1 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: High Family Secrets. Family. It's Danny here with the first 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: bonus episode we're dropping as we get busy producing brand 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: new episodes for the next season. Today, I'm sharing a 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: conversation between myself and the utterly wonderful Kelly Corrigan, whose podcast, 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Kelly Corrigan Wonders is a treasure trove of special deep 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: dives with guests such as Austin Channing Brown, Margaret Atwood, 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: George Saunders, Gia Tolentino, Anna Quinlin, Kate Bohler, and oh 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: my got so many more amazing thinkers. I was honored 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: when Kelly asked me to unpack a platitude that I 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: suspect is near and dear to Family Secrets listeners. What 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: we don't know can't hurt us, agree or disagree. I 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: hope you'll listen and enjoy, and remember, we're also revamping 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: listener stories, which are now going to be called Danny's Listening, 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: in which we'll listen to a story someone is called 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: in and I'll respond. So, if you want to share 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: your family's secret story, just call one eight Secret zero. 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: That's one eight Secret and the number zero. Hi. I'm 18 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Kelly Corrigan, and today I'm wondering about the allure of 19 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: ignorance and it's promise of bliss, and in what ways 20 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: what we don't know might indeed be hurting us and 21 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: for that matter, hurting others. So I was reading this 22 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: funny piece on Medium, my production partner for this series, 23 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: about how much everybody thinks they know and how very 24 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: little it turns out we actually do know, for instance, toilets, 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: like how many people really know how a toilet works? 26 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: How many people even want to know how a toilet works? 27 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: So I've been curious about the weight of knowledge for years, 28 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: and I'm more sensitive than ever to the burden of 29 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: knowing what's in your kids texts, what's in the one 30 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: thousand page piece of legislation you're so sure you support? 31 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: What's in our food, our air, our d n A, 32 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: who makes our laptop? What do our in laws really 33 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: think of us? How much is the guy sitting next 34 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: to us actually getting paid with me for this deep dive? 35 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: Is Danny Shapiro. You may have read one of her 36 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: novels or memoirs. I think she has like nine books 37 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: to her name, and you may well be one of 38 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: the millions who are plugging into her podcast family secrets 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: high Kelly. Before we get into this conversation, we're going 40 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: to do a quick speed round so everybody can get 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: a quick sense of you. Danny Shapiro, what book have 42 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: you read more than once? Many? Actually, but I'm going 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: to shooes Wallace Stegner's Crossing to Safety, which I try 44 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: to reread every couple of years, sort of a literary 45 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: soul palate cleansera. Do you have a go to mantra 46 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: for hard times? I do. It comes from my friend, 47 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: the Buddhist teacher Sylvia Borstein, who speaks to herself as 48 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: a beloved person, says to herself, may I meet this 49 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: moment fully? May I meet it as a friend? Other 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,279 Speaker 1: than what you don't know won't hurt you? What platitude 51 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: makes you crazy? Can I pick two? Everything happens for 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: a reason and God doesn't give us more than we 53 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: can handle. They're essentially the same platitude. They mean it 54 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: to be comforting, but when you are the person on 55 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: the receiving end of that, you have been given more 56 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: than you can handle, and there is absolutely no sense 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: that you have that there is a reason for it, 58 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: And so there is just this feeling of something being 59 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: painted over. Yes, And you're an odd enough for the moment, right, 60 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: So you have a particularly interesting relationship to knowing more 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: as you recently uncovered something utterly fundamental about your identity. 62 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: So about four years ago, my husband and I sent 63 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: away for a DNA test, just the over the counter 64 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: recreational DNA testing, really because he wanted to, and I 65 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: just went along with it, not for any reason, not 66 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: out of any curiosity. I thought I knew everything about 67 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: where I came from, who my parents were, who my 68 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: ancestors were, what my ethnicity was. This test was so 69 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: uninteresting to me that I forgot that I had even 70 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: spit into the plastic file. It just wasn't a big deal. 71 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: When the results came back, it was pretty quickly revealed 72 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: to me that the dad who raised me, who I adored, 73 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: and who I lost in a car at in it 74 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: when I was twenty three, and my relationship with whom 75 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: really defined so much of my childhood, teenage years, adult life, 76 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: my literary life. I found out that he had not 77 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: been my biological father, which was something that I had 78 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: never consciously entertained, never ever occurred to me, And in 79 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: terms of what we don't know, panther won't hurt us. 80 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: That led me into this deep dive into these twin mysteries. 81 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: And the first mystery was, well, if my father wasn't 82 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: my biological father, who is? And the other was what 83 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: did my parents know? And was this something that was 84 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: actively kept as a secret from me all my life? 85 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: Was this something that my parents and maybe even other 86 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: people too, knew about me that I didn't know about myself. 87 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: So when you first put it together, did you think 88 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: I really wish I didn't know this. I would much 89 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: rather have the story stay stable, that this man that 90 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: I love so much, that's such a part of my 91 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: identity that I've been grieving for twenty or thirty years. 92 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: I wish I never spit in the vial. Not for 93 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: a single second did I feel that way. That's so 94 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: interesting to me. I was really crazy about my dad too. 95 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I'd throw the information across the room 96 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: and run away and say like, oh, I don't believe you. 97 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: It's it's a mistake. I did go through those steps. 98 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: When the first signs were there, the breakdown of my 99 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: ethnicity made no sense. I found ways to justify that 100 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: my ethnicity should have been that I was nearly a 101 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: hundred percent Eastern European Oshkenazi. I was raised in a 102 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: Jewish home. Both of my parents were Eastern European Oshgnazi Jews, 103 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: and my ethnicity came back that I was half Swedish, Irish, 104 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: French German, and I just I was like, no, no, no, no, 105 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: it must simply be wrong, or maybe all Jews are 106 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: mongrels in some way, and maybe it's possible to be. 107 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: As I went on with each step becoming clearer and 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: clearer that this really was the case, I was definitely 109 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: like a little kid sticking my fingers in my ears, 110 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: going la la la, la, la la la until it 111 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: was irrefutable. How many minutes, hours, days, weeks, months until 112 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: you called your mother or had shearity passed? Oh, she 113 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: had passed? There was no one to call. I think 114 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that happened really pretty quickly, and 115 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to underplay how painful it was. It 116 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: was painful and shocking, but I also didn't wish I 117 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: didn't know it because it made a kind of immediate, crazy, 118 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: deep profound sense. I mean, I remember within twenty four 119 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: hours just feeling like, uh so that was what was 120 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: going on. That's why everyone who ever met me told 121 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: me that I didn't look Jewish. That's why people constantly 122 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: commented on that I didn't look like my family, because 123 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: I didn't. I just thought it was some genetic quirk. 124 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: But it was staring me in the face in the 125 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: mirror in a physical resemblance sense, but in a much 126 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: deeper way, Kelly, it was something didn't add up. I always, 127 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: as a child felt other different, like I sort of 128 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: had my nose pressed to the glass. Something about me 129 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: didn't make sense to me. I didn't feel like I 130 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: belonged in this large, extended family who I loved and 131 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: was very proud to be part of. But I didn't 132 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: feel like I belonged. And it was such a strange feeling. 133 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,359 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're a child and you have those feelings, 134 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: you have to supply a narrative. And the narrative that 135 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: I supplied was there must be something wrong with me 136 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: that I'm feeling this way. And so in the wake 137 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: of this discovery, I really felt like a huge and 138 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: massive mystery, a kind of subtle disconnect that I had 139 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: carried with me all my life, with all of my 140 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: exploration as a writer, as someone who publicly contemplates for 141 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: a living and for my art. I was like missing 142 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: the bulls eye. I kept on throwing arrows, but I 143 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: knew that I was missing my mark. I knew it, 144 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: but I didn't know what that meant. It just felt 145 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: like something must just be wrong with me, that it 146 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: doesn't all add up. So you have done thirty some 147 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: episodes of this podcast called Family Secrets, and Family Secrets 148 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: is exactly what it sounds like. It's somebody coming on 149 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: and talking to you about a family secret. Is it 150 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: your conclusion that in almost all those cases, they too 151 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: have like a niggling sense that something screwy, that something's 152 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: not adding up. Is that a feature of many stories 153 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: where you come to know something absolutely? It is in 154 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: almost all of the story. Is where a secret has 155 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: been withheld in that way where it has to do 156 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: with identity or with a closely held family secret about 157 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: a tragedy, a loss, there is a sense on the 158 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: part of the person from whom it's been withheld that 159 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: something hasn't felt right as you did. Do people typically 160 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: pin that on themselves. Is it sort of eating away 161 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: at people's self esteem that they're feeling this sense of misalignment, 162 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: certainly in the case of misattributed parentage, but when it 163 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: comes to someone's parents not having been their biological parent 164 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: and them never having known that, or cases where someone 165 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: is adopted and has never been told, there is absolutely 166 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: across the board almost the same language that's used. Of 167 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: It felt like something didn't make sense to me about me. 168 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: I didn't add up. It's so sad. I had cancer 169 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: in my thirties and we went to see the doctors. 170 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: And then after we got organized about what I was 171 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: going to do and when chemo would start and all that, 172 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: then I said, what do we do with these kids? 173 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: We have a two year old and a one year old, 174 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: And they said until kids are eight, they sort of 175 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: believe that everything is about them. And so the doctor 176 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: was saying to you, your kids should just know this. 177 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: It should not be something that's kept from them. And 178 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: thank goodness of the wisdom of that doctor, because even 179 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: to this day, in medical situations, information that's withheld. Everybody's 180 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: sparing each other, you know what I mean, Yeah, except 181 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: there they think they are. It's in the name of protection, 182 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: it's in the name of love. And one of the 183 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: things that I learned in my story when I really 184 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: started researching it is that at the time that my 185 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: parents were experiencing infertility, my father was unable to get 186 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: my mother pregnant basically, and they ultimately used a sperm donor. 187 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: And this was in the nineteen sixties. And every piece 188 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: of research that I did, every book that I read, 189 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: every magazine article that I read, basically contained also the 190 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: same language from the medical community, which was the child 191 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: must never know. Go home and never tell anyone. Don't 192 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: tell others, siblings, don't tell your parents, don't tell your 193 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: sisters or brothers, don't tell your friends. It will be 194 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: as if it never happened, because what we don't know 195 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: won't hurt us. It's in the literature because their parents 196 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: were told the child must never know, it actually became, 197 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: in most cases so buried inside the psyches of the 198 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: parents that it became like almost dissolved, almost like it 199 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: didn't exist at all. Except secrets don't work that way. 200 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: Secrets never go away. Secrets are like toxic waste. They 201 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: never go away, and when they're not dealt with head on, 202 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: they leach into everything surrounding them, so that the air 203 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: that I was breathing when I was growing up was 204 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: confused air. It was two parents who knew what they 205 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: had done, but had decided that it had never happened, 206 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: and so when they looked at me, they saw their 207 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: own secret that they had buried. One thing that's interesting 208 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: about the thing that your parents kept from you and 209 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: from all your guests on family secrets is that not 210 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: only did they keep it, but they are keeping it 211 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: like it's a daily thing. And that I think is 212 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: one of the most unsettling things about what you don't 213 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: know and and why Ultimately it's such a crusher when 214 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: your ignorance is removed. There's all sorts of things that 215 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: are painful and heavy to know and to live with, 216 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: and that are being kept from us, that are being 217 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: smoothed over by various institutions and organizations that we have 218 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: to deal with in American society, for instance, how the 219 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: United States operated in Vietnam, or what is in Donald 220 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: Trump's tax code, what goes into a piece of wonderbread, 221 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: what's in your kids nexts. But nonetheless, there's zero progress, 222 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: as is true for a human being, right there's zero 223 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: personal progress, and there's also zero societal progress if we're 224 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: living with manipulated information absolutely. The tagline for family secrets 225 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: is the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets 226 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: we keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 227 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: And I actually find the secrets that we keep from 228 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: ourselves perhaps the most poignant of those kinds of secrets. 229 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: I don't believe that my parents stayed awake at night 230 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: in the dark whispering to each other in their bed 231 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: about how they were keeping this secret from their child. 232 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: I don't believe that they ever spoke of it again. 233 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: And so it also leached into their marriage, which was 234 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: a very contentious and unhappy marriage. My mother was contemptuous 235 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: of my father. My father there was depressed, and you know, 236 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: I spent my life as a writer trying to dig 237 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: into why my parents were the way they were, and 238 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: all of the narratives that I supplied were true, they 239 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: just weren't the whole truth. And so on family secrets. 240 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: At the end of every interview, I always asked my guest, 241 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: do you wish you didn't know? Every single time, I 242 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: have yet to have a single guest say, yeah, I 243 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: wish I hadn't known. I feel like this knowledge that 244 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: I have and that I have now had for the 245 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: last four years is like a superpower. I remember calling 246 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: a therapist that I had seen for years, because when 247 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: you make a discovery like this, you can't go to 248 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: somebody new. And when I called her, she said, you know, 249 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: there was always a subtle disconnect. And I was like, 250 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: what do you mean? And she said, the woman sitting 251 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: across from me, like, what you were narrating about your 252 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: life and your fildhood and what your affect was, and 253 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: your presentation and your energy they didn't mesh. And I 254 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: mean to take that a step further. My mother in law, 255 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: who was this really wise, wonderful woman who had known 256 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: my mother, and my mother was quite difficult. She said 257 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: to me, sweetheart, I don't know how you survived your childhood. 258 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: You must have a hell of a constitution. And I 259 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: looked at her, and I remember thinking, she's right, I do. 260 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: I did not come from two people who had a 261 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: hell of a constitution, either one of them in any way, 262 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: both in terms of nature and in terms of nurture. 263 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: And yet I did have something within me that I 264 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: didn't understand, and I couldn't have articulated that to you. 265 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: At the time. All I knew was this doesn't add up. 266 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: When Danny and I talked, I had just come back 267 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: from Montgomery, Alabama, where I spent two days with civil 268 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: rights attorney Brian Stevenson. He's the just Mercy guy talking 269 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: about how knowing more about our nation's history, like the 270 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: full story, not the heroes only highlight reel, might be 271 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: the only way forward for America and our racial reckoning. 272 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: I just spent a whole bunch of time with Brian 273 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: Stevenson for this PBS show that I'm doing, and we 274 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: talked a lot about truth and reconciliation in the United 275 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: States around race relations, going from slavery to Jim Crow, 276 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: to lynching to police brutality, these four major movements in 277 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: American history. And he said, I think everybody owes it 278 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: to themselves and to their nation to look at your 279 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: family history under the lens of racism and slavery. Now 280 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: look at the college you went to, like how did 281 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: that college benefit from it? Now look at where you bank, 282 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: how does that bank operate? Now look at your homeowners association, 283 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: and keep looking at every circle you're in for a 284 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: more truthful, complete accounting of that organization's history. It is 285 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: more comfortable in many ways to not know everything about 286 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: our country, everything about our spouse, everything about our town, 287 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: everything about our children. My son is actually my son 288 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: is twenty one, but he has left his journal literally open, 289 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: sitting on a table in our house, and I've never 290 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: looked at I think I would have if I was 291 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: worried about him. I never have need to do that. 292 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: I just want to admit I could never walk past 293 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: an open journal. If I saw it, I would be like, 294 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: this is a sign I'm supposed to look at it. 295 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: Maybe she wants me to look. You know, I have 296 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of like mantal gymnastics that I'll do around 297 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: things to justify what I know would be infuriating if 298 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: someone were to do it to me. Well, my mother 299 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: my journal. So I think that that just cured me 300 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: in my desire to be nothing like her. There are 301 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: certain just clear sort of lines in the sand of 302 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: like I won't cross that. My mom read my journal 303 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: and I got grounded for an entire month of ninth 304 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: grade because I had written down in my journal curse words, 305 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: and she said that is so filthy. I can't believe 306 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: how long that list was. And you're grounded for a month. 307 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: I'm glad she didn't read my journalist. Hey, I was like, 308 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: that's pretty innocent, right. So when I was listening to 309 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: the researcher talk about nature versus nurture, you think about, 310 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: as a parent, how desperately you want my parental moves, 311 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: at least my best ones, to count to land to 312 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: have the impact that I so desire. Yeah, exactly. I 313 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: mean when I was on the road, I had a 314 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: lot of people in my audiences who were parents, parents 315 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: of biological kids, parents of adopted kids, of donor conceived kids, 316 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: and I started getting a lot of push back and 317 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: kind of angry threatened comments during the Q and A 318 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: s and like, basically, what are you saying? Are you 319 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: saying that nature trump's nurture? What are you saying to us? 320 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: And of course that's not remotely what I was saying, 321 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: But I thought, that's so interesting. Why are people feeling 322 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: this way? And what I came to understand is that 323 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: we so desperately want nurture to be all that matters 324 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: because we believe that we can control it. Well, you know, 325 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: it's so interesting. I found that the new information that 326 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: science is sort of generally rallying around this idea that 327 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: what we've considered to be personality traits are driven by 328 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: our genetic code. I found that enormously freeing. A big 329 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: promise of knowing more is that you will be perhaps uncomfortable, 330 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: and you will perhaps be at sea a little bit. 331 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: But ultimately there are certain freedoms that come with the 332 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: full story. And a freedom for me was, Oh, maybe 333 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be so insistent that your kid makes some change, 334 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: because maybe that's just written into them. That's like saying, 335 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: like change your eye color, grow another inch, you know, 336 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: be a faster runner. It's pushing them to change in 337 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: ways that maybe they're not capable of changing. And so 338 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: to me, just knowing that additional piece of information cause 339 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 1: me to accept my kids a little bit more just 340 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: as they are, and maybe even to accept myself a 341 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: little bit more as I am. And I was thinking 342 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: about all kinds of weird examples of knowing more and 343 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: areas of ignorance that are then revealed to us, Like 344 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: when Georgia was in like fourth grade, we went to 345 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: a field trip and we went to the local recycling 346 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: center and they showed us exactly what happens to the 347 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: things that we are collecting in all of our individual 348 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: house is that are going on the truck every Friday, 349 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: And what, for instance, ruins a pile of recycling. If 350 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 1: you put this in there and they discover it, then 351 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: they have to wash the whole thing, or this is 352 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: what can really be composted, and then this is what 353 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: ruins a pile of composts. The whole thing has to 354 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: be thrown out. Can you think of any examples where 355 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: you had the super huge AJA that caused you to 356 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: live differently and potentially better. I thought a lot about 357 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: the way that this time of COVID and all of 358 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: this forced slow down, and for those of us who 359 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: have been staying home and who haven't had to be 360 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: on the front lines of this thing, we've been living differently. 361 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: I don't think it's an accident that the level to 362 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: which people are waking up in the wake of George 363 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: Floyd's death is happening in part because as there was 364 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: room for it, because we all were operating on a 365 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: different frequency, in a different bandwidth, and we all were 366 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: feeling the rawness and the vulnerability of there being this 367 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: invisible virus and getting so much misinformation about it. I 368 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 1: think that that's what this period of time feels like 369 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: to me, I feel like I am using it to 370 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: peel back as many layers as I can, to understand 371 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: as much as I can, and to ultimately do as 372 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: much as I can. Well, the other thing is that 373 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: there aren't as many distractions. You can read the whole 374 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: article because you're not packing your suitcase for the next day, 375 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: and then you're not racing from one plane to the next, 376 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: and then you're not watching the Warriors potentially win the 377 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: NBA title for a sixth time, and you know, like 378 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: there's nothing on TV, there's nothing to do, and so 379 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: it has created this openness, but there is a fatigue 380 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: that I just want to acknowledge. Around knowing what you 381 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: don't know and desiring to know that and committing to 382 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: knowing that, is that a fatigue kicks in. It sort 383 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: of reminded me of this crazy interaction I had with 384 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: my mom on the eve of her seventy birthday. So 385 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: my mom is a funny lady, She's very committed to us. 386 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: She's eighty now lives alone in Villanova, and I said, hey, 387 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: my I have an idea for your birthday. My two 388 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: brothers and I were going to chip in and get 389 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: you something A little more substantial, and she said, oh, 390 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this. I know exactly what I 391 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: want for my birthday, Kelly. And I was like, oh 392 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: my god, she's gonna say like a new car, you know, 393 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: like I've really painted us into a corner here. And 394 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: then she said, I would like to say that if 395 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: there is any problem that you or your brothers have 396 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: that there's something I can do about it, I would 397 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: like to know. And I was like, god, Mom, like, 398 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: that's sort of the nicest thing anemies ever said. She said, 399 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: hold on, the second part of my gift is if 400 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: there is any problem that you or your brothers have 401 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: that there is not one thing on earth that I 402 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: can do to make better, I would like to not 403 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: know about it. I am tired. I don't want to 404 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: know that Edward's job is if he I don't want 405 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: to know that George's needs hurt. I don't want to 406 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: know that Claire didn't get to start in her game. 407 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: If I can help, I'm there. I feel that with 408 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: for instance, climate change, where you're like, please tell me 409 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: what can I do? I mean, I remember at the 410 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: end of Inconvenient Truth, I was like, if you don't 411 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: give me ten things to do. I'm going to die. 412 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: And it's the same with racism in America. What you're 413 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: talking about in part is trauma and action. And in 414 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: Bessel vander Kolch's great book, The Body Keeps the Score, 415 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,479 Speaker 1: he's one of the leading experts on trauma in the world. 416 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: He talks about the way that those who are able 417 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: to actually take action was in a traumatic event do 418 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: a better in the long run then those who are 419 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: trapped in the burning car or helpless to save someone 420 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: who's pinned under a building where there's nothing that can 421 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: be done. And when action can be taken, there's this 422 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: feeling of efficacy and movement and room. Who can I call? 423 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: What can I do? Where can I donate? Where can 424 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: I show up? Where can I protest? Where can I march? 425 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: How do we hold all that and not be paralyzed 426 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: by it? You know, it's interesting to think about how 427 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: hard and complex progresses and how if that message gets oversimplified, 428 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: if we're afraid to share the uneven herky jerky two 429 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: steps forward, one step back nature of most progress that 430 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: people on their own individual journeys as soon as they 431 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: discover a pothole. Thank god, this must be really bad, 432 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh no, no, no, no no, this is it. 433 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: This is exactly how it goes. Our ethos as Americans 434 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: is to tell the story that we broke free from 435 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: the British and we put a flag in the land 436 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: and it's been great ever since and it gets better 437 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: every day. And that's of course not true. And I 438 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: think to diminish that message or to obscure that information 439 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: is really to all of our detriment, because you need 440 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: the proper amount of stamina. Right after nine eleven, William 441 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: Faulkner's Nobel acceptance speech made its way around the world 442 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: of writers. In it, he describes the sentence that I 443 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: remember most is I declined to accept the end of man. 444 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: And it's an exhortation two people who are making art 445 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: to continue to make art because it still matters. I've 446 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: thought so many times in in these months of pandemic, 447 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: about the influenza epidemic of eighteen and I've been very 448 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: interested in speaking to my really elderly friends. I have 449 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: an aunt who's ninety six, who I speak to all 450 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: the time, and who's very wise, and to hear her, 451 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: I mean, she's shaken. There's a lot happening, and we're 452 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: in a moment where the whole world really is trembling, 453 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: but the context of it's not the first moment. And 454 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: I think for our generation, I have no memory of 455 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: Kennedy getting shot or or Dr King or Malcolm X 456 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: or RFK. I have no memory of any of that. 457 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: And I think our generation has never really suffered, and 458 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,239 Speaker 1: it's like we don't have muscles for it. We're not 459 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: the toughest generation. We're a little atrophied. We're not the 460 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: toughest generation, and we're not the toughest country. Clearly, I 461 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: want to make the case for knowing more, and so 462 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: I wrote down reasons why it's worth knowing what you 463 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: don't know, and I just want to get your thoughts 464 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: on each one. So one is that the discovery is 465 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: likely to come. As you said at the top, secrets 466 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: are like taxic waste. They don't disintegrate. They just move 467 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: around and they reform themselves in smaller spaces. But they're coming. 468 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: It must be your strong conviction that it always comes out. Oh, 469 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: I absolutely see that, whether it's I mean, look, my 470 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: parents took their secret to the grave with them and 471 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: it still came out. Yeah, they must have thought we 472 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: made it. Yeah, they accomplished what they set out to do, 473 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: but no, absolutely, whether it's generational, it's the next generation, 474 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: or it's even the generation after Carl Jung called secrets 475 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: psychic poison, it never goes away. People have said to me, 476 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do, and my only response 477 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: is they're going to find out. So the question is 478 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: only are they going to find out from you? Which 479 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: is always going to be better, not comfortable, but better 480 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: for it's a reckoning really, like while you're still on 481 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: the planet. Right, one of my friends found out that 482 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: her father had been having an affair for many years, 483 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: and it just caused her to like rethink her entire childhood. 484 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: And it's really unsettling to look back and think, how 485 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: many lies did you tell me? Did you tell me 486 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: like five thousand lies? What does that mean about what's 487 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: true of me? So I think that there's a level 488 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: of damage that is pretty pervasive when you discover that 489 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: somebody kept something under wraps. Another thing that I wrote 490 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: down about the case for knowing more is that when 491 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: you know more, you can find your people. So if 492 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: I said I have the courage to discover whether I'm 493 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: genetically predisposed to have cancer again, and I get the 494 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: tests back and I find that I am, and now 495 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: I know my kids might be. But now I also 496 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: know that like three people on my block are the same. 497 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: And I also know that the eighteen year old who 498 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: used to babysit my girls, she knows that she has 499 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: this genetic predisposition. The potential for intimacy around this stuff 500 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: is enormous, And in fact, I think intimacy thrives on 501 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: things like this, things you're afraid of, things that you 502 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: have shame around, as Mr Rogers said, like if it's mentionable, 503 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: it's manageable, and in the process of managing with others 504 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: like you, there is terrific potential for intimacy. That's so beautiful. Kelly, 505 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: and I think that this time we're living in we're 506 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: also overwhelmed by technology, and there's just endless reasons to 507 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: not love the connectivity and the Internet and the availability 508 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: of so much information all the time. But one of 509 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: the beautiful aspects is that we find the people like 510 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: us if we know the truths of ourselves. Where there 511 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: are secrets, it's always because there's shame. Shame causes or 512 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: is part of this sense of isolation. I'm the only 513 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: person in the world that this has happened to. I'm 514 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: the only person in the world like me. No one 515 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: would understand this. People keep secrets from each other because 516 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: they think if I told anyone this, they would shun me. 517 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: I would be mortified. I tell you a quick story. 518 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: There was one time where I was leading this writing 519 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: retreat for a couple of hundred people, and I gave 520 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: them this prompt at the very end of a weekend. 521 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna give you three minutes. No one 522 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: is going to see what you wrote. You can throw 523 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: it away, you can burn it. I want you to 524 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: take three minutes, and I want you to write the 525 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: thing that if anyone knew about you, you would die 526 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: of mortification. Okay, start And I looked around the room 527 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: and no one hesitated. It wasn't like people were sitting 528 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: there looking at the ceiling thinking I don't know what 529 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: that thing would be, that thing that that I'm so 530 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: ashamed about. I have no idea. And it was such 531 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: a revelation to me to see that. But I also 532 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: I would never have done this, but I would have 533 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: loved to have taken a step further and then said, Okay, 534 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: now everyone put those pieces of paper in a basket, 535 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: and now we're going to all read them aloud. I 536 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: didn't do that. It would have been a breach of trust. 537 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: But what would have happened. Everyone would have been nodding, 538 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: everyone would have been crying, everyone would have been saying me, 539 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: to me, to me too. But there's something about human 540 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: nature that makes us think that it's us that we're alone. 541 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: I mean, when I found out about my dad, I 542 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: felt like an alien who had crashed onto earth and 543 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: that no one would ever understand. And of course there 544 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: was this world of people. And in the world of 545 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: of illness there is a world of people. And in 546 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: the world of grief there is a world of people. 547 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: And in every kind of gender fluidity there is a 548 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: world of people, and and in everything that anyone has 549 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: ever been through, there is a world of people. And 550 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: yet we remain in these places that are so driven 551 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: by fear. I'm so amused and delighted every time I 552 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: go to like a really good magazine store and they 553 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: have Southern quilter or triplicate bridge players, like these really 554 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: specific communities, and it's right there in front of you. 555 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: In this enormous display of a hundred magazines. There are 556 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: people who do everything. There are people who do and 557 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: have lived through everything. There are eight billion people alive. 558 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: No one is alone. It's really an powerfully true statement 559 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: that no one is actually alone. And cross that with 560 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: the internet and then you realize you can find them 561 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: now and it's never too late, because I think the 562 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: shame of having kept a secret for a long time 563 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: stops people from being able to bear the idea of 564 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: they're going to be confronted with how could you not 565 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: have told me this? But if you combine the fact 566 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: that the secrets always end up coming out and what 567 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: you said about people then thinking well if you lie 568 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: to me about that, what else did you lie to 569 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: me about? And being left with a kind of reshuffling 570 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: or reordering of an entire history which is unnecessary. People 571 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: need permission to know that even though it's not going 572 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: to be easy, it is going to be okay. And 573 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: you know what, even if it's not okay, it's okay 574 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: because it's the truth and it's better. It's better. It's 575 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: like the air has been lightened, this burden has been released. 576 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: The final thing that's so lovely about knowing more and 577 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: sharing more and sort of setting aside your shame in 578 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: order to do so. Is that's the only way you're 579 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: going to know that you could actually be loved as 580 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: you are, because if you're playing a different game, if 581 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: you're projecting something that isn't quite true, then you must 582 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: have the secret fear that if they knew, like all 583 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: those poor people in your writing class, if they thought 584 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: that the person next to them was going to read it, 585 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: they would assume you will not want to know me. 586 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: We will not become friends. When you see this, and 587 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: that transcendent, beautiful truth is they will want to know you. 588 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: They will not avoid you, they will not be afraid 589 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: of you. The opposite, They'll be drawn to you, and 590 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: they'll be attracted to you to your essence. I have 591 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: no ever seen any situation in which that is not 592 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: the case. That's perfect, that's perfect. Well, thank you so 593 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: much for doing this such a pleasure. It was a 594 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: great conversation. So here are my takeaways, but you can 595 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,959 Speaker 1: find at medium dot com slash at Kelly. I think 596 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: twice before you spit into a plastic bile and send 597 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: it away. Secrets are like toxic waste. They never go away. 598 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: In the absence of knowing the truth, children will make 599 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: up stories, and in those stories, they will be the 600 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: deeply flawed central character. The question isn't are they going 601 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: to find out? The question is are they going to 602 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: find out? From you? I never would have thought I'd 603 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: have something in common with William Faulkner, but I too, 604 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 1: decline to accept the end of man. Freedom is knowing 605 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: the whole story. Freedom requires knowing the whole story, even 606 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: if it hurts with trauma. Those who can take action, 607 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: even action that doesn't change the outcome, fair better than 608 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: those who are merely acted upon. And finally, good news. 609 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: You are not unique. There is another person, at least one, 610 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: who has had this, felt this, done this. The reward 611 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: for sharing is intimacy. Thank you to Danny Shapiro. Thank 612 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: you to Medium for production support on the series. Kelly Corgan. 613 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: Wonders is produced by Susan George and our sound editor 614 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: is Dean K. Terry. I'll see you next time. Thanks 615 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: for being here.