1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know, 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: all about the Dark Web and all the crazy crazy 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: drugs and him men. You can buy on it. 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: Sorry, I was still doing my vocal warm ups. 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: I didn't know that that helps. What does that help? 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: Why twenty dwarfs took turns doing push ups in the lawn. 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm ready, okay, okay, Well, so welcome to the podcast, everybody. 10 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: I figured it should start warming up. You know, seventeen 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: years into this eighteen? How long you sixteen? 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, sixteen ish, a little over sixteen coming up 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: on seventeen. 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: Chuck, just wait till you hear the way my lips 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: move in this episode. They're so loose. 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: So did you loosen your lips up? Just specifically, because 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: the content of this episode is so thrilling. 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: I authought you can say something about sinking ships. No, 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: I didn't, but this is a good one. 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: This. 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, if everyone heard our episode in the Dark Web 22 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: from twenty twenty, some of this will be familiar. But 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: this is just more in depth about the Notoriou. Yeah, 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: Silk Road itself, Yeah for sure. 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And we were talking about Silk Road for those 26 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: view history buffs Middle Eastern history buffs who were disappointed. Sorry, 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: but you should stick around because this is going to 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: be a pretty interesting episode. 29 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: I didn't think about that. When are they going to 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: talk about cinnamon? 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: We did a whole episode on cinnamon, So relax there, guy. 32 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: So you know, we're talking about what is widely considered 34 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: because I think it is the world's first illicit marketplace 35 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: on the Internet that was opened in twenty eleven shut 36 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: down in twenty thirteen. It had a very very brief run, 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: was like the Beatles of illicit drug trading websites, and 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: it's legend will live on for basically forever because not 39 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: only was it just the most audacious thing anyone had 40 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: ever done on the Internet as far as anyone knew 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: up to that point, it created a blueprint for a 42 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: bunch of imitators to come, and also the way everything 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: that law enforcement through at this case and the court 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: case as well, it was just so nuts that it's 45 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: just a heck of a story. How about that Brownie. 46 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: That's great, boy. There were fifteen filthy jokes. I was 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: going to say, when you said the most outrageous thing 48 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: anyone had done on the Internet up and to that point, 49 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: I was like I had a rolling terminator, like scroll 50 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: about all the early internet nasty memes that would go around. 51 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: You couldn't pick any of them. 52 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: No, I just didn't want to say any of them 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: out loud because then kids would look them up. 54 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: I gotcha. Yeah, I was wondering, and we probably should 55 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: have talked about this before we recorded. Are we gonna 56 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: like call out any active sites or anything like that? Nah, okay, 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: because I know some I looked him up. 58 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: Hey, just Texas. 59 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: To me, it's fine, okay. So let's start from the start, right. 60 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: We're gonna start with a guy named Ross Olbricht, And 61 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: the reason we're introducing him early on is because he 62 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: is the mastermind behind silk Row. It was his idea, 63 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: he built it originally, He ran the thing by hand, 64 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: almost single handedly, for a very long time, and you 65 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: just really can't talk about Silkrow without him, because his 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: personality was so wrapped up into the ethos of the 67 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: site that you can't really extract one from the other. 68 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that while he was sitting in federal court. 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: He really wished that they would extract one from the other. 70 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, big thanks to Kyle, first of all our friend 71 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: and can tributing writer from across the Pond for his 72 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: work on this. But Kyle's keen to point out just 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: a little bit about the dark Web. You know, we 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: have a whole episode from twenty twenty if you want 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: to go listen to that. But if you don't know 76 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: what the dark web is, it's a part of the 77 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: web where you can go and do things anonymously. And 78 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: that's just a you know, the simplest way to say it. 79 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: It's much more complicated than that, obviously if we did 80 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: a whole episode, but it's where you can go if 81 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: you don't want to be indexed by Google, if you 82 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: don't want your traffic monitored, and if you want your 83 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: anonymity insured. Doesn't necessarily mean you're some awful person doing 84 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: awful things. There's a lot of people there that just 85 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: believe in in the freedom and anonymity that you should 86 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: have on the Internet. 87 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, yes, for sure, some people are just like, 88 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: there's no reason for you to be invading my privacy. 89 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: While I'm reading The Guardian or something like that. 90 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, just to sell me stuff exactly. 91 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: That's part of it for sure too. And then also 92 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: other people are like they have they might be whistleblowers 93 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: and they have information that they could very easily get 94 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: them thrown in prison. But it's really important to get 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: out to the public. There's sites like pro Publica and 96 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: other journalists that have dark web sites to where you 97 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: can submit information, and even Pro public it doesn't know 98 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: who you are. And with silk Roads specifically, there were 99 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: three things that came together that made Silk Road exists, 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: and without any of them, I don't think it would 101 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: have ever existed. One was who I already introduced, Ross Olbrick. 102 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: The second is Tour, the Tour network, which basically when 103 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: you go onto the dark web using Tour, the first 104 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: thing it does is route you through three different random servers, 105 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: and each one encrypts your information and gives you a 106 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: new IP address, so no one can figure out who 107 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: you are, including the website you visit. And then the 108 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: third thing is bitcoin. There's just no way you could 109 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: have made transactions on drug deals over the Internet without 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: untraceable currency that doesn't involved like a central bank or 111 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: some other third party like. 112 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, for sure. And you know, Bitcoin was huge 113 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: because it was they were good for each other, Like 114 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: Ross Olbricht sort of embraced bitcoin in a big way, 115 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: which even though it was on the dark web, and 116 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: even though Silk Road was you know, as you'll soon learn, 117 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: dabbling and illegal drug trading, they use bitcoin exclusively. So 118 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: the rise of bitcoin and the rise of you know, 119 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: things on the dark web kind of go hand in hand. 120 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: Yes, for sure. And this is also a time where, 121 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: like the early twenty ten, this was in like disruptive 122 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: technology was just coming out left and right from Silicon Valley, 123 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: whereas like well, say goodbye to newspapers, say goodbye to 124 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: printed books, say goodbye to music. And I mean, it 125 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: did have disruptive effects, but as we've seen, it still 126 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: kind of mellows out. It's not like the original thing 127 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: just totally goes away. But this was that same time. 128 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: So a lot of people have likened ross Olbricks to 129 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: basically a darker version, if there is such a thing 130 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: of some of those Silicon Valley bros who started up 131 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: a lot of those disruptive tech companies. 132 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, I think we need to 133 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: add a fourth on our Silk Road Mount Rushmore, because 134 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: we have to mention Adrian chen who in twenty eleven, 135 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: when the Silk Road went live, wrote for Gawker and 136 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: wrote this big expose on the Silk Road just a 137 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: few months later, including like how to get there, what 138 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: you can do there? And it would have been a 139 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: thing anyway, but the fact that it was kind of 140 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: exploded on Gawker made it bigger quicker than it would have. 141 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: Been, I think, right, And that also brought it to 142 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: the attention of the authorities pretty quickly. Chuck Schumer, Yeah, Chucky. 143 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: He basically came out against it first, I think so 144 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: now the Senate was against it. He said it was 145 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: a certifiable one stop shop for illegal drugs that represents 146 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: the most brazen attempt to pedal drugs online that we 147 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: have ever seen. 148 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: And they went, yeah, exactly, Yeah, you nailed it. 149 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah right. And so because of that tour network, and 150 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: because of just the anonymity of bitcoin and the fact 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: that people were drug dealers and drug users engaging in 152 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: illicit crime over the Internet, like there was a sense 153 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: like it doesn't matter, like the government can't find any 154 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: of these people. If they do, it's just random luck, 155 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: like say intercepting a drug shipment in the mail. But 156 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: if you're really trying to track somebody down who's a 157 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: user of Silk Road, You're just not going to be 158 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: able to do it. There was just a sense of 159 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: security and safety that people had when they were using it, 160 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: including Ross Olbricht. 161 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they also were pretty smart early on. Our 162 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: guess Olbricht was by making it a familiar shopping online 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 2: shopping experience. It I mean I never saw it. I 164 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 2: think I managed to find some like screenshots and stuff, 165 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: but it supposedly looked and operated much like any other 166 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: e retailer. You would go on there and you would 167 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: have your little shopping basket and you would have your 168 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: items that you could you know, are all categorize and 169 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 2: listed that you could sip through, and you could look 170 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 2: at customer reviews and uh, you know, I'm sure there 171 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: were bad deals that went down, but supposedly it was. 172 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: It worked because the people selling the drugs believe that 173 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: you should really sell the thing that you're trying to 174 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: sell and you'll stay in business. 175 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: Right just like if you're a a like you have 176 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: terrible customer service and you're selling like. 177 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: Which it's sure. 178 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking like some sort of sown strawberry potholder, 179 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: something in the shape of a strawberry, so much better 180 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: than a wedget. But you tell all of your customers 181 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: who say, like it's the the stitchings coming loose, that 182 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: they can go to hell and die. Yeah, you're gonna 183 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: get a bad rating and people are gonna stop buying 184 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: from you, especially if there's other people selling sewn strawberry potholders. Right, 185 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: same thing, if you're selling drugs on Silk Road. There 186 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: were a ton of people selling pot and acid and 187 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: ecstasy and heroin and cocaine that like, you just didn't 188 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: have to rely on just one dealer. So the dealers 189 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: were competing with one another, and to compete they just 190 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: tried to keep their user rating up as best as 191 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: possible and that kept them honest. It's just nuts, Like 192 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: this whole thing in theory should have collapsed on day one. 193 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: It just should never have worked out because it was 194 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: just based on so many faulty assumptions that just happened 195 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: to come together and support this site until the FED 196 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: shut it down. 197 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a seller's guide where if you're going 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: to sell your drugs. They would say, hey, here's how 199 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: to do that. Here's how you can ship drugs through 200 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: the mail, you know, pretty safely, vacuum ceiling and all, 201 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: you know, all kinds of tips and tricks, and not 202 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: that many packages supposedly were intercepted, a very small percentage 203 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: of them. But you mentioned some of the things in 204 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 2: your I thought you were singing that Queens of the 205 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: Stone Age song there for a second. 206 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: Which one when you heard that. 207 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: I don't know if they had that one song that 208 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: was I thought it was not so great. Cocaine and 209 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: ecstasy and blah blah blah blah blah, and they were 210 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: just like rattling off drugs or whatever. 211 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: That didn't sound very great. 212 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: No, it wasn't one of their best songs. I was 213 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: into them for a minute. 214 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: I'd like that one hit song of theirs. It's really good. 215 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: No one knows maybe yes, yes, the one man, I know. 216 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: It's a good song. Uh yeah. So you could buy 217 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: anything you want. And it wasn't just like, hey, here's 218 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: some cocaine if you're interested in this upper. It was 219 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: very very specific stuff like a very specific strain of 220 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: Colombian cocaine or a very specific strain of heroin, the 221 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: tar heroin that you could find, you know, if you've 222 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: ever been to a legal cannabis shop in any of 223 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: the states that allow that here in the US, it 224 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: was sort of like that. You know, you get very 225 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: detailed descriptions of stuff, and you know, you could have 226 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: a customer service representative help you find what you wanted, 227 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: and it was like, if you were into that kind 228 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: of thing, it was probably pretty great for you and 229 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: probably much safer than going to some drug dealer's house. Maybe, 230 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: I don't know. 231 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: That's a big deal. So one of the things that 232 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: was touted by supporters of ross Olbrichton Silk Road was 233 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: that it was a site for harm reduction. Yeah, that 234 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: it was so vastly safer than buying drugs on the street, 235 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: often from some randow you don't even know, or at 236 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: a club or something like that. Oh, yeah, I state 237 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: that it just yeah, that it was actually providing a 238 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: service that actually made the world safer. It didn't fly 239 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: very well, as we'll see, but that was that was 240 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: a big, a big talking point for them. 241 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't want anyone to misinterpret that. I'm 242 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 2: saying that, like, hey, you should just be able to 243 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: buy drugs in the mail and it's totally safe and 244 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: you should trust that. But they seem to be setting 245 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: up a situation where they were trying to ensure that 246 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: there was a lot of trust between buyers, sellers, everybody. Like, 247 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: a situation like this doesn't happen if there's not trust 248 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: between all the participating parties. 249 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: Precisely, Yeah, for sure. I Yeah, it's just it's just 250 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: crazy to me that it ever worked. Should we take 251 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: a break, Yeah, let's take a break and we'll come 252 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: back and talk about some of the nuts and bolts 253 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: of the whole thing. 254 00:13:33,960 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: All right, we'll be right back. So you've mentioned this guy, 255 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: Ross Olbrecht, the founder and creator. We need to talk 256 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: a little bit about this dude. He went by the 257 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: alias dread Pirate Roberts, even though later in his defense 258 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: that would be it would be brought up that there 259 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: were like many dread Pirate Roberts over the years, and 260 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: that he sold it at one point and wasn't even 261 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: involved anymore. If you follow the court case, it gets 262 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: really really in the weeds. 263 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: Yes, quote in court was do you not know the 264 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: dread Pirate Roberts reference? 265 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, they were like, why would you name yourself that? 266 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: Right? 267 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: And he said, have you never seen the Princess Bride? 268 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: Yes, for the people who haven't seen the Prince's Bride, 269 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: number one, go see the Prince's Pride, and number two, 270 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: dred Pirate Roberts was the name of a well pirate 271 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: who was essentially like a character that different people over 272 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: the years and generations inhabited. So say, dread Pilot Roberts 273 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: was two hundred years old because he was made up 274 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: of successive pirates who wore that mask and used that name. 275 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So Ulbrich had a very very smart guy. 276 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: As a very smart guy, he had a Bachelor of 277 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: Science in physics, got his master's in material science and engineering, 278 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: and was in Austin, Texas in two thousand and nine 279 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: when he tried a few different initial companies. Basically he 280 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: had a video game company tried. He found the most 281 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: success with a second hand book retailer called good Wagon Books, 282 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: where he kind of learned how to do web development 283 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: and inventory management and e retailing, kind of a starter 284 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: kit for what he would need to start Silk Road, 285 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: but it still wasn't making the kind of dough he 286 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: wanted to make I think they were pulling in maybe 287 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: low six figures in a year. 288 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And he had like five employees sorting like 289 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: fifty thousand books and not bad. They were selling them 290 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: on Amazon like you do, like you can buy use 291 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: books on Amazon. That's just what they did. But his 292 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: heart wasn't in it. And after the show elves that 293 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: he had built in this warehouse to hold the books 294 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: all collapsed. 295 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: He was like, I'm not. 296 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: Going to pick those up. I'm just gonna set this 297 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: warehouse on fire and walk away. 298 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: That's really funny. That sounds like something. 299 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: I would do. I would do the same thing. 300 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it on fire and walk away, but 301 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: I just walk away. 302 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: So he One of the other reasons he was keen 303 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: to walk away is he'd been already thinking about Silk 304 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: Road for close to a year by now. 305 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 306 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: And one of the things that really kind of spurred 307 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: his interest in creating something like an online illicit drug 308 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: sale website is that he became interested in libertarian theory, 309 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: specifically libertarian economic theory, which is basically that if you 310 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: don't have economic freedom in particular, you're going to be 311 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: a slave to the grind. They've got you essentially, and 312 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: that to you can either get rich and remove yourself 313 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: from that game or that rat race, or you can 314 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: try to change the rule of the game and make 315 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: it much more fair and equitable and get rid of 316 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: coercion and all that stuff. And it's all based on 317 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: the libertarian philosophy of self ownership, which essentially explains itself. 318 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, he I don't know, explain it. 319 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: Oh, well, you own yourself. So any kind of laws 320 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: or prohibitions of anything that say you do to yourself, say, 321 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: taking drugs, is just completely outrageous and immoral and is illegitimate. Okay, 322 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: So drug laws specifically are illegitimate and terrible to libertarians 323 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: because you're taking the drugs for yourself, and that's your choice, right, 324 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: It's personal choice. So that really kind of explains a 325 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: lot why he was like an illicit drug website. It 326 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: was a thumb in the eye to the drug laws 327 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: that he and other libertarians feel were illegitimate. 328 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: All right, I'm glad asked Yeah, I'm glad. 329 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: You asked too, because I really wanted to get that 330 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: off my chest. 331 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: So Silk Road grew. He started. It was not just 332 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: a one person operation. It was too big for that, 333 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: so he needed some employees. These people all went by 334 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 2: these kind of fun little nicknames, including Variety Jones and 335 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: Nigo Oh also from Princess Bride. Yeah, didn't notice that 336 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: libertas Smed and then another one chronic pain one word 337 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: the first sea's capitalized, and that person's name was Curtis 338 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: Green and he was the first person that would be 339 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 2: arrested in the Silk Road operation. And so you'll just 340 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: you know, sort of put a pin in that. 341 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: Guy, Yes, for sure. So he gets the website launched 342 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven around the beginning of twenty eleven, and 343 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: to get things kicked off, he started growing psilocybin mushrooms 344 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: so that there was something somebody was selling on Silk Road, 345 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: and pretty soon other people were like, wait, this is 346 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: you're really doing this, Like this is for real? I 347 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: want to I want to make money selling drugs online, 348 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: and it just kind of took off from there. Again, 349 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: without cryptocurrency, there just wouldn't have been a Silk Road. 350 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: And this is actually pointed to you by some people 351 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: as like an early proving ground that showed like yep, 352 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: bitcoin works, it does exactly what it says it can 353 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: do and it could completely revolutionize global the global economy. 354 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: This was the first chance for it to really kind 355 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: of show it stuff, and it really did because it worked. 356 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: And one of the other reasons it worked too, is 357 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: because ross Oldbert was honest. He hand I guess hand 358 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: transacted every transaction between seller and buyer on the site 359 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: for a while, and at that point he would hold 360 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: the money in escrow and then when the whole thing was, 361 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: when the deal was done and everybody was satisfied, you 362 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: would release the money to the seller. At any point 363 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: in that string, he could have been like, thanks for 364 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: the money, chumps, Thanks for the money, chumps, Thanks for 365 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: the money, chumps, and just taking off with the bitcoin, 366 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: and he didn't. And the reputation that that helped give 367 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: that site was another reason it started to grow and flourish. 368 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So as the site is, you know, 369 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: kind of going along and it's making all kinds of 370 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: money and getting more and more popular or as popular 371 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: as something is on the dark web, he started getting 372 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: a little more political. Under his moniker DPR dread Pirate, 373 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: Roberts started making these big statements about just sort of 374 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 2: his philosophies about politics. He would say things like stop 375 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 2: funding the state with your tax dollars and direct your 376 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: productive energies into the black market. So it started sort 377 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 2: of bordering on manifesto kind of stuff. I think they 378 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 2: would have shut it down anyway, just because they were 379 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: dealing in illegal drugs. But the US government definitely hates 380 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: it when they don't like the word manifesto. So I 381 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: think I think all this other political stuff definitely drew 382 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: even more attention and ire maybe than it would happen. 383 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think so. Like I said, it was 384 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: a thumb in the eye, and I think it kind 385 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: of felt like that to the government and the powers 386 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: that be, right. 387 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, thought he kind of thought, and he kind of 388 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: was leading a revolution in a lot of ways, because, 389 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 2: as we'll see later on, a lot of more sites 390 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: like this were born in its wake. 391 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: Right, So it's interesting to see too, the evolution of 392 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: him going from a libertarian idealist to what the Fed's 393 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: eventually described as like the kingpin of a global drug cartel. Yeah, 394 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: really overblown, as we'll see. Yeah, but in the beginning, 395 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: he even as a libertarian, said dump there's limits here, 396 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Like this is not just a free for all. You 397 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: can't have child pornography. You can't try to sell weapons 398 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: of mass destruction, you can't offer hitman services, sell stolen 399 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: credit cards or personal information, like, you just can't do that. 400 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: And if you scam anybody, we're gonna boot you off 401 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: the site and we're gonna hunt you down and sick 402 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: dogs on you or something like that. He said, basic 403 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: rules are to treat others as you would wish to 404 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: be treated, and don't do anything to hurt or scam 405 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: someone else. So that was like the whole idea. And 406 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: then the fact that his moniker was dread Pirate Roberts 407 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: and everybody loves like, there's no one who's seen the 408 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: Princess Briden doesn't love it. Prove me wrong. I will 409 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: prove you wrong. So all that kind of combined almost 410 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: a cult of personality grew up around dread Pirate Roberts 411 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: and attracted more and more people to Silk Road. And like, 412 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: I think I get the impression, like you were, like 413 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: you felt cool to be a user of Silk Road. 414 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, he created a kinder, gentler drug trade in a 415 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: lot of ways. Yeah, if you're wondering, like, yeah, but 416 00:22:58,520 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: this guy could get shut down in a lot of 417 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: ways that don't have anything to do with the government, 418 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 2: like a denial of service attack or something like that. 419 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: Supposedly he was paying a lot of money for protection 420 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: for this kind of thing, maybe up to fifty thousand 421 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 2: dollars a week. Wire did a really great and I 422 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: remember reading this back then. I didn't go back into it, 423 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: but a big two part report on this, and they 424 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 2: had it up to fifty grand per week in protection. 425 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: But considering they ended up making about a billion dollars 426 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: over what two years or so, that's you know, pennies 427 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: in the fountain. 428 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But protection is in quotes like that 429 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: was from the very hackers who are like, we're gonna 430 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: shut your site down if you don't get it, like 431 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: any other protection exactly for sure. Yeah, so yeah, he 432 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: would get blackmailed all the time. People were trying to 433 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: shut down the site like it was a They're like 434 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: criminals were attracted as silk Road, and there's plenty of 435 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: criminals who they're like speculators, So blackmailers are you know, 436 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: they're not actually doing anything product if they're just making 437 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: money off somebody else's work, right, Yeah, So yeah, I 438 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: kind of attracted that stuff. So in addition to dealing 439 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: with all of that, he was dealing with customer service. 440 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: He was trying to keep the site running. Something to 441 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: know about ross Oldberg too, He was a self taught coder, 442 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: so he was teaching himself how to keep this massive 443 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: website going as he went along, and keeping himself totally 444 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: anonymous to everybody, including all of the people he worked 445 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: with who were de facto employees basically, so it was 446 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: a lot of stress after a little. 447 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: While, totally. And besides the drugs, he also had a 448 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 2: team of crocheters making those strawberry elements. 449 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: Lots keep up with for sure. 450 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: So how did it all go bad? Well, it's because 451 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: again the government was very very keen on getting this 452 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: thing shut down as fast as they could. But like 453 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, the very way this thing was built 454 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: made it really really hard, almost as impossible but clearly not, 455 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: but really really hard to find out any real information 456 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: about who these people were, where they were, where those 457 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: their computers were. So the FBI got involved initially in 458 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: trying to take down tour. It was called Operation Onion 459 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: Peeler and I'm pretty sure we talked about that in 460 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: the Dark Web app but they in twenty thirteen, there 461 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 2: was an agent named Chris Tarbell that identified secret server 462 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: at a data center, a tour data center in Iceland. 463 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: And this is really what got the ball rolling. 464 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is the official line of the FBI. 465 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: The way that they finally discovered the actual IP address 466 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: of Silk Road was that Tarbell was sitting there analyzing 467 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: the traffic going to and from the site while he 468 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: was like sending in bad information at it, like bad 469 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: passwords and stuff like that, and then tracking what IP 470 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: addresses came back. And then he copied the IP addresses 471 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: and he put him into a browser URL and do 472 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: that over and over again, and eventually he struck gold 473 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: and stumbled onto the real IP address of Silk Road, 474 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: which was then traceable to that server data center in Iceland. 475 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: And from there they then had a copy of the 476 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,239 Speaker 1: Silk Road website including all administration access and privileges, and 477 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: they started to set up their case from that point on. 478 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: That's right, That was the FBI's line. If that seems 479 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: a little hard to believe that they would just sort 480 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: of get lucky, You're not the only person who thinks that. 481 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 2: None other than oh geez is he billed Bill Bill 482 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: Alex Winner from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and don't. 483 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: Forget he was a vampire and Lost Boys too. 484 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, a good point. He made a film called Deep 485 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: Web that jeez, was that out this year? 486 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: I think so or last year? Very recent? 487 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty recent film I think twenty four where he 488 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: you know, he doesn't he didn't like create this contention, 489 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 2: but he basically brought to light like, hey, a lot 490 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 2: of people say that, no, no, no, that's not how 491 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: you found out. What you did was trampled on Oldbrick's 492 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 2: Fourth Amendment rights and that you hacked Silk Road, you 493 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: didn't have a warrant to do so, and you had 494 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: some sort of you know, mass scanning going on on 495 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 2: the Internet for passwords, and you lied about all this. 496 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. The idea is that the NSA was involved helping 497 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: in this investigation, using their crazy, terrible powers to basically 498 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: find passwords to that site and they used it to 499 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: hack in and there. Well you were like, okay, whatever, 500 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: they're trying to take it on the site. It's the FBI. Well, 501 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: the gist of that is is that they did that first, 502 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: then got the evidence that they then went and got 503 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: a search warrant for and then everything started to get 504 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: legitimate from that point on. So that's the contention about 505 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: his Fourth Amendment rights to against search, illegal search, and 506 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: seizure were violated. 507 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if it's all just sounds like weird and 508 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: screwy because it's online, it would be no different than 509 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: if they broke into someone's house, took some evidence and 510 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: then said, now that we have the evidence, we're going 511 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: to get a search warrant to go legally back into 512 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: that house. 513 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, And you mentioned Tarbell, he was an FBI agent. 514 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: He and the FBI were just one of multiple agencies 515 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: from Department of Homeland Security to the DEA to the IRS. 516 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all working like each one had a task 517 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: force trying to take down this website, competing with one 518 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: another in a lot of cases to take down this 519 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: website and catch this big fish that Chuck Schumer didn't like. 520 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: And like, finally, Tarbell was the one who gets the 521 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: credit not just for finding the actual life addressed and 522 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: then the server for Silk Road and all of the 523 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,239 Speaker 1: evidence that that yielded, but he was there on the 524 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: day and helped orchestrate this guy was a cyber crime 525 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: FBI agent. So again this is the official line, and 526 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: it's very thrilling in the Wired article how they describe it. 527 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: But he helped orchestrate, or oversaw the actual arrest of 528 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: Ross olbrit which in and of itself was just fantastically amazing. 529 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. All right, So the FBI gets that 530 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 2: copy of the server contents from Iceland. They look at 531 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 2: all the traffic and they found traffic to the administrator's 532 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 2: log in and then narrowed that down to the most 533 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: recent traffic was in San Francisco at a place called 534 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: Cafe Luna on Sacramento Street. They did some more investigation 535 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: through the IRS chipping in this time, Like you said, 536 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: so many agencies involved, and they matched the San Francisco lead. 537 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: So they are like, this is all up, you guys. 538 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: There was an IRS agent named Gary Alford who saw 539 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: post about Silk Road on forums in I think a 540 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: couple of years twenty eleven and twenty thirteen from a 541 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: user name altoid, and the email in the post history 542 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: said ross Olbricht at gmail dot com. They found out 543 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: that he lived near that cafe, and all roads all 544 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: of a sudden, we're pointing to Ross Olbrecht. 545 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: And then supposedly on the really damning piece of evidence 546 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: was that that user altoid quickly changed their user name 547 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: to Frosty, and Frosty was the main user account that 548 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 1: ran silk Road. Yeah, that was the name of the 549 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: main central user account. Right. So, like all of these 550 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: things just falling into place, it was just almost almost 551 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: too good to believe. 552 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it went down like a movie. And 553 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: you know what, maybe that's a great time for a 554 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: little cliffhanger. Huh oh boy, all right, we're gonna see 555 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: what movie we're talking about right after. 556 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: This, Chuck, I'm gonna guess the movie is Old Yeller? 557 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: Is it? Am? I right? 558 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: You nailed it? 559 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: Okay, poor Old Yeller. I hate how this goes. 560 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: I was gonna spoil Old Yeller, but I decided not 561 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: to watch it that that dog may live. You never know. 562 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: Good for you for not spoiling a sixty year old film. 563 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the book, I think. 564 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: Too, right. Yes, although there was a sequel, it wasn't 565 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: very well. 566 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: Received Old Yeller two. 567 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: Really, it turns out the little kid missed the first 568 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: time he did this in the second can film. 569 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: Them and now hold Eller's back for revenge? Yeah, write 570 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: that down. That's a good one. 571 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: Okay. So okay, what movie are we talking about that? 572 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: How about what type of movie are we talking about? 573 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: Well, we're talking about probably some sort of a courtroom thriller, 574 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: because what happened was they went to a library and literally, 575 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: and this is what the prosecution said, literally caught him 576 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: with his fingers at the keyboard running Silk Road. They 577 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: were in the library, they had an agent, you know, 578 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: chatting with him and obviously surreptitiously undercover. And while this 579 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: was happening, they drew his attention away by starting a 580 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: little like quarrel among some other people also, you know, 581 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: FBI actors or whatever. And there was a woman, another 582 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: FBI agent, sitting across from Olbrich at the time when 583 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: this happened, and Olbrich turns around, it is like, what's 584 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: going on over there? She grabs that laptop. And because 585 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: he could probably in a single swipe of a key 586 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: stroke or something like encrypt everything on his laptop if 587 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: he saw somebody coming at him, so they knew that 588 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: could happen, they diverted his attention just long enough for 589 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 2: this agent to grab his computer and that was it. 590 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: And boy, Oh boy, did they find some just damning evidence. 591 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 592 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: It turns out Ross Olbrich kept a diary of his 593 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: like ideas and growth and like administration and all the 594 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: problems he had to deal with for Silk Road. Those 595 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: were found diary chronic pain. Really hurt my feelings today. 596 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: Those were found on his laptop, logs of chat logs 597 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: that he had between him and other administrators about running 598 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: the site. He was logged in as the main user Frosty, 599 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: the person who was actually running the show when they 600 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: stole it or grabbed his lap book. No, stole it. 601 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: He had spreadsheets like tracking silk Road. I mean just yeah. 602 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: It's if a prosecutor could be like, I want this, this, 603 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: and this for evidence. It couldn't get any better than 604 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: what they found on Ross Holbrick's laptop. 605 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. What so they also traced about eighty million dollars 606 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: in profit to him. This is a dumb question that 607 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: I'm just now thinking of. But what did he just 608 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: take a cut from every transaction? Was it that simple? Yes, Okay, 609 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: that's what I figured. I just didn't know for sure, and. 610 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: I think it was a reasonable cut. I don't think 611 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: it was some massive take or anything like that, and 612 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: he would only he would just transfer it like once 613 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: a week, like his his accumulated cuts from that week. 614 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: He was very honest in that sense. 615 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: So he would get his small percentage, a bottle of 616 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 2: Delauded and a strawberry even met yeah, for every transaction. 617 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: Every Saturday night. 618 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: So we mentioned early that as part of his defense. 619 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: They were like, you know what, he may have started 620 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: silk Road, but he sold it, and there were many 621 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: dread pirate Roberts and one of the other ones framed him. 622 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: All of this stuff was just a small part of 623 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 2: his defense. It was not an easy cell. It did 624 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: not work. He was convicted for creating an operating silk 625 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 2: Road and got five sentences, got a twenty year sentence, 626 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: a fifteen year sentence, a five year sentence, two life 627 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 2: sentences with no chance of parole. And the judge said 628 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: it was your opus. You wanted it to be your legacy, 629 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: and it is. 630 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. The judge mentioned harming the fabric of it was 631 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: very destructive to the fabric of society. And when your 632 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: judge is pulling out fabric of society and your sentencing, 633 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: you're screwed. You're in big trouble. And so he was 634 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: effectively handed a death sentence, like you don't outlive a 635 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: sentence like that, and it was just totally out of 636 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: portion to the charges he was facing, like conspiracy to 637 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: commit like drug trafficking and fraud and just I mean, 638 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: it was some hardcore offenses, but non violent offenses, and 639 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: he was given the kind of sentence that you would 640 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: give like a multiple killer or a mass killer or 641 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: something like that, right, And the reason why is because 642 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 1: he was there was evidence found of five to six 643 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: murder for higher schemes that he had ordered or agreed 644 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: to as dread pirate Roberts to kill like a blackmailer, 645 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: a witness, some other people. And even though he was 646 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: never charged in federal court for this, even though they 647 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: couldn't prove any of those cases, and the prosecutors in 648 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: this case even said to the jury like, we're not 649 00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: saying like this is not part of his his his charges, 650 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: we're not prosecuting him for that, but seriously, let me, 651 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: let us just tell you about that. And so they're 652 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: like they he was tainted by the media. He had 653 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: a bad reputation from that point, because that's totally different 654 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: from setting up a libertarian illicit drug marketplace. Now you're 655 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: ordering hits on people to keep your drug enterprise going. 656 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: That is a whole different kettle of fish in the 657 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: public's mind. So his reputation was smeared from the outset. 658 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: The jury was tainted with this information and the idea. 659 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: Oh and the judge referenced it in explaining why the 660 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: sentence was so harsh. And so all of that is 661 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: generally considered illegal, like in illegitimate, And he tried to 662 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. They wouldn't 663 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: hear it, and that was that. So his last chance 664 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: is some president coming along at some point and saying, like, 665 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: you know what, you're not so bad, presto change, Oh, 666 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: you're no longer a felon. 667 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. He was actually would likely have been indicted for 668 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 2: a murder in Maryland. It was dropped because he got convicted, 669 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: you know, for whatever life and beyond. It was dropped 670 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: because he was, you know, convicted on the other charges 671 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: for you know, a gazillion years or whatever with no 672 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 2: chance in parole. But it was a pretty interesting situation 673 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 2: with what ended up being a corrupt dea agent and 674 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 2: a secret service agent and a in a sting operation basically, right, Yeah. 675 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: One of the guys who was really pursuing him from 676 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: the outset was a guy named Carl Force, a DEA 677 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: agent and posed. Yeah, he posed as a gangster named 678 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: nob who basically became a confidant of dread Pirate Roberts, 679 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: and it went so far out of undercover that he 680 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: became a criminal himself. He posed as another user to 681 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: sell tips and stuff about the investigation against Silk Road 682 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: to dread Pirate Roberts for like one hundred grand. He 683 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: stole three hundred and fifty grand and bitcoin, which was 684 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why dred Pirate Roberts ordered to 685 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: hit on one of the people because he thought that 686 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: other person had stolen it. This guy was dirty as 687 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: the day is long. And they say in part because 688 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: a lot of the charges, including that extra murder for 689 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: hire that was in Maryland, was arranged by this crooked 690 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: Dea agent. They're like, we're we're not even gonna try 691 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: this one. 692 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I guess there's no point at that point, 693 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: especially because it's not like it was carried out. If 694 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 2: there was like a you know, if it had been 695 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 2: carried out and there was a murder victim or something 696 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: like that. They probably would have, but right, yeah, there 697 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: were never any just to be clear, you know, no 698 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: murder for hires ever took place, But it was just 699 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 2: the hint that that was going on really influenced the 700 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: judge and the sentencing and everything he was, I believe. 701 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 2: In Alex Winner's documentary, he points out that a lot 702 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 2: of the people that were also brought to trial for 703 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 2: this got very including some of the drug sellers, people 704 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 2: that ran Silk Road two point zero after this. Yeah, 705 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 2: they got sentences of like six years on average, and 706 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: so there's been a lot of calls for clemency that 707 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 2: it was, you know, it was too stiff of a sentence. 708 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were clearly. I think the judge also referenced, 709 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: like this is a huge like everybody's watching this case. 710 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: Everybody's following this, you know, and I want to send 711 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: a message to anybody who would follow in your footsteps 712 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: that we're going to basically give you a death sentence 713 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: if you if you try it. They just didn't follow 714 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: through on that, which makes his sense all the more unfair. Yeah, 715 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: Like had they handed down sentences similar to his for people, 716 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, like setting up illicit drug marketplaces. There's some 717 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: sort of like legitimacy to it just because of the 718 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: precedent and then the custom that developed. Yeah, just doing 719 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: that to one person and then not following up, that's 720 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: just that's just wholly unfair and again possibly a violation 721 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: of his sixth Amendment rights to a fair trial. 722 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the idea may have been to send 723 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 2: a message like, hey, this will never be tolerated. This 724 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: is the first example of this, and we're gonna throw 725 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: you know, ten books at them. But it you know, 726 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 2: it didn't stop anything. Like I just mentioned, there was 727 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 2: a silk Row two point zero that was closed in 728 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, along with twenty six other sites doing similar things. 729 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 2: So silk Row definitely opened that whole door. And it's 730 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: it's I don't know if they can shut them down 731 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: as fast as they can be born. At this point, probably. 732 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: It seems like the kind of thing like mushrooms just 733 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: cropping up, like you pluck one and two more bow 734 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: in its place, essentially, like there's just nothing. I mean, 735 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: it's not just American kids doing this. They're like the 736 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: Russians are like I'm sure the North Koreans are doing 737 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: it like everybody's doing it, like you just can't. It's 738 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: impossible to stop now so much so that almost makes 739 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: you wonder if somebody else would have come up with 740 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: this concept head. 741 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 2: Oh sure first, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm sure someone 742 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: would have come along. 743 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: There's a free raws dot org website which his supporters 744 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: created that's still around. And if you're asking, like, we 745 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,959 Speaker 1: wait a minute, how can everybody support him if he's 746 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: ordered like five or six murders for hire, their position 747 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: is that like that was the other dread pirate Roberts 748 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: who set him up, whoever that was, that ross Olbrich 749 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: did not order those hits. That he's a good guy, 750 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: a humane guy. He would never do something like that. 751 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: But he's still in prison. I saw a tweet from him, 752 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: I don't remember when, but he was saying the thing 753 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: he misses the most is not being able to see 754 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: the night sky anymore, which is somehow like the saddest 755 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: thing you could say as a prisoner. But yeah, there's 756 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there here like that kid 757 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 1: is never getting out. He just puts such a thumb 758 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: in the eye of the US government and law enforcement 759 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: that I don't know, I don't know if he'll ever 760 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: get clemency. 761 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the night sky thing, it's definitely better than saying 762 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 2: olive garden get more sympathy. 763 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: Oh no, man, never any breadsticks. 764 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 2: That's true. I think that. Uh oh never mind. 765 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: Okay, let's go get some breadsticks after this. 766 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 2: Okay, that'd be great. Oh boy, remember that time we 767 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 2: went to Red Lobster and yeah, and Silver Spring. Yeah, 768 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 2: and I had never really eaten their much. And that 769 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 2: was one of your special things as a kid, right, 770 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 2: eating those cheddar biscuits or whatever. 771 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, kid, an adult, I love those things. Yes, I 772 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,720 Speaker 1: introduced you to them, is what you're saying, right. 773 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 2: I think so. I may have had one when I 774 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: was a kid, but we just didn't go out to 775 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 2: eat a whole lot, and Red Lobster was like far 776 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 2: fancier than we could even afford on special occasions. So, yeah, you. 777 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: Always make me feel so bad about my upbringing, which 778 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: was not wealthy or well produced. 779 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: Silver spoons Are you kidding. 780 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: Me that silver spoons? Red lobster? 781 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's fine. Red Lobster was a very I 782 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 2: imagine is a very duble, fancy dinner. We just didn't 783 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 2: go out to you much. Don't feel bad. 784 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the fancy part also is really largely marketing, Chuck. 785 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: I think when you see the actual product in front 786 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: of you, it's not not super fancy. Yeah. Although, did 787 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: you hear I think they filed bankruptcy because of endless Shrimp. 788 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a disaster. Yeah. 789 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: Can you imagine? That's like it's like an onion headline. 790 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. I read quite a bit about that for some 791 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 2: reason because it was just so interesting to me. It's sad, 792 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's an American icon. Yep, who knew? 793 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: Well, since we talked about Red Lobster, of course, that 794 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: triggered listener mail everybody. 795 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,919 Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this the Stuff you Should Know, Bump. Hey, guys, 796 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 2: longtime listener, first time caller, love the show. I'm curious 797 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 2: if you've ever tracked the Stuff you Should Know, Bump? 798 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 2: Does it even exist? I know that every time you 799 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 2: mentioned a documentary with more info or something like that, 800 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 2: my wife and I end up coming through our streaming 801 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: services to find it and learn more. Most recently, we 802 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 2: watched tread after the Killdozer episode. Now I'm teeing up 803 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 2: American Anarchist. After swatches, he said, oh wait, I may 804 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 2: have mixed that up with the Anarchist cookbook episode. Anyway. 805 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: And by the way, everyone, we forgot to mention the swatchguards. 806 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 2: I feel so bad about that. We heard from a 807 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 2: lot of people on that. 808 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. 809 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:17,919 Speaker 2: I totally forgot about swatchguards. 810 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 811 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 2: Anyway, swatchguards are little rubber things that went over the glass, 812 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 2: not the bezel. I was wrong about that. The bezel 813 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 2: is the ring that holds the glass. 814 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: So, man, I understood it before, but not now. 815 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 2: You know, you look at a watchface and I said, 816 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 2: I think I said the glass was the bezel. I 817 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 2: just misspoke. The bezel is the ring that holds that 818 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 2: glass in place. 819 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I think I got it that second time around. 820 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, back to the email anyway, guys, it 821 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 2: made me think that other viewers like me, If there 822 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 2: were other viewers like me, there could be a noticeable 823 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 2: bump in views or listens every time a documentary or 824 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 2: song or something gets mentioned creating your own version of 825 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 2: the cold Bear bump. We need statistics or get meta 826 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 2: and do a SYSK episode about the st SK bump. 827 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 2: I think you just gooped up on that last part. 828 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 2: That's Andy from Baltimore. Andy. We don't have data on this, 829 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 2: but we definitely had people send in. I can't remember 830 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 2: what song it was that you referenced, but it ended 831 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 2: up like ranking in Spotify or something, and we like 832 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 2: to think that was because of us. 833 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: Well we know it was because remember we conducted in 834 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,479 Speaker 1: an experiment and talked about Barry Manilow now in Black 835 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: Sabbath's War Pigs. Yeah, yeah, they showed up in the 836 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: top form of Spotify's are just that's right. 837 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 2: So hey, I guess we should plug Silverspoons. Then that 838 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 2: Josh Clark Life Story, and we'll see if that gets 839 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 2: a bump on wherever that's streaming. 840 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: Speaking of bumps and plugs, there is one other podcast 841 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: I'd like to plug. Chuck. You know, our friend and 842 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 1: colleague Daniel Whitson from Daniel and Jorge explained the Universe podcast. 843 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so the their podcast just came to an end. 844 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: But ever the productive person, Daniel came up with another 845 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,240 Speaker 1: one that just launched, called Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. 846 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: He said, new podcasts, same universe. So if you're into 847 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: all the stuff that is very interesting, like space and 848 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: time and aliens and black holes and philosophy and just 849 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: the whole coolness of the universe we live in. Then 850 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: go check out Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe podcast for 851 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: a recommendation. 852 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 2: Sounds great, good people. 853 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: Well, if you want to be like who is that, 854 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,320 Speaker 1: that's send us the stsk. 855 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 2: Ama Andy from Baltimore. 856 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: All right, If you want to be like Andy from 857 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: Baltimore and get in touch with us, then we would 858 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can wrap it up, 859 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: spank it on the bottom, and send it off to 860 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 861 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 862 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 863 00:47:54,120 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.