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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to

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Speaker 1: you absolutely free. But if you want ad free listening

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Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. And we are back. Well, I

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Speaker 1: say we, but it's just me, Mike. Now it's just me.

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Speaker 1: I'm alone in the office, all by myself, but I

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Speaker 1: see Dylan in front of me with headphones on, and

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Speaker 1: it's awkward. He's just filming me. Hey, Dylan, Mike is

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Speaker 1: at the beach, and I'm kind of jealous, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: He's in DestinE and I was supposed to go too,

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Speaker 1: but my schedule got all messed up and I had

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Speaker 1: like a million different obligations this weekend and next week,

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Speaker 1: and I'd much rather be at the beach like Mike.

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Speaker 1: But instead, I'm not so Mike. I'm pissed, but I'm

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Speaker 1: also happy for you, and I hope you get summerned.

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Speaker 1: I have a really, really exciting guest today. This person

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Speaker 1: is an absolute legend. He is one of the best,

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Speaker 1: most talented journalists. I think out there of all time.

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Speaker 1: His name is Neil Strauss. He's been a writer and

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Speaker 1: journalist for The Rolling Stone four years. This person has

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Speaker 1: gained access to some of the most exclusive people in

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Speaker 1: the world and written about them. And every time that

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Speaker 1: we have a conversation together, I feel like I learned

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Speaker 1: something new. He's a g He's somebody that I can

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Speaker 1: learn from and I constantly do. I first met Neil

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Speaker 1: a few years ago. We did a podcast together called

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Speaker 1: to Live and Die in la and if you haven't

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Speaker 1: listened to that, you definitely need to. It's an absolutely

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Speaker 1: compelling story, true crime story, and he's the real deal.

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Speaker 1: He is an investigative journalist who gets his hands dirty,

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Speaker 1: is on the ground making all the connections stuff that's

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Speaker 1: not easy to do. If you haven't listened to To Live

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Speaker 1: in dna A, you must. It's a must listen. Just

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Speaker 1: go binge it right now. He also has a new

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Speaker 1: podcast out with Tenderfoot that is just as good, if

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Speaker 1: not better. It's called to Die For and it's the

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Speaker 1: most bizarre story about sexpionage. I didn't even know what

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Speaker 1: that was when I first was pitched this idea. In

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Speaker 1: the spy world espionage, there's a thing. It's called sexpionage,

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Speaker 1: where essentially a person uses the idea of sex or

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Speaker 1: sex in general to gain access to people and get

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Speaker 1: information and trick them. He builds this relationship with this

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Speaker 1: woman and she tells her story and it's by far

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Speaker 1: one of the craziest things I think I've ever heard

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Speaker 1: in my life. That's also available now to Binge Go Binge,

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Speaker 1: to Live In, Die In LA, and to Die For.

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Speaker 1: I sat down with Neil to talk about his new show,

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Speaker 1: Talk about investigative journalism life, and I think that you'll

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Speaker 1: see what I'm talking about once you hear his interview today. So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado from Tenderfoot TV and Atlanta by myself,

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Speaker 1: here is your next guest, Neil Strauss.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just talking. We were just talking before

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Speaker 2: catching up. It's been a les since we saw each other,

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Speaker 2: and we were trying to like figure out how many

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Speaker 2: podcasts you're doing, and I think we got it down

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Speaker 2: to this is the weekly Yes podcast and then as

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Speaker 2: far as is that seasonal, There's Up and Vanished, High

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Speaker 2: Strange Radio Rental, YEP, Dead and Gone, and each of

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Speaker 2: those being like eight to fifteen episodes.

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Speaker 1: You're stressing me out. I'm stressed out. I was like,

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Speaker 1: for you, don't keep naming them. Yeah. Yeah, it's been

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Speaker 1: a logistical juggle here. Yeah, but so far, so good.

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Speaker 1: But at some point I'm gonna be like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's really up and vanish right now. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, taking a lot of my brain, right because

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Speaker 1: you know, doing a deep dive, long form narrative on

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Speaker 1: an unsolved crime is just about as tough as it gets,

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Speaker 1: I feel like.

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Speaker 2: And journalism, yeah, I mean the next podcast I'm doing

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Speaker 2: for which we haven't asked yet, but is literally like

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Speaker 2: it's been like a year of constant work, so it

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Speaker 2: takes me so long to do them.

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Speaker 1: Do you like the long part of it or are

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Speaker 1: you're just used to that or is that just the

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Speaker 1: way it has to happen?

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Speaker 2: The answer is I feel like the long. If you're

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Speaker 2: going to do something that's compose more documentary style, I

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Speaker 2: feel like then taking your time to really really craft

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Speaker 2: it so it's something you're just proud of forever, or

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Speaker 2: feel accomplished the job you wanted to accomplish in the

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Speaker 2: best way possible.

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Speaker 1: It's important where you feel like you did it, though, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like it was perfect when you put

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Speaker 1: it out, or do you or do you not look

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Speaker 1: at it that way?

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Speaker 2: The answer that's a good question. In the moment I

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Speaker 2: put it out, I put that feel that it's perfect,

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Speaker 2: and once it's out and there's nothing I can do

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Speaker 2: about it, I try to let go of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have to write, like I tell my friends if

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Speaker 2: they're for they're listening, like read it looking in a

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Speaker 2: book I wrote or a podcast. I'm like, before it's out,

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Speaker 2: I really want your critical feedback, tell me everything that's

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Speaker 2: wrong with it, tell me all the mistakes. Just don't

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Speaker 2: spare me anything. But once it's out, just tell me

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Speaker 2: it's great.

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Speaker 1: It's too late. Yeah, just a good job. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So are you looking any more besides those five that

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Speaker 2: I mentioned.

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Speaker 1: I mean not eminently, no, I mean really, it's it's

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Speaker 1: this show right now that we're focusing on, and it's

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Speaker 1: up and vanished the new season. It's a case in Alaska.

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Speaker 1: So we've been going back and forth to know im Alaska,

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Speaker 1: and we got I mean, we're really deep into We

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Speaker 1: probably have thirty plus interviews and made some serious headway.

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Speaker 1: Haven't started producing the actual episodes yet like audio form,

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Speaker 1: but have a good outline going. That'll be a whole gauntlet.

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Speaker 1: But we've done it enough times and have enough people

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Speaker 1: to help out. I feel like we're kind of just

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Speaker 1: putting the shoes back on and trying to up to

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Speaker 1: Anny a little bit. Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's man, you know, I really think it's tough to well,

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Speaker 2: first of a one time with your time management, and

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Speaker 2: then I want to get to say that the toughness

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Speaker 2: of really trying, like you said, you make you make

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Speaker 2: headway on these cases and you're such have a real

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Speaker 2: idea what happened, and then getting the information out of

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Speaker 2: someone's head who might be responsible, right, is such a

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Speaker 2: challenge you do that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's such a challenge to challenging to you.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's hard to there's a

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Speaker 2: new case I'm looking at for for to live and

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Speaker 2: die in La pretty clear what happened. It's just the

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Speaker 2: craziest thing. I've like a good idea of this kind

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Speaker 2: of dark but hopeful for the family. I mean they're

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Speaker 2: they've been closely involved, but of where the body is

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Speaker 2: and and and uh and all these kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: But they're.

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Speaker 2: Things where you can't. Where you can't match it, you can't.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to give away too much where it

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Speaker 2: doesn't always fit or something f you're missing a little

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Speaker 2: piece of information that will draw a line from X

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Speaker 2: to Y and everything around it points to that. But

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Speaker 2: without that piece of information, you can't really say that.

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Speaker 1: I wish I could be more specific. And in your head,

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Speaker 1: is there a person that likely murdered somebody here? I

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Speaker 1: mean your opinion in.

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Speaker 2: This case, they're like some people behaving like super suspiciously.

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Speaker 2: Whereas everybody's willing to help, everybody's willing to get in

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Speaker 2: and and and help out in any way possible, knows

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Speaker 2: this person except for some people who strangely won't.

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Speaker 1: How much do you rely on your gut instincts? I

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Speaker 1: think you can't. You can't explain that to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you ignore them or do you just compartmentalize that?

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Speaker 2: I think you can. I think you compartmentalize that. As

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Speaker 2: another I think you have to compartmentalize it, because your

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Speaker 2: gut instinct is going to be just so wrong if

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Speaker 2: you think about this, think about social media. We've spent

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Speaker 2: too much time thinking about it. So whereas somebody reads

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Speaker 2: a news article or see someone. They take three pieces

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Speaker 2: of information, and people can cuct an entire narrative out

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Speaker 2: of three piece of information. They wink they know who

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Speaker 2: somebody is because they have three piece of information out

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Speaker 2: of all the data of their life. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's really easy when you're doing a podcast to take

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Speaker 2: a couple of information, a couple piece of information, think

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Speaker 2: you have a narrative, get a few more, realize that

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Speaker 2: narrative changes, get a few more, and realize. And so

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Speaker 2: I think you got to get is. I think you

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Speaker 2: have to your gut how about this, and see if

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Speaker 2: you agree with this? Your gut uh is information to investigate.

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Speaker 2: So if you're good at saying this, well that's something

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Speaker 2: to investigate. But what you have to do is pull

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Speaker 2: as many data points together as possible until possibilities start

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Speaker 2: to eliminate themselves.

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Speaker 1: I tend to follow my gut, but I also conscious

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Speaker 1: consciously check myself, Like you know, I go out of

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Speaker 1: my way and say, hey, let's let's think about this

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Speaker 1: from a different angle here, right. And I know you've

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Speaker 1: had the instinct, but sometimes that is not entirely correct

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Speaker 1: because it's based on limited information or whatever it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's a mix. But I've found that a lot

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Speaker 1: of times it's pointing somewhere or or it will be

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Speaker 1: a thing where my gut's telling me, don't waste your

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Speaker 1: time over here. Yeah, I I mean I found that.

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Speaker 2: I found that if you get enough that was gonna

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Speaker 2: name a write a book about some of the cases

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Speaker 2: called everyone is Suspicious.

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Speaker 1: And maybe I'll still write it. I probably will. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a good title. Yeah, yeah, you take that one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you could take it podcast the sixth pod, seventh podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you'll host, yes, so.

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Speaker 2: And the idea is that just everybody can start to

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Speaker 2: look suspicious after a while. I remember with like a

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Speaker 2: season two of To Live In with Elaine Park, we

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Speaker 2: were just letting there are so many people who were

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Speaker 2: suspicious in her life who we didn't who we explore,

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Speaker 2: who we didn't put the podcast, but we were like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, this is it's her.

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Speaker 1: As an example, there was a behind the scenes moment

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Speaker 1: where you're thinking is this the person? And then you

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Speaker 1: move past that or what Yeah? Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's about the data points where all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, her tattoo artist, who uh

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Speaker 2: who she saw just right before she appeared was supposed

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Speaker 2: to see and cancel the appointment, has this criminal record

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Speaker 2: we didn't know about. And then you look up some

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Speaker 2: stuff on social media and maybe there's a couple of

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Speaker 2: words that seems suspicious and you're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: this could be it. And then you start investigating talking

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Speaker 2: to them and looking at all the other data points

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Speaker 2: and realizing that's not a possibility. But literally, you can

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Speaker 2: name anyone sometimes in someone's life and they can start

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Speaker 2: to look. And by the way, I do want to say,

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Speaker 2: just for the record, that tattoo artists that spend some

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Speaker 2: time with them and it's a great guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah good, yeah, but the guy. But just is it

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Speaker 1: human nature you think for people to want to connect

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Speaker 1: the dots or something and make things fit when they

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily objectively fit. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think humans love narrative, We love stories. Storytelling is

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Speaker 2: how we get around. That's why we learned through metaphor.

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Speaker 2: All the works of spiritual and religious tradition write our

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Speaker 2: stories through which we learned these lessons. And we're just

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Speaker 2: like meaning making machine. So we can just look at

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Speaker 2: two or three pieces of data and I think we

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Speaker 2: have it all figured out, and I think that's the

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Speaker 2: danger of some of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: So what fixes that self awareness or something.

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Speaker 2: What fixes this is like humility, Yeah, humility and accepting uncertainty. Right,

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Speaker 2: So to say, maybe that piece of data is true,

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Speaker 2: and that piece of data is true, but that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that the third thing is then true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have to conjure up an answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because because we fill in the gaps with story.

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Speaker 2: Like you said, you might have a gut or an

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Speaker 2: instinct on something and it feels right right, and then

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Speaker 2: I can certainly think in these cases other people I've spoken,

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Speaker 2: I went and went to a dinner once and we

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Speaker 2: was talking about the case ies investigating, and everyone had

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Speaker 2: their own theory of and I named the suspects. Everyone

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Speaker 2: had their own theory who did it, and their theory

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Speaker 2: often had more to do with their own personal.

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Speaker 1: Appreciation of something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I guess someone has a troubled relationship with X, so

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Speaker 2: of course the X did it? You know, right, life

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Speaker 2: exactly so people, so sometimes our God is just projection.

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Speaker 2: By the way, to wrap up the other thought, it

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Speaker 2: was even necessary conclude exactly here's who did it? To

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Speaker 2: include does you just have to get as many data

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Speaker 2: points as possible and then research the actors of those

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Speaker 2: data points, because it's crazy. I just it's the when

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Speaker 2: I do write a book, I fact check it like

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Speaker 2: insan like like a like. I spent months fact checking it.

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Speaker 2: And I remember there were one of my books had

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Speaker 2: statistics on infidelian relationships and we went and called the

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Speaker 2: researcher who this was credited to. He was all over

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Speaker 2: the internet just to make sure it was true. And

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Speaker 2: I remember she said, I didn't say this. It's all

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Speaker 2: of the internet. I can't stop it. This is not

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Speaker 2: from my research. So literally, we rely on so much

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Speaker 2: information that's just wrong and an accurate in our culture

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Speaker 2: or being friends with people who get written about in

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Speaker 2: the media and things like that, and knowing what the

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Speaker 2: real story may.

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Speaker 1: Be, right exactly. Yes, it's often a little different, yeah,

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Speaker 1: m hmm. I mean I was doing a lot, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of just digging on all the work you've

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Speaker 1: done in your career before we met here today, and

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Speaker 1: just reminded again of all the cool shit you've done.

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Speaker 1: And you've been a journalist, you know, through and through

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Speaker 1: for a long time, and I wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: Why do you like it? Right?

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Speaker 2: I think the reason is I love I'm just very

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Speaker 2: curious and I'm really more interested in what's happening now

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Speaker 2: or next than anything that happened or I did before,

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Speaker 2: if that makes sense. So I think why I love

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Speaker 2: curios driving, Yeah, it's totally driven by curiosity and trying

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Speaker 2: to understand the world and through that maybe trying to

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Speaker 2: understand a little more about myself.

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Speaker 1: What have you learned about humans in general? Having talked

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Speaker 1: to so many different people and sometimes very deeply and

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Speaker 1: in difficult situations.

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Speaker 2: See what have I learned about humans in general? It's funny,

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Speaker 2: is it? My friend Robert Green he wrote a book

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Speaker 2: called Laws of Human Nature, which I need to read.

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Speaker 2: That might be the best place to answer that. He

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Speaker 2: might be the best person for that question. That most

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Speaker 2: humans are people just they're just people trying their best,

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Speaker 2: you know, and really trying to figure it out. And

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Speaker 2: I think the most best thing I learned is really

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Speaker 2: having empathy for everybody except for like literally, I think

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Speaker 2: I've went that one or two true psychopaths in my.

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Speaker 1: Life, really, And who were they? I can't say their

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Speaker 1: names because I'm still scared of them. Like literally, well, really, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like they're out and about behind bars or something. One

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Speaker 1: is one? Is it? Okay? Yeah, Well what's the safer one?

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Speaker 1: Or is he imminently getting out?

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Speaker 2: I would never I would just never say it. Really,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean I spoke to that.

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Speaker 1: I mean this.

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Speaker 2: If you ever run across the site like a true psychopath,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll explain that to me, then okay, this.

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Speaker 1: Is a true psychopath here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a there's a I think there's a difference

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Speaker 2: between a lot of people say, oh, my ex partner,

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Speaker 2: whether business or relationship partner, was a psychopath.

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Speaker 1: It's tossed around a lot, gets tossed around a.

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Speaker 2: Lot because they think, well, if they hurt me, they

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Speaker 2: must be a psychopath because I'm a great person, right, okay, psychopathy, Okay, psychopath.

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Speaker 2: But most people are just dealing with their own trauma

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Speaker 2: and their own confusion, feeling unresolved emotional issues. They're saying,

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Speaker 2: we're all victims of victims. You know, does that mean

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Speaker 2: that means like most people This is gonna be another

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Speaker 2: thing we're gonna say, what does that mean most people

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Speaker 2: who perpetrate you do something bad as someone else do

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Speaker 2: it from the position of them being a.

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Speaker 1: Victim, them viewing themselves as the victim in this scenario. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: And what does that do if you're doing.

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Speaker 2: That, It allows you to think that it's right to

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Speaker 2: hurt someone else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're giving yourself permission to do something. Maybe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean look at if you look at any

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Speaker 2: historical atrocity, it was like it was justified through a

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Speaker 2: victim lens. If you really go look at whatever, the propagari.

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Speaker 1: Killer or something where you know, my mom was.

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Speaker 2: A serial killers. What I'm saying is a circular is different. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So we're talking about difference between people who just harm

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Speaker 2: others and people who are actually psychopaths who enjoy harming others.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so up and just literally enjoy it. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: is this?

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Speaker 2: So that's the difference. That's what I'm saying is like

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Speaker 2: the reason why these they're scariest because they literally get

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Speaker 2: pleasure from hurting other people. That's literally their pleasure, the

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Speaker 2: way we get pleasure from like a bike ride, and

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Speaker 2: and they're consciously doing this, and if you're on their radar,

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Speaker 2: you're a potential target.

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Speaker 1: That's scary.

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Speaker 2: So the reason you don't want to mention their name,

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Speaker 2: because you don't want to be on their radar.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't yeh, don't bring me into this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean literally.

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Speaker 2: Talk to someone once who said, like, I don't like

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Speaker 2: to kill people because you kill them, they're not around

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Speaker 2: to fear you anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty bad. He likes to just.

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Speaker 2: Maybe keep them in terror.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so so again, maybe that's a degree or a

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Speaker 2: class of psychopath. And I'm sure there's people along the

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Speaker 2: different people on the psycho psychopathy range. But if you've

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Speaker 2: met this and really I didn't understand what evil.

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Speaker 1: Was, so you think that this is not excusable in

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Speaker 1: some way from a solely a mental illness or something,

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Speaker 1: and that they're they're conscious enough that they're just making

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Speaker 1: decisions and they want to hurt people.

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Speaker 2: I mean to backing up, nothing's excusable or course, but

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Speaker 2: there's but there's the boundary there. But there's always like

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Speaker 2: a blob. But we're trying under what we're trying to do.

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Speaker 2: I think we understand why people perpetrate. Maybe we can

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Speaker 2: lessen it, right, okay, right, And so by a wrangle

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Speaker 2: one night, So it's not saying oh that's okay because

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Speaker 2: you felt like you're victim or not say that it's fine,

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Speaker 2: he found it. What is saying it is like, oh,

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Speaker 2: these this is the the UH recipe for perpetration, and

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Speaker 2: so we can maybe start to see the signs, intervene,

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Speaker 2: see that kind of thinking, know how to protect ourselves,

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Speaker 2: you know, watch it happening, and the culture get get

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Speaker 2: smarter about right about versus learn prevent it, versus saying oh,

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Speaker 2: they're just evil. They're just evil people doing evil things.

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Speaker 2: That's not they're they literally people think they're right. They

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Speaker 2: have to think they're right almost to do it if

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Speaker 2: they're not a complete psychopath.

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Speaker 1: We were talking last night. I was just saying that,

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Speaker 1: out of almost all the people that I know, you're

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Speaker 1: one of the the people that can talk to others

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Speaker 1: the best. And I think you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: experience doing that, and you've probably talked to people who

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Speaker 1: are very different than you have you know, a checkered past.

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Speaker 1: I was curious how you were able to get better

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Speaker 1: at that at all, and how you've what your journey

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Speaker 1: has been like through learning about yourself. I'm sure through

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Speaker 1: that process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I thought about it more, by the way,

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Speaker 2: and I prefer being in your side of the mic

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Speaker 2: than mine.

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Speaker 1: I know my show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's fine, exactly exactly, but I think that the

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Speaker 2: rea and is.

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Speaker 1: You're good at it. You already asked me questions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's done, he's good, exactly exactly getting me. We're still

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Speaker 1: we're still going to get back to your time manager.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all of the mask question in a second.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I'm really because I really think just

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Speaker 2: and I'll get back to your thing about my but

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00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 2: why I do that, it's them thoughts on that. But

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Speaker 2: it is interesting. I think you're the only person I know.

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Speaker 2: You know, most people just have a podcast and they

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Speaker 2: do it and then maybe they start like a side podcast,

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Speaker 2: but like you kind of the only person like has

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Speaker 2: a whole constellation. Yeah, podcast constellation never chilled out. You're

395
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 2: unique in the field to flow down. Yeah, yeah, or

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Speaker 2: maybe not. That's I mean, that's who you are.

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Speaker 1: I think that's I mean, honestly, when I first got

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Speaker 1: into this space, I viewed this and I think I was,

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00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, at least a little bit correct on this

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Speaker 1: that I needed to make the most of this, right.

401
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 1: This was going to be the thing that if I

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Speaker 1: made it work, I could do all the other things

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Speaker 1: that I want to do in my life too down

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Speaker 1: the road, and so that it kind of was a

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00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,360
Speaker 1: blinders on thing for a couple of years, just kind

406
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: of knowing that it might be kind of hard, but

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00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 1: if you can build something bigger out of this, it

408
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 1: will have been worth it. And just toughen up and

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00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: try to do it because it could be better for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but do you think in making the most of

411
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: it that like you can make too much of it

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00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 2: in at then degrade you're just either your quality of

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Speaker 2: life or oh when people are kind of confused, like

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Speaker 2: people can kind of follow everything you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think so. But I also think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: if we're in the time span of you know, six

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Speaker 1: years or so, maybe almost seven, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be able to show people that I can

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Speaker 1: do other things, right. I wanted to make Radio Rental

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00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 1: that was a whole fictional world that I built that

421
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: was like an anthology series of real stories, blending stuff

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Speaker 1: that you kind of knew me from and that I

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Speaker 1: can I can world build too, right, I can do

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Speaker 1: something over here, which is really what I wanted to

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00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: do first. Right, that was like what I was most into.

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00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: I kind of fell into being a journalist, which sounds bizarre.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like a balancing act. And if I

428
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Speaker 1: didn't love it, I would be I wouldn't have done

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00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: this much stuff, right. I do like the freedom and

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Speaker 1: liberation of Hey, every time you do this, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a new adventure, and I like the adventure mindset

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Speaker 1: of life sometimes and and there's freedom.

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Speaker 2: I mean you having also done the TV thing with

434
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 2: Discovery is also like the freedom of I feel like

435
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: when you do a podcast you really can communicate it

436
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: and real quick.

437
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: How much freedom I did not have anymore? Yeah, right

438
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: on the thing that I made by me with me

439
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, I know exactly. That wouldn't make any sense.

440
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: And imagine, yeah, imagine they actually if it's so funny

441
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 2: how they don't. They're like, we want you because your

442
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: unique point of view and sensibility and take on these things.

443
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: Right then, don't do what you do.

444
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: But don't give us any of that. Do what we do.

445
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: The weird it's the weirdest bass. I've never understood it. Yeah,

446
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've experienced that too. Yeah, it's it's the

447
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 1: wildest thing.

448
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: I remember, like I was doing something for HBO and

449
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 2: it was an hour long trauma and then they said,

450
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: you know, we love it, but just Entourage just left

451
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 2: the air. We did half our comedy to replace Entourage.

452
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: You could just turn half our comedy replace Entourage. We'll

453
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: put it on the air, so they so if we

454
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: do it, we start, we turn it in, you know

455
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: when we go through like eighteen draft where they keep

456
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: giving you notes and then they we get it through,

457
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: like you know, it's really good, but we're not looking

458
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: for something to replace Entourage right now.

459
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well why do you say that? It just literally

460
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: makes no sense. They're just a walking contradiction.

461
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really made a mistake. It was a

462
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: show with James Gandolfini before he passed, and he gave

463
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: me the advice and I was always it's like a beautiful,

464
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: beautiful soul in person, like truly really truly, like great

465
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 2: great hearts, surrounded by this like gruff, you know, this

466
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 2: kind gruff, no nonsense wall. I was just really like

467
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: I really really and he gave me so much advice

468
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: that I either took or regreted not taking.

469
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: The life stuff.

470
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: He was like fuck him. His advice was like fuck him.

471
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: You do do exactly what you want. Oh wow, don't

472
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: listen to them because they're going to screw it up.

473
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 2: And his other thing was and the audience doesn't have

474
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: to understand it. You can just you don't have to

475
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: explain nothing.

476
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: To the audience.

477
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: Really, so he really was like very uh and uncompromising artistic,

478
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: but he was also right. I think when you watch

479
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: something and it's pandering the audience, you're trying to make

480
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: sure everybody's there, versus just really telling the story like

481
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: you do in your podcast, the story you want to

482
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: tell and the way you want to tell. That's possible,

483
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: of course you consider the audience. You make it interesting

484
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: for the audience or I don't want you to not

485
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: like those right, but you're not but not tethered to you.

486
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: He would say you should know and your character should

487
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: always know more than the audience.

488
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is definitely true.

489
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: I feel that I found yeah yeah, and he really

490
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: like got it so so I should have taken that advice.

491
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: But anyway, it's a surreal it's a weird business. Whereas

492
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: podcast you can have just as big of a listenership

493
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 2: and have creative control.

494
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've spoiled myself now It's like going to

495
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: anything else is going to be at least a little

496
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 1: bit more difficult unless I'm collaborating with other peers of

497
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: mine who are just giving me a shot at being

498
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: more in charge, which I think I could eventually get

499
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: to that point, but I get probably at one or

500
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: two of those before I don't get that again.

501
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean notes are great, feedback is great. All

502
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: those things make something better. But when it's like when

503
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: it's this is our formulam what we do and know

504
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: that won't work, and it's all fear based stuff. Yeah,

505
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: I think anything fear based in anything creative is a

506
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: detriment of my question about to go about your question?

507
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: All these question people that you talk to, which see

508
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: you're so good at talking to me, how do you

509
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: How are you able to make that connection with people

510
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: that others may not be able to or just from

511
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: a black and white viewpoint, you'd think there's no way

512
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: this guy would talk to you, but they are. How

513
00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: do you manage the.

514
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: Did a lot of interviews for Rolling Stone in the

515
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: New York Times, like thousands of them with some highly

516
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: guarded people of them.

517
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: At this point, there.

518
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: Might be damn, it might be I mean, I've done

519
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: thousands of articles. Maybe it's less interviews, maybe it's a lot.

520
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: Maybe it's like high hundreds, close to one thousand. I

521
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: don't know, but it's a lot. I mean because I

522
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 2: had like a weekly column there, and I'd probably write

523
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: about five articles a week there, and a weekly comment

524
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: might have two or three interviews or two interviews. You

525
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: know what probably is if I even count everyone who

526
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: I called just to get quotes and things like that,

527
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: it's got to be thousands. Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yeah,

528
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 2: we have months before exactly. So so the answer is this,

529
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: not to try to use them for my purposes. You know,

530
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: which are what which are telling the story? Which are

531
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: let's say you're interviewing some celebrity who has some scandal

532
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: or something like that.

533
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: Sure, and like today with me and you with me

534
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: and you right, exactly.

535
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: And and so but as soon as you if you're

536
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: speaking from the point of I just I watch interviewers

537
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: and it like hurts me. I try people interview someone

538
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: and they think they're being a journalist by asking the

539
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: hard hitting questions, So why did you say that about

540
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: that other celebrity or what why did you do that?

541
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: And then once you start coming from that judgmental judgment,

542
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: that media judgmental place. Well, how does someone act when

543
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: they're judged If someone is judging me, Yeah, it feels judgmental.

544
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: That's it. Welcome, I don't fuck with you then, But

545
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: you're stuck with it with the interview. No anymore, you're out,

546
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: you like so long? Yeah, I mean, unless I'm like

547
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: being bolted to the chair. I mean, if I was

548
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: really offended, I would just I would at the very least,

549
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: I would do probably what you're thinking right now. I

550
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: would just say less, yes exactly. Or if I'm not leaving,

551
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: I'm saying less and not telling you all the details

552
00:27:59,280 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: that you want exact.

553
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: Or a child raised by a judgmental parent closing up

554
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: doesn't show their authentic self because you don't want to

555
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: be judged negatively, right and so and so one is

556
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: not being judgmental, not trying to like ask questions just

557
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: to get answers. I try to like see the world

558
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: through their eyes and through their point of view.

559
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: Like trying to really understand their perspective to write paint

560
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: that picture.

561
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so say so, if it's somebody who went through

562
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: a breakup, that like the media question might be, like,

563
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: you know, might be why did you break up with

564
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: that person? Or how deeply impacted you know, they're doing

565
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: some media thing, but what they're really thinking about is, God,

566
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: I'm stressed out. I'm trying to go going through a

567
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: real deep heartbreak and everything is wrong and messed up

568
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: about in the media and just compounding my pain, you know,

569
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: and actually empathize what it's like to go through break

570
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: them on this public level with people writing all this

571
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: shit about it probably isn't even true. They're going to

572
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: be feel heard and seen. It's not a technique. It's

573
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: just I'm really trying to think of, what's it like.

574
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: It's hard enough to go through a breakup. All of

575
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: us listening have gone through a breakup. I'm sure we've

576
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: all gone through a hard breakup. If we've gone through one,

577
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: and it's hard and it's painful and it's confusing, and

578
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: you can be shattered and not feel like yourself, and

579
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: then imagine that the whole world is watching you go

580
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: through this. What a horrible you know, and so you

581
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: don't want to be another cause of pain when you're

582
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: interviewing something like that. So I think it's I think

583
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: it's being curious, trying my best to understand what world

584
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: is like from their perspective.

585
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: Do you call upon things that have happened to you

586
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: in your life in terms of similarity to make a

587
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: connection or to try to understand how they may feel

588
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: based on how it may relate to something that you've experienced.

589
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. Like we're having a dialogue now,

590
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 2: and I love having a dialogue, and I'm obviously very

591
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: open because we're just chatting, and I'm forgetting I'm holding

592
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: this five pound mica whistle later, but yeah, I know

593
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: exactly I should have done that shoulder work today.

594
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I shouldn't.

595
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: So I find it true also that I've definitely done

596
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: interviews where someone just ask questions, here's the next question,

597
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: here's the next question. They give nothing of themselves.

598
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems very and.

599
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: I feel so raw and vulnerable and I don't like

600
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: I don't like that either.

601
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

602
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: And sometimes I've seen people share something as a manipulative tech,

603
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: manipultive tech.

604
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: Why why are you sharing that? Right? Right? Yeah? And

605
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a if I want someone to

606
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: be vulnerable with me, it's kind of my new philosophy

607
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: that have kind of just developed over the years, then

608
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: I should be will I have to be willing to

609
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 1: be vulnerable with you, right, And if we can do

610
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: that and I can just show you my hand, then

611
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: maybe we're laying it all out here and we're actually

612
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: learning something from each other today. Yeah.

613
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: I mean I've definitely been with journalists as an interviewee

614
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: where I'm like, and what what about your situation with that?

615
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: Because I'm curious and they're like, oh, I'm the I'm

616
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: the interviewer.

617
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: Here, like I could be on the other side, right,

618
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, so, yeah, so on the other side.

619
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: I remember asking the journalist once, well, what what's your

620
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: experience with that? And I think they were like, I'm

621
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: the interviewer here. So I was like, oh, if you're

622
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: not gonna show any vulnerability, I just feel less comfortable

623
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: opening up.

624
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that there hasn't been a lot of

625
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: times where I've been on the other side of it

626
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: where I really felt like someone was, you know, getting

627
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: deeper with me in that way as the interviewee, right right,

628
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: a couple of times. But I think maybe because I

629
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: do this so much, I also had this sort of

630
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: a little bit of a guard up, just to figure

631
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: out what the purpose of this is and just being

632
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: aware of what this story is going to be and lust.

633
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: You'll tell you truly like you could probably get out

634
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: of me. But I don't know. Not everyone would do that,

635
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: And most people don't offer that sort of connection where

636
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: they seem like they really care. There's checking down the list,

637
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: and I don't like that. You're gonna get very deep

638
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: with me, just like, what do you want me to say?

639
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: I'll just say that, you know, because.

640
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: I want to it to hurt you. As as example,

641
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: I remember I was interviewing Tom Cruise for Rolling Stone

642
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: and Hell's Cruise House Cruise. Yeah, he said, yeah, he's

643
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: bad ass. Yeah, he's so great.

644
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: He's so great.

645
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: He's like i'd love you know. I noticed these little things.

646
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: But if he's talking to you, say you're out at

647
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: a whim, he's talking to you, He'll keep talking. He

648
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: never looks over his shoulder. Anyone else will keep talking

649
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: to you actually like say oh we're done, and he'll

650
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: just he'll stay there, really present with you.

651
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: I've never seen like give me example.

652
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: I mean, normally, if you're out and you see somebody

653
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 2: at a part or something like that. They'll like, Hey,

654
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: what's up, It's so great to see you. Usually they're

655
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 2: like they're out. The eyes will turn away, then their

656
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: body will turn away, right, and they're sort of and

657
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: he's there. And even though he's probably one of the

658
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: most in demand people, he's just planted and he's giving

659
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: you his full focus, his full attention.

660
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: He's fully listening. Uh.

661
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 2: I never seen that after he like, well, he invited me.

662
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: He invited him with scientology celebrity Gallo after I did

663
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: the article. So I went there and so I just

664
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: there was and that's obviously his his comfort zone.

665
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: Obviously.

666
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: So I just noticed that, and I just noticed him

667
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: like that with other people, and that he'd really keep

668
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: eye contact. And you'll notice most people, most people break

669
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: eye contact and move away.

670
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: You're good, thanks, and whybody?

671
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: When he was done, he would actually like keep the

672
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: eye contact longer as he It's a weird thing, but

673
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: he kids hard to say, but his body would move

674
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: away later I'm talking, he would keep the eye He

675
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: really was great. He was just a really just a

676
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: unique person. But the point I was going to make

677
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: was this, I was curious about science. I want to

678
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: understand scientology, not to like do a takedown or anything

679
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: like that.

680
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: I just like, what's the deal with this? Right?

681
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: And obviously it's important too, And so he took me

682
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: to the Scientology buildings. He pulled out textbooks, taught me

683
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: about the different scientology things. He so I got to

684
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: understand it that I wrote an article that just share

685
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 2: the experience without judging it. Just share the experience if

686
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: you can read it and judge it. And I think,

687
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: I remember, and I've done this other people. I don't

688
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: move open had an effect. Remember who was open more

689
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: open about scientology afterward? And then he some people said

690
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: some like nasty stuff and then he kind of shut

691
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: down about it. But I don't feel like it's my

692
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: place to to judge unless someone's really truly like harmed,

693
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: to judge someone else's life choices, unless they're really harming

694
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: someone else, it's.

695
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: Like, okay, you don't this isn't your jam, that's fine, Yeah,

696
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: who's If someone's not being hurt, then it's okay, do

697
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: whatever you want, Like, I'm not here to rule your life.

698
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Like if you're yeah, yeah exactly, or did

699
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 2: you just do a gotcha?

700
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't know what weird shit you're into.

701
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: Right exactly, We're good talk about it. So my my,

702
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: remember my editor at Rolling Stone early Joe Levy, said

703
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 2: that your job is to find out what makes people tick,

704
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: and so I always wanted to with like, I want

705
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: to find out what makes people tick, Like you can't

706
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: meet whoever it is, Tom Cruise, Lady Gago, whoever I interviewed,

707
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: and so I will try to meet them for you

708
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: in and give you just that experience of what.

709
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: It might be.

710
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: Like I was gonna say, what makes me to I

711
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: don't have we got an interview for long there. I

712
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out with all the podcasts trying

713
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: to get there, but you keep.

714
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: Asking me questionly. I was dancing around those answers exactly exactly,

715
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: but I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, we

716
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: could like ask a couple of questions that I am curious, like,

717
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: because you did say I want to make the most

718
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: of it, and so it made me think in my head, oh,

719
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: do you feel like there's a window that to open

720
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: up my clothes you're trying to just at one time

721
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: I did, yeah, I mean just because just from a

722
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: rational standpoint, not a fear of the unknown, necessarily just that, hey,

723
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: this is working better than anything else I've done before.

724
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: I've worked harder than I've ever done before. I'm at

725
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: this age where I need to grab this by the

726
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: horns and take control of my career. And that was

727
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: my mindset. And I think I've been able to provide

728
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: a buffer for myself now from that hard work. But

729
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: it's still a grind to me, but not as grueling

730
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: or you know, harmful to my mental health as it

731
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: was maybe at one point, just because it was so hard.

732
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: Like this is this is so what would you be like,

733
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: I'm so curious about this because huh if you didn't

734
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: have a podcast in production or that you're working on.

735
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: Like if this didn't work, like where would I be?

736
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: Or it's just a pause server at Chili's probably.

737
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: Or no, no, I would not no, not not a

738
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: I get that, but that wasn't what It's more like

739
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: just now you're just who you are. You have all

740
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 2: these things, but all the seasons rap you're not doing

741
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: the weekly what am I doing? How would you feel?

742
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: Would you be antsy? Would you feel like I need

743
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: about that?

744
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: Actually? Right? And you know people always you know, like

745
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: like my dad he retired. He's never going back to

746
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: that job worked at Luckheed Martin. He's like, fuck this place.

747
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: I never want to go back there. Ever, that's awesome.

748
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: He's living his life. He's just went to Bernie Man,

749
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: which is wild, just going on trips, you know, he's

750
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: never working a day. Is life like that? Ever? Again,

751
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: I don't. I think that I'll always want to do something.

752
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: I think if I sit still for too long, I'm

753
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: going to eventually be like, all right, I got an idea,

754
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna want to be able to actualize that.

755
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 1: Maybe they won't be high pressure ideas, or I won't

756
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: be as reliant on them in some sort of monetary

757
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: way or you know, career building way. But I think

758
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: I'm trying to strive to get to a point where

759
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm good enough, secure enough that I, I and my

760
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: other fellow creators around me can just be able to

761
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: do that and use our imaginations and try to make

762
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: shit and take risks and take it seriously because it's

763
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: fun and we like to do it right, and like,

764
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: that's what I like about life. And I realized that

765
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: I think I like that more than all the other things. Yeah,

766
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, but it's funny.

767
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: By the way, how I got to just note that,

768
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: how cool is it that your dack of co burning man.

769
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: As like, would you go this year with all the mud? Yeah?

770
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: He did? Oh my god. Yeah my mom was there too.

771
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: Uh huh no, way, yeah, that's there, Like.

772
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: It's actually really cool. We're stuck here for a few

773
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: more days, and uh, it's always not as bad as

774
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: they're staying in the news. I was like, woa, remember

775
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: remember you said that, what.

776
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: A beautiful outlook too. I know people who were just you.

777
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, they were like enjoying the extra days and

778
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: they had my dad probably had more than enough stuff

779
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 1: rations so it was yeah, I was like, that's wild

780
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: just picturing them there, I'm like, I hasn't. I'm not

781
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: computing that yet. Really yeah, look good for them. Hell

782
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: yeah yeah.

783
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I was curious too, like about the that

784
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: you always having to be doing. Oh yeah, I remember

785
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask you this, it's like super uh.

786
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: By the way, you are you buried or dating someone?

787
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: I can't remember dating somebody the same person. I was

788
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: married at one point, right, we got divorced about okay

789
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: for a year, so okay, what either the marriage or

790
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: the dating. What was their biggest complaint about you as

791
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: far as your work goes?

792
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: Oh, man, my whole life historically, through all my relationships,

793
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: in varying degrees and different chapters in my life, it's

794
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: been a struggle balancing my work. I workload my own drive,

795
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: how much I put into that and how much it

796
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: may take away from what I can give to somebody else. Yeah,

797
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: I've definitely gotten better at that and been more aware

798
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: of it. But the way that I do stuff, which

799
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: is like a you know it's a good and bad thing,

800
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: it's I really throw myself all the way in it,

801
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: to a point that I wouldn't even expect everyone to

802
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: understand because Donald Donald definitely, because i'd also keep if

803
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: it's in the hour, Yeah, yeah, to most the women

804
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: in my life. New too, I'm sure.

805
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: But I guess the reason I ask the reason I asked, Like,

806
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: and I'll just plant the scene now, like you can

807
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: cut this out of the podcast. But as you're listening,

808
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: as you're talking, like, I'm just thinking, Oh, we're working

809
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: to build and to create and to do something, to

810
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: do things, but there's also another part where we're awaiting things.

811
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: Oh little, but yeah, I mean, it's like it's uh,

812
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: I just try to be more more aware of how

813
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: I'm feeling when I'm doing the job now. And I

814
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: remember distinctly when I was editing High Strange and I

815
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: was really at a good point and it was feeling

816
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: good and it was clicking. I was deep in it,

817
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: and I go, you know what, like to myself, probably

818
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: even out loud, consciously said I think this is my

819
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: favorite place I was, And I was like, why is that?

820
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: I think it's because it's ultimate freedom in it. I'm

821
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: in my own world that I'm creating that I am

822
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: already envisioning sharing with people. So I feel connected already,

823
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: even though it's not even it's just me in a

824
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: room with headphones on. It feels like I'm you know,

825
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: preparing something to share and I'm like envisioning the connection already,

826
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: and it just feels like my own little world and

827
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: it's like I think it's just that simple, but like

828
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: I'm always like chasing to get back to that point.

829
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: There's all the other annoying ship you got to do

830
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: when you make something that isn't as fun. Yeah, if

831
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: it's worth it, I know it's funny.

832
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: It's like the great thing where it's you struggle so

833
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: much like it and then but it's kind of worth

834
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: it at the end. But but back to but so, yeah,

835
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a safe place to connect.

836
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's not that vulnerable. Do you feel the

837
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: same way or how do you feel?

838
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: Uh, unlike relationship. Unlike intimate relationships, you're you're in control. Uh,

839
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: you're still and you're you're sharing, but you're sort of

840
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: removed from everybody else whereas there is like that vulnerable

841
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: give and take, discomfort, lack of control, lack of knowing

842
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: what happens in a relationship.

843
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: So this is.

844
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: A safer form of relating, This is what I'm thinking.

845
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would definitely be the one of the first

846
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: to admit that, you know, I like things to be

847
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: in my control. Yeah, not in a way that that

848
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: could easily sound. I could also relinquish control. But if

849
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm in a position where I'm creating something from my brain,

850
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: I have to just to be able to understand it

851
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: and build it. I got to build to have a

852
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: level of control that allows me to build it at all. Yeah,

853
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: I think, And it's very liberating though. It's a good

854
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: feeling to do and I think I get most of

855
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: that control desire out through stuff like that.

856
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to and to answer your questions is a yeah.

857
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: I also think you can really control when you have trust. Yes,

858
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: So but to answer your question, I think it's like

859
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 2: to go like back and second and ask myself, Uh,

860
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: like I grew up just being misunderstood, always being like this.

861
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: The people say that a lot, But what do you

862
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: mean you were misunderstood? I don't know. I mean I

863
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: literally know.

864
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: I literally know because my mom wrote this like memoir

865
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: that she never published, and she was like, you know,

866
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 2: talking about my brother. He was always great in sweet

867
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: and Neil was always a problem.

868
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: And you know, you're a problem child or in someone's eyes.

869
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 2: Her, in her eyes, I think most parents, most parents,

870
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: and this hope this like connects with somebody when they

871
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: say you're you were bad as a kid or a

872
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: problem as a kid, and then you go around saying

873
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: I was a bad kid, it was a problem child.

874
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: I was No, you just were. You just didn't obey,

875
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: So you're disobedient. They say you're bad to get you

876
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: to obey. And the one who disobeys or is the

877
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: what they might call the black sheep. Or the scapegog

878
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: wherever they call it in the in the in the

879
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: family roles kind of paradigm is actually the smartest one

880
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: who sees this family system is not right, So I'm

881
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: not going to go along with it.

882
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: Are you like a rebel mentality that could be very

883
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: generalized and sound like a Western all of a sudden,

884
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: but it's right right, right?

885
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: I guess the simple answer is it's interesting like I

886
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: was both. I'm like half rebel and half complier even

887
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 2: as a child, like I didn't rebel, I didn't rebel

888
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 2: enough against the strictness, and and so going back to

889
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: just really feeling alone and misunderstood as a child, like

890
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: just having your intentions interpret as bad or negative all

891
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: the time when you're again, maybe that's why I've am

892
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: for for for feeling people missing.

893
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: Probably yeah, I never thought about that.

894
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: So so so I turned to writing as a way

895
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 2: to communicate without being told I was wrong. Right, So

896
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: whatever I said, it was wrong or it was challenged

897
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: or wasn't listened to, or somehow there was a fear

898
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: element put in there. I just couldn't. I think that's

899
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: another I just couldn't communicate, articulate anything completely without getting

900
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: sort of ending up defending myself somehow.

901
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: But you would spend time thinking about it and organizing

902
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: your thoughts and putting together something that.

903
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if I really speaks to what you're if

904
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 2: I could, if I could write it, then I could

905
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: share it all without anyone interrupting me.

906
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Just read this.

907
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's my full thoughts and then you can

908
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: have all your own opinons. But I at least articulated it.

909
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: So for me then going back to creation, whether it's

910
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 2: a podcast or or a book or something, I feel

911
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: like I can really safely tell my story or share

912
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 2: my point of view.

913
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: How do you remember the title choices for to Live

914
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: in dime on a? Oh right, how we got? How

915
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: did we get there? In your eyes?

916
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: I want to hear your versus a discussion.

917
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: This is funny because it's funny because I was on it.

918
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: I was on a podcast with Dave Aspery from Bulletproof

919
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: and and I think the title that you wanted was Gonzo.

920
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: Uh so it was that was a title suggestion that

921
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: I that is a fact. But what I really said,

922
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: I want to different that was this cannot be called

923
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: lost angelus. That was I said, you could literally name

924
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: it anything else, and we had like ten names. I

925
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: was like, I'd take any of them. Yeah, And I

926
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: was I was thinking about you, and I was like

927
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: Gonzo journalism, like you kind of do that. I kind

928
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: of do that too. I'm trying to give you a freebie.

929
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: And uh. Then you were like, that's a muppet and

930
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: I'm like, uh, right now it is? Or is Neil

931
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: Strauss the new thing you think of when you think

932
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: of Gonzo? Or you're gonna get memed by a muppet.

933
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: I was trying to fuck no, But I remember, like,

934
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: but I do remember. I was attached to Los Angeles.

935
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: But uh, I just did a book with Rick Rubin,

936
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: and he has a great philosophy which is really true

937
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: and this is where that.

938
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: Was Philosophy's never met him, but I love all the

939
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 1: things he says about creating.

940
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he says, if you both don't agree on something,

941
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: no one should compromise. You should keep working to you

942
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: have a better idea you both like. It just means

943
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: so if you're not agreeing, it means so true, the

944
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 2: work's not done.

945
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: So true. No, I agree with that, and this is

946
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: that we did.

947
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: I remember going back and forth on the title and

948
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 2: even the theme, right, like, yeah, yeah.

949
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't want to use the theme but it

950
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: worked fine. Yeah, I mean like we're fine. That was okay,

951
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it was amazing. It was amazing. It was

952
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: the best part of the show. Average. No, I was

953
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: actually but like those kind of moments for me are

954
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: also good. Yeah. I like, I'm we're going to get

955
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: better at this craft or any craft if I'm not wrong, right,

956
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: And I think in the creative world, being wrong is

957
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: a lot grayer, right, It's not as black and white.

958
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: But I thought it was kind of jarring to me.

959
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: I didn't see how it would work. But then I learned.

960
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, that that did work. And

961
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I really didn't think that in my head.

962
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: And you were right on the title. Los Angeles would

963
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: have been a horrible time. Yeah, really from it just

964
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: an SEO standpoint, like, what's the show called Los Angeles?

965
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: Los Angeles? No Los Angeles? Oh no, l O s

966
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: t Angeles. Oh okay, what happened? Someone lost another missing right? Okay?

967
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: Gonza the muppet? You mean that little Blue.

968
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: Guy arguments here though we're both right, we're both wrong

969
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: and by the way.

970
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: I really, I really enjoy that there's a thought. And

971
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: I say this to everybody who has a book, editor,

972
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: publish or anything like that. I hope, but I hope

973
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: it's never. I hope I was never can be honest,

974
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: but I was never like abrasive about it or no,

975
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: you never wore okay.

976
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: I was always, you know, respected how much you were

977
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: open to constructive criticism. And I try to be the same.

978
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: You know, I don't take it personally like that, And

979
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you actually have a thought. I want

980
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: to hear what it is, right. I'm not going to

981
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: just assume I'm right and just tunnel vision my way

982
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: out of there. I would rather know more information about it.

983
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: And if you're going out of your way to share

984
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: that with me, I feel like I should listen to that.

985
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: And so it was always cool to be able to

986
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: actually share my thoughts and I was just giving you

987
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: my top line, knee jerk gut reactions and stuff and

988
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: not trying to overthink it to kind of be more

989
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: from like a consumer standpoint a little bit where it's like,

990
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: how does this look when you're not buried in it?

991
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,959
Speaker 1: Because I know how it is when I get buried

992
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: in it and I need someone like Donald or you

993
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: even to to say, hey, it looks like this, Oh

994
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 1: it does well, let's do it differently.

995
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: Then yeah, and and so so the big key, like

996
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: the big key that I realized early on from having

997
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: books published, where you're argue with your editor over name

998
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,479
Speaker 2: or a title, or just not even arguing, just having

999
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 2: a disagreement over the cover. And I've seen people literally

1000
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: leave their deals, leave their publishing over publishers because over

1001
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: these things, and they get so angry about it. And

1002
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: but what you're not realizing is, or what people don't realize,

1003
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: is we both have the same interest in mind, which

1004
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: we want the best possible podcast. Yes, so a person

1005
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: as your partner, you don't need to get upset. They

1006
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 2: literally are not trying to sabotage you for messing up.

1007
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: Like literally, you both want the best podcasts, so you

1008
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: both have the same goal, so you can work even

1009
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: a different strategy for getting there, you can work together

1010
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: on it. So realizing these that's.

1011
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: Murky sometimes though you know in this case that was

1012
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: genuinely true. Some people I found just want to have

1013
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: their touch on it and logo really far out of

1014
00:49:54,920 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: their way and potentially bastardize other you know, better, stronger,

1015
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: more viable components to something just because they want to

1016
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: have something that was their idea. A part of this,

1017
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: I don't care like that I wanted to be person.

1018
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: If it's no my dear mighty or not you named

1019
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 1: that person, I'll name one of the psychopaths. Name is Neil.

1020
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: That's funny, pay lindsay, right, we learned a lot of

1021
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: exactly well, if good luck on your right home exactly.

1022
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 2: I'm in the back seat, right exactly. I mean, it's

1023
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: no one like. It's not anyone like in particular I'm

1024
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: thinking of in this moment.

1025
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: It's just stuff I've ran into over time and in

1026
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: different settings, from TV to you know, uh, podcasts to

1027
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, the business side and the extra creative side editors,

1028
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: and also met people who are willing to learn, and

1029
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: I know that it is a thing that you have

1030
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: to get better at, even just accepting feedback. I think

1031
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people aren't necessarily the best. I don't

1032
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: want to hear how you think it could be better.

1033
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: I wish it was already the best. But if you

1034
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: can accept that, you can make the best thing.

1035
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Yeah, I think it's so important, but it

1036
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: is tough when there are people who just want their

1037
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: fingers their imprints on it. And then you often realize that, Okay,

1038
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: there's a need underneath that. I always think, what's the

1039
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: need underneath that? And what is it really saying? So

1040
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: they're like, they want significance, and so somehow you can,

1041
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: somehow you can somehow sometimes please their need for significance

1042
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: without give them the strategy.

1043
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, we can. We can probably solve that, right

1044
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: we can. I want you to feel that you're a

1045
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: part of this. How can we do that? Yeah? But

1046
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: like if we care about the final product, we should

1047
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: all stay here and objectively say, hey, these are the

1048
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: better ideas we should go with this combination of stuff. Right. Yeah.

1049
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: I had this epiphany like a few months ago, which

1050
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: is to put to put to value people more than

1051
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: my way of doing things, okay, And what that means

1052
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 2: is if there's somebody who has an idea and you're

1053
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: sitting in the room and they throughout the idea, just like, no,

1054
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: now that won't work. That's making your thing more important

1055
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,959
Speaker 2: than who than them trying to contribute and share an idea,

1056
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: even if it's not an idea you love or even

1057
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: in relationships like people, how many times did I tell

1058
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: you just take the trash out and put in the

1059
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 2: three ply two ply bags tieing out of the tops

1060
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 2: of the rats, don't get in Like Jesus, you have

1061
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 2: no respect for me. Like do you want to be

1062
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: in love with this person?

1063
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 3: It?

1064
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: Can you still be in love with someone who is

1065
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: a one ply bag and doesn't tie it or whatever? What?

1066
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: People make their weight get so specific about their way

1067
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: of doing things that they scare off the people they

1068
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 2: work with. They scare off the people who love them

1069
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: and care about them. Yeah, and to not make your

1070
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: way of doing things more important than people.

1071
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: So if someone in the room, like a creative discussion,

1072
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: says some idea and you're inside your head, you're like,

1073
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: that's a terrible idea that you're thinking that, what do

1074
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: you What do you say to them? If they're asking

1075
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: what your thoughts are in that moment?

1076
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 2: I think I think I would I bet to them

1077
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: it's a good idea. So I want to understand how

1078
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: it may be good to them.

1079
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: Do you want them to explain the idea to you?

1080
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, yeah, tell me how what your thought

1081
00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: or what your vision is for or if it's just short,

1082
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 2: I'll just say, like I'll write that down. Now that's

1083
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 2: the list of stuff to consider.

1084
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: Then when they leave you, if that shit sucked.

1085
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: But here's what I find. I definitely and I wonder

1086
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 2: if you've done this too. I definitely kneed jerk said

1087
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: no to something that turned out to be the right

1088
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: idea later.

1089
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, yeah. That's why I said, like with my

1090
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: gut reaction is that I've also been incorrect and I

1091
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: know that, and that's why I'll have a feeling and

1092
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: I'll i will intentionally check myself, look in the mirror

1093
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: and try to say, hey, hey, hey, slow down. Yeah,

1094
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: let's let's see like that's that's that's more information, but

1095
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: like let's and if it's right, it's like, okay, I

1096
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: remember that. If if I did a pivot and I

1097
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: was like, oh I remember that too, that hey that

1098
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: one time you fell out of that, but you quickly

1099
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: learned because you, you know, try to dive deeper into

1100
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: it that this was not correct. Actually, I've talked to

1101
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: you about some of these things on a deeper level before,

1102
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: not for an extended period of time, per se but

1103
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: I've always learned from you and been curious how you

1104
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: navigate the world and especially being a journalist and how

1105
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: you deal with all the nuance of this stuff. And yeah,

1106
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: I think I learned even more that there's, you know,

1107
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: some similarities that I maybe he just could have thought

1108
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: we're there, but now I know we're there. I was

1109
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: joking with them last night. I was like, Tomorrow's and

1110
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: be interviewer, interviews interviewer, and I'm like, I already know

1111
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: he's going to come in here in school. My ass

1112
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: did school. I'm gonna throw I'm gonna throw a little

1113
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: monkey wrench over there. And he's like, what's that look

1114
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: over there? And I'm like, anyways, exactly exactly, Like playfully,

1115
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: it was fun just to like, yeah, I'm like, you

1116
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: could be the guy who could get that interview out

1117
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: of me, so every one day you will. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1118
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: I would do it. I'd like the experience. Yeah.

1119
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: I was even thinking of suggesting, oh, we should flip

1120
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 2: it around for your show.

1121
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah. Fun.

1122
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I I'm curious about, like I said earlier,

1123
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: the things that drive you, and I'll probably like really

1124
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:03,479
Speaker 2: good deeper to help people to get.

1125
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: Him out honestly. Yeah, And I just tell you the

1126
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: truth and try to not and.

1127
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 2: It's not really to get you out get him out.

1128
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 2: It's actually this sounds like might come off wrong, but

1129
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: I'll just say what I was thinking, which is almost

1130
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: through the discussion, it can help you understand it better. Yeah, exactly,

1131
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: like the way when we were talking and I realized, oh,

1132
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: this is why I have so much empathy for people

1133
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 2: feeling misunderstood growing up, and so I already.

1134
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: I'm open to having new realizations about why I do

1135
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: what I do. Yeah, it's all the stuff in between.

1136
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, awesome, man, did you get deep?

1137
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 1: We're good? That was awesome yet, dude, thank you so much.

1138
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and

1139
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 3: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1140
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 3: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1141
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 3: producer is Mike Rudy. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1142
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 3: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music by Makeup

1143
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 3: in Vanities. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, Sean Nerney,

1144
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 3: Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Cohedo. Production support by

1145
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 3: Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young, Mixing and mastering

1146
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 3: by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover art was

1147
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 3: created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website Talking to

1148
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 3: Death podcast dot com.

1149
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1150
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1151
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

1152
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus

1153
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: dot com