1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. On July nineteenth, twenty twelve, 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: a gay couple came into Masterpiece Cake Shop in Lakewood, Colorado, 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: asking for a customed wedding cake. The owner, Jack Phillips, 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: had a brief conversation with him and explained that he 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: could not bake that particular cake, who was willing to 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: make other items for him. The couple sued Phillips and 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: I went to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, a panel 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: of seven appointees who said that he had violated the 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Colorado Anti Discrimination Act. After several appeals, the case went 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, and Phillips won that case on 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: June fourth, twenty eighteen, by a vote of seven to 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: two because they ruled that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: had discriminated against Phillips. Philip's case is just one of 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: many legal battles happening across the United States over religious 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: liberty and religious freedom. Jack phillips new book, The Cost 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: of My Faith, How a decision in My Cake Shop 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: took Me to the Supreme Court, is available now. I'm 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome my two guests, Jack Phillips, cakemaker and author, 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: and Jake Warner, legal counsel for the Alliance Defending Freedom. 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: Let me start, if I might, by asking Jake how 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: many cases are there across the US like Jackson? When 22 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: you look out at the assault on religious liberty, how 23 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: much do you see around the country. We have a 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: lot of cases going on right now, just like Jack's case, 25 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: all around the country. Even I can think of a few. 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: For example, we are representing a photographer in New York 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: as well as one in Kentucky and Virginia, challenging a 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: law that's very similar to the one that Colorado has 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: used us to punish jack with. These photographers are concerned. 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,639 Speaker 1: What they're seeing is that government officials are overreaching, trying 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: to use their public accommodation laws to punish speakers that 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: they agree with, and instead of waiting until they're facing 33 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: fines and sometimes even jail time in some of our cases, 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: these folks have decided to sue to see their constitutional 35 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: rights before they get violated. So this is an increasing 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: problem and the future actually is a little bit more 37 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: concerning with the advent of the Equality Act on the 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: federal level. With the so called Equality Act passes through 39 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: Congress and President Biden's signs the Equality Act. What we 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 1: could see is that one of these laws that's being 41 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: used to punish people like Jack being imposed at the 42 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: national level, which could bring a threat to every creative 43 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: professional around the country. I actually think they ought to 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: call that the Supremacy Act, because it basically says that 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: your sexual behavior is supreme over religion and over God, 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: and that the government will intervene to punish you if 47 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: you don't accept the reality that sex is more important 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: than religion, which is, if you think about it, in 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: the last thirty five years, this is an astonishing transition 50 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: from a country that valued and still for the average American, 51 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: values religious liberty to a country that's willing to use 52 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: the power of the government to impose social values and 53 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: to punish people who believe that God really matters and 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: that their understanding of God really matters. So let me 55 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: ask as part of this legal process, and I'm going 56 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: to get back to Jack in a minute. But his 57 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: case got to the Supreme Court. But the court is 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: petitioned with like eight to ten thousand cases a year 59 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: and only takes seventy or eighty of them. What's your 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: sense of the Court's openness to these kind of cases. 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: I think the Court is very concerned about the government 62 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: overreach happening cases just like Jackson might remember. In Jack's case, 63 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: when it was working its way through the state court 64 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: system in Colorado, state officials really mistreated Jack. They compared 65 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: his plea for religious freedom to some of the worst 66 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: things in history, such as the Holocausts and defenses used 67 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: to justify slavery, and that was awful. But the US 68 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: Supreme Court was also concerned about the discrimination that the 69 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: state had imposed on Jack. While Jack's first case was 70 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: working its way through the court system, three other cake 71 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: artists in Colorado declined to create custom cakes for a 72 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Christian man with those cake express messages that violated their 73 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: core beliefs. But instead of prosecuting those cake artists, state 74 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: officials let them off the hook and decided not to 75 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: pursue a case against them. Yet they vigilantly tried to 76 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: prosecute and punish Jack for declining to express a message 77 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: that went against his faith. And when the case got 78 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: up to the US Supreme Court, the Supreme Court said, 79 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: that's wrong. That violates free exercise clause. State officials demonstrated 80 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: their hostility against Jack by those hostile comments as well 81 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: as its unequal treatment. And in that way, the court 82 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: didn't even have to reach the free speech issue involved 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: in Jack's first case. And that's why we're seeing a 84 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: lot of other cases populating through the federal court system, 85 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: and I believe that one of those cases will ultimately 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: reach the US Supreme Court, and I'm confident that the 87 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court is going to say that the government 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: has no power to force people to express messages that 89 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: go against their core beliefs. This is a principle that 90 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: protects everyone, not just Jack Phillips and people who share 91 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: his views on life's most important issues like marriage and sex. 92 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: This is a principle that protects everyone, including the creative 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: professionals who identifies LGBT and wish to promote messages consistent 94 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: with their deepest beliefs. So this is a good thing 95 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: for every American. I mean, this is a core of values. 96 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: Part of why the country was founded was by people 97 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: fleeing persecution in Europe, and I think they felt very 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: deeply about protecting religion from government interference. CLIs and I 99 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: did a book in a movie a couple of years 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: ago called Rediscovering God in America, which takes you from 101 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: monument to monument in Washington and shows you the relationship 102 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: between God and each of the key founding fathers. And 103 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: you look at that and you realize that everything has 104 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: been sort of turned on its head, and what you 105 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: now get is persecuted for actually believing a God. Let 106 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: me go and ask Jack, Let's go way back before 107 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: your legal involvements. How did you get into designing and 108 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: decorating cakes. Well, it goes all the way back to 109 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: my childhood. I just always grew up drawing and painting 110 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: and sculpting, and art was my main hobby and I 111 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: just love to do it. When I got into high 112 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: school and was introduced to the concept of electives, every 113 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: elective I could I would take in the art room. 114 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: I loved art, but I needed a job after I graduated, 115 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: and a man that lived across the street from me 116 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: owned a large wholesale bakery, maybe a hundred employees, I 117 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: don't know. If it was a huge place with conveyor 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: belts full of donuts and things like that, and I 119 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: fell in love with baking. I thought, someday I'll open 120 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: my own bakery. And then he bought out another bakery 121 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: that had cake decorators, and he brought them in and 122 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: I saw them working on hundreds of cakes at a time, 123 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: but one cake at a time and one custom cake 124 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: at a time. And I knew that I could merge 125 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: my love for art with my new love for baking, 126 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: and so I decided to open my own bakery. And 127 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: I knew what it would be called. It would be 128 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: called Masterpiece cake Shop, because masterpiece says cake shop says cakes. 129 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: You're not going to come in looking for a loaf 130 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: of bread or a pie or something like that. So 131 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: it was just kind of a natural flow of the 132 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: way God made me and the situations he put me in. 133 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: What year did you open your cake shop? We opened 134 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: it in nineteen ninety three Labor Day weekend, which is 135 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: the worst time to open a cake shop because you're 136 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the cake season, so to speak. 137 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: You know, wedding cakes. You think of June weddings, but 138 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: they go June through September take all year, but those 139 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: are the busiest time. And September we were opening up 140 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: in a shopping center that was like seventy percent empty. 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: Plenty of parking that way, but it was an odd time. 142 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: To start. I knew that if we were successful here, 143 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: it was because God was taking care of us and 144 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: covering everything we needed. And I can never take any 145 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: credit for anything that happened. That's amazing. You know, I 146 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: hadn't thought about the idea of cake season. You've expanded 147 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: my thinking. So you go along, you have a successful 148 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: masterpiece cake shop, and when does trouble start? Because we're 149 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: doing fine. You apparently have customers would like you, and 150 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: I gather you were reasonably successful. Yeah, we were gaining 151 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: a great reputation in the Denver area for our cakes. 152 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: When we would show up at a venue, the people 153 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: at the venue would say, oh great, and it's a 154 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: masterpiece cake. We know it's going to be right, we 155 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: know it's going to be good, we know everything's going 156 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: to go well. And we were doing really well. But 157 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: there were cakes that we decided right from the beginning 158 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: that we wouldn't create. The media kind of portrays me 159 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: is just you know, I don't make cakes for gay people, 160 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: and that's just not true. I serve everybody that comes 161 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: in my store. I just can't create every cake with 162 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: every message of people ask me to create. Like from 163 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: the beginning, my wife and I sat down and had 164 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: numerous discussions about what the cake shop would look like 165 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: and which cakes we could create, which ones we could not, 166 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: And among those cakes, we decided we wouldn't create cakes 167 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: to celebrate Halloween, which is another big season in the 168 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: cake world, but we decided that that was something that 169 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: we couldn't create because of the message that I felt 170 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: that it conveyed. And then cakes that were anti American, 171 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: or cakes that were racist, or kikes that would detegrate 172 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: or insult people, including people who identify as LGBT, But 173 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: we also knew that we couldn't create cakes for We 174 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: discussed cakes for same sex weddings, even though a way 175 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: back in ninety three when we opened and early nineties 176 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: when we were having these discussions, it wasn't legal in Colorado, 177 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: wasn't legal anywhere in the states, and no government official 178 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: could endorse the same sex wedding officially from their office. 179 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: So there were many things that led us to this 180 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: decision to day that the two men came in in 181 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: July of twenty twelve, Did you have any idea at 182 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,599 Speaker 1: all that was going to become this big of fight. No. 183 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: When I sat down with the two men, we had 184 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: about a twenty second conversation. You know, we made introductions Jack, David, Charlie, 185 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: and I said what can I do for you? David said, 186 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: we're here to look at wedding cakes, and Charlie piped up, 187 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: it's for our wedding. And so immediately knew that this 188 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: was a cake that I couldn't create, because a wedding 189 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: cake has an inherit message. It expresses marriage and weddings 190 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: just by itself. If you walked into a conference room 191 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: at a hotel and you saw a table in the 192 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: corner with the cake on it, you wouldn't think twice 193 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: that it was a business meeting. You would know instinctively 194 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: that a wedding was taken place and a marriage was 195 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: to be celebrated. So I knew that this was not 196 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: a cake that I could create, because it's an entirely 197 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: different view of marriage in my biblical view. So I 198 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: had hope that we couldn't have a conversation and I 199 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: could explain those feelings to him, that I couldn't create 200 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: that cake, that I would create other products for them, 201 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: other custom work. And what I said then was, sorry, guys, 202 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: I don't two cakes for same sex weddings, and they 203 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: kind of looked at me, stunned, like, what did you 204 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: just say. I'll say your birthday cakes, I'll sell your 205 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: shower cakes. I'll say your cookies and brownies, indicating I'll 206 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: do other custom work and you're welcome in my store, 207 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: but I just can't create a cake for a same 208 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: sex wedding, at which point they jumped up. David flipped 209 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: me offs four a mean stormed out of one door, 210 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: yelling all the way. The other man went over. I 211 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: didn't realize that his mom was sitting at a table, 212 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: gathered her up, and they left too, and I was 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: stunned that this happened. I didn't get a chance to 214 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: have a dialogue with these two men. It just exploded. 215 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: Do you think they came in knowing? You would say, no? 216 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: Was it a setup? No? I honestly believe that the 217 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: King in looking for a cake that we would create 218 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: for them. One of the folders that they had was 219 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: from a really nice restaurant here in town that recommends 220 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: people to our shop to create things like that and 221 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: had sent them. So I think they honestly came in 222 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: looking for a cake, and we're surprised that I couldn't 223 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: create it for them. When you were ruled against by 224 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, how did that impact your business? Well, 225 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: the initial ruling from the colorad Civil Rights Division was 226 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: that I had to change my policies and retrain my 227 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: staff and report to the commission quarterly for two years 228 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: on my progress in this retraining program. And fortunately this 229 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: is a very small place. My mom works here, my 230 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: wife and I own it. My daughter works here. But 231 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: my mom came to me one day shortly after that 232 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: and said, just for your information, I won't be retrained, 233 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: and so that's pretty cool, mom, thank you. But the 234 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: other thing that went along with that was to the 235 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: retraining and changing my policy meant that I would have 236 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: to start creating wedding cakes for everybody who came in 237 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: same sex couples or not. And I actually wouldn't even 238 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: have the option of helping the design on the cake. 239 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: If they wanted an adult theme cake, for instance, or 240 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: pornographic cake, even I wouldn't be able to decline that cake, 241 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't even be able to help design it 242 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: in a way that would be consistent with my beliefs. 243 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: So we had to make the decision of do we 244 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: bow down to this and make every wedding cake that 245 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: comes in and go against our faith, or give up 246 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: our wedding business, which was lucrative. It was a large 247 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: percentage of our income. And the choice was easy, but 248 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: it was difficult. At the same time. It was easy 249 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: to make the choice, we knew what the choice would be, 250 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: but losing that business was something we would have to 251 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: rely on God to cover for us and provide our needs. 252 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: Did you get any kind of positive support out of 253 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: the community. We did. We had a lot of positive 254 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: support from the community. Initially we had tons and tons 255 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: of papeful phone calls and emails. But one example of 256 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: support from the community came from a game man, Mike Jones, 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: who introduced himself. One morning a radio station was doing 258 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: a live broadcast and he wanted to come in and 259 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: see who this man was who wouldn't serve days, and 260 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: we talked for a little bit. He came back later 261 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: in the same day, and since then we've become good friends, 262 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: and he even testified for us in our most recent 263 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: trial in late March. So that's kind of an example 264 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: of support we've gotten. Hornamently, you decided to appeal the 265 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: Colorado Civil Rights Commission decision. How did you reach that conclusion? 266 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: That was just the next logical step. Alliance Defending Freedom 267 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: was on our side right from the start. Within three 268 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: or four days of the confrontation with David and Charlie, 269 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: I was in touch with Alliance Defending Freedom and they 270 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: told me that they could represent us, and their advice 271 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: was to appeal to the Colorado Court of Appeals. And 272 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: we did that and that argument, I forget what year was, 273 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: two thirteen went against us three to nothing. The three 274 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: judges on the panel rule against us. So the next 275 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: step would be to appeal to the Colorado State Supreme Court, 276 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: which we did and they denied our case. And so 277 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: there's only one option after that, and that was the 278 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court. Like you said earlier, their petition 279 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: with eight thousand to ten thousand cases a year then 280 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: only take about seventy. So the odds of them taking 281 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: our case were very slim. And I was talking with 282 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: the attorneys, you know, if we file the petition and 283 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: they deny it, what's the worst that could happen. They're 284 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: already not hearing our case. They would just officially say 285 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: we're not hearing your case, and my attorneys inform me 286 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: that that's not the worst that could happen. The worst 287 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: that could happen is they grant your case, they hear it, 288 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: and then you lose. And I realized at that point 289 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: that this was not just Jack and his case and 290 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: Jack and his bakery. This is about every American's right 291 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: to freely express messages or not being compelled to express 292 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: messages that they will go against. And how large this 293 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: case actually could be in the Supreme Court when it 294 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: got to the Supreme Court, once they called and said 295 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: they're going to take your case, given how few cases 296 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: are actually taken. What was your emotional reaction When I 297 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: talk about it still, I catch my breath. I can't 298 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: think about that day without getting emotional. I couldn't talk 299 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: to anybody. I had to send text because it was 300 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: just such a phenomenal event. The news people started calling, 301 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: and radio, TV talk shows, TV stations were at our shop. 302 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: It was just crazy. But then at the same time, 303 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: that very same day, an attorney here in Colorado called 304 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: and requested a cake that was blue on the outside 305 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: and pink on the inside, and that those colors were 306 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: to celebrate a gender transition. Same thing. We told the 307 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: two men that came in asking for the wedding cake, 308 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: We told this person, you know, will create other cake 309 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: for you, other custom cakes. You're welcome to anything, any 310 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: of my wares, anything in the shop, but I can't 311 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: create that cake because it expresses a message that I 312 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: can't agree with. And then so that very day that 313 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: we were getting all this attention, we get this phone 314 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: call and we started up with what we call Masterpiece two. 315 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: This attorney filed a complaint with the same Colorado Civil 316 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: Rights Commission, and so that was looming in the background 317 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: all the way through the Supreme Court arguments. Do you 318 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: think this is just random or do you think they're 319 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: ultimately became sort of an organized effort to bankruptc You 320 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it's an organized effort, 321 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: but I do know that the attorney who's suing me 322 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: had already previously sent emails within a couple of weeks 323 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: of the two gentlemen leaving my shop back in twenty twelve, 324 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: and in between had asked to have us create a 325 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: cake with Satan smoking a Mariana joint. And clearly we 326 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: were in this person's crosshairs all this time. So organized 327 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: or not, this person has an agenda and a vendetta 328 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: against me. And we were told in mediation in this 329 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: third case that was assert in August, sat down with 330 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: this person, the attorney, and the mediator, myself, just the 331 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: three of us, and this attorney told me that if 332 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: I won this case, or if it was dismissed on 333 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: any technicality or anything, that I would get a phone 334 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: call the next day with another cake and we would 335 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: start up. So it's aways from being over. I mean, 336 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: is it there a point I guess I'm asking you, Jacob, 337 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: asking you this as a lawyer, isn't there some point 338 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: where it becomes harassment? Yeah? I think that's what we're 339 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: seeing here in this third case, the emails that Jack 340 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: received back in twenty and twelve, we're not kind. This 341 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: attorney email Jack to call him a bigot and a hypocrite, 342 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: and then on the same day that the US Supreme 343 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: Court decides to hear Jack's first case, this attorney calls 344 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: Jack and requests this custom pink and blue cake to 345 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: celebrate a gender transition, and then a few months later 346 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: calling Jack back to ask for a custom cake to 347 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: pay Satan smoking marijuana, and then most recently, this attorney 348 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: promised to be back, you know, if this case gets dismissed, 349 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: like Jack said, for any reason, this attorney would be 350 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: back the very next day with a new cake and 351 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: a new lawsuit. And this is just harassment. I think 352 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: we're seeing more of that across the country. Overreaching officials 353 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: as well as activists now are weaponizing the judicial system 354 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: to try to punish people that they disagree with. And 355 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: there are certainly things that we can do in litigation. 356 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: We can ask for attorney's fees and that kind of thing, 357 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: But I think what we ultimately need is for the 358 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court to weigh in on this issue and 359 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: finally say that the government doesn't have the power to 360 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: force people like Jack, who serve everyone but just can't 361 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: express every message. The government can't force them to express 362 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: messages that go against their deepest conviction, because, like I 363 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: said earlier, this is a principle that protects everyone, and 364 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: we need to stop trying to punish those we disagree 365 00:19:53,520 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: with and manipulating the judicial system that way. Jake, I'm curious, 366 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: from your standpoint as an attorney, what was your emotional 367 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: reaction when the court said they would take the case. 368 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: It was relief, it was joy. It was a little 369 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: bit of a scary thing too, because we didn't know 370 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: exactly what the outcome of the case would be. And 371 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: like Jack said earlier, you know, one of the challenges 372 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: here is that if the court took the case, you know, 373 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: one of the challenging results would have been, like, well, 374 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: what if Jack loses? That was a big thing on 375 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: our mind at the time. Certainly, we were thrilled to 376 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: present Jack's case before the court, but there was certainly 377 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: that looming thought in the background, what if it doesn't 378 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: go the right way? What if freedom for every American 379 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: is jeopardized by an adverse decision in this case. So 380 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: there were certainly mixed them otions and looking back on 381 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: this side of things, certainly it was a great thing 382 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: and we're so thankful that the court vindicated Jack's rights. 383 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious, did you appear before the court. No, My colleague, 384 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: ADF General Counsel Kristin Wagner argued the case on behalf 385 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: of Jack. I along with a number of other attorneys 386 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: where they are in the court to watch the arguments. 387 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: But Kristin Wagner are general counsel, argued the case. Did 388 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: you get a sense from the questions that we're being 389 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: asked that the court was favorable to Jack? You know 390 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: I did. And the reason I say that is about 391 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: midway through Kristen's argument, Justice Kennedy entered the conversation and 392 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: really expressed concern about the state's hostility against Jack. And 393 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: actually this is with the state's attorney presenting the argument 394 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: that Justice Kennedy asked Colorado's attorney whether he would back 395 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: down from the coastal comments that the commission had spoken 396 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: against Jack and its faith. The attorney kind of wavered 397 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: for a minute or two, and Justice Kennedy had to 398 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: re ask the question one or two more times, and 399 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: the attorney finally backed down. But that was a little 400 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: hint that Justice Kennedy was seeing, like, well, there's a 401 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: free exercise problem with this case, and I'm concerned with 402 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: how the state treated Jack, not only with these hostile comments, 403 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: but with the unequal treatment, how they treated Jack worse 404 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: than every other cake artist in Colorado. So those hints 405 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: gave us hope as we were walking out the courtroom 406 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: that day. The Automan decision was seven to two. Who 407 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: are the two justices that we're against? Relief. It was 408 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: a big win, seven to two. The two justices on 409 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: the other side of the decision were Justice Ginsburg and 410 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: Justice stod Am I or so today it might be 411 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: eight to one. It's very possible. We think that the 412 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: free exercised violation was so clear in Jack's first case, 413 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: with the hostile comments and the unequal treatment. We think 414 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: that if another case goes up to the US Supreme 415 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: Court on this same issue, the free speech issue, that 416 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: we're confident that the Court's going to rule in favor 417 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: of freedom, protecting the right of every creative professional to 418 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: express messages consistently with their core beliefs. Jack, you wrote 419 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: a book, The Cost of My Faith, How a decision 420 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: on a cake shop took me to the Supreme Court. 421 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: What would your advice be to others? You've paid a 422 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: real price. Personally, you've paid a real price. Economically. You 423 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: must have had sleepless nights. Is it worth it to 424 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: fight for your freedom? Or would you tell other people 425 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: maybe they ought to sort of compromise. Absolutely, And to 426 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: be honest with you, mister speaker, I have not had 427 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: any sleepless nights over this. When the two men left 428 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: my shop, there was about an hour where I was 429 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: just in a fog, like, what in the world just happened? 430 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: And you didn't get a chance to talk to these 431 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: two men. What's going on? I'm getting all these phone 432 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: calls already, like the whole world hates me. They're all 433 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: going to call me, and you know what's going on? 434 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: And a Bible verse popped into my mind from Paul's 435 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: Leonardatimothy that God has not given us a spirit of fear, 436 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: but of love and of power and of a sound mind. 437 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: And I wasn't afraid, but sound mind parts struck me 438 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: that God was in absolute control of this. And from 439 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: that moment to this I've been at complete peace with 440 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: everything that's happened. But I would say to every American 441 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: that at the beginning, my wife and I drew our 442 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: lines in the sand which cakes we would create, which 443 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: case we couldn't, And it's always because of the message. 444 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: It's never the person who's asking for it. But we 445 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: drew those lines in the sand and knew that we 446 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: couldn't cross them. And I was also saying that we 447 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: decided not to create cakes to celebrate Halloween, which is 448 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: a huge season in the cake world, and so every year, 449 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: we get plenty of practice telling people I'm sorry, we 450 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: can't create that cake. You know, I can't express that message. 451 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: So God prepared us for when this big case came 452 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: up how to stand and that he would be with us. 453 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: So no sleepless nights and complete trusting God. And I 454 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: would advise people, you know, draw your lines, know where 455 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: they are, and know that they're worth defending. When you 456 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: go around Colorado, we're people will have a more they 457 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: are understanding of this case and greater awareness of it 458 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: than in the country at large. Do you run into 459 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: much personal hostility. No. If people recognize me and they 460 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: disagree with me, more than likely they're going to just 461 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: turn away and not say anything. Occasionally I get the 462 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: opportunity to have conversations like that, and that's one of 463 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: the reasons that I wrote the costume. My faith that 464 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: people who don't have the chance to talk to me, 465 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: or they live in another state and can't come by 466 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: the cake shop and see what this is really all about, 467 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: I can hear my story. Initially, I wanted to write 468 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: it so that my kids and my grandkids would be 469 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: able to understand what actually happened that day. But now 470 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: I realize what a larger platform I have and how 471 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: many people that I can hopefully encourage and inspire to 472 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: stand for their deep convictions. Jake, do you have cases 473 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: all over the country. Do you see the pressure is growing? 474 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: Is it harder for people to stand up for their faith? Now? 475 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: We're seeing this issue pop up all around the country, 476 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: and I think what people are doing is they're looking 477 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: at the cases of Jack, They're looking at the case 478 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: of Washington Florists Baronel Stutzman, and they're saying, Wow, I 479 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: never thought that the government would have this much power 480 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: or that it would be this hostile to my faith. 481 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: And so what they're saying is, I want to know 482 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: my constitutional rights on the front end before I'm sitting 483 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: in the defendants chair in one of these lawsuits, are 484 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: perhaps sitting in jail because of trying to live out 485 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: my faith at my work. So what they're doing is 486 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: is they're going on offense and saying, look, I want 487 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: to know my rights up front, and they're challenging these 488 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: unjust laws are more particularly these unjust applications of laws 489 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: all around the country. And what we're seeing is that 490 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: when folks are doing that, they're winning in many cases. 491 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: For example, ADF has represented a calligrapher and painter here 492 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: in Arizona. They create wedding invitations, and what they said was, 493 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, we want to create custom wedding invitations consistently 494 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: with our faith to promote God's design for marriage. But 495 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: what the government here in Arizona said was in the 496 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: city of Phoenix, was that if you did that, you 497 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: would have to come in and also create custom artwork 498 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: celebrating same sex marriage, which went against their Christian beliefs 499 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: on the subject. So we filed soon on their behalf, 500 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: and that case went all the way up to the 501 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: Arizona Supreme Court, and that decision came out the right way. 502 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: The Arizona Supreme Court affirmed their constitutional freedom to live 503 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: out their faith consistently with their beliefs at work. The 504 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: same was true in a case we filed in Minnesota 505 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: on behalf of Carlin Angel Larson. They are two filmmakers 506 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: who create wedding films, and like a painter and calligrapher 507 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: in Arizona, they wanted to find out their rights on 508 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: the front end and sued Minnesota officials and they appealed 509 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: their case up to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, 510 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: and that court also affirmed their right to create wedding 511 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: films consistently with their beliefs. And then I mentioned earlier, 512 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: ADF has a number of cases around the country. We're 513 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: representing a web designer also in Colorado. Her case is 514 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: at the Tenth Circuit right on the doorstep of the 515 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court right now. We're waiting for a decision 516 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: in that case. And then we're representing photographers in multiple 517 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: states on the East Coast. So this is an issue 518 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: that is growing nationwide, and we think that there's going 519 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: to be a case soon at the US Supreme Court 520 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: finally resolve this issue. That's really amazing. Well, we're going 521 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: to post on our show page both a link to 522 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: Jack's book and a link to your organization, so that 523 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: people who want to pursue this will know how to 524 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: reach out to you and how to be helpful. And 525 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: at the same time, people want to learn more about 526 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: the process can get Jack's book, which is I think 527 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: very helpful. Let me just say that I think what 528 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: you're doing shows great courage, is in the best American tradition. 529 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: I'm delighted that you would take the time to share 530 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: with me and with our audience what you've been through, 531 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: and I hope that it will encourage people to be 532 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: a little more militant and standing up for their rights 533 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: as free people and not allowing the government or some 534 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: small minority group to impose a radical change by using 535 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: the power of the state. And I want to thank 536 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: both of you for joining me today. Mister Speaker, I 537 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: just want to thank you for having us on this 538 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: show today. It's such an honor and a privilege to 539 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: do this. Thanks, mister Speaker. It was a true privilege 540 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: being with you today on your show. It's an honor. 541 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Jack Phillips and Jake Warner, 542 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: the legal counsel for the Alliance Defending Freedom. A link 543 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: to Jack's new book, The Cost of My Faith, How 544 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: a decision of My Cake Shop took Me to the 545 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court is available on our show page at newtsworld 546 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Newts World is produced by Gingwich, Sweet sixty 547 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer 548 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peters. Your 549 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: work for the show was created by Steve Penley Special 550 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwich Sweet sixty. If you've 551 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: been enjoying newts World, hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 552 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 553 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 554 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners at Newsworld can sign up for my 555 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Kingridge three sixty dot com 556 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingridge. This is Newtsworld.