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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyon. In this episode number forty three,

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Speaker 1: Tay in the show, we're joined by renowned wildlife biologist

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Speaker 1: and white tail manager Dr Grant Woods to discuss how

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Speaker 1: we can handle white tail management adversity. All right, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Wire to Hunt podcast. And today we've got

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Speaker 1: a really exceptional show in store for you guys, because

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Speaker 1: we're being joined by Dr Grant Woods, the host of

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Speaker 1: Growing Dear TV and really one of the foremost experts

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Speaker 1: on deer and deer management. And I wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: Grant onto the show to help us continue a conversation

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Speaker 1: We started a few episodes back when we had Kip

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Speaker 1: Adams on the podcast to discuss the current state of

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Speaker 1: white tails, and in that episode, Kip shared a number

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Speaker 1: of challenges that deer and deer hunters are facing across

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Speaker 1: the country and their challenges that I imagine many of

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Speaker 1: you are dealing with right now too. So that said,

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Speaker 1: now that we've identified some of these challenges, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to chat with grant about how we can deal with

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Speaker 1: these issues. So in a few minutes, we're going to

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Speaker 1: bring Dr Woods on the line. And I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: about that because I know we're all going to learn

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Speaker 1: a lot today. But Dan, are you as excited as

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Speaker 1: I am about this conversation. Well, he's a doctor, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean not like a doctor that I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not like fixed my cold kind of doctor. But he's

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Speaker 1: a doctor. Like he's a dear doctor, right, He's a

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Speaker 1: biologist that has a doctorate. Right, Yes, that is correct,

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Speaker 1: and that's pretty cool because doctor it's seemed to be

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Speaker 1: the biggest losers on the planet. But unless you're actually

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Speaker 1: a doctor. But because I met this one guy at

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Speaker 1: one time and he was a doctorate of English, and

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Speaker 1: I just didn't get along with him that well. He

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Speaker 1: always was like correcting me, and I'm not you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not very good with words or writing or talking

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Speaker 1: for the most part, so he was he was just

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Speaker 1: correcting me the whole time. But this guy, he's he's

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Speaker 1: a he's a doctor of deer, and I really like Deer.

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Speaker 1: So I think we're gonna have a pretty good conversation

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Speaker 1: with him today. Yeah, yeah, we definitely are. UM. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how familiar you are with Growing Dear TV

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Speaker 1: or what Grant's done, but he is just absolute wealth

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Speaker 1: of information about white tales and managing for white tales,

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Speaker 1: and habitat improvements and and really everything related to deer. UM.

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Speaker 1: I actually got to participate. I actually got to go

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Speaker 1: down to Missouri, I think three or four years ago

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Speaker 1: UM for the cut Amaze Dear Steward course, and as

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Speaker 1: part of that we got to UM actually tour Grant

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Speaker 1: Woods property down there, which was really really cool. He's

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Speaker 1: got just unbelievable property, and we gets to see all

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Speaker 1: the different things he's been putting in place and why

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Speaker 1: he's been doing things and how he's been doing things.

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Speaker 1: And Uh, I think in short, I just took if

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Speaker 1: anything that took away from that, it was that there

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Speaker 1: is so much to be done when it comes to

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Speaker 1: when it comes to deer and managing deer and and

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Speaker 1: to and there's so much to learn. So I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to spend a little extra time here with Grant learning.

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Speaker 1: He's a great teacher, he's a great speaker. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: for anyone that's watched an episode of Growing Dear TV,

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Speaker 1: UM which is Grant's web show. If you've seen that,

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Speaker 1: you know that he's just a terrific guy to listen to.

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Speaker 1: And um I'm thrilled that he's going to join us

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Speaker 1: here on the Wire Dump podcast to to kind of

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Speaker 1: share his two cents on a number of these issues. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I just love learning about the science, you know,

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Speaker 1: because because here we are where you know, we may

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Speaker 1: be giving tips and tricks to our listeners, or you

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Speaker 1: may read an article about what you should do, you know,

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Speaker 1: to hold bigger deer, but but then finding out the

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Speaker 1: science behind it and the reasoning for those tips for

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Speaker 1: tricks or you know, food plots or whatnot you can

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Speaker 1: is just it blows my mind. And that's the stuff

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Speaker 1: I love to learn about. Yeah, yeah, you and me both. I.

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Speaker 1: Um I had a phone called Grant a couple of

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Speaker 1: months ago, a month or two ago, um I was

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Speaker 1: interviewing him for for a story and had some questions

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Speaker 1: to him for him regarding kind of everything going on

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Speaker 1: right now in the white tailed world, and he just

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Speaker 1: had a tremendous amount of perspective and insight into so

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Speaker 1: many different issues that we talked about, you know, two

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Speaker 1: weeks ago with Kip when he started talking through some

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Speaker 1: of the kind of state of white tails across the

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Speaker 1: country and some of the numbers that we're seeing and

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Speaker 1: some of the challenges, and Grant had some really really

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Speaker 1: interesting insights, And as I was talking to him during

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Speaker 1: that conversation, I just thought, you know, we have to

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Speaker 1: get him here on two on the show to talk

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Speaker 1: about some of those things. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anymore that you need to say.

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Speaker 1: I think we just need to get Grant on the line.

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Speaker 1: We need to, you know, get some questions in front

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Speaker 1: of them, and we need to just sit down and

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Speaker 1: listen and take notes and hear what Grant has to say.

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Speaker 1: Because I think you and me and hopefully a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people listening, I think there's a lot that

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Speaker 1: we can learn from Dr Grant Woods. So what do

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Speaker 1: you say we get Grant on the line? Sounds good?

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Speaker 1: All right? Here with us on the line? Is Dr

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Speaker 1: Grant Woods? Welcome to show? Grant, Hey sparked, Hey, we

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Speaker 1: are really excited to have you on. Dan and I

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Speaker 1: were just talking a couple of minutes ago about the

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Speaker 1: fact that we just feel like, you know, for this

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Speaker 1: show this week, given what we've been talking about over

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Speaker 1: the past couple of weeks. You are really just the

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Speaker 1: perfect guy to give us a perspective on how to

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Speaker 1: handle kind of some of these new challenges that deer

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Speaker 1: and deer hunters are facing, uh, you know, in the

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Speaker 1: current day and time. But before we get into this

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Speaker 1: kind of really big and exciting topic, for those that

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Speaker 1: maybe aren't familiar with you, Grant, can you share with

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of back on as to you know,

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Speaker 1: what you do today and what experiences you bring to

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Speaker 1: the table. Yeah. Great, Well, you know, just I'm getting

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Speaker 1: to be an old man on fifty three and I

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Speaker 1: schooled here in Missouri and then University of Georgia and

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Speaker 1: finished with the Clemson And those were kind of the heydays.

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Speaker 1: Deer populations were going growing throughout the White Kills Range

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Speaker 1: and more and more expanded hunting opportunities, and guys were

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Speaker 1: just starting to buy land for for recreation or for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting, and of course, you know that's a long

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Speaker 1: ways from where we are now rest of normal stuff.

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Speaker 1: And and through that time, dear populations kept increasing until

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Speaker 1: you know, decade or a little bit longer ago, and

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Speaker 1: and then it started decreasing in some areas, and hadat

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Speaker 1: loss is certainly came to play and a lot of

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Speaker 1: pettters come in along that way. I started trying to

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Speaker 1: find ways to share information rather than one on one.

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Speaker 1: I've been a private consultant for twenty five years, we've

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Speaker 1: been incorporated twenty five years, and we started just using

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Speaker 1: the internet website Growing your Dot TV. We simply film

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Speaker 1: what we're doing every week fifty two weeks out of year.

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Speaker 1: Film one week and have a show up next week

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Speaker 1: and it's onneting and hunting season or the sty fire

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Speaker 1: or trapping or whatever we're doing. We just share that

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Speaker 1: with the public. There's about nine minutes long, and it's

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Speaker 1: a good project for us. Yeah, I've I personally have

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed what you're doing over there with Growing Dear TV.

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Speaker 1: And obviously over the past you know, three or four

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Speaker 1: years or however long it's been going, it's just grown

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Speaker 1: tremendously and everyone I've ever talked to about it has

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Speaker 1: has really found to be a helpful resource. So I

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Speaker 1: think you're you're definitely taking that knowledge that you were sharing,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned, you know, one on one or with

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Speaker 1: your with your clients and You've been able to just

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Speaker 1: bring that to it's such a such a wider audience

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Speaker 1: is pretty incredible. UM. So you know that being the case,

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Speaker 1: and if if we're talking about how do we, you know,

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Speaker 1: bring some of your knowledge and your experiences to this

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Speaker 1: wider audience. That's what I'm hoping to do here today

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Speaker 1: to UM. You know, as I mentioned, we talked with

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Speaker 1: Kip a few weeks ago about the state of white

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Speaker 1: tails and he mentioned a number of challenges and he

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Speaker 1: also gave us kind of a diagnosis of his own

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Speaker 1: of of what he thinks the current state of white

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Speaker 1: tails is. UM. But that was his own perspective. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to kick things off Koreant. You know, could

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Speaker 1: you could you share with us your own personal diagnosis

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Speaker 1: of what you think the overall white tail situation is

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Speaker 1: across the country. I know that's it's hard to do

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Speaker 1: as there's things that are very localized, but at a

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Speaker 1: high level, can you give us your two cents on

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Speaker 1: on what the situation is today across the white tail world.

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Speaker 1: Are we in a good shape, bad shape? Or you know,

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Speaker 1: what are your thoughts at a high level on that issue.

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Speaker 1: I think we're on the tail end of being in

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Speaker 1: great shape. So anytime something's taken away from any of us,

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Speaker 1: we don't really like it. We've had just large, healthy

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Speaker 1: deer populations for again, about a decade or so, just

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Speaker 1: wide open hunting opportunities. You know, some states just guys

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Speaker 1: still more deering in any of us need legally, and

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Speaker 1: and those are being reduced to predators and through habitat

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Speaker 1: loss and through over harvest in some areas, and so

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Speaker 1: state agencies have or are talking about taking away hunting

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Speaker 1: off tunities, and no one likes that, myself included, and

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Speaker 1: so in some areas. But we're so great, and what

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Speaker 1: are some honey hooles out there were? Hunting is better

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Speaker 1: than never And by some measures, you know, we're harvesting

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Speaker 1: more older bucks right now as a percentage than we

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Speaker 1: ever have. Our our herds seem to have a more

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Speaker 1: balanced adult sex ray show and rattling and grunt calls

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Speaker 1: and huntings, grapes works and more and more areas. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, some places there's actually more food

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Speaker 1: than deer. Populations are down some states drastically down, harvest

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Speaker 1: down thirty in those cases, you know, we haven't lost

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Speaker 1: fifty cent of the deer habitat in the last three

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Speaker 1: or four years, So definitely some missues out there. The

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Speaker 1: great thing is we do have a lot of knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and I think all the issues we're facing, almost all

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Speaker 1: of them can be fixed and pretty short order if

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Speaker 1: hunners and agencies are willing to take those steps. That's

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Speaker 1: I like to hear about optimism, UM, you know, in

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Speaker 1: regards to you know, how those issues can be fixed. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I want to take some time here to dive

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Speaker 1: into some of those potential solutions. UM. But I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm I guess at a high level, grant, can you

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Speaker 1: address a couple of those things? What do you see

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Speaker 1: as the as the largest challenges at a high level? Um?

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Speaker 1: And then what do you think some of the things

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Speaker 1: that we or the agencies and hunters and other organizations

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Speaker 1: can do to address those? Okay, at a really high level,

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Speaker 1: I think agencies have to give more control of deer

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Speaker 1: management to landowners or dear co ops or you know whatever.

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Speaker 1: Each state can have a different way of doing that.

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Speaker 1: But to the end users how I like to phrase it,

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Speaker 1: and whatever form that end user or the hunter on

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Speaker 1: the ground is. So hunters tend to see trends of

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Speaker 1: deer hurts declining, uh, the severity of disese outbreaks tend

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Speaker 1: to pick those up quicker than agencies. Agencies are usually

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Speaker 1: working on one to three years past harvest data, and

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Speaker 1: you know, in a big day, they're a really well

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Speaker 1: funded state may have ten or twelve people working on deer.

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Speaker 1: We're in that state, there may be half a million

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Speaker 1: deer hunters, So there's a lot of eyes out there

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Speaker 1: and literally thousands of joke candas and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: stuff going. So I think when agencies stay in a model,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna write a tenure deer manager plan

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Speaker 1: for state X, y Z, and then they're committed to

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Speaker 1: that plan. In the middle of that plan, there's an

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Speaker 1: h D HIM radjet d's outbreak or child populations just

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Speaker 1: blow up faster than anyone predicted, and the agency doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to change their model, and hunters are screaming and crying, gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not seeing near the deer I used to see,

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Speaker 1: or or whatever case may be. There's got to be

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Speaker 1: a way for the agencies to be more interactive, and

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Speaker 1: I think that way is to allow landowners that collect data,

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Speaker 1: harvest data, observation data, and are showing their good stewards

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Speaker 1: and the resource to give them the freedom to make

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Speaker 1: changes or choices along the way. So there's two ways

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Speaker 1: to do that. Sixteen states currently have a d MAP program.

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Speaker 1: That's dear Management, the systems program same some states called

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Speaker 1: a different name, but basically it allows landowners or joining

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Speaker 1: landowners to ride a management plan as long as they

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Speaker 1: collect data and that you know the plans within pretty

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Speaker 1: reasonable bounds. The state says, okay, how many DEAR tags

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Speaker 1: you need, So you're setting basically the harvest quota property

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Speaker 1: by property, and that is the epitome or the top

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Speaker 1: of deer management. That's when you have concerned landowners and

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Speaker 1: hunters in an area doing what's best for a resource.

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Speaker 1: And you go all the way down to the other

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Speaker 1: Internet spectrum and you have a state that says we're

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Speaker 1: going to do X y Z statewide and even anybody

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Speaker 1: states like Delaware just three counties in the state of Delaware.

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Speaker 1: There's big differences from one side of the state to

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Speaker 1: the other, and one rule just does not apply to

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Speaker 1: the whole state. So agencies at the thirty out on

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Speaker 1: foot level have to become more flexible and work hand

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Speaker 1: in hand with the guides and gals on the ground

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Speaker 1: to avoid this, this kind of decreasing dear heard numbers

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Speaker 1: and even quality in some areas from fighting further down

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Speaker 1: the slope. Okay, that makes that makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: Now you you talked there about, you know, the responsibility

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Speaker 1: on the side of the of the agency to to

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Speaker 1: enable the private landowner. Um, something that you and I

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Speaker 1: had talked about maybe a month or two ago. UM

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Speaker 1: kind of related to the subject as you talked about

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Speaker 1: the fact that more you know, correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: but I believe you've said something on the lines of

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Speaker 1: the fact that today, more than ever, you know, the

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Speaker 1: responsibility has to shift to the landowner or if the

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Speaker 1: landowner wants to see the types of results that we

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Speaker 1: have seen over the past ten years, more of that

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Speaker 1: responsibility needs to be on the shoulders of the landowner

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Speaker 1: or the individual hunter on public lander, whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: to start taking um, some taking some responsible to themselves

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Speaker 1: to improving the situation or taking an active hand in

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Speaker 1: managing their area. Um. You know, do you believe that

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Speaker 1: same additional responsibility now has to stand um, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the hunters to given these changes? Absolutely, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is. It's really pretty simple, you know.

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Speaker 1: And again, I'm fifty three. I was raised in Missouri.

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Speaker 1: I currently live in Missouri. I was raised in the

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Speaker 1: county that did not have a deer season even in

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Speaker 1: my lifetime. I lived through the restoration. And he's talking

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Speaker 1: of deer two Geyster's that we can even kill antlerless

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Speaker 1: deer while there's a lot of deer two. Now there's

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Speaker 1: you know, urban programs trying to harvest even more dear

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Speaker 1: and crop damage. Uh So I kind of live through

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Speaker 1: that whole spectrum. But when we started, everyone was so thrilled,

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Speaker 1: myself and my family and TWU did just to see

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Speaker 1: a deer that one statewide regulation one bird, one buck,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, per hunter was a great management plan. No

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Speaker 1: one was even using the word but quality or age structure,

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Speaker 1: or conception dates or sex ratios. It was dear hunting.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with that if that's what most people want.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what most people want. Survey after survey

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Speaker 1: tells us that today and the rules were really simple,

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Speaker 1: and the rule applied from one side of Missouri to

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Speaker 1: the other side of Missouri, and everyone was pretty much happy.

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Speaker 1: Public land, private land, not a lot of difference as

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Speaker 1: people have started figured out well we could, you're getting

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Speaker 1: bigger as they get older. Males produce more antlers, more

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Speaker 1: inches of antler as they get older. Typically we can

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Speaker 1: plant food plots and forceded areas and raised the nutrition level.

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Speaker 1: We're deer or even grow bigger than average in a

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Speaker 1: totally forested area. So now the landscape is this vast

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Speaker 1: array of different maazement goals of jeffies, not county by county,

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Speaker 1: but even a lot of areas property by property for

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Speaker 1: simply not enough resources in any state agency to address

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Speaker 1: all those landowners. So in my in my view, the

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Speaker 1: best row of state can do is collect overall herd

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Speaker 1: health indicators. Body weights are really easy to collect, age

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Speaker 1: of harvest, check for diseases. And this is the biggie,

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Speaker 1: and this is where some states don't live up to

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Speaker 1: what I think they should to ride unbiased, really good information.

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Speaker 1: So landowners and hunters can make decisions and kind of

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Speaker 1: manage their property for their goals and objectives. And in

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Speaker 1: some states seams maybe don't want to give up that control,

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Speaker 1: or maybe don't know and don't want to admit they

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Speaker 1: don't know, or simply just you know, we've been doing

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Speaker 1: this for ten years. By golly, we're not changing now.

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Speaker 1: But those times are over. They're absolutely done. And landowners

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Speaker 1: by land small properties, large properties for the sole purpose

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Speaker 1: of deer honey, any want ability or the flexibility and

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Speaker 1: their regulations to manage that your heard for their goals

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Speaker 1: and objectives. They're not buying land just to shoot the

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Speaker 1: first year and a half a bucket. See, that's just

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Speaker 1: an absolute fact. You know, no one goes out and

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Speaker 1: buy the big o ranch or even a small ranch,

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Speaker 1: says well, I sure, hope I should despite the day

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Speaker 1: I just made my day. That just doesn't happen. And

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Speaker 1: it's not bad. I think it's great because you know what,

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Speaker 1: healthier deer have larger antlers. That's a fact. And so

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Speaker 1: some people get mad about talking about antlers. Man, I

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Speaker 1: love it because I know if there's older, mature deer,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I'm talking realistic cantler. It's not something

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Speaker 1: raised in the ten nak er ten just full of steroids,

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Speaker 1: you know, realistic, wild, free ranging deer. Man. I love

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Speaker 1: guys talking about antlers because antlers mean there were healthy fonds,

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Speaker 1: there were healthy does, there's plenty of good habitat, plenty

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Speaker 1: of escape cover, the stress level of that deer's down.

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Speaker 1: You know, with all those components, a lot of non

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Speaker 1: game species are benefiting also, so own birds with tiles,

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Speaker 1: other species. But we're not going to go out and

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Speaker 1: say today, hey, folks, we all need to manage for

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Speaker 1: the flatwood Salamantham. You're just not gonna gain any traction.

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Speaker 1: There's a small following out there, but not much. But

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Speaker 1: when we say let's have better habitat for deer, a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of species benefit. Yeah. And um, something you

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Speaker 1: said that I think ties in really well with with

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Speaker 1: where I wanted to take things next. And that's the

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Speaker 1: fact that, um, you know, we're taking a look at

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Speaker 1: how to measure the health of the herd, and you

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Speaker 1: mentioned antlers are great indicator of healthy deer um. And

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Speaker 1: we also talked about, you know, moving the responsibility away

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Speaker 1: from not just the agencies and everything, but we need

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Speaker 1: to manage at the property level or the more region

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Speaker 1: specific level. So for our listeners who now we're you know,

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Speaker 1: we've we've talked all about some of the different challenges.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about things that we hope will happen at

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Speaker 1: a high level. But I really want to focus now

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Speaker 1: on you know, what can what can we do on

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Speaker 1: the ground to to address some of these issues. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know some of the things you mentioned were over

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Speaker 1: harvest or disease, outbreak or predation. Um, I guess to

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Speaker 1: start though, I'm curious, Grant, you know, how can someone

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Speaker 1: assess the state or the health of their local white

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Speaker 1: tail herd? And you know what do they need to

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Speaker 1: look at to see? You know, is my white tailer struggling?

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Speaker 1: Do I need to be worried about these things? Or

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Speaker 1: am I? Okay? Okay? So for any assessment to have value,

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Speaker 1: you must have some type of baseline to compare it to.

365
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Speaker 1: And I default based on my professors, who at the

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Speaker 1: time I thought were crazy, but in hindsight I respect them.

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Speaker 1: I was finishing my PhD to ask me a question,

368
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Speaker 1: what did the deerhood he heard look like pre European

369
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Speaker 1: selver one thing? A little guys, no one was here,

370
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Speaker 1: How do we know? You know, who could possibly know that?

371
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Speaker 1: But you don't know, Argue. You go the library and

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Speaker 1: you dig, an, you dig, and it turns out that

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Speaker 1: archaeologists had had dug up recovered over tens or at

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Speaker 1: least I could find records for over in thousand pelvic

375
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Speaker 1: girdles from Indian middens or basically Indian trash heaps, and

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Speaker 1: in the archaeologist studied these not for the deer he safe,

377
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Speaker 1: but they were looking at Aboriginal butchering techniques they would

378
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Speaker 1: find there were time to get there's a pattern of deer.

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Speaker 1: Deer hunters at that time, Native Americans butcher dear the

380
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Speaker 1: same way. They're looking for rock marks or cup marks

381
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Speaker 1: on different major bones to sit there the same north

382
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Speaker 1: southeast west and deer by their pelvic girdle. It's very

383
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Speaker 1: different between a male and a female. You can very

384
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Speaker 1: accurately determine the gender of a white skilled deer by

385
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Speaker 1: the pelvic girdle. So you've got a helpic size of

386
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Speaker 1: the ten thousand from Florida North Dakota. You can kind

387
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Speaker 1: of see if they were killing more bucks, and does

388
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Speaker 1: you know what they killed fifty fifty All these are

389
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Speaker 1: guys with addle addles or bows or rocks or man

390
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 1: drives or whatever. They didn't have thirty six in dortex,

391
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Speaker 1: and they were killing the fifty fifty sex ration almost

392
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Speaker 1: better than any state in America right now. And then

393
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Speaker 1: you can also get kind of a pretty good feel

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Speaker 1: about the age of deer, like you know, new or

395
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Speaker 1: year old pretty accurately two to three, three four or

396
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Speaker 1: five I say seven, So basically young, immature, you know,

397
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Speaker 1: middle aged, mature, and senile. And we reconstructed or I

398
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: reconstructed the deer herd before European settlement. Based on all

399
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Speaker 1: these records out of museums around America, it turns out

400
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Speaker 1: almost sixth cent of the deer they're harvesting are mature,

401
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: are three years old and old. Almost no state in

402
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Speaker 1: America does it. Now Bucks end ups and you're thinking

403
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Speaker 1: about this. Okay, you're sitting in the TP his code.

404
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: Mama wants to new maxins. You need some meat. You're

405
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: not worried about if it's stores one, three four, just

406
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 1: trying to get one about seven ft because that's the

407
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: average shot distance literally, and so you're just going for deer.

408
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 1: And they had no bias based on antlers or or

409
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Speaker 1: anything else. And it turned out that there was a

410
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: really older age structured deer in the harvest because there

411
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,719
Speaker 1: are plenty older deer out there, and a balanced sixth ratio.

412
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Speaker 1: They shout at the first deer they could get hold

413
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Speaker 1: of a trapped it or anyway they could acquire that

414
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: meat in that leather and those tools. So we're gonna

415
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Speaker 1: call that a healthy deer because that's what was here

416
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Speaker 1: before there was any biased selection bias selection excuse me,

417
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Speaker 1: and now and then the other really simple indicator. And

418
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Speaker 1: I like, I'm a man, I'm a body, so I

419
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: love really detailed data sending teeth actor Matson's lab and

420
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 1: all that stuff is great for me, but really, simply,

421
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: is there more deer than there's quality food and neat

422
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 1: area you hunt? Not food but quality food. So you know,

423
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Speaker 1: I live in hills, are mountains men, There's more acorns

424
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Speaker 1: and deer to eat this year, but that's not quality food.

425
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Speaker 1: Acorns are not quality food. So because there more quality

426
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Speaker 1: food and deer, if there is, I need to back

427
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: off my harvest and allow my deer population to expand

428
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: a little bit. Or on my deer browsing, on opending

429
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: on where you are wing down south sweet dumb ease

430
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 1: or up door. Certain species that are really not that

431
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: desirable are they just barely making it through? And this

432
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: is the simplest qualified biologists and in a landowner tablettle

433
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: training walking through his property, especially during the late winter

434
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: that's a stress period, or late summer August can be

435
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: a stress period. And seeing what forward species are being

436
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: browsed on, and within a few minutes you can say,

437
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: but we need to harvest some more doughs, or we

438
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 1: need to back off our dough harvest a little bit.

439
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: You notice I didn't say bucks, because they're non factors.

440
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: They're not part of reproduction unit. As far as giving

441
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: us more fonts, one buck con service a lot of dose.

442
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: So it's the dough harvest we're always interested in. Everyone

443
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: wants to talk bucks, but we gotta talk dough harvest. Now,

444
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: that's how to quantify. That's a good indicator. Okay, you

445
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: know my food plots are are nibbled down to the ground.

446
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: I need to harvest more deer or plant more food

447
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: or do something or gosh, I can't tell you've been

448
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: using my food plucks. There's no complaints that crop damage

449
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 1: in neighborhood or if I plant trees are not being

450
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: browsed off, I can allow this dear her to expand

451
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: a little bit. That's just them. Never fails, never let

452
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: you down. It's when we start trying to say we

453
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: have ten points seven deer for square mile or sixty

454
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: seven point three deer for square mile, And we start

455
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: arguing because the wild pre engineer are tough to count,

456
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: we can get really accurate estimates that almost never a

457
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: census on exact population count. So as I've matured in

458
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: my career, how were less and less about how many

459
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: deer or per square mile and more about how much

460
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: quality food risk for square mile? And this is a

461
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: very simple thing for people to evaluate and keep annual records.

462
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: While I'm noticing a lot of brows on sweet gum,

463
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: I gotta harvest some deer or man, I've seen a

464
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: lot of native plants that I know dear like to

465
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: eat and are surviving, the reproducing, the making seed. The

466
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: deer not over browsing them. I believe get back off

467
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: my dough harvest allowed her to be more deer in

468
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: the area. Take that up. Whatnot? Camera surveys are relatively

469
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: simple to do. There's plenty of troup cameras out there.

470
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 1: Even if you're a small property owner working on two

471
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: or three neighbors, and you can get a pretty accurate

472
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: estimate of your sex ratio, the age structure of your bucks,

473
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: and the deer for square minds, that data may or

474
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: may not be necessary to manage to herd. But if

475
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: you come to a challenge, well, you know, the state

476
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: says or some animal white group says whatever. Now you

477
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: have hard and fast data you can use lasting like

478
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: say that doesn't lie the body weights averaged over time.

479
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: So we know pretty much. You know, a yearling dough

480
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: needs to weigh this and the hardwood force, and it's

481
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: gonna weigh adapt plus twenty pounds in an agricultural area.

482
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: And sure bucks are gonna wait this and a hardwood

483
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: force and they're gonna wait x plus in an agricultural area.

484
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: And if your body weights are trending up, it's probably

485
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: to have some more to do out there. You're losing

486
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: dear somehow, or to have a tast improving, or something's

487
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: going on. If your body weights you're training down over

488
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 1: a period of two or three years, I should need

489
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: to figure out what's going on there. So so I

490
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: don't I don't own property, and I'm in no way

491
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: a scientist. I guess, how what are some specific things

492
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: that a guy like myself, who the only way I

493
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: can hunt is have permission on somebody else's property or

494
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: public land. How how do how would I go about

495
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: knowing that a particular crop is not as abundant, or

496
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: a particular like the acorns didn't drop, or there's a

497
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: certain foliage that wasn't getting um nibbled on because I,

498
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, over the years, I haven't really paid attention

499
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, So again it's just pretty simple observational skills.

500
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: So you're on public land, its managed for old rage trees,

501
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: and there's a clothes canopy, and you happen to notice

502
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: that ever maple limb that's on the ground after a windstorm,

503
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: the bark is dripped off the next day and there's

504
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: no leaves. There's too dear, they're wiped on that soon

505
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: as it hits the ground. You're just really simple. If

506
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: deer are hustling that hard to make a living, there's

507
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: too many deer and it's not just that there's not

508
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: enough food. Many of the parasites that really impact dear

509
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: their life cycle is they're they're on the vegetation to

510
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: a worm or whatever have you, and the deer eat it.

511
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: And the closer there eating to the ground, the more

512
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: those parasites they ingest. So there's a prime example, there's

513
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: an avalancial worm or worm that's big enough you can see,

514
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: and it happens to collect in the second chamber of

515
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: a deer stomach. Deer have don't have four stomaches like

516
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: people often say, they have one stomach with four chambers.

517
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: And so we know and we cut into that second

518
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: chamber to stomach. If there's five hundred or fewer of

519
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: this particular type of stomach worm, then there's quality more

520
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: food than there's deer. They're just like getting a very

521
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: big load of the quality. You have a few of

522
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: these ones and near hunter system still, and there's about

523
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: five hundred to fifteen hundred, it's probably about the right

524
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: amount of deer for the right amount of food. But

525
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: if there's over fifteen hundred, there's no magic. It's not

526
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: like fifteen no long. But you know, you've got eighteen

527
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: hundred or those deer eating so close to the ground

528
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: that they're ingesting the larvae of these particular parasites, and

529
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: there's just too many deers they're eating too close to

530
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: the ground. So there's very specific measures, but muscles, as

531
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: you said, need the scientists or a landlord spree trained

532
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: in doing that. The simpler and just as accurate as

533
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: I've matured. Way is whatever the preferred food is near area,

534
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: maybe it's wild strawberries, and maybe it's maple limb. Just

535
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: you know where you are, it's poison ivy, And some

536
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: areas believe or not, poison ivy is great deer brows.

537
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: And if you're walking through the woods, and every poison

538
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: I believe it's five ft high or higher on a

539
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: tree and blows that the deer brows it off. You've

540
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: got too many deer and and so everyone asks how

541
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: many sere deer? Well in the clothes canopy, you know,

542
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: old grow forest, it maybe ten deer for square mile

543
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: in Iowa where there's soybeans everywhere, and maybe a hundred

544
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: and fifty deer for square mile. It depends on the

545
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: type of habitat where you are. So my land in

546
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: Sell then Missouri's in the middle of a big old

547
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: clothes cannot be forced and fescue pasture, no agg anywhere around.

548
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: You never see. There's no such thing as a combine

549
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: or anything like that in the county. I live in

550
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: green drills going down the road, no silos, and none

551
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: of that exists. But a mile land we have through

552
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: the plots and we line them for lives and we

553
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: do good work, and you know, and we do some

554
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: prescribed fire and stuff. And I carry about a hundred

555
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: deer per square mile and very healthy deer, very very

556
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: healthy deer. Anywhere else who sell them Missouri, except for

557
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: other type of landowners are kind of doing the same thing.

558
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: Thirty deer for square mile would be too many. There's

559
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: just not enough food for it. So again, you know,

560
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: if and I'm not saying dood, but let's say Missouri

561
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: Primary Conservation just makes a general rule for all the

562
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: o's art mountains, well, you can't ont harvest doze and

563
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, gosh, I couldn't manage my dear or

564
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: I have no legal way and kill enough there. And

565
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: that's where site specific land management is so important. And

566
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: and the sixteen states that have this DM program have

567
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: proven this, and so many states have that DMA for

568
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: over twenty years. This is nothing new. So kind of

569
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: rounding that segment out. One of my biggest frustrations with

570
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: deer management, especially from an agency point of view, it's

571
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: failing to look across the border, and they always want

572
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: to reinvent the will well We've got to study this

573
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: for ten years and see what we need to do. No,

574
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: you don't. There's a state that's already tried that and

575
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: and and done that and figured out if it works

576
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: or if it does the work and if you need

577
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: to tweak it. Failing to learn from other states for

578
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: other agencies is a huge, huge sin, I believe on

579
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: some agencies. Park. So I'm feeling here, you know, from

580
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: a from me and Dan on the ground or whoever's

581
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 1: on the ground, I think at the big takeaway here

582
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: that I'm taking from, We've had a lot of things here,

583
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: But if I had to take one or two things

584
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: away from this, it sounds like, basically from the standpoint

585
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: from the responsibility of of the hunter, you know, we

586
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: need to become more more observant of what's going on

587
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: around us, because you know, to Dan's point, you know,

588
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: to this point, he hasn't necessarily been paying attention to

589
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: what's been browsed on or are these different things that

590
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: might be indicators. But really, given some of these things

591
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: happen and giving some of those challenges, really it would

592
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: be you know, beneficial for all of us individual hunters,

593
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: landowners or public landhunters or whoever it might be, to

594
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: start taking that responsibility of you know, observing what's happening

595
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: around and starting to pay attention to things like brows

596
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: and whether that might be a good thing or a

597
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: bad thing, and what that means for for how we

598
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: should harvest, or you know, taking the next step to

599
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: what you point out, Grant, being you know, try and

600
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 1: trail camera survey. Um. You know, we need to start

601
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: taking some of those things into our own hands versus

602
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: just depending on our state to say, hey, kill this

603
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: many dear, because to your point, Grant, you know, what

604
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: they say at the state level or even county level

605
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: just might not be relevant to our individual peace yep.

606
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: So so let stow all the way back first conversation.

607
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: You know, when we first restored deer and had deer seasons,

608
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: we had just restored deer, so nowhere was overpopulated and

609
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: the plants that natyve veg station or crops had not

610
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: been over browsed by deers. So there's plenty of ice

611
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: cream quality native plants everywhere they restored dere Right, We've

612
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: had deer restored in most are is fifty plus years

613
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: now a lot of those plants are gone dear populations

614
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: got too high back in the eighties and nineties, they

615
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: wipe them out. They are literally gone. And so hunters

616
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: at first didn't have to be naturalists or observing plants

617
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: or brows because there we're just dear, We're just your deer.

618
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: Of course you's food there. That's not the case anymore.

619
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 1: The game has changed. And just like we don't use

620
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: rotary dial phones, if we just go out and set

621
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: and say, boy's your hope for deer watched by? And

622
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: everyone has that mentality, no doubt about it. Do you

623
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: here in America are in big, big trouble? Yeah, So

624
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: so moving on, I think from that, then, you know,

625
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: we've talked about how to assess if there's you know,

626
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: if your white tail herd is healthy or if it

627
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: stands and where it needs to be. Uh, let's talk

628
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: about some of the challenges. And then you know, if

629
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: if we do take a look at this assessment on

630
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: our property and I'm saying, okay, it looks like my

631
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: population is not where it needs to be. Um, you know,

632
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: there's a handful of different typical challenges that we see

633
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: that might be you know, what's causing that. So I'm

634
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: curious from your standpoint, Graham, maybe I'll give you a

635
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: couple of these different options. I'd like to hear your

636
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: perspective on if this happened in your situation, how do

637
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: you handle it. So, let's say example number one. One

638
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: of the typical things that we've seen across a lot

639
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: of states over the past couple of years, especially back

640
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve, was disease outbreak outbreak e h D.

641
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: So let's say we are assessing our local herd. We

642
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: see it's down, and we believe it's because of disease outbreak,

643
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: maybe a bad hit the last summer. What if any

644
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: thing can a land on or do on their own

645
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: ground or with their own behavior and hunting tactics, what

646
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: can they do to help that herd um get back

647
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: to healthy level. Yeah, So at my property in two

648
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, we lost about a third of the

649
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: standing deer crofts with HD hemor radget disease, which is

650
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: totally different than to c w D chronic wasting disease.

651
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: A lot it's infusion about that still, and we do

652
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: intensive camera surveys and and and so it's a year

653
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: HD hit in my part of the world. We do

654
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: our camera survey every August, and it didn't really hit

655
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: to late August September, so that survey didn't pick it up,

656
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: and we could have not evenly win in that season,

657
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: said guys, we need to kill fifteen deer about deer

658
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: for hunter acres or so does and we would have

659
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: really heard our herd because we lost. In hindsight, looking

660
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: back in the next year's camera survey, we lost about

661
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: a third of our herd the HD hymmeor radjet CIEs

662
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: one third bloom gone. And but because we're out hunting

663
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: the property and were observant and we're watching for vultures

664
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: and you know stuff all the time, we started to

665
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: pick it up dead deer by creating some ponds. And

666
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I said, well, this isn't good. I don't know how

667
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: Stincy this is seasons or he goes from September fifteenth

668
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: to January, let's don harvest. They does. We kind of

669
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: get in October so November and kind of see where

670
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: this disease is going this year, and sure enough it

671
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: was a really bad case and we just held off

672
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: the dough harvest and then the next year had a

673
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: really low level doll harvest and in two years we're

674
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: right back up the hundred deer square mile. So some

675
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: times landowners may be absent key landowners, they live a

676
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: state away and they may not be able to be

677
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: there watching this unfold. But someone their neighbors are, or

678
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: something is. And this is where a solutionist is is

679
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: deer management co ops or neighborhood co ops because someone's

680
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: out there on the land, someone's walking their top fields

681
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: or checking a trap line or doing something and they're

682
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: picking up these indicators or signs said, well, this isn't right.

683
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: I found three dead beer by the creek. That's just

684
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: not normal. We need to we need to get down

685
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: the Wasson Creek Saturday. Everybody needs to walk from all

686
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: the creek Saturday and see what they find. And that

687
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: localized level. Like in Missouri, at first, the agency was

688
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: staying on not picking on missourige just have lived here. Yeah,

689
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, h D is not a big deal into

690
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: this before in two thousand twelve was unequivalently the worst

691
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: outbreak of HD on the record throughout most of the

692
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: Missouri And you know they're talking at first, well we

693
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: had maybe thousands or died or whatever. El shoot. I

694
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: had individual appliance or farms that we're finding three hundred

695
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: deer dead on one farm, and you know, so it

696
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: was masked. It was tens of thousands of deer across

697
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: the state literally, but the agency wasn't picking up on

698
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: that like a landlord can who's out there checking his cows,

699
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: checking his crops, just hyping with his family on recreational land,

700
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so that responsiveness. You're finding a

701
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: bunch of dead deer, you just know intuitively, we got

702
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: to back off the doe harvest. We don't have the

703
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: many reproductive units out there's were used to happen. And

704
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: if you go ahead and have h D and push

705
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: for your normal dough harvest, and what happened in Missouri

706
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: at a bad outbreak of HD, and that's stay mire.

707
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: We had an acorn crop failure, so deer out any

708
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: opening trying to find brows and very susceptible to harvest too.

709
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: If you hunt an acorn area, your deer herd will

710
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: be driven by acorns, either in the timber hard to

711
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 1: hunt or out in the open. If there's no acorns,

712
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: that's the drive, that's the driving factor of harvest. Above

713
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: and beyond everything else, that's the harvest factor. And if

714
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: you're not in tune of that, which the agency really wanted,

715
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: no way to predict it. So we had a big

716
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: harvest on top of a big outbreak because all the

717
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: deer that we're still alive and remaining rout the know

718
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: the past, you are being field or something, trying to

719
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: find something to eat, and so they probably overshot their

720
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: harvest and it's gonna take an extra two a year

721
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: or two longer for some land owners to recover that

722
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: deer herd. So again, just being tuned in and you're

723
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: hearing this over and over and everyone wants the more,

724
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: you know, an answer, I need to push this button

725
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: like computer, this camera survey. But being tuned in and

726
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: knowing that local deer herd and maybe not you is

727
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: so responsibility. But the neighborhood deer co op or what

728
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: kept going on. I'm a huge fan of neighborhood deer

729
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: co ops because you've got so many eyes and ears

730
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: watching for advanced betator action or poaching or whatever's going on.

731
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: And it's just to ops of the true word of

732
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: co op, of volunteering, no money changing hand, just neighborhood

733
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: co op is an extremely powerful tool, extremely powerful tool

734
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: on disease outbreaks. Yeah, you've gotta be keyed into it.

735
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: The disease c w D. It's a real sleeper. It

736
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: doesn't expose itself like HD. You know everything's fine. A

737
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: month later you're finding a dead deer and you know

738
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: you've got a problem. C w D is slow acting.

739
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: Deer can carry it for three or four years afore

740
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: they show the symptoms or signs, and that's a whole

741
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: different follow laps HSD. There's nothing you can do about

742
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: it except reduced to harvest afterwards, like the deer population

743
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: build backed up and buil again. I have I have

744
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: a kind of a hypothetical question for you. Alright, so

745
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,959
Speaker 1: I have money to go ahead and buy a piece

746
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: of property that has ever before been um managed for deer,

747
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: it has it has population A let's say, So what

748
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: I do is I go in, I plant food plots,

749
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: I create more cover, and I now have a property

750
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: that can hold, you know, healthily hold more dear mhm.

751
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: How does how does population and disease kind of work

752
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: hand in hand? I mean, is it good that I

753
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: increased my property to to or better my property to

754
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: hold more dear, But does that higher population then cause

755
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: for a higher risk of disease? No, so again we'll

756
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: go back. No, No, so again. It's it's all about

757
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: quality to habitat and having the appropriate number dear for

758
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: that quality habitat. So no problem. In agg country, you know,

759
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of beans, but a pretty good mixtic cover.

760
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: Holding a hundred and fifty literally two hundred deer for

761
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: square a mile and having very healthy deer doing a

762
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: lot of wooden CROs gets is having twins all that stuff.

763
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: Because there's so much food in a forty acre being filled,

764
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: it would literally take thousands upon thousands up hear me correctly,

765
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: thousands of acres of a hardwood forest to make the

766
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: same amount of food. High quality food is a forty

767
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: acre bean filled. So more dear doesn't tell me anything

768
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: more dear and low quality habitat. Body weights are dropping,

769
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: and remember really simple thing to measures body weights dropping,

770
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: body weights dropping blow, average antler size dropping blow, average

771
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: number of funds dropping blow average, I said, tell tell

772
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: signs that deer distressed, not healthy and more susceptible to parasites.

773
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: We use disease a lot, but Guyster's infinitely more problems

774
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: with parasites. Parasites are each factor, but they're microscopic. A

775
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: lot of them tough to see, and totty much go

776
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: unnoticed by hunters and even a lot of managers. So

777
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: you've improved that property and the deer heard improves, you

778
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: probably have the exact same health. And I said, dear,

779
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: it improved in increases. So you go from just hypothetically

780
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: ten deerer square mile the twenty deer square mile, but

781
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: you doubled the quality of property. It's all the same.

782
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: There's no more stress if you improve the property. But

783
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: if you keep the deer hummers down at ten deer scroom, mind,

784
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: you're gonna grow a lot bigger, dear, Or you improved

785
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: it properly little, but you let the dear herd grow fourfold,

786
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: even though you did some improvements to staining, a couple

787
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: of food plots, maybe made upon but the deer it

788
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: has now increased fourfold. Then your dear heard quality, even

789
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: though you've made some improvements, is going to be a

790
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: lot less. It's always relative to the herd quality and

791
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: habitat quality. And again that's on localized level. No way

792
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: to manage that from a one take a place in

793
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: the state. So so follow up question for your Graham.

794
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: This makes a lot of sense, you know, maintain that

795
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: balance with your herd and quality habitat and food sources

796
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: and everything. But recently, it's especially after the big two

797
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: thousand twelve outbreak of hd UM, there's been a handful

798
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: of companies supplement companies of an advertising and marketing their

799
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: products as a way to um better prepared deer to

800
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: handle or to survive and outbreak like that in the future.

801
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: That can help deer kind of weather that storm. Is

802
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: there any real scientific basis to that? I, I mean

803
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: it sounds like you to what you said earlier, if

804
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: you have quality habitat a deer, what will be possibly

805
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, less susceptible. UM. Is that true when it

806
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: comes to supplementing a herd. You know, I'm not saying

807
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: no unequivocally, but I am not aware of any scientific research.

808
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: It's bad. For example, I just I don't knowing this product.

809
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: I know the I just talked about. I don't knowing

810
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: that emials products in particular what rand in. But let's

811
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: say I know some of the rumors dear need more

812
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: topper you're even more selenium. No, that's not gonna solve.

813
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: There's no magic, one magic bullet that works. There are

814
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: some areas that are low and copper, but it's peop

815
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 1: We're talking to parts for billion and in some areas

816
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: and maybe a little low and selenium. You're not gonna

817
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: change that, dear, just by adding that one tracement on.

818
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: Just like if you and I talk of montivitamin every day,

819
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: but we still leave McDonald's and lay on the couch

820
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: five hours a day. We're not gonna get a whole

821
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: lot healthier just because we could the multivitament. And I

822
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: do not believe that any super energized food or we've

823
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: got these new trace minerals because we've got a memorable

824
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: as here's here's a fact. And I don't want to

825
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: state this very carefully, but remember it's always a ruthless

826
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: dang of facts that murders a beautiful theory. And the

827
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: ruthless facts are the periodic table is only so big.

828
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't get any bigger unless some scientists creates a

829
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: really super molecule gas or some lab and that has

830
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: nothing to do with dear, management and and and all

831
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: those elements on the periodic table have been studied for

832
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: quite some time now. I do not believe there's any

833
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 1: brand new super combination and those elements that are gonna

834
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: change dear management in any form or fashion. That's not

835
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: to say feed can't work. And supplemental feed has certainly

836
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: been proven in scientific stud used to raise body weights

837
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: down appropriately, raise antler size, raise the number of thoughts.

838
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: It's never been proven to do that more than just

839
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: good habitat. Can you gotta remember the world record deer,

840
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: most world record free ranging legitimate deer. We're not killed

841
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: with the supplemental feeder or killed us and most being filled. Beans,

842
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: by the way, are the ideal food for a white

843
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: tilt deer, and so as beans have increased it across

844
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: the landscape more. You're seeing bigger body rights and and

845
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: we've shown that Mississippi State has shown that other agencies

846
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: and are excuse the universities now working on that for

847
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: summertime for it. It's just really hard to beat a

848
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: soybean for a weather her reason. So no, I don't

849
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: think there is a magic tood. If there was, I'd

850
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: be buying a bunch of them pointed on my land. Yeah,

851
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: you and me both, um, so I guess a question

852
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: sort of moving on here, but I imagine I already

853
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: know your answer to this, but I want to just

854
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: double check. Uh. You know, we we've kind of confirmed

855
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: here when it comes to handling, you know, how do

856
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: we deal with the challenge of disease. It's really a

857
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: matter of monitoring your situation, understanding what's happening, and then

858
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: adjusting your harvest um to correspond with that. Um. Yeah,

859
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: And we're saying I'm gonna be careful because I think

860
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: when they're staying disease, what we're really saying here is

861
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: h D, because that's in the news and media image disease,

862
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: you know, vectored by a little midge or biding fly.

863
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: CPD is a whole different story. And when we come

864
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: to containing or hopefully, hopefully someday controlling CWD, I think

865
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: it's really simple. It's unequivalently shown now that moving dear

866
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: transporting deer's the fastest way for CDBDE to spread new

867
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: deer herds or across the America. And so this hurts

868
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: some people's feelings, h but we're talking about the number

869
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: one national wildlife resource. More kids in the white tailed

870
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 1: deered and balled eagles. This has been showing a study

871
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: after study. White kill deer is the symbol of wildlife

872
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: in America period, and it's hard for me to stomach

873
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: that we allow a few to prodress the farmers. If

874
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: you will to buy and sell beer and self seemen

875
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: at the risk and the very over tangible risk of

876
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,919
Speaker 1: destroying the most valuable natural resource, to white killed deer

877
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: we have on this continent, it's hard for me to

878
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: stomach that. So if I was deers are, and I

879
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: don't want to be deers are. If there's such a

880
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: thing as that deers are, I don't want that job

881
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: on the field biologist. That seems pretty simple to me.

882
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: I believe I'm a strong believer in private property rights,

883
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 1: and I really believe this. I don't have my property fence.

884
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: But if you want to fence your property and there's

885
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: adequate habitat, you know it's not a teenagers human pender.

886
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: You know there's there's escape cover and the right number

887
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: deer and right that I could care less if you want.

888
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: You may be live in a neighborhood where most of

889
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: the dear guy young and you and your family want

890
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: to chase some four and five year old deer. And

891
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: really the only way to do that is to protect

892
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: those dear to allow to get older. And you have

893
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: adequate escape cover, you have x hundred acres or whatever

894
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: is going on. I don't have any problem with that.

895
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't care if you do or don't. But the

896
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: deer don't care. They don't care anything about defense. But

897
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: when you touch it deer, do you collect seamen, you

898
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: inject chemicals into it. You're transporting that deer to another place.

899
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: This is no longer a wild deer. You've now domesticated

900
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: that animal, and you've taken away from every taxpayer in

901
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: this nation. It supports that wildlife resource. And and I

902
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: think it's very selfish for a hand, but relatively to

903
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: all the millions of hunters in America. For a few

904
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: thousand people to want to profit off bind settling the

905
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: moving deer, to jeopardize a resource that millions of people

906
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: enjoy and pay for, I just think it's wrong. So

907
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: I equate that little easy. I really don't care what

908
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: you do on your land as long as you don't

909
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: impact my land. There's all laws like this. My neighbors

910
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: legally can't put a nuclear dump on their land. They

911
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: can't even burn to ires on their land because it

912
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: impacts the air quality and the stream quality of my land.

913
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: Why do we allow people do stuff to deer that

914
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: has a known, now known, scientifically proven the impact on wild,

915
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: free ranging deer. Why do we let a handle of

916
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: people do that on their land. We don't let them

917
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: store nuclear waste. We don't even let them burn a tire.

918
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: To me, that's as cut and dry and as simple

919
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: as it could possibly be. Yeah. I like your perspective

920
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: a lot on that. I think it makes. It makes

921
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: all the sense in the world. I certainly see where

922
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: we're coming from. But man, that is one of those

923
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: topics that does get a lot of people fired up.

924
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: Oh someone's gonna call your boats now. Yeah. But my

925
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: mind is that if you touch dear, you know, and

926
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 1: you know, there's all kind of university of doing great

927
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: work and gratitudents and I've done it. We've got get

928
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: pistols on deer and blah blah blah blah. You're touching deer,

929
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: and you're transporting deer for so purpose a personal gain.

930
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: I think it's about as dangerous as burning tires or

931
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: having nuclear waste on your property. Yeah, I just made

932
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people mad. Well, It's an a iportant

933
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: point to make, and I've I've dabbled and share my

934
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: opinions on that too and gotten a lot of flak

935
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: for it. But I think it's something that people really

936
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: need to be thinking about. So um. So that said, though,

937
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: I want to before we run out of time here,

938
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: I want to touch on a couple of the other

939
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: popular issues that I know a lot of people are

940
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: dealing with, um and one of those is predation. And

941
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: this is one that allot of people like to talk

942
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: about and a lot of people are concerned about, and

943
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: in some cases probably rightfully. So um, two questions for

944
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: your Graham Number one, Number one, how can you tell

945
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: if predation is a challenge for your local whiteail population?

946
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: And then number two, if it is, what do you

947
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: do about it? Yep? Not I'm an easy tale. But

948
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, things, if you're dear, are so skinny as

949
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: you can barely see them. I mean, you know, you're

950
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: you're pretty good hunter, and you're kind of watching your

951
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: sin and you're doing stuff, and they're so alert you

952
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: can you just can't hardly see what you're out of

953
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: stand anymore. Then you know, and you're using pretty good

954
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: hunting techniques, and everywhere there's a crossroads on your property,

955
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: there's four piles of tiles. Scott, you probably got that

956
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: problem because kyles eat deer unequivocally that you know, young deer, fawns,

957
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: mature deer, they eat deer. That research is done Seinsfield

958
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 1: and proven. We don't need to argue over that anymore,

959
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: and so can we do something about it? It's it's

960
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: in not all areas have a problem. And there's a

961
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: recent study I think out of Wisconsin that really clearly

962
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: showed that in open farmland kyles don't have as big

963
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: an impact on deer as they do in timory country.

964
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: We looked all throughout the South, it's mainly piment country,

965
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: and the southern states are really getting hammered by kyos.

966
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: In the north Central Lake states up north are getting

967
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: hammered by wolves and kyleach. So there's areas where it's

968
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: it's certainly a problem. And for the bologists at say

969
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: and Mandards say, well, we just guys are here, We

970
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: just gotta produce our deer harvest, and this is a

971
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: new norm. We gotta accept it, I say, and I

972
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: think the data is really clear. If we look in

973
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: areas of Texas or out west in the Powder River

974
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: country in the Western States, where they raised a lot

975
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: of sheep for cattle, they it impacts your income directly.

976
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: They do a really good job promoting kyote numbers down

977
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: through trapping and other means. So again, we're talking about

978
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 1: our national resource. We're talking about something that generates billions

979
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: and billions of dollars and provides millions of ours of recreations.

980
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: If we get serious about controlling kyotes, we can limit

981
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: your numbers. I'm not talking about whipping them out. I'm

982
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: talking about bouncing predator and prey populations just and good

983
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: stewards of the resource. So, yes, trapping does work. Yes,

984
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: it is labor intendency. Yes it costs money. Yes, some

985
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: landolds are doing and some The most important thing is

986
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: that agencies allow trapping the kyotes during the fawning season

987
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: because that's when we have the biggest impact on fond survival.

988
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: What about other predators other than kyotes, because that's a

989
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: popular one, But what about black bears, um or wolves

990
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: and some of the Great Lakes States. Are those having

991
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 1: as big of an impact? Is sometimes you know, they're

992
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: they're big predators, so they get a lot of attention,

993
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: but are they really having an impact? Yeah, you know

994
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: there's studies in some areas certainly bears, I mean, I

995
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: though it's a study out of Pennsylvania, I think where

996
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: bears were retunting for about forty fawn population. Bears, you

997
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: can give them that search image can really find fawns easy. Uh,

998
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 1: here's the mine that people don't like to talk about.

999
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: How about eagles? Man, We got more eagles now and

1000
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: we've had any of our lives time by far, and

1001
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: eagles certainly are fawn predators. Orders abundant eagle populations and uh,

1002
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean eagles are great turkey preadors. An eagle can

1003
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: fly over an open field of turkeys and one of

1004
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: them is not making it out that turkey, although it's

1005
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: a great bird, is not escaping a big old bald

1006
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: eagle creis in that field. It's just not gonna happen. So, uh,

1007
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: we have more eagles, more hawks. Who hasn't driven down

1008
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: the road and saw a pile of hawks, especially winner

1009
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: on every power pole going down the road. And they've

1010
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: been protected for thirty plus years. And I'm not saying

1011
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be. But the reality is we have more eagles,

1012
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: more locks, more bears, more mountain lines in a lot

1013
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: of areas, more coyops, certainly, more wolves. We have a

1014
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: lot of predators out there, more than we've had in

1015
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: most of our lifetimes, and to say they're not an

1016
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: issue is just really be imbined to the situation. And

1017
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: so what do we do? Well, we make choices every

1018
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: day as humans of what we favor and don't favor.

1019
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: And it seems to me that in a lot of

1020
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: areas were favoring predators and ignoring the white tail population

1021
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: and other game species coil turkey, other game species. So

1022
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: I think we've got to find a balance between sudative

1023
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: preat populations that's good for mankind and instead our goals

1024
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: achieving that balance. Yeah, I think something you said that's

1025
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: really important too, And it's something that, um, I worry

1026
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: about sometimes because you know, I'm in addition to being

1027
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: a deer hunter, I'm also just a wildlife a lover

1028
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: of wilderness and wildlife and animals and nature and all

1029
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: these different things. And I think the important thing you

1030
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: said there was a balance. Um. And again this is

1031
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: just my two cents, but sometimes you start hearing people

1032
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, we have to kill every single predator,

1033
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: just strow them all because they're killing our deer herd.

1034
00:53:58,160 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: And I like the fact that you made it a

1035
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: point to say, you know, we don't need to eradicate them, um,

1036
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: but we need to find that proper balance. I think

1037
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: in my personal opinion that's the right the right way

1038
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: to due to is finding that balance. There's there's probably

1039
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: a place for for both, but finding that right balance. Yeah,

1040
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: it would be a lonely deer with for me to

1041
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: walk out and not hear a kyld howling somewhere every

1042
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: now and then a bustance stuff, that would be a

1043
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: lonely deal with for me. Or see a bobcat over

1044
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: now and then, you know, or or if I get

1045
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: to hunt in those Northern States, I worked a lot

1046
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: of by war Road Minnesota and borders of Pollo wolves

1047
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: up there, and probably a little too many, but you know,

1048
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: like we're hearing them how at night or seeing a

1049
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: big old wolf track. That's really that is part of

1050
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: that willderness experience for me. But it's just finding that balance.

1051
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: That's in all things a lot of auderation and balanced

1052
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 1: and I think that's our job as mankind is to

1053
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: help find that balance, because if we if a man

1054
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: doesn't create that balance, we didn't get these big old,

1055
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: massive swings. The preservationists people say, don't do anything and

1056
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: they're work itself out, it will work itself out. But

1057
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: those we will work it stuff out in massive swings,

1058
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: massive swings that I don't believe human society will all right, yeah, yeah,

1059
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: I think that's that's absolutely the truth. And speaking of

1060
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 1: one of these changes, um, you know, we talked about

1061
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: the at the beginning of the episode. You mentioned, you know,

1062
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: trying to set a baseline and you know that what

1063
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: the population was like, what the dear population heard was

1064
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: like before European settlement, and um, you know, now humans

1065
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: obviously have made an impact and that's changed things. One

1066
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: of the greatest impacts happening right now. It really is forever,

1067
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: ever since we've been settling North America has been habitat

1068
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: and recently, from my conversations with Kip and others, more

1069
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: and more people are bringing up the fact that or

1070
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: the belief that habitat loss is making a greater impact

1071
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 1: on some of these dear declines that we've been seeing

1072
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: than maybe you know, is being given credit for so

1073
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: grant in the case if it seems like we're losing

1074
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: white to habitat, I believe there was. I think Kip

1075
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,479
Speaker 1: Adams had mentioned the fact that we've lost a total

1076
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: third of all the CRP ground in the Midwest over

1077
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: the last four or five years. I think it was

1078
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: us UM and that's you know, tremendous white tail habitat.

1079
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: In these cases where we're losing habitat um for for deer.

1080
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: Is there anything that an individual landowner or hunter on

1081
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: public land can do to combat that at all? Is

1082
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: it just merely you know, putting more cover onto our

1083
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: pieces of ground, or what can I do if I

1084
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: if I hear that's an issue, what can I do

1085
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? You know, if you're an individual hunter

1086
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: on public ground, I think your best tool is to

1087
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: ballot box. You can vote, and you can you know,

1088
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: forward and get behind referendums that protect will of habitat

1089
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: and streamside management zones and because good habitat is always

1090
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: good for clean air and clean water and many things

1091
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: besides seeing a big old pluck out there on the

1092
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: frosty morning. So I think that's the game where US

1093
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: assistants find that balance. We all want to have cheap

1094
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: fueld and we want to have cheap food. Those are

1095
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: realities and and so there's trade offs and there's balances

1096
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: and where do we find that balance? And finding that

1097
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: balance is very difficult. But you know, a loss of

1098
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: of CRP land certainly has a huge impact on game

1099
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: and non game species. But it's an individual landowner and

1100
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: he's saying, man, I got a chance to make some

1101
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: money and pay my land here at corn prices they're

1102
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: not high now, but they were high, and I can

1103
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's more profitable for me to

1104
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: a corn and have CRP. Who's complain that landowner for

1105
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: making that choice. So these are trade offs and and

1106
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: there is not an easy It's easier for me to

1107
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: solve you know, wolves and kidos and other things than

1108
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: is that one. Because I do work for some those people.

1109
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: And you know, you're a guy, and you're you you

1110
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: had land and CRP and you're making you know, where

1111
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: you are sixty seventy dred twenty dollars an acre form

1112
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: CRP payment. All a sudden corn jumps at the ten

1113
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: dollars an acre and even though it's marginal land. You

1114
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: can make more than that hundred dollars preak or profit.

1115
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: You got two kids wanting to go to college. You're

1116
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: trying to pay it for a new john to your combine.

1117
00:57:57,760 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do? You're gonna take that land

1118
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: out of CRP and go corn. So that is a

1119
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: very very complicated question of which I don't have an

1120
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: answer except that as a nation, not as an individual

1121
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: has a nation in the ballot box, we need to

1122
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: come and decide you unitedly and hopefully come to a

1123
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: decision which doesn't have a lot anymore in our democracy.

1124
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: What our values are? What what is? What are we

1125
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: willing to pay for gas? What are we willing to

1126
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: pay for corn? And what are those trade offfs that

1127
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: allow us to maintain while I've had a tap and

1128
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: a very healthy productive society. And those are tough questions.

1129
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: Those are as windmills, Boy, there's a you know, it's

1130
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: a clean source of fuel that destroys some land, destroy

1131
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: some habitat, and sure knocks a lot of birds out there.

1132
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: You know what, what's the right answer there? First you

1133
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: we get windmills going, by, guys, that's a great solution

1134
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: to our energy crisis, and if you're a guy walking

1135
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: blow and picking up a few eagles, you're going on,

1136
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a good or not.

1137
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: So you know, we we don't have to make two tradeoffs,

1138
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: and that one is not easy when to answer, Yeah,

1139
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: that's a that's a that's a tough call. Absolutely. Yeah,

1140
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: well we are. We are coming up pretty closely here

1141
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: on time. But Dan, do you have any final questions

1142
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: for granting here before we let them go? Yeah? I

1143
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 1: have a question about big Bucks. Okay, every you know,

1144
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: if I'm a landowner, um for for me personally, I'm

1145
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: buying that land to manage it to hold Big Bucks.

1146
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 1: And so I've managed my property. I have the cover,

1147
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: I have the food, I have everything that is needed

1148
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: from a from a scientific standpoint. Is there a way

1149
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: to improve genetics or um do something management wise that

1150
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: will increase antler size? Okay, so first thing I'm always

1151
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: gonna look at. I'm gonna be quick here scoep tub

1152
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: and water. And I think what you're really saying is

1153
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: you want to kill a big buck. Because I have

1154
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: done all that killing the big book. You've done all that,

1155
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: But if you haven't told me is what the neighbors have.

1156
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: There needs to be a reason for that mature deer

1157
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: to be on near land versus the neighbors land itself selfish,

1158
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: but that is a reality. So if you've got soybeans

1159
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: or neighbors got soy beans, that's even. If you've got water,

1160
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: necks got water, that's even. What do you have this

1161
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: better than the neighbors out of one oh three? And

1162
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: I always want to air on the cover side because

1163
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: that's where deer has been, specially from sure dear, it's

1164
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: been most of the daylight hours. It's not sexy to

1165
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: talk about, but I'm always gonna air on having the

1166
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: best cover in the neighborhood if i can either sanctuary, less,

1167
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: signing pressure or whatever it is. Second part of your

1168
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: question is no way. This has been proven by great

1169
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: scientific research. You're not going to change the genetics of

1170
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: a wild, pre ranging deer while your trigger finger, you're

1171
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: not gonna do it. Old red structure. You can accomplish,

1172
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: better food, you can accomplish. The only way we're gonna

1173
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: change genetics with any meaningful result is by line breeding

1174
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: or having a pedigree, knowing who breads for several generations

1175
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: and the results of that crossing under offspring and calling

1176
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: the ones that we don't like, keeping the ones we do.

1177
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: I said, only with the pettigree, because just calling, Oh

1178
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: my guys, here's a four point buck. I'm not shoot him.

1179
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: You have no idea. That's just pheno type. But his

1180
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: geno type may be totally different due to an injury

1181
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: or got born, laid or whatever happens. So a little

1182
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: quickly here, but no, I never ever ever give me

1183
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: clearly never been calling has a way to improve genetics

1184
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 1: and a wild Cranian deer. It cannot be done or

1185
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: it's not likely to be done again unless there's a pettingree.

1186
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: So you'd gown these monster deer in pens because they

1187
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: know who's bet who for several generations and the results

1188
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: of those crossings. And there's some real famous cases where

1189
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: you know, the hundred forty and shade pointer is still

1190
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: in two offspring year after year after year, with all

1191
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: the most properties. You've been cold as a cold buck.

1192
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: So I fell really easy on my land. If it's

1193
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: four years old, it's a cold deer. I try to

1194
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: shoot it. If it's not four years old, I don't

1195
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:03,439
Speaker 1: hear what if stores lives I like something you said.

1196
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: They're um and kind of going off topic here really quickly. Um,

1197
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: but you mentioned you're looking at age and that's determined

1198
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: whether you shoot or not with these different things happening

1199
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 1: in the white tailed world right now, is that the

1200
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: criteria that you would recommend most hunters use rather than

1201
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 1: antler size or things, uh, anything like that when it

1202
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: comes to making har decisions. Absolutely. You know, if you're

1203
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: a landowner near savvy enough the home land and new stocks,

1204
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: you can get pretty good at estimating age of a

1205
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: buck on the fifth and so age will always give

1206
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: you better long term results. And you know, circumference or

1207
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: antler spread or number points on the side, what happens

1208
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: with any of those measurements is that you end up

1209
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: high grating over time because your best two year old bucks,

1210
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 1: a three year od buck or earling buck, whatever your

1211
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: criteria is gonna you know, if you've got a three

1212
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: point on the side rule, your best earing bucks, a're

1213
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: gonna have four or five points on side, and you

1214
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: keep shooting the best year after year after year. We

1215
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: gotta remember that those here the book most part of

1216
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: the genetic pool of antlers, and we're not selecting them

1217
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: on those but those bucks aren't. It's not that you're

1218
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: changing the genetics, but you're allowing the bucks for less

1219
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: inherent potential standing there to eat the food and go on.

1220
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: It's not breeding, it's just the mature in too deer

1221
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: that dorn Off to as good to start and lot

1222
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: to start with. You want that deer that exceeded the

1223
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: criteria but was still the same age to live because

1224
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: it's showing the potential to be better. Doesn't mean as

1225
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: jeans are gonna be better, but that individual deer is

1226
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: going to be better. And that's why we manage individual deer. Yeah,

1227
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: you want to give them that chance to to reach

1228
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: that potential. Well, you want them to express their potential.

1229
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. So we've taken a lot of time out

1230
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: of your day, Grant. So I want to wrap things

1231
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: up here. Um, but one last question to kind of

1232
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: put a bowl on this. You we start a conversation,

1233
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: Grant with you mentioned the fact that we've gone from

1234
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: maybe a time of really great, a great period of

1235
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: time for white tails and white tail hunters in America

1236
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: to maybe a slightly different in time. So, um, it

1237
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: seems like you know from people I've talked to we're

1238
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: we're entering a slightly new normal. So in this slightly

1239
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 1: new era of deer hunting, what is the one big

1240
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: takeaway message that you hope that deer hunters can kind

1241
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: of wrap their heads around moving forward giving these changes,

1242
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: Every deer hunter, every deer hunter public land, private land,

1243
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: is a deer manager. When you pull that trigger, you've

1244
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: made a management decision. Did you improve the deer heard

1245
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: quality or did you decrease the deer quality? With got

1246
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: that recognition that every hunters a manager, not to state

1247
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: agencies there, they're teachers, are educators, they give us guidelines,

1248
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: they hold the public trust, they collect data, But the

1249
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: guy pull on the trigger determines the future of that

1250
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: peer heard. Maybe you need to pass up deer because

1251
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: you've had bad disease, you've got a lot of predators,

1252
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: or what the issue is, or maybe you're in an

1253
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 1: area that needs to harvest a lot of those and

1254
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: reduced that number of deer based on the amount of

1255
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: food out there. But the realization that we can't be

1256
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: in consumers simply deer hunters, and then we all have

1257
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: to carry a little bit of the management burden by

1258
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: making the choices we make is the key that will

1259
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: help us have great hunting into the future. That's awesome, Grant.

1260
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 1: I think that is a perfect way to wrap all

1261
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: of this up. So for people listening today that want

1262
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 1: to learn more about what you're doing and learn more

1263
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: from you, um, where should they go online? Just sending

1264
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: a little our website, Growing Dear dot TV, Growing Dear

1265
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: dot PV. And we're making new showing a week and

1266
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: all past five some odd shows too, and fifty show.

1267
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 1: Excuse me, you're on there five years of running and

1268
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: so you can search on you know, food Pots or

1269
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 1: Predators or whatever and find a couple of shows that

1270
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: fit that title. And hopefully we can just share information.

1271
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: It's reading no charge, just like March stuff here and

1272
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: just hopefully you can learn something. Hopefully we can share

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01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: something meaningful. Absolutely well, I can uh. I can definitely

1274
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: say from my experiences, Grant that your resource is a

1275
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: tremendous one and I've certainly learned a lot from Growing

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01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: Dear TV. So for everyone listening, highly recommend checking that out.

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01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: So Grant, thank you so much for joining us here today.

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01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: This has been terrific. Mark, thanks forty Dan, thank you

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01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: for your time. Thank you all right, have a great night, Grant.

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01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks guys. All right, well, I hope you're

1281
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: taking notes there, because Grant really shared a tremendous amount

1282
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: of insight and I hope you enjoyed that as much

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01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: as I did. Now, closing things out here, if you

1284
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 1: have been joining the podcast, it was we always ask

1285
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: it would be awesome if you could leave us a

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01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: rating or of you on iTunes, and I want to

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01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: give a big thank you to the one hundred and

1288
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: ninety three of you who have already done so. And

1289
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: I thought i'd read off one of those reviews here too.

1290
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: This comes from the iTunes user known as rude Like,

1291
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: and they write Mark and Dan have one of the

1292
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: best podcasts available. I enjoy listening to them so much

1293
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: that when I started, I was able to pull off

1294
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 1: six episodes a night at work. However, now I'm caught

1295
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 1: up and I find myself longing for more. These guys

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01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: are real people, dedicated to their lifestyle and hobby. My

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01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: only complaint is that they don't do to our shows.

1298
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: Thanks Mark and Dan for the hours of awesome. All right, Well,

1299
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 1: thank you, rude Like, but be careful for what you

1300
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 1: ask for, because we are getting ever closer to those

1301
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: two hour long shows, and uh that might end up

1302
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: happening if we keep trending in this direction. Now, in

1303
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: addition to raigings and reviews, if you haven't already done so,

1304
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe to the Wire Done podcast on

1305
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 1: iTunes with the Apple podcast app or the Stitcher app,

1306
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you go to get your podcasts. You want

1307
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 1: to make sure you do that so you can get

1308
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: all future episodes downloaded right to your phone or tablet

1309
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: every week. Also, we'd like to thank our partners who

1310
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: helped make this show possible, so big thank you too,

1311
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: sick A Gear Trophy, Ridge Bear Archery, Red Nick Blinds,

1312
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: Carbon Express, Arrows, Hunt Soft, Lacrosse, Boots, Big and J

1313
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: Longrange Attractants, and the White Tail Institute of North America.

1314
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: And finally, and most importantly, thank you to all of

1315
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: you listening today. I hope today's show has inspired you

1316
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: to take up more responsibility as a deer hunter and

1317
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: manager and has empowered you with acknowledge to do so.

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01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: And finally, of course, I hope you'll stay wired