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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whips, Smarties,

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Speaker 1: we have a smarty on the podcast today. I am

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Speaker 1: joined by Alison Camarota. She is an American broadcast journalist

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Speaker 1: and a political commentator for CNN. She formerly was an

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Speaker 1: anchor of CNN's morning news show new Day, the co

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Speaker 1: host of the afternoon edition of CNN Newsroom, and she

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Speaker 1: served as host of CNN Tonight from twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: to twenty twenty three. And Allison came from a history

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Speaker 1: at Fox News. I have so many questions for her

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Speaker 1: about what it was like to go and work for

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Speaker 1: a competitor, and I'm really curious about her experiences during

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Speaker 1: the me Too era at Fox. She has been an

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Speaker 1: incredible voice, both about her own experiences and also as

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Speaker 1: an anchor for a number of primetime specials on the topic,

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Speaker 1: including Tipping Point, Sexual Harassment in America and The Hunting

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Speaker 1: Ground Sexual Assault on Campus. She is really an incredible

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Speaker 1: advocate and an incredible journalist, and today I'm really looking

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Speaker 1: forward to hearing about her making the leap from anchor

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Speaker 1: to author. She's just released her memoir called Combat Love,

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Speaker 1: which is the story of two women mother and daughter

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Speaker 1: trying to forge their own paths and independence and find

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Speaker 1: their own happiness, success, and wholeness. I really am amazed

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Speaker 1: at how vulnerable she chose to be in this book,

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Speaker 1: and how she really brings us into her world of

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Speaker 1: nurture and neglect, parenting and personal freedom and helps us

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Speaker 1: ask the questions, what are we willing to sacrifice for

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Speaker 1: self actualization and happiness? Let's dive in with Alison. Hi, Allison,

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Speaker 1: how are you. I'm great, How are you great? Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled to have you here today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I was doing a shoot earlier today, about

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Speaker 2: an hour north of my home, and I got the

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Speaker 2: time wrong, so I thought that I was talking to

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Speaker 2: you at one my time. And so I was in

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Speaker 2: the back office of a grocery store chain, which is

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Speaker 2: like the least glamorous, grittiest place you've ever seen. It had,

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Speaker 2: you know, like an old calendar, not from this year,

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Speaker 2: and like yeah, things taped up and just like ratty bags.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, Oh, this is going to be

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Speaker 2: a glamorous shoot with Sophia. She's going to really get

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Speaker 2: a gist of my job.

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Speaker 1: I totally get it. It's so funny. I think, whether

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Speaker 1: you know you're working in the news or in the

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Speaker 1: sort of film and television side, Like, I am always

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Speaker 1: wild when people come visit you on set and they go, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: this is not what I thought. And you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you see a produced news show or you see

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Speaker 1: people like at the Golden Globes and you don't know,

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Speaker 1: like how insane the place is where the media gets

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Speaker 1: made to get it to that stage. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: so totally.

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Speaker 2: Totally People are like, this is your green room coffee.

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Speaker 2: It's bile, you know, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I know, I love it well, I you know, jokes aside. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, I'm such just a lover of

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Speaker 1: the news, and I think, you know, USC Annenberg School

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Speaker 1: of Journalism student me would not believe that I get

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Speaker 1: to be here and interview so many journalists that I

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Speaker 1: love and admire. So thank you for coming to join

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Speaker 1: me on the show today, my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: And so you went to the school of communication or journalism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, journalism, I am. I went to you see to

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Speaker 1: get a BFA in theater and for me just realize

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Speaker 1: that the intensity of the program felt too narrow for me.

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Speaker 1: I had so many other interests in you know, political

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Speaker 1: science and the way the world works. And I found

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Speaker 1: journalism and a theater combo to be the perfect sort

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Speaker 1: of equation for me in school because I got to

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Speaker 1: really lean into what makes real stories so special and

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Speaker 1: how to communicate them well. And I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's influenced my work certainly as an activist, and I

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Speaker 1: think certainly as an actor, because you've got to kind

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Speaker 1: of find the truth and the thing you're doing if

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Speaker 1: you're making a TV show or you know, writing an

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Speaker 1: op ed about somebody. So I really loved it.

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Speaker 2: That's very cool, and I really appreciate what you're saying,

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Speaker 2: because storytelling is the bridge, you know. Storytelling is the

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Speaker 2: link between Yes, so many of our careers, whether it's acting,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a single or it's not just in the arts,

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Speaker 2: I mean even public policy, lawmakers. It's all storytelling. And

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Speaker 2: so really you realized that in particularly with the book

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Speaker 2: and being an author, I feel like those telling our

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Speaker 2: stories is what is the bridge between us. Yeah, regardless

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Speaker 2: of what you do.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, And I love and I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to dive into the book with you because to read

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Speaker 1: such a personal story, you know, this kind of excavation

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Speaker 1: work of family, and certainly I think what women inherit

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Speaker 1: through their familial line is so inspiring to me. And

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Speaker 1: I loved the way that you did this, and you're

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Speaker 1: saying something that really makes me think, you know, whether

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Speaker 1: it's you as a journalist going and writing a memoir

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Speaker 1: like this, or you know, what I have to figure

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Speaker 1: out if I'm going to go make a new movie

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Speaker 1: or something. I even think about it. My girlfriend Jessica

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Speaker 1: Malatti Rivera, whose work I'm sure you saw a lot

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic. You know, she's an incredible scientist and

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Speaker 1: helped really lead the forefront of the COVID tracking project

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Speaker 1: and so much advocacy for us. And she pointed out

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Speaker 1: that in the science and medical community there has been

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Speaker 1: such a lack of emphasis on the storytelling and that

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Speaker 1: her job, you know, the way she thinks of science

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Speaker 1: is science isn't finished until it's been clearly communicated, and

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Speaker 1: in particular to non scientists. And so when I think

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Speaker 1: about these ways that so many of us are realizing,

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Speaker 1: if we can't tell our stories to each other and

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Speaker 1: have them heard, we're failing the kind of human experiment

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Speaker 1: in a way. And it I guess I wonder was

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Speaker 1: kind of part of that craving to communicate what led

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Speaker 1: you to say, Okay, I'm really going to do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to work on this book, or or was

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Speaker 1: it something else.

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Speaker 2: No, it was exactly that. I mean, what prompted me

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Speaker 2: is that we all wear masks. I mean, in your career,

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Speaker 2: obviously you play a part, and we all wear these masks.

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Speaker 2: And in the news you are playing a part. You're

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Speaker 2: playing yourself, but you're playing a very polished version of

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Speaker 2: your self. And so I started to think, because this

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Speaker 2: is what I always connected with the viewers. I always

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Speaker 2: connected with my interview subjects. But people would sometimes share

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Speaker 2: with me the impression that, like, well, you must have

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Speaker 2: had an easy life, Allison, or like you, you know,

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Speaker 2: things have worked out so beautifully for you. Look at

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Speaker 2: how great you look, you know, on me. And I realized, oh,

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Speaker 2: the mask is too convincing, you know, Like it's when

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Speaker 2: I have the fake eyelashes on in the perfectly poffed

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Speaker 2: hair and the jewel tones, that that can give the

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Speaker 2: impression that it's been easy, but of course it hasn't

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Speaker 2: been easy, and that in that way, it was a

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Speaker 2: divide the screen itself is a divider between us, and

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Speaker 2: so I just felt like peeling off the mask might

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Speaker 2: be a bridge and help people understand. Oh no, yes,

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Speaker 2: I did get to achieve my dream, for which I'm very,

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Speaker 2: very grateful, but it is a total survival story, and

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of obstacles and you know, despair

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Speaker 2: on the way to getting that dream.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think what happens when us three dimensional

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Speaker 1: people get made into two dimensional you know, on screen

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Speaker 1: avatars essentially, is we lose all of our three dimensional

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Speaker 1: life and the dissonance between those things can be so jarring.

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Speaker 2: I think that's such a good point because by definition,

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Speaker 2: journalism requires you to be two dimensional, because really you're

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Speaker 2: just a conduit. You're supposed to the way we were

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Speaker 2: trained in you know, the eighties in journalism is don't

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Speaker 2: make your self the story. You know, you are just

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Speaker 2: the platform you're helping. You're the mouthpiece to help somebody

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Speaker 2: who doesn't have a voice or who wants to amplify

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Speaker 2: their voice. And I get it. I believe that. I

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Speaker 2: think that's been great. But at some point, and it

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Speaker 2: was somewhere around I think George Floyd's killing for me,

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Speaker 2: that I started thinking you know, it would be really

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Speaker 2: helpful if I could say to some of these folks

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Speaker 2: on the screen, I've been there. You know, I know

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Speaker 2: what it's like to be broke. I know what it's like.

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Speaker 2: I I somehow became close right after George Floyd's killing

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Speaker 2: because I interviewed his brother Forloness. I think we were

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Speaker 2: the first national interview that he did, and his grief

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Speaker 2: was so raw. It was the day after killing. His

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Speaker 2: grief was so raw, but his voice was already so profound,

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Speaker 2: and I was just struck by his strength. And somehow

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Speaker 2: I've become friends with George Floyd's girlfriend, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be when I interviewed her, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be able to say I get it. You know, I

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Speaker 2: have been in love with people who've struggled with substance

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Speaker 2: abuse and people who've been broken. I've been broken. I

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Speaker 2: know what it's like to be desperate, and I know

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Speaker 2: what it's like to lose people. But that's not our job.

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Speaker 2: So I felt like I had to keep people at

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Speaker 2: an arm's length and not share what I knew to

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Speaker 2: be true from my own story, And so that was

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Speaker 2: kind of motivation to actually publish it.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's really cool. How did you first get

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Speaker 1: into journalism?

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Speaker 2: So I was a teenager and I really really wanted

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Speaker 2: to be seen and heard, you know. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be seen and heard my whole life. I mean from

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Speaker 2: some of my memories and the book, I talk about

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Speaker 2: how starting at about five years old, I had this

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Speaker 2: invisible cameraman that started following me around everywhere. And I

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Speaker 2: would talk to my invisible cameraman and be like, did

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Speaker 2: you just see that? I hope you got a shot

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Speaker 2: at that. That was crazy, you know. And so I've

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Speaker 2: had to in writing the book analyze what was that

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Speaker 2: phenomenon I was doing. And I think it was wanting

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Speaker 2: to be validated, wanting to be seen and heard, and

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Speaker 2: installing some like witness to my life. I was an

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Speaker 2: only child, so I was lonely some of the time,

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Speaker 2: and I think I wanted, like, I don't know, supervision

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Speaker 2: or a witness or something. And so I always had

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Speaker 2: that dream to be seen and heard, and then it

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Speaker 2: crystallized when I was fifteen. I was watching Phil Donnie,

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Speaker 2: who was who was like the quintessential talk show host

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Speaker 2: of you know, the eighties, and he was running around

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Speaker 2: his studio with a microphone, and he just looked so

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Speaker 2: energetic and relevant and powerful, and I thought, what's that

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Speaker 2: job called? And somebody told me it's called broadcast journalists

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, I want to be a

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Speaker 2: broadcast journalist. That moment on, I just set my sights

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Speaker 2: on that and looked for schools and majored in broadcast

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Speaker 2: journalism and decided that.

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Speaker 1: Was for me. That's so cool. Back in just a minute.

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Speaker 1: But here's a word from our sponsors. Something I'm really

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Speaker 1: curious about as a journalism fan is the the difference

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Speaker 1: is between these big networks, and you've been at the biggest.

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Speaker 1: You know, you worked at Fox for years prior to

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Speaker 1: joining CNN in twenty fourteen. Was it, because again you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, you know sometimes people will look at you

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Speaker 1: up there as an anchor and think it's all easy.

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Speaker 1: Was it totally bonkers to move from one news network

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Speaker 1: to Arrival? What was that experience like for you? Behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes?

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Speaker 2: It was bonkers. I mean it was bonkers, not just

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Speaker 2: because I've moved from one network two Arrival, because I

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Speaker 2: think the people can go from ABC News to NBC

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Speaker 2: News or NBC to CBS and it not being as

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Speaker 2: much of a culture shock. Going from Box to CNN

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Speaker 2: was a particularly you know, daring, hat trick or whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call that. You know, backbend, I felt

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Speaker 2: personally that my journalism skills were portable, that I tried

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Speaker 2: to do good journalism at Fox. I tried to always

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Speaker 2: have the facts. I tried to come equipped with the

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Speaker 2: evidence for whoever I was interviewing, and I just transferred

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Speaker 2: my skills to CNN. So for me, it wasn't like

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Speaker 2: I didn't feel I had to relearn anything. But I

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Speaker 2: think it was total cognitive dissonance for the viewers because

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Speaker 2: to them, Fox has trained people to think that you're

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Speaker 2: on a team. You know, Fox is really a tribe,

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Speaker 2: and they made news kind of tribal in a way

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Speaker 2: that it had never been before. You know, people didn't

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like you were making a life choice if

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Speaker 2: you switched from CBS to NBC. But Fox really had

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Speaker 2: hardcore followers. So it felt like, I think a betrayal

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Speaker 2: to the viewers, and I had to kind of educate them.

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Speaker 2: I mean, some of them have been so kind I

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Speaker 2: must say to me, and have you know, reached out

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Speaker 2: on social media or whatever saying they missed me and

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Speaker 2: they loved me on there, and I've really appreciated that,

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Speaker 2: and I had to kind of educate them and say, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing the same thing I always did, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be part of a team. I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to help people tell their stories. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: for me, it wasn't at shocking, but not many people

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's actually quite when I have

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Speaker 1: examined my own thoughts about it, as I've observed the transition.

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Speaker 1: For you, I actually think it's hopeful because, as you said,

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Speaker 1: Fox has made the news so tribal, and you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe not everybody knows this, but those of us who

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Speaker 1: are obsessed with the news do that. You know, they've

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Speaker 1: been sued in court for lying to viewers, and their

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Speaker 1: lawyers say, well, any any sober news viewer knows were

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Speaker 1: not a news program. We're an opinion show. And I

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Speaker 1: go like, oh my god, this is the legal defense

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Speaker 1: in court. What is happening here? And I find it

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Speaker 1: really refreshing that as a journalist you can say I'm

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Speaker 1: doing journalism everywhere and anywhere. I'm not going to abide

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Speaker 1: by this very strange development into tribal coverage. And you

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Speaker 1: know you've talked about this, so I hope it's okay

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Speaker 1: for me to ask. But you talked so inspiringly about

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Speaker 1: what you faced at Fox. You were one of many

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Speaker 1: women there who faced sexual harassment and abuse. And I've

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Speaker 1: been so inspired by the way you all talked about that,

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Speaker 1: because my coworkers on my first show and I and

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Speaker 1: many of us on my next show had to talk

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Speaker 1: about this stuff as well. Was that part of why

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Speaker 1: you wanted to leave? Or was it that it was

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Speaker 1: getting so tribal that you didn't want to be there anymore?

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Speaker 1: Or was it sort of just a whole package of

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Speaker 1: this is awful I got to go.

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Speaker 2: I think it got worse. I think that it got

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Speaker 2: worse as Bo's got more successful. I think that Roger

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Speaker 2: ails that the boss for whom I worked, felt that

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Speaker 2: he saw what the audience wanted, and what he started

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Speaker 2: doing was giving the audience what they wanted at the

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Speaker 2: expense of truth, at the expense of facts, because what

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Speaker 2: to him, the best currency, the biggest currency, was winning

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Speaker 2: and ratings. And sure, we all like ratings, I get it,

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Speaker 2: that's the business model. However, at what cost? And so

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Speaker 2: he started, you know, allowing different you know, presenters. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to call them anchors because they they at Fox.

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Speaker 2: They use this language as though they're a news network,

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Speaker 2: but they don't follow the rules of newsporkers. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the viewers don't know that because nobody is giving them

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Speaker 2: a tutorial on journalism and one on one and exactly

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Speaker 2: what the rules of journalism are. But they don't use

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Speaker 2: solid sources or credible sources as we found out with

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Speaker 2: the dominion lawsuit, as you just referenced, and they end

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Speaker 2: up having to pay seven hundred and eighty seven million

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Speaker 2: dollars as a result of not using credible sources. So

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Speaker 2: that just isn't allowed at other networks because there are

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Speaker 2: rules of journalism, for one. So the idea that just

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Speaker 2: keep giving the audience what they want, keep giving the

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Speaker 2: viewers what they want, it ends up hurting obviously the

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Speaker 2: viewers because the viewers don't end up knowing the truth.

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Speaker 2: And when lo and behold somebody like Donald Trump says

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Speaker 2: that he actually won the election but he lost by

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Speaker 2: seven million, they take up arms and show up at

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Speaker 2: the capital. So I mean it has a real life,

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Speaker 2: immediate clause and effect. It's bad for everybody. I mean,

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Speaker 2: people are in prison right now because they believed those lawes.

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Speaker 2: So I could say that Roger, you know, I would

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Speaker 2: get in trouble there because he didn't like when I

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Speaker 2: would point out, I don't know, positive benefits or how

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Speaker 2: many people would benefit from Obamacare, he just stop talking

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Speaker 2: about that. I was like, and he told me, like

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Speaker 2: when I would say how many people were uninsured, he

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Speaker 2: would be like, use a different no number, a lower number.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what where you getting your numbers? You know?

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Speaker 2: And so I didn't like that. It was totally untethered

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Speaker 2: from reality. I wasn't comfortable with that ever. And to frankly,

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Speaker 2: the sexual harassment stuff, which is gross, wasn't even half

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Speaker 2: of it. I mean, I just didn't. I didn't buy

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Speaker 2: into the mission statement anymore of kind of tricking the

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Speaker 2: viewers to just to keep them coming back from more

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Speaker 2: and keeping them outraged. I don't. I didn't think any

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Speaker 2: of that was helpful. And I would say history has

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Speaker 2: proven that I was right.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. That has to feel nice, well except that, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a mess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mess, I mean, but for you individually,

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Speaker 2: I can't make that much joy in being vindicated because

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Speaker 2: it's well it's gone to hell. I mean that the

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Speaker 2: whole business model, as I said, has been so pernicious

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Speaker 2: on so many levels that the fact that I was

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Speaker 2: right doesn't feel that great, and which is why I try.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're asking me about it, because I

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Speaker 2: do try to talk about it wherever I can, hoping

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Speaker 2: that it can permeate the different silos. But I don't

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Speaker 2: really know that I'm being that effective. It's just a

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Speaker 2: sole voice about this.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's an awfully hard golias to go up against,

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Speaker 1: and you know what you're referencing. The sort of image

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Speaker 1: I get is it's like they created this immensely toxic

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Speaker 1: thing and the trains left the station. Like you can't

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Speaker 1: really close Pandora's box once you open it. And I

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Speaker 1: think we as a society will have a lot of

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Speaker 1: work to do to reprioritize truth and we kind of

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Speaker 1: have to build the plane while we're flying it, and

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Speaker 1: that's a bit scary. But I'm so grateful that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about this every chance you get, because you're right.

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Speaker 1: You know, people need to know and they do need

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Speaker 1: to understand the difference and the legal loopholes that some

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Speaker 1: folks like Roger Ayls have used for so long to

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Speaker 1: try to trick people, to try to create this tribalism,

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Speaker 1: which you know, we've seen these really detrimental side effects of.

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Speaker 1: Was it? I understand, you know, I think anyway, I

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Speaker 1: understand the immense pressure you must have felt at times,

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Speaker 1: you know, when being told change the numbers. Don't talk

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Speaker 1: about the benefits of healthcare. I'm sure they hated, you know,

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Speaker 1: the simple data point that it actually costs us so

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Speaker 1: much more money in the US to just not ensure everyone,

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Speaker 1: but it would to have universal health care. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that wasn't a popular.

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Speaker 2: I supposed to stifle that? Was it?

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Speaker 1: How though? As because these are grand ideas, and these

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Speaker 1: are big truths and they affect the nation, but you're

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Speaker 1: still just a singular human. How did you navigate your

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Speaker 1: personal experience of being in that rock and a hard

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Speaker 1: place where you were told not to tell the truth

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Speaker 1: on air, or or you were asked to say things

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Speaker 1: that went against you know, what you know to be

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Speaker 1: true and what you believe in. Was it? Was it

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Speaker 1: just so immensely conflicting?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was really hard. The way I

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Speaker 2: did it was I would just try to be armed

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Speaker 2: with facts every time before I went on the air.

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Speaker 2: So I did a four hour weekend show, and I

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Speaker 2: just really mean, and it started at six am, So

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Speaker 2: I mean, from three am to six am, I would

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Speaker 2: just be with my producer trying to research the hell

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Speaker 2: out of every one of the topics that we would

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Speaker 2: be covering, or any of you that i'd be doing,

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Speaker 2: just so that I could you know, I knew that

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Speaker 2: we didn't have yet, I knew we had guests that

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Speaker 2: often fudged the facts. So I would try to be

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Speaker 2: armed to be able to say, actually, what the Bureau

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Speaker 2: of Labor Statistics says is this, you know? And I

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Speaker 2: would try to do that the best I could. But

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Speaker 2: I also felt badly for my producers because they knew

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Speaker 2: the same marching orders. And there are a ton of

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Speaker 2: I really liked the people at Fox. There are a

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Speaker 2: ton of good people at Fox. There are a ton

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Speaker 2: of people who are just trying to get a paycheck

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Speaker 2: and feed their families and pay their mortgage, and they

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Speaker 2: like they're willing to go along with the party line

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Speaker 2: because they have bigger fish to fry and they're at

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Speaker 2: lives and so I knew that they were having to

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Speaker 2: take the heat. You know, Roger ails would call into

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Speaker 2: the control room and say like, tell her to stop

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Speaker 2: saying that, or tell her to say this, and then

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Speaker 2: they would frantically get in my ear and tell me

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Speaker 2: to say something. I'm like, show me the facts and

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to say it. Bring me the facts and

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Speaker 2: I'll say it, and they would be like, Roger's gonna

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Speaker 2: call again. There was so much everybody was you know,

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Speaker 2: Roger ruled with an iron fist, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of fear with that kind of leadership. It's not collaborative.

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Speaker 2: So it was a challenge. It was definitely a challenge,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't always I don't want to pretend that

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Speaker 2: I always did it right. I didn't. There were definitely

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Speaker 2: times that I too echoed the talking points when I

401
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Speaker 2: didn't have all the facts buttoned up, or I just

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Speaker 2: wanted it to be easier and not have to be

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Speaker 2: called onto the carpet by Roger. So it's a challenge.

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Speaker 2: I mean, basically, it's what happens when you have, you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody with kind of tyrannical thinking and all the soldiers

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Speaker 2: fall online. I mean, it's funny how quickly you can

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Speaker 2: be co opted by that power structure.

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Speaker 1: Well, and we've just seen it historically over and over

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Speaker 1: and over again. So I think it is why it's

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Speaker 1: so important for us to talk about ways that we

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Speaker 1: figure out how to tell the truth. Has it been

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Speaker 1: an immense relief once I guess the culture Chok were

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Speaker 1: off move over to CNN? Is it a completely different ship?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know that even last year there was

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Speaker 1: some controversy about how it was supposedly moving more right

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Speaker 1: because of you know, whomever bought it. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I can't keep track of what corporations are you know,

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Speaker 1: overtaking what conglomerates anymore. But you're there, so can you

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Speaker 1: tell us what it's like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean basically, the wonderful thing about STANN is

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Speaker 2: that it's always fact based, so it doesn't matter which

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Speaker 2: boss comes in or comes out. I mean, obviously we

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Speaker 2: all have our favorites, and we all have the people

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Speaker 2: that we work well with, but the mission statement has

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Speaker 2: never changed. So you still follow the rules of journalism,

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Speaker 2: you still have your facts all shown up, you still

427
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Speaker 2: are fact checking. We have on staff fact checkers, we

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Speaker 2: have standards and practices and actual office that make sure

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Speaker 2: we're following the rules of journalism, which Box doesn't have,

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Speaker 2: and so all of that that was still in play

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Speaker 2: regardless of what whatever flucks you know, we're going through,

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00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 2: And so that is comforting, I mean, just to be

433
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 2: able to get back to the rules and never to

434
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: have any boss. I've now had three different bosses at CNN.

435
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: Ever have any boss call me and say like, no,

436
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: I want you to say it this way.

437
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: Wow, that is lovely to hear as a watcher of

438
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: the news. We'll be back in just a minute after

439
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: a few words from our favorite sponsors. What pressure do

440
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: you feel or is it just sort of something you

441
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: don't even notice anymore being the person who sits like

442
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: this across from us and delivers the news into our

443
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: homes every day. Does it uptick during an election year

444
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: or is that when everybody puts their heads down and

445
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: really cancels out the noise. I wonder what it's like

446
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 1: on the inside.

447
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 2: I think it's starting in about I got to see

448
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: it in twenty fourteen, and in fifteen when Donald Trump

449
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: started running, I really realized, like, oh good, my skills

450
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: of having to research every morning and make sure that

451
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: I'm totally spot on and have all the facts buttoned

452
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: up are really going to come in handy here, because

453
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, he would say so many contradictory things, and

454
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: so I already had the skill set to know if

455
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: I was interviewing him or one of his surrogates or

456
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: whoever was running. I mean, you know, I did the

457
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: same practice whether it was Hillary Clinton, whether it was

458
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: Ben Carson that I was interviewing, you know, And so

459
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: I felt very equipped by then to interview them. And

460
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: I certainly felt during COVID, I really felt my purpose.

461
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 2: You know, I felt the purpose every morning of us

462
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: as journalists being the first voice you hear, and I

463
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: knew that everybody was waking up and going, okay, how

464
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: many people have died, how many people are hospitalized? Hospitals

465
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: run out of beds, How close are we to a vaccine?

466
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: Is the FGG I get a fast track it? Like,

467
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 2: I knew that everybody was counting on us for real

468
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: important information every day. So even when I was tired,

469
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: I just felt For the past many years, ten nine years,

470
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: I have felt the you know, there were times in

471
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: my career where we would do some happy talk and

472
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: some you know, funny kickers and all this stuff and

473
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: I love that stuff, but the news has gotten really

474
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: serious in the past nine years, and I've definitely felt

475
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: kind of the responsibility that i have to the viewers.

476
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't say it's pressure. I would say it's purpose.

477
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: And that has been a good feeling.

478
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: That's so special. What what would you say, you know,

479
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: as the expert, what would you say to voters who

480
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: feel confused about what news outlets they can trust because

481
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: we have seen such a proliferic of misinformation. There are

482
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, targeted disinformation campaigns that people are spending a

483
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: whole lot of money on to try to confuse folks.

484
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: And you know, it really seems like the untruth travel

485
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: around the Internet very quickly, and it's very hard to

486
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: clean them up. So, you know, somebody who really knows

487
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: the inside baseball here, what would you say to folks

488
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: who are feeling scared about where to turn for trusted information?

489
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't blame them. It's really hard. It's a

490
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: delugege of information. It's too much information. It's like the

491
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: fire hose that people are drinking from every morning. And

492
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: don't blame them for not understanding which ones are legitimate,

493
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: which ones aren't. Legitimate I think is we're in a

494
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: really tough time right now. I mean, I try to

495
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: tell people you must go to a trusted news that

496
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: has a track record of winning journalism awards, of winning

497
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: Bulletzer Prize, of winning you know, the Edward R. Merrall Awards,

498
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: like they have a track record, and they you must

499
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: go to a place where if they get it wrong.

500
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: Because we're all human, so obviously we do get it

501
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: wrong sometimes. But one of the tenets of journalism is

502
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: you disclose it when you get it wrong, and you

503
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: apologize and you say responsibility. And Fox doesn't do that,

504
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: but the viewers don't know that because Fox doesn't report

505
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: that they had to pay the seven hundred and eighty

506
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: seven million two dominion, so your viewers don't know that.

507
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: So it's very, very hard to make inroads in those

508
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: silos because people don't understand that. And so I mean,

509
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: I in other words, it's not to me. It's not

510
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: about a political spectrum. You know, there are obviously more conservative,

511
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: excellent journalistic newspapers and places, and more progressive, but it's

512
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: just about which ones are fact based. But it's really

513
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: hard to feel I mean, we're living in a very

514
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: kind of surreal time, and it's dangerous and I don't

515
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: know how to get people to understand the difference in

516
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: some you know, craft pot website that they're looking at

517
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: versus real news right.

518
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: Well, and this is such a layer on top of

519
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: the already very draining experience of working in the media.

520
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 1: You know, you talk about purpose and that sort of fulfillment,

521
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: which is so beautiful, and it's tough. You know, when

522
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: you have to be on the air at six am,

523
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: so you're up at three, it shifts your whole life.

524
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: You know, what you're available for, what things you get

525
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: to participate in with your family or friends. It really

526
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: does become the thing your world has to revolve around.

527
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: So how do you recharge? How do you set boundaries?

528
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: You know, for yourself? As Alison before, you have to

529
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: then go up and be the person we turned to

530
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: for coverage.

531
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: When I was doing the morning show, which I did

532
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: for almost seven years at CNN, and I did it

533
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: for many many years before that at Fox, it was

534
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: really energetically hard for me. There are some people who

535
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: were mourning people. I'm not one of them.

536
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: Oh me neither.

537
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: It was really hard to be on my A game

538
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: and to have that much energy. So but I would

539
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: do it again because I do love my career and

540
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: I did feel the purpose of it. So when the

541
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: red light would go on at six in the morning,

542
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: I was present. I was there. We had lots of

543
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: I always looked for kind of the moment that broke

544
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: through the screen, you know, the moment of spontaneity, the

545
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: joke between my co anchor and me, the moment that

546
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: a guest said something that was so profound or that

547
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: was so news making or whatever. And there were each

548
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: show was riddled with those things. So I got a

549
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: lot of like sustenance, you know, from six am to

550
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: nine am, and then at nine oh one, I would

551
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: like stagger off the set and make it to my

552
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: office and fall like face first onto the sofa and

553
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: just sleep, like talk about the the underbelly, you know,

554
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: the the unglamorous side of what you were thinking about,

555
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: like movie making. If anybody came, I'm like sleeping, you know,

556
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: like on something with like full face of makeup, like

557
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: in my clothing, And that's how I would deal with it.

558
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I would just try to get the two hours of

559
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: sleep that I hadn't gotten at night, and then I

560
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: would be able to go home and be with my family,

561
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 2: but I never felt fully present, like fully energetically present

562
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: with my family. And so after you know, almost seven years,

563
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: it's in and I had to I just physically wanted

564
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: to stop, and I wanted to move to a different

565
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: day part in the afternoon because it's just really hard

566
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: for me. And so I don't know how, like you know,

567
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: the Katie Kirks of the world did it for so long.

568
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: It was it was It was a total ass kicker.

569
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some of your favorite memories when you

570
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: think back over the course of your career. What are

571
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: the things that jump to mind, you know, stories or

572
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: places you've traveled that still just make you feel excited.

573
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: Well, I did love the chemistry with my co hosts.

574
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: In general, I've really liked my co hosts and in general,

575
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: they've really made me laugh and there have been special

576
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: spontaneous moments and that you know, forges a real bond.

577
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: So John Berman and I did the morning show together,

578
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: and we you know, we still He'll he'll text me

579
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: one word and we'll laugh as directly because I know

580
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: exactly what he's talking about. Or I'll text him some

581
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: memory and we you know, we laugh like that's it's

582
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: because you're together, you know, so early in the morning.

583
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: It's a pretty intimate bond that you have these guys.

584
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: So I always enjoyed that. And then one of the

585
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: things that I really liked is that I got to

586
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: meet some of my childhood idols. You know, I had

587
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 2: the privilege of being able to interview some of these

588
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: guys who were on my wall in posters, you know,

589
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: growing up. And like if I could have told ten

590
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 2: year old Allison that she would be interviewing kiss you

591
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: know who I had the poster of in my bedroom,

592
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: I would have been so excited. And I was so excited,

593
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: Like when any of those guys, any of the people

594
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: that I admired from Afar as a child, came in,

595
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: I was giddy, basically, like David Cassidy, who you're too

596
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: young to know, but he was in the Partridge family

597
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: and he was a heart throb and he I loved

598
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: him so much. I was like skipping around him when

599
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 2: he came in. And it had been a few decades

600
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: since David Cassidy like a fangirl, like super fanning, and

601
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: he was I believe scared at my.

602
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is always a little hard when you have

603
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: those moments and you're like, I'm supposed to be cool

604
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: because I'm also on TV, but I can't be. No, Hello,

605
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: and now for our sponsors. So I love hearing the

606
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: personal anecdotes. It's so fun. How did you or maybe

607
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: how do you think about the differences between Alice and

608
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: the journalist and Alice and the author because you talk

609
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: about you know, I've read so many articles and watched

610
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: some interviews with you talking about what it was like

611
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: to write this memoir and combat love is so beautiful,

612
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: and you know you're not covering someone's story. This is

613
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: your story and it's so vulnerable and it's it's so important.

614
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: But how did you reconcile opening up like this? Do

615
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: you feel like your training as a journalist made you

616
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: ready for more of being exposed and sharing or is

617
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: it totally terrifying and exciting and you're learning as you go.

618
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for saying all that. I really appreciate

619
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: that it was at first terrifying. At first, the concept

620
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: of it was terrifying, So I knew I wanted to

621
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 2: write it because I felt that I had to write

622
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: it for my own closure, and I have a lot

623
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: of different pieces rattling around in my head from my

624
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: childhood and my teenage years that felt unfinished, and so

625
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: I knew that I wanted to write it and put

626
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: it in a timeline and have it chronologically make sense

627
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: to me and understand my own personal arc. But that's

628
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: a very different exercise than publishing it. So I write

629
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: it and I did that, and I at first was like,

630
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: you know, really scared that to publish it, because I thought,

631
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: who wants to see the diary pages of their anchor?

632
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: Like anchors in particular, I think are sort of neutered,

633
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: no it all. And so I thought, like, it's gross

634
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: if you peel back the curtain too far on your

635
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: news anchor, because as we all learned with Matt Lauer,

636
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: we don't want to know any sordid details of their

637
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: life and if they're imperfect, because the present can look

638
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: so seamless and as I said, polish. So I was

639
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: thinking that it wouldn't be a good idea, and then

640
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: I wrote it, and I just wrote, and I liked

641
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: that exercise of writing it, and it was helpful to me.

642
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: And as I said, with some news stories, some particularly intense,

643
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: painful news stories. I was asking people to be so

644
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: vulnerable with me, you know, and Vis Floyd was like

645
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: so just incredibly profoundly vulnerable and raw, and like I'm

646
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: asking out of people and I'm still keeping my mask

647
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 2: on and my trustee neutral stance. Yeah. I just at

648
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: some point thought, I think maybe the viewers can handle it.

649
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: I think maybe they will be able to handle that

650
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: their you know, polished anchor has a lot of blemishes

651
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 2: and a lot of a messy a messy pass that

652
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: has included some pain, and maybe it will even be

653
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: helpful in these divided times. Maybe they'll that'll be a

654
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: bridge somehow. And so I just I don't know. I

655
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: came to just trust the process more and think that

656
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: people would like it. And I'm really relieved at how

657
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: well it's been received, because it turns out that it

658
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: is a universal story, you know, to a survival story.

659
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody has some survival story. They look different,

660
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: but everybody has one, and it turns out that it's universal,

661
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: and that's been very comforting to me.

662
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way to put it,

663
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: a survival story because, as you mentioned earlier, particularly when

664
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: you become a public figure, nobody knows what it took

665
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: you to get there, and you know, learning that you

666
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: left home at sixteen, you'd have this really complicated relationship,

667
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: you know, with your mother, and that in many ways,

668
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: writing this book required you to to really sit down

669
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: and communicate about your family history. What was that like?

670
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: Because it sounds incredible and totally wild, what was what

671
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: was it like for you to go, Okay, mom, we

672
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: got to sit down and talk about this stuff.

673
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: It was hard, I mean it was hard. She was resistant.

674
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 2: My mother was born in nineteen forty. She's literally part

675
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: of something called the Silent Generation. So I'm Gen X,

676
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: she's the silent generation, and so now you know, we've

677
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 2: the pendulumt has song so far to you know, millennials

678
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: and gen Z that are quite open and confessional and everything.

679
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: But it's been a long time coming, you know, to

680
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 2: get there. The continuum was the other end for her.

681
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: So she really didn't want she was she was happy to,

682
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: not happy to. She was willing to talk to me

683
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: about it, but she certainly didn't want a lot of

684
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: it made public, and so it took us years to

685
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: try to get comfortable with that and to reconcile it.

686
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: But what my book also includes as a lot of

687
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: family secrets. You know, both my parents had family secrets

688
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: that they kept quiet about and so that it turns out,

689
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: did not help in parenting me. And it turns out

690
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: that you think you're keeping a secret, and you might

691
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: think that you've stuffed it down and it's all within you,

692
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: but it ends up having this, you know, these repercussions

693
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: on your children, whether you stated or not, something unconscious

694
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: happens generationally.

695
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And they.

696
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: Passed along these kind of confusing puzzle pieces to me

697
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: where there were pieces missing and I sensed as a

698
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: child something isn't quite right around here, but I don't

699
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: know what it is. There are puzzle pieces missing, and

700
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: I really didn't. I mean I didn't find out about

701
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 2: them until I was an adult, you know, until later

702
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: in life. And it would have been really helpful to

703
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 2: communicate actually about some of these things instead of having

704
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: family secrets.

705
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. So how do you learn to do that in

706
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: real time while you're writing a book. Did you have

707
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: like a great therapist. Did you have an editor who

708
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: was helping who helped you knew this?

709
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: Well, I've had a therapist. I mean, I have relied

710
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: on therapy, not all the time throughout my life, but

711
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 2: definitely at different hard times. And so I know enough

712
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: about therapy to know that it's helpful. And so when

713
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: I was going to be talking to my mom about this,

714
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to find a therapist for us

715
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: to talk this therapy.

716
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: That's great, because I.

717
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: Knew that there would be it would be better to

718
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: have a neutral third voice, you know, because mothers and

719
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: daughters have you know, can have fraught relationships regardless of

720
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: how close they are. My mother and I are close,

721
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: but I knew that that would help, and that did

722
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: really help. But I also just think that, you know,

723
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: I didn't write it until I had enough distance and

724
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: enough maturity and had my own kids and my teenagers,

725
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: and that helped too. You know, I couldn't obviously have

726
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: written this book at twenty and I didn't know these

727
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: twenty But in going back and excavating my life and

728
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: finding out about the secrets that my mother held and

729
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: my father held, it's actually given me, you know, tons

730
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: of closure. I mean, finding missing puzzle pieces is very healing.

731
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: And what I've been saying on book tour when I

732
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: go around to people is like, if there's a way

733
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: that you can find closure. I don't think you have

734
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: to write a memoir, but if you can find closure

735
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 2: with people, do it, because unfinished business will not at you.

736
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: You know, whether it's your parents, whether it's a sibling,

737
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: whether it's a past love, whether it's a friendship.

738
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: You know.

739
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: I'm just a big believer in tying up loose ends.

740
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: I think that that is a much more emotionally and

741
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 2: mentally healthier space.

742
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's really really good advice. And I imagine

743
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: these are things you learned in real time while writing

744
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: this was Was it a cathartic experience?

745
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, very It was very cathartic. It was very cathartic

746
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: to go back and put everything into some order for

747
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 2: me rather just floating around my head. And it was

748
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: cathartic to understand. Now as an adult woman, I have

749
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: a different perspective on my mother's choices. So my mother

750
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: moved me from you know what I considered the epicenter

751
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: of my universe Shrewsbury, New Jersey, to Bellingham, Washington, three

752
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: thousand miles away, where I knew no one and basically

753
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: on a whim. And I was very devastated and resentful

754
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: and you know now talking about it. So she was

755
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: forty one, she was looking for a new life. I

756
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: was fifteen, not looking for a new life at all,

757
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: very much to put down roots in my hometown. And so,

758
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 2: you know, I lived that with her, so I knew

759
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: the story basically, but going back as an adult woman

760
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: and talking to her about it, about the despair that

761
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: she was feeling and how trapped she was feeling, you know,

762
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: obviously it gave me a whole new perspective and that

763
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: has really help and her hearing you know why it

764
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: was so devastating to me, all of that has really

765
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 2: helped our relationship. And I'm very glad. I mean you've

766
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 2: probably heard me say this because I've said it a

767
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: lot on the book too, But my mother's one, you know,

768
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: request was can't you wait te Lo, I'm dead? That's

769
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 2: what she kept saying. Well, I was writing it, can't

770
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: you wage long dead? And I'm so glad I did

771
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: not wait till she was dead, because she ended up

772
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: being really helpful in putting the pieces together.

773
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: That's so cool. You talk a lot in the book

774
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: about the power of music in your life, and you know,

775
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: you just were mentioning being the ten year old with

776
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: the kiss poster on your wall. How how did music

777
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: influence you as you were writing this. Were there certain

778
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: artists you listened to or were you going back and

779
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: like listening to every artist from the time period of

780
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: the stories you were working on? What was that part

781
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: of the journey.

782
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: Music is so transportative to me that I had to

783
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: be very careful with what I listened to while I

784
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: was writing it, because it's so evocative that if I

785
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: put on a song from a different era, like if

786
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 2: I played something from the nineties while I was writing

787
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: about nineteen eighty one, it wouldn't help. And if I

788
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: played something from the summer in New Jersey of nineteen

789
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: eighty two, but I was writing about the winter of Bellingham,

790
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: it would like, you know, scramble my central nervous system.

791
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: And so I and furthermore, I didn't want to dilute.

792
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes if you hear a song over and

793
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: over and over again, the evocativeness gets a little diluted.

794
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: And so with Shrapnel. So Shrapnel is the band that

795
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: I fell in love when I was thirteen. They were

796
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 2: a local punk rock band. There were just the coolest

797
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: guys in the world. And it's very hard to hear

798
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: a Shrapnel song because they you know, we didn't have

799
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: the internet then and they don't on Spotify, and it's

800
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: very hard to hear it. But I found on Facebook

801
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: some cassette tapes from live shows of theirs, and I

802
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: kept it. I knew it would be Panderdora's box if

803
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: I played it, so I kept it in my cabinet

804
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: for four or five years until I was ready to

805
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 2: write about it, because I knew that it would be

806
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: like an instant time machine for me. And it's so funny.

807
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: The book is called Combat Love. That was Shrapnel's first single,

808
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: and when I hear it, I just I just heard it.

809
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: They played it last night at a book event and

810
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: I I mean, I hear it once, you know, every

811
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: ten years, and I just heard it. And this is

812
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: how they started the book event. I was at like

813
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: a book talk and I was like, excuse me, I

814
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 2: need to compose myself again like they played it. I couldn't.

815
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: Like I became like undone, you know, hearing the song again.

816
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: So I had to be very careful with music because

817
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: it's a real like pure signal for me, and I

818
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: didn't want to screw around with it. While I was writing,

819
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: I could only listen to specific things.

820
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, does music serve as that sort of

821
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: transportational device for you when you're reporting as well?

822
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: I mean yes, Like when I was doing the morning

823
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: show at CNN. Every morning I would come out and

824
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: the guys the crew would be playing a song that

825
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: they either knew really bummed me out because we had

826
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: a joke. They love Rush, and I no girl likes rush.

827
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: Rush is like it's like what a dog whistle is

828
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: to a dog. Like you can't play girls don't understand rush.

829
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: It doesn't it's our ears aren't made for it. So

830
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: they would play that because they knew that it like

831
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: got my goat and they thought it was hilarious. So

832
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: they would either play that or they would play one

833
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: of my old like Kiss. Sometimes, you know, one of

834
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: the camera guys would play Kiss for me, or he'd

835
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: play the Scorpions because he knew that that was one

836
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: of the songs from Bellingham that I listened to, And

837
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 2: so I would have to say to them, like, guys,

838
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 2: I have to focus, yeah, making time travel right now,

839
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: Like I can't be in high school mindset to like

840
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: turn it off for a second, and so that was

841
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 2: yes for sure, Like I yeah, I'm I'm susceptible to music,

842
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: very susceptible.

843
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: That's so cool. Well, you know you're traveling obviously and

844
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: talking about the book. How are the book events going?

845
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: Are you enjoying it so much?

846
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 2: So much there, It's just it's really fun to be

847
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: able to go out in the world and to talk

848
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 2: about this. And what's really funny is that you know

849
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: some publishers who who didn't want the book, you know

850
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: who read the book. They liked my writing, they liked me,

851
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: but they weren't willing to take a risk on the

852
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: book because they said, we don't think. We don't believe

853
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: that like your news fans, your viewers will follow you

854
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: for like a punk rock teenage story. We don't see

855
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: the connection and what has And I believe them. I thought, Okay,

856
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: I understand, it's off brand. I get it. This is

857
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: not the typical journalism story. And then what's happened is

858
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: that I in traveling around the country. I was just

859
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: in California for a couple of days, in San Francisco

860
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: and in Los Angeles with women primarily my age. What

861
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: they could they are they connect with it because it's

862
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: not really about a punk rock band. It's about a

863
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: coming of age story and when you are going to

864
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: decide that you're going to go your own way, regardless

865
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: of what your parents had set up for you, and

866
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,919
Speaker 2: how you're going to survive by going your own way.

867
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: And like I said, you know, it's a story of

868
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: obstacles and survival. And I've just realized everybody has that,

869
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: So everybody is taking some piece of the book and

870
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: being able to relate to it. So I'm very heartened that,

871
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: you know, it ends up being a universal story.

872
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I often think about how it's the specific that

873
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: is universal. It's the way we see ourselves and things,

874
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: not because the details match, but because the feelings line up.

875
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I didn't really understand that until now.

876
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: You know. Like, for instance, I recently read Janet McCurdy's

877
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, best selling So Good, and I didn't have

878
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: I never had an eating disorder. I don't relate to that.

879
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: Do I relate to her wanting to always please her

880
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: mother and perform for her mother, and her mother being

881
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: this larger than life magnetic character. Yes, I do. So

882
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: the book spoke to me, you know, yeah, so I

883
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: now I get that the specifics are just the authenticity

884
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: of the book, but there are larger themes that we

885
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: all relate to.

886
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so special. So when you sit from this point,

887
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's such a big thing to put a

888
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: book out in the world, and you look at the

889
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 1: year ahead and it's it's a big moment for you personally,

890
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: and we are in an election year. There's just there's

891
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: an awful lot going on for us, you know, from

892
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: the micro to the macro. What feels like your work

893
00:51:58,840 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: in progress for.

894
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: Well, that's really interesting. I think that what happens when

895
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: you put out a book, you never know where it's

896
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: going to go. You never know. A book takes on

897
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: its own trajectory and its own life, and books open

898
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: doors that you couldn't have imagined. There are calling card

899
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: in some way to just get you into you know,

900
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: like being able to talk to you like, that's wonderful.

901
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: That's a calling card that I wouldn't have known a

902
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: month ago, and that's wonderful and so delightful. And so

903
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: the work in progress for me is like I don't

904
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: feel I've ridden that out, you know, like I'm still

905
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 2: on the cusp of this wave of seeing where it leads,

906
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 2: and I'm really enjoying that process. And in terms of

907
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: the news, you know, I've lived this movie before of

908
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 2: this election, and I don't want to repeat the lessons

909
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: that we learned the last time. I mean, I feel

910
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: like this calls for a new way of thinking, a

911
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: new way of framing. I haven't fastened upon that yet,

912
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: but I just know that we've learned a lot, so

913
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to. I don't want to

914
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 2: repeat old mistakes or old patterns with how I report

915
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: the news. I want to really talk about the stakes,

916
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: you know, I want to talk about I think that

917
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: sometimes in an election year, we get focused on the

918
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: horse race, we get focused on the excitement of it.

919
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: But this time around, I really want us to mostly

920
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 2: talk about the stakes. And so that's what I'm trying

921
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 2: to focus on.

922
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: That's really great. That feels like a good place for

923
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: us all to meet, I hope, so I mean too,

924
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much us And this has just been

925
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 1: so cool.

926
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sophia, It's so great to talk to you.

927
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for understanding the book and reading the book and

928
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: just you know, being so relatable. I really appreciate that.

929
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing it

930
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: with us.