Speaker 1: Episode one, Paying Off Debt and your Mental Health with
Speaker 1: Melanie Lockhart. Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll
Speaker 1: learn to save money, embrace simplicity, rights, and liver with
Speaker 1: your life. Here your host Jen and Jill. Mm hmmm,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen,
Speaker 1: my name is Jill, and today is our first episode
Speaker 1: of the new year. Happy new year, Jill, Happy new year, Jen,
Speaker 1: bright future, Thank you, absolutely, And so we're going to
Speaker 1: start off with a really light topic like your mental
Speaker 1: health and how it coincides with paying off debt and
Speaker 1: the mental load and burden of debt. So how does
Speaker 1: that sound? Because it's real talk, Jim. May not be
Speaker 1: what we want, it is what we need and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people will resonate with this. They
Speaker 1: do go hand in hand. I'm glad to see an
Speaker 1: uptick of people talking about it. But it's helpful, it's
Speaker 1: useful if we're in the step payoff journey. This is
Speaker 1: exactly what we need at the start of Absolutely, Before
Speaker 1: we get into our interview with Melanie, who is an
Speaker 1: amazing advocate for mental health, especially in the financial space,
Speaker 1: let's hear a word from our sponsors. This episode is
Speaker 1: brought to you by the Frugal Friends Shop to help
Speaker 1: you achieve your financial goals faster. This year, we are
Speaker 1: giving our listeners thirty dollars no minimum spend thirty dollars
Speaker 1: to use in the Frugal Friends Shop. So we have
Speaker 1: several challenge workbooks to help you with everything from budgeting
Speaker 1: and impulse spending to minimalism and your habits. So had
Speaker 1: to Frugal Friends dot shop to check out all those
Speaker 1: options and use the code new Year thirty for thirty
Speaker 1: dollars off at checkout. Also brought to you by curiosity.
Speaker 1: It is said to be the culprit of the cats demise,
Speaker 1: but we say it's the birthplace of creativity and problem solving.
Speaker 1: Not sure what someone meant when they said you seem different.
Speaker 1: Practice curiosity. Wondering where that random dirt leads? Be curious,
Speaker 1: but in the daytime, confused about your own money, habits
Speaker 1: and patterns. Be curious. It may have killed the cat,
Speaker 1: but try it anyway. None of that sold that curiosity
Speaker 1: for me. Also, you said wonder where that random dirt leads?
Speaker 1: It says dirt row. If you see some dirt just
Speaker 1: trailing off into the distance follow it. I don't know,
Speaker 1: random dang it. None of that sells curiosity for me.
Speaker 1: But you are not a cat, so you are already
Speaker 1: on the up when it comes to being curious. And
Speaker 1: if you are curious for a little bit more information
Speaker 1: about mental health and all of that, you're gonna get
Speaker 1: a lot from our guest today, Melanie. But we also
Speaker 1: have episode one sixty nine is our frugal self care episode,
Speaker 1: and that was a really popular one, So if you
Speaker 1: want to cue that to play next, I think you'll
Speaker 1: also really like that. But you should also check out
Speaker 1: Melanie's podcast. She's the founder and author of the book
Speaker 1: Dear Debt, and through her blogging books, she chronicled her
Speaker 1: journey of paying off eighty one dollars of student loan
Speaker 1: debt as a single woman who is you know, who's
Speaker 1: who's grappling with the weight of debt. So if that's
Speaker 1: ever sounded like you, she is a friend in that situation,
Speaker 1: and her book is definitely something you'll relate to. She
Speaker 1: also co founded the Lolo Retreat when people still met
Speaker 1: in person was this amazing like women and Money event,
Speaker 1: and then her show, The Mental Health and Wealth Show
Speaker 1: is a great collection of interviews about money and mental health.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're very excited to share her with you. Yes,
Speaker 1: let's get into it. Melanie, Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here. Thanks much for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm super excited to chat with you, ladies. We're pleased
Speaker 1: to be having this conversation. As we said in the intro,
Speaker 1: there's there's definitely an uptick I think of people recognizing
Speaker 1: the correlation between finances and mental health, but there's still
Speaker 1: so much more room in this space to be talking
Speaker 1: about it. And as you even mentioned in your own podcast,
Speaker 1: both of those are very stigmatized topics to be talking
Speaker 1: of out, both mental health and finances, and so we've
Speaker 1: just got a really lovely plen of talking about both
Speaker 1: of them. But it's everyone's experience, right, we are whole people,
Speaker 1: and so we're so thrilled for you to be talking
Speaker 1: about this in the new year and sharing your own
Speaker 1: story and hopefully making a pathway for others to feel
Speaker 1: more comfortable talking about it and just feel seen in
Speaker 1: their journey. So that's my mouthful to say, thank you
Speaker 1: for being here. We're very pleased for this conversation. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Yeah, I mean these topics are affecting
Speaker 1: literally everyone right now, especially with the pandemic, and money
Speaker 1: and mental health are related to everyone, and we're all
Speaker 1: going through something, whether it's one way or the other,
Speaker 1: or you know, at the intersection of both. Absolutely. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and you you paid off eighty one thousand dollars of
Speaker 1: debt and so you are acutely aware of the intersection
Speaker 1: of both. So tell me, like, what were your mental
Speaker 1: health struggles as it pertained to your debt, and like
Speaker 1: when did you start to notice the correlation between the two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just for some background for some people. So, I took
Speaker 1: out twenty three dollars for my bachelor's degree and fifty
Speaker 1: eight thousand for my masters from n y U. So
Speaker 1: I went to this fancy private school for my masters,
Speaker 1: which is where I took out the bulk of my debt.
Speaker 1: I paid the minimum for five years on my undergrad loan,
Speaker 1: and then I graduated from n y U and realized
Speaker 1: I still had sixty eight thousand dollars left despite making
Speaker 1: payments for five years. And you know, I graduated in
Speaker 1: May eleven, So wow, I cannot believe that years the
Speaker 1: code now, But you know, I graduated man, and I
Speaker 1: had all this hope and all this farther and vigger,
Speaker 1: and I thought I was going to live this amazing
Speaker 1: New York life and be in the arts world. I
Speaker 1: have my master's Screen Performance Studies, which I know is
Speaker 1: a very um esoteric arts degree, but I originally wanted
Speaker 1: to be a professor, and that plan changed midway. I
Speaker 1: realized academia is not for me. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: not actually helping people. That as much as I love
Speaker 1: to scroll around the ideas, I'm not actually on the
Speaker 1: ground with people. And prior to that, I was working
Speaker 1: with inner city communities providing free arts programs, so I
Speaker 1: felt very much on the ground helping people. And so
Speaker 1: it was kind of like this big life shift took
Speaker 1: on all this debt to make this dream happen. When
Speaker 1: I'm thirty, different job interviews in New York and got
Speaker 1: so close to the coveted full time job with benefits
Speaker 1: until I kept getting the same letter over and over again.
Speaker 1: We've gone with the other candidate. We've done with the
Speaker 1: other candidate. And to make a long story short, I
Speaker 1: ended up feeling like I couldn't afford to live in
Speaker 1: New York any longer and pay my student loans. So
Speaker 1: I moved to Portland, Oregon, which is where my then
Speaker 1: partner was living. And so I thought, Okay, we'll stop
Speaker 1: doing long distance, I'll lower my cost of live and
Speaker 1: I'll be a big fish in a small pond. And
Speaker 1: things just ended up, you know, worse. There. The economy
Speaker 1: was much smaller. I could only find jobs making ten
Speaker 1: to twelve dollars an hour, and the first couple of
Speaker 1: months I was there, I was on food stamps, which
Speaker 1: is something that I never thought that I would do ever.
Speaker 1: And so there's this kind of cognitive dissonance between what
Speaker 1: you think your life is going to look like after
Speaker 1: getting your masters from end, where are you and what
Speaker 1: the reality of your life is. And so talking about
Speaker 1: the mental health issues, I think a lot of it
Speaker 1: is this idea that we have in our head of
Speaker 1: what our life will look like, what money and debt
Speaker 1: can buy us, the fancy degree, the fancy education, the connections,
Speaker 1: and then the reality the reality that I keep getting rejected,
Speaker 1: the reality that I'm only making ten to twelve dollars
Speaker 1: an hour, the reality that I'm now on food stamps.
Speaker 1: So this huge gap in expectations versus reality caused a
Speaker 1: lot of my depression. I would say, you know, the
Speaker 1: rejection was not easy when it comes to jobs. Obviously
Speaker 1: moving across the coast again because I had moved from
Speaker 1: l A to New York, and then I had moved
Speaker 1: from New York to Portland, so you know, all of
Speaker 1: that happening in just a few years was also jarring.
Speaker 1: And having to rebuild my my network in Portland and
Speaker 1: starting over. And you know, I think with money and
Speaker 1: mental health and debt and depression, like for me, I
Speaker 1: am very risk averse when it comes to debt. And
Speaker 1: I realized this just in the past few years that
Speaker 1: the reason I hated my debt and I was so
Speaker 1: you know, hell bent I'm getting out of debt quickly,
Speaker 1: is because I'm risk averse. I have friends who are like,
Speaker 1: I'm in debt, I don't care. I was like, I
Speaker 1: wish I was that person. I wish I did not care,
Speaker 1: but it is eating me up inside every day. And
Speaker 1: so I just realized that about me that I'm very
Speaker 1: risk averse when it comes to debt. I hate owing
Speaker 1: someone money. I feel like, as long as I'm making money,
Speaker 1: but I owe someone money it is not mine. And
Speaker 1: something that I've realized is that a lot of the
Speaker 1: depression and mental health issues from debt come from this
Speaker 1: feeling that you're paying for your past. You're paying for
Speaker 1: your past, you can't really pay for your present or
Speaker 1: your future, and so you kind of get stuck in
Speaker 1: this mindset of like, I'm paying for this decision that
Speaker 1: I don't even know is going to work out, that
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like it's working out, that feels like a
Speaker 1: mistake at this point, and you know, all of twelve,
Speaker 1: I was just super depressed and anxious about my dat
Speaker 1: I you know, sought low cost counseling at the local
Speaker 1: community college and they had, you know, a graduate counseling
Speaker 1: program offering clinic hours for cheap for people like me
Speaker 1: who couldn't really afford it. And you know, it took
Speaker 1: pretty much all for me to just realize money is
Speaker 1: the problem, so I need to solve the money problem.
Speaker 1: And that's when I started my blog Dear Debt January,
Speaker 1: and I committed to paying off my debt because I said,
Speaker 1: if I can spend as much energy as I do crying, obsessing,
Speaker 1: being anxious about my debt, actually trying to have a
Speaker 1: healthy outlet for this. Maybe I can actually pay off
Speaker 1: my debt and so that one change really change the
Speaker 1: trajectory of my whole entire life and obviously my relationship
Speaker 1: with debt and also mental health and money. Wow, Melanie,
Speaker 1: there's so much in here that feels really relatable, I
Speaker 1: think for myself, and I can imagine for our listeners,
Speaker 1: even if we don't have the exact same story, this
Speaker 1: fantasy versus reality, things that we imagine for ourselves. Like
Speaker 1: what stands out to me from what you said is
Speaker 1: the fervor and the vigor, Like those two words that
Speaker 1: you said after graduating from n y U. How exciting.
Speaker 1: What a moment of high and achievement to have received
Speaker 1: your masters from a prestigious school, to then find yourself
Speaker 1: months a year later realizing, Oh, this isn't giving me
Speaker 1: what I thought that it would give me. I think
Speaker 1: that that is the story of many of us thinking
Speaker 1: life would look a certain way and it doesn't. And
Speaker 1: yet you're still reminded of it because of the debt,
Speaker 1: and then reminded of what now you're perceiving to be
Speaker 1: a mistake. How did you navigate that just even mentally
Speaker 1: thinking that what I did. What I thought was a
Speaker 1: really good idea I'm now perceiving as a mistake. Like,
Speaker 1: how did you reconcile that? Well, first I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what I did, and you know, as a lesson of
Speaker 1: what not to do. Um for probably that whole year,
Speaker 1: I just beat myself up again and again and again.
Speaker 1: It was just like, I'm so stupid and so stupid.
Speaker 1: I can't believe I quit my nonprofit job to go
Speaker 1: to to go to New York and to get into
Speaker 1: all this debt, and now I'm so broke. And I
Speaker 1: was just like on this hamster wheel in my mind, obsessing,
Speaker 1: beating myself up, and just I could not let it go.
Speaker 1: And it's like as if somehow beating myself up would
Speaker 1: absolve the shame and guilt I was feeling. You know,
Speaker 1: I had this shame for not being able to find
Speaker 1: a full time job to pay back the debt. I
Speaker 1: had this guilt of going to this fancy private school.
Speaker 1: You know, as if you know, beating yourself up would
Speaker 1: actually do anything, but it actually just keeps you stuck.
Speaker 1: So don't do what I did. But that's what I did.
Speaker 1: For like I said, about a year, and then it
Speaker 1: was at the end of when I was just like,
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for a year, Like I literally
Speaker 1: just can't go on like this. Something has to change
Speaker 1: and I don't know what that is, but I have
Speaker 1: to make some kind of movement. And that's when I
Speaker 1: discovered personal finance blogs. So, like a lot of people,
Speaker 1: I went to google how to pay off debt, and
Speaker 1: I found personal dance blogs and I read all of
Speaker 1: these entries of real people who had paid off debt.
Speaker 1: And I had never met anyone in my real life
Speaker 1: who had paid off debt, and so I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, I don't know these people, but they've paid
Speaker 1: off debt. Maybe I can too. And because I had
Speaker 1: read enough personal finance blogs, I thought I have a
Speaker 1: unique voice. My problem isn't that I overspent on credit card.
Speaker 1: This isn't that I'm gonna downsize my house or my cars.
Speaker 1: It's literally that I just paid too much for school
Speaker 1: and I'm going to try to get out of it.
Speaker 1: And you know, my story from paying off student loan
Speaker 1: debt and being a minimalist and being a low income
Speaker 1: earner because and also talking about the relationship and mental
Speaker 1: health impact of debt, because I didn't see any of
Speaker 1: that around and I was like, this feels like the
Speaker 1: elephant in the room that let me talk about it.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, Dear Debt is really born out
Speaker 1: of writing Dear John letters or breakup letters to debt.
Speaker 1: So you know, dear Debt, I'm so over you, Dear Debt,
Speaker 1: We're done. And it started as a personal project for
Speaker 1: just like I said, for me to have that creative
Speaker 1: outlet because it was eating me alive, to put it
Speaker 1: in a positive, you know spin, and then also invited
Speaker 1: others in the community to write their own breakup letters
Speaker 1: to debt. So it just expanded my view on debt
Speaker 1: and money and community and it provided so much for me.
Speaker 1: And it also was a great accountability tool because I
Speaker 1: posted my debt repayment updates every month. I posted my
Speaker 1: side hustle adventures, the winds and the fails and all
Speaker 1: the wild things I was doing to earn more money.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so really channeling that changed everything for me. Yeah, Melanie,
Speaker 1: I like how you're describing what didn't work and what
Speaker 1: does work. That shame versus kindness to yourself. That shame
Speaker 1: is not actually a beneficial motivator. It's not going to
Speaker 1: actually get us that far. We love to sit in
Speaker 1: that place, but we can become stuck there, but then
Speaker 1: finding actual creative outlets kindness to ourselves, especially over the
Speaker 1: things that we cannot change, Like what's done is done,
Speaker 1: but what do I have control over? I am curious
Speaker 1: to hear a bit more about this letter writing to debt.
Speaker 1: I think it's so creative. How did you even come
Speaker 1: up with that idea? And then I know you talked
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I'd be curious to hear more
Speaker 1: on what impact did that make on your on your
Speaker 1: specific debt payoff? Yeah, So you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: I was reading all of these blogs about money and debt,
Speaker 1: and I loved all these stories, but it just felt
Speaker 1: like jet was this idea, this thing that you couldn't touch.
Speaker 1: And I was like, how can we make debts super relatable?
Speaker 1: And I was like, everyone has relationships, whether they're romantic
Speaker 1: or friendships or familial otherwise. And I was like, I
Speaker 1: want to anthropomorphized debt into this person, this figurative being,
Speaker 1: and I want to break up with them every single
Speaker 1: day until I finally actually break up with this debt.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I thought it was a fun
Speaker 1: way to kind of personify debt and continue to break
Speaker 1: up with debt. And you know, because I have an
Speaker 1: arts background in theater and performance studies, I just thought
Speaker 1: this is like a fun creative way of creating some drama, emotion, tensions,
Speaker 1: and also to deal with these feelings that you know,
Speaker 1: writing a raw personal essay maybe I couldn't have done
Speaker 1: at that time, but putting it in letter format in
Speaker 1: this kind of creative sector made it more safe, if
Speaker 1: that makes sense, And so it really helped me in
Speaker 1: my debt repayment journey kind of deal with those unresolved
Speaker 1: feelings that were holding me back. You know, I remember
Speaker 1: one of the Dear Debt letters I wrote close to
Speaker 1: my debt repayment. I was like, dear Debt, I don't
Speaker 1: know what my life looks like without you, like you've
Speaker 1: been with me throughout my whole twenties early thirties. I
Speaker 1: literally don't know what my life looks like without you,
Speaker 1: and I'm scared. And I just remember how powerful that
Speaker 1: feeling was because we idealized this s dept Freedom, which
Speaker 1: it's amazing and I don't want to downplay that, but
Speaker 1: there was this fear of paying off my debt, like
Speaker 1: who am I without this debt? Who am I without
Speaker 1: this monthly payment? Like will I be able to stay
Speaker 1: out of debt? I hope? So I I hear so
Speaker 1: much of my story in your story, every every like
Speaker 1: thing you're saying, I can say like, oh my gosh, yes,
Speaker 1: I've I felt that because like I too. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like the credit card in the overspending thing, like there
Speaker 1: was very little I could cut in my expenses. It
Speaker 1: was just I paid too much for school and in
Speaker 1: a profession that is not it's expensive to get a
Speaker 1: degree of masters in, but it's not known for being
Speaker 1: very lucrative. And so there there came with all of
Speaker 1: this shame for making this decision, shin that seemed so dumb,
Speaker 1: but came from such like a genuinely good place, So
Speaker 1: there was there was no like I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to connect those two feelings, and I thought I deserved
Speaker 1: to beat myself up for you know, the time that
Speaker 1: I spent with the anxiety and the um with the shame,
Speaker 1: Like I thought I deserved that for my decision. Like
Speaker 1: me thinking like with no college savings and no like
Speaker 1: real knowing how to do life, thinking that I had
Speaker 1: it all figured out, and then coming out of school,
Speaker 1: like realizing I didn't. I thought I just I deserved
Speaker 1: everything I was giving myself. And so like this journey
Speaker 1: that you went on to like find that you are
Speaker 1: separate from your debt and then the feeling of like
Speaker 1: being so close to paying it off and realizing like
Speaker 1: now I've just placed my identity in this different thing,
Speaker 1: and like how am I going to get through like
Speaker 1: being without it? And that was a whole different thing
Speaker 1: to come to terms with. So like how did so
Speaker 1: how did you How is that like transition from having
Speaker 1: the debt to being debt free and how is your
Speaker 1: mental health in that? Yeah, So, first of all, I
Speaker 1: just want to mention something that I've said for the
Speaker 1: past seven eight years, and people tend to quote me
Speaker 1: a lot, but it's something kind of related to what
Speaker 1: you're saying. But something that I say often is you
Speaker 1: are not alone. You are not alone. And I think
Speaker 1: that's really important because you know, we often think that
Speaker 1: we're so alone, or we conflate our self worth with
Speaker 1: our net worth, we think that we are our debt.
Speaker 1: And that was the first money mindset transition I had
Speaker 1: to make, Like I am not my debt. I am
Speaker 1: not my money. Yes I'm broke now, Yes I'm on
Speaker 1: food stamps. Yes I'm making no money. Yes I my
Speaker 1: net worth isn't a negative. But that doesn't mean him
Speaker 1: a bad person. That doesn't mean that I left up
Speaker 1: my life forever. That doesn't mean that I'm worthless. It
Speaker 1: means that I did the best I could with the
Speaker 1: information I had at the time, and it didn't work
Speaker 1: out the way I thought, and I still ended up
Speaker 1: prevailing because I need it work. And so I think
Speaker 1: that's a crucial money mindset issue that people need to
Speaker 1: address first. Because you are not alone, and you are
Speaker 1: not alone, and you know you are not your debt.
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. And kind of what you
Speaker 1: were saying, like, how was that transition? I mean, it
Speaker 1: was all of the emotions right. It was exciting, it
Speaker 1: was invigorating, it was terrifying, it was overwhelming. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people asked me how did
Speaker 1: you pay off debt? And kind of what you were
Speaker 1: alluding to earlier, not having much to cut back on.
Speaker 1: I was a frugal minimalist, so I was like, uh,
Speaker 1: within like a month, I cut back on everything, So
Speaker 1: what do I need to do now? I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the option is literally to earn more money, Like that's
Speaker 1: the only option here, because I hit the frugality plateau
Speaker 1: really quickly, and so I side hustled all the time.
Speaker 1: My blog was leveraged into a freelance writing career, which
Speaker 1: I still do to this day. And so you know,
Speaker 1: I was able to double my income from thirty thousand
Speaker 1: to sixty thousand when I did eventually find a nonprofit
Speaker 1: job two years after graduation. And so it was you know,
Speaker 1: side hustling and self employment that really got me out
Speaker 1: of that low nonprofit not low nonprofit pay trap to
Speaker 1: pay off the debt. And also I kept my living
Speaker 1: expenses low while living in Portland. And just defin why,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to for people to know that
Speaker 1: I did not like living in Portland. I thought it
Speaker 1: was too quiet, too white. Coming from l A, New York.
Speaker 1: I was like, ah, this is not my speed. But
Speaker 1: I chose to stay there until I paid off my
Speaker 1: debt because I knew that my options would be the
Speaker 1: world to be my oyster once I was debt free.
Speaker 1: So you know, there are sacrifices, but you know, becoming
Speaker 1: debt free. I had to face this whole identity shift
Speaker 1: of like, who am I going to be without my debt?
Speaker 1: Because literally I signed them the Daughter of Line when
Speaker 1: I was seventeen from my first you know, student loans
Speaker 1: for undergrad My dad was like, here, I want to
Speaker 1: go to college finn this and uh, having to let
Speaker 1: go of this identity, and especially because I had created
Speaker 1: this blog Dear Debt around it, like I knew that
Speaker 1: that was going to change too, but I just realized
Speaker 1: that my life would open up and that I would
Speaker 1: be able to talk about so much more, which kind
Speaker 1: of led me to this women and money event I
Speaker 1: found it called Low Liberatory and now now the podcast
Speaker 1: for Mental Health and Wealth Show. Like it's opened up
Speaker 1: so many different conversations and relationships in my life and
Speaker 1: everything that I had imagined that I would do while
Speaker 1: paying off my debt, I've done, Like I've moved back
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles because I did not like living in Portland.
Speaker 1: I got cats finally, which I you know, put off
Speaker 1: because I knew it was going to be an extra expense.
Speaker 1: I took my mom to Italy. This was pre pandemic obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, so I did all of these things that
Speaker 1: I had dreamed of while I was paying off my debt.
Speaker 1: So you know, I just remember paying off my debt
Speaker 1: and seeing the balance at zero, and I was screaming
Speaker 1: and dancing and like crying all at the same time,
Speaker 1: and it just felt like a huge right was lifted
Speaker 1: off my shoulder because I didn't have to make any
Speaker 1: payments anymore. And like I said, when you stop paying
Speaker 1: for the past, your whole future and your present just
Speaker 1: opens up so much, so powerful. I love the mindset
Speaker 1: shifts that are interwoven throughout your story. Here some of
Speaker 1: the ways that you change the narrative, which takes a
Speaker 1: good deal of intentionality and something with weight to it. Right,
Speaker 1: Just affirmations that feel like flattery are not going to
Speaker 1: actually do anything for us. But when we can attach
Speaker 1: it to something that we can really believe, like what
Speaker 1: you're saying of I'm I am not alone, I am
Speaker 1: more than this. Here's the good qualities about me that
Speaker 1: I can attach to and utilize that to move forward.
Speaker 1: That's where you actually see the progress in it. I'm
Speaker 1: curious with this theme of mindset, what this has looked
Speaker 1: like for you since paying off your debt like, has
Speaker 1: your mindset about money changed as a result of becoming
Speaker 1: debt free? Oh? Absolutely, So. I recently paid off my
Speaker 1: debt December. So I recently celebrated my sixth year debt
Speaker 1: free versary, which is wild. So I've been debt free
Speaker 1: for six years and it's just night and day my
Speaker 1: you know, mindset around money. I mean, when I was
Speaker 1: paying off my debt, I was very much in scarcity, mindset,
Speaker 1: very much in fear and anxiety. Like money was a
Speaker 1: constant source of stress for me. Anytime I made a purchase,
Speaker 1: it was like it felt so hurtful, like did you
Speaker 1: make the right decision because I could have been going
Speaker 1: towards debt or I didn't enjoy money. That's just like
Speaker 1: the point blank of it. I just couldn't enjoy money.
Speaker 1: Now I can actually enjoy money, and you know, being
Speaker 1: debt free, I have been able to pay for my
Speaker 1: present and for my future, and so I actually have
Speaker 1: money and investments. I have money in retirement, I have
Speaker 1: money and savings. I you know, have a credit card
Speaker 1: that I paid off in full every single month and
Speaker 1: use the rewards, and I can enjoy things like getting
Speaker 1: sushi out or paying for my cats that visit without worrying.
Speaker 1: Like two months ago, I paid eight hundred dollars for
Speaker 1: my cats that visits and vaccines, and I was just
Speaker 1: like when they sent me the bill, but I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can pay this and it's not gonna like make
Speaker 1: me destitute and that'll be fine. And if this was
Speaker 1: six eight years ago, oh my gosh, I would have
Speaker 1: been crying in a corner feeling like I can't pay
Speaker 1: for this, like I can't afford my cats treatment, and
Speaker 1: you know it just it's so much more freeing when
Speaker 1: you had that option just throw money at the problem.
Speaker 1: And I forget. There's this quote which I really wish
Speaker 1: I knew, sets I can't to this person. I've read
Speaker 1: this quote that says, if you have a problem that
Speaker 1: money can solve, you don't have a problem. Like just
Speaker 1: throw money at money will solve it. You know. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if you don't have money to solve the problem, then
Speaker 1: you have a money problem. But if you have money
Speaker 1: that can solve the problem, we don't have a problem.
Speaker 1: Just throw money at it and like fix it, you know,
Speaker 1: And that kind of enjoyment of money, where Okay, this
Speaker 1: is a money problem, I'm just gonna throw money at
Speaker 1: the vet bill. I'm going to throw money at you know,
Speaker 1: getting take out because I'm too tired. I'm gonna throw
Speaker 1: money at this or that. Like that is beautiful because
Speaker 1: then you can really see, oh, this is the real
Speaker 1: problem here. But then obviously, like my before life, I
Speaker 1: did have a lot of any problems, Like if I
Speaker 1: only had money, then it would solve that problem. And
Speaker 1: so now I have that, and so it's it's a
Speaker 1: lot more free. Yeah, it sounds like there's a combination here,
Speaker 1: And as with all of us, circumstances and perspective that
Speaker 1: sometimes are circumstances. When they change, it really does help
Speaker 1: other aspects of our personhood. And sometimes it's perspective shifts.
Speaker 1: Usually it's a combination of both, and for you it
Speaker 1: was and probably for all of us too, First a
Speaker 1: perspective shift which enables us to make circumstantial shifts which
Speaker 1: then can lead to just over all greater well being.
Speaker 1: For you, now being debt free and having gone through
Speaker 1: some both perspective and circumstantial shifts, what have you seen
Speaker 1: as it relates to your mental health? Like now now
Speaker 1: having different circumstances coming from a place of realizing there
Speaker 1: was depression present here. What are you seeing now? I'm
Speaker 1: not going to imagine that debt freedom is like the
Speaker 1: end all the y'all. So what happened? You don't struggle
Speaker 1: with anything now? Right's perfect free? That freedom is definitely
Speaker 1: not just like the magical in your life is you know,
Speaker 1: suddenly free of problems, Like you know, there's this same
Speaker 1: new level, new devil. And I'm totally feeling that right now,
Speaker 1: like whatever new level you're at, there's going to be
Speaker 1: a new devil tonting you. And I think that's absolutely
Speaker 1: true because it's like, Okay, I'm debt free now, but
Speaker 1: now I'm aggressively trying to invest in save. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to build my self employment career and build my income
Speaker 1: and my assets, and so that's been a different challenge. Um,
Speaker 1: I think to your point on the mental health issue,
Speaker 1: So you talk about this a lot in my podcast,
Speaker 1: The Mental Health and Wealth Show, as well as my
Speaker 1: book Your Debt. But I have clinical depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: and o c D. And I'm not ashamed to say that,
Speaker 1: but a lot of the debt related depression was situational
Speaker 1: based on my debt. So I just want to acknowledge.
Speaker 1: There are two different, you know types of depression. One
Speaker 1: clinical you know, psychiatrist says you have this, I may
Speaker 1: or may not prescribe you meds, go to therapy, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Or you know, situational depression around a pandemic debt,
Speaker 1: you know, grieving a loved one. That's all normal too.
Speaker 1: So you know, I've had both. And so what's been
Speaker 1: interesting is, you know, paying off my debt, like I said,
Speaker 1: solve the situational depression. But an interesting thing happened. It's
Speaker 1: like almost the clinical depression and anxiety just came creeping back, like, hey,
Speaker 1: remember I exist. I was overshadowed by the situational depression,
Speaker 1: but I'm here, and so you know, it's like all
Speaker 1: of these things that you might have just have lost
Speaker 1: perspective on in your life suddenly becomes the forefront. So, um,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've shared this before. This isn't exactly a secret,
Speaker 1: but I guess I haven't framed it in this way.
Speaker 1: But um so I paid off my debt December ten,
Speaker 1: and like within that first year, I moved back to
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, I took my mom to Italy. I got cats.
Speaker 1: A year and a half later. That was all on
Speaker 1: my debt free dream list. But my relationship of nine
Speaker 1: years ended up completely imploding. Like a year and a
Speaker 1: half after paying off my debt, my mental health issues
Speaker 1: just went totally heywire. I had to get back on
Speaker 1: medication for the first time after a ten year hiatus.
Speaker 1: I was in therapy for like three and a half years.
Speaker 1: So kind of, like I said, you have other life
Speaker 1: issues that might maybe you might have been neglecting, like
Speaker 1: you know, that might be in the background, but then
Speaker 1: suddenly you've solved this problem. Oh look at all these
Speaker 1: other problems that you've been collecting. So I went through
Speaker 1: a huge life shift, you know, a year and a
Speaker 1: half after paying off my debt, where just my whole
Speaker 1: world completely change. You know, this person that I thought
Speaker 1: I would be with forever is now no longer my partner,
Speaker 1: you know, learning to live alone again, um, and also
Speaker 1: having that money to be able to do that. Like
Speaker 1: I stayed in the apartment, he did not I could
Speaker 1: afford to continue to stay there, like, you know, to
Speaker 1: deal with all of these life shifts. So obviously my
Speaker 1: life was not you know, perfect and a dream. Afterwards,
Speaker 1: it kind of got much worse after that, but then
Speaker 1: now it's much better again. And you know, I was
Speaker 1: so happy that I had money to be able to
Speaker 1: deal with those problems because, like I said, if you
Speaker 1: have money, then you don't have a problem. And I
Speaker 1: remember dealing with such grief about that relationship ending that
Speaker 1: I was just like kind of had this feeling like
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter as much, which I won't say
Speaker 1: that's healthy, Like I think when you're deep and grief
Speaker 1: and you realize money can't buy certain things, like it
Speaker 1: can't make the relationship work, it can't bring a person back,
Speaker 1: it can't you know, you have a different perspective um.
Speaker 1: But I will say like I was overspending at that
Speaker 1: time because I just didn't care. And that's like a
Speaker 1: different kind of bad money mindset behavior that you can
Speaker 1: fall into during times of deep depression and mental health.
Speaker 1: Which is why I'm so passionate about talking about mental
Speaker 1: health and money, because it's like your mental health state
Speaker 1: can affect how you manage your finances, your financial state
Speaker 1: can affect your mental health, and there are so many
Speaker 1: different situations at the intersection that just are so tied
Speaker 1: together that we just don't talk about. Melanie Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for your vulnerability and sharing these different parts
Speaker 1: of your journey that hold pain. There are definitely the
Speaker 1: dirties and triumphs and joy and here, and there are
Speaker 1: low points and barriers and difficulties and grief and loss
Speaker 1: here too, and again just so relatable. I think what
Speaker 1: stands out to me and what you're describing here is, Yeah, circumstantial,
Speaker 1: circumstantial shifts are helpful. Getting out of debt does have
Speaker 1: great freedoms to it, but it doesn't solve all of
Speaker 1: our problems. However, I will also say that I would
Speaker 1: imagine and I think some of your story is alluding
Speaker 1: to this. What you went through, the journey that you've
Speaker 1: been on, of writing letters to your debt, shifting your
Speaker 1: mind set, taking control of what you can take control
Speaker 1: of and letting go of what you can't, builds resilience
Speaker 1: in you and the ability to then face what comes next.
Speaker 1: That there were still difficulties, you still wake up the
Speaker 1: same person that you were, so of the core aspects
Speaker 1: of it, right, some things have shifted, but something stick
Speaker 1: with us. And yet it still is not for nothing
Speaker 1: because of the strength and the resilience that that builds
Speaker 1: in you. Two then take on and tackle the next
Speaker 1: issue that arises, and the next issue that arises, all
Speaker 1: the while recognizing that you have set yourself up to
Speaker 1: handle it better and in a more beneficial way each
Speaker 1: step of the journey. Yes, and I love that you
Speaker 1: mentioned the word resilient. I literally have a tattoo that
Speaker 1: says resilient on my wrist, So I thought that when
Speaker 1: my life was funny, It's like, that's a reminder for
Speaker 1: myself that I can see every day. So that's so
Speaker 1: funny that you mentioned that. But yeah, I totally agree, Like,
Speaker 1: you solve one problem that builds your strength and resilience,
Speaker 1: and then you can do so much better at whatever
Speaker 1: life throws your way. Then, and you know, whether it's
Speaker 1: a money issue or not, you can totally like throw
Speaker 1: money the problem if you have that as a resource,
Speaker 1: and then you also just realize what's truly important that's
Speaker 1: not money related all either. Absolutely, And I hope for
Speaker 1: all of our listeners who are hearing this, who may
Speaker 1: be stuck in a cycle of fear, that's says it's
Speaker 1: easier to focus on this problem of debt than it
Speaker 1: is to focus on other problems. So I'll stay in
Speaker 1: the cycle of debt because and and I'm sure that
Speaker 1: it's not even something like I can see myself doing
Speaker 1: something like this, not like like totally on purpose, but
Speaker 1: like saying like this is an easier problem to deal
Speaker 1: with and to feel anxiety about than the bigger problems
Speaker 1: that maybe on the back burner. And so I hope
Speaker 1: if anybody is kind of is you know like me,
Speaker 1: and that that there's hearing like freedom and permission and
Speaker 1: hope that like you can build your resiliency to to
Speaker 1: you know, deal with with all of these problems and
Speaker 1: come out stronger on the other side. Obviously, like Melanie
Speaker 1: as you have like this really like um like well
Speaker 1: known personal finance writer um with a really successful like
Speaker 1: in person and virtual retreat Like it's I mean, from
Speaker 1: where you were is so relatable and where you are
Speaker 1: now anybody could dream to be. So I just I
Speaker 1: hope people are putting the dots together to like know
Speaker 1: that that's a possibility for everyone. Yes, do you know
Speaker 1: what else holds hope and possibility and every bills resilience?
Speaker 1: What that's right, It's time for the best minute of
Speaker 1: your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his
Speaker 1: name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe
Speaker 1: your car died, and you're happy to not have to
Speaker 1: pay that bill anymore. That's bill Buffalo Bills, Bill Clint.
Speaker 1: This is the bill of the week, Melanie. Every week
Speaker 1: we invite our listeners or our guests to share with
Speaker 1: us their bill of the week, and so we hope
Speaker 1: that you have one to share with our listeners today. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this is incredibly boring but meaningful for me. So
Speaker 1: I recently got my anthem bill for my health insurance
Speaker 1: for January one, and I happily paid it. It's like
Speaker 1: three d and fifteen dollars, not exactly cheap as a
Speaker 1: self employed person, but I'm so grateful that I can
Speaker 1: afford to pay that because while I was paying off
Speaker 1: my debt, there was about a year or two that
Speaker 1: I went without health insurance. This was pre Affordable Care
Speaker 1: Act and penalties, so it was extremely scary. And so
Speaker 1: I just feel so grateful that, like I said, I
Speaker 1: can throw money at the problem. Yes, got the still covered.
Speaker 1: So that's my bill of the weeks, my health insurance bill.
Speaker 1: It's meaningful to me that I can pay it right now,
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to do it. So Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Health insurance is so so so important and also so
Speaker 1: so so expensive, and it's it's heartbreaking, but um, that
Speaker 1: is amazing that you're able to do that. This is
Speaker 1: such a common bill, which which I never thought when
Speaker 1: we created this segment, I never imagined this would be
Speaker 1: part of it. I'm so thrilled to see it. Of
Speaker 1: being pleased to pay for something, I think oftentimes in
Speaker 1: the frugal mindset, debt free mindset is how can I
Speaker 1: get as much as possible for as little as possible,
Speaker 1: or free or not have to pay for things. And
Speaker 1: there's a place for some of that, but then the
Speaker 1: real freedom that comes from I don't mind paying for this.
Speaker 1: I'm willing to pay for this. I'm glad I can
Speaker 1: afford this, and the gratitude attached to that. It's it's
Speaker 1: such a unique bill. I know you say boring, but
Speaker 1: I think it really does highlight and illuminate the benefits
Speaker 1: of being debt free that we can come to this
Speaker 1: point of it's not heart wrenching every time we shell
Speaker 1: out money for something, especially if it holds value and
Speaker 1: is helpful for us. So absolutely, Melanie, I'm just celebrating
Speaker 1: with you that you are pleased to pay for your
Speaker 1: health insurance, that you are able to afford your health insurance.
Speaker 1: And it is not a heart wrenching experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're living in a pandemic right now, and so it's
Speaker 1: like I want to feel protected as much as possible.
Speaker 1: I don't want to worry if I have a little
Speaker 1: you know, scratch in my throat or have any other issues.
Speaker 1: And you know, also this pandemic has taught me that
Speaker 1: if you don't have your mental or physical health, you
Speaker 1: really don't have anything. And to be honest, when I
Speaker 1: was hearing you talk, I was just getting like kind
Speaker 1: of triggered, not necessarily in a bad way, but it
Speaker 1: triggered a thought of like I mean, in America, you
Speaker 1: a lot of bankruptcies are because of medical debt, and
Speaker 1: that is one thing I'm terrified of, and I think
Speaker 1: probably a lot of Americans are. It's like, you have
Speaker 1: one kind of medical event and so many people can
Speaker 1: just be utterly messed up and in debt, and you know,
Speaker 1: cause bankruptcy over that. And obviously, like I don't want
Speaker 1: that to happen, um, but it can still happen, you know,
Speaker 1: with insurance but obviously having that insurance can help mitigate
Speaker 1: the total cost. So it's also a kind of debt
Speaker 1: reduction strategy in that way of like, Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: want to like file medical bankruptcy. Uh you know, hopefully
Speaker 1: that will never happen, but you know, you just I've
Speaker 1: done my research as a personal finance writer, and like,
Speaker 1: I think there's like six of bankruptcies or medical debt
Speaker 1: or something. Don't quote me in that, but if I
Speaker 1: remember correctly, I think it's something high like that, which
Speaker 1: I don't know either. It is high, it is a majority. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and yeah, it's one of those things that we
Speaker 1: can pay. We pay more upfront, but we save more
Speaker 1: in the long run if we do avoid one of
Speaker 1: these like big bankruptcy worthy like emergencies. And so that's
Speaker 1: I mean, really what frugality is about. It's not just
Speaker 1: a race to the bottom right now, but it's thinking
Speaker 1: long term. It's planning and having a holistic view of
Speaker 1: life and finances. And so we yeah, we love hearing
Speaker 1: the bills that people happily pay. If you want to
Speaker 1: submit your bill of the week, if it's related to
Speaker 1: something that you don't mind paying, or a bill that
Speaker 1: you got out of paying visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com,
Speaker 1: slash bill, leave us your bill. We love to hear it.
Speaker 1: And now it's time for the lightning round. The lightning round,
Speaker 1: So today a in this is typically the time of
Speaker 1: the episode where we get vulnerable, but like we've just
Speaker 1: been vulnerable at the time, so like, why stop, now,
Speaker 1: let's keep going up. We are gonna We're going to
Speaker 1: talk about a mental health struggle that we've each had
Speaker 1: around finances recently or in the past, and like how
Speaker 1: we overcame it if it has been overcome. So Melanie
Speaker 1: as our guest, we would love to have you go first. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think a recent money mindset and mental health issue
Speaker 1: has just been learning to charge more and to ask
Speaker 1: for more. You know, I've been a freelance writer now
Speaker 1: for seven years and my rates increased significantly in twe
Speaker 1: after kind of not doing so well in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: and it had to deal with kind of this fear
Speaker 1: of asking for more or this like am I being greedy?
Speaker 1: And so you know that has affected my mental health
Speaker 1: because then it's like, oh my gosh, was I under
Speaker 1: charging and you know, under selling myself? And oh my good,
Speaker 1: and like the guilt from that and then am I
Speaker 1: allowed to ask for this much? And so you know,
Speaker 1: I think for women in particular, asking for more can
Speaker 1: seem like you're greedy or like, you know, you should
Speaker 1: just be happy with what you get. But it's like, no,
Speaker 1: we need to be asking for more and we need
Speaker 1: to be negotiating and that needs to be normal and normalized.
Speaker 1: And so that's been kind of a recent money mental
Speaker 1: health issue that's been affecting me in my work and
Speaker 1: my money for the past year or so. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the negative self talk that can associate that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just heard you say, like I've got guilt or
Speaker 1: I'm labeling myself as greedy potentially, and again that mindset
Speaker 1: and money going hand in hand, mental health and finances
Speaker 1: of certain things that we do or choose could lead
Speaker 1: us to think something about ourselves that is not actually
Speaker 1: beneficial but shifting it. And it's okay to have those thoughts.
Speaker 1: It's like, am I being greedy? Okay, you can't stop
Speaker 1: yourself from asking that question, But then what do you
Speaker 1: do with that thought of No, actually, I am accurately
Speaker 1: assessing my experiences, my skill set, the value that I
Speaker 1: bring and asking more, and worst case scenario, people say
Speaker 1: no and we either choose to say, well then see
Speaker 1: you later, or all right, there's negotiation here. But yeah,
Speaker 1: those pieces that just aren't helpful for moving us forward,
Speaker 1: like the negative self talk. Yeah. So so mine is
Speaker 1: very similar because I, I think, but instead of um,
Speaker 1: instead of like raising rates, I actually gave up freelance
Speaker 1: writing because I had other things going on. But like,
Speaker 1: I find a lot of my self worth in what
Speaker 1: I accomplish and when I get done and how much
Speaker 1: money I make. And so this year, in order to
Speaker 1: live in the financial freedom that I've created for myself,
Speaker 1: I had to take a temporary I chose to take
Speaker 1: a temporary pay cut to let go of things that
Speaker 1: I did not want to do and do more of
Speaker 1: the things that I enjoy doing, which is a reason
Speaker 1: I paid off my debt and started working for myself
Speaker 1: so that I could do that. But I wasn't letting
Speaker 1: myself do that because of the fear of having to
Speaker 1: do all of these things to make money to show
Speaker 1: that I was like accomplishing, you know, that I was accomplished,
Speaker 1: that I was successful. And so this year I let
Speaker 1: go of everything except for frugal friends, which is what
Speaker 1: I enjoy doing most. And it was definitely not making
Speaker 1: the most money. And just let go of my last
Speaker 1: freelance writing clients. So I am financially fine. It's like
Speaker 1: I didn't need to be doing a million things to
Speaker 1: be making a ton of money, like and to to
Speaker 1: reach some kind of arbitrary savings goal or savings rate,
Speaker 1: you know, and it need to be doing that, and
Speaker 1: I so when I let it go, I have had
Speaker 1: It's been just so much less stress the last six
Speaker 1: months of the years. I mean December, I was literally
Speaker 1: out the entire month either out of illness or five
Speaker 1: days of it was vacation, but the rest of it
Speaker 1: was illness, and I did not get behind because I
Speaker 1: just had my things that I was working on. And
Speaker 1: so it has it's been great, and it will lead
Speaker 1: to more money next year than I've probably ever made
Speaker 1: in any business ever before. But it was this like mindset,
Speaker 1: the thing of letting go of income. It was just
Speaker 1: very hard to do. It's very hard with me. I
Speaker 1: tell you, it's good to be with you on the
Speaker 1: journey gen and see some of these shifts and the
Speaker 1: things that I think hold fear, but but not allowing
Speaker 1: that to be debilitating and still moving through it, like
Speaker 1: choosing it anyways, even though it's risk gy and it
Speaker 1: holds fear to it. But then the pieces that you're
Speaker 1: describing are helpful in that that you actually enjoy it
Speaker 1: and you've got people around you championing you. At least
Speaker 1: I'm claiming that I champion you. I love you, Jill,
Speaker 1: tell us about yours. So for me, I'm going back
Speaker 1: in the archives not to say I don't still struggle
Speaker 1: with mental health, but this is what occurred to me
Speaker 1: first when you asked this question, Jim, when I was
Speaker 1: in the midst of debt and debt payoff, a version
Speaker 1: of hopelessness. I can't describe myself as like entirely hopeless,
Speaker 1: but those things would surface at times, just this overall
Speaker 1: general feeling of down casteness inside myself about the pit
Speaker 1: that I felt that I was in, especially with the
Speaker 1: combo of debt and low income. For long time listeners,
Speaker 1: you know this, but anyone new to the show. My degrees,
Speaker 1: both of them I undergrad and graduate to Grease, are
Speaker 1: in social work, so you can imagine the threshold of
Speaker 1: income that exists within that field, and so having debt
Speaker 1: for you know, going to school, having the loans that
Speaker 1: I took out, and then pairing that with income that
Speaker 1: was never going to ever get me out of it.
Speaker 1: Just it just felt really overwhelming and a little bit
Speaker 1: debilitating and crushing. And so I think for me overcoming
Speaker 1: that it did have a lot to do with changing
Speaker 1: my circumstances. I think, feeling the weight and pressure of something,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to get up out
Speaker 1: under it until I see that circumstance shift. And so
Speaker 1: for me, I think maintaining hope and determination was a
Speaker 1: really difficult part of that, Like, this feels debilitating, but
Speaker 1: how do I keep moving forward? And so a lot
Speaker 1: of that did for me personally have to do with
Speaker 1: my faith that is like an anchoring component for me,
Speaker 1: and then support a around me community. My husband was
Speaker 1: super supportive through that time, finding friends like you, Jen
Speaker 1: and other friends who I felt really were trustworthy and
Speaker 1: believed in me, and having that support around me, whether
Speaker 1: or not it actually had to do with me talking
Speaker 1: about my finances. There's those who are just care for
Speaker 1: me in the midst of whatever it is that I'm
Speaker 1: going through. And then of course changing circumstances, finding ways
Speaker 1: to be creative, implement what I believe I'm best at
Speaker 1: where my skill set is to actually, like you said, Melanie,
Speaker 1: increase income. Like that that came became the point where
Speaker 1: all right, this is this is all I'm making right now,
Speaker 1: this is my debt. I have cut out literally every
Speaker 1: single thing that can possibly cut out, So how can
Speaker 1: I increase income? And so implementing that creativity calling upon
Speaker 1: my own skill set to find some of those solutions
Speaker 1: was really helpful, and I think finding fun ways to
Speaker 1: do it along the way I mentioned creativity for me
Speaker 1: that's paired with fun. My husband in and I like
Speaker 1: did side hustles that I thought were fun, and that
Speaker 1: was really helpful to be able to find some joy
Speaker 1: and laughter as I try and clawed my way out
Speaker 1: of that pit. I know you were you b y
Speaker 1: O Bartenders. I thought that was my favorite side hustle.
Speaker 1: You we also were DJ dance it Out, honey. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. Well, thank you so much Melanie for sharing
Speaker 1: your story. And I think this was a unique side
Speaker 1: of debt payoff that we don't get to dive into
Speaker 1: very much so in depth, and so I hope that
Speaker 1: we've given a lot of people hope in this episode,
Speaker 1: So thank you. Where can people find more from you? Yes,
Speaker 1: you can find me at Dear Debt, at Mental Health
Speaker 1: and Wealth dot com, Lola Retreat dot com. You can
Speaker 1: check out my book Dear Debt on Amazon, also the
Speaker 1: Mental Health and Wealth Show and all podcast platforms. And
Speaker 1: you could find me on social media at Melanie Lockert.
Speaker 1: And thanks so much for having me to school. Fantastic.
Speaker 1: Oh so good to have you, Melanie. So many places
Speaker 1: to find you and engage with you. That's so exciting.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here. That was really good. I'm really
Speaker 1: glad that we got to devote an entire episode to
Speaker 1: these topics because I think I can't believe that I'm
Speaker 1: the only one who was listening to her talk and
Speaker 1: being like yes, yes, uh huh uh huh. It spoke
Speaker 1: to me on so many levels. I mean, we both
Speaker 1: love anytime we can weave in a conversation about our
Speaker 1: whole person and mental health. And you know, especially for me,
Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled to be having these conversations. So and
Speaker 1: I think that she just gave such a relatable perspective
Speaker 1: but with some really tangible tools that we can all
Speaker 1: implement like just that idea. I know we highlighted it
Speaker 1: for her story, but I also want to highlight it
Speaker 1: as a resource for us all to write letters to
Speaker 1: the things that feel like barriers to us, to the
Speaker 1: things that feel like they're holding us back. I think
Speaker 1: we often can think, well, if I ignore it, that
Speaker 1: that's going to be better. But in reality, when we
Speaker 1: can face something and name it and even talk to it,
Speaker 1: it takes out the mystery of it and the power
Speaker 1: that it holds over us. So whether that is writing
Speaker 1: a letter to our debt or writing a letter to
Speaker 1: whatever mental health concern we're facing right now, I think
Speaker 1: it could be absolutely appropriate to also write a letter
Speaker 1: to our shame, write a letter to our anxiety, write
Speaker 1: a letter to what any of these barriers that are
Speaker 1: getting in the way. To personify it, it is actually
Speaker 1: again we didn't highlight this in the episode, but it's
Speaker 1: it is an actually therapeutic tool. I know it's utilized
Speaker 1: a lot in the addiction and recovery space. Write a
Speaker 1: letter to your addiction, write a letter too, and it
Speaker 1: can help us to not only um break up with it.
Speaker 1: Right if we want to, like write a breakup letter.
Speaker 1: But it can help us to understand ourselves more. It
Speaker 1: can help us to realize what is actually holding us back,
Speaker 1: what is my interaction and relationship with this thing. So
Speaker 1: it creates an understanding, realizations, It creates a pathway forward.
Speaker 1: It names the thing, it normalizes the thing. It takes
Speaker 1: away the power and the mystery of the thing. So
Speaker 1: for so many reasons, I would encourage any one of
Speaker 1: us identify what's the biggest barrier right now, write a
Speaker 1: letter to it. Don't avoid it. That's not actually going
Speaker 1: to solve the problem. So I love what she did there,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a really powerful component of her
Speaker 1: own de payoff story that weaves in our men total health. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and it separates the debt from your personhood. So when
Speaker 1: you feel like you are part of your debt or
Speaker 1: debt is part of your identity, writing these letters can
Speaker 1: separate it from yourself. So yeah, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. We want to thank you for listening, tuning
Speaker 1: in and your kind reviews. The more you review us,
Speaker 1: well you can only view us review us once, but
Speaker 1: the more of you who review can help us share
Speaker 1: this podcast with more people, and so they two can
Speaker 1: find the tools and resources to solve the the guilt
Speaker 1: and the shame and the situational depression that comes from
Speaker 1: personal finances and money. So like this review right here
Speaker 1: just happens to be five stars from Ryan Egan Lyon,
Speaker 1: and he says, I love it. I do. Jen and
Speaker 1: Jill's podcast is informative and fun. I can't say for
Speaker 1: sure how I found them in this overpacked, media hyped world,
Speaker 1: but I did. I listened in the morning while walking
Speaker 1: my dog, and I'm here to tell you I've never
Speaker 1: removed my headphones angry or sad. I'm far from well
Speaker 1: muscled financial person, so I appreciate their clarity, guest selection,
Speaker 1: and relevant episodes that matter to those of us surviving
Speaker 1: this experiment in capitalism. I haven't only grown my financial
Speaker 1: literacy listening to these two, but I'm a better human too.
Speaker 1: How Yeah, he's in our Financial Freedom Mentorship, He's been
Speaker 1: a listener for a long time, and he does write
Speaker 1: great things. So we appreciate this, Ryan. The thing that
Speaker 1: stands out to me, Ryan is this never removing the headphones,
Speaker 1: angry or sad, and it almost like that. I love it,
Speaker 1: But it also hit me that just the responsibility of
Speaker 1: that too, though, that there are so many times that
Speaker 1: I can relate to that I've listened to something and
Speaker 1: I might walk away, and not that I can't ever
Speaker 1: promise that we won't do that to somebody. I mean,
Speaker 1: various things can make us angry or sad, but oh,
Speaker 1: I'm really glad to hear that that's true for you, Ryan,
Speaker 1: And it is not our goal to make people like sad,
Speaker 1: And absolutely I love that that's the case for you,
Speaker 1: all right. We also want to thank our friends who
Speaker 1: share these episodes on social media, So when you share
Speaker 1: the latest episode on Instagram, we're adding you to our
Speaker 1: monthly drawing. Here's what it is. For every five tags
Speaker 1: and reviews we get each month, we're giving away fifty
Speaker 1: dollars for you to spend in the Frugal Friends shop.
Speaker 1: Who so keep leaving us reviews wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: podcasts and sending the screenshot to reviews at Frugal Friends
Speaker 1: podcast dot com, and don't forget to tag us on
Speaker 1: social when you share the latest episode. See you next
Speaker 1: week everyone. Bye. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric syrian
Speaker 1: O jill Um. I have already word vomited on you
Speaker 1: about my December, but typically were we typically we record
Speaker 1: these episodes a month in advance, but f y, I,
Speaker 1: this is about ten days before this episode comes out.
Speaker 1: So this is probably as real time as you'll get
Speaker 1: us on the show because December has just been December.
Speaker 1: I don't want to remember. Yeah, I've had a relatively
Speaker 1: front row seat to your December, and I can understand
Speaker 1: a bit of why you're saying that it has been
Speaker 1: a really rough one for you, and I'm so sad
Speaker 1: about that. I'm hoping for you January is better. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is there a letter you can write after this? Is
Speaker 1: that relevant for you? Okay? Dear December, Um, you were
Speaker 1: filled with so much illness, so much annoyance, um, but
Speaker 1: also some really good things, some great things for the
Speaker 1: podcasts future, a really like nice time away for Travis
Speaker 1: and eyes. So like, there are so many things I
Speaker 1: hate about you, but also so many things that I
Speaker 1: wouldn't trade for the world. And so as people, we
Speaker 1: are all this dichotomy of our our worst possible selves
Speaker 1: and our best possible selves. And December, I feel like
Speaker 1: that's what you've given to me. You have you have
Speaker 1: given me life's worst and life's best, And I wasn't
Speaker 1: prepared for it all in one month, but I think
Speaker 1: it will in the future proof to have made me
Speaker 1: more resilient and so December by seeing ever, But thank you,
Speaker 1: love Jen or sincerely Jen, I love Chen. That was beautiful.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you were able to just do for
Speaker 1: anyone listening that was not written out like this is
Speaker 1: anyone's remaining till the end. That was off, the raw
Speaker 1: and real. But you know what, Jen, I heard so
Speaker 1: much realization come out of that, like the holding the
Speaker 1: tension of the good and bad. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what this process can give to us, is really seeing
Speaker 1: it for what it is and giving us perspective that
Speaker 1: December feels like it really sucked, but then in looking
Speaker 1: at it, it took some of the mystery out of
Speaker 1: it and you saw what's good too. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: not wanting to repeat it, but yeah, just because there
Speaker 1: was good thing doesn't mean I want to hold onto it.
Speaker 1: I'm done with it, but I can recognize the good
Speaker 1: amidst the bad, and I do accept. I am angry
Speaker 1: about the bad stuff, but I'm ready to move on. Happy, happy, everyone,
Speaker 1: And I encourage you to write your own letters. How
Speaker 1: amazing and cathartic and beautiful, and yes, let us know,
Speaker 1: let us know what you're breaking up with, anything or
Speaker 1: anyone you want. Yeah, let us and let us know
Speaker 1: what or who it is by December