1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 3: That is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. 9 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show. 10 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: We also want to just take a quick look at 11 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: how Kamala Harris is bearing with a group that really 12 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: could be pivotal, especially in the state of Michigan, which 13 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: is Arab American voters. There was recently a focus group 14 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: that was convened and wasn't great for Kamala Harris because 15 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: every single panelist said they will not vote for Kamala 16 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: Harris and that at this point, given her support for 17 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: Joe Biden's policies Visavi Israel's Jonasid in the Gaza strip, 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: there is nothing she could do at this point that 19 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: would win them back. 20 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,319 Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to how that went. 21 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 5: Who was voting for Donald Trump and four it's possible, 22 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 5: It's possible. 23 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely not by Harris, that's for sure. 24 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 5: Who's voting for Kamala Harris here? Absolutely no, No, not possible. 25 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 4: There's nothing she can do or say for us to 26 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 4: change our mind. 27 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 5: Who's voting third party in twenty twenty four, good chance, 28 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 5: so Jill Stein slightly. 29 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: It's also possible to this less, we'll just abstain from 30 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: voting altogether. But we do know that that's not the 31 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 3: best political strategy. 32 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 5: You know, why are you voting for Donald Trump? Because 33 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 5: my main goal is to get someone who is actively 34 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 5: funding a genocide out of office. Is your vote for 35 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 5: Donald Trump a vote endorsing Donald Trump? Or is it 36 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 5: a vote against Kamala Harris? 37 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 4: Against Kamala Harris. 38 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 5: Donald Trump has said he will reinstate the Muslim ban, 39 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 5: so that last time he's said that he wants Natagnell 40 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 5: who to finish the Jobnald Trump said a lot of 41 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 5: things his first time around that terrified me. The campaign 42 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 5: that the Democrats ran was that Donald Trump pays us. 43 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 5: I felt safe well in the country when Trump was 44 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 5: in office. I don't feel safe right now with Kamala 45 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 5: in office. So I mean that to me speaks more. 46 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: He's donning and We've seen polling among Arab Americans in 47 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: Michigan and other swing states that suggests a majority of 48 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: them may in fact vote for Ji Jill Stein. And 49 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: you've seen the Democrats actually launch their first ever ad 50 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: campaign specifically against Jill Stein. So you know, it's not 51 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: surprising necessarily to hear these voters say, yeah, there's nothing 52 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: she could do, like it's too much, it's too long, 53 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: She's she had a chance to separate herself from this policy, 54 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: and at every opportunity she's done the opposite. At every 55 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: opportunity she's chosen a signal no, I will do exactly 56 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: what Joe Biden did. So, you know, if Democrats lose 57 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: Michigan because of this voting block, they have no one 58 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: but themselves to blame, Like, don't blame Jill Stein, don't 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: blame third parties, don't blame Donald Trump even you know, 60 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: you have yourselves to blame for number one, backing and 61 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: absolutely immoral policy, and number two. 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 4: You know, just completely. 63 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: Ignoring what was a massive movement against this policy in 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: including you know, huge numbers of activists on the ground, 65 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: including a massive amount of energy, including if you just 66 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: look at the polls, like overwhelming majority of people want 67 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: certainly a ceasefire, but also to withhold weapons from Israel 68 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: to to you know, to end this core that we've 69 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: all seen in our social media feeds every day. So 70 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm glad that they talk to these voters, and I'm 71 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: glad Democrats will have to look at that on their 72 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: favorite network and understand that you don't get to lecture 73 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: these people about who they're going to. 74 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: But in reality, what happens, They're just going to run 75 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: ads about how Jill Stein is bad. I mean, the 76 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: Stein campaign or the anti Stein campaign might be the 77 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: most vicious that I've ever seen it. There's a New 78 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: York Times hit piece out this morning. There's the Democratic ads. 79 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: They've got Democratic activists now actively trying to smear her 80 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: every single day on the timeline and this is exactly why. 81 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 2: But as you said, it's actually on Kamala. If you 82 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: look at the way that she even talks about the issue. 83 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: Here she is being asked in Detroit about Israel, Palestine, 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: about Gaza, about message to Muslim voters. 85 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: Take a listen, how risky is it that you could 86 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: lose the election? 87 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 6: Well, it is undeniable that it is something that everyone 88 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 6: is aware of what is happening there. I speak publicly 89 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 6: all the time about the fact that there are so 90 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 6: many tragic stories coming from Gaza, and of course, the 91 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 6: first in this phase of everything that has happened, the 92 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 6: first most tragic story is October seventh and what happened 93 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 6: that day, and then what has happened since. And I 94 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 6: think what's critically important as we look at this moment 95 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 6: is one acknowledging the tragedy of what has happened in 96 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 6: Gaza in terms of the extraordinary number of innocent Palestinians 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 6: have been killed, and taking that seriously and speaking truth 98 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 6: about that. In addition, of course to what I said 99 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 6: about what happened on October seven, in terms of twelve 100 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 6: hundred innocent Israelis being slaughtered, women being horribly raped, and 101 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 6: then fast forwarding to today with the killing of Sinoar, 102 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 6: this creates an opening that I believe we must take 103 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 6: full advantage of to dedicate ourselves to ending this war 104 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 6: and bringing the hostages home. 105 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if you caught that everybody else, but 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: what did she say? The first and most tragic thing 107 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: that happened was October seventh. If you're a Muslim, voter 108 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: you're hearing that in Detroit, Like, what are you exactly 109 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: if Gaza's your number one issue? 110 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: Like what exactly are supposed to take away from that? 111 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about a significant number of voters 112 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: who literally have family. 113 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: Members who are in Detroit yet. 114 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: Directly impacted, you know, who may have literally lost family members. 115 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: And you know, I maybe I shouldn't harb on this, 116 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: but it just really displays to me the outrageous double 117 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: standard that she has never, to my knowledge, that anything 118 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: about the proven, documented systematic use of rape by the 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: IDF against Palestinian detainees, for which there is vastly more 120 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: evidence than that of systematic rape on October seventh. And 121 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: I know these are uncomfortable things to say, but that's 122 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: just the fact and the reality. 123 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 4: And you know that. 124 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: Narrative has been used over and over again by her 125 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: and so many others to justify everything that has come after. 126 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: That I think is important, even as it is uncomfortable 127 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: to call it out once again and to point out 128 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: on the other side, actually there is multiple even the 129 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: Israelis themselves at least attempted to arrest some IDF members 130 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: for their rape of a Palestinian detainee. We have multiple 131 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: independent reports suggesting this is not a one off. This 132 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: was a systematic policy of abuse within this effectively concentration 133 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: camp that they have set up. And you know, so 134 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: I know a lot of listen. I think the voters 135 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: who said there's nothing she could do at this point, like, 136 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: I believe them, and I think that that's perfectly understandable 137 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: position to take. And you know, I can or others 138 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: can say till we're blue in the face, like Trump 139 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: would be worse, and I think that's true. Miriam Maddison 140 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: is one of his top donors, roughly one hundred million dollars. 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: She wants to just completely annex the West Bank. So 142 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: you were pointing out Israeli is very clear on who 143 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: they would rather have as president of the United States, 144 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: as like sixty eight percent say they would prefer Donald Trump. 145 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: Bib and at Yaho very clear that he would prefer 146 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump on the off chance that Kamala Harris actually 147 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: done something different than Joe Biden. But you know, I 148 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: think all of that amounts to not a lot when 149 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: you're talking to people who really care about this, you've 150 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: been watching this, or may even have a direct personal 151 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: steak in the real check. 152 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: That woman who she was like, look, I'm just voting 153 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: against that person, and i want to punish them. 154 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 3: So that's what I'm going to do. 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a perfectly understandable position, you know, like 156 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: you just say, you can say to you like for 157 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: till you're blue in the face, as you said, like, 158 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: well if it's different, except but that's you know, it's 159 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: a different way of thinking, especially if you've got personal steaks. 160 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: So she's got real issues. We did mention this about Elon. 161 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: Let's put this up on the screen. This is currently 162 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: going around. A funded pack by Musk is currently micro 163 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: targeting Muslim people in Michigan and Jewish people in Pennsylvania 164 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: with opposite messaging about Kamala Harris using zip code targeting. 165 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: One on the left says Kamala Harris stands with Israel. 166 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: That's too Muslim voters in Michigan to Jewish voters in 167 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania saying two face, Kamala Harris stands with palesigine, not 168 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: our ally Israel that has crossed out, and we're true. 169 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 4: Be a little more to face. Comm let's see it. 170 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's obviously like obviously a deeply cynical strategy, 171 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: but it also reveals it also reveals that they that 172 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: Elon musk At leaves his pack believes this is you know, 173 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: an effective, an effective direction and an important fisher within 174 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: the Democratic coalition and are doing what they can to 175 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: try to exploit it. 176 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that it's funny because it's actually 177 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: probably more resonant on the Muslim part. But all the 178 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: data that we have right now is that, you know, 179 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 2: American Jews are overwhelmingly Democrats. I voted for like sixty 180 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: or so, almost seventy percent for Joe Biden last time Aroundeah, 181 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: I have not seen a single scrap of like large 182 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: scale sample data that outside of like Bill Ackman and 183 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: like rich Jews work in finance, that there's been any 184 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: sort of grand realigning it. 185 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: Well, it's Trump thinks of Jews in the stereotypical way 186 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: that like Democrats are twenty sixteen, we're thinking about Latinos 187 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: in life voters of like, oh your brown immigration must 188 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: be your number one issue, or oh you're black, like 189 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: criminal justice reform must be the only thing that you 190 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: care about. He thinks the only thing Jewish voter should 191 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: care about is Israel, right, And that's I mean, it 192 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: is anti semitic to think, first of all, to associate 193 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: every Jew with this out of control genocidal state is 194 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: in my opinion, anti semitic. And number two, just to 195 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: collapse any large demographic group down to like a single 196 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: issue like oh, you're one of those people, this is 197 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: what you care about is gross and you know, and racist, 198 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: I think in my opinion. 199 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 4: So you know, which I also said. 200 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: When it came to Democrats stereotyping the same way. So yeah, 201 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: he's of course wrong. And when you look at the polls, 202 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: majority of American Jews want to cease fire quite a 203 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: large number. Also, you know hate bb NA Naho. By 204 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: the way, the greatest supporters of bb Nan Yahoo by 205 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: religious group in this country are not American Jews. They 206 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: are American evangelicals who who support Baby Nanaou And whatever 207 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: he wants to do, it must give part blanche. 208 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 209 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: So you know this is part of what Donald Trump's 210 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: coalition is very aligned on the issue of Israel. They're 211 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: very pro Israel pretty much across the board. There's a 212 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: very marginal dissent, and you know, their critique is that 213 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: Kamala and Joe Biden have not done enough, have not 214 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: given bib enough of a blank check. 215 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 4: That's their position. 216 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, since there is somewhat of a fracture in 217 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: the Democratic base, especially between Democratic elites and base voters, 218 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Republicans are you know, trying to exploit that understandably as 219 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: best that they can. And you know, ultimately, again it's 220 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: it comes down to the actual policy and Kamala's complete 221 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: unwillingness to break from Joe Biden on an area. 222 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 4: And again for people who don't. 223 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: Really care about this issue, which is a majority of 224 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: Americans who don't who aren't going to be voting on it, 225 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, she could have done herself some favors too, 226 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: just by actually breaking with Biden on an issue, since 227 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: that's been something she's really struggled with as well, just 228 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: creating some space. 229 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 4: And showing she's her own person. 230 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: So, you know, it's just it's a moral and political 231 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: failure on every level, is basically all you can say 232 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: about it at this point. All right, let's go ahead 233 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: and move on to Israel. So last week we brought 234 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: you the news that Israel had assassinated yeah Yah Sinoar 235 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: that of course an extraordinary development. He was the you know, 236 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: he was the leader of Hamas, especially after the assassination 237 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: previously of Ismail Haniah, who had been the head of 238 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,359 Speaker 1: the political branch of Hamas. He also was the architect 239 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: in large part of October seventh, so incredibly significant develops 240 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: their developments there. In the wake of that news, MSNBC shockingly, 241 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: one of my old friends, Amanroyle Dean there brought on 242 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: our friend dropsite co founder Jeremy Scahill to talk about 243 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: the significance of these events, and he really called out 244 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: MSNBC on there our own airwaves. 245 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to that. 246 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 7: I just want to begin by saying that as we're 247 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 7: speaking tonight, the Israelis are waging an extermination campaign in 248 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 7: the north of Gaza. For the past two weeks, they've 249 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 7: surrounded the area and they've intensified it after the killing 250 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 7: of Jakhas Sinoir. No food or medicine of any kind 251 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 7: has reached most parts of the north. I'm in direct touch. 252 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 7: I'm in with medical officials in the north and with 253 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 7: journalists a colleagues. I understand that at least eighty people 254 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 7: have been killed tonight in a horrifying set of attacks 255 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 7: on half a dozen residential buildings. I've just gotten done 256 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 7: seeing images from the ground where children are being shredded 257 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 7: like meat in a butcher's shop. I don't understand how 258 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 7: any of us, whether we're journalists or not, this isn't 259 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 7: about objectivity, how any of us can watch this genocide 260 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 7: unfolded real time and watch the pontificating of the politicians 261 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 7: running for president and not just cry out this has 262 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 7: to stop. I mean, this has to stop. We've looked 263 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 7: at this. I mean, I know you've id it on 264 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 7: the ground from Gaza. I mean, we're watching a genocide 265 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 7: in real time, and I'm sorry, but on this network 266 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 7: also there are people who have promoted propaganda from Israel. 267 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 7: There are people cheerleading for those running for office who 268 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 7: are lying to the American people about concern for the Palestinians. 269 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 7: And yes, we should talk about Yaha Sinhar, but Yahka 270 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 7: Sinwar is also in many ways the story of Gaza. 271 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 7: You know, yes, this was a violent man, but his 272 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 7: violence was rooted in the fact that he was born 273 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 7: in a refugee camp and Israel, throughout his entire life 274 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 7: waged a war of annihilation against the Palestinians. I'm not 275 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 7: here to defend Yakha Sinwar. I'm here to say that 276 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 7: we can't talk about who yah Ja Sinhwar was or 277 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 7: what Hamas is without talking about seventy six years of colonialism, 278 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 7: of apartheid, of mass killing, of mowing the lawn, of 279 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 7: controlling the calories. 280 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 4: No lines detected there. 281 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: Let me just say, Aiman is such a real one 282 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: for bringing Jeremy on. 283 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: I in trouble for that one. 284 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Jeremy, I'm quite sure where that was the 285 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: last time're going to se Jeremy on smbc's airways for 286 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: quite a while. You know, he used to be And 287 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: if you guys go and listen to the interview that 288 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: Ryan and Emily did with Jeremy. He used to be 289 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: a fixture on MSNBC. Rachel Mattow have him on all 290 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: the time back in the era when it was the 291 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: Bush era, and you know, they were all aligned and 292 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: going after George W. Bush and you know, exposing torture 293 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: and all the abuses of that era. 294 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 4: They love to have him on. And then the moment 295 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 4: that it. 296 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: Was the Obama era and Jeremy was still doing this 297 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: thing and say, hey, he's you know, increased the drone 298 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: ward like pointing out the failures there. Suddenly that was it, 299 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: he was asked, and he's never heard from Rachel Matdow 300 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: since because he did I think something similar of calling 301 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: out MSNBC on her program, and she expressed to him 302 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: in real time like you can't do that, this is 303 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: a problem, and then that was it for his So 304 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, this was his first return to MSNBC 305 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: since that era, which would have been you know, quite 306 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: a while ago. But I again don't expect we'll see 307 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: him back there for another maybe two decades. 308 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean his story like he told with 309 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: I mean Ryan too. Ryan was an MSNBC contributor. You 310 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: guys were on there and then you know, at a 311 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: certain point they made a decision. They're like, this is 312 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: the direction. 313 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: We're going in. 314 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: Obviously, look at it has worked, right. They are the 315 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: number two cable news network. Yes, they have the oldest 316 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: audience and all of cable news, seventy two years old 317 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: boomer white liberals. These are mostly people who love the network, 318 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: but for them like this is genuinely shocking to see 319 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: something like this. Anybody who watches our show or frankly, 320 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: he's even on the Internet. You could be a pro 321 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: Israel person on the Internet and you would still not 322 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: be shocked by something Jeremy has to say. But the 323 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: thing is is that on that network and him calling 324 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: them out directly on their face, I do think it 325 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: has some power, you know, to hear hear it stated 326 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: that because it's so foreign, it's such a foreign even 327 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: way of thinking. 328 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 4: That's right. 329 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, That's why Tony E. C. 330 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: Coats and his book and his interview rounds have been 331 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: so significant too, is that, you know, that perspective is 332 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: just mostly almost completely absent from elite media airwaves, whether 333 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: it's MSNBC, New York Times, I'm, CNN, Fox News, et cetera. 334 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: So so anyway, it was quite quite striking to see 335 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: that perspective offered there. 336 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 4: I really suspect. 337 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: Aiman will get in trouble for all Jeremy on because 338 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: he already has been under quite a bit of fire, 339 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: remember after October seventh, Yeah, they took him off the 340 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: air for a while. Obviously, medi got fired for probably 341 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: for his approach to that conflict, and especially the aggressive 342 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: way that he would question people about the conflict is 343 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: probably specifically what got him canned, possibly by the ADL. 344 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: People are very influential there, so we'll keep an eye 345 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: on that. At the same time, I referenced earlier that 346 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: Israel for some reason decided to actually put out the 347 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: video of Yeah, I guess and More's final moments. We 348 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 1: can put this up on the screen so we can 349 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: take a look at some of this. You know, this 350 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: was after he had already been part of a battle 351 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: with a tank and the idea have to not find him. 352 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: You can see him sitting in that chair and it 353 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: looks like his arm is you know, like potentially severed. 354 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, the photo did show. 355 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it appears to look like it's partially severed. So 356 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: he's basically as one arm. He uses that one arm 357 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: you'll see here at a moment this is a drone 358 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: that's surveilling him. He uses that one arm to throw 359 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: a stick at the drone camera. And so, you know, 360 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: this video kind of dispelled some of the Israeli mythology 361 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: about him. You know, they had portrayed him really as 362 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: like a rat hiding in tunnels. They also portrayed themselves 363 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: as knowing exactly where he was located and saying he 364 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: was surrounded by hostages and some underground bunker, and here 365 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: he is actually you know, fighting to the bitter end, 366 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: throwing a stick at the drone that's sent into to 367 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: assassinate him. And you know, I think that part saga 368 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm interested for your reaction here, you know, part is 369 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: the Israelis for their domestic audience just seeing him finished. 370 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: And in this, you know, in this state where he's 371 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: surrounded by rubble and all the level of devis station 372 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: like for an Israeli domestic audience, this plays well. And 373 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: I think that's probably bebing Aa who's primary concern thought. 374 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: But in terms of the global impression, and even especially 375 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: among Palestinians, many of whom, according to Poles, had. 376 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: Really turned on sinewa Orse. They blame him because they blame. 377 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: Him in part for you know, I think they blame 378 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: Israel too, but they're like, you brought this upon us, 379 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: and they bought into this idea that you're you know, 380 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: living this more luxurious life and you're hiding, well, we're 381 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: being bombed. This has increased a large amount of sympathy 382 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: for him within the Palistinian population and bestowed on him 383 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: a sort of like valor that is really propaganda had 384 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: effectively robbed. 385 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 4: Him up proof. 386 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 2: I'm just struck by the difference between the US and 387 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: between Israel. Here, let's put this up on the screen. 388 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: This is from the Wall Street Journal. It says in 389 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 2: depth hamas leader may have won wider support than when 390 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: he was alive. And there's just so many differences. If 391 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: you look at the way that the US operated against 392 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: Osamb and Laden. For example, there's a photo allegedly of 393 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: Bin Laden's face like split it half, like a and 394 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: cake or something that when he was shot by those 395 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: Navy seals and steal Team six, and that was never 396 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: released to the public. They made great effort to make 397 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: sure that he could never be seen as a martyr 398 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: or to give Isis, which was big at that time, 399 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: any propaganda or al Qaeda, and they may buried his 400 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 2: body at sea, you know, make sure that there was 401 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: never any grave that people could flock to. It was 402 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: just a very different reaction. And I mean, what I 403 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: would point out is people celebrated here. I was there 404 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: at the White House to night that Bin Laden was killed. 405 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: It's one of the craziest, honestly moments of my life 406 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: just remembering what that was like. You know, for the 407 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 2: country and for everything. It's not like people didn't celebrate 408 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: and Obama didn't get the political bump that he needed, 409 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: I guess, you know, if we're going to talk in 410 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: crafts terms. But there was also a lot of thought about, hey, 411 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: if we're going to do this, then we shouldn't release video. 412 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: We should make sure that this doesn't become like a 413 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: major thing in the Arab world or for people who 414 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: are radical Islamists to be able to flock around. And 415 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: this was like the opposite reaction that Israel decided to pursue. 416 00:20:59,320 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: You know. 417 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: I would say even with that, I believe the bag 418 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: Daddy video was never released, you know, by Trump. So 419 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: it's not like Trump, I mean, obviously very different person 420 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: than Obama and the way that he thought about things, 421 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 2: even he never did that, you know, whenever Bagdaddy was killed. 422 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: So that's just the major difference in the way that 423 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 2: our countries look at these things. And I think probably 424 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: because we have more experience with a twenty year g 425 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: WAT you know, blowback campaign of what happened when we 426 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: did try to have all these celebratory actions during the 427 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: Iraq War and we found out hard in two thousand 428 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: and five and two thousand and six, what that looks like. 429 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 4: I think there's also just. 430 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: Such as a gulf, massive gulf between how the Israeli 431 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: domestic audience consumes these things versus how the global audience 432 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: consumes these things. You know, when you look at the 433 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: polling and you have you know, the preponderance of opinions 434 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: saying we weren't tough enough in Gaza and we haven't 435 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, been brutal enough in Gaza. That's why we 436 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: from the beginning had this question like why are they 437 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: why aren't they taking the phones of the idea of 438 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: soldiers so they can stop recording their war crimes, you know, 439 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: And the answer is because they actually, from a domestic 440 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: political standpoint, they liked the recording of the death, destruction, 441 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: extermination for crimes. They liked it. Those soldiers that were 442 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: posting these things became like, you know, heroes who were 443 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: fed it at these various way let's resettle Gaza conferences. 444 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: So the victory that's on offer to the Israeli people 445 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: is one of utter annihilation. And so the more that 446 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: those images of annihilation are shown to the Israeli domestic audience, 447 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: the you know, the better BB does in the polls, 448 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: and the more he's able to hold on to power, 449 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: because that's that is the real victory that he is 450 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: promising them. So I think that's part of why I 451 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: saw some people theorizing that maybe the idea of hate 452 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: phoebe and so they leaked this to like undermine what 453 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: he'd been saying. But I don't buy that. I think 454 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: they this is to feed the Israeli domestic audience who 455 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: loves to see him there in the rubble in his 456 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: final moments. And you know, the Wall Street Journal again 457 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: to cite a very mainstream publication here and their analysis, 458 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: they interviewed a number of individuals. One one, Gosen, said 459 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: that once they saw the footage, it changed his mind 460 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: about Sinwar. He said it showed he was fighting until 461 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: the very end. Another analyst said it makes a difference 462 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: to people in the Arab world that he was above ground, 463 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: that he didn't escape, that he was fighting. How and 464 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: where he died also refutes the Israeli narrative of Sinwar 465 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: abandoning the people of Gaza. Many people feel Israel can't 466 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: pretend this is a big achievement because his killing wasn't 467 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: planned or done through using intelligence, so you know, pretty 468 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty revelatory their decision to release this 469 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: video on what it says about Bibe's mindset and Israeli societies. 470 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: At the same time, you know, there was let's put 471 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: this up on the screen. Apparently Bibe's own house came 472 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: under attack. Israel's government said that a drone Hesbaled drone 473 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: targeted Prime Minister Benjamin netna Who's house on Saturday. There 474 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: were no casualties, but you know, an attempted assassination here 475 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: on bbnatnah who. 476 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 4: Certainly. 477 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: Israel's military said dozens of projectiles were launched from lebanon, 478 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: day after HESBLAD announced a new phase in fighting. Netnahu's 479 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: office said that drone targeted his house in the Mediterranean 480 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: coastal town of I don't know how to say this, Cesaria. 481 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, neither he nor his wife was there. Wasn't 482 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: clear if the house was hit, and of course we 483 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: know from the military sensors. He will not allow you 484 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: to report whether the house was hit or not. That's 485 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: something they're very sensitive about showing any damage from attacks 486 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: from Iran or from HESBLA. We can also put this 487 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: up on the screen. Israel taking a significant hit in 488 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: terms of one of their top IDF commanders. This is 489 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: Colonel Asan Doxa. It says lieutenant colonel, but it was 490 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: actually a full colonel Asan Dosa, commander of Israel's foreign 491 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 1: our first brigade, killed today in what this individual describes 492 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: as a precise ambush by Palestinian fighters in Jabalia. This 493 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: colonel very significant saga because he was really in charge 494 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: of that assault on Jabalia refugee camp. So that's why 495 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: it's quite noteworthy that he was killed by Hamas or 496 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: other Aligne fighters there. 497 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: Well, also a little bit of a preview, what does 498 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: it look like that's a you have got the army 499 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: to come in refugee camp. 500 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 3: He was killed by an IED. 501 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 2: So they're learning exactly the same problems that the US 502 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 2: forces learned in Iraq. 503 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 3: We were. 504 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: Some of the initial reporting said that some of the 505 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: IED was actually assembled with unexploded ordinance that the israe 506 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 2: Israel had dropped onto the Hongaza, which again same thing 507 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: that people learned in Afghanistan. That is a classic play 508 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: out of Afghanistan in Iraq. You can ask anybody who 509 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: served over there, like these things are very deadly. And 510 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: the more that they operate there and in Lebanon against 511 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: Hesbola much more competent you know, enemy, which has already 512 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: proven the ability to strike at them effectively, even hit 513 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: Beebe's house. I mean, already they have accomplished more like 514 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: better tactics against the IDF and their ability to penetrate 515 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: Israeli defenses than anybody in Hamas ever could have dreamed of. 516 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 3: You know, in the war. I'm just talking about, you know, 517 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 3: post October seventh. 518 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: So clearly they've got a big problem ahead of them, 519 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: and the Israelis are really getting a taste of what 520 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: this looks like. 521 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 5: Yeah. 522 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: And finally, when I want to lose sight of the 523 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: continued assault on Gaza, this is one of the deadliest 524 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: strikes that we've had in quite a while. 525 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 4: Let's put this up on the screen. 526 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: At least eighty people killed in Israeli missile strikes on 527 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: a school compound in Gaza City. Six thousand displaced people 528 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: were sheltering there. It was hit as they prepared for 529 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: the morning prayers, reportedly once again caused a fire. Video 530 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: from the scene, according to The Guardian, showed horrific loss 531 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: of life, with body parts, rubble and destroyed furniture scattered 532 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: across blood soaked mattresses. So you know, here we are 533 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: obviously more than a year after October seventh, and yes, 534 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: Amas is able to you know, to kill this colonel 535 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: who was quite significant. So they have not been defeated. 536 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: I don't think they're probably anywhere close. I don't have 537 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: always thought that it's probably not really possible to thoroughly 538 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: defeat Hamas. But Israel right back in Gaza City, Northern Gaza, 539 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: and you know, continuing this campaign of devastation annihilation, also 540 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: telling people once again to relocate, but in some instances 541 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: shooting them as they try to flee, floating this idea 542 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: of starving the population. There was a pr ploy effectively 543 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: last week where the US seemed to pressure Israel to 544 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: let them aid into northern Gaza. None had come in 545 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: since the beginning of October. There was a photo op 546 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: with fifty eight trucks, but all of the reports on 547 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: the ground suggested that none of that actually went to 548 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: northern Gaza. 549 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 4: So that's where we are. 550 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, we got kin clip is Steen standing by. 551 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 3: Let's just get to it. 552 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 4: Very happy to be joined this morning. 553 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: By journalist Ken Clippenstein, who may have just gotten himself 554 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: in trouble with the FBI yet again. 555 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 4: Ken, Welcome to the show. 556 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 3: Good just see you man. Hey, guys, good to be back. 557 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: So effectively, Ken, you decided to publish some leaked US 558 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: intelligence documents which we're assessing Israel's likely response to Iran, 559 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: which we're still waiting to see what they have in store, 560 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: and there's been a big public debate about that. 561 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 4: First talk to us. 562 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: Here's the piece that you posted on substack Israel props 563 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: for strike on Iran, top secret leak reveals. 564 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 4: Read the US intelligence reports the media won't publish. 565 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: So there's a lot about this that is quite significant, 566 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: including what is actually in the documents themselves. But just 567 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about your decision to 568 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: go ahead and publish these documents, which is a move 569 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: that other mainstream outlets have not taken. 570 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I got a copy of this from my 571 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 3: friend early on Thursday, and I thought to myself, oh, well, 572 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: this is already circulatding on social media. This would be 573 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: up in a matter of time. And by Friday morning 574 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: I realized not only have the documents not been published 575 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 3: in any major media outlet. The media had even talked 576 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 3: about it then, and it wasn't until that afternoon. This 577 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 3: was like more than twenty four hours after I'd been 578 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 3: circulating that Axios had the first story on it. Barackravid 579 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 3: reporter is very close to the White House. And what's 580 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 3: interesting is in his report they just describe they're just 581 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 3: call it, I call it, you know, trust us journalism, 582 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: Like here's what it says. You don't have to see it. 583 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: They didn't publish underlying intelligence reports. Subsequent to that, virtually 584 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: every major media outlet has now reported on it became 585 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: impossible to ignore after the Axios story, and I published 586 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: a few minutes after Axios. None of the other outlets, 587 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: not one has published the underlying intelligence report. And the 588 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: reason that that matters is because you're forced to sort 589 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: of rely on the media's paraphrase, not just the accuracy 590 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 3: of it, but even assuming that you know they have 591 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 3: the best of intentions and they're not too close to 592 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 3: the White House like I think Revid Barackravid is, but 593 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: just that they would understand what the general public is 594 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 3: interested in, and you know, just by pure accident, maybe 595 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 3: they don't. And I think the reporting on. This shows 596 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: that they don't know because they're getting key facts about 597 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: it wrong. So, for example, the intelligence reports come from 598 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: what's called the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, which deals with 599 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 3: satellite imagery and analysis. It's been reported in both CNN 600 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 3: and Reuters. I'm not making this up. You can go 601 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: look it up that this was from the end. They 602 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: mentioned this coming from the NSA, which is factually untrue. 603 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 3: Total it shows you the problem with not giving people 604 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 3: the underlying records. Media ends up reporting, repeating each other, 605 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 3: and it becomes an echo chamber and they're not they're 606 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 3: not able to check their underlying facts because nobody has 607 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: the source material. Get to the source material, then, Ken, 608 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: what can we learn from it? 609 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 2: Exactly as just saw the rite up around what the 610 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: potential sites and all that could look like, and you 611 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: lay that out. 612 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 3: For the audience. Yeah, what this shows is that despite 613 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: all the happy talk about our ironclad relationship with Israel 614 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 3: and how we have total trust, so on and so forth, 615 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 3: we are spying on each other aggressively. And it's not 616 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: just the satellite intelligence. It is human intelligence, you know, spies, 617 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: it is cyber intelligence, it's all sorts of different things 618 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 3: to paint a mosaic picture of what Israel is up 619 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 3: to because we can't take them at their word. We 620 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: don't take any nation state at its word. But in 621 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 3: the context of the conflict that you guys were just 622 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: describing in the previous segment, the stakes are really high, 623 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 3: and so it becomes important to look at not just 624 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: what are the officials saying and what are they saying 625 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: to us in private, but to look at their military exercises. 626 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 3: They were doing mid air refuel exercises, which is what 627 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: you would need to do if you were going to 628 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 3: strike your on because the distance from Tel Aviv from 629 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 3: Israel is far enough that they couldn't make it in 630 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 3: with one fuel tanker. And so you're looking at a 631 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 3: bunch of different characteristics, military readiness, special operations. This stuff 632 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 3: is really complicated, and so it shows that we, the 633 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: US intelligence community, the Pentagon is looking at every one 634 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: of these domains that might be indicative of an Israeli move. 635 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 3: And I think what this should show you is this 636 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: stuff is complex and it's not as straightforward as perhaps 637 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 3: Biden suggested. When they asked him, I said, do you 638 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: know about what Israel's going to do? He goes yes, 639 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 3: and yes, there are all kinds of different factors you 640 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: have to look at to try to make that judgment, 641 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: and that puts us in a dangerous position because it's 642 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: not a straightforward question about if we know what they're 643 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 3: going to do or not. 644 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: The news outlets, all of them who chose not to 645 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: publish these documents, have they given any rationale for that decision? 646 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: And what do you think that their rationale would be? 647 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: Do you think part of it is just like when 648 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: I look at these documents, you know, they require some 649 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: understanding of underlying lingo, etc. To really makes sense of them, 650 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: So you have to be somewhat of an expert to 651 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: really glean much from them. Do you think that maybe 652 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: they just have the sense like, oh, the general public 653 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: isn't really going to understand these documents anyway, so we 654 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: need to encapsulate for them what it is and what 655 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: it means. 656 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't have a problem explaining what the significance 657 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 3: is because, as you say, these are very technical documents. 658 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 3: They have all kinds of notations and markings on them 659 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 3: that are not something that you know, the naked eye 660 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 3: is that an ordinary person is going to know what 661 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 3: it means. But the problem is they're getting it wrong. 662 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I just looked at the Times right up. 663 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: You could see a number of factual errors in it. 664 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 3: And as with science, the best thing for discourse is 665 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: to have it openly so that we can check each 666 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 3: other's errors. Nobody's perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. I make mistakes. 667 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 3: But when you don't put that underlying record out there, 668 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 3: then that conversation becomes difficult to have because people are 669 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 3: going off of something that not everyone can see. So 670 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 3: to answer your question, what was their rationale? In two 671 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 3: cases there were admirably frank mentions in I think it 672 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: was the CNN's article and ABC News' article where they say, 673 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: we are not publishing the underlying documents, and in both 674 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 3: cases they want to have further they said, we are 675 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: not even going to quote directly from them. What that 676 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 3: says to me is that they're saying, oh, look how 677 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: responsible we are. And that's an unhealthy place for the 678 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: media to be, to see itself as an adjunct of 679 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 3: the national security state. I don't think it means I 680 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 3: don't care about the country that I'm publishing these things. 681 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 3: My own view is it's already out there, guys. I 682 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 3: mean anyone can see it on Twitter. It's like we're 683 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 3: engaged in this theater of acting like, oh, by withholding 684 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 3: this somehow we're helping the secrecy. We're helping the task 685 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 3: of the US military, which is just absurd. So I 686 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 3: think that all of this is an outgrowth of what 687 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 3: I talked about last time I was on the show 688 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 3: about the Jdvans DOTSA and the media's perception that it 689 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 3: is deputized into some kind of national security responsibility on 690 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 3: the part of the federal government, which I think is 691 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 3: really unhealthy for the media to see itself. 692 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: As Yeah, I remember, you know, so when we had 693 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: the disc club, the discord leaks that that was another 694 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: thing is you were getting to a very much way 695 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: you talked about. We settled on quoting from them because 696 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: I think, like you said, that's very important. At that time, 697 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,479 Speaker 2: there was still like some consternation around whether that would 698 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: have actually like endangered troops because I wasn't as public 699 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 2: as the one you're talking about. But as you said, 700 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 2: if it's actually one hundred percent out there, it's out 701 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 2: there and it's not just media outlets that have it, 702 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: then you're not doing anybody any favors by just towing 703 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 2: the line for the national security state. 704 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 3: That's what I think is really important. Yeah, I completely agree, 705 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 3: and you can tell the media they just don't want 706 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 3: to talk about this. I more than twenty four more 707 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 3: than twenty four hours after this thing was already circulating, 708 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 3: that we know, before they even had the first report 709 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 3: just vaguely mentioning it. You know, my editor and I 710 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 3: were able to verify the authenticity of it based on 711 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 3: the source of the intelligence community within about several hours. 712 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 3: And you know, I hope I don't have better sources 713 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 3: than the New York Times in the Washington Posts, because 714 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 3: we're in real trouble if those guys just don't have anybody. 715 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 3: So I'm guessing they could have done this all more quickly, 716 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: But it seems like there was only any motion after 717 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 3: my story in Axios's story came out and it sort 718 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: of became untenable to pretend it wasn't happening anymore. But 719 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 3: this view that the media is separate from the rest 720 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 3: of the public and seeing this stuff unfold on social 721 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 3: media is just indicative of this, you know, very unhealthy 722 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 3: self image that I think that the press has. 723 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about a little bit about where these 724 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: documents came from, and could put F two up on 725 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: the screen us apparently investigating the leak of these documents. 726 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I also think that this reveals a 727 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: little bit too, because it's obviously not that the New 728 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: York Times on wash and posts never publish leaks out 729 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: of the National security state. It's just usually those leaks 730 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: are authorized leak of things that those groups want out 731 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: to the public. 732 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 4: But because you have. 733 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: This as an unauthorized leak, something that these agencies, you know, 734 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: find to be embarrassing to put out there, because you know, 735 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: it reveals what we think of these planes. Also reveals, 736 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: as you said, that even with this close ally, we're 737 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: still having to spy on them to figure out what 738 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: the heck that they're up to. Just speak a little 739 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: bit to that in the response here where they're launching 740 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: this investigation and try to figure out who leaked these 741 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: documents and if you have any insight into how high 742 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: level the individual would have to be to have gained 743 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: access to these documents. 744 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 3: My understanding is that I don't think this has been 745 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 3: reported yet, is that the sense of the investigators is 746 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 3: that this must have been a relatively low level individual 747 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 3: similar to Jack Tshierra, the US Airmen that was responsible 748 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 3: for the Discord leaks. That's kind of the preliminary assessment 749 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 3: right now, but certainly the view that this was an 750 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 3: insider within the US intelligence community. I've seen a lot 751 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 3: of speculation about, you know, where this going to come from. 752 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 3: I mentioned before some of the errors in reporting I've 753 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 3: seen again and again it asserted that the possibility that 754 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 3: this was from an Iranian hack, which is absurd because 755 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 3: these are top secret documents which live on a server 756 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 3: call on a system called JWIX, the US Military intelligence system, 757 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 3: which is air gapped, so by definition, it couldn't have 758 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 3: been hacked. It's not connected to the Internet, and that's 759 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 3: something you can tell at a glance. Anyone who understands 760 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 3: how the top secret system works knows that these things 761 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 3: are put in skiffs, you know, secure compartmented information facilities 762 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: that are not in any way connected to the Internet 763 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 3: that you have to physically go into a you know, 764 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 3: vault to look at. That's that's you know, cordoned off 765 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 3: from the rest of the world. So the fact that 766 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 3: the media is getting these very basic facts wrong is 767 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: both embarrassing and a reminder of how important it is 768 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 3: to be vetting the records that their claims are based on, 769 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 3: because this is elementary stuff. I'm not trying to just 770 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 3: ding them on. You know, the errors that invariably occur 771 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 3: when you're reporting on something in real time, that's unavoidable. 772 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 3: But to but to to say this is an iraniant 773 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 3: hack just misunderstands the very basis of how the US 774 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 3: intelligence system even works. 775 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: Well said, Ken, thank you so much for sharing with 776 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: us you're reporting. Tell people how they can follow you 777 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: in and support your work. 778 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 3: We run a substock and that's at Ken Klippenstein dot 779 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: substack dot com. 780 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 4: Always great to see you, my friends. 781 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: Good luck with that next visit from the FBI and 782 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: that second Yeah you got that guy, are going to 783 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: be buddies. 784 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll put out some coffee for you. You got 785 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 3: to record it. You got to record it. That's I 786 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 3: got to get a ring camera this time. So just memorize, lawyer. 787 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: I have nothing to say, listen, I just have to say, 788 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: you have some balls, my friend, and I really respect 789 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: the hell out of you for it. 790 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 4: All right, take care, can We'll see you soon, bio. 791 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for watching, we appreciate you. 792 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: Become a premiusubscriber if you can't otherwise from Steam