WEBVTT - The Saga of Silk Road 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:11.400 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.240 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.080 and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.840 all about the Dark Web and all the crazy crazy 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:23.920 drugs and him men. You can buy on it. 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:28.040 Sorry, I was still doing my vocal warm ups. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.360 I didn't know that that helps. What does that help? 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.760 Why twenty dwarfs took turns doing push ups in the lawn. 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:42.440 I'm ready, okay, okay, Well, so welcome to the podcast, everybody. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.080 I figured it should start warming up. You know, seventeen 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.199 years into this eighteen? How long you sixteen? 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.800 So yeah, sixteen ish, a little over sixteen coming up 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:53.520 on seventeen. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.320 Chuck, just wait till you hear the way my lips 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.600 move in this episode. They're so loose. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.720 So did you loosen your lips up? Just specifically, because 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.920 the content of this episode is so thrilling. 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.000 I authought you can say something about sinking ships. No, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:11.880 I didn't, but this is a good one. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:12.080 This. 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.920 Yeah, if everyone heard our episode in the Dark Web 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.000 from twenty twenty, some of this will be familiar. But 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.080 this is just more in depth about the Notoriou. Yeah, 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.280 Silk Road itself, Yeah for sure. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.200 Yeah, And we were talking about Silk Road for those 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:30.839 view history buffs Middle Eastern history buffs who were disappointed. Sorry, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.440 but you should stick around because this is going to 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:33.880 be a pretty interesting episode. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.440 I didn't think about that. When are they going to 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:36.320 talk about cinnamon? 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.760 We did a whole episode on cinnamon, So relax there, guy. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:43.479 Yeah. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.480 So you know, we're talking about what is widely considered 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:52.320 because I think it is the world's first illicit marketplace 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.840 on the Internet that was opened in twenty eleven shut 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.800 down in twenty thirteen. It had a very very brief run, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.640 was like the Beatles of illicit drug trading websites, and 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.560 it's legend will live on for basically forever because not 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.359 only was it just the most audacious thing anyone had 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.920 ever done on the Internet as far as anyone knew 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.240 up to that point, it created a blueprint for a 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.919 bunch of imitators to come, and also the way everything 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:29.320 that law enforcement through at this case and the court 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:33.679 case as well, it was just so nuts that it's 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.360 just a heck of a story. How about that Brownie. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.680 That's great, boy. There were fifteen filthy jokes. I was 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.360 going to say, when you said the most outrageous thing 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.320 anyone had done on the Internet up and to that point, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.400 I was like I had a rolling terminator, like scroll 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.840 about all the early internet nasty memes that would go around. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:54.679 You couldn't pick any of them. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.400 No, I just didn't want to say any of them 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.160 out loud because then kids would look them up. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.880 I gotcha. Yeah, I was wondering, and we probably should 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.040 have talked about this before we recorded. Are we gonna 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:09.920 like call out any active sites or anything like that? Nah, okay, 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.280 because I know some I looked him up. 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:15.520 Hey, just Texas. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.880 To me, it's fine, okay. So let's start from the start, right. 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.400 We're gonna start with a guy named Ross Olbricht, And 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.200 the reason we're introducing him early on is because he 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.200 is the mastermind behind silk Row. It was his idea, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.480 he built it originally, He ran the thing by hand, 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:39.000 almost single handedly, for a very long time, and you 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.720 just really can't talk about Silkrow without him, because his 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.720 personality was so wrapped up into the ethos of the 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.520 site that you can't really extract one from the other. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.520 Despite the fact that while he was sitting in federal court. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.360 He really wished that they would extract one from the other. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.640 Yeah, big thanks to Kyle, first of all our friend 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.760 and can tributing writer from across the Pond for his 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.960 work on this. But Kyle's keen to point out just 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.880 a little bit about the dark Web. You know, we 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.800 have a whole episode from twenty twenty if you want 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:11.720 to go listen to that. But if you don't know 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:13.440 what the dark web is, it's a part of the 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.839 web where you can go and do things anonymously. And 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.440 that's just a you know, the simplest way to say it. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.640 It's much more complicated than that, obviously if we did 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.240 a whole episode, but it's where you can go if 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.440 you don't want to be indexed by Google, if you 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:30.160 don't want your traffic monitored, and if you want your 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.520 anonymity insured. Doesn't necessarily mean you're some awful person doing 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.039 awful things. There's a lot of people there that just 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.240 believe in in the freedom and anonymity that you should 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:42.400 have on the Internet. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.200 Yeah. Also, yes, for sure, some people are just like, 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.039 there's no reason for you to be invading my privacy. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.520 While I'm reading The Guardian or something like that. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.080 Right, Yeah, just to sell me stuff exactly. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.479 That's part of it for sure too. And then also 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:01.040 other people are like they have they might be whistleblowers 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.720 and they have information that they could very easily get 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:05.840 them thrown in prison. But it's really important to get 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.560 out to the public. There's sites like pro Publica and 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:13.120 other journalists that have dark web sites to where you 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.880 can submit information, and even Pro public it doesn't know 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:20.280 who you are. And with silk Roads specifically, there were 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.560 three things that came together that made Silk Road exists, 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.240 and without any of them, I don't think it would 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.919 have ever existed. One was who I already introduced, Ross Olbrick. 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:35.800 The second is Tour, the Tour network, which basically when 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.719 you go onto the dark web using Tour, the first 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.680 thing it does is route you through three different random servers, 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.880 and each one encrypts your information and gives you a 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.960 new IP address, so no one can figure out who 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.000 you are, including the website you visit. And then the 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.360 third thing is bitcoin. There's just no way you could 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.080 have made transactions on drug deals over the Internet without 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.839 untraceable currency that doesn't involved like a central bank or 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.160 some other third party like. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.360 That, Yeah, for sure. And you know, Bitcoin was huge 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.640 because it was they were good for each other, Like 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.640 Ross Olbricht sort of embraced bitcoin in a big way, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.320 which even though it was on the dark web, and 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.640 even though Silk Road was you know, as you'll soon learn, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:25.040 dabbling and illegal drug trading, they use bitcoin exclusively. So 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.120 the rise of bitcoin and the rise of you know, 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.640 things on the dark web kind of go hand in hand. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.839 Yes, for sure. And this is also a time where, 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.039 like the early twenty ten, this was in like disruptive 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.000 technology was just coming out left and right from Silicon Valley, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.760 whereas like well, say goodbye to newspapers, say goodbye to 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.600 printed books, say goodbye to music. And I mean, it 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.000 did have disruptive effects, but as we've seen, it still 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.520 kind of mellows out. It's not like the original thing 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.479 just totally goes away. But this was that same time. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.240 So a lot of people have likened ross Olbricks to 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.719 basically a darker version, if there is such a thing 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.320 of some of those Silicon Valley bros who started up 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.480 a lot of those disruptive tech companies. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.200 Yeah, and you know what, I think we need to 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:22.280 add a fourth on our Silk Road Mount Rushmore, because 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.240 we have to mention Adrian chen who in twenty eleven, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:31.240 when the Silk Road went live, wrote for Gawker and 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.240 wrote this big expose on the Silk Road just a 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.520 few months later, including like how to get there, what 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.480 you can do there? And it would have been a 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.520 thing anyway, but the fact that it was kind of 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.080 exploded on Gawker made it bigger quicker than it would have. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.560 Been, I think, right, And that also brought it to 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:55.080 the attention of the authorities pretty quickly. Chuck Schumer, Yeah, Chucky. 0:07:56.040 --> 0:08:01.080 He basically came out against it first, I think so 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:02.920 now the Senate was against it. He said it was 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.760 a certifiable one stop shop for illegal drugs that represents 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.480 the most brazen attempt to pedal drugs online that we 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:10.360 have ever seen. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.440 And they went, yeah, exactly, Yeah, you nailed it. 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.320 Yeah right. And so because of that tour network, and 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.640 because of just the anonymity of bitcoin and the fact 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.640 that people were drug dealers and drug users engaging in 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:28.360 illicit crime over the Internet, like there was a sense 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.320 like it doesn't matter, like the government can't find any 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.440 of these people. If they do, it's just random luck, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.840 like say intercepting a drug shipment in the mail. But 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.200 if you're really trying to track somebody down who's a 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.560 user of Silk Road, You're just not going to be 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:46.880 able to do it. There was just a sense of 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.560 security and safety that people had when they were using it, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.240 including Ross Olbricht. 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.080 Yeah, and they also were pretty smart early on. Our 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.360 guess Olbricht was by making it a familiar shopping online 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.719 shopping experience. It I mean I never saw it. I 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.079 think I managed to find some like screenshots and stuff, 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.240 but it supposedly looked and operated much like any other 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.240 e retailer. You would go on there and you would 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.200 have your little shopping basket and you would have your 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.520 items that you could you know, are all categorize and 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.079 listed that you could sip through, and you could look 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.679 at customer reviews and uh, you know, I'm sure there 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.679 were bad deals that went down, but supposedly it was. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.680 It worked because the people selling the drugs believe that 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.800 you should really sell the thing that you're trying to 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:39.760 sell and you'll stay in business. 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.920 Right just like if you're a a like you have 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.120 terrible customer service and you're selling like. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.080 Which it's sure. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.000 I was thinking like some sort of sown strawberry potholder, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.040 something in the shape of a strawberry, so much better 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.000 than a wedget. But you tell all of your customers 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.320 who say, like it's the the stitchings coming loose, that 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.079 they can go to hell and die. Yeah, you're gonna 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.360 get a bad rating and people are gonna stop buying 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.120 from you, especially if there's other people selling sewn strawberry potholders. Right, 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.319 same thing, if you're selling drugs on Silk Road. There 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.280 were a ton of people selling pot and acid and 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.920 ecstasy and heroin and cocaine that like, you just didn't 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.520 have to rely on just one dealer. So the dealers 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.840 were competing with one another, and to compete they just 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.520 tried to keep their user rating up as best as 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.520 possible and that kept them honest. It's just nuts, Like 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:40.880 this whole thing in theory should have collapsed on day one. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.600 It just should never have worked out because it was 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.920 just based on so many faulty assumptions that just happened 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.200 to come together and support this site until the FED 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:51.880 shut it down. 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.800 Yeah, they had a seller's guide where if you're going 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:57.520 to sell your drugs. They would say, hey, here's how 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.640 to do that. Here's how you can ship drugs through 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.760 the mail, you know, pretty safely, vacuum ceiling and all, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.360 you know, all kinds of tips and tricks, and not 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.120 that many packages supposedly were intercepted, a very small percentage 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.280 of them. But you mentioned some of the things in 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.719 your I thought you were singing that Queens of the 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.400 Stone Age song there for a second. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:18.760 Which one when you heard that. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:20.240 I don't know if they had that one song that 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.520 was I thought it was not so great. Cocaine and 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.880 ecstasy and blah blah blah blah blah, and they were 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.520 just like rattling off drugs or whatever. 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:29.240 That didn't sound very great. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.360 No, it wasn't one of their best songs. I was 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:32.360 into them for a minute. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.320 I'd like that one hit song of theirs. It's really good. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.480 No one knows maybe yes, yes, the one man, I know. 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.800 It's a good song. Uh yeah. So you could buy 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.720 anything you want. And it wasn't just like, hey, here's 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.240 some cocaine if you're interested in this upper. It was 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.400 very very specific stuff like a very specific strain of 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:00.840 Colombian cocaine or a very specific strain of heroin, the 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.120 tar heroin that you could find, you know, if you've 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:08.040 ever been to a legal cannabis shop in any of 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.560 the states that allow that here in the US, it 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.320 was sort of like that. You know, you get very 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.960 detailed descriptions of stuff, and you know, you could have 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.680 a customer service representative help you find what you wanted, 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.480 and it was like, if you were into that kind 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.440 of thing, it was probably pretty great for you and 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.800 probably much safer than going to some drug dealer's house. Maybe, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:28.240 I don't know. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:30.880 That's a big deal. So one of the things that 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.280 was touted by supporters of ross Olbrichton Silk Road was 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.960 that it was a site for harm reduction. Yeah, that 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.320 it was so vastly safer than buying drugs on the street, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.880 often from some randow you don't even know, or at 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.120 a club or something like that. Oh, yeah, I state 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.920 that it just yeah, that it was actually providing a 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.839 service that actually made the world safer. It didn't fly 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.640 very well, as we'll see, but that was that was 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.559 a big, a big talking point for them. 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.920 Yeah, And I don't want anyone to misinterpret that. I'm 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:02.719 saying that, like, hey, you should just be able to 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.800 buy drugs in the mail and it's totally safe and 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.400 you should trust that. But they seem to be setting 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.560 up a situation where they were trying to ensure that 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.560 there was a lot of trust between buyers, sellers, everybody. Like, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.000 a situation like this doesn't happen if there's not trust 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.040 between all the participating parties. 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:27.040 Precisely, Yeah, for sure. I Yeah, it's just it's just 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.120 crazy to me that it ever worked. Should we take 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.240 a break, Yeah, let's take a break and we'll come 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.400 back and talk about some of the nuts and bolts 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:33.920 of the whole thing. 0:13:33.960 --> 0:14:00.320 All right, we'll be right back. So you've mentioned this guy, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.400 Ross Olbrecht, the founder and creator. We need to talk 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.520 a little bit about this dude. He went by the 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:12.800 alias dread Pirate Roberts, even though later in his defense 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.160 that would be it would be brought up that there 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.560 were like many dread Pirate Roberts over the years, and 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.400 that he sold it at one point and wasn't even 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.320 involved anymore. If you follow the court case, it gets 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:24.440 really really in the weeds. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.280 Yes, quote in court was do you not know the 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.320 dread Pirate Roberts reference? 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.160 Right? Yeah, they were like, why would you name yourself that? 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:34.000 Right? 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.280 And he said, have you never seen the Princess Bride? 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.960 Yes, for the people who haven't seen the Prince's Bride, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.880 number one, go see the Prince's Pride, and number two, 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.200 dred Pirate Roberts was the name of a well pirate 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.120 who was essentially like a character that different people over 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.640 the years and generations inhabited. So say, dread Pilot Roberts 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.400 was two hundred years old because he was made up 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.720 of successive pirates who wore that mask and used that name. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.360 Yeah, for sure. So Ulbrich had a very very smart guy. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.120 As a very smart guy, he had a Bachelor of 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.960 Science in physics, got his master's in material science and engineering, 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.640 and was in Austin, Texas in two thousand and nine 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:18.400 when he tried a few different initial companies. Basically he 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.520 had a video game company tried. He found the most 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:26.680 success with a second hand book retailer called good Wagon Books, 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.720 where he kind of learned how to do web development 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.720 and inventory management and e retailing, kind of a starter 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.880 kit for what he would need to start Silk Road, 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.400 but it still wasn't making the kind of dough he 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.960 wanted to make I think they were pulling in maybe 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.240 low six figures in a year. 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.680 Yeah. Yeah, And he had like five employees sorting like 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.280 fifty thousand books and not bad. They were selling them 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.360 on Amazon like you do, like you can buy use 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.960 books on Amazon. That's just what they did. But his 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.480 heart wasn't in it. And after the show elves that 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.760 he had built in this warehouse to hold the books 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:03.720 all collapsed. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:05.840 He was like, I'm not. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.640 Going to pick those up. I'm just gonna set this 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.520 warehouse on fire and walk away. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.680 That's really funny. That sounds like something. 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.440 I would do. I would do the same thing. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:15.960 I wouldn't say it on fire and walk away, but 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:16.720 I just walk away. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.480 So he One of the other reasons he was keen 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.760 to walk away is he'd been already thinking about Silk 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.080 Road for close to a year by now. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:25.400 Yeah. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.800 And one of the things that really kind of spurred 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:33.320 his interest in creating something like an online illicit drug 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:38.800 sale website is that he became interested in libertarian theory, 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:44.520 specifically libertarian economic theory, which is basically that if you 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.360 don't have economic freedom in particular, you're going to be 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.880 a slave to the grind. They've got you essentially, and 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.320 that to you can either get rich and remove yourself 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.800 from that game or that rat race, or you can 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.960 try to change the rule of the game and make 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.480 it much more fair and equitable and get rid of 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.960 coercion and all that stuff. And it's all based on 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.440 the libertarian philosophy of self ownership, which essentially explains itself. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.240 Yeah, he I don't know, explain it. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.840 Oh, well, you own yourself. So any kind of laws 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:24.040 or prohibitions of anything that say you do to yourself, say, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:30.920 taking drugs, is just completely outrageous and immoral and is illegitimate. Okay, 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:38.359 So drug laws specifically are illegitimate and terrible to libertarians 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:42.600 because you're taking the drugs for yourself, and that's your choice, right, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.520 It's personal choice. So that really kind of explains a 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.080 lot why he was like an illicit drug website. It 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.960 was a thumb in the eye to the drug laws 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.960 that he and other libertarians feel were illegitimate. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.880 All right, I'm glad asked Yeah, I'm glad. 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.520 You asked too, because I really wanted to get that 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:03.280 off my chest. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.000 So Silk Road grew. He started. It was not just 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:08.879 a one person operation. It was too big for that, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.800 so he needed some employees. These people all went by 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:18.160 these kind of fun little nicknames, including Variety Jones and 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:24.000 Nigo Oh also from Princess Bride. Yeah, didn't notice that 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.800 libertas Smed and then another one chronic pain one word 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.760 the first sea's capitalized, and that person's name was Curtis 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.760 Green and he was the first person that would be 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.959 arrested in the Silk Road operation. And so you'll just 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:41.200 you know, sort of put a pin in that. 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:46.960 Guy, Yes, for sure. So he gets the website launched 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.480 in twenty eleven around the beginning of twenty eleven, and 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.360 to get things kicked off, he started growing psilocybin mushrooms 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.080 so that there was something somebody was selling on Silk Road, 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.359 and pretty soon other people were like, wait, this is 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.760 you're really doing this, Like this is for real? I 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.280 want to I want to make money selling drugs online, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.080 and it just kind of took off from there. Again, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:16.120 without cryptocurrency, there just wouldn't have been a Silk Road. 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.680 And this is actually pointed to you by some people 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.720 as like an early proving ground that showed like yep, 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.720 bitcoin works, it does exactly what it says it can 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.919 do and it could completely revolutionize global the global economy. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.480 This was the first chance for it to really kind 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.520 of show it stuff, and it really did because it worked. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.919 And one of the other reasons it worked too, is 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:44.680 because ross Oldbert was honest. He hand I guess hand 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:50.080 transacted every transaction between seller and buyer on the site 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.960 for a while, and at that point he would hold 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.919 the money in escrow and then when the whole thing was, 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.159 when the deal was done and everybody was satisfied, you 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.920 would release the money to the seller. At any point 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.119 in that string, he could have been like, thanks for 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.159 the money, chumps, Thanks for the money, chumps, Thanks for 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.640 the money, chumps, and just taking off with the bitcoin, 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.360 and he didn't. And the reputation that that helped give 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.040 that site was another reason it started to grow and flourish. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.159 Yeah, for sure. So as the site is, you know, 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.359 kind of going along and it's making all kinds of 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.080 money and getting more and more popular or as popular 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.040 as something is on the dark web, he started getting 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:34.440 a little more political. Under his moniker DPR dread Pirate, 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:38.600 Roberts started making these big statements about just sort of 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.919 his philosophies about politics. He would say things like stop 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.359 funding the state with your tax dollars and direct your 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.280 productive energies into the black market. So it started sort 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.679 of bordering on manifesto kind of stuff. I think they 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:56.880 would have shut it down anyway, just because they were 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.840 dealing in illegal drugs. But the US government definitely hates 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:04.800 it when they don't like the word manifesto. So I 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.160 think I think all this other political stuff definitely drew 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.840 even more attention and ire maybe than it would happen. 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.639 Yeah, No, I think so. Like I said, it was 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.080 a thumb in the eye, and I think it kind 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.479 of felt like that to the government and the powers 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:19.320 that be, right. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.560 Yeah, thought he kind of thought, and he kind of 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:23.800 was leading a revolution in a lot of ways, because, 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:28.159 as we'll see later on, a lot of more sites 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:29.320 like this were born in its wake. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:35.920 Right, So it's interesting to see too, the evolution of 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:41.320 him going from a libertarian idealist to what the Fed's 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:46.320 eventually described as like the kingpin of a global drug cartel. Yeah, 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.760 really overblown, as we'll see. Yeah, but in the beginning, 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.720 he even as a libertarian, said dump there's limits here, 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:56.600 Like this is not just a free for all. You 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.359 can't have child pornography. You can't try to sell weapons 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:05.400 of mass destruction, you can't offer hitman services, sell stolen 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:09.119 credit cards or personal information, like, you just can't do that. 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.159 And if you scam anybody, we're gonna boot you off 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:12.880