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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey, Paul, I'm doing really well.

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Speaker 1: We are at the end of January, and it's very

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Speaker 1: very cold, and it's probably seventy five degrees here. It's

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Speaker 1: so cold I can't even come on. No, it's a

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Speaker 1: little older than that. But but we don't, you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't get crazy cold weather. So I have a dream,

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Speaker 1: and you tell me if it's a realistic dream or not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay.

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Speaker 1: I dream of having like a farm or a ranch

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Speaker 1: or something in New England with enough property so that

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Speaker 1: I can snowmobile all across that property and travel everywhere

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Speaker 1: on a snowmobile, even to the little town that you

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Speaker 1: know we'll be living outside of, which you know is

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Speaker 1: a to be determined later on. Is that realistic or

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Speaker 1: is snowmobiling a lot more complicated and impossible to? Are

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Speaker 1: you gonna kill my dream here?

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Speaker 2: No? In fact, I've never been on a snowmobile, so

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Speaker 2: I have no personal experience on what's possible or not.

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Speaker 1: You've never been on a snowmobil, really, I've never have.

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Speaker 1: Do people not use those often in Colorado? Again, this

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Speaker 1: is gonna kill my dream a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, not around the city, no, but you know you can.

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Speaker 2: You can definitely you see people who will take the

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Speaker 2: snowmobills out, you know, see them on trailers and they're

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Speaker 2: going out, you know, into the woodlands if you will

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Speaker 2: to snowmobile. And then there's adventures that you can, you know,

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Speaker 2: hire people to go out on snowmoll bills, and we

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Speaker 2: even consider doing that at one point, but I just

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Speaker 2: haven't done it. You know, I'm obviously familiar with snowmobiles

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Speaker 2: and can kind of guess as to what you can

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Speaker 2: do if if you've got you know, enough open space

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Speaker 2: or trails that the snowmal bills will fit on. You

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Speaker 2: could probably get anywhere you need to go on that

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Speaker 2: type of property.

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Speaker 1: Okay, don't talk any more about it, because I think

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Speaker 1: you're gonna throw up some kind of a weird red flag,

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Speaker 1: like you investigated a case where someone intentionally ran over

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Speaker 1: someone's leg with the like.

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Speaker 2: Again, I've never had a crime scene in the snow,

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Speaker 2: so I can't even claim that I've got a case

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Speaker 2: involving a snowmobile.

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Speaker 1: Will you ever get called into an active case in Colorado?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is that what you're kind of doing now

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Speaker 1: if they needed your help?

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Speaker 2: Well, when you say an active case, like I have

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Speaker 2: gone out to some cold case crime scenes and assisted

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Speaker 2: local authorities, But in terms of being called out to

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Speaker 2: a case that just happened, don't, I don't see that occurring.

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Speaker 2: At least there isn't a There'd have to be a

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Speaker 2: pre arrangement that I would be available to go out,

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Speaker 2: and right now there isn't. And you know, unless they

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Speaker 2: have something really weird. You know, I don't have the

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Speaker 2: relationship with local law enforcement here in Colorado that I

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Speaker 2: did back you know, in my old jurisdiction, where you

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Speaker 2: know people and of course I was active at the time,

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Speaker 2: so there's that difference. But the people knew what my

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Speaker 2: areas of expertise were and when they would catch a case,

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Speaker 2: you know that they thought I could assist on from

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Speaker 2: the very beginning. You know, I would get the phone

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Speaker 2: call in the middle of the night and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm coming out.

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Speaker 1: Do you miss those? Do you miss the phone calls

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night. I mean every once in

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Speaker 1: a while, would you take one if if somebody heard?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure. You know, there is a there's

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Speaker 2: an adrenaline dump when you have something like that. Happened

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Speaker 2: as I got older, you know, the lack of sleep

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Speaker 2: and stuff became problematic. But when you get the call

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Speaker 2: and you're going, wow, this is an interesting case, then

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Speaker 2: the adrenalist starts going and getting out on the crime

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Speaker 2: scene and having to think, you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 2: big thing. Is we gotta we gotta take this step

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Speaker 2: by step. And also just having there's an ego boost

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Speaker 2: knowing that these are people who want me out here

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Speaker 2: because of you know, what I'm capable of doing. You know,

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Speaker 2: so there is it's it is something that I absolutely miss,

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Speaker 2: but I don't miss the lack of sleep. And even

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Speaker 2: when I was still working. In the last year, Oh,

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Speaker 2: we had a very interesting serial killer emerging in an

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Speaker 2: apartment complex. It was three am in the morning, and

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Speaker 2: I was just standing there, going, I've been here, done

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Speaker 2: this before. I really want to go home and get

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Speaker 2: some sleep.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so you had that moment where you just

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Speaker 1: said this at some point, it seems like an unsustainable lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: but it's sustainable for people for decades and decades that

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Speaker 1: stay in it, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, you know. And I've you know, I've got

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Speaker 2: some homicide friends, if you will, that they've been in

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Speaker 2: the industry as long as I have and are still

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Speaker 2: being called out. And I'm just like, I don't know

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Speaker 2: how you do it.

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Speaker 1: Well, this was a long strange road from my dream

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Speaker 1: of driving a snowmobile around my property.

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Speaker 2: But if you have that much property, maybe you'd find

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Speaker 2: a body or two out there.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Paul, hopefully from hundreds of years ago.

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Speaker 1: And that's about it. We'll see And on that note,

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Speaker 1: we are going to go. But I'm dragging you back

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Speaker 1: into the eighteen hundreds. I feel like I've lulled you

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Speaker 1: into some sort of comfort of having photos because we

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Speaker 1: were in the nineteen hundreds and now we are no photos,

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Speaker 1: zero photos. Sorry, no photos. But this is a really

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Speaker 1: I think good story that people. I've had multiple people say,

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Speaker 1: can you guys talk about this, which is a little surprising,

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Speaker 1: but I think that you'll see the family dynamics and

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Speaker 1: particularly the main person is pretty interesting. Okay, let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and set the scene. We are in Ohio. We're

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Speaker 1: in Gustafus, which is a rural agricultural area in Trumbull County, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: and this is eighteen thirty two. This is one of

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Speaker 1: our older cases for sure. We are talking about the

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Speaker 1: Gardiner family and it is thirty nine year old Ira

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Speaker 1: Westgardner and his wife the same age, and her name

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Speaker 1: is Anna Logan Gardener, and they've been married about eight years,

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Speaker 1: so for eighteen thirty two. They got married late in life.

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Speaker 1: It's because Anna was married before. So they have four

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Speaker 1: children total, two from a relationship that Anna had before

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Speaker 1: they were married, and then they had two kids together,

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Speaker 1: two of their own, okay, two of their own. And

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Speaker 1: they live on a this is my dream poll two

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Speaker 1: hundred acre plot of farmland that Ira rents from someone

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Speaker 1: else and will meet that someone else in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So the central part of this story is a young

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Speaker 1: girl named Maria, and she is IRA's stepdaughter and Anna's

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Speaker 1: daughter from the first relationship. So on August sixth, she

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Speaker 1: leaves their house in what had been described at that

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Speaker 1: time as a disordered state. And that just meant she

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Speaker 1: was disheveled, she wasn't dressed properly. She seemed a little

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Speaker 1: out of it. It does not mean assaulted necessarily. It

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Speaker 1: just means you know that she she was not in

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Speaker 1: a normal state of mind where you would find her.

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Speaker 2: How old is Maria. She is sixteen sixteen, okay.

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Speaker 1: So it looks like she's run away, and her stepfather

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Speaker 1: really got upset when she didn't come home. So someone

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Speaker 1: saw her leave and then she didn't come back. And

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Speaker 1: this is what he says. And I know this is

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Speaker 1: going to sound confusing at first, but this is sort

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Speaker 1: of the way the relationship goes. He says, I will

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Speaker 1: be revenged of her if I have to follow her

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Speaker 1: to hell. You outwitted me last night, but I will

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Speaker 1: out general you today. And she says, Maria has got

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Speaker 1: to come home and live contented, or I will be

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Speaker 1: the death of her. I will have my revenge. You

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Speaker 1: may think you can get her so far away that

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Speaker 1: I cannot find her, but that will be of no use.

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Speaker 1: I can find her. I will follow her to the

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Speaker 1: end of earth. I think he's screaming and listen to

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Speaker 1: the ether. I don't know. He's ranting and raving about her,

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Speaker 1: and I will say this does involve a boy. The

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Speaker 1: relationship between them is complicated. So Anna and Ira had

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Speaker 1: been married for eight years, which means that Ira had

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Speaker 1: known Maria since she was eight years old. Okay, there

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Speaker 1: is a pattern of emotional abuse that kind of starts

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Speaker 1: a little bit further back, but what we know of

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Speaker 1: is what happens back in June. What is your initial

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Speaker 1: kind of knee jerk reaction from what Ira is saying,

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Speaker 1: which is really, you know, demanding that she comes back

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Speaker 1: and making some threats.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well my initial reaction was, well, IRA's a piece

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Speaker 2: of work. You know, he's probably talking to Maria in

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Speaker 2: harsh tones all the time. You know, if you know

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Speaker 2: she's leaving the house in this disheveled state, like she's

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Speaker 2: just had it, you know what preceded her leaving the house.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have concerns about her safety when she returns.

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Speaker 2: Then of course, now there's these threats, indirect threats, maybe

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Speaker 2: you know, to whoever Maria you know, met up with, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, Iris seems like a hothead. I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: that men during this era were so emotional, you know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you know, there's always been that typical suppression

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Speaker 2: of men showing their emotions, you know, over the last generations.

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Speaker 2: But back in the eighteen thirties, they're throwing themselves down

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Speaker 2: on a floor. I couldn't imagine doing something like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, and let's not forget what my expertise is, which

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Speaker 1: is in crime. So you're putting people into awful positions.

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Speaker 1: So even if you read things from the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: even if you read them between the founding fathers, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of capitulation in some end, and

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a lot of flowery language to

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Speaker 1: a point where sometimes it's hard to know if their

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Speaker 1: friends or colleagues or lovers when you really read some

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Speaker 1: of this language. And that's why it's important to know

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Speaker 1: the context of the error where you're working in is okay?

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Speaker 1: Is this normal? Like you I have talked about when

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Speaker 1: we talked about a murder case, and you know, a

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Speaker 1: potential suspect had signed initials on a letter that didn't

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Speaker 1: implicate him in any way, and he put his initials down,

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Speaker 1: and we were speculating whether or not this was a

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Speaker 1: case where you know, he was trying to hide his identity,

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Speaker 1: when in fact, most people signed with their initials in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, that was very common. So the historical

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Speaker 1: context is important. That being said, IRA's reaction is over

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Speaker 1: the top, even for eighteen thirty two. I would say

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty extreme reaction, especially the threats.

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Speaker 2: Sure no, and that's how I took it. And it

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Speaker 2: was like, wow, okay.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the starts back in June, so two

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Speaker 1: months earlier, Maria had been sick and needed some sort

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Speaker 1: of antibiotic. It sounded like it was maybe a sign

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Speaker 1: his affection or something, and he said, no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: taking to the doctor. I'm not getting you any kind

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Speaker 1: of medicine, simply because she had met up with a

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Speaker 1: man who people just called Roberts. I don't know how,

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Speaker 1: you know, invested she was in him, But the bottom

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Speaker 1: line is that Ira does not like her talking to

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Speaker 1: men or boys. Certainly, you know this has been sort

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Speaker 1: of an ongoing thing back and forth ever since Maria

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Speaker 1: came of an age where she could actively date. And

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Speaker 1: there had been rumors two months later that Maria actually

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Speaker 1: really liked this twenty year old name Tunis Spears and

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Speaker 1: they were planning to a lope. One thing that I

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Speaker 1: think we can talk about is and was never particularly proven.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a revelation that's made that Maria makes

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Speaker 1: about her stepfather. I'll say straight away, she has accused

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Speaker 1: him of sexual assault, possibly for several years. She told

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Speaker 1: the landlord this, and she says abused in a manner

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Speaker 1: that would send him to the penitentiary. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got contemporary sources saying, well, he just tried and

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen. I don't believe that. I think he

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Speaker 1: was emotionally and physically and sexually abusive with her. So

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make that clear straight away, just because

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Speaker 1: I think it does give us context about his behavior

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Speaker 1: moving forward, versus it being a surprise later on in

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Speaker 1: the story. You know about this behavior too, not shocked. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ira is jealous. It sounds like every man that she

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Speaker 1: gets involved with, and she has run away. So eventually

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Speaker 1: missus Mills, who's a neighbor of the Gardeners, alerts Ira

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Speaker 1: for some reason that Maria has been staying with her family.

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Speaker 1: So this is not mister Robert's family, this is not

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Speaker 1: Tunis's family, this is, you know, another neighbor. She said

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Speaker 1: she tried to persuade Ira to accept her choice to

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Speaker 1: move out, that she's sixteen, she could make her own decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure that was the case in eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty two, particularly in a rural family, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the book that just came out, The Senner's all about

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Speaker 1: that's the same year that my main character, Sarah Maria

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Speaker 1: Cornell is murdered. And the first freedom that many women

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Speaker 1: got was working on the East Coast in these factories

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Speaker 1: and these mills. Most of the time they were relegated

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Speaker 1: to working on farms, kind of almost forced labor. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, they had some freedom, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: about the choice of the person they end up marrying

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Speaker 1: necessarily in this time period. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: missus Mills is there, and she knows it may be

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Speaker 1: better than.

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Speaker 2: I do for sure, you know, but it sounds like

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Speaker 2: Missus Mills is trying to intercede and maybe understands the

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Speaker 2: dynamics between Ira and Maria.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is more of like kind of victimology story

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Speaker 1: and a criminal profiling where you can kind of explain

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Speaker 1: what's going on as we move forward here, because there

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Speaker 1: are very few times where I think we have so

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Speaker 1: much detail about someone's behavior before the inciting incident happens.

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Speaker 1: So Missus Mills goes to Ira and says, straight no,

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Speaker 1: she's leaving. Get used to it and concentrate on your

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Speaker 1: other kids. And he says, okay, except that Maria needs

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Speaker 1: to meet with me one more time in private in

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Speaker 1: their home to have a talk. And Maria's mother, IRA's

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Speaker 1: wife goes to missus Mills, who is you know, sheltering Maria,

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Speaker 1: And she says, if Maria comes home, things will go well.

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Speaker 1: If not, they will go wrong. So she's saying there's

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Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty chance of things going badly here

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Speaker 1: and maybe Maria shouldn't come home.

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Speaker 2: Anna obviously knows that there's a possibility IRA's going to

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Speaker 2: fly off the handle.

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Speaker 1: Maria refuses to be alone with him. They are standing

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Speaker 1: together outside of Missus Mills barn Ira explodes. He comes

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Speaker 1: to the Mills property. He stands outside their barn and

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Speaker 1: he says, you need to come out to Maria. He's

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Speaker 1: screaming at her, and then he says to the Mills,

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Speaker 1: I will see her if I have to wait this

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Speaker 1: seven years, I must see her, and we'll have my

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Speaker 1: revenge if it is not this eight years. Hearing these words,

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Speaker 1: Maria agrees to speak with him in the barn, but

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't go home with him. And we don't know

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Speaker 1: what this discussion was in the barn, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think they necessarily left her alone with him. He was

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Speaker 1: just very unstable.

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Speaker 2: It's like there's a pathology there. There's something off about him,

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Speaker 2: at least with what I'm hearing this. It'll be interesting

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Speaker 2: to see how this develops, but I, you know, I've

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Speaker 2: got concerns about his mental stability.

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Speaker 1: During this stalemate where she says, I'll talk to you,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going home with you, the neighbors decide

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Speaker 1: they want to get her shoes from her parents because

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Speaker 1: she hadn't had them in several days. And that might

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Speaker 1: seem silly, but you know, in eighteen thirty two, these

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Speaker 1: are folks who probably didn't have very much money. This

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Speaker 1: was her one pair of shoes, it sounds like, and

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Speaker 1: she needed them back says no, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: give anybody anything except Maria. So obviously we see this

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Speaker 1: as controlling. There is a push pull here that I

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Speaker 1: don't think we've really had detailed in this way before,

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Speaker 1: where he is making demands and then he's saying okay,

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Speaker 1: and then he's making demands and going back and forth,

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Speaker 1: and Maria is just trying to get out of the situation,

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Speaker 1: but she's physically out, she's physically out away from him.

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Speaker 1: At this point in.

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Speaker 2: This day and age, you know, he has been sexually

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Speaker 2: abusing a child, and there is a pattern that these

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Speaker 2: types of offenders do in terms of having these grooming behaviors,

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Speaker 2: you know, to try to you know, get the child

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Speaker 2: and other family members to be accepting of the interaction

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Speaker 2: that the offender is having with the child. And then,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned before, there's this coercive control where they

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Speaker 2: try to in essence, manage every aspect of this child's life.

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Speaker 2: And so he's demonstrating that coercive can control by going

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to be using an intermediary here, It's

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Speaker 2: only me and Maria, you know, And that way he's

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Speaker 2: kind of keeping her in his bubble.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I do with my true

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Speaker 1: crime podcast class is, you know, we talk about stories,

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Speaker 1: not just with podcasts, but we just talk about true

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Speaker 1: crime stories that are impactful and what are the responsibilities

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Speaker 1: of the content creators to those stories. There are many

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Speaker 1: stories like this, but you know, there's a few stories

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Speaker 1: that float out about women who you know, have men

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Speaker 1: in their lives who turn out to be terrible, but

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Speaker 1: they keep coming back. And every time I talk to

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Speaker 1: my students about him in the past, they would say,

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Speaker 1: why would she do that? I don't understand, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and so I finally had to go through this process

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Speaker 1: of explaining coercion and control and it really changes their

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Speaker 1: way of thinking when they look at these stories. And

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Speaker 1: it's important when we tell these stories to explain why

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Speaker 1: this is happening. It is not in in the case

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. It is not a woman who loves

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Speaker 1: to be in love and she's blinded by love. That's

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Speaker 1: not it. That's somebody who's being controlled or controlled too.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's somebody who is being controlled. And so

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Speaker 1: to see this happening in this time period, it's just

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Speaker 1: another reminder. This has always been happening, but it can

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Speaker 1: happen from a distance. She is out, she is technically safe,

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Speaker 1: but he manages to pull her back in, back and forth,

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Speaker 1: over and over again. And it's interesting to see it

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Speaker 1: unfold well.

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Speaker 2: But he's standing outside his neighbor's house yelling in you know,

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Speaker 2: in a very dramatic overtone. Yeah, you know there is

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Speaker 2: an aspect to that which has got to be scary

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Speaker 2: to the neighbors. You know, what is this man capable

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Speaker 2: of doing?

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Speaker 1: Well, let's see how this unfolds. To me, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like Maria does everything she possibly can to make this

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Speaker 1: a good situation, safe situation for her. So Ira, in

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Speaker 1: his agitated state, he leaves. He goes on to his

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Speaker 1: own property, remember he's renting it. He goes to his landlord,

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Speaker 1: who's a friend of the family. His name is Riveras,

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Speaker 1: and he says to him, help me get Maria back home.

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Speaker 1: And Riveras didn't want to. He was really hesitant, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I have heard things about you and what

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Speaker 1: you've done to Maria in this time period. This would

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Speaker 1: have been you know, not discussed very openly at all,

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Speaker 1: sexual assault claims. And you know I've told you some

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Speaker 1: of the words that people used outraged for a word

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Speaker 1: for rape, A sex maniac is a code. So Riveras says,

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Speaker 1: I've heard about some of this stuff, and of course

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Speaker 1: Ira denies it. He says I would never hurt her,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you know, if she comes home, Riveras said,

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Speaker 1: I will help you, but you have to promise that

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Speaker 1: you're not going to touch her and you're going to

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Speaker 1: keep her safe, and of course Ira says yes. So

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Speaker 1: on the evening of August seventh, Riveras goes to Maria,

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Speaker 1: who trusts him, and she says, okay, I will come

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Speaker 1: and collect the belongings myself, and she takes two men

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Speaker 1: with her, so not just Rivera's but two other men.

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Speaker 1: She goes to the farm and Ira freaks out again

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Speaker 1: and yells a lot of threats. He says, the first

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Speaker 1: one that puts his hand on me as a dead

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Speaker 1: man as quick as he does it, I don't want

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Speaker 1: you to interfere with my family concerns.

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Speaker 2: Well, and this is Ira posturing to these men. You know,

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Speaker 2: he is trying to control the situation. He recognizes Maria

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Speaker 2: is protecting herself, and when these men are now coming

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Speaker 2: on to his property to assist Maria and getting her belongings.

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Speaker 2: He is now trying to mitigate the presence of these

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Speaker 2: other men through these verbal in essence, these verbal threats.

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Speaker 1: So what is the thinking around what Riveras does to

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Speaker 1: help He's heard these allegations. Of course Ira denies he

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Speaker 1: knows Ira and the family really well, well enough to

390
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Speaker 1: bring up something that would have been really brave of

391
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Speaker 1: him to bring up at that time period. But he

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Speaker 1: still helps him. So what is that thinking.

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Speaker 2: Do you think I'm putting myself in Rivera's position. You've

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Speaker 2: got this Ira that he knows well knows Ira can

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Speaker 2: be unhinged, So there's going to be a component. If

396
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Speaker 2: I don't cooperate with what Ira is asking for, there

397
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Speaker 2: could be consequences to Rivera's either you know, physically the interaction,

398
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Speaker 2: or even the business relationship because Ira is renting from

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Speaker 2: Rivera's right, so there is a financial relationship between these two.

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Speaker 2: There also could just be this not completely believing all

401
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Speaker 2: the allegations or putting false trust. And I think it's

402
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Speaker 2: false trust that what Ira say as He's saying, no,

403
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Speaker 2: you know, nothing like that has happened, and I'm not

404
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Speaker 2: going to I will never hurt her. You know, so

405
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Speaker 2: maybe Rivera's is believing Ira in that mindset. So it's

406
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Speaker 2: I think it's complicated from you know, the kind of

407
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Speaker 2: these layers in the relationship that Ira and Rivera's have

408
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Speaker 2: with each other.

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Speaker 1: Well, Ira waits for Maria to make it into the

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Speaker 1: house with the chaperones, either outside or inside the house,

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Speaker 1: but kind of away from Maria when he starts screaming

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Speaker 1: what I told you. He screamed like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: kill you if you come near me, all of that.

414
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Speaker 1: Maria hears this and does the right thing for herself.

415
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Speaker 1: She immediately tries to get out the window, but he says,

416
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Speaker 1: you cannot go from here. If you do, you will

417
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Speaker 1: go as a corpse. And one of the men has

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Speaker 1: a hoe as a weapon, and he tells Ira we're

419
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Speaker 1: leaving and we're taking her with us, but he then

420
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Speaker 1: promises to search for Maria into the night. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is terra fine, oh for sure. And this is

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Speaker 1: something that that happened yesterday probably and will happen tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: probably to all sorts of people, not just women either.

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Speaker 2: Well, not only is there the control element, you know,

425
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Speaker 2: but the language he's using, he is purposely inflicting fear.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're going to be a corpse. I will

427
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Speaker 2: you know, hunt you into the night or whatever that

428
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: last statement was. You know, this is now putting a

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Speaker 2: an emotion into Maria about her personal safety. You know,

430
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Speaker 2: when is this going to happen? You know, when a

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Speaker 2: stepdad all of a sudden going to come through my

432
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: window at the neighbor's house. You know, And when I

433
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: think about some of these these offenders that like to

434
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: call their victims on the phone afterwards, what are they doing.

435
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: They're purposely letting the victim know I'm still around, and

436
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: they purposely make statements that these that scare the victims.

437
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 2: That's what IRA's doing to Maria.

438
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: So Maria gets out the window essentially and leaves with

439
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: these men because one of them's threatening Ira and he

440
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: yells at her. She doesn't get anything out of the house.

441
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: So the next day, IRA's not letting it go, of course,

442
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: and he's begging Riveras to help him get Maria at

443
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: the house back to the house. He says, I won't

444
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: hurt her, he already said that, And Rivera says, I'm

445
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: going to pay for Maria's independence. She's not going to

446
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: be dependent on you. Anymore. And you know, probably he

447
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: maybe offered Ira some money too, just to let just

448
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: be done. And in eighteen thirty two she would have

449
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: been able to kind of get away and be anonymous.

450
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: But the property itself is two hundred acres, so you

451
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: can imagine how difficult it could have been. She could

452
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: have gotten on a wagon, I suppose, but it would

453
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: have been difficult for her to be able to do

454
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: a significant amount of traveling to get away. And she

455
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: has her mom and she has three siblings too, so

456
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: there's like this emotional trap that she's in. And then

457
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: also you know, she is petrified that this stepfather of

458
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: hers knows everybody that she knows, and that she's never

459
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: going to be able to get away from this.

460
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just a practical aspect that's transportation back then,

461
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: you know, that's horse and carriage, right, Yeah, I mean

462
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: it would take these these neighbors, you know, their willingness

463
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: to try to get her further away from the threat,

464
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: and you know, it's like, well what would that mean

465
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: to them down the road?

466
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so Riveras walks to the farm, he says to Maria,

467
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: she's safe, and I will take you back to the

468
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: gardener's property. Ira greets her with kind words, then he

469
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: and Rivera's go set off to work. But by the

470
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: time they returned for lunch, Maria had already left, and

471
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: it sounds like Ira had wanted to speak with her.

472
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what changed on this trip where he

473
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: was willing to leave her alone in the house to

474
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: get her stuff, but he seemed this time willing to leave,

475
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: go to work and then come back. And then he

476
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: freaked out again because she wasn't there and he was

477
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: expecting her to be there. So what accounts for the

478
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: change in that sort of behavior.

479
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: He may just have realized that the previous behavior did

480
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: not work. Him coming off as unhinged cause Maria to

481
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: bring two adult males, one armed with a hoe, And

482
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 2: so now he's purposely de escalating, maybe with the hope

483
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: that he can get Maria back into the house without

484
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: the threat of other men possibly being present as protectors.

485
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, he gets very upset and he screams at his wife.

486
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: He says, she needs to come back, You need to

487
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: go get her. And Anna is exasperated and she says,

488
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: if she comes, will you let her get her clothes

489
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: and let her go in peace? And he says, oh,

490
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 1: of course, and she goes to go get Maria. And

491
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, what are people thinking in this situation?

492
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: You know, now I don't know about the dynamic between

493
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: Anna and Ira. If there is a similar dynamic of abuse,

494
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: there has to be some kind of abuse. I mean,

495
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: this can't be just isolated. I would assume to Maria.

496
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: I suspect that there is at least, you know, pretty

497
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: significant verbal abuse going on between Ira and Anna. You know,

498
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: out of law enforcement, when you're dealing with, you know,

499
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: these offenders that are abusing kids or in a domestic

500
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: violence situation, we see this pattern of behavior over and

501
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: over again. And you kind of brought it up too

502
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: that even though the victim is being abused in a

503
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: variety of different ways, the victim also just continues to

504
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: stay within that relationship. You know. So Anna previously had

505
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: told the neighbor that, you know, if Maria comes home,

506
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: it can either go very good or very bad. And

507
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: so now I believe that Anna is sensing at this

508
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: moment in time that Ira is in his good place right,

509
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: He's got the good emotional state, and so Anna is

510
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: now saying, okay, he's he's de escalated. He's now back

511
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: to just being the nice Ira, knowing you know, sometime

512
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: down the road he's going to flip it back into

513
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: that rage state.

514
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: But hoping. I'm sure that Maria is long gone, yeah

515
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: at that point, And you know, Anna is sitting here

516
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: realizing that she's losing her daughter, her daughter's if she

517
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: can go, she's never coming back to the situation. So

518
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: that must have been very difficult for her too. Oh sure,

519
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: And in eighteen thirty two it was very hard to

520
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: get a divorce. And also I have to presume she's

521
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: completely dependent financially on him. Although I will say Ira

522
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: does not like hard work, and you know he works

523
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: with riveras and River's complains a lot that Ira is

524
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: not wanting to lift logs and do things that he's

525
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, and so they don't have a

526
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 1: ton of money. They have less money than they should,

527
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: probably because he's not a hard worker. So now this

528
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: is the day. It's mid afternoon, Wednesday, August eighth, and Ira,

529
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: as usual, Ira and Revas are working together repairing some

530
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: township roads and he seems like everything is okay with Ira.

531
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: He's complaining about the hard work and complaining about money.

532
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: About noon, the two of them go back to IRA's house.

533
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: Anna had made them lunch. It sounds like Rivers ate it,

534
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: and Ira didn't. He just you know, wasn't hungry that day.

535
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 1: So Rivers lays down to rest, but soon there is

536
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: a piercing scream. He bolts to the door and he

537
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: sees Ira at the fence with a butcher knife. And

538
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: Maria falls to the ground. So he's stabbed her. She

539
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: returned to get her belongings and he stabbed her with

540
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: a butcher knife. She has been stabbed once in the

541
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: left breast and once in the stomach, and he rushes

542
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: from the house riveras and wrestles the knife from Ira,

543
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: and Ira yells, I have done it. I have got

544
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: my revenge. So when I was first reading this story,

545
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I hope that this is her killing him,

546
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: but I know realistically it's more likely the other way around.

547
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: I'm interested in knowing what did Maria do that Ira

548
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: is so where he's having to call it this is revenge?

549
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: You know, how is he perceiving the world? You know? What?

550
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: Did he just take it as such a slight against

551
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: him that she ran away? That could be, but you

552
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: know it was obvious, you know, as you were telling

553
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: the you know the case and IRA's personality. This is

554
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: somebody who is very capable of going unhinged and committing

555
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: homicidal violence. I truly suspected Maria was going to end

556
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: up dead when she came back into the house. It's

557
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: just sad. But Ira was able to manipulate the situation

558
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: to a point to where the other adults allowed Maria back.

559
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: So then she survives for about ten minutes. Her neighbor

560
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: is there, her mother is there, and riveras everybody saw this,

561
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: IRA's not hiding it. There's a crowd that gathers, including

562
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: one of the men who had been the chaperone for

563
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: Maria on the farm the day before, and Ira says this,

564
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: which really ticked me off. He says to the man,

565
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: you ought to have kept her away a day or

566
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: two until I got over it, knowing as you did

567
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: that I was in a passion, all right.

568
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: So there's almost a bipolar aspect to starting to emerge

569
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: with Ira, and Anna definitely knows it. Yeah, she sees

570
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: as high, she sees his lows, you know, she sees

571
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: him get aggressive and they get docile. So he's going

572
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: through these mood swings. But there's more. Obviously there's more

573
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: than that. He's you know, abusing Maria and he's threatening her. Yeah,

574
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: he probably should have been institutionalized well before this, this

575
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: homicide occurred.

576
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: Well, this story does not end here. There is a

577
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: question about that, because he will plead not guilty by

578
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: reason of insanity. So I think the way this unfolds

579
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: is important. You already know what his behavior, You've already

580
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: kind of said. It's the highs and lows, up and

581
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: down and very very erratic. The neighbors hold him at

582
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: the house until there's a constable that shows up and

583
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: the guy arrest The constable arrests him. From there, he

584
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: goes to the Trumbull County jail in warn o'hiott when

585
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: he is en Root, Rivera's rides with him. And now

586
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: we talk about premeditation because he says that I was

587
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: carrying around a knife for two days, waiting for the

588
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: opportunity to use it, and I didn't have the opportunity.

589
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: He says, right before he stabbed her, he heard a

590
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: voice whisper, don't kill her, and he said, I ignored it.

591
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: And there are weapons that neighbors find there's an axe

592
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: and a pitchfork propped up against the fence on the property,

593
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: and Ira had placed them there the night before, and

594
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: he said that if he had no where Maria was

595
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: that night, that he would have used them to murder her.

596
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: He's stashing weapons everywhere.

597
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: An offender that is, you demonstrating a level of premeditation

598
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily negate that you are dealing with an offender

599
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: that has mental health issues. It just tells me that

600
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: this is not an offender that has gone into a

601
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: deep psycho where they are no longer aware of the

602
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: reality of the world around them, you know. And now

603
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: we have plenty of examples of these disorganized, psychotic offenders

604
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: and how they I mean, they just literally will lash

605
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: out with homicidal violence anybody that were to cross their

606
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: path during that timeframe. That's not what's going on with Ira.

607
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: But I do think that if he were to be

608
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: psychologically analyzed, there probably would be a diagnosis of some sort,

609
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm not I use the term bipolar,

610
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: and all I'm doing is describing sort of the rage

611
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 2: versus docile characteristics, versus labeling him as having some sort

612
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: of bipolar personality. Disorder, But there is an aspect to that.

613
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: You know, he's thirty nine years old, and you know

614
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: the idea of the voice. And then I was like, okay,

615
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: now we are we dealing with somebody who's developing schizophrenia,

616
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, but there's there's something going on there where

617
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: him pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. At this

618
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: point in time, I am not like offended that that's

619
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: a stance that the defense is taken. Now does it

620
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: truly rise to the legal definition today of insanity? You know?

621
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: Part of that is did the defendant know right from wrong?

622
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: Do they demonstrate you know, that their acts are are wrong?

623
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: And I think Ira knows right from wrong. He knows that,

624
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: you know, killing Maria is wrong. But there is a

625
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: mental health thing going on with him where it's like, okay,

626
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: now there's somewhat of a mitigating factor in my mind

627
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: about Ira.

628
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you some things. First, Ira did

629
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: not want attorneys. He said, I have committed the deed.

630
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: She was innocent and has nothing to cause me to

631
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: do the deed. So now he's flipping again.

632
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: So he's almost like pleading guilty.

633
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: Right well, as soon as he kills her, he shows remorse.

634
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: Whether that is authentic or not, that is what I'm hearing.

635
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: He gets three attorneys who are really good anyway, and

636
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: that's where we end up with the insanity defense, and

637
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: sounds like there's some background there because there are an

638
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: awful lot of people who say he has not been

639
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: well for years because he had an accident that involved

640
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: really doing some damage to his brain. And it made

641
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: me think of that classic case that you talk about,

642
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: the guy who had the railroad tie driven into his head. So,

643
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk about that accident too. So I

644
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: don't know about the mental health aspect, but there is

645
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: a documented accident where this man got really hurt. Do

646
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: I think that leads you to sexually abuse your stepdaughter? No,

647
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: but the erratic behavior is something else.

648
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, and you brought up Phineas Gage, and

649
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: that's a classic sample and psychology of a very law

650
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: abiding man who ends up having this you know, iron

651
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: rod driven by an explosive you know, from underneath his

652
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: jaw up the top of his head and it damaged

653
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: a portion of his brain to where now he is

654
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: demonstrating risky behaviors and violent behaviors. That was diametrically opposed

655
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 2: to what he was like prior to that type of accident.

656
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: You know, So this is where with Ira, you know,

657
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: part of evaluating his crime is Okay, well, when did

658
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: this accident occurred? It occurred prior to you know, this

659
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: latest incident with Maria, But did it occur prior to

660
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: him starting the sexual abuse on Maria right or demonstrating

661
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: other you know, moments of rage like he was demonstrating recently.

662
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: So you know that, I'm sure there's probably when this

663
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: goes to trial, there's a battle of medical experts and

664
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: psycho logical experts that are in essence saying opposite from

665
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: each other.

666
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like I said, this is no forensics in

667
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: this case, and I know how much you love forensics.

668
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: There's no photos in this case. I know you like photos.

669
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: But I picked this case beside the fact that a

670
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: lot of people wanted to hear about it, just because

671
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: I think those circumstances are really fascinating. So here's the timeline.

672
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: What you were talking about. The murder happens in eighteen

673
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: thirty two, and he had known Maria because he and

674
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: Anna were married. Now I have to do math. I

675
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: think it is about eighteen twenty four. In eighteen twenty

676
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: five or eighteen twenty six, people could not settle on

677
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: this Ira was loading wheat onto his wagon. He fell,

678
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: had a hard fall off the top of the wagon,

679
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: hit his head and it bled profusely. Ever since then,

680
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: he has constantly complained about really intense headaches, and family

681
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: members every where said his behavior totally changed. At times,

682
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 1: he was out of his mind. According to his brother Elijah,

683
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: and he testified to this. For example, Elijah said that

684
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: about a year or two years after this accident, Ira

685
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: was sick with jaundice. He said that he was despondent

686
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: and sitting under a hedge. I think Anna must have

687
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: told him that she was married to the father of

688
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: Maria and the other sibling that was his stepchild. But

689
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: he found out that Anna never married the man, so

690
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: Maria and the other sibling were illegitimate, and this would

691
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: have been a really bad thing in eighteen thirty two,

692
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: and it would have brought shame onto the family. So

693
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: you know, this was him very upset about this.

694
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: But Anna could have kept that secret from him, so

695
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: she must have felt that had benefited her and her

696
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: daughters by divulging it. Does that make sense.

697
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: Maybe she is divulging this to him after he's had

698
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 3: this traumatic brain injury, correct, and so she probably sees

699
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 3: first hand him flip a switch when she divulges it,

700
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 3: you know, she sees the bad Ira come.

701
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: Out along those lines. Ira was so upset and his

702
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: brother described dramatic about this that he was going to

703
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: pick up and move to Michigan and leave them behind.

704
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: Next year he and Anna would have their first child

705
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: and then their second child. So he didn't end up

706
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: doing that, but Elijah thought that his despair was overly

707
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: dramatic and unnerving. To put that into context, I told

708
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: you how serious it would be to have an illegitimate

709
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: child in eighteen thirty two. So Elijah must have thought

710
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: that this was way too over the edge because any

711
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: man would probably be in despair over this. And so

712
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: whatever whatever's IRA's reaction was must have been really big,

713
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: to a point point where Anna was really frightened and

714
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: she asked Elijah to stay with them for a few

715
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: nights until he calmed down. Okay, so this was the

716
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: beginning of what they were saying was really erratic behavior

717
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: from him. Just within you know, the year or so

718
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: that he had this accident, So that would have made

719
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: Maria about ten at this point, you.

720
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: Know, and it really does. I mean, obviously, you know,

721
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 2: these brain injuries could influence behavior, but also there could

722
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: have been just a natural development of mental health issues

723
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: that Iora was just starting to experience. It has nothing

724
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 2: to do with him falling off of that, you know

725
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: Wagan back in the day.

726
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand erratic behavior. I even understand violent behavior,

727
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: but it is clear from everyone that he either tried or,

728
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: according to Maria, he did sexually assault her. And I

729
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: just don't see how that would fall under any of

730
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: those things, brain injury or mental health.

731
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you and I bet that you'd probably find experts

732
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: on one side or the other that would make arguments

733
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: against it. But you know, at this point, you know,

734
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: Maria is a victim, and now comes down to, well,

735
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: how much is Ira going to be held responsible for

736
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: the I mean, the murder of Maria. You know, obviously

737
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 2: there's the preceding sexual assault, but chances are they can't

738
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: charge that at this point in time, but it's it's

739
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: the actual murder that's eyewitnessed.

740
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll have a disturbing disclosure for you. There

741
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: is no charging anyone for sexual assault because it is

742
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: not illegal to sexually assault someone within your household. Oh really,

743
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: so he's not going to be charged yep. So you

744
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: know they can bring it up, but it doesn't play

745
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: into this whether he killed her or not, whether she's

746
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: he's you know, insane or not.

747
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: So it's more of socially unacceptable versus criminal for sexual

748
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: assault back in the day.

749
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: And of course we know that there was no sexual

750
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: assault considered between a husband and wife at all. So

751
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: let me tell you one little thing. The year that

752
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 1: this happens, actually a couple of months before this happens,

753
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: there's a man named mister Lewis who testifies that when

754
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: Ira and mister Lewis were walking that Ira suddenly staggered

755
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: and he fell into a ditch, almost caught himself. He

756
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 1: said that he has an intense pain at the back

757
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: of his head that was causing him to lose balance.

758
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: And not long after that, maybe about a month after that,

759
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 1: is when all of this starts. Well, no, probably about

760
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: six months after that is when all of this starts

761
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: to happen. But once we get into the trial, we

762
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: do have the battle of the experts. Have two doctors

763
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: who examine his head. They find a depression and a

764
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: protuberance at the back of his skull, but there's no scarring,

765
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: so it's unclear whether these are malformations that have been

766
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: caused by an injury or something he was born with

767
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: or developed who knows. The prosecutor says, this is bullshit,

768
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: and the accusations that he had possibly molested or raped Maria,

769
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: they're inconsequential, as I told you, because sexually assaulting someone

770
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: in the same household is not considered a crime, and

771
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: those are not investigated. So this is a one day trial.

772
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: The jury deliberates for about two hours, and what do

773
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: you think they came back with.

774
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: I don't see how they couldn't come back. They had

775
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: to choose guilty because you literally have Rivera see him

776
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: stab Maria. You know, So now the question is, you know, first,

777
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 2: I don't know if they you know, differentiated between first

778
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: degree second degree murder manslaughter back in the day, but

779
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: there is no question that this homicide occurred, and they

780
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 2: have witnesses to it that. The question is is, okay,

781
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: what is his culpability in the homicide considering you know,

782
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: the fact that he's claiming not guilty due to insanity.

783
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: They say that he has full culpability in this homicide,

784
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: and he is convicted at first degree murder any sentenced

785
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: to death. It is delayed because the attorneys say that,

786
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, this had not been premeditated. There are two

787
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: doctors who said that Ira might have had a predisposition

788
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 1: to insanity, and there are people who sign a petition.

789
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: They delay the execution for a month, but ultimately he

790
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: ends up being hanged. And so that debate between you know,

791
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: where that line is and what your responsibility is, whether

792
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: you know you did right or wrong, what effect a

793
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: head injury has. Lots of people have head injuries, they

794
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: don't sexually assault and murder their step children. That's what

795
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: I think makes this case really interesting.

796
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially with the limitations that they had back

797
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 2: in the day in terms of doing these types of evaluations.

798
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 2: I mean, they're just feeling the outside of his head.

799
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: It says well that deformity could could be congenital or

800
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: that could be a result of the injury. For me,

801
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: I think guilt is right. You know, that's as I

802
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: explained before. There's no question that Ira did it, and

803
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: then the mitigating factor is just his his mental illness,

804
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: and I think that that mitigating factor should have impacted

805
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: the sentencing and not the guilt. And so I think,

806
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, the death sentence and then the very quick

807
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: execution afterwards probably shouldn't have happened in this case. But

808
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: I have no issue with him being you know life,

809
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, life without parole for Maria's murder.

810
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in prisons in that time period, it would

811
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: have been worse than being executed. I would have to

812
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 1: say being in one of these prison would have been awful.

813
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: So he got he was buried in an unmarked grave.

814
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: I think the thing that a lot of people know

815
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: is that there's a poem that was attributed to a

816
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: poet named Phoebe Glider. She was one of her friends,

817
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: and it was published in nineteen forty three, and it

818
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: condemns IRA's sexual abuse and what Phoebe believes is Anna's

819
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: complicity and the role in convincing Maria to return home

820
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: over and over again, you know, with these promises from Ira,

821
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: and she's described as lamb like and sending her back

822
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 1: home to slaughter. So there is that idea her mother

823
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: failed her, the community failed her. You have all of

824
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: these people I mean over shoes, you know, and her belongings.

825
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: And Maria is listening to these people because she's sixteen,

826
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: and sixteen is absolutely considered an adult in eighteen thirty two,

827
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: but she wasn't. She didn't know anything. And so you

828
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: have these older adults, men saying it's okay, we'll keep

829
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: you safe, and they didn't.

830
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: I agree with that. There's a level of culpability on Anna.

831
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: She recognizes the danger that Ira poses, but also so

832
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: there is the situation that Anna finds herself in. Not

833
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 2: that I would relieve Anna of any type of parental

834
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: responsibilities in protecting Maria from Ira, but there are, you know,

835
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: studies that show and I'm now going into more of

836
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 2: your serial predator aspects where you have women that assist

837
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: these predators in their crimes, you know. And doctor park

838
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 2: Deets has a great article what he calls, you know,

839
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: complying victims of the sexual status, where a lot of

840
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: what's going on is that these victims end up getting

841
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: into situations they don't know how to get out of.

842
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: And I just kind of wonder if there's something like

843
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: that going on with Anna. And there's a lot more

844
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: abuse that Ira was inflicting on her. That may also

845
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: be factoring in her mind that I need to get

846
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 2: Maria back here just so I save the rest of

847
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 2: my family.

848
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, I mean we were just talking about that

849
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 1: incident I told you where he was so angry at

850
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: her he wanted to move to Michigan when he finds

851
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: out about you know, the illegitimacy of the kids, and

852
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: that she continued to be married to him for six

853
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: seven more years. You know, So she felt trapped, I'm

854
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: sure in some way, But it doesn't mean don't protect

855
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,479
Speaker 1: your child. It's so complicated. Without knowing more, I can't

856
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: imagine that everybody there was abused, I'm sure.

857
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 2: Well, and that's where I think Anna's having to look

858
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: out for herself. She's also got She's also got you know,

859
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: four kids that she's looking out for, and Maria is

860
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 2: one of those four. You know, So what is I

861
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 2: we going to do to the other three kids if

862
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 2: Anna doesn't cooperate and try to get Maria back into

863
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 2: the household.

864
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking. I was thinking

865
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: the math here in eighteen twenty seven is when they

866
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: had their first kid. So Maria's murder happens in thirty two.

867
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: So you've got a five year old and probably a

868
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: three year old maybe man trapped on a two hundred

869
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: acre farm, which I know sounds like, oh you can

870
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: go anywhere. You can't. You can't even get off that

871
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: property easily, you know. Maybe. So I feel like I've

872
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: read this case over and over again over the decades,

873
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, this sort of case, and there's still something

874
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 1: to me about reading these cases that feel very contemporary,

875
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: like they could have just happened yesterday. But then realizing

876
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 1: it was eighteen thirty two, and hearing these people's names

877
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: and the way that Maria moved people, and at the

878
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: same time how manipulative Ira was, and how naive or

879
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: culpable or whatever the community was to this sort of

880
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: manipulation and erratic behavior. And then you've got you know,

881
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: the other part of the you know, having a brain

882
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: injury and all of that stuff. It's just so relevant now.

883
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: And that's why the lack of forensics and the lack

884
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: of photos hopefully made up.

885
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: For with the story well, you know for sure, because

886
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: I think it brings out just you know, the complexities

887
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 2: that that can occur both you know, within the actual crime,

888
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 2: but what's leading up to that crime. How is the

889
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: community responding, you know, how are these neighbors responding? How

890
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: is Anna responding? And then the legal side, you know,

891
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: how is this going to you know, work out from

892
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 2: a criminal charging and a sentencing standpoint. It's not black

893
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 2: and white. There's a lot of gray in this case,

894
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 2: you know, and and I you know, fortunately it looks

895
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 2: like Ira was in essence taken out and that saved

896
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: others from possibly you know, being hurt, particularly Anna and

897
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: the other kids. It's just unfortunate that he couldn't have

898
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: been somehow isolated, evaluated, treated prior to him killing Maria.

899
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, well, what a hard case, and I know

900
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: we'll continue to have hard cases. But with you by

901
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: my side, Paul Holes, we'll make it through. And I'll

902
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: try to get you into the nineteen hundreds as quick

903
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: as possible.

904
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, get me some photos, get me some evidence.

905
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, give me some autotos. I'm just asking for a photo,

906
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a microscope image, something.

907
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 2: Hand drawn sketch, you know.

908
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: All right, I will see you next week with a

909
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: new case.

910
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: Awesome, Thanks Kate.

911
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: Thanks, this has been an exactly right production for.

912
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

913
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

914
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

915
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

916
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

917
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

918
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

919
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

920
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

921
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

922
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a guilty

923
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 2: story of murder and the race to decote the criminal mind,

924
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 2: is available now.

925
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

926
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

927
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

928
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.