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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huts.

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Speaker 2: Let's Giant Giants, give me some job. Part of the

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Speaker 2: Giants Podcast Network's Roll. Welcome to another edition of the

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Speaker 2: Giants Huttle Podcast, brought to you by Citizens, the official

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Speaker 2: bank of the Giants. I am John Schmelk. Today's guest

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Speaker 2: is Doug Farrar. He's the editor for USA Today on

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Speaker 2: their football side, also the author of the Genius of Desperation,

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Speaker 2: a great book detailing scheme changes in the NFL over

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Speaker 2: the years. We'll touch on that and a whole lot more. Doug,

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Speaker 2: it's good to talk to you, man. I've admired your

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Speaker 2: work for a long time. Hope you're from the beginning

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Speaker 2: of your off season, even though we both know there

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Speaker 2: is no off season. Is treating you well.

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Speaker 1: I will be a week from today waking up in

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Speaker 1: Indianapolis in the Indianapolis Scouting Combine, and I am frenching

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Speaker 1: as much draft tape as I possibly can before then.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, no off I get people say, hey, you

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Speaker 1: must you know you're time to rest. Huh uh, It's

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Speaker 1: not July, so no, that's not how it works as No.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, I feel you you know for me, it

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Speaker 2: kind of starts a little bit in in the middle

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Speaker 2: and of may you know, you still have OTA's but

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Speaker 2: at least a draft is over. But you're right right now.

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Speaker 2: Last week I spent all week rewatching all the Senior

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Speaker 2: Bowl practice tape, just trying to, you know, make sure

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Speaker 2: what I saw in person and mobile was was real,

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Speaker 2: because you know, you go watch these practices live. It's

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Speaker 2: the same thing with watching games, right, Doug. If you

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Speaker 2: don't rewatch it and take your time and actually look

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Speaker 2: at everything, Oh yeah, it's it's sometimes bad information, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. On you know, what you see

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Speaker 2: on first glance.

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Speaker 1: You can get yourself in a lot of trouble those

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Speaker 1: evaluations if you're not watching it over. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: will I do a podcast with Great Cosell, who I

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Speaker 1: know you know every week and you know, Greg, we

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Speaker 1: will sit there and you know, tape guys do this.

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Speaker 1: We will sit there and watch it play fifteen times, like, well,

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Speaker 1: what was he?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: What's the indicator there? Like, you know Patrick Mahomes's long

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Speaker 1: pass to Nicole Hardin where Tayshaun Gibson was looking back,

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Speaker 1: Why are you doing that? I'm like, what was the indicator?

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Speaker 1: Are that final completion to Kelsey in regulation set them

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Speaker 1: up to tie it at nineteen. They ran mesh and

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Speaker 1: they somehow perceived that the four nineers were going to

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Speaker 1: run man coverage, which they almost never knew in that situation.

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Speaker 1: So you'll sit there and watch something fifteen times and

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Speaker 1: if you're not as you said, if you're not doing that,

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Speaker 1: there are gonna be some holes in your emails, which

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Speaker 1: is not good.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And by the way, we will have Greeco solon

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Speaker 2: at during our combine shows next week, and make sure

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Speaker 2: you stop buying our table at radio Road, Doug. We'd

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Speaker 2: love to hang out at least meet you in person,

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Speaker 2: say hi, and you can check them out on the

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Speaker 2: X's and O's podcast with great coo.

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Speaker 1: So that's the By the way, I've done break about

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Speaker 1: fifteen years. No one has taught me more about football.

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Speaker 1: He is he is the man for all us heye, guys,

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Speaker 1: he is Don Corleone. He's you know, that's the ring

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Speaker 1: of kiss because he's earned it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he is phenomenal, does a great job. So definitely

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Speaker 2: check out their podcast, guys if you have the time

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Speaker 2: to get deep into the X's and zero. So let's

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Speaker 2: about there. Doug. You can either take the Super Bowl

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Speaker 2: specifically or the NFL season as a whole. What lessons

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Speaker 2: did you learn from a schematic perspective over the course

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Speaker 2: of this season that you think is very informative to

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Speaker 2: how she kind of build and design what they're trying

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Speaker 2: to do moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think and the Chiefs prove this, and it's

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Speaker 1: something that the Giants may or may not be looking at.

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Speaker 1: Is that the myth of the number one receiver, it's

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Speaker 1: really more about volume these days, and it is about

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Speaker 1: having a tier of here's your number one guy, here's

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Speaker 1: your number two guy, and all that. There's so much

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Speaker 1: more quick game now, it's so much more you know,

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Speaker 1: hit your back foot at three steps, hit your back

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Speaker 1: foot at five steps, get the ball out, get the

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Speaker 1: ball out. It's really and when we say distributor like

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Speaker 1: a point guard, it sounds it really Isn't you want

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Speaker 1: a guy who can run that whole offense, you know,

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Speaker 1: from from short to intermediate to deep. Conversely, and Spags

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Speaker 1: does this. You know, obviously he was a Giant with

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Speaker 1: the Giants for a long time. He runs it's blitz,

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Speaker 1: but it's also press coverage. It's getting tight in those guys,

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Speaker 1: and when we talk about the Giants, we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: a pretty radical shift in philosophy from Wink to Chain Bawn.

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Speaker 1: It's it's big. It's like, wow, you guys are gonna

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Speaker 1: have to do everything really really. But like Deontay Banks,

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Speaker 1: when I was doing my corners last year for draft,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, I kind of kept projecting him to

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Speaker 1: the Giants because of Wink and because Banks was the

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Speaker 1: best press man corner in this class. And I think

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Speaker 1: that showed up on his NFL tape too. So really,

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Speaker 1: two things I've seen are more quick games. So part

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Speaker 1: of the reason you're in quick game is because you

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Speaker 1: don't want those pass rushers from all different gaps and

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Speaker 1: stunts and blitzer is and whatever. You don't want them

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Speaker 1: to get into your quarterback. So if you can't get

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Speaker 1: to the quarterback, you can, you know, you can deflect

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Speaker 1: the ball, or you can at least, you know, pressure

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Speaker 1: him or hurry him or get him off his spot.

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Speaker 1: But how are you when you disrupt the quarterback? If

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Speaker 1: you can't get to him, you disrupt the receivers, You

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Speaker 1: affect the timing of the route. So that's one thing.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I've seen is and this it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: common conversation, so much more for most teams, not the

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Speaker 1: Giants last year, although I think they'll be doing it

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Speaker 1: more this year with Bowen a lot more. Too high.

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Speaker 1: That's become the thing the country cover three that we

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Speaker 1: were used to with the you know, Tony Dungews Bucks

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Speaker 1: and the Legion of Boom Seahawks. I mean, you can

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Speaker 1: couple teams run their defenses with with middle of the

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Speaker 1: field closed, but it really is more about too high

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Speaker 1: and more. It's I see it more and more every

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Speaker 1: season over the last three three to five years. It's

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Speaker 1: disguising coverage. It's well, we look like you're in one,

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Speaker 1: but we're actually in two. We're going to move this

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Speaker 1: guy back. We look like we're playing off. No, we're

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Speaker 1: playing robber. I think the most dramatic thing I've seen

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Speaker 1: over the last couple of seasons, it's the seasons, is

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Speaker 1: the number of coverage switches, like here's here's what it is, presnet,

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Speaker 1: here's what it is post now. That's another way to

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Speaker 1: disrupt the quarterback without getting to him.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm with you one hundred percent, and I think

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Speaker 2: what you've seen from teams, it's very important to play

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Speaker 2: too high safeties right on early downs. I think you

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Speaker 2: have to because if you play too much man on

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Speaker 2: early downs, you can give a big plays over the top.

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Speaker 2: Teams to run that play action, you can max protect

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Speaker 2: even you get those guys deep over the top against

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Speaker 2: single high and you can make those big plays. And

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Speaker 2: I think watching Shane Bowen and why don't we talk

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Speaker 2: about it now? Yeah, he keep that's his framework, right,

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Speaker 2: He's gonna start too high and he will turn the

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Speaker 2: skies and shift into different things off of that too

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Speaker 2: high coverage. Right, So as the Giants shot now build

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Speaker 2: out this defense, you have some building blocks Keevon Thibadeau,

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Speaker 2: Dexter Lawrence up front, Bobby Okhacane the middle linebacker, Deonte

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Speaker 2: Banks at corner. What are the other pieces we'll see

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Speaker 2: about Zavier McKinney, he's a free agent. What type of

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Speaker 2: pieces do you think they need to build out on

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Speaker 2: this defense in order to run that Bowen system successfully?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And McKinney had a really good year, Like wow,

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Speaker 1: he really popped off the tape well last year. Only

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Speaker 1: the Vikings at a higher BLITZERREA than the Giants forty

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Speaker 1: five point four percent. No, surprise there, it's Wink Bowens.

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Speaker 1: Titans had a blizerate of twenty two percent. Winkerlie heavily

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Speaker 1: on single high coverage, especially Cover one. Titans were a

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Speaker 1: big too high defense under Bowen. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of changes coming and it'll be interesting to see which

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Speaker 1: players Bowen sees as his guys and what should be

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Speaker 1: a radically different defense overall. Now, Bowen's a smart guy.

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Speaker 1: He's not gonna come in okay, We're just you know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna play too high zone and I don't care

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Speaker 1: that nobody's good at that. He's going to adapt to

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Speaker 1: his personnel. But you know, they do have pieces. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Dexter Lawrence is the best nose tackleaving in NFL by

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Speaker 1: a brushing market. He is one of one, and he

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Speaker 1: can also go all over the line. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: McKinney coming free agent, had a great season.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: The Isaiah Simmons making him more of an edge rusher

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Speaker 1: shows you how much they needed another edge. They need

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Speaker 1: a bookend for Thibodeau that can play at that level.

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Speaker 1: I think their secondary, you know, Banks, I think is great.

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Speaker 1: Darnay Holmes and Pinnock were underrated in coverage. Okaycas are

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Speaker 1: a really good player. So they've got some good pieces.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe definitely another edge rusher. The Leonard Williams

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Speaker 1: trade points to a need for maybe somebody not so

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Speaker 1: much inside but inside outside. I mean.

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Simmons role well, I mean sort of, although Williams

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Speaker 3: was more like he would flip from end to tackle,

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Speaker 3: whereas Simmons is more edge to off ball.

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Speaker 1: They need a guy who can you know. I would

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Speaker 1: say they need edge and they need a sort of

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Speaker 1: do it all guy on the line that would help.

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Speaker 1: But I would say they need at least one reinforcement

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Speaker 1: on the defensive line. I think they need probably another

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Speaker 1: linebacker if they moves McKinney. They need no safety because

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a two safety team for sure.

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Speaker 1: But they have good pieces. I mean, you know, they've

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Speaker 1: got four or five really good players that you can

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Speaker 1: build any defense around. It's just a matter of what

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Speaker 1: will they be doing and how will they be doing it?

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Speaker 1: And at this point we don't know. It's hard to go.

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Speaker 1: It was like when ed Don. The Vikings were from

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Speaker 1: ed Don until the Brian Floores and everything just completely changed.

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Speaker 1: Took a while. It does I mean, you're asking these

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Speaker 1: guys to do different things than they were. It's more

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Speaker 1: stunt heavy than blitz heavy, and there will be those

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Speaker 1: switched coverages. You know, with the practice rules you have

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Speaker 1: and what you're allowed to do and not do in practice,

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Speaker 1: it just takes a while. A lot of times those

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Speaker 1: early games in the regular season are practice games. So

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Speaker 1: that's what it turns out to be. So I will

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Speaker 1: be really interested to see how that defense looks over time.

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Speaker 2: No, I agree, and I apologize for and throughout that.

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Speaker 2: I meant that Jeffrey Simmons role, not the Isaiah Simmons

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Speaker 2: role in the defensive line that kind of three times.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no, Jeffrey. Yeah, I think that's Lawrence. I think

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Speaker 1: that's Lawrence because he is the best nose in football.

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Speaker 1: But for a guy weighs what three forty, you can

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Speaker 1: play he can. He can burn you out at the

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Speaker 1: edge and he will. I mean I saw him chase

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Speaker 1: mobile quarterbacks all the way to the sideline, like you

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Speaker 1: cannot be that big and be that fast. He's what

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Speaker 1: I loved him coming out of college and he's just

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite players. When I turn on the

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Speaker 1: tape on a Monday morning, I'm like, yeah, I want

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Speaker 1: to watch him. He's one of those.

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Speaker 2: Guys no absolutely last thing. And I think is interesting

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Speaker 2: because Boone did not play his nose over the center

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Speaker 2: a lot last year with Tennessee. You know, they kind

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Speaker 2: of still use that y nine thing from when Jim

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Speaker 2: Schwartz was there. So I'm curious to see if he

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Speaker 2: adjust his fronts a little bit. So Lawrence plays over

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Speaker 2: the center war which he's done so successfully the last

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Speaker 2: two years, I'm curious to see if he makes that

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Speaker 2: type of front adjustment or not well.

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Speaker 1: And the titles were kind of a four on the

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Speaker 1: floor front. And another trend we've seen a lot more

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Speaker 1: is either diamond just five across or bearfronts where at

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Speaker 1: the barefront. And I got into this in my book.

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Speaker 1: You're creating, you're trying to create single teams. Those tackles

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Speaker 1: head over the center. The ends in this case are

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Speaker 1: to either the outside shoulder either guard, so you're just

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Speaker 1: you're creating those one on ones. And then the outside

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Speaker 1: linebacker in this case can do whatever. But maybe you'll

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Speaker 1: run more five man French and they can run Lawrence.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Lawrence can line up anywhere and just kick

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Speaker 1: your butt. He's that good.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely last thing on the defense grammatically, and then

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Speaker 2: we'll jump over to the offensive side of the ball here. Doug.

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Speaker 2: You know you mentioned playing man to man. I do

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Speaker 2: think on third downs is essential to be able to

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Speaker 2: play man to man, you know, properly right, Otherwise you

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Speaker 2: haven't got a quarterback at Patrick Maholmes, especially guys that

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Speaker 2: can create time back there and scramble, create space. Guy's

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Speaker 2: gonna find an empty hole on his own. You're gonna

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Speaker 2: be able to, you know, get those first downs. Is

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Speaker 2: just the way the league works now. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's interesting the importance of those mixing up coverages, right,

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Speaker 2: because if you play man and everything tear down, you're

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Speaker 2: gonna get those bunches. You're gonna get the stacks, you're

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Speaker 2: gonna run picks, you're gonna free guys up. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna do all that sorts of stuff. So I

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Speaker 2: to your point, disguising and mixing coverages up, but being

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Speaker 2: able to play man, I think in those critical third downs,

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Speaker 2: which is what the Chiefs did against the Niners, and

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Speaker 2: no other team really to get it did against the Niners,

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Speaker 2: even Dallas, who plays as much man as anyone. They

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Speaker 2: played a ton of zone against the Niners earlier in

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Speaker 2: the year, Right, It's just so important to be successful

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Speaker 2: in those critical situations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I got to talk to Eli Manning

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Speaker 1: for about fifteen minutes at an event during Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: week in Vegas, and we spent about half the time

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Speaker 1: talking about spags as plan in Super Bowl forty two,

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Speaker 1: just what he did. And Eli brought up some things

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Speaker 1: that even I hadn't thought about, because you know, he's

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Speaker 1: obviously very smart. And he said, you know, he did

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Speaker 1: everything you're not supposed to do and he got away

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Speaker 1: with it. And it's interesting to me, and I had

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Speaker 1: brought this up in various podcasts and articles that the

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Speaker 1: Chiefs and Niners neither one of them have a coverage type.

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Speaker 1: They don't really do one thing. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: another you know, as we talk about trends in the

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Speaker 1: NFL today, if you're stuck in one coverage, you're dead.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't work anymore. And it's you know that, I

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Speaker 1: think it's the reason that teams are there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more cover four quarters, which is what it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: It's it's each defensive back has responsibility for one quarter

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Speaker 1: of the field. But that's that's a defense where it's

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Speaker 1: easier to match receivers through routes and you're not just

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Speaker 1: playing because like landmark zone that just sitting there in

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Speaker 1: the zone that you really can't do that, but you know,

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Speaker 1: just matching your receivers across pattern matching. I've been a

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Speaker 1: big advocate. I did a three part article on match

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Speaker 1: covers like five years ago, you know, so to say

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Speaker 1: that it as you said, perfectly, you can't be a

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Speaker 1: word We do this because it's like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Browns were single high, man aggressive and all that, and

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Speaker 1: they wound up getting burned with it because you just

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Speaker 1: you can't keep doing the one thing and you hit

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Speaker 1: a quarterback like CJ Stroud in the playoffs who rips

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Speaker 1: that stuff to shreds. CJ against single high last year

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Speaker 1: was through more nuclear So why don't you change they

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Speaker 1: They didn't, I mean over and over and over in

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Speaker 1: that game. And Jimischwartz is a great defense. No one's

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Speaker 1: arguing that. But like no disguise coverage, you're just single high,

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Speaker 1: single high, single high all the time. What are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You can't do that anymore. You have to mix it

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Speaker 1: up because the offenses are mixing it up so much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Carl Banks is a huge advocate of pattern matching.

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Speaker 2: Obviously he got trained by Bill Belichick. Not a surprise, right,

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Speaker 2: So you're in zone, but you actually pick up a

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Speaker 2: receiver in your zone then just basically a zone, but

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Speaker 2: you're playing man in that zone. Coverage as opposed to

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Speaker 2: the stems is when it, yeah, the route, it's like

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Speaker 2: the route comes out its zone and then right when

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Speaker 2: it you know.

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Speaker 1: The receiver goes this way, you got to switch release

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Speaker 1: or you know you're running flood. A big thing now

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Speaker 1: also is for strong where you're on the flood to

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Speaker 1: one side and the running back comes out. The Chiefs

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Speaker 1: just murdered. They just got him over and over with

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Speaker 1: that four strong stuff. And that's becoming a thing where

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Speaker 1: you just flood one side of the field and if

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Speaker 1: you're playing zone, you don't have enough people to match

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Speaker 1: up to that. You have to bring people over and

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Speaker 1: then you can hit the ISO the backside io on

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Speaker 1: a four strong because all of a sudden, that guy

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Speaker 1: is just you know, it's it's zero man to that

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Speaker 1: side and there's not much you can do, so you

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Speaker 1: have to mix things up. On defense because offenses are

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Speaker 1: just looking over welm you with personnel and angles and numbers.

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Speaker 1: It becomes this. Or Mike Smith, who used to be

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Speaker 1: the Falcons head coach, like I don't know twelve combines

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Speaker 1: ago told me this is it's going to become more

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Speaker 1: of a matchup league than a pure scheme league. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's played perfectly out the way he said it.

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Speaker 2: But the Jimmies and Joe is not the x's and o's.

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Speaker 2: I think fans think about you know that the you

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Speaker 2: know your your classic playing area, spot job zone, and

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Speaker 2: that's just not really what NFL team no, no much anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've talked to you guys about that and said

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Speaker 1: that country cover three, we don't do that anymore because

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Speaker 1: we know better.

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Speaker 2: I can't know about that anymore.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, you love turf, You're good at it, So you

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Speaker 4: start a turf biz business grows, your savings grow, become

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Speaker 4: the most celebrated name in turf. Are you ready for

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Speaker 4: all that life brings?

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Speaker 2: John Total Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the

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Speaker 2: official bank of the Giants from game data. Everyday, Citizens

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Speaker 2: is made ready for Giant fans with insids, guidance and

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Speaker 2: solutions learn more citizens Bank dot Com. Unless the offense here, Doug,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned it, you know, with the Chiefs, the lack

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Speaker 2: of the number one wide receiver. I would say that

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Speaker 2: is mitigated by the presidence of Patrick Mahomes, who is

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Speaker 2: probably the best quarterback I've ever seen, which helps, you know.

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Speaker 2: I went back. I looked at the last twenty one

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Speaker 2: Super Bowls just for this conversation. I'm happy you brought

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Speaker 2: this up, so I think it kind of speaks to

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about here. Last twenty one Super Bowls

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Speaker 2: six or one by Tom Brady, three or one by Mahomes,

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Speaker 2: four or one by guys named Manning, one by Roethlisberger,

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Speaker 2: one by Breeze, one by Rogers, one by Stafford, one

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Speaker 2: by Russell Wilson, all Hall of famers. More likely than not,

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Speaker 2: I would say probably, we'll see about Russ right, and

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Speaker 2: then you have the the the like Nick Foles and

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Speaker 2: Joe Flacco. You know, Okay, this was weird, but it

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Speaker 2: happened games. Yeah, how much is team building now? Just

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Speaker 2: we need to find a guy that can play at

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Speaker 2: a top five quarterback level for some extended period of time.

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Speaker 2: And that's the only way you can really win a

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Speaker 2: Super Bowl these days.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you look at teams who won the Super

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Speaker 1: Bowl in the New millennium, how many teams were going

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Speaker 1: to do that with quarterback play that was subpar two

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Speaker 1: thousand Ravens two thousand and two, Buccaneers, Ben did not

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Speaker 1: play well in Super Bowl forty at the end of

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Speaker 1: the twenty two thousand and five season. And the Broncos

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Speaker 1: when they won fifty over the Panthers. I mean that

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Speaker 1: was Peyton manning, but you know it was at the

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Speaker 1: end it was not optimal Peyton, and you have those

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Speaker 1: injuries and all that. So that's that's four teams in

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Speaker 1: almost twenty five years where you win a Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: with subpar quarterback play. Well, three of those teams, the Ravens,

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Speaker 1: the Bucks and the fifteen Broncos had like all time defenses,

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Speaker 1: and with the Steelers they had, you know, one of

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Speaker 1: those great defenses as well. It's so much to ask

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Speaker 1: that your quarterback. It disproportionately affects the rest of your team.

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Speaker 1: If your quarterback isn't one of those guys, it's it's

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Speaker 1: just so much harder because everything else has to be

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Speaker 1: perfect and there is no wiggle room. There is no

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Speaker 1: margin for error because your quarterback is kind of h

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Speaker 1: we don't know, we don't know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: That's really not gonna work. So team building it. It's

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Speaker 1: quarterback number one.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, so as you build

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Speaker 2: around this and look, assuming with with Daniel's contract, right,

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Speaker 2: he's going to be here next year in one way,

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Speaker 2: shape or form, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't. They don't have any relief dead money

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Speaker 1: wise until twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: It's what you don't want obviously, And you mentioned Russ

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Speaker 1: the Russell Wilson situation where the only way, the only

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Speaker 1: reason you're on the team is because your dead tap

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Speaker 1: hit is more than your live cap hit, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of where they're you know, le Broncos are. You

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Speaker 1: don't want that situation. You'd obviously like him to improve.

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Speaker 1: You know, obviously we don't know what the Giants draft

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Speaker 1: plan is. Most people are mocking a new quarterback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah again from available too, right, you just don't know

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Speaker 2: who's going to be there at six, right, And I

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Speaker 2: think then this is the part of the team that

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Speaker 2: I'll ask you about now. You know, you take a

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Speaker 2: look at the best quarterbacks in the league, and the

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Speaker 2: guys that win these Super Bowls predominantly. And there are

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Speaker 2: exceptions to the rule first round, top ten type picks,

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Speaker 2: right like there are you know Lamar was in the

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Speaker 2: first round guy. You know, Dak Prescott's of you know,

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Speaker 2: day two, Day three guy. Actually, so there are some

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Speaker 2: guys that that break the mold. Are you a fan

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Speaker 2: of what the Packers used to do and what a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know, the Niners did back in the

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Speaker 2: day where you just keep drafting quarterbacks, you keep throwing

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Speaker 2: darts even if it's day two, day three guys, and

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Speaker 2: hope you eventually find something if you're not in the

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Speaker 2: position to use a premium pick on a quarterback, and

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Speaker 2: maybe the Giants will be who knows wolf to wait

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Speaker 2: and see about that, right, But you know what, what's

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Speaker 2: your take on how you try to find that quarterback

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Speaker 2: if you don't have them, which is really one of

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Speaker 2: the toughest things to do in all sports.

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Speaker 1: I think your backup quarterback is I mean, you guys

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Speaker 1: found this out last year with Tyron Taylor. Your backup

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Speaker 1: quarterback is one of your most important players. I'm in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: so I was here when Russ was still the quarterback

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Speaker 1: and they would bring Geno Smith in and then release

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Speaker 1: him and bring him back and release him, and bring

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Speaker 1: him back and release him. Russ had that injury his

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Speaker 1: last year Seattle and Gino came in and played really well,

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Speaker 1: and I kept them afloat. And then when Russ left

430
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: that one of the reasons they made that huge trade

431
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: the Seahawks do was because in Gino, I think we

432
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: got something here. So yeah, I am a fan of that.

433
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,640
Speaker 1: I don't you know, you put all your a lot

434
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 1: of your eggs in that positional basket, but you can't

435
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 1: put it all on one guy because you know, Andy Reid,

436
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 1: by the way, going back to his days of the Eagles,

437
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 1: has been brilliant at taking guys who were, you know, okay,

438
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: like league average or league below average, maximizing their strengths

439
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: and they would go out there for three or four games.

440
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: I mean, Kevin kaalb got that sixty million dollars contract

441
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: from the Cardinals because of what Andy set him up

442
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: to do. So yeah, you have to have you have

443
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 1: to have a good backup quarterback. That's one of your

444
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: most important guys. So yeah, I am a fan of that.

445
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 2: All right again, folks, there's that I bring that up.

446
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 2: You know, Joe Shane has said that the need to

447
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 2: add to the quarterback room this offseason. See how they

448
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: do it, whether it's a veteran fre agency to Doug's

449
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: point in the draft, see how they handle it. But

450
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, Daniel Jones is gonna be here and he's

451
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: likely going to be the starter in Week one if

452
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 2: he's healthy. So just something to keep an eye on

453
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: as you move forward. I want to touch on one

454
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 2: more quarterback thing, Doug before we jump to the book

455
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: and some historical stuff which I really enjoyed you put.

456
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 2: I know you're going through the college shape. I'm doing

457
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 2: the same thing. I haven't gotten to that second tier

458
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: quarterbacks with With Pennix McCarthy, I've watched him on TV

459
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 2: a lot. I haven't watched the actual tape yet, but

460
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: I did watch every snap of the top three of Williams,

461
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: May and Daniels. I saw you had two little quick

462
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: scatting reports up on Daniels in May, and I think

463
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: it's just.

464
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to say I've watched like two or

465
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: three games. I like to watch five or six, so

466
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: I'm not done. But I mean, Pennix, I'm from Seattle,

467
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 1: so I've done that tape, Williams. I need to catch

468
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 1: up on May and McCarthy and Jayden Daniels. I'm pretty

469
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: I'm pretty much there.

470
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 2: Okay, So I think May, Daniels, and McCarthy are the

471
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: three guys will touch on then, right. I think depending

472
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 2: on who you talk to, some people like Daniels better

473
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 2: than May. Some people like May better than Daniels. And

474
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 2: that's kind of a flip flop situation. I personally have

475
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: May in front of Daniels. I'll I'll give you my reasoning.

476
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm curious to get your take on it. What I

477
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: think May's running ability is underrated. I think he's a

478
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 2: much better more than other people give him credit for.

479
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: Oh no, he's the runner.

480
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I think Jansen Daniels, you know, he's

481
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 2: special in that regard in terms of big plays, right,

482
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 2: Daniel's I think more accurate downfield thrower. You mentioned the

483
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: slot phades, the neighbors. It's all over the tape. It's everywhere. Neighbors,

484
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: slot fade, it's everywhere.

485
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: But I'll just break in passes of twenty more area rds.

486
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: Last season, he had twenty two touchdowns and no interceptions.

487
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: That's not bad in the SCA And this wasn't like

488
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: Division III football. This is in the SEC. That's that

489
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. Correct.

490
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: I will say this though, and this is why I

491
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: think I have May a little bit ahead of him.

492
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 2: I think in the NFL, now, Doug, you have to

493
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: be able to complete passes in the intermediate, crowded areas

494
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: in the middle of the field, and Drake May's tape

495
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: is littered with that. Now there's some bad throws in

496
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 2: those areas too, but you watched the Georgia Tech Tree

497
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 2: for example, Like there's just like throwing people open middle

498
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: of the field, small areas, bang bang, zip zip zip.

499
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: And I love the way that from college to pros

500
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 2: can convert a little bit. And I do think Daniels

501
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: was a lot of open players on the perimeter, not

502
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: as much crowded stuff in the middle. And you brought

503
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: this up in your little tweet too. I was surprised

504
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: how many of the easy, simple throws that Jane and

505
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 2: Daniels just misses that's like five yards down the field,

506
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: and that's something that I'm like, how are you so

507
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: accurate deep? But then those those easy short passes you're

508
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: you're missing them a little bit.

509
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: Now.

510
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 2: I think all three guys are top ten worthy, including

511
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: Caleb Williams. I think that's great, But to me, that's

512
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: kind of what differentiates the two guys for me a

513
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: little bit.

514
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have more of an issue. I would put

515
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: Daniels above May, and I'm struggling not to put Daniels

516
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: as my top quarterback overall who I like it. I

517
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: need to watch more Williams before I make that definitive statement.

518
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: But and with Daniels, I got to watch tape with

519
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: him on Zoom the day before he won the Heisman,

520
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: so I had a little more insight into his process

521
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: and what he's thinking. I think, well, the problem with May,

522
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: I mean there are just two and I know his

523
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: offensive line was the greatest. I think the surrounding cast

524
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: was not great. And Daniels gets pillaried for well, you

525
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: have neighbors and all these other guys, well, he also

526
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: made them better. May misses a lot of stuff in

527
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: the I would say eight to fifteen yeard area, I

528
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: mean wildly bad throws.

529
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: The scatter shot in the middle of the field, You're right.

530
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: And that was that was on tape last year, and

531
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: the red zone numbers are really not good. I like May.

532
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: I think he I would probably give him an early

533
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: second round grade. Daniels, I would say mid to high

534
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: first round McCarthy, who I also like. I think there's

535
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: a lot of Kirk Cousins there. Better runner than people think,

536
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: much better deep throw than people think.

537
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 5: I think with Daniels, right in your opinion, Day two guy,

538
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 5: I would give him a mid second round grade. With quarterbacks,

539
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 5: that could you know if if you think he is

540
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 5: a mid second rounder and he's a quarterback, he goes

541
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 5: in the mid first round because you have to bump

542
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 5: it up a whole round.

543
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: As we know with Daniels that that intermediate stuff, and

544
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: I agree on that there he'll put an extra hitch

545
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: when he's on sure of coverage, and all of these guys,

546
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: when they get to the NFL, the coverage switches we discussed,

547
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: quarterback prospects now have to deal with far more of

548
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: that than any in the past. So that's a thing,

549
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: and it's going to be a thing for all these guys,

550
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: and it's it's why I like CJ. Stroud. You're not

551
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: a rookie. This is some kind of like sleight of

552
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: hand where he's actually been in the NFL for five

553
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: years and he got plastic surgery, and like, okay, you

554
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: were this other guy. What Stroud is able to do

555
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: is so remarkable. But I think with Daniels it's it's

556
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: just because, yeah, he threw to some wide open guys,

557
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: but those those fades, man, those deep balls, and it

558
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: wasn't just fades. It was all over the field. I

559
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: mean there were touchdowns fade touchdowns where it was, you know,

560
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: hormabacks right behind this guy and he just throws it here.

561
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: So he's got that, he's got that location. Tremendous runner.

562
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: Very few top tier draft prospect quarterbacks can say this.

563
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: He completed over seventy percent of his passes last season,

564
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: and he averaged eleven point five yards per attempt. And

565
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: going back to when I was scouting Robert Griffin in

566
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, Griffin had that over seventy percent over ten

567
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: yards per attempt. If I see those two things together

568
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: in a high conference player, I'm like, Okay, this sets

569
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: you apart, this makes you different. So the more I've

570
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: watched Daniels over the last few months, the more I'm like,

571
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: and I need to go back and watch Keileb Williams

572
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: Moore before I make this statement, but if I come

573
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: out of this thinking here's my QB one, that wouldn't

574
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: really surprise me, all.

575
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 2: Right, Doug, And then I want to jump to history stuff. Okay, yeah, one,

576
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: you said you watch a lot of pen curious your

577
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: take on him if you take the medicals out of it,

578
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: because we don't know what.

579
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: The medicals are. Huge. I think without the medicals. Yeah,

580
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: I think without the medicals, he's a mid first round guy.

581
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, I think that would not surprised me.

582
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think early second, late first, and

583
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: I think you'll get picked somewhere in the middle of

584
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: the first year point everyone gets elevated up right.

585
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: By the way, the only reason Pennix isn't the best

586
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: deep fade thrower in this class is because Jaden Daniels is.

587
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: But he also does that tremendously well. Very smart player.

588
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: The Michigan game revealed some things that I want to

589
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: go back and look at a little bit more. But yeah,

590
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: great player. I mean my conframe is actually Geno Smith.

591
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that great down field thrower. Great great.

592
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: Him and Daniels are both awesome downfield throwers if you

593
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: want to.

594
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 1: You know, the medicals could put him in the fourth round.

595
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: The medicals could make him undraftable, The medicals could put

596
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: him mid first. You know, that's he's It's rare that

597
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: a prospect is this dependent on that, but he certainly is.

598
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: But then we'll get the historical stuff. It just shows

599
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: you how hard it is to scout these quarterbacks, right Like,

600
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: I watched a ton of CJ. Stratton College last year

601
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: and in that Ohio State offense until you got to

602
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: the National championship game against Georgia, when he did some

603
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: of that, you know, some of the off schedule stuff

604
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: you liked. There was no reason to think he was

605
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: gonna be this advanced that early if you watched him

606
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 2: play at Ohio State all year round, with the way

607
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 2: he played in that offense. And it just shows you.

608
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: We can watch all the tape you want, These evaluators

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: can talk to all the people that they want, and

610
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 2: so you see the quarterback in your situation, you have

611
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: no freaking idea how good this guy or banned this

612
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: guy's gonna be.

613
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's as much as any position in any sport.

614
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: It's I would say with quarterbacks, it's ninety percent above

615
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: the neck. Yeah, and you can you can, you know,

616
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: you can get a lot off tape how a guy processes,

617
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: Oh he saw this and he did that, or he didn't,

618
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: or you know, when this guy gets to the NFL,

619
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: he's just gonna have no clue. You can, you can

620
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: extrapolate a lot from tape, but really unless you're sitting

621
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: down with the guy and you have him on the

622
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: whiteboard and bring him in for a team visit and see, okay, okay,

623
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: he gets it and Stroud that was a rare thing.

624
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen. The last guy saw who had that

625
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: much on the ball was Andrew Luck in twenty twelve,

626
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: when Bruce Arians threw a seven hundred page play with

627
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: credit Luck's head, and Luck went, oh, okay, we can

628
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: do that. But that, you know, that happens every decade

629
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: or so. So it's tough. It's because so much of

630
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: it is you know what's going on between the ears,

631
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: and you don't know that from day I mean, you

632
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: can get an idea, but you don't really know, right.

633
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: And quarterbacks are so impacted by the surroundings too. What

634
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: you're asking them to do. That that's going to impact

635
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: that entire evaluation on with you.

636
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: Oh, that's your things. Troud was without you know, one

637
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: to three of his top three receivers for the season. Yeah,

638
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: you'd injury. I mean the guy just did everything you

639
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: could possibly want. It was ridiculous.

640
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 4: You're ready for a change. Pay Day comes early with

641
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 4: citizens So go to that retreat. Knew you move to

642
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 4: the country. Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand.

643
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 4: Are you ready for all that life brings?

644
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: Giant fans love a winner. It's why they love Citizens Day.

645
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Speaker 2: The twenty twenty two best bank in the US by

646
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: the Banker as the official bank of the Giants and

647
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: sponsor of the Huddle, citizens is made ready for Giant

648
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: fans and fans of Big Blue. Learn more at citizens

649
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: bank dot com. All right, Doug, so, I read this

650
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: book over the summers on my projects. It's called The

651
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: Genius of Desperation, The Innovation the schematic innovations that made

652
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: the modern NFL. It's an awesome book for the fans

653
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: that want to learn more about scheme. I really suggest

654
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: you go to Amazon. You go check it out, you

655
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: buy it. It's terrific and I want to get to

656
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: how it affects the modern NFL. Here, Doug, But first,

657
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: I've learned a lot about stuff in the past I

658
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: didn't know, Like I didn't know who said Gilman was

659
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: and what a big innovator he was in the NFL,

660
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: and that's the name I think a lot of fans

661
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: don't know. You know, I knew. I didn't realize how

662
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: close Bill Walsh was to Paul Brown and how tight

663
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: that connection was and why he didn't end up doing

664
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: what he did in Cincinnati that he did in San Francisco. Right, So,

665
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: just talk about some of the historical nuggets in there

666
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: that you think fans might find interesting, that that they

667
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: probably don't know about.

668
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: I think the most interesting guy to write about in

669
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: that book was Clark Shaughnessy, who George Hallis hired as

670
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: a consultant in the thirties for two thousand a month,

671
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: which in the thirties that was a big money. He

672
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: brought different iterations of the wing tea, which was the

673
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: primary offensive concept at the time, to the point where

674
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: the Bears beat the Redskins seventy three to nothing in

675
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: the nineteen forty and the NFL championship. He did so

676
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: many developments on defense. He brought the middle guarden, just

677
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: got the shotgun, and you know, just throughout his life

678
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: he was such an innovator and most people don't even

679
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: know who he is, so a lot of it was

680
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: unearthing stories like that. Yeah, Sid Gilman was a rams

681
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: Head coach for a bit in the late fifties, really

682
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: came of age in the AFL the Chargers throughout the sixties.

683
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: And I'm not the first person to say this, normally

684
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: be the last the modern passing game. The floods we

685
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, the distribution and you know

686
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: receiver location and all that. It's a big Greg co

687
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: cell term which he'll he'll probably give you at the combine.

688
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: They're the modern passing game. There's the passing game before,

689
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: Sid Gilman passing game after, the passing game after is

690
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: the modern passing game. And that was true for Sid

691
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: and all his acolytes. Certainly Don Coriel had a lot

692
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: of that three digit Sid stuff, and even today Bruce

693
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: arians was a big Sid Goman guy. A lot of

694
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: his concepts came from there. You know, you look at

695
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: what Andy Reid does, if you look Kyle Shanahan does,

696
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of that stuff there. So I had

697
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: read a book called Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson.

698
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: It was a great chronological schematic history of soccer going

699
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: back to like the late eighteen hundreds, and I thought, well, gosh,

700
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: there has to be a book like that about football

701
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: where you're taking you're going through history like how things

702
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: change and the genius desperation is offense comes up with this,

703
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: we have to come up with something to stop it.

704
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: And that goes back to you know, how you stop

705
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: the shotgun the you know, the forty six takes out

706
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: the pro set. You stopped the West Coast offense with

707
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: the zone blitz. So I looked around for a book

708
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: like that about American football and there wasn't one. So

709
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I guess I ought to write it.

710
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great book, and I.

711
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: Think you can write the book you read right, that's you.

712
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: Know, absolutely, and it's all cyclical, right, you go back now,

713
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: teams bring concepts back now that worked in the eighties,

714
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: and then yes, oh, why do you think we're going

715
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: back to too high stuff now? And guess what, soon

716
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: team's gonna start running the ball with more power and

717
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: gap scheme. Oh, you can have two safeties deep on

718
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: every play, but they're gonna run it on your line

719
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: backers they're too small. Then team's gonna have to adjust back.

720
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: The cyclical nature of this, how schemes re emerge and

721
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: then disappear and come back again as teams readjust these

722
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: You know there's eleven guys. You only do so much, right,

723
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: It's I just think it's fascinating.

724
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: Well, you see all these teams. I first noticed it

725
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: with the Pagetriot's about four years ago. I'm bills running bearfronts.

726
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen those since like the eighties, and now

727
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: all these teams are running bear friends. So yeah, that

728
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: this this stuff comes back, and you know it'll move

729
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: from three four to four three to three four to

730
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,479
Speaker 1: four three and now base defenses. That's another thing, nicol

731
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: is a new base base is four two five. When

732
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: I hear three four and four three, I'm like, hmm,

733
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: it's not really that, but yeah, it is cyclical. And

734
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do was the main story arc

735
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: was how how does this change that? How does this

736
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: affect that throughout history? That was really the mark I

737
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: wanted to hit it as far as because you know

738
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: Reg has his own book.

739
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: Uh.

740
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: You know, Pat Kerwin did a good book, really good book.

741
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: Tim Layden who was with that side, did you know?

742
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: So there are those scheme books out there obviously, uh,

743
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: Finding Winning Edge by mister Walsh's. But what I wanted

744
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: to do was bring that chronological this and that element

745
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: to it, like how do things change through time and

746
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: how do those things work sequentially?

747
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, and then wrap it up here we'll bring

748
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: it back to the present. And I think this is

749
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: why the Shanahan School guys have been so successful. If

750
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: you look at Sean mcvay's offense with Jared Goff and

751
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,919
Speaker 2: you compare it to with Matthew Stafford there, they don't

752
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: look a like at all. Like they're they're completely different.

753
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: You see how Kyle Shanahan has gone away from the

754
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: outside zone and now it's more gap scheme.

755
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: Right.

756
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: It's like these guys they haven't just stuck with what

757
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: they do. They've adjusted as they've gone and they've changed things.

758
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: I know. The big joke four years ago is that,

759
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: oh this guy met Sean McVay, I want to go

760
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: hire him as my head coach. You know. The funny

761
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: thing is it's kind of worked. All those guys got

762
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: hired those cycles. They're damn good at their good offensive coaches.

763
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: It's just the way they've been able to adjust and

764
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: not stay married to what they do, I think is

765
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: what has made that coaching tree successful.

766
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is true of Kyle. It's true of

767
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: Mike McDaniel who went to the Dolphins from and he

768
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: was Kyle's running game coordinator. Sean McVay, who had that

769
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: past with with pre stamp is another thing we see

770
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: so much more of now, and I think the rise

771
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: of pre snap motion the price rise of coverage switches

772
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: not a coincidence because now everyone's motioning pre snap covered switches.

773
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: When you think about it, that's defensive pre snap motion,

774
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: and you're whether you're reacting to what you see or

775
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: you're just trying to fool the quarterback. So yeah, to

776
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: go back to your original plant about how things are

777
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: different in the NFL, there's so much more that happens

778
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: before the snap, and that's why your quarterback has to

779
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: be a brilliant pre snap to post snap diagnosticition more

780
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: than arm talent, more than anticipation, more than anything. Right now,

781
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: I think that might be the most important quarterback attribute

782
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: of all of them is how can you see pre

783
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: snap and see post snap and how quickly that that

784
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: switch flips in your head. That might be the biggest thing.

785
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: And you wouldn't have said that even five years ago.

786
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's how the NFL is speeding

787
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: along schematically and how much everything has changed.

788
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: Let me do one quick on up here, Doug, real quick,

789
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: because we didn't talk about Dable and Mike Kafkin what

790
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: they do with the Giants offense players aside, How would

791
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: you classify their scheme? Because I do think it's a

792
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 2: very interesting mix of what Dabele had in Buffalo, which

793
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: is more static, more spread out. Then you have to

794
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: Kafka stuff, which I think is a little bit more

795
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 2: motion and more kind of bunchie stuff. How would you

796
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: classify what the Giants do from an offensive point standpoint

797
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: schematically with those two guys kind of combining what they

798
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: like to do from an offensive perspective.

799
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's well, Daveell is so good at man beaters,

800
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: he's so good at getting guys open, and Kapp is

801
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: good at that too. It's you know, and it's I

802
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen with saquon center. He's

803
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: a free agent. There's been you know, money stuff, if

804
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 1: they get a guy in the draft, if they signed

805
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: Swinter free agency. I think the run scheme is malleable.

806
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: I do think, as we touched on, they need a

807
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: little help really. I mean, Andrew Thomas is great, and

808
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 1: Evan Neil was turning it up before he got hurt.

809
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: I think, and I like Schmidt's as a I kind

810
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: of confident to Alex Mack when he came out of school. Uh,

811
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: they got to get a couple of guards because the

812
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: other thing is when you get that ball out, you're

813
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: not really running around, You're you're in the pocket. So

814
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: I think their run scheme is it's variable depending on

815
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: the back they have, the and the line they have.

816
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: And I think you're gonna see some changes on the

817
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: on that offensive line as well. So it's a it's

818
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: a downfield passing game. It's you know, you want a

819
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: mobile quarterback. I don't think Dabel would prefer a guy

820
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: who just sits there in the pocket. Obviously he didn't

821
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: have that in Josh Allen and Jones has been an

822
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: underrated athlete, so I you know, I think it's it's

823
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: play action based, it's boot based. There's some pre stat motion,

824
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: but really it's about and this is a Dabel construct

825
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: and he's really got it getting the guys open downfield,

826
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: you know, running those route concepts and switches and stacks

827
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: and whatever floods to get guys open, to make it

828
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: easier for the quarterback that you know, that's what you

829
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: want to do.

830
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: I've do I then we touched on a lot already

831
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: before we say goodbye. To tell the folks anything you

832
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: want them to know about what you're up to, what

833
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: you're doing, uh that they should go check out.

834
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: Thanks. Uh yeah. Over at touchdown wire dot USA today

835
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: dot com, we're doing all kinds of draft stuff, free

836
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: agency stuff and uh the genius Desperation, which you were

837
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: kind enough to mention. And maybe somebody I'll write another

838
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: book although that took a lot out of me. Might

839
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: be a while.

840
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: That's awesome, And of course to check out the x's

841
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: and those podcast with with with the Douglas rayco Cell

842
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: as well.

843
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely appreciate it.

844
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Doug, definitely when you're in com, when you're in

845
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: the we're on a radio row, right, you know, the

846
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: old the interviews and everything come by sale. All we'd

847
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: love to just you know, meet in person and say

848
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: what's up. Enjoy your trip, We'll see you out there,

849
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: and thanks for joining us on the Johnsontle Podcast, brought

850
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: to you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants.

851
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: I'm John Schmelt for Doug. We'll see you next time.