WEBVTT - How COVID Killed the Sick Day

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, June. I'm oscar a mirrors from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>Workers in the US have a very strange relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>working and not taking time off. After going through the pandemic,

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<v Speaker 1>COVID may have done away with the sick day because

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<v Speaker 1>of the pace of work or fears of getting in trouble.

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<v Speaker 1>Many people continue to log in for meetings and answered emails,

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<v Speaker 1>despite many companies changing sick day policies to allow people

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<v Speaker 1>more time to heal. Managers also weren't good role models

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<v Speaker 1>as they took to working while sick. This is coming

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<v Speaker 1>despite companies changing sick day policies to allow people more

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<v Speaker 1>time to heal. Emma Goldberg, reporter at The New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>joins us for why employees can't seem to take a

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<v Speaker 1>sick day. Thanks for joining Semma, Thanks so much for

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<v Speaker 1>having me on. Well, let's talk about getting sick with

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<v Speaker 1>COVID and then working through it. Anyways, it seems that

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<v Speaker 1>here in this country we have a real problem with

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<v Speaker 1>NonStop work. And you know, a lot of people, obviously

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<v Speaker 1>throughout the pandemic have had the opportunity to work from

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<v Speaker 1>home things like that. You know, you can always you're

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<v Speaker 1>always tethered to emails or whatever it could be. But

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people, instead of taking the sick days,

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<v Speaker 1>taking the time to get better, we're still kind of

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<v Speaker 1>trudging through it, and uh on all sides of it, right,

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<v Speaker 1>managers were doing it, setting bad examples for their uh,

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<v Speaker 1>for their other employees. You know, really kind of almost

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<v Speaker 1>has done away with the taking a sick day. So

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna tell us what we're seeing out there with this. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, fundamentally what you just said, there is a

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<v Speaker 1>real sickness at the core of America's culture of sick leaves.

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<v Speaker 1>There's about thirty three million Americans that don't have paid

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<v Speaker 1>sick leave at all, and that's especially affecting low income workers.

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<v Speaker 1>That being said, even people who do have paid sick

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<v Speaker 1>days often don't use them. And I think COVID is

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<v Speaker 1>in some ways exasperbated that because so many people are

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<v Speaker 1>working from home anyway, so it's pretty easy to wake

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<v Speaker 1>up with a call or aches or chills and just

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<v Speaker 1>continue logging on, zooming into meetings, answering emails, and not

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<v Speaker 1>taking the time to fully recover. Yeah, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>the pace of work that there's a lot of factors

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<v Speaker 1>that go into it. Everybody else. If your project based

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<v Speaker 1>everybody else's, the project always continues, right, and you're kind

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<v Speaker 1>of left behind if you have to sit it out. So,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you feel that urged. You know, I can

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<v Speaker 1>jump on this media, can do a couple of emails

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<v Speaker 1>here and there, and uh, it just kind of becomes

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<v Speaker 1>this cycle where you just can't break out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>I recently had COVID too, and I did the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I worked a few days through it and it was awful. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I gotta admit the story hardly inspired. You know. I

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<v Speaker 1>I too at COVID and was working through it and

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<v Speaker 1>and it is sort of attempting thing to do when

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<v Speaker 1>you're alone in an apartment and you do need something

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<v Speaker 1>to pull the time. That being said, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's important to highlight the expectations it creates when,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, employees see their managers working for COVID. Yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>And that's kind of point. You spoke to a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people who were in that position saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they created these new structures for sick time and paid leave.

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<v Speaker 1>Some companies were giving their people unlimited days, like just

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<v Speaker 1>go home, rest and get better. But then when it

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<v Speaker 1>came time for them to take that time off, they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't do it. And you know, they were on those emails,

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<v Speaker 1>they were on those meetings, and you know, as you

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<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned, just kind of setting that bad example exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, people really looked at what their teammates are doing,

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<v Speaker 1>they looked at what their managers are doing. So I

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<v Speaker 1>spoke with someone who said he recently got COVID. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a really high pressure week of work, including a

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<v Speaker 1>week in which a lot of his teammates have flown

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<v Speaker 1>out for a retreat. And so he worked right through

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<v Speaker 1>it and now looking back, regrets that because you realize

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<v Speaker 1>that it maybe didn't set the best example for his team.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is also coming at a time where you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we are kind of moving into this different phase of

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<v Speaker 1>the pandemic. It's not lockdowns and you know, all the

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<v Speaker 1>strict rules anymore. And even companies that once had you know,

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<v Speaker 1>changed their sick leave programs whatever it is, and even

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<v Speaker 1>you know, providing some more pay for their workers are

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<v Speaker 1>changing all that stuff. Amazon, Walmart, They've all kind of

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<v Speaker 1>gone back to some of their pre pandemic models exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's a really interesting moment, especially as

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<v Speaker 1>more workers are starting to return to the office. But

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<v Speaker 1>in some cases on a hybrid basis, Like you said,

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<v Speaker 1>some companies are dropping the special benefits they introduced during

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<v Speaker 1>the pandemic, and at the same time you're seeing a

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<v Speaker 1>counter push where mental health is really on the agenda

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<v Speaker 1>for a lot of workplaces, and companies are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>figure out how to support people and taking the time

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<v Speaker 1>off that they need. One thing you're seeing companies do

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<v Speaker 1>is offer what they're calling mental health days or mental

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<v Speaker 1>health weeks, where they shut down the entire company. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's not like one person might be off but still

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<v Speaker 1>getting emails and needing invitations from their colleagues. Everyone is

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<v Speaker 1>really forced to log off. That's a pretty cool for

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<v Speaker 1>you know, some of the companies that can do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know employees that can benefit from that, but

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<v Speaker 1>obviously that's not the case everywhere. You know, just going

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<v Speaker 1>back to my own example, I do the podcast, I

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<v Speaker 1>do a bunch of other things, but we post every

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<v Speaker 1>day pretty much for the podcast, and if I dropped

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<v Speaker 1>out then we wouldn't have anything. So, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>told my producer, I was like, I'll work through some interviews,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll do something. I was sweating at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>those interviews. I was like, how to take a deep

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<v Speaker 1>breath at the end of it. I mean, is it

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<v Speaker 1>just all in our minds that, well, you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>do we need to do here in this country to

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<v Speaker 1>get over that? I think it's it's such an interlocking

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<v Speaker 1>kind of range of challenges, and it you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>legal challenge of America being the only wealthy country that

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't guarantee peticularly, it's you know, the cultural norms that

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<v Speaker 1>that reinforces around working while you're sick. And then it's

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<v Speaker 1>the example of people sat for one another and if

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<v Speaker 1>you reflected in their bosses. So you know, on every level,

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<v Speaker 1>I think America is really kind of valorized working even

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<v Speaker 1>while people are unwell. Yeah, and you know, on the

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<v Speaker 1>on the other side of it too, does it really

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<v Speaker 1>hinder how fast you get better? Right? And you say, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a mild case, so I can still do this,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're not truly resting. You know, you're not giving

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<v Speaker 1>your body that time to heal. And does it prolong

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<v Speaker 1>the illness? So you know a lot of people say

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people would say yes. It's a big

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<v Speaker 1>question that people are asking, is is the absence of

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<v Speaker 1>pay quickly by actually making people sicker? And I spoke

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<v Speaker 1>with one woman who noted she or her husband, and

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<v Speaker 1>her son all called COVID. Her son stayed home from school,

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<v Speaker 1>her husband took a little bit more time to rest,

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<v Speaker 1>and she felt too guilty, so she just worked right

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<v Speaker 1>through it. And she reflected that she feels she might

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<v Speaker 1>have healed a little bit faster if she'd taken time

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<v Speaker 1>to really sleep and let her body recuperate. Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you said she felt guilty. I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people feel that way, and you know, we have to

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<v Speaker 1>break free from that and really do allow our bodies

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<v Speaker 1>to heal and take that time. It's tough. It's tough

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<v Speaker 1>in this culture that we have here in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>But hopefully we can get that too, to be on

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<v Speaker 1>better terms now, Emma Goldberg reported The New York Times.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much for joining us, Thanks for having

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<v Speaker 1>me on. I'm Oscar Ramirez and this has been reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't forget the effort. Today's big news stories. You can

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<v Speaker 1>check me out on the Daily Dive podcast every Monday

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<v Speaker 1>through Friday, so follow us on I Heart Radio or

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<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your podcast