, and the issues 292 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: to do with privacy. There are many good aspects to 293 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: all this. There are also some bad ones, but it 294 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: it raises the more general point that all engineering has 295 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: great intended consequences that most de great, sure, but also 296 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: unintended consequences. And the question is how do you balance this, hope, 297 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: And that's been happening since people first made a piece 298 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: of kit for anything, for sailing, So it's the balances 299 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: is partly about rules and regulations you don't use it 300 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: for this, partly about education. You know, it's not right 301 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that engineers should say, let's do it because I can 302 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: do it, should stop for a moment and say should 303 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: I do it? Should I do it? And in corporations 304 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: that's of course the role of boards and leaders, But 305 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: it's also about engineering itself. I think, you know, in 306 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: my area energy, I don't believe anyone purposefully decided to 307 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: create an unstable climate by pumping c O two into 308 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: the atmosphere through burning hydrocarbons. What they wanted to do 309 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: was to give people light, heat, and mobility better than 310 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: burning well oil as you or wood or cutting down forests, 311 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: but also giving people a very different modern way. So, 312 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: but we've created a problem, and I've been on this 313 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: point for almost a quarter century now saying you know, 314 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: it's the oil and gas industries that's created this problem, 315 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: and we need to fix it. And the way to 316 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: fix it is not to stop in engineering, is to 317 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: apply more engineering to solving the problem. And actually in 318 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: this area, I would say that we have already all 319 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 1: the engineering processes to stop pumping as much as the 320 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: CEO two into the atmosphere, and actually even to clean 321 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: up some of the CEO two. The problem is that 322 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: the processes, the engineering products are too expensive until they 323 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: are rolled out in massive scale, because isn't that a 324 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: chicken and egg problem? Meaning this is where policy comes in. 325 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: So in other words, policy has to push these these 326 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: new engineered products to the point where they become more 327 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: economical exactly. So you can't say, oh, well, we have 328 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: to invent all that. You don't have to invent. We 329 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: need to apply. And this is where engineering is very 330 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: good because as you apply more and more, so the 331 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: unit cost comes down. We know that for sure. So 332 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: but you need a policy lever my my. When I 333 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: look at all the policy dvas, I say, the biggest 334 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: policy of you need is a price on carbon carbon taxes. 335 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: You probably need other things as well, but it's going 336 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: to be priced high enough so that people can actually 337 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: do something to get it out of the system. Quite interesting. 338 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: I very much like the way you structured the book 339 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: via the chapters. The titles are progress, make, think, Connect, Build, Energize, 340 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: which we were just discussing, move, defense, Survive, Imagine that 341 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: that was really um quite interesting. One of the things 342 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: that really didn't get a lot of UM pages was 343 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: modern food and agriculture, which is really how we're going 344 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: to support eight billion people and keep them fed. What 345 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: is it about agriculture that seems to be so different 346 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: from the other technologies you discussed, because clearly there's been 347 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: men this progress in terms of yield per acre and 348 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: how much a single farmer can produce, so in choosing 349 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: what to write about, I only wrote about things that 350 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: I've been involved in, and because otherwise I can't actually write. 351 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not someone writing a survey. So I'm 352 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: writing about things I've been involved in one way or another. 353 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, whether it's being on the board of Intel 354 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: or Damond Diamond Bentz, or whether it's being on the 355 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: board of the Creek Institute, the biomedical Research facility. It's 356 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. So I said, I've actually 357 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: got to have some connectivity here. I used to be 358 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: Norman Foster, the Great Architect's chairman at one stage when 359 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: he was thinking of taking his company public. So I've 360 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: been involved in and out with all the things that 361 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: I've been talking about, and I've never actually done anything 362 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: in food production or agriculture. And so I said, there 363 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: are plenty of people who will talk about that. Let 364 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: me talk rather selectively because I get as the author, 365 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: I get to choose, and I chose the things that 366 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: I felt comfortable to talk about because I've had some 367 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: hands on experience. I had actually met the people I've 368 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: been involved and so it allowed me to speak from 369 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: the first person quite quite interesting. I want to talk 370 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about a book you wrote in the 371 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: Glass Closet, and that's only five years ago, but it 372 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: seems like so much has changed in in half half 373 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: a decade. In the book, you point out coming out 374 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: of the closet is good business. Explain what you meant 375 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: by that. What I meant was that when people can 376 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: be themselves in the place of work, they bring their 377 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: whole selves to the work and they can feel included 378 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: rather than separate and apart. And one of the things 379 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: that I think every CEO knows in their heart and 380 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: they statistically is that if you can build teams where 381 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: people really feel included, the actually go and work to 382 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: the purpose of the firm. When people see people being excluded, 383 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: it creates a lot of grits in the system. People 384 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: don't actually give their whole cells. They say, well, I 385 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: could be excluded too. So inclusion is really and part 386 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: of inclusion is being yourself and coming out. I would 387 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: say that that's not a piece of advice for everybody 388 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: because you have to be a situation sensitive. So coming 389 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: out in Uganda not I think be a good idea 390 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: or Saudi Arabia, you know, because it's against the law 391 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: or it's against norms with tremendous punishments, sometimes death, so 392 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: you have to be sensible about this. But in in 393 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: the society of the United States, the United Kingdom, most 394 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: of Europe, then it's something that absolutely people can choose 395 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: to do, and when they do it almost certainly it 396 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: produces a better result than staying in the closet. So is, 397 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: when the book came out in the United States, this 398 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: was not the top of the agenda for then President 399 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: Barack Obama. In fact, he was not the most progressive 400 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: person in terms of his views on marriage equality. And 401 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: I think it was then Vice President Joe Biden who 402 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: sort of accidentally forced the issue, and Obama stepped up 403 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: and the forecasts of uh royling society turned out to 404 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: be completely wrong. It was very quickly accepted and wreck 405 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: It's only five years ago, but it just seems like 406 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: a given. What was the experience like in the UK. 407 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: I know you worked on some legislation similar to the 408 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: US Marriage Equality Act, it was the same. I remember 409 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: this book was published in was actually written in so 410 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: that was quite a bit of time ago. But I 411 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: think things have changed dramatically. So in the UK I 412 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: sat through big debates in the House of Lords about 413 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: marriage equality. I heard bigotry coming out loud and clear. 414 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: You know that gay people really make great decorators and entertainers, 415 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: and my best friends are gay person but I have 416 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: them as a token pet, you know. I mean, the 417 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: list went on and on and on. But actually when 418 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: it came to the vote, I think at that time 419 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: it was the single largest turnout of lords in the 420 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: House to vote and it was overwhelmingly supported. I remember 421 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: going through the lobby with some of the most important 422 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: Catholics in England and someone said to me. One of 423 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: them said, look to me. A friend of mine said, 424 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to burn in hell for this, but we're 425 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: going to get this done. And I thought that was 426 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: a wonderful statement, to say, this is the right thing 427 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: for the nation. And it really was. And I think 428 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: it was a tremendous achievement that changed attitudes a long way. 429 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: It loosened people up a bit, and and the Brits 430 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: do need loosening avocationally, just to touch So so here's 431 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: the interesting thing. In the United States, despite the legislation 432 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: and despite a somewhat accepting society, not a lot of 433 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: chief executives are either gay or if they are gay, 434 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: out of the closet. Probably the best known CEO is 435 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: going to be Tim Cook of of Apple, a giant company. 436 00:28:53,760 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: Venture capitalist Peter Thial came out, Um, sort of dragged 437 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: out of the closet. I don't think he was treated 438 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: fairly by some of the media. The CEO of Lloyds 439 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: of London in the UK not too long ago, she 440 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: she stepped down. Um, what does it mean that there 441 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: are some high profile people who are LGBT as leaders 442 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: of company? How how significant is this? Well, look, I 443 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: think I want to go back to what happened when 444 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: I was a student. When I was a student, it 445 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: was if you were gay and you actually had a 446 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: sexual encounter with a man, you'd get a prison. Really, 447 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: in sixty seven it was illegal in the UK. Changed, 448 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: I mean it was by the way, lots of laws 449 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: like that on the books in the United States. So 450 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: the law changed. And when seven, it was ten years 451 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: after the so called Wolfton report was put before the House. 452 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: It took ten years to persuade people to change the law. 453 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: And when the law changed, nothing happened. No, no, no, no, 454 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Because behavior lags the law hugely hugely, and I think 455 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: is that backwards behavior legs the law, the law legs 456 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: actual behavior were both. So you change the law, the 457 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: behavior that was established with the law still stays in place, 458 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: and it takes ages for it to change. In my view, 459 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: I think law is important and necessary, not sufficient obviously, 460 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: so I think people still there's a generation GAMP. I 461 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: think there's also some other issues to do with boards 462 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: of directors, probably quite conservative. Don't want to have too 463 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: many what you might call floating variables around. You know, 464 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: you want to you want to reduce your problem, as 465 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: it were, to have a CEO that you know is 466 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: just has no peripheral activity that might possibly get in 467 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: the way of the company. Does that help explain while 468 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: why today there's still a very short list of CEO 469 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: or I think it's a It could be one reason. 470 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: We don't know what the real reasons are. I think 471 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: that might be one reason. Another one might be people 472 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: self selecting out, possibly saying actually I just don't want 473 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: the profile. Uh. Some there may be some basic hidden discrimination, 474 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: very possible, but you're right, I mean, that's a handful 475 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: of CEOs who are openly gay in the SMP invariably 476 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: I think about maybe four or so, but you know, 477 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: statistically we should have five to fifty. So something's wrong here. 478 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: Either twenty twenty one to forty six CEOs are in 479 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: the closet or something else is happening. So and and 480 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: and that's worrying for the simple reason that it's so 481 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: important to have role models out there. Otherwise you don't 482 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: encourage people. You can't say to people, well, you know, 483 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: just come out, it'll be great, it'll be good for 484 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: your career. And they say, well, that's very interesting, John, 485 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: But show me where the c ears are. Show me 486 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: where they are. And so that's why this is a 487 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: very important point. So the question I have to ask 488 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: you is, while you were CEO of BP, not being 489 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: public about your sexuality, how did that affect the way 490 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: you want about your job? Not? It certainly affected it. 491 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: I think what it did is it it It allowed 492 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: me to focus only on my job at the exclusion 493 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: of my self, basically my private life and developing who 494 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: I really was. And I did that partly because my 495 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: thought process got stranded. I when I wrote this book, 496 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: I had the story which always sticks with me. As 497 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: I went to the hay Litty Festival to be interviewed 498 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: about the glass closet in the Q and A a 499 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: young man got up in the audience and said, I 500 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: am in the say business as you for your competitor 501 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: read Shell, you know. And he said, here's the thing, John, 502 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: we all knew you were gay before you came out, 503 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: but the only thing was none of us were brave 504 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: enough to come and tell you that. And I thought 505 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: to myself, that explains everything. So I heard because I 506 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: was a child of the sixties, because my mother was 507 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: a survivor of the Holocaust, and she reminded me, never 508 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: tell anyone a secret because they will surely use it 509 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: against you. And never become a member, an identifiable vocal 510 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: member for minority, because when the going gets tough, the 511 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: majority always hurt the minority. So arm with those points, 512 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: I said to myself, I'm going to stay in the 513 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: closet forever. And so that's what I did. I ran 514 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: a double life. Uh. You know, when I was young, 515 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: it was kind of fun, you know, you could, but 516 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: that as as I got more and more well known, 517 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: became more and more dangerous, and I had to go 518 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into secrets. So uh, and then eventually 519 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: I got out it but for all the reasons I 520 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: explained in the book, and it caused me. I didn't 521 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: know what it did do is it made me make 522 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: some really bad judgments that I couldn't even believe I 523 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: had done myself about you know, how to keep it 524 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: all secret. I had a relationship with an escort who 525 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: I actually thought was a relationship. He was the guy 526 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: who sold the story to the press, you know, sold 527 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: it for money. I lied in a in a witness statement, 528 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: not in a fortunately, not in court about how I 529 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: had met this guy because I couldn't bring myself to 530 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: explain what it was. These things I don't do. But 531 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: the circumstances were such that they created some really bad 532 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: judgments in my mind. And I think I learned a 533 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: lot about why it's so important therefore to be truthful 534 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: and to be yourself, because the moment you get into 535 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: a situation where you are dissembling, everything starts going wrong, 536 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: and that I think is a very That's one of 537 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: the reasons why it's so important whenever you possibly can 538 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: to come out, you know, if if you're going to 539 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: be hurt, if it's unsafe, don't do it, but but 540 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: think about it. Hard. The Glass Closet was quite a 541 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: brave book, especially considering that which is only five years ago. 542 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: But it might as well have been It might as 543 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: well have been a lifetime ago. Any regrets about the 544 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: book or you find it's freeing and you were happy 545 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: you not put it out. I think a lot of 546 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: people still want the book. They talk to me about 547 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: the book. It's a topic which comes up again and again. 548 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: Actually when I'm signing my other books we had. I 549 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: was signing the last book at Harvard Bookstore that second 550 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: to your school, and a couple of guys came up 551 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: and I signed the books of them, and then they 552 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: rather sheepishly pulled out a very dog eared copy of 553 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: The Glass Closet and said, we've lent this to everyone. 554 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: I said, how dare you, you know, feel loyalties? But 555 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: they said, could you sign it please? Because this is 556 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: why we got married. And you know that's that's pretty good. 557 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: Quite quite, I think, if I may. I think one 558 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: of the things to note why I think this book 559 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: is so important is that things aren't always going forward. 560 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: They also go backwards. And you look at some of 561 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: the regularly the behavior in Europe against gay people. It's 562 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: beginning to switch. With these right wing parties coming in power, 563 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot of re enactment of discrimination, and I 564 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: think people need to be reminded that that's the place 565 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: we don't want to go to. So when you were 566 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: a CEO at BP, an aired campaign was launched Beyond Petroleum. 567 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the thinking there and 568 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: and how it was received. What did beyond Petroleum mean 569 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: for an oil company. So it's worth going back a 570 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: little bit before two thousand. But by the BP, my 571 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: executive team and I we had concluded that climate change 572 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: was a real threat and we had to do something 573 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: about it. So I stood up at Stanford University at 574 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: the Frost Auditorium and gave a speech about climate change, 575 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: and I said, climate change is happening. We are responsible 576 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: for this, and we need to do something about it. 577 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: And I laid out an action plan. Rather than just 578 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: wringing my hands and saying it's a terrible problem, I said, 579 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: we're going to do the following things. In a trade 580 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: carbon internally, invest in renewables, invest in alternative for fuels 581 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: of art and measure what we were doing and seal 582 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: up all the methane. And we weren't leaking it because 583 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: it's a bad greenose gas. So we did all that. 584 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: It didn't go down well with the industry. I would 585 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: say that's an British understatement. They the American Petroleum Institute 586 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: said that I had left the church whatever that meant, 587 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: the church of the Church of the API. I think 588 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: the Church of the petroleum industry. Okay, well, and the 589 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: question is was it the Church of the petroleum industry 590 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: or the Church of global warming denialism? Which I think 591 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: it was that where the oil industry was in large part. So. 592 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: But but then what had happened was we realized that 593 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: we got such a huge support internally. It changed the 594 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: way BP thought about itself, how it recruited, could get 595 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: very different people coming in. And actually we realized that 596 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: we were thinking beyond petroleum, what was going to happen 597 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: beyond petroleum. So we decided that that was going to 598 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: be our strap line, thinking about beyond petroleum. And it 599 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: was kind of neat because BP beyond petroleum a sort 600 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: of worked together. And besides, we had to rebrand. By 601 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: that time, I had undertaken a whole variety of massive deals, 602 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, merging with Amaco, with our co with Castrol, 603 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: with Fabor. These were very big deals and it changed 604 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 1: dramatically BP and we needed a new identity because everyone 605 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: came from somewhere else. I remember the the Amaco deal 606 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: was just giant. It was the largest I think financial transact, 607 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: industrial financial transaction ever at the time. Nowadays because the 608 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: numbers are telephone directories, it's it's peanuts. But it was 609 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 1: big and of course very complex because a lot of people, 610 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: a lot of activities and operations and so forth. So 611 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: we concluded that we may as well say what we 612 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: were thinking, which is we were thinking beyond petroleum. Now 613 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: I think that we were. I think the error I 614 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: made is I think it was too early. Uh, and 615 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: we we took one step too far. We couldn't actually 616 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: keep everyone out in the outside world with us. In 617 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: the inside world. We kept everyone together, couldn't quite get 618 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: it to gel with within the company, everybody was on 619 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: the same stage. Well, well mostly when you say everybody 620 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: inside an organization is the rule, Okay, that's everybody. That's 621 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 1: that's that's that's by far everybody. It's slightly better than politics, 622 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: I think, but it's not a means. It's about and 623 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: what was interesting was the quality of people who joined 624 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: the company suddenly changed. I mean, we've got people coming 625 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: to us rather than going to Palo Alto, so a 626 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: competitive advantage. By embracing, we've got we've got some extraordinary people. 627 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: And these extraordinary people are now in pretty important positions 628 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: either in BP or elsewhere. So so BP, but I 629 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: think it was a bit too early, that makes sense. 630 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: Is it still too early? BP is is selling off 631 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: some of its alternative energy businesses. Well, they're reinvesting, so 632 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: they're changing the portfolio. And I don't know in detail 633 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: what they're doing, but they're one of several oil companies 634 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: that are investing in startups in alternative energy or energy efficiency, 635 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: and they're investing in solar and wind, and they're investing 636 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: in alternative fuels, things made of a biological matter rather 637 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: than mineral oil from the ground. So they're doing that. 638 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: A lot of people are doing this. I think the 639 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: oil industry has to focus on the technologies that really 640 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: move the needle, and they're beginning to think how we 641 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: can how they can do that. One of the big technologies, 642 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 1: of course, is the removal of carbon. If you think 643 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: about it, if we could make hydro carbons free of 644 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: carbon were left with hydrogen, and it's a tremendous fuel 645 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,760 Speaker 1: only powers the entire universe. Other than that, it's pretty good. Really, 646 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: it's got a proven track record. As they say, so 647 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: we we need to do that. By burning hydrocarbons, you 648 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: release cere too, So can you capture it and do 649 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: something with it. That's called carbon capture and you either 650 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: store it, so carbon capture and storage or carbon capture 651 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: and use. You can use it. Now there needs to 652 00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: be a lot more work in this area. We know 653 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: the engineering can work, and we know it can be done, 654 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: but it needs policy instruments to make it worthwhile for 655 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 1: corporations to do so that if you put a price 656 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: on carbon by taxing it, the more tax you will avoid, 657 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: the better off you are. So if you can store it, 658 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: then all is good and you can then begin to 659 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: make carbon free hydrocarbons. Now one earth, carbon free hydrocarbons 660 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: one on Earth. Would you want to do this? The 661 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: answer is it's very difficult to replace the hydrocarbons. We 662 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: can't do it with renewable energy. We can't do it 663 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: with alternative energy from sugarcane. It would destroy and have 664 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: other unintended consequences. And you know, while renewables and I've 665 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: been a great proponent of renewables. When I left BP, 666 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: I ran private equity fund, the world's largest renewable energy 667 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: private equity fund for enough billion dollars um. Why can't 668 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: we do it with renewables. The answer is because, after 669 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 1: all this work that's been going on so far, renewables 670 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: at best provides four percent of the energy in the world. 671 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: Four it's going to take a long time for it 672 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: to replace all the hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons are coal, oil, and 673 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: natural gas. Coal will be the first to go, probably 674 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: practically going already not in the world, well in the US, 675 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: in the US, but in India. In India, for example, 676 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: it's expanding, and chin China, China's a bit it's moving 677 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: using a tremendous amounts. I think it's it shrank and 678 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: then grew a bit u But certainly in in Europe 679 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: it's it's going out of the system. Although Poland is 680 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: still providing a lot of coal, and by unintended the 681 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: unintended consequences of the German energy policy called enegy vendor 682 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: actually increased the amount of coal Germany used for what 683 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,439 Speaker 1: was a policy designed to reduce c O two. They 684 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 1: eliminated too many choices too quickly and relied too heavily 685 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: on renewables. Germany uses a lot of brown winds and 686 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: a lot of solar and brown coal. And and is 687 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: there such a thing as clean coal or is that 688 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: an oxymot Clean coal is coal with carbon capture and storage. 689 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: You can't clean it any other way. Coal burning has 690 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: other problems. It produces a variety of very bad mineral 691 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: solsions as well as of particulate matter soot which can 692 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: if it's which can cause lung disease. So so, so 693 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: it's not it's not very appealing. Really, So let's talk 694 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 1: about the end nearing um that you referenced earlier. I'm 695 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: under the impression that a lot of these technologies are 696 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: still a major breakthrough away from going from four to 697 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: to But but you also suggested that a lot of 698 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,439 Speaker 1: engineering solutions already exist. Um, So let's talk about that 699 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: what wet engineering solutions exist today to reduce carbon emissions 700 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: and help prevent climate change. So we we know a 701 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: lot about the improvement in renewables. So the cost is 702 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: coming down and the past going up. Now we know 703 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: that for wind, we know that for solar, and actually 704 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: in solar there's probably one more, very big scientific breakthrough 705 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 1: which could make it even more interesting. It probably won't 706 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: reduce the cost so much, but it will make each 707 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: seller panel three or four times more powerful, So we 708 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: don't more of the space, you know, So if you've 709 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: had a roof of them, you could produce much more electricity. 710 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 1: You have the same issue with battery storage, also need 711 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: and other batteries. Yes, we could do a lot with 712 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: existing batteries. It's not ideal, but it would give us 713 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: a good start. So lithium ion batteries clearly can be 714 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: used and are used at the moment on industrial scales 715 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,240 Speaker 1: to store electricity. But electricity can be stored in different 716 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: ways as well, through making the energy by using it 717 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: to pump water up a hill and then letting the 718 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: water come down. I've seen the bricks and the kinetic robotics. 719 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: That's it creating towers of large potential energy and then 720 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: make a kinetic energy. So is that a viable storage solution. 721 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: People are experimenting with it, and some sensible people have 722 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: invested in them, and so I think it might you know, 723 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: let's see if it works. There are plenty of these technologies, 724 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: so but the main point I think is if we 725 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 1: really push them out today, we're not dealing in most 726 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: cases with breakthrough discoveries. We are looking at engineering improvements, 727 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 1: incremental incremental engineering improvements, which usually come only with application. 728 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: So the more you do, the better you become at something, 729 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: and the cost comes down both on the manufactured base 730 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 1: and on the implementation. So that But that's a rule 731 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: of that sort a rule of engineering. I mean, I 732 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: think it applies to actually everything, except for custom built 733 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants, which somehow seem to get more expensive 734 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: the more you do rather than less. Although small scale 735 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: nuclear probably is the breakthrough that we all are looking for. 736 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,879 Speaker 1: Small scale and I keep reading about thorium reactors, which 737 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,759 Speaker 1: the science isn't quite there, but but you don't end 738 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: up with all of that highly radioactive waste, which certainly 739 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: seems attractive. It it does, I think I would not 740 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: put all my bets there. I what I would what 741 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,239 Speaker 1: I what I do think is important is you know, 742 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: what's good for the Navy is probably good for all 743 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: of us. So small scale reactors built in a factory 744 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to built on site and come on the 745 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: back of a truck and bolted together in a place 746 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: where an old nuclear power plant was is probably a 747 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: much cheaper way of going than building one from scratch. 748 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: So like aircraft carriers and submarines, that size we're talking 749 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 1: probably a bit bigger, but you know, not not I'm 750 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: in there're quite a whole some of those, but but 751 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,440 Speaker 1: that the idea is roughly the same. So a hundred 752 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: megawatts probably is the size. And one of the things 753 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,399 Speaker 1: you mentioned, um when both in the book and when 754 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 1: you discuss climate changes, you said you would love to 755 00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,040 Speaker 1: be known as an engineer and a scientist. Explain of 756 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: thinking there, Well, I would still really love to be 757 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: known as an engineer, period. I mean, I do think 758 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: engineers are the people who look both ways in life. 759 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: They look to the fruits of discovery from what happens 760 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: in the lab and they look at it and say, yes, 761 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,319 Speaker 1: we need to do something with it. And they look 762 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: to the market on the other hand, and to commerce 763 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: and say, this is how we make it work for humanity. Uh. 764 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't want to use one of 765 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: the myriad apparent quotes from Edison, but I think he 766 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: said something similar about discoveries with no market and not 767 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: worth having. But or he may not have said it, 768 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: but but but I do think that's why engineering is 769 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: so important. It's Jane's face. It looks two ways, and 770 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: it looks two ways in one person and create something 771 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,720 Speaker 1: great for humanity. And I think that's a really good 772 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: thing to do. We have been speaking with John Brown, 773 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: former CEO of British Petroleum and author of the new 774 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 1: book Make Think, Imagine Engineering the Future of Civilization. I 775 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,360 Speaker 1: feel odd calling you John, because you are a member 776 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,880 Speaker 1: of the House of Lords and and you've been knighted, 777 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: and you have all of these British titles. I'm just 778 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,359 Speaker 1: a commoner here in the States, so I guess I'll 779 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 1: have to get used to calling you John. There are 780 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: a couple of questions I didn't get tole me, just 781 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 1: if I may go. My dear late father always said 782 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:33,880 Speaker 1: to me said, you know, whatever happens to you in 783 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: the future, you were born John, and you will always 784 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: be John. And he reminded me that, you know, he 785 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: was a military man and worked for the government. He said, 786 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: people have very complicated titles, but actually they're exactly the 787 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: same as anybody else. And never forget it. Uh. He 788 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 1: also told me, he said, when you go to a party, 789 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: he said, you know in Britain they will dress up 790 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: with decorations, medals and things like that. He said, go 791 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: find the person who's wearing none of that. Chances are 792 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:05,919 Speaker 1: he's probably the Prime Minister. I's remember that very well. 793 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: So we didn't get to talk about a book of 794 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: yours that I thought was interesting. Seven Elements that change 795 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,080 Speaker 1: the world, and you discuss iron and carbon and gold, silver, uranium, titanium, 796 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: and silicon. I shared with you earlier this week's Business 797 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: Week about what they called the greatest organizational chart ever, 798 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,320 Speaker 1: the Periodical Table, and it's really quite a work. Every 799 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: element in the Table of Elements has has a story 800 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: about that. But I have to ask about seven Elements 801 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:47,040 Speaker 1: that that is a very science e material science sort 802 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,760 Speaker 1: of book. Tell us about what motivated that. I wanted 803 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: to write a book about the elements that I've been 804 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,760 Speaker 1: involved in and make it as interesting as I could, 805 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 1: almost adventures in Elements, if you will, and talk about, 806 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, how they appear for the good and for 807 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: the bad in the world, and tell stories about them. 808 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: But I've been involved with the Kennicott Copper Corporation, which 809 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,800 Speaker 1: was a big golden silver mining operation. Obviously with carbon, 810 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,359 Speaker 1: was silicon with intel. So again it was very much 811 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: hands on experience and I just wanted to make it exciting. 812 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,759 Speaker 1: And I was writing, I think for a general audience 813 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: who who never really thought about these things and thought that, 814 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, what are elements. I was I'd read a 815 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,000 Speaker 1: wonderful book which which is very different and I would 816 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 1: never dream of aspire getting anywhere close to it. Primo 817 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: Levies book on the Periodic Table. What was that was 818 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,759 Speaker 1: the title? It was called the Periodic Table, and it's 819 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: a Primo Levies ruminations on life generally. So some of 820 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: these are pretty obvious. Iron had a huge impact on 821 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,760 Speaker 1: on warfare a few thousand years ago. Carbon obviously, anything 822 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:12,680 Speaker 1: with energy, gold, uranium, silicon. I have to ask about titanium. 823 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 1: Why did you focus on titanium. It was the wild card. 824 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: I've been involved in the mining of titanium, not least 825 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: in Richardson's Bay in South Africa, and it's one of 826 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,400 Speaker 1: these things which is everywhere and nobody realizes it's everywhere. 827 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 1: Cell phones, titanium, toothpaste, white shirts, paint, it's everywhere because 828 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,319 Speaker 1: it's highly reflective and it creates that whiteness that we 829 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,200 Speaker 1: all like love having white rooms and white floors and 830 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: white clothes. It's it's strange. It's very much a twenty 831 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: one century thing. And and why silver? Since you have gold? 832 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: What what made you include silver as well? Because silver 833 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: has a gold actually you know, in the end, is 834 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: something you mine and then you put it back into 835 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,640 Speaker 1: a vault. A little a little bit of it is 836 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: used for teeth and for jewelry, or at least it 837 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,439 Speaker 1: used to be used for teeth, and enough they're still 838 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: doing that, not a lot, I guess it's now ceramics 839 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,640 Speaker 1: and things like that. But silver, of course was used 840 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,640 Speaker 1: for many other things because it's a reactive element, and 841 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: it was used for photography. And I used a silver 842 00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: and photography as the point of connection there and the image, 843 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,680 Speaker 1: and how we are so used to that now. Of 844 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:43,000 Speaker 1: course silver silver halide is no longer used in photography. 845 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: Well it is by very few people producing beautiful results, 846 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,360 Speaker 1: let me say, But it's now all digital. But silver 847 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:55,439 Speaker 1: has different rules quite quite fascinating. Um, there are two 848 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: other things I have to get to, which which are fascinating. 849 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: So you were a CEO. Well, let me say it 850 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,479 Speaker 1: this way. You weren't were not CEO when the deep 851 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:10,880 Speaker 1: Water Horizon explosion took place in the Gulf of Mexico, 852 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: but you were CEO during the Texas City refinery explosion. 853 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: That had to be a very trying experience. What what 854 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 1: was that period was trying as an understatement. This was 855 00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 1: a terrible industrial accident, a tragedy where fifteen people lost 856 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: their lives and many hundreds were injured in different degrees, 857 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: some small, some bigger. And I remember so well what 858 00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 1: what happened? And I was called and someone said, as 859 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: they always do with an emergency, we think something's happening. 860 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,399 Speaker 1: It's not quite right, you know. And actually that's when 861 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 1: people observed nine eleven. They weren't quite sure what was 862 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,359 Speaker 1: going on. You're never quite sure at the beginning. And 863 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,440 Speaker 1: I they rang me and said there's been an explosion, 864 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,880 Speaker 1: and I st I'm coming down. They said, hold on. 865 00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:13,640 Speaker 1: So I got down to Texas City to find and 866 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,280 Speaker 1: I went round and there were fourteen bodies recovered at 867 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: the time, and I've never seen people so stunned. The workforce. 868 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,439 Speaker 1: I went around, spoke to the whole workforce and as 869 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 1: we were doing that, we recovered the fifteenth body um 870 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,360 Speaker 1: and that that I think demonstrated that whatever this was, 871 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 1: this was a human tragedy and those are the people 872 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,520 Speaker 1: we needed to worry about, their friends, their relatives. And 873 00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,720 Speaker 1: then what happened. So at the press conference, I remember 874 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,320 Speaker 1: being advised by everybody to say nothing, and I said, 875 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,800 Speaker 1: how can you possibly do that? And so I said, 876 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,200 Speaker 1: we're responsible and we'll take care of this, but right 877 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: now we need to worry about the people who have 878 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: been killed and the people who have been hurt. And 879 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,000 Speaker 1: so we worked diligently through this and we solved it. 880 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,760 Speaker 1: And what where money could make a difference, we did. 881 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,320 Speaker 1: We solved it very quickly. We paid people appropriately. I 882 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,920 Speaker 1: believe the terrible tragedy they were involved in and it 883 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,320 Speaker 1: was our fault, you know, and so we um we 884 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 1: learned a lesson, And I think the lesson I learned was, 885 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: you know, however you look at a company, you should 886 00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,840 Speaker 1: always look at its weakest link. You can't say it's 887 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,280 Speaker 1: about right. It's not about right when it comes to safety. 888 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 1: And it was very clear that we hadn't integrated this 889 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,360 Speaker 1: part of the company properly. Was this refinery and it 890 00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 1: was acquisition is part of an amacho, but it could 891 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,600 Speaker 1: have been anywhere, um and it wasn't integrated, and it 892 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,880 Speaker 1: actually had equipment in it that took too much skill 893 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,800 Speaker 1: to operate. You know, we should have had and that 894 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 1: was the problem, too much skill and the person operating 895 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: it probably didn't have enough skill. But that was probably 896 00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,320 Speaker 1: an unrealistic standard to apply that they need to be 897 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 1: more modern equipment and we should have known better. So 898 00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,680 Speaker 1: I think that was the point, uh, And it changed 899 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 1: dramatically the way we thought about safety. It really did. 900 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:29,480 Speaker 1: We we prided ourselves with about safety keeping people safe, 901 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:34,320 Speaker 1: but what we hadn't really deeply got was the fact 902 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: that all equipment becomes unsafe and must be looked at 903 00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:43,160 Speaker 1: at all times to make sure it gets stay safe. 904 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:45,640 Speaker 1: And that's what we learned, and I think it's what 905 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,480 Speaker 1: everybody now learns. It's it's the big lesson of how 906 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: you keep processes safe as well as people safe. Quite interesting. 907 00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,920 Speaker 1: So I have to ask one last question before I 908 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:03,080 Speaker 1: get to my favorite questions, which is, you're an engineer. 909 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 1: You're a large embracer of science and scientific methods. Today 910 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: there seems to be a deep distrust of science, whether 911 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,960 Speaker 1: it's anti vax ER's or climate change denihilis. There are 912 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: even some flat earthers out there, which I'm astonished at. 913 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: What are we to make of this rejection of science 914 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,040 Speaker 1: which has given us all the benefits of of the 915 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,880 Speaker 1: modern world. People don't trust experts. They trust people like themselves. 916 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: If there are people around who have a big, loud voice, 917 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,400 Speaker 1: then trust goes in the wrong direction. We need to 918 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,920 Speaker 1: do more. It's a it's a banal statement, but it's true. 919 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: We need to do more in education. We've got to 920 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:54,720 Speaker 1: get people always thinking that they need to test the facts. 921 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,040 Speaker 1: They need to test and go and search for the 922 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,320 Speaker 1: best answer, and then I think we'll get some better 923 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,760 Speaker 1: appreciation of why science and engineering is so important. So 924 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,720 Speaker 1: education is very important. I think we should publicize more, 925 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,400 Speaker 1: much more about how how does engineering actually work? How 926 01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: does science actually create something? How do we know something safe? Why? 927 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,360 Speaker 1: Why is there the f d A there? You know, 928 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 1: it was a great invention, right, the poison squad and 929 01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,640 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing in the olden days tremendous 930 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,880 Speaker 1: to create trust. So we need to reinstill with people 931 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,280 Speaker 1: the purpose of these organizations, the purpose of standards. I 932 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: think it's requires a very big effort to do that. 933 01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 1: We've taken it for granted and as a result people 934 01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,680 Speaker 1: have ignored it. So the profits of the book go 935 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:56,000 Speaker 1: to the John Brown Charitable Trust. Tell us what the 936 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 1: trust focuses on and the areas you're emphasizing. So the 937 01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:03,600 Speaker 1: trust started its life a long time ago in honor 938 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:08,040 Speaker 1: of my mother to educate women at Cambridge who had 939 01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:13,960 Speaker 1: come from a broken human rights background, displace people from 940 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:20,480 Speaker 1: former Yugoslavia, for example, um Hungarians who were not settled properly. 941 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,400 Speaker 1: The list went on, but now it does education broadly. 942 01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,480 Speaker 1: It tries to do the things nobody else will do. 943 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to compete with governments and 944 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,640 Speaker 1: with MacArthur Foundation and with you know, the Gates and 945 01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,880 Speaker 1: people like that. But I can do things. I can 946 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,720 Speaker 1: fill gaps, which we do and then it supports the 947 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:46,160 Speaker 1: arts as well. So that's what it's doing. It's building 948 01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:49,600 Speaker 1: up its strength. I wanted to be around for a 949 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,400 Speaker 1: long time. It'll probably it's got a outlived me. Of 950 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,880 Speaker 1: course it does. And as a result I've got some 951 01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,720 Speaker 1: quite young trustees which I'm much approof of. But it's 952 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,120 Speaker 1: it's it's doing things that other people don't do, and 953 01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,680 Speaker 1: that's I think very important, quite quite interesting. So I 954 01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,720 Speaker 1: know I only have you for a few minutes before 955 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,960 Speaker 1: you have to move on to your next event. Let 956 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,840 Speaker 1: me ask you some of our favorite questions we ask 957 01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,160 Speaker 1: all our guests. We'll start with an easy one. Tell 958 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,280 Speaker 1: us the first car you owned? Year, make and model. 959 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,480 Speaker 1: So the first car I owned was a Feat six hundred. 960 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,320 Speaker 1: It was I bought it in nineteen sixty six, when 961 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,240 Speaker 1: I was eighteen. I think by that time it was 962 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,440 Speaker 1: already six years old, and it kind of blew up 963 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:43,160 Speaker 1: when on a trip to London the engine block crashed. 964 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,280 Speaker 1: So it was a great car. It was very cheap 965 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,560 Speaker 1: and it was great thrill a D eighteen to have 966 01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 1: your own car. Tell Us, uh, who your early mentors are? 967 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:57,240 Speaker 1: Who helped shape your career? So in BP it was 968 01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:04,240 Speaker 1: the latent great Dr Frank rick Would, a Australian geologist. 969 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:08,840 Speaker 1: He joined BP having been the head of the Dean 970 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,200 Speaker 1: of Geological Sciences at the University of New South Wales. 971 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: He's Australian and he clearly was a great influence in 972 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, vigor, how do you do things rigorously? How 973 01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 1: do you actually understand to apply what you the science 974 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,640 Speaker 1: and engineering to actual business problems. He was a great mentor. 975 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:37,360 Speaker 1: I think Andy Grove, who was active on the board 976 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 1: of Intel when I was there, also a great mentor. 977 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,000 Speaker 1: I learned a lot from him on how do you 978 01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:48,360 Speaker 1: actually really do strategy? How do you think about competitors 979 01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,160 Speaker 1: and what you do to survive? You know only the 980 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,400 Speaker 1: paranoids of Ie and Andy taught me absolutely that that 981 01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 1: was true. So let's since you mentioned Groves book, let's 982 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,040 Speaker 1: talk about books. What are What are some of your 983 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:06,560 Speaker 1: favorite books? What books had a big influence on you? 984 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,400 Speaker 1: So I have so many I think i've but by 985 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,880 Speaker 1: the way, this is the question people tell me. Keep 986 01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,280 Speaker 1: asking people about books. I get great recommendations from your guests. 987 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,640 Speaker 1: So I m so Over the summer I read a 988 01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: lot of books and to really stand out. The first 989 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,439 Speaker 1: is an English translation of a French book by Eric 990 01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,840 Speaker 1: Rihard called The Orders of the Day. It's a short 991 01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 1: book and it starts on the twentieth of February thirty three, 992 01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 1: when national Socialism invited in the heads of all the 993 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:47,840 Speaker 1: German big companies to offer them assistance in return for support, 994 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:53,520 Speaker 1: and the story develops from there. It's air raising and 995 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,960 Speaker 1: it's very short and brilliantly read written. Brilliantly written. I 996 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,200 Speaker 1: can't recommend it highly enough mm hmm Orders of the 997 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,200 Speaker 1: Day or by Eric van v v u I double 998 01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,320 Speaker 1: L A r D. It won the pre Gone Corps 999 01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:13,560 Speaker 1: in French and in France has recently been translated. I 1000 01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,000 Speaker 1: would expect it's a very well written book. I would 1001 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 1: expect the French to be quite impenetrable, and as you're 1002 01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,640 Speaker 1: a very good French reader. The other book. I've have 1003 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:28,280 Speaker 1: a friend of mine in Venice, where I live part time, Italy, 1004 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:33,520 Speaker 1: called Donna Leon. She she's a mystery writer, a detective 1005 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,040 Speaker 1: story writer, and she's written the same as she's written 1006 01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:41,080 Speaker 1: about the same detective Commissario Bernetti and his family. I 1007 01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:45,919 Speaker 1: think for twenty five or thirty years, one book a year. Interestingly, 1008 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,200 Speaker 1: they never age, but everybody else starts around them. She 1009 01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,800 Speaker 1: recently wrote a book which became in my Moon not 1010 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:59,360 Speaker 1: no longer a detective story, but a novel um called 1011 01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:05,640 Speaker 1: unto Our The Sun is given remarkable book, remarkable worth 1012 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,360 Speaker 1: I think reading for the simple reason that it's about 1013 01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:14,760 Speaker 1: human frailty and about why loneliness really does get to 1014 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:19,880 Speaker 1: people who cannot have a family and the consequences of that. 1015 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:24,800 Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary book, actually quite extraordinary, and this is 1016 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,120 Speaker 1: a big issue both in the UK and the US, 1017 01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: the rise of loneliness, which some studies have found to 1018 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: be the equivalent of smoking it back a cigarette a 1019 01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:37,720 Speaker 1: day exactly, and it also leads to very bad judgments 1020 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,919 Speaker 1: because there's nobody to bounce it off, and you can 1021 01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,160 Speaker 1: always hire people to give you advice, but the moment 1022 01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:50,560 Speaker 1: you hire someone, you've hired them, and the advice is 1023 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,160 Speaker 1: not necessarily what you want tell us about a time 1024 01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 1: you've failed and what you learned from the experience. So 1025 01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,000 Speaker 1: certainly the biggest failure in my professional life would BP 1026 01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,880 Speaker 1: was the Texas City tragedy, and I think it taught 1027 01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: me a lot about making sure that you you don't 1028 01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 1: take things for granted and you don't get carried away 1029 01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:18,280 Speaker 1: with necessarily what people are saying. You check, you double 1030 01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:23,280 Speaker 1: check when it comes to things which are existential, and 1031 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,080 Speaker 1: I think that was, in my mind, a very big failure, 1032 01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:30,800 Speaker 1: very big failure. I think the second big failure was 1033 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:35,479 Speaker 1: the areas of judgment I made with before I was outed, 1034 01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,760 Speaker 1: both in the way in which I told a lie 1035 01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 1: in a in a witness statement. And the mere fact 1036 01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:48,679 Speaker 1: that I I, in order to hide away um fell 1037 01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,200 Speaker 1: hard and escort and thought it was a relationship could 1038 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,839 Speaker 1: possibly be. So I think those things were very big 1039 01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:03,280 Speaker 1: failures of judgment error, and I've learned a lot from them. 1040 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,160 Speaker 1: I can think of plenty of others, but they're smaller. 1041 01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:10,040 Speaker 1: What do you do for fun when you're not reading 1042 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:14,800 Speaker 1: or writing books? So I still have traveled for the 1043 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,639 Speaker 1: whole of my life. You know, I was born outside 1044 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,920 Speaker 1: the UK. I've spent my teenage years traveling. I think 1045 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,679 Speaker 1: I was one of the first jets set kids because 1046 01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:29,680 Speaker 1: I was transported back to the UK from iran uh 1047 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,680 Speaker 1: and Singapore to go to school. So I still like 1048 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:36,920 Speaker 1: going to places I haven't been to. I've been that 1049 01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:41,599 Speaker 1: they're diminishing number. But I also live in Venice, Italy, 1050 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,120 Speaker 1: where I adore it. I find it's a it's it's 1051 01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,960 Speaker 1: such an unlikely place. It's a floating city, very sensitive, 1052 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:54,439 Speaker 1: very extraordinary. People say killed by tourists. I don't agree. 1053 01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,080 Speaker 1: The tourists. They come in and they leave, and in 1054 01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,280 Speaker 1: the morning and the evening vene see is yours? And 1055 01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,479 Speaker 1: and who who are we to say that? People can't 1056 01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,559 Speaker 1: see what we enjoy. We can't do that very much 1057 01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:10,559 Speaker 1: threats by climate change, very much critain by climate change. 1058 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,599 Speaker 1: There's a big barrage being built, a very complex piece 1059 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,880 Speaker 1: of engineering should hopefully be ready next year or the 1060 01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,360 Speaker 1: year after. So I enjoy those sorts of things. I 1061 01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:26,360 Speaker 1: enjoy making sure my keeping fit and I enjoy but 1062 01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:30,280 Speaker 1: most of all, I enjoyed the arts. So I've been 1063 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,839 Speaker 1: you know, I've been a deputy chairman of the British Museum, 1064 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,680 Speaker 1: chairman of the Tate Galleries, and I am chairman of 1065 01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,200 Speaker 1: the court Old Institute of Art. I adore those activities. 1066 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,000 Speaker 1: I adore the theater. I'm chairman of the theater group 1067 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,320 Speaker 1: called the don Mar Warehouse Theater. And I endored the opera. 1068 01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:50,439 Speaker 1: I always go to festivals like the Salzburg Festival and 1069 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,240 Speaker 1: set up by you know, I'm not set up, but 1070 01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,960 Speaker 1: made of course the headlines. When carry On was alive, 1071 01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:02,040 Speaker 1: I saw some fantastic productions over my life, and this 1072 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:07,479 Speaker 1: particularly this summer. So and I enjoy people. I I 1073 01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:11,000 Speaker 1: always think my late mother always said to me it's 1074 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,800 Speaker 1: very important to talk to people, and the best way 1075 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,479 Speaker 1: to talk to people is invite them. For dinner, and 1076 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 1: she said, and here's what you do. Number one, it's 1077 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,880 Speaker 1: most important to have the right people, interesting people, and 1078 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:27,360 Speaker 1: a mix. Number two have a great table and by 1079 01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,920 Speaker 1: that make it look beautiful. Number three have great wine, 1080 01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,320 Speaker 1: and number four maybe have some food. She said, In 1081 01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:38,320 Speaker 1: that order you can have a great time. That that 1082 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:42,320 Speaker 1: sounds like some some good advice. Um. Speaking of advice, 1083 01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,519 Speaker 1: if a recent college grad came to you and said 1084 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,680 Speaker 1: they were considering a career in the energy industry, what 1085 01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,920 Speaker 1: sort of advice might you give them, I would say, 1086 01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,959 Speaker 1: go into the energy industry because there are so many challenges, 1087 01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,680 Speaker 1: so still to be solved. We have to replace energy. 1088 01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,439 Speaker 1: Over the life I'm of a new graduate. You know, 1089 01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:06,519 Speaker 1: the energy mix will change dramatically. So it's a an 1090 01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,880 Speaker 1: and it is, of course the most important motor of civilization. 1091 01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,080 Speaker 1: Without energy, nothing can be done. I know people look 1092 01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:19,320 Speaker 1: at their iPhone and say, gosh, that's working in here. 1093 01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:24,599 Speaker 1: Actually it's working in the cloud. And the cloud is 1094 01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:31,400 Speaker 1: tons and tons of hardware using a vast amount of electricity. 1095 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:35,120 Speaker 1: And so remember that's what we need, and that's a 1096 01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:39,160 Speaker 1: very important part of civilization. And in our final question, 1097 01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,040 Speaker 1: what is it that you know about the world of 1098 01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:47,519 Speaker 1: energy today that you wish you knew fifty years ago 1099 01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:51,280 Speaker 1: when you were first starting out the environmental impact. I 1100 01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: wish I knew more about the environmental impact when I started. 1101 01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,200 Speaker 1: I could see a bit of it. I kept wondering why, 1102 01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, when I when I was working in Alaska, 1103 01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:06,280 Speaker 1: you could you flew in by helicopter and or plane 1104 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:10,599 Speaker 1: and you could see tracing of the on the perma 1105 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:13,840 Speaker 1: frost when it melted in the summer. And that was 1106 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,240 Speaker 1: because people had just dragged equipment across the perma frost 1107 01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:22,320 Speaker 1: without protecting it and in some cases actually dynamited uh 1108 01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, bits of it, and so they've made big ponds. 1109 01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,080 Speaker 1: I was one of why people did that. And I 1110 01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:33,600 Speaker 1: remember also learning a lot when you know, the Translaska 1111 01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:39,040 Speaker 1: pipeline system was not built for both environmental and native rights, 1112 01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,280 Speaker 1: and it was only past eventually with a lot of 1113 01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:50,960 Speaker 1: compromise in these areas, correct compromise with Spiro t Agnew 1114 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:55,639 Speaker 1: casting the vote in the Senate. I remember that very 1115 01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:01,160 Speaker 1: well because we were waiting around in Anchoring, Alaska the 1116 01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:05,880 Speaker 1: North Slope and in New York waiting UH for approval 1117 01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:10,120 Speaker 1: to get to our business, and at one point there 1118 01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,800 Speaker 1: was almost no money to pass. Wow, it was quite interesting, 1119 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,200 Speaker 1: quite quite fascinating. Thank you so much, John for being 1120 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,800 Speaker 1: so generous with your time. We have been speaking with 1121 01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,799 Speaker 1: Sir John Brown, former CEO of British Petroleum and author 1122 01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:29,880 Speaker 1: most recently of Make Think, Imagine Engineering the Future of Civilization. 1123 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:33,679 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this conversation, well be sure and look 1124 01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,360 Speaker 1: up an Inch or down an Inch on Apple iTunes 1125 01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,160 Speaker 1: and you can see any of the previous let's call 1126 01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,280 Speaker 1: it two hundred and sixty or so such conversations we've 1127 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,559 Speaker 1: had over the past five years. We love your comments, 1128 01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:49,839 Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast 1129 01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,880 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. Go to Apple iTunes and give 1130 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,800 Speaker 1: us a lovely review. I would be remiss if I 1131 01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:58,439 Speaker 1: did not thank the crack staff who helps put together 1132 01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:02,679 Speaker 1: this podcast tasket each week. My audio engineer this week 1133 01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,040 Speaker 1: is Nicholas Falco. My producer is Michael Boyle. Our project 1134 01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,240 Speaker 1: manager is Zatika val Brun. My head of research is 1135 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,200 Speaker 1: Michael bat Nick. I'm Barry Retults. You've been listening to 1136 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:16,719 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio