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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?

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Speaker 1: From House Towards dot com. Hey, very welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Kristen and this is Molly. So Molly, Um,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you say that? In comparison to our mother's generation,

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Speaker 1: the relationship arc, if you will, from meeting someone to

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Speaker 1: marriage or long term commitment, etcetera, has changed. Probably, Yes,

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Speaker 1: there's an extra step in there because it used to

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Speaker 1: be that, you know, there was a period of you know,

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Speaker 1: you'd meet and then you would court, and then there'd

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Speaker 1: be the engagement in the in a wedding. Probably, um.

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Speaker 1: But for us there's an extra step in there. There's

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Speaker 1: the meat updating and then the cohabitation. Yes, yeah, famed

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Speaker 1: on sitcoms and movies. Yeah, you kinda kinda try it

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Speaker 1: out before before you buy it. If it's not referred

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Speaker 1: to as the next step, you know, I'm ready to

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Speaker 1: take the next step, the next step. Let's move this

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Speaker 1: relationship forward. So you're moving together and then maybe you

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Speaker 1: get engaged, maybe you don't, maybe break up whatever, but

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Speaker 1: at least you didn't get married. Yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 1: You know, our generation might have had sort of that

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Speaker 1: first set of parents that got divorced. Who are you

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Speaker 1: know people around our age saw their parents get divorced.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to make that mistake, So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna try it before I buy it. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know in olden days the famous expression I didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to say, because I don't like this expression,

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Speaker 1: go for it, Molly, why buy the cow and you

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Speaker 1: can get the milk for free? Oh Molly, I thought

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Speaker 1: you were gonna say, living in sin that's my personal fame.

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Speaker 1: Well that's another one. You know, ladies who did that

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Speaker 1: were either very simple as sinc I'm not talking about

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Speaker 1: my view of the um so they were simple or

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Speaker 1: just foolish because they were giving away all the free milk, yes, um.

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Speaker 1: Whereas now whereas now, you know, we think we're being

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Speaker 1: a little bit wiser by preventing that trauma divorce by

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Speaker 1: you know, not making things legal. Yeah. Absolutely. And you're

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Speaker 1: not in the minority if you do, uh cohabitate before

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Speaker 1: you are married, because, according to a very new study

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Speaker 1: from the Journal of Family Psychology, upwards of sev of

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Speaker 1: US couples these days are living together before marrying, and

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Speaker 1: if you want to compare that to how it used

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Speaker 1: to be, only half a million couples did that in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. We're up to the millions now. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's very common. So the question is, you know, is

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Speaker 1: that is that really a good idea? Yeah? Have we

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Speaker 1: made any progress by designed to do this step before

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Speaker 1: the big marriage? Right? Are we preventing divorced down the

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Speaker 1: road by kind of figuring out whether or not we

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Speaker 1: really like living with this guy or girl before we

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Speaker 1: make the final commitment? Um? And bad news, guys, According

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Speaker 1: to that same study in the Journal of Family Psychology,

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Speaker 1: it's not the best idea. Yeah. Yeah, it's still gonna

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Speaker 1: be sad down the line. Yeah. What these researchers are

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Speaker 1: saying that is they think they don't think that the

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Speaker 1: actual act of living together, you know, the testing out

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Speaker 1: that free milk or whatever you're talking about, Molly, they

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Speaker 1: don't think that. They don't think that that's the bad idea.

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Speaker 1: They just think that living together could be pushing people

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Speaker 1: to marrying for the wrong reasons, right, which means which

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Speaker 1: makes them more likely to get divorced down the road.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about why people might live together and

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Speaker 1: how this may or may not be a good idea.

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Speaker 1: So in a study published in the February issue of

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Speaker 1: the journal Family Issues, more than sixty participants ranks spending

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Speaker 1: more time together so the number one reason for moving

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Speaker 1: in together fair enough, followed by nearly nine who put

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Speaker 1: it as you know, financial reasons. It makes more sensitors

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Speaker 1: have one rent, what these costs were together all the

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Speaker 1: time anyway. But then fourteen percent ranked I want to

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Speaker 1: test our relationship before marriage is the most prominent reason

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Speaker 1: for why they moved in together field Testra Testra. Now,

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Speaker 1: these people are probably most at risk for the later unhappiness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the people who were listening to testing as their primary

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Speaker 1: motive for moving in together were the ones who scored

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Speaker 1: higher on measures of negative communications such as my partner

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Speaker 1: criticizes or bilittle's my opinions, feelings or desires. And they

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Speaker 1: also had lower confidence in the quality and stability of

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Speaker 1: their relationships. And it might be because going into the

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Speaker 1: they weren't really sure, you know, whether this was someone

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Speaker 1: they wanted to be together with for the long run.

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Speaker 1: So they're moving in together, so maybe to begin with

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Speaker 1: the relationship wasn't on the firmest ground, right, And if

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Speaker 1: you do have sort of this, you know, I can

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Speaker 1: get out of it later mindset. Then once things start

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Speaker 1: to go a little bit bad, you might not put

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Speaker 1: the effort into it that a couple who is on

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Speaker 1: a little bit firmer ground might Yeah. And following up

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Speaker 1: on the heels of that city that we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about, the CDC in two thousand two came up

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Speaker 1: with similar statistics that said, for instance, that the probability

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Speaker 1: of a first marriage ending in separation or divorced within

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Speaker 1: five years is compared with forty nine probability of a

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Speaker 1: pre marital cohabitation breaking up within that same period. So,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Molly, there's uh, not as high risk

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Speaker 1: involved with living together before you're married, so there's probably

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Speaker 1: greater chance of someone, you know, couples breaking up. So

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Speaker 1: those are kind of scary statistics. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you think you're doing a good thing. But I do

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Speaker 1: want to say that the research that God is talking

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Speaker 1: about this today was published in July two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of find it a little dicey, Like

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Speaker 1: I just don't know yet if we have the right

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Speaker 1: numbers on this subject, just because it's such a new phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a hard, hard topic to really study accurately. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will say if you google living together before marriage,

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Speaker 1: all you get are a lot of religious sites, which

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Speaker 1: is a whole another factor about what role religion plays

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Speaker 1: into it. We can get into that later. But the

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Speaker 1: say that God is interested was conducted at the University

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Speaker 1: of Denver. It's the one that Kristen has been citing

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Speaker 1: from the journal Family Psychology UM. And basically this research

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Speaker 1: are called up a thousand married men and women between

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Speaker 1: the ages of eighteen and thirty four who have been

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Speaker 1: married for ten years or less, so fairly newly weds,

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Speaker 1: I guess, and they asked a lot of questions about

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Speaker 1: how satisfied they are with relationship, how dedicated they were,

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Speaker 1: and what they thought of in terms of their communication patterns,

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Speaker 1: their sex lives, etcetera. And then to measure the potential

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Speaker 1: of a couple who might get divorced, they were asked,

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Speaker 1: have you or your spouse ever seriously suggested the idea

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Speaker 1: of divorce? Those sort of the first red flag for me, Kristen,

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if if someone called me up

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Speaker 1: and asked me if I had ever seriously suggested the

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Speaker 1: idea of divorce. If I would answer that completely honestly, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a fairly fairly direct question. And you might have

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Speaker 1: some people going pointing back to those religious views that

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned. You might have some people who would

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Speaker 1: never might not be happy in their marriage, but their

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Speaker 1: divorce is never going to be an option right for them. Right,

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Speaker 1: But I do kind of agree with the trends that

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Speaker 1: UM that the research yielded that if you lived together

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Speaker 1: before you get married, when you already have the ring

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Speaker 1: on your finger, or you've already made a very serious commitment,

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Speaker 1: then you do have later success than the than the

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Speaker 1: tribe before you buy people. Yeah, according to this research,

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Speaker 1: UM only about six percent of the people who lived

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Speaker 1: together after getting engaged expressed UM signs of marital marital discord,

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Speaker 1: which seemed to hint like you said that that, uh

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Speaker 1: that if you are already committed to getting married in

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Speaker 1: the future and then you move in together, it's not

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Speaker 1: as uh predictive of disaster in the future. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you're just moving together to kind of see how the

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Speaker 1: other person lives, and then all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 1: guys who have a dog and a mortgage together then

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Speaker 1: that's sort of what we're talking about, people who just

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Speaker 1: kind of slide into marriage for possibly the wrong reason.

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Speaker 1: It seems like the practical idea. And um, there there's

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Speaker 1: actually an entire project at UM Rutgers University that's been

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Speaker 1: studying the dynamics all all different from all different angles

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Speaker 1: of marriage. And they looked at this idea of pre

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Speaker 1: marital cohabitation to see whether or not it it is

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Speaker 1: a predictor of long term UM marriage success. And and

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Speaker 1: they say no, they think that before um, you live together,

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Speaker 1: you need to consider whether or not you're gonna get

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Speaker 1: married in the future. UM, trying to limit the amount

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Speaker 1: of time you live together before you end up getting married,

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Speaker 1: and definitely not living together if children are involved, right,

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Speaker 1: and and it doesn't even matter if your child with

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Speaker 1: the person that you're going to move in with. Their

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Speaker 1: saying that um, three fourths of the children born and

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Speaker 1: born to cohabitating parents will see their parents split up,

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Speaker 1: Whereas I mean you might say that children are married

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Speaker 1: parents have the same odds. It's actually closer to one

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Speaker 1: third according to the National Marriage Project. And one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why, uh, this team at Rutgers is really

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Speaker 1: looking at this issue is because, um, it's this idea

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Speaker 1: of living together before marriage is really becoming almost as

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Speaker 1: institutionalized as marriage itself. For instance, its sites a recent

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Speaker 1: representative national survey that found that nearly sixty six percent

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Speaker 1: of high school senior boys and sixty one and of

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Speaker 1: the girls indicated that they either agreed or mostly agreed

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Speaker 1: with a statement it's usually a good idea for a

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Speaker 1: couple to live together before getting married in order to

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Speaker 1: find out whether they really get along. And I also

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Speaker 1: think that you know, for people at that age, they

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Speaker 1: may not even want to get married. And so then

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Speaker 1: you've got the question, if I'm just living together, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily living together before marriage, is that going to be better?

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Speaker 1: Is it just a whole another alternative lifestyle for people?

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Speaker 1: And right now, you know, it's a fairly new phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: We might not have the best data on it, but

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Speaker 1: the National Marriage Project is saying, just if you're living

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Speaker 1: together as a complete alternative to marriage, that those couples

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Speaker 1: purport report lower levels of happiness, lower levels of sexual satisfaction,

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Speaker 1: and uh, poorer relationships with their parents obviously because their

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Speaker 1: parents probably frown on the living and sin. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: on the pro marriage side of things. They say that, um,

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Speaker 1: there is you know, the long term contract that's implied

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Speaker 1: when you when you marry someone that you're gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: having to hold to death till you part. But one

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Speaker 1: thing about this marriage project, Molly, when I is going through,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty detailed study. A lot of the statistics are

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Speaker 1: fairly old. A lot of them are coming from even

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Speaker 1: as far back as the late eighties and the mid nineties,

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Speaker 1: when this so called phenomenon that we're calling it was

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Speaker 1: not as prevalent. And um, there was a researcher at

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Speaker 1: the Mannheim Research Institute for Economics of Aging who in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven went back and kind of re

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Speaker 1: examined all of this data to find out once again

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Speaker 1: like whether or not, uh, you know, this idea of

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Speaker 1: living together is um making you more likely to get

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Speaker 1: divorced in the future. And he says that going back

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Speaker 1: and looking at the data and updating it for today's couples,

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Speaker 1: that it's that's not the case. Really, yes, So what

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Speaker 1: does today's couple look like? So let's take the women

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Speaker 1: thirty five to forty four, this age group, it has

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Speaker 1: the highest like increase in the rate of living together

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Speaker 1: before marriage. Okay, And at this age, women are a

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Speaker 1: lot more stable. Um, women are making more money than

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Speaker 1: ever before, and women with more higher education levels are

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Speaker 1: also living together more than ever before. Okay. So he's

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Speaker 1: saying that because you have this more quote unquote stable

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Speaker 1: population of men and women who are living together before marriage, Um,

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Speaker 1: that is kind of equalizing this whole idea of, you know,

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Speaker 1: the positive correlation between premarital cohabitation and divorce. And according

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Speaker 1: to this researcher, Stephen Reinholdt, this is actually happening in

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Speaker 1: Denmark and in Western Europe in particular, and he thinks

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Speaker 1: that these same ripple effects are going to start happening

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Speaker 1: in the US very soon. Gotcha. So that would, um

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Speaker 1: provide a counterpoint to the research we were siting earlier.

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Speaker 1: Whereas we mentioned, the survey participants were eighteen to thirty four,

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Speaker 1: because the younger people who are getting married at young

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Speaker 1: r ages UM and from lower income brackets are more

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Speaker 1: likely to get divorced statistically. Plus no one knows what

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Speaker 1: they're doing in their twenties. Yeah, yeah, I don't. That's

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Speaker 1: another podcast, Molly, um and and and he was he's

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Speaker 1: talking about this idea that that that group of more

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Speaker 1: you know, quote unstable. You know that people in the twenties,

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Speaker 1: not knowing what they're doing, are we're self selecting themselves

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Speaker 1: for for this group of people who are for living

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Speaker 1: together before marriage and kind of skewing the results to

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Speaker 1: make it seem like it's this terrible idea that's going

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Speaker 1: to to lead to divorce. So he's kind of arguing that, um,

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Speaker 1: as it does become more institutionalized, it's going to end

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Speaker 1: up being you know, a fairly good thing. Sounds good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you have point counterpoint, point counterpoint, and thesis pretty much,

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Speaker 1: you know, as close as we can get to a

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Speaker 1: snapshot in time, just because there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: good studies on it right now, and who knows how

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Speaker 1: it's turn out. Reinhold says good. Other people might say bad.

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Speaker 1: But Molly, we do have some tips for people, since

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Speaker 1: at least of couples in the US are now living

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Speaker 1: together before marriage, I mean we might as well at

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Speaker 1: least prepare people for sure. If we have alienated you

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Speaker 1: completely right now, they have been terrified you, and you're

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Speaker 1: like packing up your bags right now and moving out. Um,

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Speaker 1: we do have some financial tips because I think this

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Speaker 1: is probably the stickiest thing. Yes, Um, you know you

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Speaker 1: when you move in with someone, it shouldn't be then

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Speaker 1: that you realize that they're majorly in debt or you

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Speaker 1: know they can't make rent. Yeah, things like that, Like

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Speaker 1: if you're moving together to try out those sort of things,

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Speaker 1: I would say that's probably one of those um precursors

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Speaker 1: to failure. But again, I don't want to alienate all

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Speaker 1: of you out there. So these tips come from Aaron

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Speaker 1: Burdock Kiplinger. The five money Rules from moving in together. Um. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: first one a very common relationship tip. Communicate talk about

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Speaker 1: money all on the line. How much you make, how

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Speaker 1: much you spend, what you term long term goals, whether

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Speaker 1: you're a spender saver. Yeah, you've got to know all

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Speaker 1: of that about the person that you're gonna be in with.

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Speaker 1: I suggest making it like a quiz or a sort

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Speaker 1: of game. Yeah, and most importantly, how much you can

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Speaker 1: afford to pay for rent, utilities, etcetera, so you can,

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Speaker 1: you know, make those decisions exactly. And you know. The

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Speaker 1: one example she cites is that you know, maybe you

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Speaker 1: have a cell phone and your potential roommate slash signific

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Speaker 1: Another does a landline. Are you gonna pay for that lindline?

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're paying your boyfriend rent money, do

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Speaker 1: you have to pay for all the renovations and upkeep

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Speaker 1: things like that. You kind of just have to lay

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Speaker 1: it online. And when you're talking about all this money stuff,

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Speaker 1: it is not the time to go ahead and get

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Speaker 1: a joint credit card things like that. She really advises

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Speaker 1: keeping your finances separate. But if you are engaged or

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get married soon, you might want to open

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Speaker 1: up a joint checking account, but you still want to

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Speaker 1: keep separate accounts in some former fashion. Right So now,

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Speaker 1: for me, Kristen, one of the least romantic things I

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Speaker 1: can think of would be to drop a contract of

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Speaker 1: sorts with someone that you're not even sure you want

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Speaker 1: to marry. You know, this is the whole reason you

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Speaker 1: are living together is to avoid all that pay for

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Speaker 1: pre pre nup. Yeah, but you need a pre prenup

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Speaker 1: where you put everything in writing, who's going to pay

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Speaker 1: for what when, et cetera. I mean, you should do

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Speaker 1: that with any roommate, but don't don't let the old

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Speaker 1: boyfriend off the hook just because he's going to be

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Speaker 1: a very special roommate or girlfriend. True. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: if you let's say you move into a place doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a washer dryer, it's a big expense. Um. If

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Speaker 1: you have big ticket items that you're gonna need to get,

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Speaker 1: you need to keep those purchases separate and keep them documents.

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Speaker 1: So then when it's time and when if it's time

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Speaker 1: to move out, you'll know that, yes, I actually did

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Speaker 1: buy that washer and dryer and it is coming with me.

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Speaker 1: Kristin looked a little too angry when she said that,

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Speaker 1: for she really didn't wish you guys could have seen that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And last, be smart about your housing. If you're renting,

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Speaker 1: then put both names on the least. And though it

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Speaker 1: may seem like the best possible market to buy a

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Speaker 1: house together a little love nest if you will, I

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Speaker 1: would prefer that people not be in that tribe before

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Speaker 1: are you buy stage. You know, it's probably not a

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Speaker 1: good idea to buy a house with a significant other

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Speaker 1: of only three months, despite how much you are committed

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Speaker 1: to this three month fledging fledgling relationship. Yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 1: stay independent, stay smart, you know, and uh, don't be

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Speaker 1: scared of cohabitating. But don't let it also push you

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Speaker 1: into marriage for the wrong reasons. I think that's the takeaway.

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Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, I mean the the news is

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Speaker 1: grim now, but perhaps we will be the ladies who

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Speaker 1: change it. Stephen Reinholdt, you know, there we go, he says.

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Speaker 1: He says, we'll wait for it, just wait for I

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Speaker 1: wonder if that's an excuse like ladies will start to

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Speaker 1: use before they cohabitate. Oh, Stefan, Yeah, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: it seems like to the the takeaway is the more

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Speaker 1: stable you are, the better position you are in to

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Speaker 1: live with someone. Okay, so there we go. Sold well, Molly, Um.

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Speaker 1: This topic actually did come from a listener who emailed

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Speaker 1: us about it. Audrey, thank you so much for that idea.

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Speaker 1: And uh, speaking of mail, whann't we do a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a listener mail, moll uh Today, I want

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Speaker 1: to give a shout out to Mom's stuff listener named

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Speaker 1: Marley Jane. She first emailed us to um send us

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Speaker 1: a little correction about um Scott Pilgrim shout out we did.

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Speaker 1: It was part of someone's reading list a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I think we might have mentioned said

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Speaker 1: Scott Pilgrim as an author Scott Pilgrim is actually um

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Speaker 1: a comic book character. It's a whole series. UM. But

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Speaker 1: the reason why we're giving Marley Jane a shout out

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Speaker 1: is because she sent us a link to her own

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Speaker 1: comics UM www dot Scary ghost Girl dot com and uh,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say the pretty funny, pretty cute. Yeah, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to thank Marley for uh my not getting any

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Speaker 1: work done the day we got this link. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: also has She also has a blog with UM some

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Speaker 1: more of her her artwork on it, and it's the

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Speaker 1: Marley Jane dot com and you should check it out.

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Speaker 1: My favorite on there is the image of peanut butter

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Speaker 1: and jellyfish sandwich. So you guys, if you want to

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Speaker 1: shoot break coo look at that. Checkout scarre goost girl. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Marley Jane for the correction. And if you guys

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Speaker 1: have any questions, comments, or artwork tasteful artwork people that

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Speaker 1: you would like to send our way, please email me

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Speaker 1: and Molly at Mom's Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: And if you want even more Molly and Kristen throughout

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Speaker 1: the week, of course, you can always head over to

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Speaker 1: how to Stuff, which is our blog that's at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And if you just want more

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Speaker 1: information about marriage and finances and all that good romantic

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Speaker 1: and not romantic stuff, check out some articles at how

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Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com. While you're there for more on this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Because at how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Want more how stuff works, check out our

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Speaker 1: blogs on the House of works dot com home page.

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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready, are you