WEBVTT - Is It Possible Nowadays to Renovate a Golf Course on a Tight Budget? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.920 In a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.840 Friday Frida Egg, fridagg Bride Egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.640 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:36.840 course game. Welcome to the Friday Egg Golf Podcast. I'm 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.760 Garrett Morrison, and today we're talking about how to carry 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.839 out a golf course renovation on a very tight budget. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.879 My guest is Clay Paine, who is the superintendent at 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.839 Buffalo Dunes in Garden City, Kansas. Buffalo Dunes is a 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.880 municipal golf course that you'll be hearing a lot about 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.440 in the coming years, and that's because Clay Paine, along 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:03.640 with the Archet Zach Vardy, is undertaking a six year 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.120 renovation that is going to leave this course looking like 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.800 a cross between prairie dunes and Wildhorse. That's not an exaggeration. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.400 The work really looks that good right now. And maybe 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.759 the most impressive thing about this project is the cost. 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.240 It's way less than most renovations that are happening today. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.320 There is a good article on this topic recently by 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:33.120 Bradley Klein in the USGA Green Section Record. This article 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.160 is called Managing the Rising Cost of Golf Course Renovations, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.399 And basically what I found out from this article is 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:45.360 that the standard cost of major course renovations, and we're 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:50.920 talking about replacing irrigation, drainage, greens, bunkers, cart paths, this 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.640 has become sort of the standard renovation. It is a 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.919 big project, but this is what we're used to talking 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:02.280 about when we talk about updating a golf course. That 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.880 sort of project has risen into the ten to twenty 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.840 million dollar range, maybe higher. So jobs that used to 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:15.359 cost five million are now more like fifteen million. And 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.240 needless to say, that's that's a disturbing trend. It's obvious 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.760 why it's happening. There are inflation issues, there are supply 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.440 issues when it comes to the labor that carries out 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.400 these projects, So I get why it's happening. But what 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.480 the threat here is is an increase in the disparity 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.600 between the affordable public golf that most of us play 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.440 and the high end private and resort golf that sets 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.200 the example for what golf course architecture should look like. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.880 That disparity is dangerous, right, and so one of the 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.600 most important things that we can talk about right now 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:57.440 in golf is how to do quality renovations on a budget. Now, 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.840 Clay Pain is the first to admit that he has 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:02.960 a lot of advantages at Buffalo Dunes. He's got a 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.720 sandy site. There's no need for a new irrigation system. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.680 It's basically surface drainage throughout the site. They don't need 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.200 the bunker liners and stuff like that. But it's still 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.760 striking that he and Zach Vardy are doing the kinds 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.360 of things that at most courses are costing millions of 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:25.560 dollars and Clay and zachert doing them for tens of 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.639 thousands of dollars instead with the help of Clay's staff. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.640 So I figure it's incredibly worthwhile to get his perspective 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.680 on how exactly he's managing this. Clay is a super 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.040 impressive young superintendent. I think he just gets it in 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.760 a number of ways, whether you're talking about agronomy or 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.480 architecture or the culture that he's trying to develop within 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.200 his staff. So I'm very excited for you all to 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.800 hear from him first. Though this episode is an installment 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.920 in our Superintendent series. So of course it is brought 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.680 to you by none other than Toro and specifically the 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.520 Toro Workman MDX Lithium up and down Ham and Egg. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.240 To the list of great golf pairings, we can now 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:13.280 add the Toro Workman MDX and electrification. For more than 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.479 two decades, the Workman MDX has been the Superintendent's trusty sidekick, 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.760 a rugged utility vehicle for whatever the job is. And 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.120 now it's the same, except the Workmen MDX Lithium is 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:31.080 powered by Toro's proprietary hyper cell lithium ion batteries, meaning 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.440 the chargers on board ready to be connected to any 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.560 standard one hundred and twenty volt power outlet whenever, wherever. 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.600 Less time checking batteries and more time getting stuff done 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:47.760 with the same power and durability. That's another great golf pairing, 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.040 a win win. So visit Toro dot com, slash golf 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.480 and reach out to your local Toro distributor for more information. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:08.600 All right, let's get to Clay pain All right, I'm 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:13.120 here with Clay Paine. Clay, you grew up in Cimarron, Kansas, 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.680 about thirty minutes from where you currently work in Garden City, Kansas. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.560 This is the southwestern part of the state, maybe not 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.159 a region that many people have been to. What kinds 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.480 of golf courses did you grow up playing in the area. 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.920 Yeah, Cimarron is a nine hole golf course. I previously, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.559 until about fifth grade lived twenty miles north of town, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.200 and about fifth grade we moved in and at the 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.240 time the nine hole golf course was sand greens, So 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.679 I grew up playing the first two years sand green 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.480 golf course, which is awesome. It's fun target golf. 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.080 Yeah, I mean that's like a thing in Kansas, right 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.479 is the sand green courses are a part of the 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:56.440 golf culture out there. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.000 Yeah, they still have a sand green State championship, so 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.919 it's of a cool niche of the golf market. But 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.760 about two thousand, the community came together and raised funds 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.080 and actually built all of a brand new nine hole 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.320 golf course. So they did all of the irrigation, they 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.640 did all of the the grassing, they built a clubhouse. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.040 Looking back on it now, that was kind of maybe 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.800 the roots that I've built upon, you know, into this 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.560 current project and how we're doing it. But you know, 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.320 at the time, it was a blast being a fifth 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.520 sixth grader going up after school and working with your 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.080 with your dad and putting an irrigation and building a 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:38.599 golf course. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.680 I was wondering about this actually because I looked up 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.760 Cimarron on Google Earth and saw this little, nice looking 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.880 golf course right next to town, like it's right pressed 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.039 up against the town. And I saw that it was 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.159 built in the early two thousands, and I figured this 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.520 must have been when you were a kid. So you 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.279 were actually you actually saw this project kind of play out. 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.440 Oh yeah, we're I was able to just walk across 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.919 the street and so I was right there in the 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.400 middle of it, and uh yeah, seeing it go from 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:12.640 the sand greens to we They hired out the shaping, 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.120 but everything else was done through community members and volunteers. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.960 So yeah, it was kind of cool to see that, 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:20.400 especially at an early age. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.440 So going back to the sand greens, you know, can 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.760 you can you can you just describe from somebody who's 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.320 never you know, I've actually never played on sand greens. 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.120 It's a it's a hole in my golf resume. I've 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:33.840 seen people play on them. I think a lot of 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.560 people maybe aren't even familiar with how you would go 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.000 about playing golf on sand greens, So what's what's the 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.120 whole process there? 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.480 Uh, that golf course was non irrigated, so it's all 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:48.400 buffalo grass fairways and tea's tea areas. And then once 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.600 you get up to the green we're talking, they're not 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.239 contour because they don't want the sand to wash away, 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.560 so they're flat, and then they have an oiled sand 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.840 and that sand being oiled can pass and so you 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.600 and I hit onto the green and then there's utensils 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.160 that are setting aside the green, and you go and 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.720 you drag an iron from you mark your ball, put 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.760 it to the side, and then you drag a line 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.600 with that iron, and then you put your ball and 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.040 then you go back in like you were raking a 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.440 bunker and you re rake it for the golfers behind you. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.800 That's fantastic. I love that. And you know, there are 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.720 a few places of course in Kansas as well as 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.920 elsewhere that still have sand greens, some that are in 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.319 extreme climates and things like that where they can't have 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.360 you know the typical kinds of golf turf grasses. But 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.600 it's definitely it's it's a way to play. You can 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.760 do it like they roll pretty nicely for what they 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:45.400 are right. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.200 Well, And it's just kind of a pure form of golf. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.080 It doesn't have to be perfect. You're just going out 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.200 there because you want to swing and be with your friends, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.120 and so, yeah, I think that that could catch on. 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.080 It doesn't have to be I mean, it might be 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:00.840 part golf. It might be a little pitch and put 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.640 sand green course in your park, you know, so it 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.400 doesn't have to be the full full deal. So yeah, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.520 it was a pure fun way to play and grow up. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.560 Yeah, it's certainly a way to keep maintenance costs under 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.040 control and under control as well, you know, with the 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.400 changing climate and all that. So, you know, fast forwarding 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.200 a little bit in your life, you ended up going, 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.480 assuming my research is right here, you ended up going 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.960 to Hutchinson Community College for a couple of years before 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.280 transferring to k State where you did your your turf degree. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.760 When you were in Hutchinson, did you spend any time 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.920 at the famous Prairie Dunes Country Club, one of the 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:43.079 greatest courses in the world. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.079 I did not, and it is one of the one 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.320 of my all time regretsive, but what I let an 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.679 opportunity definitely slip. You know, at the time, I thought 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.839 that my way into golf was chasing the golf ball 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.520 around and playing, and so I didn't didn't even think 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.880 about the maintenance side of it thoroughly. At that point. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.800 I had worked on golf courses, but you know, still 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.600 was probably young and arrogant enough to think that I 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.480 could do this for a living. And yeah, one of 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:18.440 my biggest regrets Corey then superintendent there now that they're 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.200 an inspiration for for Buffalo Dunes and really Midwest golf. 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.840 Yeah, some of the work that you're doing at Buffalo Dunes, 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.240 which we'll talk about later on, has the distinct look 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.520 of it looks like prairie dunes like it really, it 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.120 really looks quite a bit like that, which is pretty 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.400 cool to see. So you said you were mainly into 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:41.200 competitive golf when you were younger. What's what's the basic 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.520 summary of your of your competitive career. 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.040 I didn't ever win a high school tournament, so that 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.440 should have been an indicator in a league. Ross Goobell 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:53.520 went on and played Division one golf and he beat 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.560 me by one every time, So it wasn't I wasn't 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.960 overly far from playing competitive golf, but far enough away 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.240 that there was red flags that if I was aware, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:07.079 I should should have detoured earlier on. So yeah, good 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.920 enough to think I was good, bad enough to not 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:10.760 ever be good. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.840 When did you figure out that you wanted to start 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.760 to work toward the career in turf. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.640 It was probably about that same time. So I came 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.280 back home and worked at Simmron, and I was fortunate 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.559 enough the superintendent took me to one of the superintendent 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:35.240 state golf tournaments. And that's a funny story how this 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.520 all rolled and played out. But I drove a green 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.520 and the person in front of me got mad and 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.680 kicked my ball off the green. Well, later on it 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.880 was all superintendent, so it wasn't that big a deal. 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.959 Later on in the clubhouse, this person was Trampis Nickel. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.200 He was the superintendent at Wamigo Country Club, which is 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.640 twenty miles from Kansas State, and he offered me a job, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:06.360 and so I took the job. He hires only Western 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.400 Kansas kids, so I didn't have to go through a 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:13.440 resume thing. We're kind of the ad kind of farm 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.239 side of the state, so he thought that that background 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.880 worked well for his staff. And yeah, that was the 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.000 break I needed in my career, because he led me 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.240 on and pushed me to Jackson Hole and he had 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:28.080 this kind of snowball. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.920 From there you went to a number of different places. 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:37.400 Eventually you found your way to Dismal River, which for 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.840 people who are familiar with the famous sand Hills Country 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.320 Club out near Mullen, Nebraska and the spectacular sand Hills 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.600 of Nebraska, Dismal River is the neighboring course and came 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.400 up a little bit later after sand Hills was built. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.760 You were working there? How did you? How did you 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.000 get there? What was the impetus to for applying for 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:02.200 that job? Getting that job? 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.960 So I traveled sixteen hours to Jackson Hole, Wyoming and 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:11.360 took the internship up there. The assistant superintendent turned out 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.439 he grew up in Cimarron, Kansas. Oh wow, oh yeah, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:21.160 a small world. After that season in Jackson he took 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.240 the superintendent job at Disneal River and asked if I 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:29.160 would like to come on board. So I, after school 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.320 went up there and was an assistant superintendent. At the 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.880 time of when I was hired was just the Nicholas Course. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.760 I think it was Jack Nicholas's two hundred and fiftieth design, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:42.920 So there was some cool stuff with that. It's an 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:50.600 exceptionally hard golf course, but the setting is spectacular. So yeah, 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.439 I was up there for two seasons and then the 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:58.600 ownership decided, Hey, there's an opportunity to do a second 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.000 golf course, and that's I was fortunate enough to be 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.280 be in those discussions and hire a firm and go 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:07.160 through that process. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.760 And this firm was Renaissance Golf Design. This is Tom 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.320 Doak's architecture firm. I think that listeners have probably heard 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.040 of this little outfit. You were on board during that 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:25.320 construction process. This is kind of a legendary project now 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.720 because of who was working on it, right, there was 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:32.560 there was a crew of very talented people there who 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.960 have gone on to do interesting things in the golf industry. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.080 So who was there and tell me a little bit 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.120 about what it was like working with them? 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.360 Yeah, I actually wrote down a list because this is 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.600 this is one of the highlights of my career. Was 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.240 kind of being the ag side, the soil side to 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.840 this band. Right we were Anyone that's traveled to Mullen, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.840 Nebraska knows that it's there's nothing else to do out 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.760 there for the most part. And so we would wake 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.800 up in the morning and we were it was golf 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.320 course construction, and we came in uh myself and the 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.720 superintendent would cook lunch for everyone, and it was golf 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.280 course construction talk at that point, and then we would 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.600 go do it again and then at night. And it 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.120 was just that way for for a full, you know, 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:21.400 growing cycle. And so uh some of the interns that 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:28.640 are was there, Uh Zach Vardy, Blake, Coenamp, Brett Hawk's team, Yaeger, 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:36.240 Coke Fitch, Clyde Johnson, Jonathan Reaesner, Connor Cummings, Ryan Yohans, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.160 James Burt uh and those are just the interns like this. 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.760 That was just that was just the young guns that 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:47.440 were out there with with Rakes and it was a blast. 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:49.560 And then they they were learning from the best. You 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:54.000 had Don Mahaffey and slam Brian Slonik and Brian Schneider 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.680 there and all of the upper echelon of Renaissance and 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.320 uh just created a wonderful environment. I was very fortunate 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.240 to be the grass guy in that band. 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:11.440 What did you learn about construction from seeing this process 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.080 play out? From seeing you know, Tom Doak lead a 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:20.320 project and Brian Schneider Brian Islonic implemented what were some 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.200 of the big takeaways about just what it means to 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:24.280 build a golf course. 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.960 Yeah, they obviously can say it in a more elegant way, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.560 but less is more, especially when you're on such a 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.040 site that's blessed, you know, like like the sand Hills 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:39.280 of Nebrasko are and so that that was fantastic. It 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.240 was also pretty humbling to see the guys that are 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.800 at the top of their industry, you know, allow some 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.200 of us to fail to push the limits and hey, 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.040 go go try something after hours, Go take a dozer 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.680 and see if you can make something cool. You know, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.120 if it doesn't work out, we'll push it in tomorrow 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.200 and we'll start over. That's you know, with only sand tunes, 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.160 you can get away with that. You know, it's not 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.280 a major cost issue. So being able to kind of 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.240 push the boundaries in some in some ways and trust 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:16.120 trust those young guys to see their potential was probably 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:17.440 the biggest takeaway. 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.000 As an It doesn't have to be perfect right away. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.320 You can go go out there, mess around and then 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.040 and then if it needs to be fixed, you can 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:24.680 fix it later. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.520 I guess, Yeah, that's why they're there, That's why the 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.320 the pros. Pros are there to mess up any anything. 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.680 But there was probably some cool features that came out 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.320 of that, and they would know more behind the scenes 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.760 than I did even of what was what was left 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.359 and what was you know, kind of pushed back and 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:42.600 amended later. 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.240 Well, So for people who aren't really familiar with how 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.680 like a construction crew is structured, you know, you were 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.960 overseeing kind of the growing or the turf aspects of 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.320 the construction process. What does that mean, Like what were 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.000 you doing on a day to day basis during construction 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.199 and did you get in and do any shaping or 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.840 watch shaping or you know, do some of the architectural 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.120 sides of it as well as the agronomic side of it. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.399 I watched the shaping just because I was interested in that. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.919 A golfer and trying to understand, you know, their theory 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.760 of you know, how the ground game, you know, was 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.320 kind of new to me. You know, growing up on 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.760 sand I was used to throwing it right to the 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:34.760 flag and so just being around them was fantastic. You know, 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.440 behind the scenes, we're making sure that you know, irrigations 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:44.119 going in, you know, ahead of the grassing their shape. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.679 They're rough shaping at first, and then irrigation is going 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:48.760 to follow that, and then those guys are going to 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.840 come in and fine tune it so their process will 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.080 go from a dozer down to a sand pro down 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.119 to a rake. And at that point we had enough 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.120 bottom on property that you know, we utilized the rake, 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.720 you know, in fairways and other areas that typically didn't 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.320 get that one inch difference, you know, might be lost 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.680 in the eighty acres worth of fairways. Those guys were, 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.800 they were nailed in it, and so it was fun. 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.000 And then for us making sure we're ahead of them 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.600 with irrigation, but then also coming back in once we've 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.720 sprayed grass. You know, that's when it's kind of in 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.560 our court as well, so making sure that the system 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.960 is watering where it needs to be and fertility and 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:33.879 everything else cool. 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.960 So yeah, I mean, that's that's quite an experience to 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.600 have early in your career, and I'm sure we'll hear 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.840 how it has has come to inform some of the 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:46.120 stuff that you're doing recently. But you know, in between 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.960 that experience at Dismal River and what you're doing now, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.280 my understanding is that you were at bally Meal, which 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:59.679 is another fantastic Tom Doak golf course, this one in 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.680 Holy Yoke, Colorado. How did you end up there? 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.399 So during that time, at the end of the grow in, 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.000 I was able to go up there and be the 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.679 superintendent for the first year at Dismal River of actual golf. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.879 I wanted to see that project through from prairie to 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.679 play and was able to accomplish that goal. But in 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.600 the meantime I was fortunate enough to marry my wife, Samantha. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.960 Turns out Mullen isn't the place that she thought we 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.800 needed to raise a family, and so there was a 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.040 time when I needed to look at other options. Bally 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.600 Neil was one of those. It fit the style that 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.640 I had fallen in love in love with at Dismal 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:46.320 River with the sand dunes, and Bally's about four years 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.920 or four four miles or excuse me, four hours from 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:55.120 Garden City, and so it was closer to people. And yeah, 0:20:55.160 --> 0:21:00.520 I went out there assistant superintendent under Lancelower and very 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.480 fortunate the first year we were maintaining only a golf course, 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:09.199 we were able to put in the I don't what 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.399 the commons I think is what they call it is 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:12.800 the one acre putting green. 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:15.159 Right, it's a big putting green. If you can envision 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.160 this like most of the buildings at Ballynial, the pro shop, 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.280 the restaurant, the lodging that they have kind of forums, 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.600 a courtyard, you know, and in the middle of this 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.880 courtyard type thing, is this massive putting green. 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.359 Yeah. Massive, like one hundred and one hundred and seventeen 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:36.600 yard I think is the longest putt you can have. 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.679 So so yeah, a lot bigger than what you're probably 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.239 thinking as you're trying to visualize how big this green is. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.520 But yeah, again, I was a right place, right tom. 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.720 I was fortunate enough to, you know, watch mister Goak 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:53.600 walk out in the dunes and try to find his 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.240 routing for the Mulligan course, which was the par three 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.600 course that was added the second year that I was there. 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:06.240 That was shaping, you know again, Brian Schnyder, Eric Iverson 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.280 I think jumped in a couple of times since he's 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:13.320 close and outside of the shaping, we did all the 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.160 irrigation work in house. We did all the grow in 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.359 as well, so that was a very busy summer but 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.000 one of the coolest additions to a golf course, I 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:24.720 think you can make. 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.840 Bally Neil has some of the most distinctive turf conditions 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:34.600 that I've ever experienced, certainly in America. So you know what, 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.239 what's special about the turf there? What what enables that 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:38.879 turf to be the way it is? 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.119 Yeah, I think the whole culture is what enables it 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:45.200 to be cool. It does. It's not perfect, and that's 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.080 not what this game is supposed to be. It's supposed 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.000 to be. And you know an experience. We're chasing this 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:52.320 little white ball around and having it, having a great time, 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.760 and that's that's kind of the that's what you get 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.480 from the moment you step on that property. And so 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:05.360 turf conditions out there, the dry and firmness, create opportunities 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.600 for you to play around. You're not worried about entering 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.480 a gin handicap at bally Neal. You're going to try 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:13.960 to make a shot that your friends want to remember 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.600 and talk about, you know, at the bar later. And 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.679 so I think it brings out a little bit of 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:24.399 you know, childhood playing and the conditions come into that. 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.080 You know, you if it's slow and soft, you're not 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.000 going to be able to hit up, you know, a 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.880