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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought

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Speaker 1: to you absolutely free. But if you want at free

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Speaker 1: listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus

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Speaker 1: dot com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: And we're back Talking to Death. You're listening to that.

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Speaker 1: If you're an up and vantish listener and you migrated,

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Speaker 1: thank you for coming. This will be I think very

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Speaker 1: interesting for you. And if you have no clue what

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Speaker 1: up in Vantish it is, I think that's kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: But I'm glad that you're still listening to this show.

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Speaker 1: Episode three of Up and Vanish just came out and

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Speaker 1: it's got some new revelations in it. And like I

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Speaker 1: said last time, it's hard for me to even think

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Speaker 1: objectively and zoom out and like answer what I think

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Speaker 1: anyone would even want to know. So Dylan, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: kick it to you because you just listened to the

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Speaker 1: episode and you tell me what stands out as Like

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Speaker 1: an objective listener, you think, whow.

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Speaker 3: What an action packed episode this one was? It was crazy,

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Speaker 3: you know, start to finish, it's there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: information there. You talk to a lot of different kinds

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Speaker 3: of people. This episode deals really heavily with law enforcement,

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Speaker 3: all these different departments of you know, police and state

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Speaker 3: troopers and private investigators and city hall. I mean, what

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Speaker 3: was your take on, you know, not only dealing with

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Speaker 3: these people but collecting all the information and presenting it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, how how was that for you?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at all the other seasons

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Speaker 1: of Up and Vanished, I mean, maybe not so much

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Speaker 1: with season one because of that was a wildly different story,

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Speaker 1: but for the most part season two three other shows

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Speaker 1: I've been a part of getting Gone, there really isn't

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Speaker 1: ever some super strong narrative about the police being corrupt

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Speaker 1: or blat not doing their job. And it's just a

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Speaker 1: thing that gets thrown around a lot in true crime

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Speaker 1: documentaries that you know, the police aren't doing their job,

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Speaker 1: they didn't do it, or they did it themselves or whatever,

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Speaker 1: And so I never really have bought too much into

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Speaker 1: that in the cases that I've been a part of,

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Speaker 1: because it wasn't necessarily true. Now, Tara Grinstead season one,

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Speaker 1: there was proof that there was a tip that was

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Speaker 1: submitted back in two thousand and five, you know, not

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Speaker 1: too long after Tara went missing. That was in the

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Speaker 1: case file, and so there was some real proof to

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Speaker 1: the fact that it wasn't investigated to the fullest degree,

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Speaker 1: and you could look at that as the reason why

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Speaker 1: it went unsolved for ten plus years. Right. But in

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Speaker 1: the other cases, for the most part, I've had pretty

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Speaker 1: good relationships with law enforcement, which I've appreciated, you know,

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Speaker 1: Season two, Crystal Risinger, the Colorado a Bureau of Investigation

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Speaker 1: has always been awesome, even the county Sheriff's been great.

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Speaker 1: Season three. Locally, we never made that much contact, but

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Speaker 1: we were able to establish a relationship with the FBI

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Speaker 1: through that, and though they were hesitant at first, they

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Speaker 1: ended up going on record with us and actually having

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Speaker 1: a conversation about how they handle cases like that and

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Speaker 1: let us actually ask them questions about it. All that

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Speaker 1: to say to me, this is the first time that

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Speaker 1: I've ever really strongly felt like the police are a

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Speaker 1: major problem in this case. And I'm not saying it

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Speaker 1: in the way of just pointing the finger like you

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Speaker 1: didn't do your job, I could do better. It's literally

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Speaker 1: not at all what I'm trying to say I'm just

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Speaker 1: saying that I think if you're trying to break down

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Speaker 1: why Florence ocpiologis disappearance remains unsolved, I think it is

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Speaker 1: extreme incompetence from the known police department to the point

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Speaker 1: where it makes you wonder what else is going on.

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Speaker 1: I get that it's a hard place to live. I

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Speaker 1: get that there are a lack of resources, But what

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Speaker 1: I don't get is that one of those resources is

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Speaker 1: the FBI. And I have had email correspondence with the FBI,

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Speaker 1: and they've told me that this case belongs to the

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Speaker 1: non police department. Therefore they weren't even going to comment

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Speaker 1: on it. To me, if you try to ask any

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Speaker 1: question to the nome PD one they don't want to answer.

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Speaker 1: And anything I've heard from anyone who has gotten through

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Speaker 1: to them, it's as if they don't take it seriously

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Speaker 1: or even act like it's a case of theirs at all.

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Speaker 1: And having looked into this for almost a year now,

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Speaker 1: I strongly believe that in the early days especially, it

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Speaker 1: was a lack of care and effort and just investigative work,

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Speaker 1: basic investigative work that allowed this case to get to

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Speaker 1: the point that it is today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting thing you said about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the jurisdiction between the FBI and nome PD. This might

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Speaker 3: be a case where the boundary between these jurisdictions is

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Speaker 3: allowing a crack to form, and it seems like this

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Speaker 3: case and probably a lot of other cases, tend to

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Speaker 3: just fall through the crack. What do you have to

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Speaker 3: say about these jurisdictional lines.

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Speaker 1: Me if you remember what Andy Clams or the private

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Speaker 1: investigator said in this episode, he mentioned that the Known

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Speaker 1: Police Department has always been pretty disorganized, and you hear

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Speaker 1: what Sue's talking about. It's like a revolving door of

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Speaker 1: of new people in and out. They never really seem

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Speaker 1: to keep a police chief for very long. And the

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Speaker 1: way that it works, from my understanding, is that if

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Speaker 1: the Known Police Department wants assistance, then they can request

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Speaker 1: that from the FBI, and the FBI will come from

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Speaker 1: Anchorage to help out, but only if they request it,

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Speaker 1: or in I guess, if there was some other scenario

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Speaker 1: where the FBI felt that there was something nefarious going

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Speaker 1: on or something and was doing their own investigation into it.

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Speaker 1: So they did do that one time in the first

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks after Florence went missing. They did request

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Speaker 1: help from the FBI to help search, and they came

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Speaker 1: out for a couple of days, and to my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: they've never been back since then. But that's because they

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Speaker 1: were never asked to come back. And I think what's

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Speaker 1: happened is the FBI has never come back because they

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Speaker 1: didn't think they needed their help or weren't considering that,

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Speaker 1: and the nome PD never asked for help, but also

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Speaker 1: never did anything either.

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Speaker 3: We touched on it in the episode, but NUMPD has

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Speaker 3: a very long history of mismanagement.

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Speaker 1: Well, they've also killed a girl before, and this isn't

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Speaker 1: the same people. So I'm not going to, you know,

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Speaker 1: make that kind of None of the people who work

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Speaker 1: there now were there or a part of that, right,

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Speaker 1: But if you're working for a department that has a

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Speaker 1: dark history like that where one of your former officers

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Speaker 1: murdered a Native woman, then I would just I would

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Speaker 1: think if I was ever a police chief there, that

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Speaker 1: one of my primary goals outside of serving and protecting

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Speaker 1: right would be to regain the trust of the community,

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Speaker 1: because the people before me totally broke it right, And

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Speaker 1: from what I've seen and who people I've talked to,

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Speaker 1: and the way they've been to us, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like that matters at all or has ever been a

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Speaker 1: factor to them.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I want to mention is I

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Speaker 4: think this weirdly goes two different ways. I think a

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Speaker 4: big thing might be that the Nome Police Department I

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Speaker 4: don't think they're prepared to handle a homicide investigation. I

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Speaker 4: don't think they have the tools or experience to do that.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's weird that the ABI or FBI

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Speaker 4: has given them responsibility over this case when I think

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Speaker 4: the FBI is better suited to investigate a homicide and

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Speaker 4: interrogate these people and do these I don't think. No,

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Speaker 4: it's a small town. Any small town is never historically

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Speaker 4: good at investigating a homicide.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that where the case stands today,

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Speaker 1: that is one hundred percent true. They don't have the

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Speaker 1: resources to solve this now. I think they did have

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Speaker 1: the resources to solve it then, because it didn't They

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Speaker 1: didn't find anything from the search anyway. But there were people,

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Speaker 1: there were names, there were persons of interest that to

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Speaker 1: my knowledge and until proven wrong, and I've looked very hard,

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Speaker 1: and I would love to be surprised by this and

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Speaker 1: find out that it actually is true. But to my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: they've never even interrogated any person of interest in this case,

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Speaker 1: even the person who had her thanks. And so you

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Speaker 1: missed the opportunity to potentially solve this. You let a

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Speaker 1: case get cold because you didn't do what I think

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Speaker 1: are basic steps in investigating anything. And I think that

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Speaker 1: because it was missed then and by different people, they

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Speaker 1: set the nome PD up for future failure. And now

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Speaker 1: it's in a place where if you have persons of

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Speaker 1: interest that are way long gone in other far away places, yeah,

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Speaker 1: no shit, you don't have the resource resources to do that.

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Speaker 1: We've been met with that same challenge, and it's hard

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Speaker 1: for us when it's our full time focus and we

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Speaker 1: don't have to do their day to day and so

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Speaker 1: I understand how it would be almost near impossible now.

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Speaker 1: But that signals to me that they should be more

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Speaker 1: open and willing to cooperate and just be an open book,

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Speaker 1: especially if you weren't the ones who were there beforehand.

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Speaker 1: But there's a there's an ego, there's a there's all

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Speaker 1: the bad shit that you could read about some cops,

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Speaker 1: not all cops, but some cops, all the fucking markings

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Speaker 1: of that are here.

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Speaker 3: If by some chance this episode makes its way back

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Speaker 3: to Nome PD and someone's listening, do you have a

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Speaker 3: message for them, something you'd like them to hear.

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Speaker 1: I'm open to talk at any time. I realize that

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Speaker 1: you don't want to, that's okay. It was never my

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Speaker 1: plan or intention to have some gotcha moment with you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to point the finger at anybody. And

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Speaker 1: like I said before, none of you were really even

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Speaker 1: there when this happened, so it's not even possible for

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Speaker 1: me to do that. But I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: when I had that first conversation with Crockett a long

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Speaker 1: time ago, now, I tried to even tape that you

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Speaker 1: didn't hear because I cut it out. I was telling

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Speaker 1: him about the resources that I thought I could help

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Speaker 1: give to them for them to use, and I just

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Speaker 1: there was no interest in doing that.

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Speaker 3: So Nome PDE, they're not the only sheriffs in town,

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Speaker 3: so to say, Also, Alaska State troopers are a big deal.

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Speaker 3: There both exist on Front Street right there in Nome.

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Speaker 3: They each have their own department, they're own office space.

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Speaker 3: Maybe this is a good transition to start talking about

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Speaker 3: Joseph Balderas, because Joseph's case is under the purview of AST,

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Speaker 3: how is it dealing with them and what's your take

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Speaker 3: on them?

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Speaker 1: So, because Joseph went missing way outside of town, right,

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Speaker 1: it was miles and miles outside of the actual downtown city.

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Speaker 1: So Flow went missing on West Beach, and that's pretty

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Speaker 1: close to the downtown area of Nome, and that's within

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Speaker 1: the Gnome police jurisdiction. Cases that are out in the

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Speaker 1: wildlife frontier of Alaska, way outside of the city, those

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Speaker 1: are cases that automatically get assigned to the Alaska State

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Speaker 1: Troopers from what I've gathered. And so because Joseph likely

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Speaker 1: went missing out there, or at least it appears that

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Speaker 1: he did. His truck was found out there, it appears

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Speaker 1: to be the last place he was unless something else happened.

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Speaker 1: But on the surface, this would be a case that

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Speaker 1: the Alaska's Troopers would take on because of that. And

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Speaker 1: so I did have a brief conversation with a trooper

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Speaker 1: who works in Nome at the office there. I think

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Speaker 1: you guys were both there when we did that, and

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Speaker 1: she was, you know, she was open enough, more of

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Speaker 1: a conversation than we ever had with anyone at nome PD,

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Speaker 1: but it seemed to me like Joseph's case specifically, they

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Speaker 1: had completely wrapped up and decided that it was a bear,

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Speaker 1: even though we can't prove it was in the end.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that I know what it is

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Speaker 1: or not, but Andy Klamser has shared with me a

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Speaker 1: lot more details about his disappearance that weren't included in

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Speaker 1: the podcast episode in episode three yet, and there are

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Speaker 1: just some major onion are questions that you just can't ignore,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to get to that actually later on

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Speaker 1: in the series. It comes back. I guess I could

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Speaker 1: just say this now, but we've been working with Andy

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Speaker 1: really ever since that first meeting with him, and he's

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Speaker 1: been a huge help for Florence's investigation and kind of

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Speaker 1: just navigating Alaska to begin with. And the dude has

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Speaker 1: so many resources and expertise. He's he was an Alaska

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Speaker 1: cop detective for twenty plus years, so he's an ex

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Speaker 1: cop and he gets it, and so I really put

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Speaker 1: a lot of credence into what he says. And he

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Speaker 1: has literally hundreds of pages of investigative work and interviews

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Speaker 1: and tape with people in Joseph's case, that he's given us,

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Speaker 1: and we've scoured for months and there are just some

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Speaker 1: major unanswered questions in there that you cannot ignore. And

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Speaker 1: the more I look into it, the fact that they

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Speaker 1: never found anything to me, like they didn't find his

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Speaker 1: backpack or a phone or a piece of clothing or whatever. Right,

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Speaker 1: just thinking logically, if he left his truck and walked

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Speaker 1: out there to the river, how far could someone actually go,

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Speaker 1: like within reason, right, how far could you have possibly gone.

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Speaker 1: There's gotta be like a finite radius of what that is.

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Speaker 1: And they searched that and searched way beyond that with dogs.

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Speaker 1: It's like he just wasn't there. If he is there

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Speaker 1: and they didn't find him, that would be tragic, But

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Speaker 1: it is so odd that they didn't, and I'd love

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Speaker 1: to search again. But that, coupled with a few of

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Speaker 1: the stories about the roommate, which we'll get into later

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Speaker 1: on in the series, just makes me think that there's

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Speaker 1: something else going on, and it starts to look and

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Speaker 1: smell a lot like Florence's disappearance.

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Speaker 3: Really, so Andy gives you a really hot tip near

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Speaker 3: the end of the episode. He tells you that it

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Speaker 3: may be worth instead of reaching out to NONPD to

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Speaker 3: no avail. It may be worth overstepping them and going

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Speaker 3: straight to the city manager at city Hall to get

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Speaker 3: the information you're looking for. How useful of a tip

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Speaker 3: was that.

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Speaker 1: I mean it worked. Props to Andy because that I

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Speaker 1: did not think that was going to work. I had

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Speaker 1: lost faith in everything after that first exchange with NONPD,

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Speaker 1: but Dan it worked. Then we got an email again

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Speaker 1: saying that we're denied even though we've already been sent this.

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Speaker 1: So either they got their wires crossed and thought that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't sent, or the person who sent it didn't

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Speaker 1: say that they sent it and pretended like they didn't,

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Speaker 1: or they changed their mind and talked to non PD

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Speaker 1: or whoever it was and wanted to basically say, even

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Speaker 1: though you have this, you can't have it. But that's

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Speaker 1: not how it works in the real world. And we

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Speaker 1: do have it, and I'm glad that we do because

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Speaker 1: I don't think that that information is being used appropriately

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Speaker 1: anywhere else right now, so I'd rather put it to

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Speaker 1: good use. So they're saying that there is an active

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Speaker 1: and ongoing investigation into the matter of Oregon John.

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Speaker 4: When they've never mentioned or named a suspect ever.

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Speaker 1: Now we're making the jump and assumption that they're referring

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Speaker 1: to Florence Ocpiolos case. And there's a long list of

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Speaker 1: things on that report.

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Speaker 3: Actually missing person is on there that he was that

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Speaker 3: was never talked about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll get into that in the next episode.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you now. But I mean, there's ninety three

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Speaker 1: incidents on that report, and I wasn't about to read

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Speaker 1: all ninety three of them for you. I just went

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Speaker 1: from the bottom, which would be back to starting in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, which is when I believe he moved there,

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Speaker 1: and I just started rattling off, going up the list

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Speaker 1: closer and closer to twenty twenty. All the major charges

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Speaker 1: that to me stood out like they were a problem.

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Speaker 1: There's other incidents in there that are lesser offenses or

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Speaker 1: even some exchanges that I don't really fully understand what

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Speaker 1: it was because they don't really unpack it all the way.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of trying to understand the kind of

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Speaker 1: person that you may be dealing with, I read off

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Speaker 1: in order going closer and closer to the date that

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Speaker 1: Flora disappeared. And we'll get into this more in the

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Speaker 1: next episode and further on the series. But when this

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Speaker 1: was the main thing that I had on this person,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't help but analyze it. And there was a

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Speaker 1: pattern I sort of saw where the closer you got

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Speaker 1: to the date of Florence's disappearance in late August, there

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Speaker 1: is a genuine, very real uptick in his run ends

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Speaker 1: with the law. It just seems to get more and

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Speaker 1: more and more and worse and worse. And then on

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Speaker 1: the day she went missing, day after, there are two

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Speaker 1: reports or two incident reports, and they're just little log

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Speaker 1: lines and it has the names of the officers and

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Speaker 1: there's two different officers and all it says is missing person,

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Speaker 1: so missing person, missing person, meaning that he was interacted

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Speaker 1: with by the known PD in relation to Flow's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: To my knowledge, that is the extent of what they've

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Speaker 1: done investigating Oregon. John. I hope that isn't true, but

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Speaker 1: I've never heard about any sort of legitimate interrogation. I

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Speaker 1: think that what we're looking at in that document is it.

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Speaker 3: What can people expect from episode four? Can you give

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Speaker 3: us any little tidbits?

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Speaker 1: So far? The narrative has been going really just one way,

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Speaker 1: and to me, to me, that's always interesting whether it's

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Speaker 1: me watching a true crime documentary or listening to a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast, or investigating a real true crime myself.

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Speaker 1: When all things start pointing in one direction really so quickly,

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Speaker 1: it makes you want to step back and reevaluate and

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Speaker 1: make sure that there's not just a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: biases here that are sending you this direction, and that

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Speaker 1: it is correct. Then there's the other part of me

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Speaker 1: that comes out that really, truly to my core, believes

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Speaker 1: that I think a majority of the time it's always

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Speaker 1: the simplest answer. Not every time, but a majority of

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Speaker 1: the time. Maybe that's fifty one percent. But in my

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Speaker 1: experiences and what I believe my opinion is that sometimes

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Speaker 1: if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck,

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Speaker 1: it's just a duck man. And in this case, it

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Speaker 1: sent us directly to Oregon. John. Now in episode four,

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Speaker 1: we here for the first time another theory, new names emerge.

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Speaker 1: It starts to paint a picture, a clearer picture of

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Speaker 1: what may have transpired that night, But John is still

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Speaker 1: in that picture. My guest today is Sarah Turney. She is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the strongest people I've ever met,

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Speaker 1: and I don't mean physical strength. I mean, she might

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Speaker 1: be physically stronger than me too. That's that's probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. What she's endured in her life is

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Speaker 1: almost uncomparable, and the way that she holds herself and

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Speaker 1: what she's been able to create out of what she's

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Speaker 1: experienced in her life is just tremendous. I admire it

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Speaker 1: so much. And if you don't know much about her story,

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Speaker 1: we get all the way into it in today's episode. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: she believes that her father killed her sister, and there

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Speaker 1: is a moun of evidence to support that. This has

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Speaker 1: been a huge part of her life, obviously, and she

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Speaker 1: has turned this experience into very popular true crime podcasts

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Speaker 1: and doing it in a way that is more respectful

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Speaker 1: than pretty much anyone out there. I'd say because of

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Speaker 1: her experience, she has a special connection with these families

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Speaker 1: and she can talk to them on a level that

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Speaker 1: almost no one else in the world could, and she's

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Speaker 1: taken that and turned it into some of the best

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Speaker 1: storytelling and positive impact being made in this genre. She

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Speaker 1: has a new podcast that's out now that has been

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Speaker 1: crushing it on the charts. It's called Media Pressure. It's

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Speaker 1: hosted by Julie Murray, the sister of Mora Murray who

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Speaker 1: went missing twenty years ago now, and she too, is

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Speaker 1: absolutely phenomenal. I was humbled that she wanted to even

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Speaker 1: be on this show, and I had a really enjoyable

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Speaker 1: conversation with her. And I also just love how she

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Speaker 1: can be so relatable in every way possible to almost anybody.

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Speaker 1: And we talk a lot about our feelings about true

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Speaker 1: crime podcasts and you know, when you get down to it,

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Speaker 1: what it really takes to do this, and we had

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Speaker 1: some shared experiences in that, and also we had a

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Speaker 1: really fun night afterwards. I think Dylan still has a headache.

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Speaker 3: I remember most of that night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right exactly. I know you'll love this interview. And

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Speaker 1: please check out our new podcast, Media Pressure that's out

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Speaker 1: now and her other podcast voices for.

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Speaker 5: Justice check one.

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Speaker 1: Be rolling. Okay, Oh we're rolling. You just keep going. Yeah,

380
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Speaker 1: with your dad, that's how was that?

381
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Speaker 2: Uh intense for sure? But this time I was ready.

382
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Speaker 2: So I'd met with him in the past, but I

383
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Speaker 2: kind of just went there asking questions. I didn't really

384
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Speaker 2: have anything prepared, and this time I had a whole

385
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Speaker 2: list of questions, including like quotes from him. So I

386
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Speaker 2: thought I was pretty good. I think it's the closest

387
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Speaker 2: thing to like a cross examination that we'll ever get.

388
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Speaker 5: Wow.

389
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Speaker 1: So was he a willing to participant in this?

390
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Speaker 5: Oh?

391
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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? He was so excited.

392
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Speaker 1: He does.

393
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Speaker 2: He does everything he can now to talk about Alissa.

394
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Speaker 1: Why is that?

395
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Speaker 5: I don't know.

396
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Speaker 2: I think it's maybe because he thinks that he's fretting clear,

397
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Speaker 2: But he certainly never did media when we needed it.

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And how do you feel about that part of it?

399
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Speaker 5: I don't know.

400
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Speaker 2: It's like, it's just him, you know what I mean,

401
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: It's it's everything I anticipated. He's just always been this way.

402
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 2: He's just not a good person.

403
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: So really you're not even surprised by him at all anymore?

404
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: No, No, wow, No, You're like, what did you do

405
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: on Tuesday? And he's like, well, the war on drugs?

406
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: What you need to understand about that? And it's just

407
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: it's the same.

408
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: Drug I know he's watching too much Fox News or something.

409
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: He is one hundred percent watching too much Fox News. Yeah,

410
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: it's just the same shit I heard growing up.

411
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Speaker 1: You know, there will be some people who are listening

412
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: to this who don't know your story, and I'd like

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Speaker 1: to just recap it a little bit for those who

414
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Speaker 1: may not have heard about this before. What happened to

415
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Speaker 1: your family?

416
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll keep it brief.

417
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Speaker 1: Obviously, we could do entire ten episodes if.

418
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Speaker 2: We'd like, I know, right, a new season.

419
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 5: Yeah.

420
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Speaker 2: So twenty and one, I was twelve, my sister was seventeen.

421
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Speaker 2: Her name is Alyssa Turney. And it was the last

422
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Speaker 2: day of school for both of us. I come home

423
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Speaker 2: and she's not there, and she's been missing ever since.

424
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Speaker 2: I became the police Content Act when I was a teenager,

425
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: and eventually they sat me down and said, we think

426
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: your dad killed your sister. We can't do anything. Your

427
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: best chance is to get media, and that's why I'm

428
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 2: in true crime today. I had no luck with major media,

429
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: big outlets. I only had luck with independent content creators, podcasters, YouTubers,

430
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: and then eventually I was encouraged to make my own

431
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: content and I did eventually. In twenty twenty, my dad

432
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Speaker 2: was arrested and unfortunately last year he was acquitted.

433
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Speaker 1: So the police told you that they think he did it, Yeah,

434
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: and we just can't do anything about it.

435
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, at first they told me that they

436
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: were going to arrest him. Because my father's also a

437
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: domestic terrorist, which is insane. Like the story is just

438
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 2: the it's the more you go into it, the crazier

439
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: it is. But yeah, he was arrested in twenty ten.

440
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, twenty two thousand and eight. It's been so long.

441
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: He was arrested for basically like the biggest pipe bomb

442
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: and gun bust in Phoenix history, which was a surprise

443
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 2: to me. I was going to college and the bombs

444
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: were like one hundred feet from my head.

445
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: WHOA.

446
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he served about ten years for that, and

447
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: the police said, well, when he gets out for that,

448
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: like the second he gets out, we're going to arrest

449
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: him for your sister's murder. We don't want to arrest

450
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: him now or charge him with anything because he'll be

451
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: able to serve the sentences side by side basically. So

452
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: they told me they were going to and then they

453
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: told me that they weren't.

454
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: So in your opinion, what went wrong here? What are

455
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: the key things that went wrong to end up where

456
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: we are today?

457
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, I think that first day that my

458
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: sister went missing, everything was wrong. Not a single police

459
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: officer came to our house. I wasn't interviewed for seven years.

460
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: Just about nobody was. There was no investigation for almost

461
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: a decade, and of course in that time they lost

462
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: everything cell phone records, text logs, video surveillance, they just

463
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: lost it all. And then by the time we got

464
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: to court, it's my opinion that the state was really

465
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: so wrapped up in an their case that they had

466
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: just finished. It was actually the Brian Patrick Miller serial

467
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: killer case. And then they finally said, just a few

468
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: weeks before trial, well, now we have time to allocate

469
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: to Alyssa's case. And when we finally started talking about details,

470
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: kept being I kept being told, well, it's too late.

471
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 5: Now.

472
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: That would have been great, but we can't admit that

473
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: as evidence because it's too late.

474
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Like what what's too late? Yeah? I mean, like, which

475
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: part of it was too late for them?

476
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 5: Yeah?

477
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: All these statements that I'd brought upments were too late. Yeah,

478
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: And I'd brought these things up three years, Like the

479
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: second my dad was arrested, I was like, here's everything

480
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: I have. How can I help and try to tell

481
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: them all these things? And they didn't want to really

482
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: talk to me until just a few weeks before trial.

483
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: So even one of my dad's ex wives came forward

484
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: and wanted to talk about her being sexually abused by him.

485
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: He's been accused by at least four women of sexual

486
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: abuse dating back to the seventies, and it was things

487
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: like that. They were like, it's too late.

488
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: It's just hard for me to fathom that it wouldn't

489
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: be a bigger deal at that time that this young

490
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: girl's missing. How did that happen?

491
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: I think it was a few different factors. One, Phoenix

492
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: is huge, where the fifth largest city in the United States.

493
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: Our police force has almost no funding. But on top

494
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: of that, more importantly, my dad used to be a

495
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: cop in the nineteen seventies, and so while he was

496
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: telling the whole family that he was super afraid for

497
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: my sister, that he thought something really bad happened. Right

498
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: away he called the police and said, listen, my seventeen

499
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: year old rebellious daughter is on drugs and ran away

500
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: to her aunt's house in California, which of course isn't

501
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: going to listen to any response. He said, I have

502
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: a rebellious teenager and I know exactly where she's at.

503
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: So they didn't do anything.

504
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: So those statements definitely stalled police investigating.

505
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, they admitted that in court.

506
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: So all these years later, and this has been something

507
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: that you've dealt with in your life for a long time. Now,

508
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: how do you summarize what you think happened that day?

509
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: It's hard. I think that he'd actually planned something the

510
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: year before she went missing, basically on the last day

511
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: of her sophomore year. There's allegations that he took her

512
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: to the middle of the desert tried to sexually assault her.

513
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: She stayed calm. They got home, and she ran to

514
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: a neighbor's house begging for help. He told the neighbor

515
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: that she was on a hallucinogenic drug, and the neighbor

516
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: didn't really do anything. From there, she demanded to live

517
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: with our brothers, and she did for that entire summer,

518
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: and my dad wrote a letter to her high school

519
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: and said Alissa ran away from home. So this happened

520
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 2: exactly one year before she actually went missing. So I

521
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: think that that was his plan. I think that he

522
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: wanted to do it that year, but for some reason couldn't,

523
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: and so he took her out of school in the

524
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: last day, knowing that nobody was going to call because

525
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: she wasn't going to be absent the next day. He'd

526
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: have basically all summer to figure out what he was

527
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: going to do, and then he took her out somewhere

528
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: and did something.

529
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: So is it your belief or feeling that your dad

530
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: wanted to kill her?

531
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah. She was telling everybody that she was being

532
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: sexually abused. He had already called CPS preemptively and said,

533
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: my daughter's going to call and lie and say that

534
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: I'm sexually abusing her because she wants a car. It

535
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: was just getting worse and it was clearly escalating. Even

536
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: about a year before she went missing, my father made

537
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: a phone call and he said something to the effect

538
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: of that he's getting older and losing his temperament and

539
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: that he can't continue doing nice things for people who

540
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: lie about him.

541
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?

542
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 5: I don't know.

543
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: I mean I think that he was just really afraid

544
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: that it was all going to come out, and I mean,

545
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: obviously it all did.

546
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: This person being your dad. What do you think makes

547
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: somebody like this? I mean, I know that's just almost

548
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: could be a philosophical philosophical question at some point, but

549
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: or a psychoanalysis, But I don't know. What have you

550
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: thought about why was he like this? Why does he

551
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: do this? Why do he do that?

552
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think in his mind, his ego just wouldn't

553
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 2: let him be perceived that way. He's still that way today.

554
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: He can't see himself as anything but a martyr, a victim,

555
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: and really like this action hero of his own story.

556
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: He can't own up to anything, and he never has

557
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: been able to. So I think that it was either

558
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: kill her or the truth was going to come out.

559
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: So you think that all of this was likely because

560
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: he wanted to, in some sick way, maintain his character

561
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: or his self belief that he's not a bad guy

562
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: or something, or his portrayal of that, like covering up

563
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: what he did that was so awful.

564
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, He's always been that way. When I asked

565
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: him if he denied all the allegations of sexual abuse

566
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: from all the women, he said, what I need to

567
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 2: understand is that when women are rejected, they lie, and

568
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: that he's dealt with about fifty accusations like that. It's

569
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: just insane.

570
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: It's a lot of them.

571
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot.

572
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: How did you deal with how you felt about it?

573
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: I mean, was I'm sure there's anger and what did

574
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: that feel.

575
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it's more like

576
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: passion and determination because it's not about me. It's about

577
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 2: my sister. And I mean, I think the best way

578
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: to get justice for her is just for the world

579
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: to know her story. And she's already helped so many people,

580
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: so I know it kind of sounds crazy, but it's

581
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: so much less about anger because I spent so many

582
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: years taking care of my dad, so many from when

583
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: Alyssa was gone when I was twelve through my college years.

584
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 2: I took care of him, even during his bomb case.

585
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: I would file his legal motions for him. So I

586
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: think it was more heartbreak and then passion just to

587
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: do the right thing. It's exhausting, but in my mind

588
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: it's very black and white. We know what happened. I

589
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: need to get media for my sister. I need to

590
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: fight for my sister, and that's the end of it.

591
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: Do you remember a moment when you switched from supporting

592
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: your father to not anymore?

593
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: I g I asked that question all the time, and

594
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: I think it was really gradual, to be honest, Yeah,

595
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 2: there are a few moments I can pick out for sure,

596
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 2: Like I remember because I ended up dropping out of

597
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 2: high school. I had a really bad, crazy teenagehood and

598
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: I dropped out of high school determined to go to college,

599
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: and I did. I graduated debt free, at the top

600
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: of my class. Nice and yeah, and I like bought

601
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: a home. I was so proud of myself. All while

602
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 2: working full time. I had no support. And I remember

603
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: he called because he's in prison, right so I can't

604
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: call him, And he called me and I was like, Dad,

605
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: like I did it, Like I graduated, like I have

606
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: you know, super high GPA, Like this is amazing. And

607
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: he was like, yeah, but you know your mom, my mother,

608
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 2: who's deceased, who died when I was four. Your mom

609
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: has been coming to me in my prison cell and

610
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: talking to me, and she's just really disappointed that you

611
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: didn't graduate from high school.

612
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: You deceased mother. Yes, the ghost of your mom has

613
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: been visiting your dad and saying that she's disappointed in you. Yes,

614
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: well he's in prison.

615
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: Yes. So that was one moment that you know, it

616
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: wasn't like, oh my god, hell, Alyssa. It was like.

617
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: Your your bubble was bursted there. I mean, you had

618
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: you were proud, rightfully, so you did some really cool

619
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: shit and then you're like, what the hell or what

620
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: was your reaction to that?

621
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just like, oh wow. I mean I

622
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: don't remember what I said, right, I wouldn't do anything

623
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: for those tapes. I would love to hear Yeah, yeah,

624
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: they exist somewhere. But that really just opened my mind

625
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: to like, Wow, I don't think that he's the guy

626
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: I thought he was, Like, this is a really cruel

627
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: thing to do to the only child who's like supporting

628
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: you at this point. And then just over time it

629
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: just made more and more sense. I found this like

630
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: map in my house of the desert that had all

631
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: these random points circled on them, and my boyfriend at

632
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: the time looked it up and all the coordinates were

633
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: like in the middle of the desert. And then I

634
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: turned to that boyfriend who lived with me and my

635
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: dad since when we were seventeen he moved in, and

636
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 2: I said, do you think my dad could have done this?

637
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: Could he have killed Alyssa? And he turned to me

638
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: and he's like, Sarah, everyone thinks you're dad killed Alissa.

639
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: So I was the last one. All my siblings believed

640
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: it before I did. And then slowly, over time I

641
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: just came to the realization.

642
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 1: Why was that you think that it maybe if maybe

643
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: took you a little bit longer to realize that. I mean,

644
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: obviously I can make some assumptions here as to why

645
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: that would be. But in hindsight, why do you think

646
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: it was you were slower to conceptualize, Hey, maybe maybe

647
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: he's a bad guy who killed my sister.

648
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: I think it's a few things, right. I have this

649
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,959
Speaker 2: like blinding optimism in me that I think is really

650
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: like a survival instinct.

651
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: What do okay explain that though? Like in what ways?

652
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: In what other ways? Too? Well?

653
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: I mean like when the worst shit happens, I'm like,

654
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: it's gonna be okay, Like every you know, this is

655
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: a tough moment and we're going to get through it.

656
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: This sucks, but like, hey, we're going to be good guys.

657
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I have this, like miss Rachel, blinding optimism

658
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: that really keeps me going. And I'm so thankful for

659
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: that that that all of this hasn't turned me really cold. Right,

660
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: But also, you know, I was such a daddy's girl

661
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: when I was like a crazy teenager. He would completely

662
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 2: enable me. I was able to leave the house for

663
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: weeks at a time when I was like fifteen, I

664
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: was dating like a nineteen year old drug dealer and

665
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: living at his house, and my dad knew that well, yeah,

666
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: he would give me money for anything I wanted to.

667
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: By those standards a long time ago, probably not good

668
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: stuff to do. And as a dad, though, to you

669
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: kind of grappled me. She had like this whole other

670
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: life where you viewed your dad in a different light, right,

671
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: and then you had to like undo that in some

672
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: way or something.

673
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I thought he was the cool dad, and so

674
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: did my friends. If we were at a party we

675
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 2: ran out of gas, he would come right there and

676
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: pick us up and not tell their parents. And yeah,

677
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: so I thought that he was amazing. But as I

678
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: got older and started you know, caring for children and

679
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: became an adult, I looked back and was like, well,

680
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 2: you know, that's not love, that's not love. That is

681
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: clearly just I mean, in my mind, he would always

682
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 2: say like, you know, Sarah, I'm so sorry about your life.

683
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: Like here, and we had no money. He was on disability.

684
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 2: He hasn't worked since the nineties, but he always had,

685
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: you know, five hundred bucks to give me here and there,

686
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: and he's like, I'm so sorry about your life and

687
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: looking back, big b Yeah, I mean now, looking back,

688
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: I think it was the guilt. I mean, I think

689
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 2: it was guilt about Alyssa. It was guilt that after

690
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 2: Alyssa was gone, he was in such a deep depression

691
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: all the time. It was unreal. He wouldn't get out

692
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: of bed for days. He would, you know, I would

693
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: do things like go get him sonic and if the

694
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: ice wasn't right, he'd throw it against the wall and

695
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: scream at me. It was just I don't know, he

696
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 2: was just extremely abusive.

697
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: Looking back during that time period, what was your dad

698
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: saying in terms of what he thought may have happened

699
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: to her?

700
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: He would never talk about Alyssa.

701
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: I mean, he wasn't thinking out loud like where could

702
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: she be? Or who took her? Or where'd she go?

703
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: No. No, And the second that the police started investigating

704
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: is pretty much when he gave the responsibility over to me.

705
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: He said, I'm too sick. I can't handle this. It's

706
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: too stressful. You be the contact. But no, he never

707
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: really talked about it. I was completely kept in the dark.

708
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: If you could summarize how this has shaped you as

709
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: a human, how would you do that.

710
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean, it's changed everything, right. I never

711
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: expected this to be my career path for one let alone.

712
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: My passion more so than my career, is just my

713
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: passion and helping people also, you know, I have to

714
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: say that it's made me extremely like I've lost all

715
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: faith in the justice system. There's no logic in the

716
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: justice system much of the time, and that's I think

717
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: the hardest part for me is even though I do

718
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: have that blinding optimism when it comes to the law

719
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: and who has a better lawyer, I feel like it's

720
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: all kind of bullshit. So on one hand, I feel

721
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: this immense sense of I don't know, like justice right

722
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: because people can take these stories into their own hands,

723
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: like I did. You know that wasn't happening When I

724
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: first started what I was doing, not a lot of

725
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: people were doing. And now things have changed so much,

726
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 2: and I think that that's really shaped who I am.

727
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: Is having this effect on true crime that I never

728
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: intended and never realized until just recently. So this has

729
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: shaped everything about me.

730
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: When you started doing that, and you were one of

731
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: the first people to do something like that where you

732
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: were reaching out to the public in a way that

733
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: a lot of other families may have not done in

734
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: that sort of circumstance before. What did that feel like?

735
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: Did feel like a fish out of water? Did you

736
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: know what you were doing or what your objective was

737
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: or where you wanted to go with this? What was

738
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: your thought line when you started doing stuff like that.

739
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: I had no idea what I was doing. I had

740
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: no plan, I had nothing.

741
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: What'd you want though? What was the blanket end goal

742
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: just to hopefully some find some sort of answer or

743
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: get someone's attention or what was the idea?

744
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the police told me to get media,

745
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: so that was my first goal. Was let's just get

746
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: media and have everybody talking about Alyssa that I can

747
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: and over time, you know, I think that the goal

748
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: kind of change, not just for media, but just for

749
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: people to hear her story and be affected by her story.

750
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: But certainly I was flying by the seat of my pants,

751
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: especially with TikTok. I had like no idea what I

752
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: was doing. I just started making videos and started making

753
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: content and I was mortified. Like before I started this,

754
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 2: I think I had like three pictures of my dogs

755
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: on Instagram and like, you know, twenty followers that were

756
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: all friends with family. Yeah, you know, yeah, you can

757
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 2: scroll back and yeah, exactly, nice blurry twenty fourteen pictures

758
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: or whatever. But yeah, I mean I had no idea

759
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: what I was doing, and I was just taking it

760
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: day by day. But when I saw the support for

761
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: me that and the support for Alyssa, really that changed everything.

762
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: I had never had that sense of community. You know,

763
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: I have five siblings, I have four older brothers and Alyssa,

764
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: and I was doing this all alone. But when the

765
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: Internet surrounded me with love, that gave me so much confidence.

766
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: It gave me so much hope, and it just propelled

767
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: me forward.

768
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: Describe to me what that is exactly for someone who

769
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: may not know specifically what you mean when the Internet

770
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: sort of became a support system of sorts through your

771
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: work in what way did in what way did that

772
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: happen and what did that feel like?

773
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 5: Yeah?

774
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: It happened slowly, right, you know. I had your Twitter

775
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: and Instagram and Facebook with like a few thousand followers,

776
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 2: and that was nice. And I would respond to messages

777
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: all day, messages of support.

778
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Mostly what are they saying to you?

779
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 2: Like, we love you, we support you, we want justice

780
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: for Alissa.

781
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: Strangers right, Oh.

782
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, total strangers. You know, this is just bullshit. What happened?

783
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: Like people were mad for Alissa.

784
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: Do you feel validated through that?

785
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 5: Oh?

786
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely? And I think so many people identify with

787
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: her story. You know, being sexually abused is not a

788
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 2: unique story, unfortunately, especially by a non custodial step parent.

789
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then TikTok changed everything. Oh my god, gosh.

790
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: I didn't even realize I posted that first video and

791
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: I was like, this isn't gonna get any views, Like

792
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: this is so mortifying. I feel like such a nerd,

793
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: like and then it just went viral, and before I

794
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: knew it, I had a million people behind me, rallying,

795
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: wanting more information, wanting me to answer questions, saying really

796
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: nice things, and they really did become like family to me.

797
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: Is as parasocial as that might sound, like when I

798
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 2: had nobody, I had them.

799
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: Your podcast, the new one about mor Murray What your Sister,

800
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: is called Media Pressure. It's an amazing show, by the way,

801
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: heartbreaking story. Do you ever feel any media pressure yourself?

802
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the whole concept behind the podcast,

803
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: But like, how do you feel Yeah, I mean, my

804
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: whole journey has been about getting media pressure, and I

805
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: think I feel media pressure in different ways. You know,

806
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: all the wonderful ways that it helped my sister's story

807
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: get out there, but also now I think the pressure

808
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 2: of being this person who speaks about ethics and true crime.

809
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: That's what I really mean.

810
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I figured, so, yeah, what is that to you?

811
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 5: I don't know.

812
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like it was so thrust upon me,

813
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: but also obviously I did it myself. Basically, when my

814
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: dad got arrested, I felt this huge weight lifted off

815
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: my shoulders that I didn't have to be the perfect

816
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 2: family member so that I could get as many interviews

817
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: as possible for my sister. And it's not that I

818
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: was lying, It's that I was a doormat and that

819
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: people could say the most horrendous shit to me. They

820
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: could ask me to cry, they could ask me to

821
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: write their script for them, They could ask me to

822
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 2: edit their audio for them, which now is a creator

823
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: is fucking crazy to me.

824
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: Explained to me, like, what you were going through that

825
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: in those times, give me some examples of that. What

826
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: do you mean?

827
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 5: Yeah?

828
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,439
Speaker 2: I mean I was doing interviews multiple times a week,

829
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: and this was on top of my full time job

830
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: and making the podcast. So I mean I would do

831
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: interviews at eleven pm if somebody wanted to. I've been

832
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: asked by a huge creator to review the script and

833
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: edit it before they film their video about my sister.

834
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: It's stuff like that, and I don't It's not about

835
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 2: calling people, it's about recognizing what families go through. But

836
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: that was, you know, pretty common. Of course, there were

837
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: like so many amazing people along the way. Sure, but

838
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: also I was the first family member that so many

839
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: people interviewed, So I don't think it was necessarily malicious.

840
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: I think people just didn't know you took.

841
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: The brunt of it. Yeah, sounds exhausting.

842
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: It was exhausting.

843
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: Did you feel like at some points that you were

844
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: just being used for a narrative?

845
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean I would sit down in interviews and

846
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: they'd be like, okay, tell your story.

847
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: Like go right, yeah, yeah, You're like what, like you

848
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: don't have any questions or thoughts?

849
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 5: Right?

850
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

851
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 2: Well, and I could tell that they didn't, you know, prepare,

852
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: But at that time, I didn't care. It was all

853
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: about Alyssa. I really didn't care, Like, you know, it

854
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: is what it is, this is what I've decided to

855
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: do and I will take on this pain and this

856
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: burden for my sister because it's not about me. And

857
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: then when my dad got arrested and I became a

858
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: creator covering other people's stories, I was like, holy shit,

859
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: I would never do this to people. It's kind of

860
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,479
Speaker 2: like like, if you've ever had a job and retailer, server,

861
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 2: whatever something.

862
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: I've been a server for a year. Well it was

863
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 1: served for years.

864
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I was.

865
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: I was still four time in Chili's, but like that's

866
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: just but.

867
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 2: You know, no, I was the world's worst waitress.

868
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: I was the worst one. Really, I may have been worse.

869
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: I don't know, let's hear it.

870
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: Then I worked at TJ Fridays. I would have like

871
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: two tables and then like beg the other servers to

872
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 2: take mine because I was so scared. And eventually they

873
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: put me on the patio in summer, which meant there

874
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: was like one table a day.

875
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 5: I was.

876
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: I would walk with like three dollars.

877
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: Wow, but you were there for like eight hours and

878
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: did sidework and yeah, making like one dollar and thirty

879
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: cents an hour or whatever. It was exactly guy's horrible.

880
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: I'd be the guy who we get really busy and

881
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: I would just be sitting there at the computer putting

882
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: stuff in and I go oh, no, oh no. And

883
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: I would see a table of like six people that

884
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: was my table that's looking around wondering where their food is.

885
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: And I realized I forgot to ring it in and

886
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: I have no clue what it is, and there's no

887
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: way I can go ask them what they ordered an

888
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: hour later. So the only way out of this is

889
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: I gotta fire in some things that are random in

890
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: like the kitchen screwed it up. That was like a

891
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: moment where you're like, maybe I just quit now, you know,

892
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I just start over entirely clean slate walk

893
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: out the door. That'd be rude, but god it was.

894
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 1: It was so uncomfortable. Yeah, I was not a good server.

895
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: I was. I was nice, but I'm not. I'm not

896
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: good at it. Same I'm not ashamed to say it either.

897
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: No, it's a really hard job.

898
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: There are good service and partenders like I know when

899
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: they are and when they're not, and I'm not one

900
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: of them.

901
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I always tip the ones that seem really like it,

902
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 2: tip them really well. Obviously I always tip, but.

903
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: You dip the bad ones too. I get the bad ones.

904
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 2: Oh, I tipped them Like if they seem overwhelmed, I'm

905
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: like here, honey, like, I know you're not gonna make money,

906
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: Like here's an extra twenty or whatever right now?

907
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: Yah?

908
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

909
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. So back to the media pressure that you may

910
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: feel today. You know, you started on this journey to

911
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: get justice for your sister, and you use the media

912
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 1: in a way that a lot of people really hadn't

913
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: yet and kind of learned your own way through that.

914
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: And it's really fucking awesome what you've done, and I

915
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: think it's amazing, and you've paved the way for so

916
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: many other people to do the same thing, and it's

917
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: shown just the world and the Internet that what you're

918
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: doing does matter and can have an impact. Now that

919
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: you are here as a true crime podcaster and you

920
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: are still an advocate for not only your sister but

921
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 1: other families as well, and you probably get all these

922
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: messages and stuff, do you ever feel the pressure of

923
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 1: upholding that in any sort of way, because you're also

924
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: just a person at the end of the day who

925
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: probably gets tired like I do.

926
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, one thousand percent. I think the hardest part

927
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: of my job now is not being able to get

928
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 2: to everybody and not being able to spend that quality

929
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: time with these families that I used to be able to.

930
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: I just there's not enough of me to go around.

931
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: So I am constantly feeling like I'm disappointing families because

932
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: I can't get back to them or you know, I

933
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: can't produce an episode for them very quickly. And that's

934
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: the hardest part, and I'm sure they don't feel that way.

935
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: I just remember, I want to write, like, of course

936
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,479
Speaker 1: you could, if there could be a if you could

937
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: clone yourself, do you do it all right? I would

938
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: imagine you seem like you would.

939
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, one hundred percent. Because these families need people

940
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: to talk to that get it, that get what they're

941
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: going through. And it's a terribly unique experience that I'm

942
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: glad not everybody can relate to. Sure, but it's just

943
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,959
Speaker 2: it makes a difference when you're talking to somebody who

944
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: truly knows what you're going through.

945
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of it's, you know, on

946
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: just the very big from the very beginning is just

947
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: the knowledge of them knowing that you have so knowing

948
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: that they're not speaking to somebody who has no damn

949
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: clue what they're talking about. There's got to be almost

950
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: an immediate sort of underlying trust that you could probably

951
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: it's hardly probably put into words, I would imagine just

952
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: like a acknowledgment of something, or what is it like

953
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: to you when people come to you like that and

954
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: sort of have that trust already with you.

955
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I approach people or they approach me,

956
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: I never assume that they know who I am or

957
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: what you know. I don't go into it like, hello,

958
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: I'm the Sarah Attorney.

959
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: You don't I thought you did starting now right, Yeah,

960
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: that's exactly how I'm going to go into interviews now.

961
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: No, So you know, at the top of an interview,

962
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 2: you know, I'll tell them the same things. It's like,

963
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 2: if you say something you don't want in the podcast,

964
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 2: let me know, I'm happy to edit it out. If

965
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: you have any questions off the record, I'm happy to

966
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 2: answer for them, you know. And really, throughout the interview process,

967
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 2: it just kind of comes out. They'll say something and

968
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 2: I'll be like, you know, I'm not sure if you know,

969
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: but I do have a missing sister. So I completely

970
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 2: relate to this and this is what I experienced. How

971
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: do you feel about this? Yeah, so it really just

972
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: comes out naturally in conversation, and I that I'll often

973
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 2: get to the end of an interview and a family.

974
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: Families will always tell me like, I've never had an

975
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: interview like this before.

976
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, that's awesome, because they probably haven't. They probably

977
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: never felt like they were in what could almost be

978
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: more of a therapy session then in a good way,

979
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 1: not a negative connotation there, like a cathartic we're both

980
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: kind of reliving and sharing experiences in a way and

981
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: learning more about each other, pushing something forward in a

982
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: positive direction. Like that's It's not always like that. When

983
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 1: there's a journalist and a subject, it's usually the opposite,

984
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: like in most true crime stories it's a journalist who

985
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: isn't a part of that traditionally. But if someone who

986
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 1: has experienced something and that comes out in your own

987
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: questioning or curiosity or way of relating, that's going to

988
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: feel really grounding to people. I feel like, I am

989
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: really curious what your thoughts on true crime are. I

990
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: feel like there's a good, bad, and ugly, but what

991
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: are your thoughts?

992
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel the same right. I think

993
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: on its best day, it helps these cases, generates tips,

994
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 2: helps the law enforcement put pieces of the puzzle together,

995
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 2: supports these families. On the worst days, it hinders cases

996
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: and destroys them forever. I think that there's a fine

997
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: line between caring about a case and becoming so obsessive

998
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: with it that you actually do harm. And I feel

999
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 2: like that does happen unfortunately, you see these larger than

1000
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,959
Speaker 2: life cases. I think Delvi is a great example right now,

1001
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 2: sure where I think a lot of people are doing harm.

1002
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: Just by Internet sleuthing and just asserting random craziness like

1003
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: that's not that sometimes is unfounded or incorrect basically or what.

1004
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1005
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean you know, the interests was so great

1006
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 2: that they needed to leak the crime scene photos of

1007
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: two children?

1008
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Who did that?

1009
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1010
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: I mean I I don't There was a person, right,

1011
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 2: there was a person And you know, I don't want

1012
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 2: to get into all that because the del five people

1013
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: will be after me and I'm just not ready for that.

1014
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: Like I'm at a point in my life where I'm

1015
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: looking for more peace and true crime. To be honest, you.

1016
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: Don't mean he means to tell me. You don't want

1017
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: people to come on your Instagram and TikTok and talk

1018
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: shit right now, I mean they go for it, go

1019
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: for it, Ata, Please can we minimize the nonsense?

1020
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 2: Well, it's just, you know, just like Mora Murray. I

1021
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: remember a few years ago, I made some tweet or

1022
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: something because I used to you know, I used to

1023
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,439
Speaker 2: be all over Twitter saying all sorts of things because

1024
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: I was I was passionate, and I wasn't like on

1025
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: any mission.

1026
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just I.

1027
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: Was just speaking my piece on there, and I was like,

1028
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 2: Delphi is sliding very quickly to be even worse than

1029
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: the more A Murray case. And a few years later,

1030
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: I think it is.

1031
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: Wow.

1032
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: I mean it's just it's NonStop coverage twenty four to seven,

1033
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: every motion, every single thing. And now you know they're

1034
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: talking about how he can't get a fair trial because

1035
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: of all the media, and I think a question.

1036
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: We need itself in a way, well, and we're aiding it,

1037
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: we're egging it on exactly.

1038
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's time to step away. And I think in

1039
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 2: Delphiod's right now.

1040
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: It absolutely is. Yeah, this is it's it's there. Now

1041
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: stop being like that about it, because now you're just

1042
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: only causing harm. What good is being done here?

1043
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: But I mean it's a two way street, right, you know,

1044
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: freedom of speech. The same way I have a right

1045
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 2: to do what I want to do, they have a

1046
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: right to do what they want to do, and as

1047
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 2: much as I may not like it, I have to,

1048
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: you know, honor that.

1049
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 1: What do you want people to take away from If

1050
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: someone's listening to this and they look at what you've

1051
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: done and they're inspired by it and they want to

1052
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: do something similar, what'll be your advice to them? Because

1053
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: it's a very difficult thing that you're doing, and it

1054
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: comes with a lot of different factors that aren't necessarily

1055
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: at the forefront of what you listen to every day.

1056
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: And what would be your advice to someone?

1057
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 2: I mean, my first advice, I think is like, it's

1058
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: a lot and be ready for that. It's like, making

1059
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 2: the podcast about my sister was one of the best

1060
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 2: and worst things I've ever done. It was hell on

1061
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 2: earth creating it. I absolutely cried through it. I couldn't sleep.

1062
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 2: It was Oh it was fucking awful, fucking awful, and

1063
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: I was how do you.

1064
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: Think about an edit?

1065
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 5: Oh?

1066
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: My god, Like, how did you like discern like, were

1067
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: you like toggling back and forth from like being like

1068
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: super sad about it and then super focused or was

1069
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: it simultaneous.

1070
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I would switch and it was

1071
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: simultaneous at the same time, like just depending on the day, right,

1072
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: Like sometimes I would do an interview and I would

1073
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: need to, you know, have a glass of wine set

1074
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 2: in the bath for four hours to recover, and other

1075
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 2: times that one does, yeah, exactly. Other times I felt

1076
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: like I was under deadline. I was like, I have

1077
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: to get this out now or it's never gonna happen,

1078
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: and I just got to it, you know. But I

1079
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 2: think it was easier because I was just telling my

1080
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 2: sister's story from her case file and from interviews. I

1081
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 2: inserted so little of myself into that podcast, and that

1082
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: was by design. I didn't want people to think I

1083
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: was just some sad little sister or some daughter out

1084
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: on a mission to destroy my dad, because that's.

1085
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: What really wasn't the case. I feel like that should

1086
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: be acceptable. Well, I'm yeah, but also I respect what

1087
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: you're saying. Yeah, I was going to be fair and right,

1088
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: which also I think is important, and I think that's

1089
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: why you're where you're at today.

1090
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've had people say like, you should

1091
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: have waited for more evidence before they rested your dad, which,

1092
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: first of all, not my fucking decision, as much as

1093
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: I wish it was, and it seems like it is.

1094
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't control.

1095
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is one hundred percent not within my control. No,

1096
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: and again after so many years, like what's going to

1097
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: fucking happen? Like these people die after a certain amount

1098
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 2: of time, they die with their secrets, Like you're left

1099
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 2: with two options. You either pursue it or you don't.

1100
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 2: And I couldn't live with myself not pursuing it. So

1101
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm glad we went to trial. Obviously, I

1102
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 2: don't love the outcome. I think that my dad got

1103
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: off on a technicality, but I do think that my yeah,

1104
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: absolutely absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah. But I think my sister

1105
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 2: has justice because I think so out.

1106
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: I see it from outside. I feel like she does

1107
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: because we all know that guy's a killer exactly, and

1108
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: he has to live with that, and that that might

1109
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: be worse. I think it might be. Could I don't know?

1110
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I actually just told my dad

1111
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: this and he like it stopped him in his tracks

1112
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 2: because I was like, Dad, like they came to me

1113
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: and asked me if I wanted, like if they were

1114
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,919
Speaker 2: to give you a plea deal, what I would want,

1115
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 2: And I said, let him walk if he tells us

1116
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 2: what happened, Like I'm not here to punish him, like,

1117
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: I just want fucking answers.

1118
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like though, that's amazing.

1119
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 2: It's not about me, it's not about him. It's about

1120
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 2: just my sister and getting those answers. Like he's seventy five,

1121
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: like it's he doesn't have much time left anyway.

1122
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I totally agree. It's like with FLOE's family,

1123
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: they've been gasolt into insanity about what they know is true,

1124
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: and we've only ever uncovered information that supports that and

1125
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: nothing else, and there is no incentive to do anything

1126
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: maybe until now. I'm not even convinced of that now,

1127
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: to be.

1128
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: Honest, media pressure moves mountains. I don't say that just

1129
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 2: for a fucking catchphrase, Like it's real.

1130
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: It's almost like a good title for like a podcast

1131
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: or something.

1132
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 2: Almost.

1133
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: No, but you're right, and like, to me, that's that's

1134
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: the one thing that I can do. I can drum

1135
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: that up. I can't arrest anybody exactly. I can't you know,

1136
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: guarantee that I find some smoking gun. Those are things

1137
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: that are out of my control that I will try

1138
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: to push in that direction. But what I can do

1139
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: is try to get your attention and shake the trees.

1140
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: And that's what's really been the focus of my entire

1141
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: mindset this season is I don't want to even do

1142
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: another season of up and Vanish if I'm not trying

1143
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: even harder as a little bit older, a little bit wiser,

1144
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: hopefully than I did last time, like going even harder

1145
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: because I can, and if I'm not doing that, then

1146
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: I shouldn't do it.

1147
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1148
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: Well, and I think you're brave because you talk to

1149
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: all the bad people or people we think are bad,

1150
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 2: and I don't think a lot of people go that far.

1151
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: They'll talk to the families now, of course, you know

1152
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 2: if they can. But I can tell you almost nobody's

1153
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 2: ever reached out to my dad for comment, like and

1154
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: you should do it.

1155
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: He probably wouldn't I do.

1156
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: Oh, he would, he would do. He does every single

1157
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 2: interview he can. He would want. Yeah, he would, one

1158
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: hundred percent, one hundred percent. No, he came and he

1159
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 2: sat down in like his suit he was ready to go,

1160
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 2: oh oh yeah, we had a phone call before we met.

1161
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: He's fucking he's so manipulative.

1162
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just playing it now. He probably feels like

1163
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:54,439
Speaker 1: he's all scot.

1164
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: Free, like yeah, oh, one hundred percent. Well, and he

1165
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: was like, Sarah, I have a favor to ask if

1166
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 2: we sit down and do this interview, can I have

1167
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: a hug? I was like, I don't have to think

1168
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: about that, like, obviously, fucking well the interview first, Yeah, exactly.

1169
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, you're asking for a hug,

1170
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 2: You're doing all these things I want honest answers.

1171
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't some like exchange or some fucking what

1172
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: are you doing?

1173
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 5: No.

1174
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 2: He told me that I destroyed my family, that all

1175
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: I care about is basically money and fame, and this

1176
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 2: is just my career. And he's writing a book, so

1177
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 2: really yeah, So I said, oh, is your book himself though.

1178
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: Right, he's not gonna put it out or anything.

1179
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: That's what I say said, So your book's going to

1180
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,439
Speaker 2: be free, And he was like, what do you mean?

1181
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: I said, well, you're you're sitting here talking about how

1182
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: I make my money off you know, true crime podcasting

1183
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: and Melissa it basically, I'm sure. No, he wants to

1184
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 2: talk about how Arizona is the American corridor for sex

1185
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: trafficking to South America. That's okay, he says he's gonna

1186
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 2: he wants he's looking for donations so that he can

1187
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 2: take back all the American women from South America.

1188
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: So telling to me as his character, like, it almost

1189
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,959
Speaker 1: feels like he, like you're saying, feels so bad about

1190
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: what he did that he's like, look over here, and

1191
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: it's like, whould you a book about your daughter? Man?

1192
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 2: He said almost nothing about her, Yeah, exactly, what the fuck?

1193
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1194
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, no's he's all about how the Phoenix police are

1195
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 2: turning families against each other, and that's what happened here.

1196
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 2: And I was so badly manipulated by the Phoenix Police

1197
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: Department that it caused me to destroy my life. He's just,

1198
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 2: I mean, he just he has to shape his own

1199
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 2: reality or else he can't live in it.

1200
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: Exactly, Like he is just drinking his own sauce at

1201
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: this point, right, he blees his own lines basically, probably right, yeah,

1202
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:42,439
Speaker 1: to a degree. Yeah, oh yeah.

1203
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 5: No.

1204
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: A few years ago we met and he was like, well, Sarah,

1205
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 2: you know I was talking about like, why you know

1206
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 2: I was running wild you didn't care And he was like, well,

1207
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 2: if you were doing bad things, I didn't know about it,

1208
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: which give me a fucking break. And so in this

1209
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 2: meeting he was like, well, you were doing all those

1210
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 2: bad things. You had that drug dealer boyfriend, and it's like.

1211
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: On you, Yeah, exactly, that's the most manipulative shit.

1212
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1213
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't need me to point that out. I'm

1214
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: just like fuck that guy.

1215
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. But I mean it all goes back to, like,

1216
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 2: kudos to talking to the bad people, because not everybody will,

1217
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 2: and it's a hard thing to do, it is, I.

1218
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: Think, and it's you know, and also there's so much

1219
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: you don't know when you're going into that you don't

1220
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: know definitively what is true or not true, and you

1221
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: have to lean into your instincts a lot. And even

1222
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: if they did or didn't participate in some sort of

1223
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: crime that you think they may be associated with, they

1224
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: might still be a really bad person and really dangerous

1225
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: person who may be even more upset that you're here

1226
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: for some other reason. But yeah, I just I feel like,

1227
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: in a way it sounds corny, but it's my responsibility

1228
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: at this point. If I'm going to continue to make

1229
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: investigative true crime podcasts and take you through a story

1230
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 1: like the that, I'm putting myself in positions like that

1231
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,959
Speaker 1: or willing to or someone else should do it. Yeah,

1232
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that that feels awesome all the time,

1233
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: but I'm saying it's okay. But like I I feel

1234
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: like that's how I sleep at night. Yeah, is knowing that,

1235
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: like I'm doing as much as I can and pushing

1236
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: my comfort zone every single time, and maybe this time

1237
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: it gets is that much closer and that's it was

1238
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: right there, but I just needed to push a little

1239
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: harder or something.

1240
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the whole thing, right, You see something terrible

1241
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 2: in the world, and you can either be upset about

1242
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: it or you can do something about it.

1243
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,919
Speaker 1: There's an optimism again, I know. Do you ever get mad?

1244
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1245
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah I get mad. I mean it takes

1246
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 2: me a lot to push me to the edge and

1247
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 2: get mad. A lot of the times, I feel like

1248
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 2: I just get like passionate, right, Like I remember in

1249
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 2: my sister's case, they started so I had been the

1250
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 2: family contact since I was a teenager. So for like

1251
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: twenty years something insane, and they started not giving me

1252
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 2: information and only giving information to my sister's biological father

1253
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 2: who was never in her life.

1254
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: That's weird. Yeah, and so that's not it. Yeah, don't

1255
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: do that.

1256
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 2: It was they were just sick of dealing with me,

1257
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 2: and so I called and I wanted to file a

1258
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: formal complaint because they were no longer giving me information

1259
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 2: and giving it to this guy with no legal precedents

1260
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 2: over Alyssa. And he just kept saying, ma'am, are you

1261
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 2: a trained detective? But are you a trained detective? Are

1262
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 2: you a trained detective? And it was like the worst

1263
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 2: fucking phone call I'd ever been on. And so I

1264
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: made merch that said trained detective and that's my best

1265
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: selling merch.

1266
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: Now, that's amazing.

1267
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: So I try to turn it into something like it

1268
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 2: seems really sassy and spiteful.

1269
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: And it is. That's bad. That's bad. I had to.

1270
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 2: I mean, but it's again, what do you do?

1271
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: No? But like that to me, that's what you do?

1272
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: Call it for what it is?

1273
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 2: Like.

1274
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: I like how you flip things on its nose, you know,

1275
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: I'd like to think I like the think that I

1276
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: try to do that too, where it's like, call it

1277
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: for what it is, don't sugarcoat it you can. I

1278
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: think just being transparent in that way is it's more

1279
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: powerful than anything else.

1280
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 2: It's freeing, isn't it.

1281
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: It's freeing. Also, like, guys, you can do it too,

1282
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: just be on it, exhausting your own selves.

1283
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 2: Especially in ethics and true crime. Like I try to

1284
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 2: admit my mistakes as much as I can.

1285
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure.

1286
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 2: I did an episode early on about Elizabeth Smart, and

1287
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 2: I had another survivor come to me and was like,

1288
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 2: that's not cool to tell somebody else's story. And I

1289
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 2: was like, you're fucking one hundred percent right, And I

1290
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 2: like apologize to Elizabeth Smart, you know what I mean?

1291
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 2: And I made an episode and talked about it. I

1292
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 2: was like, I did the wrong thing and this is

1293
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 2: how I corrected it. And we're learning each and every day,

1294
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 2: and I think there's nothing wrong with that.

1295
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's okay too, Like, yeah, how else do

1296
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 1: we learn right? It's not about being right, it's about

1297
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 1: and also we're talking about such a gray space at

1298
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: this point that's changed so much since twenty sixteen and

1299
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when we both started in true crime podcasting,

1300
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: it's different, and I feel like the rules are still

1301
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: writing themselves, like they've gone through a whole bunch and

1302
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 1: things have changed since it first was partly feels like

1303
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: now it's sort of like it's gonna have to be

1304
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: some sort of equilibrium moment because there's a lot of

1305
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people that aren't really giving it that

1306
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: care and people who are who were drowned out by

1307
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: those who aren't.

1308
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1309
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a popular industry and you're going to

1310
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 2: attract people because there's money and fame to be had.

1311
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at like this great migration

1312
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 2: from YouTube, right, there were all these beauty YouTubers that

1313
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 2: when beauty faded out, they became true crime YouTuber, right,

1314
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 2: because that's what it was popular.

1315
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1316
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like no shade to them.

1317
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: Also, some of them are really good. Yeah, absolutely wear

1318
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: makeup now I want to. Yeah.

1319
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's just how the world is. When

1320
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 2: something is popular and there's you know, money or fame

1321
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: to be had, people are gonna flock to it. But

1322
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 2: I think that it naturally weeds itself out, right, Like

1323
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: the good people stay and the bad people don't.

1324
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: I feel that one and a part of me does

1325
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: feel like I need to just for me, keep setting

1326
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: the bar for me. Yeah, or else I fell off

1327
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: and didn't continue pushing this genre into a better place

1328
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 1: or something.

1329
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 2: Yea, So how do you? Yes, but how do you

1330
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:35,440
Speaker 2: keep up that momentum?

1331
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 5: Oh?

1332
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 2: My God, is the question right? I mean god, I

1333
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 2: have no idea.

1334
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:40,679
Speaker 1: I thought you, I thought you're gonna tell me that

1335
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: you just gotta you gotta find it somewhere, you know.

1336
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes you find it from different places you don't like.

1337
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: I don't find it from the same places that I

1338
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: used to like in the very very beginning, because things

1339
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 1: are things have changed, things are different in my life.

1340
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot. I'm I've changed, I've evolve. The

1341
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 1: world's different. So not all of those, not all the

1342
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: ways that I used to find inspiration are the exact same.

1343
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: But I think that's also part of the evolution, is

1344
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: evolving your inspiration. And some things always remain true and constant,

1345
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 1: and I just try to latch onto those and just

1346
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 1: try to, I don't know, challenge myself and try to

1347
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: find joy in that.

1348
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 2: To be honest, there's no innovation in staying the same

1349
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,679
Speaker 2: and doing the same thing that everybody else does, make.

1350
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: Up scripted stories. If that's the case, what am I

1351
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 1: doing differently? How am I approaching? Why should I do this?

1352
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 1: If I'm just going to cursory level tell a story

1353
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: and rehash all this tragic shit.

1354
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah that I have no interest in that same.

1355
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, and like, I admire you for.

1356
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 2: That, and I admire you for that, Thank you, and.

1357
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 1: Cool to see you taking that and having taken that

1358
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: to other stories and collaborations with other people and making

1359
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 1: hit shows and doing both right, like and really kind

1360
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 1: of creating that perfect storm, that perfect recipe. That is

1361
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 1: what I think it takes to actually move the needle,

1362
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 1: which is super cool. So good job.

1363
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks, I'm trying. I will say that, you know,

1364
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 2: Julie Murray did all the heavy lifting.

1365
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 5: You know what I mean.

1366
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: Shout out to her too, absolutely. Yeah. I've never met her,

1367
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 1: but she sounds amazing and she's so strong for doing this,

1368
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: and damn an amazing storyteller. And it's just you feel

1369
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: something different when you hear her talk.

1370
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 2: She's a natural, yeah, an absolute natural, and I was not,

1371
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:51,600
Speaker 2: so I can I can say that confidently I was

1372
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 2: one hundred percent not an actual She is no.

1373
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: Ye, she's got it. It's super powerful. I hope I

1374
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 1: get to meet her one day. Hopefully she hears this.

1375
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 1: But she is amazing. It's so cool to see and

1376
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: it's even cooler to see in collaboration with you and

1377
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 1: just I love the story. And yeah, I know you're

1378
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 1: gonna continue to dope. Thanks so thank you.

1379
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 2: I hope. So I just want to keep helping people.

1380
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: Well that's admirable. So I don't think it comes across,

1381
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 1: but yeah, thank you for being here. This has been fun. Yeah,

1382
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:26,600
Speaker 1: been all over the place, behave I know not. I

1383
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:27,519
Speaker 1: think we made a podcast.

1384
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 2: I think we did make a podcast. Is this what

1385
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 2: podcasters do?

1386
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: Allegedly? Yeah, let me edit out all the you know,

1387
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: cancelable shit we said and then or I said, yeah, yeah,

1388
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 1: only I said that, but you'll never hear it, too funny.

1389
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and

1390
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1391
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:55,520
Speaker 4: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1392
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rudy. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1393
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,759
Speaker 4: At Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music by Makeup

1394
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

1395
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:12,719
Speaker 4: Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole and Gustav Wilde for Cohedo. Production

1396
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

1397
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

1398
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,600
Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

1399
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 4: Talking todeathpodcast dot com.

1400
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1401
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1402
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:41,879
Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

1403
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus

1404
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: dot com