Speaker 1: On this episode of Nuts World. President Trump's decision to
Speaker 1: use B two bunker buster bombs on three key Iranian
Speaker 1: nuclear facilities over the weekend brought a ceasefire of the
Speaker 1: conflict between Israel and Aram. But will the cease fire
Speaker 1: last and how has the conflict begun to reshape the
Speaker 1: Middle East? Here to discuss Israel's reaction to the US
Speaker 1: bombings and the ceasefire agreement, I'm really pleased to welcome
Speaker 1: back my guest, yakovkats. He is the former editor in
Speaker 1: chief of the Jerusalem Post, author of the upcoming book
Speaker 1: While Israel Slept Alhamas Surprised, the most powerful military in
Speaker 1: the Middle East, which is available for pre order now,
Speaker 1: and he is I think one of the most insightful
Speaker 1: and remarkably informed analyst on the entire region. Yakoff, welcome
Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me again on NEWTS World.
Speaker 2: It's great to be with you, mister speaker.
Speaker 1: So let's begin with from an American perspective, the biggest headline,
Speaker 1: which is President Trump authorizing B two bombers to strike
Speaker 1: the Iranian nuclear facilities. What was your reaction when you
Speaker 1: heard the news?
Speaker 2: Well, I thought that when the President made that decision,
Speaker 2: and those B two bombers flew from Missouri all the
Speaker 2: way to the Middle East into Iran and dropped those
Speaker 2: GBU fifty seven bunker busters over Fordeaux, the secret Enrichmond
Speaker 2: facility that Iran had built into a mountain near the
Speaker 2: city of Coombe, as well as over Natans, the main
Speaker 2: enrichment uranium and Richmond facility, and then some Tomahawk missiles
Speaker 2: from submarines that were parked off the coast of Iran.
Speaker 2: To me, it was a historic day because what it
Speaker 2: showed was, finally there's a president who, after so many
Speaker 2: who have promised over the years not to allow Iran
Speaker 2: to obtain a nuclear weapon, and had consistently and constantly
Speaker 2: taken that red line. We won't let them in rich uranium.
Speaker 2: And then when they enriched uranium, we said, we'll only
Speaker 2: let them in rich uranium to low levels. And then
Speaker 2: when it went to twenty percent, the world said, well,
Speaker 2: not to sixty percent. And then when it went to
Speaker 2: sixty percent, the world said, well not to ninety percent.
Speaker 2: And finally someone understood that what was happening here and
Speaker 2: this was what was obvious to everyone, and you know this,
Speaker 2: Sir is that there is no uranium enrichment to sixty
Speaker 2: percent unless it is for a nuclear bomb. And it
Speaker 2: was time for the Uranians to be taught that they
Speaker 2: cannot continue to recavoc in the world with their proxy
Speaker 2: army and to illicitly try to obtain a nuclear weapon.
Speaker 2: And I think that what the President did will go
Speaker 2: down in history as a projection of power, but also
Speaker 2: as an important lesson to rogue states that they can't
Speaker 2: get away with trying to develop weapons of mass destructs.
Speaker 1: It was fascinating to me that in the initial campaign,
Speaker 1: and I thought there was a certain artistry to Trump
Speaker 1: offering around sixty days to come to the table, and
Speaker 1: on the sixty first day Israel struck. I'm presuming that
Speaker 1: net Yahoo and Trump had some kind of understanding. I
Speaker 1: thought the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence service collaborated
Speaker 1: with astonishing effectiveness. Well, weren't you a little surprised at
Speaker 1: how thoroughly they came to dominate the region and how
Speaker 1: decisively they were targeting specific key revolutionary guard and other
Speaker 1: military leaders.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. We had been hearing about Israeli planning
Speaker 2: for a potential strike against Iran for about the larger
Speaker 2: part of the last twenty five years. And we know
Speaker 2: that in that period Israel has attacked serious nuclear reactor.
Speaker 2: You and I have spoken about this in the past,
Speaker 2: and Israel back in nineteen eighty one famously destroyed the
Speaker 2: oc Rak reactor outside of Baghdad that Sadam Hussein was building.
Speaker 2: But for Iran it was really it was a long
Speaker 2: time of planning and of Israel considering its options and
Speaker 2: really preferring diplomacy. But over the years it perfected a
Speaker 2: strike package, really the likes of something that I don't
Speaker 2: think we ever could have imagined. I mean, if we
Speaker 2: look at what happened on June thirteenth, when Israel launched
Speaker 2: its attack, it split up its targets into three different categories.
Speaker 2: Category number one was taking out all the air defense
Speaker 2: systems in Iran, basically open up the skies, take control
Speaker 2: of Iranian airspace. I call it not aeriel superiority. Aerial
Speaker 2: sovereignty is what Israel created over Iran by taking out
Speaker 2: all of the missile defense systems, all the radar installations.
Speaker 2: Basically what it allowed for. I mean, think about this.
Speaker 2: We had twelve days of operations over fifteen hundred Israeli
Speaker 2: Air Force sorties over Iran, not a single plane shot down.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's remarkable, right when you think about what
Speaker 2: Israel was up against in the run up to all
Speaker 2: of this, so that itself is a remarkable accomplishment. The
Speaker 2: second category was the ballistic missile stockpiles and launchers. Iran
Speaker 2: does not have an air force. Its air force is outdated,
Speaker 2: it's antiqued. It's based on old planes that have bought
Speaker 2: from the United States, like phantoms back in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: before the Islamic Revolution in seventy nine. It's got some
Speaker 2: Russian aircraft, but nothing that really presents a challenge to
Speaker 2: a formidable air force like the Israeli one. So what
Speaker 2: they had invested all of their money and scientific research
Speaker 2: in was ballistic missiles, and they've developed sophisticated ballistic missiles.
Speaker 2: Before this operation they had about three thousand of them
Speaker 2: and maybe another five six hundred launchers. And by the way,
Speaker 2: they had planned to launch hundreds of ballistic missiles at
Speaker 2: a time. It is in total, over twelve days, they
Speaker 2: were able to fire five hundred missiles into Israel, ninety
Speaker 2: percent of those intercepted by Israeli missile defense systems backed
Speaker 2: by the American THAD that had been deployed here already
Speaker 2: during the war that erupted after October seven, and Age's
Speaker 2: ships that were also docked off the coast of Israel
Speaker 2: and the Mediterranean, the East med that also helped in
Speaker 2: the interceptions. So you saw also the degrading and the
Speaker 2: weakening of their missile capability. Within that category was also
Speaker 2: this remarkable operation called Operation Narnia, where the Israeli Air Forced,
Speaker 2: together with its intelligence services, took out in the span
Speaker 2: of just a few minutes, fifteen of the top nuclear
Speaker 2: scientists in Iran, the ones who were working on the
Speaker 2: most sophisticated and complicated components of a nuclear weapon, as
Speaker 2: well as commander of the Iranian Military, commander of the
Speaker 2: Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the IERGC, command of the Air
Speaker 2: Defense Systems, commander of the Air Force, and a bunch
Speaker 2: of slew of other top military commanders. Over twenty top
Speaker 2: military commanders in Iran knocked off. What that does is
Speaker 2: it disrupts. It creates chaos in the whole chain of
Speaker 2: command and in the command and control system. So who
Speaker 2: gives the orders? What do we do who attacks, how
Speaker 2: do we attack? And then, of course was the third category.
Speaker 2: Once you created aerial sovereignty, once you've disrupted their offensive
Speaker 2: capabilities and their ability to command and control themselves, then
Speaker 2: the Israel started to go after the nuclear sites. And
Speaker 2: again it's focus, and this is important for people to understand,
Speaker 2: its focus was not on removing Iran's nuclear program. There's
Speaker 2: a reactor, for example, called Boucher, which is a nuclear
Speaker 2: reactor that the Uranians still have. Israel to not attack
Speaker 2: that reactor, that's a civilian energy reactor, let them have it.
Speaker 2: Israel's focus was on the uranium enrichment program because that
Speaker 2: has only one perpose, and that is for the purpose
Speaker 2: of nuclear weapons. So it went after three key facilities,
Speaker 2: the same ones that Donald Trump ordered the B twos
Speaker 2: to bomb Natans. The main enrichment facility where thousands of
Speaker 2: centrifuges are located in multiple chambers on multiple levels underground,
Speaker 2: the four doaux facility, which Israel had difficulty penetrating on
Speaker 2: its own, it was unclear how it was going to
Speaker 2: do that. And the third facility is Isfahan where they
Speaker 2: did the uranium conversion. So they took the raw uranium
Speaker 2: turned it into the gas that was fed to the centrifuges,
Speaker 2: got it back from the centrifuges, and eventually would have
Speaker 2: turned it into the metal, which is what would make
Speaker 2: a nuclear bomb. So those three categories and you look
Speaker 2: at what Israel was able to do. It's a pretty
Speaker 2: remarkable operation.
Speaker 1: Given the Israeli air dominance. To what extent did you
Speaker 1: actually need the US to come in with his very
Speaker 1: heavy bombs.
Speaker 2: Look, Israel has very impressive capabilities, but Israel's aircraft and
Speaker 2: its bombs, its bunker busters, are not the most advanced
Speaker 2: in the world. The most advanced in the world are
Speaker 2: the B two bombers and the GBU fifty sevens, what
Speaker 2: are also known as the MOPS. The massive ordinance penetrator.
Speaker 2: It's about a thirteen ton bomb that has the ability
Speaker 2: to penetrate as deep as about one hundred feet if
Speaker 2: not more. The four Daux facility, which is built into
Speaker 2: a mountain, and it's unclear exactly how deep down it is.
Speaker 2: The Ranians don't exactly publish their blueprints online, but we
Speaker 2: have heard from Raphael Grossi, who is the Director General
Speaker 2: of the IEA, the UNS nuclear watchdog. He has said
Speaker 2: that it's about half a mile underground. Other intelligence estimates
Speaker 2: talk about it being anywhere from about you know, eighty
Speaker 2: ninety to one hundred and fifty meters, so about let's say,
Speaker 2: you know, two hundred yards or so underground. Whatever it is,
Speaker 2: it's very deep into a mountain top. What we've seen
Speaker 2: if we look at satellite images, we see that there
Speaker 2: are access roads, two access roads that go into a mountain,
Speaker 2: but then the facilities deeper inside the mountain. So how
Speaker 2: to penetrate a mountain is not something that's so easy
Speaker 2: to do. That's number one. Number two is Natans Well.
Speaker 2: Israel's bunker busters were able to penetrate definitely the first
Speaker 2: levels of the underground chambers. There was the lowest level
Speaker 2: that there were some questions of whether Israeli bombs were
Speaker 2: able to get in there. One thing that Israel did do,
Speaker 2: and the IAEA even said this, was that Israel bombed
Speaker 2: the power plant that was feeding the electrical current to
Speaker 2: the centrifuges in Natans, and that likely caused damage to
Speaker 2: the centrifuges themselves. Just so people understand, centrifuges these kind
Speaker 2: of steel, round, circular looking machines where the uranium spins around.
Speaker 2: They're very delicate, so any little change to their motor
Speaker 2: or their rodder, or even the electrical current could knock
Speaker 2: them out. But it's all better to have complete destruction.
Speaker 2: And as the President himself has said, the B two bombers,
Speaker 2: together with the Israelis, succeeded in obliterating. So after all
Speaker 2: the damage that Israel did came the B two bombers.
Speaker 2: They dropped a dozen there were seven in total, six
Speaker 2: of them each carrying two bombs. Two GBU fifty seven
Speaker 2: six dropped their twelve payload of bombs into the mountain
Speaker 2: where four dose located. One of the aircraft dropped two
Speaker 2: bombs into Natans, and then the Tomahawks were fired, also
Speaker 2: at Natans, but also at Isfahan. Again, we don't have
Speaker 2: images of what's happening inside, and the Ranis of course
Speaker 2: wanted downplay it and pretend as if the damage was
Speaker 2: not extensive. But when you look at the satellite imagery
Speaker 2: and you see literally like someone punctured a hole in
Speaker 2: a mountain, you can just imagine what's going on beneath
Speaker 2: that and underground and Israeli intelligence assessment for what they're worth,
Speaker 2: and I think they're worth something after what we've seen,
Speaker 2: claimed that the destruction is extensive, that Iran's nuclear program
Speaker 2: has been set back by a number of years.
Speaker 1: Unlike the President, I frankly favor regime change because I
Speaker 1: think as long as you have a theocratic dictatorship, the
Speaker 1: chance death to America and death Israel, they're going to
Speaker 1: come back and try to rebuild.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, and I think that what
Speaker 2: we have to keep in mind here is that while
Speaker 2: Israel and America have destroyed infrastructure, buildings, underground facilities, they
Speaker 2: have not destroyed the ambition, the desire, the motive, evation,
Speaker 2: and the ideology to obtain a nuclear weapon. And I'll
Speaker 2: say even more than that, if I was the supreme
Speaker 2: leader now of Iran, the Ayatola Ali Kramanai, and I
Speaker 2: would say to myself, what is my lesson from this
Speaker 2: whole experience. I need nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons would
Speaker 2: give me immunity. Why has no one ever attacked Pyongyang,
Speaker 2: North Korea because they have nuclear weapons so they have immunity.
Speaker 2: Why has the world not been able to enforce a
Speaker 2: no fly zone over Ukraine in the war with Russia
Speaker 2: because Russia has nuclear weapons? So if I'm Kramenai, my
Speaker 2: conclusion is I actually need to move faster to get
Speaker 2: the nuclear weapons. And I'll say one other thing, mister speaker,
Speaker 2: is that if we look at the two previous models
Speaker 2: or examples when Israel took out nuclear reactors, one of
Speaker 2: them was an eighty one, the Osirak reactor I mentioned
Speaker 2: that was built for Iraq by the French in two
Speaker 2: thousand and seven. The Al ki Bar reactor that Pashar
Speaker 2: al Assad was building in northeastern Syria was being built
Speaker 2: for or Syria by North Korea. Once each of those
Speaker 2: reactors was destroyed, for the Iraqis or the Syrians to rebuild,
Speaker 2: they would have required the French again or the North
Speaker 2: Koreans again. They did not have a domestic, indigenous scientific
Speaker 2: or academic nuclear physicist infrastructure. They didn't have people of
Speaker 2: their own who could do it, so they would need
Speaker 2: to call up their friends and say, hey, can you come.
Speaker 2: That's another level and layer of complexity and challenge Iran.
Speaker 2: It's all local, domestic, indigenous. They have the knowledge now. Yes,
Speaker 2: part of the delay is the fact that Israel handpicked
Speaker 2: key nuclear scientists and took them out, and they have
Speaker 2: been eliminated, and those people, let's say, were the centers
Speaker 2: of excellence and the knowledge of certain components. That will
Speaker 2: delay them. But knowledge also can be replaced because they
Speaker 2: have the academic infrastructure, they have others who have some
Speaker 2: of that knowledge, they'll be able to rebuild. So everything
Speaker 2: can be rebuilt and everything can be replaced. So therefore,
Speaker 2: we really have only two ways to get the Iranians
Speaker 2: not to rebuild. One of them is exactly what you said.
Speaker 2: It's regime change. It's for the Iranian people to rise
Speaker 2: up and topple this violent, oppressive regime. By the way
Speaker 2: we've seen over the years, how they have tried right.
Speaker 2: This isn't They're not doing a favor to Israel or
Speaker 2: the United States. They want freedom because this regime is
Speaker 2: violent and oppressive to them. Hangs people from cranes in
Speaker 2: downtown Tehran because of a sexual preference, beats women on
Speaker 2: the streets of Iran because they don't cover their hair
Speaker 2: the right way with a head scarf, throws political dissonance journalists,
Speaker 2: and the infamous ev In prison that is rolled by
Speaker 2: the way bomb the gates of it during this operation,
Speaker 2: just as a symbolic message to the Iranian people. But
Speaker 2: hopefully the Iranian people will be able to take advantage
Speaker 2: of this opportunity, will gain some confidence to do that.
Speaker 2: But there's also one other all alternative, another option per
Speaker 2: se to try to prevent this rebuilding, and that is
Speaker 2: a new nuclear deal. And we're starting to see and
Speaker 2: hear that the President has dispatched his envoy to the
Speaker 2: Middle East, Steve Whitcoff, to try and get those talks again,
Speaker 2: going with the Iranian foreign minister. They had held five
Speaker 2: rounds of negotiations prior to June thirteenth Winters who launched
Speaker 2: its attack, and a new deal which Iran comes too weaker,
Speaker 2: could potentially get Iran to agree to a deal that
Speaker 2: they won't have enrichment in Iran. And if that happens,
Speaker 2: that they don't have enrichment in Iran, we will have
Speaker 2: bought a longer period and have created a safer and
Speaker 2: more stable Middle East.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's any possibility as part of this
Speaker 1: conversation that they can be convinced to cut off their
Speaker 1: support for their various puppets.
Speaker 2: I hope, because the people tend to and this is
Speaker 2: an important point you're making. People tend to think about
Speaker 2: Iran just through the prism of their nuclear program. But
Speaker 2: the fact is that Iran is also the greatest state
Speaker 2: sponsor of terrorism. I mean what Israel came under attack
Speaker 2: on October seventh when the Hamas invaded this country. Of course,
Speaker 2: it was a great failure by Israel's intelligence services, by
Speaker 2: the military, by the government for enacting policies that were wrong,
Speaker 2: and we now know they were wrong. But this was
Speaker 2: orchestrated by Iran when his BLAT's most important proxy, the
Speaker 2: one that had invested billions every year into started firing
Speaker 2: missiles the next day, on October eighth. This was also
Speaker 2: per the instructions of the Iranian patrons and the Huthis.
Speaker 2: As we're recording this, mister speaker, just a few hours ago,
Speaker 2: there was a boothy missile and UAV that was intercepted
Speaker 2: on its way to Israel. So we're after a ceasefire
Speaker 2: and its proxy in Yemen is still launching projectiles and
Speaker 2: explosive drones at this country. I would hope that that
Speaker 2: will be part of any negotiation. I would hope that
Speaker 2: to be part of any talk that will happen. But
Speaker 2: I also think that word today in a new Middle
Speaker 2: East October seventh was a great failure. But that's only
Speaker 2: one side of the coin. In the post October seventh reality,
Speaker 2: Israel has re engineered the Middle East. Let's look at
Speaker 2: what's happened. His Billah is beaten back. It's leader hasan astrala.
Speaker 2: He was like the Bin Laden of this region, the
Speaker 2: most infamous, deadliest, ruthless terrorist leader. He was killed, His
Speaker 2: successor was killed. His successor's successor was killed by Israel.
Speaker 2: They lost their long range missile capability, and everyone by
Speaker 2: now knows about the famous beeper attack that the Israeli
Speaker 2: Mossad launched against his Blah Camas, which unfortunately still holds
Speaker 2: our hostages. But Camas has been beaten. It has no
Speaker 2: real capability to launch an attack inside Israel. And even
Speaker 2: during a war with Iran over twelve days, his block
Speaker 2: comes out in public. He says, you know what, we're
Speaker 2: not getting involved. Who would have imagined that was possible.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been writing about this stuff for twenty
Speaker 2: five years. Okay, every briefing I would go to in
Speaker 2: the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence offices, they would
Speaker 2: always say, look, when we attack Iran, it's a fate
Speaker 2: complained that his blow is going to attack us too. Well,
Speaker 2: that didn't happen, and not to mention by that, I
Speaker 2: forgot to say, Asad's gone, his military's gone. Now you're right,
Speaker 2: we have a new guy there. We don't know who
Speaker 2: he is, Ahmed Shahra al Julani. Is he good? Is
Speaker 2: he bad? He was a former al Kaeda jihadist. Time
Speaker 2: will tell, but there's amazing opportunity to say so. Iran
Speaker 2: is beat in badly, its proxies are weak, it's nuclear
Speaker 2: program degraded. Hopefully this new deal would include all of
Speaker 2: that together.
Speaker 1: Don't you think the Sunni Arab states collectively we're all
Speaker 1: delighted by this outcome.
Speaker 2: Without a doubt. Publicly, we have to understand they have
Speaker 2: public opinion, they have people on their streets. They're not
Speaker 2: always going to be the most pro Israel, so they
Speaker 2: have to condemn and I think Israel understands that. But
Speaker 2: privately speaking, I mean I can tell you just anecdotally,
Speaker 2: I have spoken over the last two weeks since this
Speaker 2: has been going on with people from states in the
Speaker 2: golf that Israel has relations with, and with people from
Speaker 2: states in the Golf that Israel does not have relations
Speaker 2: with senior people who we're sending messages of support. We're
Speaker 2: talking about enhancing and strengthening the relations with Israel at
Speaker 2: a time that we're bombing in Iran because they understand
Speaker 2: something very simple. Israel is doing work that they need
Speaker 2: done because Iran is a threat to them, no less
Speaker 2: than it is a threat to Israel. Iran tries to
Speaker 2: undermine those Sunni states, the UAE, the Saudi's Bahrain Cutter,
Speaker 2: all these other countries, Egypt and Jordan as well. Right, people,
Speaker 2: this kind of flew under the radar. But Israel had
Speaker 2: to close its airspace during the twelve days of this operation,
Speaker 2: couldn't really let planes take off, couldn't let planes land,
Speaker 2: mostly because it knew that if the Iranians know that
Speaker 2: Benurian Airport, our international airport near Tel Aviv is going
Speaker 2: to be getting planes in and out, they'll hit it
Speaker 2: with missiles, and God forbid one of those missiles hits
Speaker 2: a plane, right, that would be very bad. So you
Speaker 2: had about fifty sixty thousand Israelis going through the land
Speaker 2: borders with Egypt and with Jordan quietly, peacefully, no problems.
Speaker 2: I mean, these are Arab countries. Why aren't they closing
Speaker 2: their borders with Israel during a time like this, right,
Speaker 2: they should be standing with their Iranian allies. But that's
Speaker 2: the truth. The Iranians are not their allies. The Iranians
Speaker 2: are the dangerous actor in this region, and they understand it.
Speaker 2: And I think that this is why this really has
Speaker 2: so much immense opportunity. What has happened here, what it
Speaker 2: presents us in this region, and where we can go
Speaker 2: from here. And this is really it's to the credit
Speaker 2: of Prime Minister Nitanio for taking this courageous decision, and
Speaker 2: I think greatly to the credit of the President for
Speaker 2: deciding to join this and really send this collective message
Speaker 2: to the world and especially to this region that we
Speaker 2: can build up so much amazing opportunities from here.
Speaker 1: I was doing Sean Hannity's radio show the other day
Speaker 1: and he said that he had a whole number of
Speaker 1: sources that said we had somehow managed to put non
Speaker 1: existent aircraft on the Iranian system, which I assumed was
Speaker 1: a cyber capability, so that they were actually looking at
Speaker 1: airplanes that didn't exist when they couldn't see the airplanes
Speaker 1: that did exist. And I thought all of that was
Speaker 1: just sort of the world that we're entering.
Speaker 2: The technology that we've seen or we've heard of being
Speaker 2: used and employed during the last twelve days, many stories
Speaker 2: will still be written about it. The spoofing, that's what
Speaker 2: Sean Hannity is talking about, of presenting on a radar
Speaker 2: machine something that doesn't really exist, is a capability that
Speaker 2: Israel has developed over the years and is a way
Speaker 2: to blind your enemy so it does not know exactly
Speaker 2: what's really happening, which aircraft are really coming, and then
Speaker 2: destroys your radar installations. But what we've seen also with
Speaker 2: the Mosad operation on the ground, in addition to the
Speaker 2: Israeli Air Force, which did a remarkable job, the Mossad
Speaker 2: had built up a network of agents in Iran who
Speaker 2: deployed drones. It had basically created a drone explosive factory
Speaker 2: in Iran, and these drones were deployed on that June
Speaker 2: thirteenth day and took out missile defense systems, took out
Speaker 2: radar systems, and took out other capabilities. And then also
Speaker 2: there were reports that the radians were spreading of white
Speaker 2: pickup trucks that were traveling throughout the streets of Tehran
Speaker 2: and were apparently dropping off explosive devices at the homes
Speaker 2: of different people. Now, even whether that's true or not
Speaker 2: about the truck, the fact that it sowed such fear
Speaker 2: within Iran tells you everything. And I've been asked a
Speaker 2: few times and I don't know the answer to this.
Speaker 2: Were these Israeli agents? Were the Iranians or were they
Speaker 2: someone else? I think what we have to assume, and
Speaker 2: you know this, Sir, is that with intelligence agencies like
Speaker 2: the CIA, like the MOSAD, like the really good ones,
Speaker 2: sometimes when they operate somewhere they operate, Israeli agents go
Speaker 2: and do it. American agents go and do it. Sometimes
Speaker 2: they hire local people to do it for them. But
Speaker 2: sometimes they could even have people who are doing it
Speaker 2: for them who don't even know they're doing it for them.
Speaker 2: They could actually be thinking they're doing it for someone
Speaker 2: else when they're actually doing it on the behalf of Visral,
Speaker 2: on behalf of the United States.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the entire project with Hesbo Lah where
Speaker 1: they undercut the market price in order to get them
Speaker 1: to buy the devices.
Speaker 2: Yeah, from a company in Taiwan who didn't even know
Speaker 2: the person who sold it in Taiwan and established an
Speaker 2: office in Romania, had no clue that they were even
Speaker 2: working for the Mossad. It's basically the career of an
Speaker 2: alternative reality, a Hollywood production that the people involved don't
Speaker 2: even know that they are actors in this. So again,
Speaker 2: I don't know. It could be that these were Israeli
Speaker 2: agents on the ground. There's a good reason we don't know,
Speaker 2: by the way, because these people have to be protected,
Speaker 2: whether they were as Raeli or they were not. But
Speaker 2: it's never as simple as we might think it to be.
Speaker 2: And it really shows just how impressive how much was
Speaker 2: invested in each of these targets and identifying, in locating.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll tell you something else, these nuclear scientists
Speaker 2: or the IRGC commanders. If you looked at some of
Speaker 2: those bombings on that initial day, you saw that like
Speaker 2: they dropped a bomb into a window in an apartment
Speaker 2: building on the fifth floor, right, they didn't take out
Speaker 2: the whole building. They took out the room and the corner,
Speaker 2: like the southwest corner. That means they had to know
Speaker 2: which apartment the guy lives in, where his bedroom is
Speaker 2: located in the apartment, and where his bed is probably
Speaker 2: is it on this side of the room or that
Speaker 2: side of the room, because they got to make sure
Speaker 2: the bomb goes into the room. And it's a level
Speaker 2: of granular intelligence detail that we kind of take for granted,
Speaker 2: but now that we think about it, how much has
Speaker 2: to be invested. People have to work on each one
Speaker 2: of these targets over a period of time. You have
Speaker 2: to track them, you have to learn and study what
Speaker 2: they do, where they go, who they meet with. It's
Speaker 2: incredible the detail of what has been able to be
Speaker 2: obtained here.
Speaker 1: I thought the project where they planted a bomb in
Speaker 1: the Islamic Revolutionary Guard guesthouse in the room which they
Speaker 1: assumed sooner or later a leader of Hamas would be
Speaker 1: a guest.
Speaker 2: You smell Hania.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you think through the complexities of that. At
Speaker 1: that moment, I thought, if if I were the Iranians,
Speaker 1: I would have a very deep sense of insecurity.
Speaker 2: And it could be anywhere. And that's exactly the point.
Speaker 2: And that's why I do think that the President to
Speaker 2: some extent is right. When I heard him speak at
Speaker 2: the NATO summit when he was asked, well, what if
Speaker 2: they rebuilt, and he said, they're not going to rebuild,
Speaker 2: And you know, he said that with a lot of confidence,
Speaker 2: and I hope he's right. But I do think is
Speaker 2: that if you are the supreme leader, and despite everything
Speaker 2: we've said before, that you're less than your conclusion is
Speaker 2: you need the nuclear weapon. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: you now know that they know everything about you, that
Speaker 2: they are everywhere they've being Israel in the United States,
Speaker 2: and that they can get you no matter where you are.
Speaker 2: Do you really want to do it?
Speaker 1: There's a brief moment where Trump talked about making Iran
Speaker 1: great again, But I've talked to several Iranian American billionaires
Speaker 1: who are very interested in finding a way ultimately to
Speaker 1: help create a dramatically more prosperous and desirable Iran. And
Speaker 1: I do wonder. And I noticed in the last few
Speaker 1: days that the Israelis had begun to shift towards much
Speaker 1: more focus on the security apparatus, having done the work
Speaker 1: they were doing on the missiles and the nuclear capability.
Speaker 1: And I do wonder whether or not, at some point,
Speaker 1: either in a split between the Islamic Revolutionary Guard and
Speaker 1: the army or just a sheer mass effort by the
Speaker 1: people at large, it may not be possible to move
Speaker 1: beyond the current dictatorship.
Speaker 2: What the Israelis did to an extent, they focused on
Speaker 2: those initial targets that we spoke about, you know, missile defense,
Speaker 2: ballistic missiles, and of course nuclear, But after those main
Speaker 2: targets were neutralized, they began to also focus on some
Speaker 2: of the regime targets, military targets and others. And the
Speaker 2: idea here was to weaken some of those regime I
Speaker 2: would say arrays and capabilities, whether it's the IERGC or
Speaker 2: the besiege which is kind of their more local domestic
Speaker 2: force that literally beats up people on the streets. That
Speaker 2: was aimed at trying to give the Uranian people some
Speaker 2: hope that they can actually go out to the streets
Speaker 2: and try to bring down this regime. One of the
Speaker 2: important points that Israel has made, I think consistently throughout
Speaker 2: this operation was that our issue is not with the
Speaker 2: people of Iran. The people of Iran are friends. The
Speaker 2: people of Iran, we share a rich mutual history, the
Speaker 2: Persian culture and the history of the Persian peoples. They're
Speaker 2: an ancient people really, of amazing capabilities and history. But
Speaker 2: the problem is they've been taken hostage by this radical
Speaker 2: Islamic entity and these iatolas, the mulahs. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: you remember, mister speaker, how before the revolution of seventy nine,
Speaker 2: Israel had an embassy into Tehran, right, I mean we
Speaker 2: were all doing business together. We had good friends there,
Speaker 2: they had good friends here. I mean that all changed
Speaker 2: when Homani came back from Paris and really took that
Speaker 2: country in a whole different direction. And I think that
Speaker 2: that's what gives a lot of people hope, is that
Speaker 2: the Uraanian people still for the most part, want to
Speaker 2: come back to the fold. They want to be part
Speaker 2: of the free worl old, and hopefully they can break
Speaker 2: free of this reign of terror and these tyrants who
Speaker 2: have been ruling them.
Speaker 1: Well, that's our hope. Let me ask you one last topic,
Speaker 1: which is very different, and I think maybe one of
Speaker 1: the hardest problems Israel faces. How do you ultimately get
Speaker 1: to stability in Gaza?
Speaker 2: It is still connected because the hope right now in
Speaker 2: Israel is that by weakening Iran, and Iran was the supplier,
Speaker 2: the funder, the provider to Ramas. By weakening Iran, you
Speaker 2: further isolate Ramas, and now Hamas is even more isolated,
Speaker 2: and therefore the hope is that we can reach a
Speaker 2: deal that will see the fifty hostages return. Twenty of
Speaker 2: them are believed to still be alive. The rest are
Speaker 2: unfortunately tragically no longer among the living. But Israel still
Speaker 2: fights to get back even the bodies of these hostages
Speaker 2: who have been held by Hamas for nearly two years.
Speaker 2: But really, then the question becomes, Okay, even if you've
Speaker 2: done that, how do you prevent Ramas from rebuilding? I mean,
Speaker 2: get similar questions and dilemmas to what we were just
Speaker 2: talking about. And here what's really needed is the creation
Speaker 2: of a new governing entity in Gaza. I think everyone
Speaker 2: understands that. The question is though, who will be that
Speaker 2: governing entity be? And this is where it gets really
Speaker 2: complicated because the current coalition in Israel, led by Nasenia,
Speaker 2: who in including some of the more right wing far
Speaker 2: right parties in Israel, refuse to even talk about the
Speaker 2: prospect or possibility that the Palestinian authority led by Mahmudubas
Speaker 2: in Ramala will have any role in the day after
Speaker 2: in Gaza. On the other hand, the Amordis and the
Speaker 2: Egyptians and the Saudis say if they're instant, the Palestinians,
Speaker 2: We're not going to come and help, so you're kind
Speaker 2: of stuck. And that's the bit of the conundrum at
Speaker 2: the moment. I think that Nizzenia, who understands that there
Speaker 2: really is not an alternative, and I think that hopefully
Speaker 2: he will show the same courage that he showed when
Speaker 2: launching this attack on June thirteenth against Iran. He has
Speaker 2: the opportunity now to show that same courage and end
Speaker 2: this war in Gaza and not only give Israelis the
Speaker 2: opportunity to heal, because it's difficult for this country to
Speaker 2: move on. You know, we're talking on a day that
Speaker 2: seven soldiers were announced killed in Gaza. Terrible tragedy, young
Speaker 2: Israeli soldiers, but the Palestinians have also suffered a great tragedy.
Speaker 2: We can't ignore that, right, you know, I think it's
Speaker 2: Kamas's fault, but the people of Gaza suffer and they
Speaker 2: deserve a better future as well. So Gaza has to
Speaker 2: be rehabilitated and rebuilt, and for that we need a
Speaker 2: new government and I don't want to see Israel do it,
Speaker 2: and I don't think Israel wants to do it, right,
Speaker 2: We don't want to have control of that place. It's
Speaker 2: a place that's not friendly to us, but we need
Speaker 2: to ensure that it is a government though, that is
Speaker 2: going to not just rebuild and not just govern, but
Speaker 2: also deradicalize. That has to be a piece of this.
Speaker 2: And if we can really lead to a deradicalization, that
Speaker 2: would change textbooks, would change, newspapers, would change culture, would
Speaker 2: change the way they talk about us. And that's going
Speaker 2: to be tough, but it can be done. The opportunities
Speaker 2: have no limits, because that's how you achieve real peace.
Speaker 2: We got to deradicalize. So there's a lot of moving
Speaker 2: parts here. But I think that we need to come
Speaker 2: aus to agree to ceasefire. We need to come as
Speaker 2: to give us back the hostages, and we need our
Speaker 2: government in Jerusalem to accept the reality that whether we
Speaker 2: like it or not, there's going to have to be
Speaker 2: some Palestinian guy who's involved in the day after in Gaza.
Speaker 1: Last question, how likely do you think it is that
Speaker 1: the ceasefire will hold or is this just a temporary pause.
Speaker 2: I think it will hold as long as Iran does
Speaker 2: not try and rebuild, or we don't get intelligence that
Speaker 2: shows that they're working on a bomb somewhere in the basement.
Speaker 2: Israel has achieved its goals of this operation, and that
Speaker 2: was to set back Iran's nuclear pro for a number
Speaker 2: of years, and that seems to have been achieved. But
Speaker 2: the Iranians now the ball's in their court. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's why it's so important that the president
Speaker 2: doesn't lose focus, because sometimes that can't happen. You finish
Speaker 2: one thing and you jump ready to the next thing.
Speaker 2: I don't blame him, He's got a lot of different
Speaker 2: balls up in the air all at once. But we're
Speaker 2: not done yet with iron We need that follow up,
Speaker 2: you know. And you know this, sir. You know, military
Speaker 2: means really important. They can help get the job done,
Speaker 2: but they're not alone going to get the job done.
Speaker 2: You need to have that political process that does follow up.
Speaker 2: And this is the opportunity. Now they're weak, they're hurt,
Speaker 2: they're bleeding. Get them back to the table, squeeze them
Speaker 2: for a better deal, give them some carrots along the way.
Speaker 2: But you got that big stick you can still hold
Speaker 2: and say to them, listen, if you guys don't play ball,
Speaker 2: what you saw at those seven B two bombers and
Speaker 2: those twelve or fourteen GBU fifty seven massive ordinance penetrators
Speaker 2: is just the beginning in.
Speaker 1: The ability to crush the regime. We have massive capabilities
Speaker 1: if we have to. This is I think potentially the
Speaker 1: turning point which could potentially lead to a dramatically better
Speaker 1: Middle East. I think we still have to roll up
Speaker 1: our sleeves and recognize it. There's a lot of work
Speaker 1: between here and getting an Iran which is sustainable as
Speaker 1: a neighbor and not slipping back into the theocratic dictatorship's
Speaker 1: desires to destroy Israel the United States. But I want
Speaker 1: you to know Yokov, that I want to thank you
Speaker 1: for joining and providing an update, and I will continue
Speaker 1: to read virtually everything you write. And I want to
Speaker 1: remind our listeners that your new book, While Israel Slept
Speaker 1: how Hamas Surprise, The Most Powerful Military in the Least
Speaker 1: is available for pre order from Amazon right now and
Speaker 1: will be out this September. And once it comes out,
Speaker 1: I'd love it if you could come back and discuss
Speaker 1: both the book and wherever we are at that point
Speaker 1: in the process. But thank you. You are a remarkably
Speaker 1: helpful student of what's going on in the Middle East.
Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. It's always a pleasure and honor to
Speaker 2: be with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Yakov Katz. You can learn
Speaker 1: more about the Israel Iran conflict on our show page
Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gagers three
Speaker 1: sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsei Sloan. Our
Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was
Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at
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