WEBVTT - Better Offline: A conversation with Ed Zitron

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,

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<v Speaker 1>and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and How the

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<v Speaker 1>tech are You. I've got a special episode today. I've

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<v Speaker 1>got a fellow podcaster in the studio with me, virtually

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<v Speaker 1>Ed Zetron, who has the better offline podcast. If y'all

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<v Speaker 1>think that I cast a critical eye at the tech industry,

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<v Speaker 1>strap in, because Ed, you know, I give him the business.

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<v Speaker 1>But I've listened to your show and it's gloves off

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<v Speaker 1>when you start.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't help myself. I have to because everyone's angry

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<v Speaker 2>at tech right now. Everyone is so angry, and I

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<v Speaker 2>get emails about it saying, oh, you've really put into

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<v Speaker 2>words so I feel. And I think it's just I

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<v Speaker 2>am naturally pissed off. I guess very much, just a

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<v Speaker 2>natural fury.

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm a gen xer, so I'm a little older,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think the natural cynicism that I possess has

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<v Speaker 1>sort of dulled me to the point where I'm angry.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm also tired supposed to being angry. I've been

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<v Speaker 1>angry since the early eighties. Yeah, I mean, you grow

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<v Speaker 1>up in that Cold War era and you really start

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<v Speaker 1>you learn how to be angry. But I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about your show and about its genesis and sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the process of you know, how you came about

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about doing a podcast and the sort of things

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<v Speaker 1>that specifically inspired you. I'd love to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>episode that published most recently as we record this, where

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<v Speaker 1>you talked about the metaverse, because it's something that I share.

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<v Speaker 1>All the feelings that you express in that episode I've

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<v Speaker 1>talked about on this show as well, which is largely

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<v Speaker 1>about how infuriating it is to have this ill defined

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<v Speaker 1>concept take over to an extent where you feel you're

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<v Speaker 1>just screaming into the void. Why are you doing? Why

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<v Speaker 1>are you spending money? Why are these businesses jumping into it?

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<v Speaker 1>But you can say the same thing about NFTs, you

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<v Speaker 1>can say the same thing about AI and he did, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and you continue you will continue to do so. But

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about that, Let's talk about sort of what

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<v Speaker 1>your background is and then leading into the creation of

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<v Speaker 1>the Better Offline podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>So in twenty twenty, I was as many people were

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<v Speaker 2>getting quite depressed, and it was because I wasn't writing

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<v Speaker 2>as well as the world burning around us. So I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to start a newsletter. I had two hundred subscribers,

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred maybe, and most of them, I'm pretty sure

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<v Speaker 2>with dead emails. But I started writing about tech stuff

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<v Speaker 2>because I've be running a PR firm for about twelve years,

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<v Speaker 2>and a tech PR firm specifically, so I've seen all

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<v Speaker 2>these things up close. And then during twenty twenty, I

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<v Speaker 2>was writing a lot about return to office, and that

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<v Speaker 2>felt like I was screaming into the void as well.

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<v Speaker 3>People were saying.

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<v Speaker 2>From like July, oh no, even like May Well, We've

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<v Speaker 2>got to get back to the office, but no one

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<v Speaker 2>could say why. There were all these articles Wall Street Journal,

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times talking about the office is better, the

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<v Speaker 2>office is better, and it was always talking to executives,

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<v Speaker 2>and that really began to joke afire me a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, ah, I don't like this, and people

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<v Speaker 2>were reading it. People were responding really well. But I

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<v Speaker 2>remember the thing that the first time it really took

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<v Speaker 2>off was this thing called Clubhouse. Clubhouse was I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if you remember, so everyone in the tech industry

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<v Speaker 2>was saying clubhouse is the future. Clubhouse is the future.

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<v Speaker 2>What Clubhouse was was basically a live podcast show. It's

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<v Speaker 2>Twitter spaces, that's all. It is a live voice chat

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<v Speaker 2>thing where any number of speakers can speak at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time. And what happened was Andrewson Horowitz major venture

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<v Speaker 2>capital firm, and Mark Andresen himself were really trying to

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<v Speaker 2>push this through. They were pushing every tech person, every

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<v Speaker 2>celebrity they knew to use this platform, and everyone was

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<v Speaker 2>talking about it and saying this is the future. And

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't tell how because last time I checked, radio

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<v Speaker 2>existed and everyone was talking about this thing, saying it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be worth billions, and it was allegedly a

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<v Speaker 2>four billion dollar offer. And I kept writing, just saying,

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<v Speaker 2>this is vaporware. This isn't the thing. There is no

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<v Speaker 2>there was no revenue, there was no monetization strategy. There

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<v Speaker 2>really wasn't a point to it. And also tech people

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<v Speaker 2>are frightfully boring. So hearing these ultra rich buffoons.

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<v Speaker 3>Going, oh, well, you know, the innovations are very important,

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<v Speaker 3>and they'd ramble on and on.

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<v Speaker 2>It was dull, but people were flocking to it. And

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<v Speaker 2>then one day they just stopped. They just stopped using it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I did a few like aha moments where I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, ah, gotcha, and then I got quoted in

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<v Speaker 2>like Wired, and I was like, oh, okay, this is cool.

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<v Speaker 2>But I kept writing because I enjoyed it. And also

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of see both sides. I see the business

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<v Speaker 2>side and I see the journalism side. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>a games journalist before this, and so I just kept

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<v Speaker 2>writing about the stuff and I kept calling it as

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<v Speaker 2>I see it because it was an independent newsletter, and

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<v Speaker 2>it went from two hundred people to fourth out like

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<v Speaker 2>one thousand to four thousand subscribers. It's twenty three thousand today,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it became a big thing. And I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>I like writing a lot, and I can write very fast.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to do three or four a week. I

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<v Speaker 2>have no idea how I had that output. Now I

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<v Speaker 2>just do once a week when I can make it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I write in the way that I grew up

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<v Speaker 2>reading and seeing on television. In England, there was generally

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<v Speaker 2>a more critical approach to journalism, but there was more opinion,

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<v Speaker 2>and when the opinion ran, there wasn't really afraid of

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<v Speaker 2>leaving a few black eyes. As long as you punched up,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't attack the people below, you, attack the executives,

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<v Speaker 2>the sun duper shies of the world, Google's alphabet CEO

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<v Speaker 2>guy who makes two hundred and twenty million dollars a

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<v Speaker 2>year and lays off thousands of people and drives Google

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<v Speaker 2>Search into the ground. These are things that people see

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<v Speaker 2>and people.

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<v Speaker 3>Are angry about.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think I'm good at putting that into words

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<v Speaker 2>for better.

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<v Speaker 3>Words there.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess sure. It's such a valuable asset to have

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<v Speaker 1>because to your point, in your various podcasts and hearing

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<v Speaker 1>you talk and meetings and things, you know, we got

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of quote unquote tech journalism that's not really

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<v Speaker 1>journalism at all. It's essentially regurgitating press releases, which doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>have any value to it. You could just go and

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<v Speaker 1>read the press release if that's what you wanted to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's only a few outlets that go any further

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<v Speaker 1>than that, and I find them incredibly valuable. But unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>those are like the exceptions rather than the rule. And

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<v Speaker 1>actually we could even talk about tech's effect on journalism

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<v Speaker 1>and how that has played a huge part in this

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<v Speaker 1>and that it has devalued journalism to large extent. There's

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<v Speaker 1>the infamous pivot to video moment we could talk about like,

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<v Speaker 1>there's so much that ends up being wrapped up in this.

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<v Speaker 1>It becomes a lot of inside baseball for folks who

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<v Speaker 1>work in the industry. But it's important to recognize so

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<v Speaker 1>that when I do something like advocate for critical thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>people have those assets that they can go to that

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<v Speaker 1>help train them on this and not just throwing them

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<v Speaker 1>into the deep end of the pool and saying think

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<v Speaker 1>critically and you'll be fine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what does thinking critical look like? Tech journalism as

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<v Speaker 2>a whole has got more critical. On the broadcast side,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of tech podcasts are very right leaning right now.

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<v Speaker 2>The two most successful ones the All In Podcast and

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<v Speaker 2>Lex Fridmund's And Lex Fridman is a right wing so

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<v Speaker 2>it is the all In guys. David sax Is a

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<v Speaker 2>pro Russia goon. Jason Kalakanis isn't much better. These guys

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<v Speaker 2>are controlling the airwaves to some extent. But a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of that is because a lot of the tech industry

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<v Speaker 2>thinks that what media in tech should do is positive.

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<v Speaker 2>It should be rah rah, and we should only criticize

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<v Speaker 2>a few things when we kind of feel like here

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<v Speaker 2>versus what people want, which is an explanation as to

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<v Speaker 2>why things aren't working right. They want to understand the

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<v Speaker 2>decisions that people are making. Something you've done very what

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<v Speaker 2>was You've explained why things are the way they are,

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<v Speaker 2>how things have got places when Google was a search

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<v Speaker 2>company versus an AD's company. People don't know these things.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a need for things like how your iPhone works.

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<v Speaker 2>Rich Deimiro Katla excellent guy, great radio host as well.

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<v Speaker 2>He does very good like how to avoid scam stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>That kind of journalism is extremely valuable. Steve Noviello and

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<v Speaker 2>Houston on Fox another great guy for this, that's very valuable.

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<v Speaker 2>But otherwise, tech journalism is growing into an industry. It's

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<v Speaker 2>growing into something that critiques things and says, here are

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<v Speaker 2>what the powerful people are doing. But I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>that there's enough just explaining why the world is the

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<v Speaker 2>way it is and showing the emotion the anger you

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<v Speaker 2>need to because this stuff Google Search being worse is horrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>It's something that hits billions of people. You should be angry.

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<v Speaker 2>You're angry. I'm angry. This should be front page news

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<v Speaker 2>everywhere except Google put out a thing saying, oh, we're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna fix search we're gonna make it better, and everyone's like, great,

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<v Speaker 2>Google's good. Now they're not. They haven't done anything well.

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<v Speaker 1>And if it were a front page news, you never

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<v Speaker 1>find it because you've put it in Google Search and

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<v Speaker 1>it wouldn't come exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>You get three different seo spam sites.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's fascinating to me because I can actually, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously this isn't a new thing. I can see patterns

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<v Speaker 1>of this kind of cycle where if you start asking

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<v Speaker 1>questions and you start coming up with answers, you start

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<v Speaker 1>to see kind of the cynical background that's fueling things

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<v Speaker 1>within the tech industry. I'm reminded when I first started

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<v Speaker 1>getting into tech podcasting, it was in two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Two thousand and eight was around the time where all

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<v Speaker 1>the different television manufacturing companies were all pushing three D

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<v Speaker 1>televisions and you start to ask the question, why why

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<v Speaker 1>are you pushing three D TV? And if you start

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<v Speaker 1>coming up with answers, Well, one, you've got the various

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<v Speaker 1>studios out there that are really keen on the idea

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<v Speaker 1>of creating a format that is very difficult to pirate,

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<v Speaker 1>and so therefore they have an incentive to push the

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<v Speaker 1>three D technology, and then you've got the manufacturers who

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<v Speaker 1>they need to come up with ways to differentiate this

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<v Speaker 1>year's models from last year's models. It's not just good

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<v Speaker 1>enough to out with another TV that does what last

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<v Speaker 1>year's TV does, and you can't just constantly push resolution

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<v Speaker 1>year over year. So there were all these very cynical

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<v Speaker 1>reasons for it, and ultimately the response from consumers was

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't want this.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's a fascinating one, though, because I remember that

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight was actually when I moved to

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<v Speaker 2>America and I moved into the tech industry. And the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing that you're completely right about is you'll notice

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<v Speaker 2>you didn't mention the filmmakers. The filmmakers were just like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want I don't want to do this. This

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't sound like it will make the movie better unless

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<v Speaker 2>I'm making Shrek. Shrek was one of the few the

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<v Speaker 2>minions movies I think much later, obviously, Yeah, but that

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<v Speaker 2>was really one of those times where I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>I saw it at the time quite as clearly as

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<v Speaker 2>you did, but you're right, that was one of those times.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like this something he's being done to consumers

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<v Speaker 2>rather than for them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they were trying to pull a Steve Jobs, who

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<v Speaker 1>was obviously brilliant at convincing people they needed something that

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<v Speaker 1>they probable. Guy though, listen, we're not going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about getting on this podcast because that was a thing

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<v Speaker 1>at Apple, I know. But yeah, well probably know people

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<v Speaker 1>who got jobs at one point that was when you

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<v Speaker 1>would walk in and Steve Jobs would fire you on

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<v Speaker 1>the spot for some minor thing. Anyway, what he was

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<v Speaker 1>really good at was convincing people that they wanted a product,

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<v Speaker 1>or that a product that he had on offer was

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<v Speaker 1>going to solve a problem they didn't even know they

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<v Speaker 1>had before. And partly why he was able to create

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<v Speaker 1>entirely new markets. I don't want to discount all the

0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.679
<v Speaker 1>other people who also put in a huge amount of work,

0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:31.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, Johnny Ives and all that kind of stuff.

0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.840
<v Speaker 1>But the industry was trying to copy what he was

0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.520
<v Speaker 1>able to do, and they just weren't able to achieve it.

0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.680
<v Speaker 1>They were not able to convince the market that three

0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.000
<v Speaker 1>D television was really a valuable thing. There was the

0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.000
<v Speaker 1>issue that there wasn't that much content in the beginning

0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:48.480
<v Speaker 1>to really grab people.

0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.680
<v Speaker 2>This still isn't Apple on the vision pro is still

0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.679
<v Speaker 2>trying to convince you to get three D content.

0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I mean when you look at some of

0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.520
<v Speaker 1>the ones that came out, like there were a few

0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.960
<v Speaker 1>obvious standouts that showed spectacle and how spectacle could be effect.

0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.959
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Avatar is it's impossible to argue like it

0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.000
<v Speaker 1>was the top grossing film of all time and in

0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.640
<v Speaker 1>part was because of the spectacle of this three dimensional

0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.079
<v Speaker 1>filmmaking approach. But then you had things like the Hobbit series,

0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.840
<v Speaker 1>which certainly did not capture imaginations the same way Avatar did,

0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 1>despite the fact that it was three D and forty

0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.320
<v Speaker 1>eight frames per second film making pushing the envelope, saying

0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.000
<v Speaker 1>this is the future of film, and people said, yeah,

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 1>can we make it? Not that because I don't like

0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.120
<v Speaker 1>the Hobbits looking like they're acting in a Mexican soap opera.

0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:36.560
<v Speaker 1>It's just not appealing to me.

0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.040
<v Speaker 2>But also just no one wanted it. No one was

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 2>saying that being like I wish this movie was more

0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 2>in front of me.

0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, or that it was three times longer than it

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.080
<v Speaker 1>needed to be. Yeah, oh god, yeah.

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:49.200
<v Speaker 3>We won't go.

0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 1>So I also have a Lord of the Rings tattoo,

0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.160
<v Speaker 1>so I'm not even gonna go into my disdain for

0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.120
<v Speaker 1>the Hobbit films, but that, to me is an example

0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.400
<v Speaker 1>of sort of the things that are going on behind

0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.840
<v Speaker 1>the scenes that you may not necessarily be aware of

0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.160
<v Speaker 1>as a consumer or just you know, part of the

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 1>mainstream public. And that's why I find podcasts like Better

0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Offline really valuable, because what you're doing is you're asking

0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.320
<v Speaker 1>the questions and peeling back the layers and saying, not

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.720
<v Speaker 1>only does this thing not make sense, but you need

0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.200
<v Speaker 1>to understand the motivations behind why it's a thing in

0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 1>the first place, and why you should question it and

0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.600
<v Speaker 1>why you might feel uneasy toward it. Like I again,

0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.320
<v Speaker 1>I think to NFTs as being a great example of

0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the thing that everyone who was already invested in the

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.600
<v Speaker 1>crypto world, we're desperate to convince you this is a

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.439
<v Speaker 1>valuable thing enough so that companies were jumping in without

0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 1>really understanding what NFTs were. I think I think most

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.960
<v Speaker 1>companies still don't understand what NFTs are, and everyone was

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.280
<v Speaker 1>getting that feeling of am I actually missing out? Is

0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.200
<v Speaker 1>this going to be a case of not investing early

0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.520
<v Speaker 1>on and I'm going to miss out on a huge opportunity,

0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.439
<v Speaker 1>and of course, we saw the bottom drop out of

0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 1>NFTs at the end of that EA, and it hasn't

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 1>recovered since, which suggests that the people who were skeptical

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.000
<v Speaker 1>and expressing caution were right all along. That to me

0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.440
<v Speaker 1>is where the value for a show like Better Offline

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>really comes in, because it teaches you to ask those

0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 1>questions yourself, even if you haven't done an episode about

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:19.040
<v Speaker 1>that specific topic yet.

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of it is as well that people

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.800
<v Speaker 2>are a lot smarter than they think they are with

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.160
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. And I think the tech industry is done

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and the marketers especially have done a really good job

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.160
<v Speaker 2>making people feel that they won't understand there are algorithms

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 2>and powers at play that you just simply could not

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 2>on Stay You don't understand NFTs, and that's why you

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>will have fun staying Poor or Crypto the same deal,

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.840
<v Speaker 2>when ultimately with Crypto they claim to be making decentralized

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 2>software and they weren't. The software does not work, None

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.520
<v Speaker 2>of it is good. Axioinfinity is allegedly like a Pokemon clone.

0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 2>It costs like one thousand dollars just to start, and

0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.280
<v Speaker 2>by the way, it's a terrible game. It's not good.

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 2>A lot of guys rich though, And that's the thing.

0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 2>When people understand the incentives and the actual basic things.

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people can understand tech way more.

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know this, You've been doing this podcast for

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 2>a long time. People are way more aware of this stuff.

0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.240
<v Speaker 2>But there is almost a deliberate obfuscation at times, and

0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I find it reprehensible. I find it very annoying. And

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the reason the Metaverse episode got me so angry was

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I remember everyone trying to explain to me, Hey ed

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 2>virtual worlds of the future, and I looked them dead

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 2>in the iron and said, I was literally like the

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>second guy in England who wrote about massively multiplayer online RPGs.

0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>I know these things, and I've known them for a

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>long time. I played Meridium fifty nine and I know this.

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 2>I played Ultimore Online. I know this stuff. What you

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>were describing is the stuff that I was playing on

0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 2>a PCMIA card. So please tell me how this is different.

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.080
<v Speaker 2>And they couldn't. It was a big lie, and I

0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 2>think everyone saw it at the time, but the media

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 2>fell for it. There were so many there were Wall

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.160
<v Speaker 2>Street Journal, New York Times, Time Magazine, all of these

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.440
<v Speaker 2>places saying the metaverse is here, The metaverse is here everyone,

0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:07.400
<v Speaker 2>and it wasn't.

0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it was reminding me if you go back

0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.880
<v Speaker 1>a decade of discussions of the semantic web, the semantic web.

0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, I haven't saw about the semantic web in forever,

0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 2>I know, But it's essentially I mean, it has a

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of the same groundwork as as the metaverse does.

0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Right, it doesn't necessarily incorporate a virtual world, but then

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.680
<v Speaker 1>arguably neither does the metaverse because the word doesn't mean anything,

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>so like the metaverse could involve a virtual world, or

0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.960
<v Speaker 1>you could be talking about something entirely different. It all

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 1>depends upon how.

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.200
<v Speaker 2>I saw Microsoft teams referring to itself as ye verse.

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 3>I got that was when it's not nope, yes enough, it's.

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Not just frustrating, it's destructive. When you see enterprises jump

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 1>in on these trending ideas that are not fully baked

0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 1>and convincing people, whether it's it's employees or partners or investors,

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.520
<v Speaker 1>that this is the future when clearly no one has

0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.919
<v Speaker 1>a really firm grip on what they're even talking about,

0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.560
<v Speaker 1>and it's such a massive waste of resources. And when

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.600
<v Speaker 1>you sit there, when you see when tech works well,

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.600
<v Speaker 1>when tech is doing its job and actually making things

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.679
<v Speaker 1>easier or better, and you sit there and think, what

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.439
<v Speaker 1>if we took all that wasted time and effort and

0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.480
<v Speaker 1>we had actually dedicated it to enterprises that could benefit people,

0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.080
<v Speaker 1>where would we be now? Like, those are the questions

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.800
<v Speaker 1>that get me angry. I still rant about it, and.

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>A lot of it comes down to something are called

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the rot economy, where we are in a world where

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>companies are evaluated in the public markets and at times

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.919
<v Speaker 2>the private markets based on growth, not based on what

0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 2>they produce, whether they have happy customers, whether they are

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.400
<v Speaker 2>making a sustainable income, whether they could do the same

0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 2>thing for another three years and may be fine, No,

0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.320
<v Speaker 2>you must grow ten twenty percent a year, which is

0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 2>why Microsoft jumped on the metaverse wagon. Disney same deal

0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and then drop them the moment things look bad, and hey,

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.960
<v Speaker 2>you know who also dropped the metaverse meta They also

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 2>moved itward. They went fro him in twenty twenty two

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.159
<v Speaker 2>talk about the metaverse being the most important thing to

0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three being the year of efficiency, and that

0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 2>AI was where Boz and Zuck were now facing themselves.

0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.159
<v Speaker 2>And he'll still claim that the metaverse is around, but

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just that is the symptom of an economy that

0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't build technology for people, but builds technology to sell

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 2>to investors. And that's where we're going right now. And

0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 2>that's the scary thing. Tech can be great and a

0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:33.320
<v Speaker 2>big thing better off on I'm trying not to do

0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.919
<v Speaker 2>is not to be just endlessly cynical. I'm angry, and

0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.679
<v Speaker 2>you should be angry. But I don't hate tech. I

0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.880
<v Speaker 2>hate some people in tech. I find Mark Zuckerberg truly disgusting.

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Same with Steve Jobs, staying with Elon Musk, all of

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.120
<v Speaker 2>these people are not working for people. They are working

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.119
<v Speaker 2>for investors in themselves. And Steve Jobs was an evil

0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.120
<v Speaker 2>cret in listened to Behind the Bastards if you want

0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.440
<v Speaker 2>to know more. But at the very least he made

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 2>stuff for people. He had an inherent sense of like,

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.720
<v Speaker 2>this feels good in the hand, This UIUX situation is satisfying.

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.840
<v Speaker 2>They can now do this and that will make me

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 2>lots of money. He was good at that. Tim Cook less,

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 2>so he's better, and he's better than a lot of

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the rest of them. But Sundar Pishai, he doesn't give

0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.080
<v Speaker 2>a rat's ass about any of this he wants to

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.080
<v Speaker 2>see Google grows. It was two hundred and twenty three

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.199
<v Speaker 2>million in twenty twenty two, two hundred and eighty and

0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.439
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one year off of the pandemic, millions of

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.800
<v Speaker 2>people dying, and he's becomes one of the richest guys.

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.240
<v Speaker 2>Really really sad, especially because Google Search has got so bad.

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 2>And I think the big difference is it no longer

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.520
<v Speaker 2>feels like a fair trade. We're no longer in situation

0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.199
<v Speaker 2>where they're making cool stuff and we're okay with them

0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.240
<v Speaker 2>getting rich doing so because they're making bad stuff and

0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 2>getting richer.

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.679
<v Speaker 1>And getting richer ed. And I will be back to

0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.200
<v Speaker 1>rant a lot more, but first, let's take a quick

0:19:52.200 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 1>break to think our sponsors. Google in particular is a

0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.960
<v Speaker 1>tricky topic simply because even in its good years, it

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 1>was a company that seemed like it was throw anything

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 1>at the wall and hope that things stick. And even

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.200
<v Speaker 1>if things stuck, you weren't guaranteed to have that product

0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:19.960
<v Speaker 1>last for more than a few years before Google would

0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 1>either discontinue it or you know, cannibalize it for parts

0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 1>and put it into other existing Google features. Like I

0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.880
<v Speaker 1>talked recently about Google Wave, a product that was, oh,

0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Google Wave good for maybe two people, and it was

0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.600
<v Speaker 1>me and my co host because.

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.640
<v Speaker 3>Because we were so cool. But it was useless.

0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:39.719
<v Speaker 1>It was it was useless except we would use it

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.679
<v Speaker 1>to literally build run of show for a live streaming

0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 1>show we did once a week, and for that it

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 1>was perfect. And I said, I literally can't think of

0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 1>another use case for this particular tool.

0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:50.480
<v Speaker 3>The thing.

0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Imagine if they'd have built Discord instead, which is basically mIRC,

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 2>which is a twenty thirty year old piece of free software.

0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, So even in Google's you know heyday, when

0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 1>the Don't Be Evil was still at least nodded to.

0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.359
<v Speaker 1>It was a tricky place, but at least you felt

0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.920
<v Speaker 1>like they were sincere. I felt that it was a

0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of engineers building tools for other engineers, not necessarily

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.679
<v Speaker 1>for the general public. If you weren't an engineer. It

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.680
<v Speaker 1>wasn't nearly user or friendly enough. But I felt like

0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 1>they believed in what they did. I don't necessarily feel

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.400
<v Speaker 1>that today, largely for the same reasons you've mentioned.

0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's a big thing that happened in twenty nineteen.

0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Twenty twenty. Ben Gomes, who was the head of Google

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Search at the time he was Actually he put out

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:39.640
<v Speaker 2>there was an event at Google called Code Yellow, where

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:41.920
<v Speaker 2>basically they realized that the search had a problem, and

0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.639
<v Speaker 2>he put out an alert warning saying the Google Ads

0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.359
<v Speaker 2>site is getting too close to search. They keep trying

0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.240
<v Speaker 2>to mess with him. Twenty twenty, Prabakar Rakavan takes over

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 2>his former job head of Ads at Google. That's what happened, folks.

0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.000
<v Speaker 1>This it's not a bug, it's a feature. Yeah, it's

0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 1>not a problem, it's a goal.

0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 2>And what was funny was at the time Prova CoV

0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, yeah, yeah, God's doing a great job

0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:06.960
<v Speaker 2>with search.

0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:08.879
<v Speaker 3>Great job man. Zip.

0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Now Google Search sucks so bad. Yeah, it's so And

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.240
<v Speaker 2>that's the thing. That's the emails I get about the

0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Row Economy episode, where it's like, thank you for saying

0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.399
<v Speaker 2>that I'm being confused this whole time. These things feel

0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 2>very obvious to those of us who were extremely online,

0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.800
<v Speaker 2>who were doused in this every day. But I don't

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.119
<v Speaker 2>think most people realize because there's so much happening, and

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.080
<v Speaker 2>to your point earlier, Google news is not particularly useful.

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:36.639
<v Speaker 2>News is not something that's very well spread these days.

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Sure, yeah, I mean, well, I'm not gonna open up

0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:41.639
<v Speaker 1>the can of worms, because I totally could. But this

0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:43.920
<v Speaker 1>is it's making me want to start talking about things

0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:47.440
<v Speaker 1>like recommendation algorithms and the evils they present. But we've

0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.679
<v Speaker 1>done I've done tons of episodes, but I've done a

0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 1>lot that. Yeah, I don't need to retread that ground,

0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.960
<v Speaker 1>but there are big problems that I think need to

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.680
<v Speaker 1>be recognized and addressed. I don't know what the solutions

0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.640
<v Speaker 1>are because when I look at the issues of you're

0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.160
<v Speaker 1>running a company specifically to keep shareholders happy, right, rather

0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.919
<v Speaker 1>than to see any other corporate mission through. That to me,

0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.160
<v Speaker 1>has its roots deep in the again the nineteen eighties,

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.119
<v Speaker 1>like there I grew up, and like that's where that

0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.320
<v Speaker 1>kind of really started to take hold thanks to like

0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 1>people like Jack Welch and stuff and areas outside of tech.

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:22.879
<v Speaker 1>But the tech industry seems to have really taken that

0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:23.879
<v Speaker 1>ball and run with it.

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>They're rewarded for it by the markets, of course, is

0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:28.480
<v Speaker 2>very profitable.

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.280
<v Speaker 1>It's what makes me have to ask questions too, that

0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.600
<v Speaker 1>even when I'm hearing things that on the surface sound

0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 1>beneficial or benign, I started asking questions and then it

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.600
<v Speaker 1>turns out there's a darker side to it. So, for example,

0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:48.960
<v Speaker 1>open AI and the push for regulations in AI, Like

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.240
<v Speaker 1>that sounds great, you know, the idea of, oh, we

0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:56.160
<v Speaker 1>have a dominant company in generative AI that's advocating for

0:23:56.280 --> 0:24:01.480
<v Speaker 1>the purposes of creating regulations rules for AI. That sounds

0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:04.320
<v Speaker 1>like that's good. Like that seems like that's within the

0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 1>actual mission statement of the original open AI, which was

0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:15.200
<v Speaker 1>presumably created to make responsible artificial intelligence implementations and avoid

0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:17.040
<v Speaker 1>all the pitfalls that we worry about.

0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.359
<v Speaker 2>Whether it's you know, except you were basically letting a

0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 2>murderer at that point dictate his own sentence.

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you're you're letting the person who would most benefit

0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.760
<v Speaker 1>from making the rules make the rules right, which could

0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:32.199
<v Speaker 1>very well mean that, oh, let's make rules so that

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.120
<v Speaker 1>it suppresses anyone else who's getting into the AI game,

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 1>giving us an even greater advantage in the market than

0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.240
<v Speaker 1>we already have while impacting us the bare minimum amount.

0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:46.560
<v Speaker 1>And it starts sounding like you're getting into fringe theories,

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.800
<v Speaker 1>but that's really what's going on. It's really it's really

0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 1>the truth that you're talking about people who they have

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.360
<v Speaker 1>such a huge stake in the game, And I think

0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 1>that kind of applies to pretty much everything we've talked about.

0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.840
<v Speaker 1>They have such a huge steak, that's the full and

0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.240
<v Speaker 1>centive for them to do this. It may sound on

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.920
<v Speaker 1>the surface to be like this very kind of gracious approach,

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.679
<v Speaker 1>but in reality it's very self serving.

0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's kind of like the entire open ai nonprofit

0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:16.199
<v Speaker 2>side that when Sam Altman was elvested, was proven to

0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:19.639
<v Speaker 2>be completely ineffectual. People should be really angry about that.

0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.439
<v Speaker 2>What happened there was Sam Oltman was kicked out for

0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:23.800
<v Speaker 2>reasons we still do not know.

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 3>We really do not know.

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:27.800
<v Speaker 2>That's never come out. However, what happened was pressure from

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:32.280
<v Speaker 2>venture capitalists and Microsoft, a three trillion dollar tech firm,

0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:35.000
<v Speaker 2>was used to put him back in. The pressure was done.

0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 2>That should That is one of the darker things I've

0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:40.640
<v Speaker 2>seen happen in the tech industry. And I saw journalists

0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.960
<v Speaker 2>saying this is beautiful. That scared me. That scared me

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:48.240
<v Speaker 2>more than anything I've seen in this industry when you see.

0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:49.800
<v Speaker 1>That the other people who are on the board were

0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:51.960
<v Speaker 1>members of the co founding group that came up with

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.000
<v Speaker 1>the idea of open ai in the first place.

0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And the people on the board were replaced by Larry Summers. Yeah,

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:01.719
<v Speaker 2>you want some gen x cynicism. Yeah, Harry bloody Sommers.

0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Adam DiAngelo, the co founder of Qura, he's still on

0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the board. Cora is currently full of open ai stuff

0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:11.639
<v Speaker 2>ruining the platform. People don't realize this is the stuff

0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.840
<v Speaker 2>that matters. These moments are the things to be angry about.

0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 1>Right and when people like the members of the former

0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:23.120
<v Speaker 1>board are trying to take action in order to get

0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:26.199
<v Speaker 1>back on the track that was originally intended when they

0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:28.800
<v Speaker 1>were first forming open Ai, you know what they get

0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:32.880
<v Speaker 1>for their their efforts is this huge backlash that was

0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:36.800
<v Speaker 1>exacerbated by the media coverage of it, and then forced

0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:40.720
<v Speaker 1>to not only reinstate Altman, but to step down as well.

0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Right like, you had co founders having stepped.

0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Down and replaced with Larry goddamn Summers and one of

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:51.480
<v Speaker 2>the sales force guys. Just like, replace them, Just replace

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:54.360
<v Speaker 2>them with Darth Vader, just go, just go the whole way,

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.840
<v Speaker 2>replace them with replace them with David Petraeus. Why not

0:26:58.359 --> 0:27:02.200
<v Speaker 2>just go the whole damn way. I'm sure they considered

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.439
<v Speaker 2>Contaliza Rice m so they now have something in common

0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:06.640
<v Speaker 2>with the Cleveland Browns.

0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:10.480
<v Speaker 1>This totally off topic, but I'm reminded of the time.

0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm a huge fan of the Disney parks because I

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:17.199
<v Speaker 1>went to them as a kid. So even as an adult,

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:20.560
<v Speaker 1>while I recognized the shortcomings of the Disney Company, the

0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.160
<v Speaker 1>parks have a special place in nostalgia in my heart.

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:26.480
<v Speaker 1>It's not that different from today, honestly, but this happened,

0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:28.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, back in the nineties. There was a time

0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:33.080
<v Speaker 1>period where Disney had replaced the executive level of leadership

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:37.520
<v Speaker 1>for the Disney parks with retail leaders so people from

0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 1>like the Banana Republican Gap, and that was a time

0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:43.080
<v Speaker 1>where they started to do things like gut all the

0:27:43.119 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 1>stuff that gave character to the Disney parks and replace

0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:48.280
<v Speaker 1>them with stores, and to take out some of the

0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:52.000
<v Speaker 1>other attractions and to put in like quick service food

0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.800
<v Speaker 1>carts because they were much higher profit margins, right like

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.240
<v Speaker 1>they were running it like they were running a retail business.

0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.560
<v Speaker 1>And it started to take away a lot of the

0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:04.840
<v Speaker 1>charm that had been there in the parks. And to me,

0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 1>like I recognize a lot of that same sort of

0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:10.520
<v Speaker 1>stuff going on in the tech world in general, like

0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:13.880
<v Speaker 1>even tools that maybe once upon a time you liked

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:15.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the sheen has worn off.

0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean Google is more profitable than ever. Yeah,

0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:21.400
<v Speaker 2>same with Meta, Like these companies are so much worse,

0:28:21.400 --> 0:28:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the products are so much worse, but they're more profitable

0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:24.120
<v Speaker 2>than ever.

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. When you're thinking about Google, I also think about YouTube.

0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.960
<v Speaker 1>I think about how incredibly successful YouTube is, and I

0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 1>think about all the creators on YouTube and how at

0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.520
<v Speaker 1>the mercy of YouTube they are. Like, if there's any

0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>change in YouTube at all, it has a disproportionate effect

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 1>on the people who are creating the content there. And

0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>you could have someone who has really good content and

0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:50.440
<v Speaker 1>genuinely has a good voice and something to say and

0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 1>good production values, and they could be absolutely devastated by

0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:59.160
<v Speaker 1>a change in YouTube's algorithms or be completely laid waste

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:04.080
<v Speaker 1>when there's unsubstantial copyright claims put against them, Like the

0:29:04.640 --> 0:29:08.440
<v Speaker 1>platform can be weaponized, and so it has been weaponized.

0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 3>I look at that.

0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.520
<v Speaker 1>And meanwhile, you have at the company level, a company

0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:15.360
<v Speaker 1>that continues to just benefit financially larger amounts a year

0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:16.120
<v Speaker 1>over year over year.

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and by making the product more annoying to use

0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:22.080
<v Speaker 2>so that people spend more time on it. I mean

0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:25.239
<v Speaker 2>it's frustrating as well. Because the fair question is what

0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:28.480
<v Speaker 2>do we do here? And the answer genuinely is things

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.640
<v Speaker 2>like four h four media independent group of former VI

0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 2>some motherboard people at Jason Coblo, Emanuel Milberg, Fantastic, Semantically Colors. Well,

0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:39.880
<v Speaker 2>they did a really great story about research thing that

0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.720
<v Speaker 2>showed that Google results were getting worse. I believe that

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:47.160
<v Speaker 2>awareness of these issues will put pressure on these companies.

0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I know it's I'm just running a podcast, really, but

0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I believe that more people being aware of these things

0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 2>means that more things will change. These companies have gotten

0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:00.400
<v Speaker 2>away with it because they've obfuscated the value proposition and

0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:03.880
<v Speaker 2>the way they're making their money. Now that that's changing,

0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I actually believe that they may stop pulling these things back.

0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:08.920
<v Speaker 2>It will take time.

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I have some optimism, largely because I have seen activism

0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:18.400
<v Speaker 1>and organization and unionizing starting to grow, especially in the

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 1>tech industry over the last couple of years, which was

0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 1>unheard of a few years ago.

0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 2>Unions will also break the back of these companies, which

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:27.120
<v Speaker 2>why they're so scared of them.

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:31.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and it's why they're challenging the National Labor Relations

0:30:31.480 --> 0:30:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Board and whether or not as constitutional.

0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:35.120
<v Speaker 3>I know, right so discussed I'm.

0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Not going to go into it because I'll start screaming

0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:42.000
<v Speaker 1>into the microphone. Support your unions, guys, please do. But yeah,

0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 1>like seeing that has given me a lot of hope

0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 1>because it tells me that there has finally reached a

0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 1>point where you can't just sit back and not be

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:56.560
<v Speaker 1>active and not support your fellow workers, and to actually

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 1>call out these companies when they are doing things that

0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>are hard for everyone other than the executives and the shareholders.

0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 1>And I think that is promising. It's not a guarantee

0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 1>that we're going to turn the corner and enter into,

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:14.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, the idyllic version of the future that Gene

0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Roddenberry had when he made Star Trek. I don't think

0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:21.120
<v Speaker 1>that we're like on that doorstep. But I find solace

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.960
<v Speaker 1>in seeing that movement grow in various sectors of the

0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:27.880
<v Speaker 1>tech industry. And my hope is to continue to see

0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:31.920
<v Speaker 1>that grow and to continue seeing people educate themselves, as

0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:36.400
<v Speaker 1>you've said, and to advocate for those changes because ultimately

0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:39.880
<v Speaker 1>it does benefit the largest amount of people. The people

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.920
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't benefit would be again the executive team, the

0:31:42.960 --> 0:31:46.239
<v Speaker 1>c suites, and the shareholders. But honestly, I think they

0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.600
<v Speaker 1>can afford to it will be fine.

0:31:48.640 --> 0:31:51.720
<v Speaker 2>Think, Yeah, you'll make fifty million dollars a year.

0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:53.600
<v Speaker 3>Hell, you'll probably make one hundred million dollars.

0:31:53.720 --> 0:31:56.800
<v Speaker 2>You'll be fine. You'll be fine. Make good stuff again.

0:31:56.920 --> 0:31:59.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and in the long term, you'll actually be better.

0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm not done being angry at the tech industry just yet,

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:06.720
<v Speaker 1>but I do have to take a break to thank

0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:19.880
<v Speaker 1>our sponsors. So there's an online media company that I

0:32:19.920 --> 0:32:22.120
<v Speaker 1>was a fan of for a very long time called

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.800
<v Speaker 1>rooster Teeth, and yeah, Warner Brothers Discovery announced yesterday they

0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>shutting it down. So after twenty one years, almost twenty

0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:32.800
<v Speaker 1>one years, the company, rooster Teeth is getting shut down.

0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:34.400
<v Speaker 1>At more than one hundred and fifty people are losing

0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:36.400
<v Speaker 1>their jobs as a result of that. I plan on

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:39.640
<v Speaker 1>doing a full episode kind of giving a history of

0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:43.080
<v Speaker 1>that company and its impact on Internet culture. But I

0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:45.040
<v Speaker 1>look at things like that and I think that's why

0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:49.520
<v Speaker 1>it's really important to organize, to have unions, to have

0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:53.200
<v Speaker 1>the ability to advocate, because the problems of Rooster Teeth

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:55.160
<v Speaker 1>it's more than just Warner Brothers making a decision, a

0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:58.360
<v Speaker 1>unilateral decision to shut them down. It's not just David

0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Zaslov wants to say money. It's also that there were

0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:04.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of bad decisions made over the last decade

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.719
<v Speaker 1>that have hurt that company in the long run. And

0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:11.520
<v Speaker 1>if you have things like unions, you can help mitigate that.

0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 1>If you have people who passionately believe in what they

0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:17.480
<v Speaker 1>are doing, and it's not just how can we make

0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.480
<v Speaker 1>number go up, I think that you see a much

0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:25.440
<v Speaker 1>healthier ecosystem for all involved. And I'm so tired of

0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:31.239
<v Speaker 1>watching companies sacrifice things to get short term gains and

0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>then suffer in the long term.

0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:36.520
<v Speaker 2>It's exhausting, and that is the right economy is the

0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.680
<v Speaker 2>growth of all costs economy. It is a frustrating business.

0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:43.360
<v Speaker 2>And the only way to fight is awareness because we

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:46.160
<v Speaker 2>cannot test people. But like you said, labor organization will

0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:48.760
<v Speaker 2>do it too. Yeah, a worker owned business is like

0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:51.760
<v Speaker 2>the facta like for or for media, like Aftermath. They

0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 2>are going to fight this. They're going to fight the

0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:57.719
<v Speaker 2>people like Corey Hike who ran Vice into the ground.

0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.360
<v Speaker 2>These people have names, yeah, and they should be said

0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.840
<v Speaker 2>out loud on podcasts and in the media. The people

0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:07.600
<v Speaker 2>that are responsible. David Zaslav one brother Discovery. He is

0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:10.800
<v Speaker 2>responsible for so many great things not happening like Coyote

0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 2>vosus acme. Yeah for example, Yeah, that woman.

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:16.680
<v Speaker 3>Like he just literally killing media.

0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:19.640
<v Speaker 1>So full disclosure, The company I worked for when I

0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 1>started this podcast was HowStuffWorks dot com, which at one

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 1>point was part of Discovery Communications. So, as I've said

0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:28.160
<v Speaker 1>on this podcast a few times, I am well aware

0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.960
<v Speaker 1>of how David Zaslov operates because I got to see

0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:33.640
<v Speaker 1>it up close and personal. And I can't say that

0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:35.920
<v Speaker 1>anything that's happened over the last two years as its

0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:38.839
<v Speaker 1>surprised me. I've felt discouraged. I mean, as a fan

0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.160
<v Speaker 1>of those properties, I really would have liked the chance

0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:43.360
<v Speaker 1>to see them. And it's a shame that for a

0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 1>tax right off, it means that they can never see

0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:48.560
<v Speaker 1>the light of day. It's not just oh it's on

0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:51.319
<v Speaker 1>the shelf. No, it's going to be like obliterated from

0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 1>the earth for no reason. Yeah, tax right off, that's it.

0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:58.120
<v Speaker 1>But also do you need that tax right off, whether

0:34:58.160 --> 0:34:59.759
<v Speaker 1>they need it or not. Like when you see someone

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:04.880
<v Speaker 1>who's in control of a company that makes content seemingly

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:09.400
<v Speaker 1>have no passion for content at all, it's just heartbreaking.

0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:11.319
<v Speaker 2>And this is the problem behind a lot of the

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:14.200
<v Speaker 2>problems of Catalysm right now that the people running things

0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:16.840
<v Speaker 2>are not making things for people. Yeah, they are making

0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>things for the markets. They're making things for algorithms. They're

0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:22.359
<v Speaker 2>making things because they saw something on TikTok is. They

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.520
<v Speaker 2>want to appeal to an algorithm or a market. And

0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:28.840
<v Speaker 2>it's disgraceful because this kind of works until it doesn't,

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and when it stops working, it's calamitous. Yeah, look at

0:35:32.080 --> 0:35:36.040
<v Speaker 2>what happened to Disney with the streaming. The massive overinvestment

0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:39.279
<v Speaker 2>in streaming. Things like that are a result of this disconnection.

0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.839
<v Speaker 1>And to your point, it ends up affecting like when

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I was talking about rooster teeth, it ends up affecting

0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.520
<v Speaker 1>so many people who end up without a job and

0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.560
<v Speaker 1>the end of it when it ultimately collapses in on itself.

0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:52.839
<v Speaker 1>We saw the same thing when the pandemic hit and

0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:57.280
<v Speaker 1>you had all these tech companies invest in their infrastructure,

0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:01.160
<v Speaker 1>which made sense at the time, seemingly, but then once

0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:04.799
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic starts to recede, they realize, oh, we now

0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:09.400
<v Speaker 1>have this huge investment in infrastructure that's no longer necessary.

0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:11.520
<v Speaker 1>It's now we could view it as a cost as

0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:15.160
<v Speaker 1>opposed to an asset that's downsize it's just such a

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:20.719
<v Speaker 1>massive waste and so many talented people end up being

0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:21.440
<v Speaker 1>jerked around.

0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.280
<v Speaker 2>The CEO should be fired. Yeah, but then.

0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:28.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, and I've heard plenty of people argue about when

0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 1>they talk about AI, not generative AI, but AI potentially

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 1>replacing jobs, Like, why aren't we looking at the C

0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:35.920
<v Speaker 1>suite for that? Because that seems to me.

0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:38.680
<v Speaker 2>I wrote a business inside a piece on this very subject,

0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:42.480
<v Speaker 2>and people were very mad at it. People did not

0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:46.480
<v Speaker 2>like that idea, most of them CEOs. Most of them

0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:48.319
<v Speaker 2>were like, hey, whoa, whoa, I got sweet gig.

0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:50.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I could see why they would be mad at

0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:53.120
<v Speaker 1>the same reason why I get mad when I hear

0:36:53.760 --> 0:36:57.680
<v Speaker 1>a CEO suggests that eight thousand jobs could be held

0:36:57.719 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 1>off from being filled by humans because we can just

0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:01.040
<v Speaker 1>fill them AI in the future.

0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Here's a funny one for you, so read it. Read

0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.800
<v Speaker 2>it laid off what ninety people just before their IPO,

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:12.040
<v Speaker 2>how much Steve Hoffman made in twenty twenty three, how

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>much over one hundred and ninety million dollars? Actually, let me,

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:20.440
<v Speaker 2>I want to confirm that number.

0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:22.560
<v Speaker 1>That's a that's a lie of schaeddar.

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was a combination like all these things between

0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:29.880
<v Speaker 2>stock options and all that. Yeah, his total compensation exceeded

0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:34.640
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and ninety three million dollars in twenty twenty three. Yeah,

0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:38.759
<v Speaker 2>and read it is getting worse made and he has

0:37:38.800 --> 0:37:43.160
<v Speaker 2>not paid a single person who actually dedicated themselves to

0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:43.800
<v Speaker 2>building Reddit.

0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing.

0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, these people better hope that there is not actually

0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:51.880
<v Speaker 2>a revolution. Their faces are all over the internet.

0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, it's it's funny because every year

0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:56.480
<v Speaker 1>I feel like we're just a little step closer. Well,

0:37:56.520 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 1>this has been a great conversation.

0:37:58.840 --> 0:37:59.279
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm ready now to go out and start swinging.

0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:03.440
<v Speaker 3>So hell yeah.

0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:06.240
<v Speaker 1>I want to again remind all my listeners. Better Offline

0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:08.680
<v Speaker 1>is the podcast. It's live now. You can find it

0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:11.799
<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your podcasts. You absolutely should check it

0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:12.760
<v Speaker 1>out and take a listen.

0:38:13.280 --> 0:38:15.720
<v Speaker 3>Better Offline dot com and all.

0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:17.759
<v Speaker 2>The links, all the links go there.

0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Check out the newsletter too. Again, being informed is your

0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:24.880
<v Speaker 1>best weapon when it comes to these sorts of things,

0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 1>and you know, otherwise you're just going to be left

0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:31.080
<v Speaker 1>asking why is nothing as good as I remember it? Being?

0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:35.239
<v Speaker 1>Like there are reasons why I'm not on well what

0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:37.920
<v Speaker 1>is now X? But used to be Twitter? Like for

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.040
<v Speaker 1>a while, it was great. I loved it. It was

0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:40.879
<v Speaker 1>a fantastic one.

0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.759
<v Speaker 2>I have made my business, made friends, fallen in love

0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.160
<v Speaker 2>on that, and now now it's going to the dogs.

0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:50.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah I remember getting opportunities to do things that I

0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:53.160
<v Speaker 1>never would have done had I not been on a

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 1>platform like that. But yeah, it just got so useless

0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:01.680
<v Speaker 1>so quickly that I couldn't justify staying there anymore. I

0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:03.640
<v Speaker 1>have friends who still use it as a way of

0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:08.000
<v Speaker 1>promoting stuff, but I just found it far too depressing,

0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:11.560
<v Speaker 1>honestly to be active on the platform, and for my

0:39:11.640 --> 0:39:13.680
<v Speaker 1>own mental health, I step back. I was like, you

0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.640
<v Speaker 1>know what, I did build an audience, but honestly, I

0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:17.480
<v Speaker 1>don't even know how many of those people are still

0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:19.719
<v Speaker 1>active on this platform, because that's how bad it got.

0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.640
<v Speaker 1>So definitely check out all those links and ed, thank

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.440
<v Speaker 1>you so much for agreeing to be on the show.

0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:27.719
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me really appreciate it.

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Tech Stuff is an iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:42.040
<v Speaker 1>visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:46.720
<v Speaker 1>to your favorite shows.