1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio My guest Today is a journalist 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: and staff writer at the Atlantic, where she covers the 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: weekly Planet newsletter. Her work has previously appeared in major 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: outlets such as Newsweek, Courts, Wired, The New York Times, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: The Nation, Time Magazine, and NPR. Zoe Schlanger is also 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: the author of the twenty twenty four book The Light Eaters, 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: How the unseen world of plant intelligence offers a new 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: understanding of life on Earth. In twenty seventeen, Schlanger received 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: the National Association of Science Writer's Reporting Award. She's also 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: been recognized as a finalist for several other major journalism awards, 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: with a focus on climate change, pollution, and environmental justice 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: in her life writing, I was curious about win Schlanger's 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: environmental awareness and interest began. 15 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: I grew up in Connecticut, not very far away from 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: where we are now in Manhattan, and I grew up 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: with New Yorker parents, so I was coming into the 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: city all the time. And I think my earliest environmental 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: awareness came from driving in alongside the Hudson River and 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: learning at some point that the Hudson River was contaminated 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: with PCBs ge right exactly, and was declared a super 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: fund site, and that clicked something in my child brain thought, 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: I can't see that that's kind of a secret. Not 24 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: many people maybe know it, but maybe everyone should considering 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 2: the implications. So that's probably my earliest recollection of interest 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: in these things. But I also came of age professionally. 27 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: I got my first journalism job in the midst of 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: the BP oil spill and became entranced with this idea 29 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: that the very substance were using to clean up the 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: oil turned out to be a massive health hazard, corrects it, 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: which was being sprayed to disperse the oil in the goulsperson. 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, though, So you had this enlightened kind 33 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: of advanced awareness of environmental those serious environmental issues when 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: you were very young. Yeah. 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: I think I was always drawn to this idea of 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: there being kind of secrets out in the world, and 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: that's why journalism was interesting to me, that this was 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: the sort of horizontal transfer of information from these you know, 39 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: quote unquote secret sources like academics or people working in 40 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: the Ivory Tower to uncover these environmental disasters and the public. 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: So journalism is the conduit between those two things, and 42 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: it was very appealing to me to like ferret out those. 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: And you wanted to study journalism, I did you know? 44 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: I went to NYU for journalism, but I left the 45 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 2: journalism department within a semester because they started talking about 46 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: the internet after finals, and I thought, the world I'm 47 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: going into is the world of online journalism. And I 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: did a lot of internships. Instead of having a journalism. 49 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: Degree, where did you get your degree? 50 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: In environmental studies and urban studies and a sort of 51 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: mishmash of things I thought were interesting. They let you 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: build your own major there if you want to, which 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: has varying degrees of efficacy, right exactly. I appreciated the flexibility. 54 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: And I just worked in newsrooms from undergrad. 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: What's the first newsroom you worked in and what was 56 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: that like? How old were you? 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: I was eighteen years old. I was a freshman, and 58 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: I was working at Gothamist, which is the wonderful New 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: York metro area reporting outfit, and I was sent out 60 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: to cover things like the protest against the bike lanes 61 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: in around Prospect Park, and that was very fun to 62 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: me and then I interned at The Nation magazine, which 63 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: was a great political education, and they teach you to 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: fact check there, the interns fact check the entire magazine. 65 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: And so you're essentially re reporting these incredible journalists' stories. 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: You're calling their sources back, You're learning how they put 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: it together, you're learning the context that they decided to 68 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: place the stent. And it was an incredible crash course 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: and how to do rigorous journalism. 70 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: So you worked for the Nation, how long were you there. 71 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: For, oh, you know, summer? 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: What did you take away from that? Like, just all 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: of it served to wet your appetite more and more 74 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: to keep going in that direction. 75 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: Of Absolutely, I think I was checking pieces and studying 76 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: at the time the issue of mind tailings in places 77 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: like West Virginia and the legacy of coal mining. And 78 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: they had a fantastic reporter there. Absolutely, just issue after issue. 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: Actually at during the time I was at the Nation, 80 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: around the time of the Kalamazoo oil spill in Michigan 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: where all of this tarcans diluted bitchmen from Canada was 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: being piped through Kalamazoo and pipe burst and this was 83 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: a type of heavy crude oil that we really hadn't 84 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: had to deal with in a cleanup context. It turned 85 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: out to be incredibly difficult to clean up and also 86 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: contained all these other compounds like benzene that were carcinogenic 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 2: in ways that. 88 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: Used in that Tarsans process. Exactly was it coming down 89 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: from Alberta? I believe? Oh yeah, yeah, for you, this 90 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: goes on to become your profession. Yeah, I mean you. 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: So when you finish college with your other degrees, your 92 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: non journalism degrees, where do you go. 93 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: I started out My first job was at Talking Points Memo, 94 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: and that job was basically rearranging the homepage and writing headlines, 95 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: which is a classic first job in journalism. But like 96 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: I said, it was right around the time of the 97 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: BP oil spill, and I sort of insisted and they 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: were very open to me writing some stories. So that 99 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: was the first time I got into actual environmental journalism. 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: From there, just got deeper and deeper. And there's this 101 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: funny thing in journalism in newsrooms, in generalist newsrooms, if 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: you know how to read a scientific paper, people act 103 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: like that's some magical power, and you become more and 104 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: more specialized and you're given more and more responsibility in 105 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: that era. So I'm grateful that I could. 106 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: So every morning you wake up and have breakfast over 107 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: some scientific, dating exact environmental. 108 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: Journeys and still do. It's the best job in the world. 109 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: Well, BP is twenty ten, and it's still at a 110 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: time for me when i'm you know, pretty it's fifteen 111 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: years ago, obviously, and so I'm still raging about these 112 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: kinds of things, even privately, and I become that guy 113 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: which I had been before that maybe laps where I 114 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: don't get gas at a BP ever again. Never I 115 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: don't go to Exxon Mobile anymore. Ever since Exxon Valdiez 116 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: and then BP, I never want to buy their gas again. 117 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: And what difference is mes you know, as one customer, 118 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: but you know, launching a broader campaign boycott Exxon, boycott BP. 119 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: That's tough to pull off because people view gas. They 120 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: view gas separately, do you agree from oil? Well, they 121 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: view gases like they've got me, what am I going 122 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: to do? They just yes, it's true. 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: And that's the product of decades of intentional directionings exact 124 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: why we don't have electric cars absolutely, And now the 125 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: situation the golf is everyone's pivoting to LNG to liquefy 126 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: natural gas, and it's a whole new, intensive, very extractive 127 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: energy project happening in the now. And I went down 128 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: there recently to do a story about this exporting natural 129 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: gas project in an area where it was all fishermen 130 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: who talked to me about being in their fishing boats 131 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: while they were spraying correct sit onto the you know, 132 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: being sprayed directly by the stuff back in twenty ten. 133 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: So these are cyclical Gulf environmental devastations and they're continuing now. 134 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: The thing that ignited me to want to look into 135 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: your career and your writing was nine to eleven. Thirteen 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: million square feet of real estate at the World Trade 137 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: Center gets pulverized into ash, toxic ash within a matter 138 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: of hours. You divide that by four thousand, meaning let's 139 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,559 Speaker 1: say a house, an average house or even a decent 140 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: sized US is four thousand square feet or more. Obviously 141 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: in the Palisades or we're pivoting to the Palisades here 142 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: via nine to eleven, So that's three thousand, two hundred 143 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: and fifty houses. The Trade Center represents three two hundred 144 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: and fifty homes at four thousand square feet per home. 145 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: That all gets pulverized and then it rains and all 146 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: that toxic sludge, which in California they're racing to get 147 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: the toxicity out of there and to remediate that. First 148 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: the idea being is what are they going to do? 149 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: Are they going to try to go back and rebuild it? 150 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: You can't rebuild the way it was because it was 151 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: like a Disneyland set. Well, when I think of southern California, 152 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: I think of an intricate webbing of natural plant life. 153 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: And that's the wonder of it in many ways. 154 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: And now that's all gone, that's all gone, and so 155 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: knowing that it's gone and you can never get that back, 156 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: you have to impress upon people from decades and decades 157 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: or centuries of growth of the wildlife there, knowing you 158 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: could never get it back, what do we do? Do 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: you have any ideas about that? 160 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: Well, you brought up this idea of managed retreat, this 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: idea that the state or whomever should pay folks not 162 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: to be there anymore and turn part of the acreage 163 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: into park, and that would of course remove some people 164 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: from the WUI area the wild land urban interface. But 165 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: that's a very controversial concept and it touches at the 166 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: heart of sort of all these emotional attachments to this area. 167 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: I mean, what's amazing about California is that there's no 168 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: place with a better firefighting service, that have the most 169 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: amazing technology for firefighting. They are the best prepared. They 170 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: have tried to pass a law to make sure people 171 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: don't put any foliage within five feet of their house 172 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: Paradise exactly. 173 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: You saw Lucy Walker's film Gate not but I've. 174 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: Heard a lot about it. So this five foot of 175 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: space marker is supposed to be scientifically proven to keep 176 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: your house from catching fire, or at least prevent these 177 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: conflagrations where like a thousand houses can catch on fire, 178 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: but no one wants to do it. There's whole towns 179 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 2: that have shot down ordinances like this. 180 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,359 Speaker 1: In the movie. In Lucy's film, they hire a consultant. 181 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: He comes and lays out the five steps. He thinks 182 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: you should take all of the very simple and they're like, no, no, 183 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: that's one of them. Keep the vegetation five feet from 184 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: the house. No wooden roofs. No, they say, no, yeah, 185 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: right back to what they had. 186 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: I spoke to a former fire chief while the Palisades 187 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: were burning in northern California, near Berkeley, in a town 188 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: near Berkeley. He had retired two weeks before because his 189 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: town refused to pass the five foot ordinance and he 190 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: didn't want to be responsible for what would happen when 191 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: that town inheavit CA. Yeah, exactly. So it's a matter 192 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: of reassessing the way that like living in California looks 193 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: and feels, the aesthetic of it, and fully accepting that 194 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: there's a measure of danger to living these places, which 195 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: will be all heightened by the fact that no one 196 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: can get insurance, or if you're getting insurance, it's incredibly expensive, 197 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: which should start to kind of correct for these decades 198 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: of under valuing the risk to these areas. 199 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody wants ocean front, live by the water, 200 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: and you realize, you know what happens when there's a 201 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: three mile island and you tell people they got to 202 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: get aut or Chernobyl or whatever like that, there's something 203 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: like Beau Paul. There's a super level of toxicity and 204 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: people can't live there anymore. Well, this is not a 205 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: super level of toxicity, but it's a super level of 206 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: pazard for a community. 207 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: I think the thing that this teaches us, though, as well, 208 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: is that there is actually no place safe from the 209 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: ravages of climate change. This was a particularly extreme example, 210 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: and the fire risk to some of these communities is 211 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: higher than elsewhere, but the fire risk and large swaths 212 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: of California is similar. And if you're going to build 213 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: a new community, it's likely going to be in that 214 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: WUY zone, that wildland urban interface. So yes, certainly getting 215 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: people encouraging them to move elsewhere, but there is a 216 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: reality of these fires becoming less and less fightable all 217 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: over the place. I mean, talking to fire chiefs during 218 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: these fires, they were very clear that the physics of 219 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: this fire meant that no amount of fire response could 220 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: have prevented what happened. The only way to do anything 221 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: to mitigate these kinds of fires is this advanced preparation, 222 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: these hardening of homes, this changing of what the landscape 223 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: looks like. 224 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: Change. 225 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can have a beautiful garden that's made 226 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: of rocks and cacti and a gave, but you just 227 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: can't have rose bushes, you can't have palm trees. It 228 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: will take a mass cultural shift, and it's so unclear 229 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 2: to me what will cause that, like when will it 230 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: be bad enough that people would be willing to do that. 231 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: There's this kind of wiping of the cultural memory each 232 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: time this happens. And there was a time when, you know, 233 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: in the Great Chicago Fire, the San Francisco fire, there's 234 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 2: a time when we lived with urban fire in a 235 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: way that was more top of mind to people. But 236 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: it's been so long, take a big shift. 237 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: Now, you eventually you can describe this. For me, got 238 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: to the point where you were a bit overwhelmed by 239 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: all of your environmental reporting. Correct? 240 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: Correct? 241 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: Can you describe the period when that really hits you. 242 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was working at a different newsroom than I 243 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: work at now, and i'd been covering climate change for 244 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: about seven eight years at that point, and as you 245 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 2: know very well, it's an incredibly devastating thing to face 246 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: every day, and I had this experience of becoming quite 247 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: numb to it. I think I was covering the potential 248 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: for an ice sheet to fully collapse and thinking through 249 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: scientists projections of that and what it would mean, this 250 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: catastrophic sea level rise, and I registered this sense of 251 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: feeling nothing in regards to it, just sort of numbing, 252 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: and I didn't like that. I think the second way 253 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 2: detach the emotional quality of all this devastation from the 254 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: reality of it, there's nothing to hope for. So I 255 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: started combing through botany journals. Plants have always brought me 256 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: some measure of peace, and I stumbled upon what turned 257 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: out to be a massive controversy in the botanical space, 258 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: where botanists were fighting with each other about whether or 259 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 2: not we could consider plants intelligent or possibly conscious, based 260 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: on behaviors that scientists were uncovering around communication, around memory, 261 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: kin recognition, manipulation of plants, of insects on the part 262 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: of plants. All these very plastic, spontaneous, quite cunning responses 263 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: plants had to their world that very clearly showed them 264 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: as active agents rather than these kind of passive, immobile 265 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: items as we typically consider them. So I realized that 266 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: was an incredibly alluring story, back to this idea of 267 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: like secrets that exist within the confines. Absolutely, and this 268 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: I did feel like it was changing my conception of 269 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: plant life. So I spent four years talking to botanists 270 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: and it totally revolutionized my thinking about the natural. 271 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: You never had any interest in that subject of botany 272 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: in a generalis sens before. 273 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: Well, I was obsessed with ferns. Ferns are amazing. Between 274 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: two f there you go and I that kind of 275 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: spiraled out into a larger interest in But no, it's 276 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: the beauty of being a journalists. You get to fixate 277 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: on new topics all the time and call scientists up 278 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: and the greatest scientists in their field will give you 279 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: time and give you a personal masterclass on their field 280 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: and turning that attention towards botanists. They are some of 281 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: the most fascinating scientists and enthusiastic scientists in the world. 282 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: Is there someone I'm sure there's many, but is there 283 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: someone you want to recognize? 284 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a botanist ecologist named Richard Carbon at UC Davis, 285 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: and he is a pioneer in the world of plant communication. 286 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: He studies sagebrush so California, of course, Northern California full 287 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: of sagebrush and it has that camphorus unctious smell And 288 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: what you're smelling is one small portion of the many, 289 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: many chemical compounds that sagebrush releases into the air. And 290 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: he was responsible for discovering the ways that those contain information, 291 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: the way that sagebrush signal to nearby plants about danger 292 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: in the area and how they will signal differently to 293 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: their biological kin than to strangers. Plants that they can 294 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: have even regional dialects of these chemical languages. Graphically isolated 295 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: sagebrush will have dialects much like human dialects of how 296 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: they create these compounds in their bodies. And his work 297 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: is absolutely fascinating. That's the other thing about this is 298 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: you spend so much time thinking about the devastation of 299 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: the natural world. What about the wonder and awe of 300 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: the natural world? I think this process of learning about plants. Yes, 301 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: this was about how we define intelligence, how we defined consciousness, 302 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: but it was more about for me the incredible perfusion 303 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: of biological creativity out there, this idea that we are 304 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: all products of wild evolutionary exuberance, and plants are some 305 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: of the most bizarre versions of that. But it really 306 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: situated me back into this kind of humble or more 307 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: humble space of recognizing how we are. Each each species 308 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: is like the end node of millions of years of 309 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: absolutely why evolution, and to sort of snuff out any 310 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: little node is becomes a much bigger ethical crime. So 311 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: it was really good for actually connecting me back to 312 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: the really tangible stakes of what we stand to lose 313 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 2: with climate change, particularly loss of plant species, but loss 314 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: of anything. 315 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: Writer and journalist Zoe Schlanger. If you enjoy conversations about 316 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: the environment and the role big cities like New York 317 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: play and reducing waste, check out my episode with Pam Lardo, 318 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: the former Deputy Commissioner of New York City's Department of 319 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection and New York City's first recyclings are Ron Gonan. 320 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 3: This is the fascinating world of biology. We use a 321 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 3: community of bacteria that actually digests the suspended organic material 322 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 3: and clean the water via that method, and from there 323 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 3: it goes to another settling tank where we settle out 324 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: the biomass that just can assumed all this organic matter. 325 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 3: But the water that comes out of the final settling 326 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 3: tank gets disinfection, basically household bleached to take any particular 327 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: pathogens out, and that gets either discharged to receiving waters 328 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: or in some cases in some cities, they're able to 329 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 3: polish a little bit more easy for irrigation purposes. 330 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Pammy Lardo and 331 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: Ron Gonan, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After 332 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: the break, Zoe Schlanger talks about how a typical home 333 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: can be extremely flammable and the unseen dangers of synthetic furniture. 334 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the thing. 335 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: Zoe Schlanger's recent article for The Atlantic, titled what Happens 336 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: When a Plastic City Burns examines the aftermath of the 337 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: disastrous two thousand twenty five wildfires in Los Angeles County. 338 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: The environmental impact of an urban fire on the city 339 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: of LA calls to mind the aftermath of nine to 340 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: eleven in New York City. I was curious why Schlanger 341 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: felt compelled to write about the Los Angeles fires as 342 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: a New Yorker. 343 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: This was the story of our time. What happened in 344 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: LA is something that we are facing in our next 345 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: twenty years. There will be many more fires like this, 346 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: that's all but guaranteed. And this idea of urban fire 347 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: coming back to the US is incredibly important to focus 348 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: on because it's different firefighting and different hazards than wildland fires. 349 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: Wildland fires produce lots of toxic compounds, but urban fires 350 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: produce many, many more, and many more noxious ones. Ones 351 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: We don't fully understand. Even so as someone who thinks 352 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: about environmental contamination, I go through great pains, Like I 353 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: bought a couch a few months ago, and it took 354 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: incredible amounts of research to find a couch that was 355 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: free of perfluorinated chemicals p fast those forever chemicals, to 356 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: find a couch without polyurethane foam blocks as the upholstery. 357 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: And then I started thinking about this, and there's quotes 358 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: from fire chiefs going back years saying things like a 359 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 2: couch is basically a block of gasoline. Yeah, this retired 360 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: Maryland Fower chief exactly because what is polyurethane foam, which 361 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 2: is in all our furniture. It's a polymer, it's gas, 362 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: it's oil, it's petroleum. And that's the same with everything. 363 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: Thinking about what happens in a modern house fire different 364 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: from let's say the Great Chicago Fire, is you have 365 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: a house clad in vinyl siding. It's got vinyl plank flooring, 366 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: PBC pipes, the curtains are polyester, the mattress is just 367 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: a block of gasoline. Every component of that house is 368 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: flammable in a new way, and they light so much faster. 369 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: There was a wonderful. This nonprofit on fire safety did 370 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: this demonstration on videos on YouTube, very compelling watching, where 371 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: they built two home a living room sets exactly the 372 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: same size, with the same number of items, but one 373 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 2: was mostly natural materials and one was synthetic, which is 374 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: much a much more common setup. So they had this, 375 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: you know, synthetic couch, engineered wood furniture. You know, that's 376 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: like everything that you might get at a department store. 377 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: The glues holding the engineered bits of wood together is polymer. 378 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: You know. 379 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: They had like a curtain made of polyester in the 380 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 2: other room, cotton curtain, cotton stuffed pillows on the couch, 381 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 2: wooden frame, couch, et cetera. What happened in when they 382 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 2: lit in an identical fire was that the room full 383 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: of natural materials lit very easily, but the flame sort 384 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 2: of stayed in place for a while. It took about 385 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: twenty six minutes for that room to reach flashover, which 386 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: is the point in which everything's ignited and escape is impossible. 387 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 2: So it's very important from a firefighting perspective and a 388 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: life saving perspective. In the synthetic room, the fire started 389 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: as a smolder produced much more noxious black smoke much faster, 390 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: and flashover happened in under five minutes. So if you're 391 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 2: in that home, if you're asleep, the chance of escape 392 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: goes down, which is also why we've seen the rate 393 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: of deaths and home fires go up. There's fewer home 394 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: fires now than there were in the eighties, but there's 395 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: something like thirty percent maybe little more thirty four percent 396 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 2: more deaths when it does occur. And that's you know, 397 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 2: you can really ask any fire chief that has everything 398 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: to do with these polymer materials, these plastics, and our 399 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: bucket of gasoline precisely. And I think people don't always 400 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: connect this fact that plastic plastic is an oil product. 401 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 2: It's a petroleum product, and when we think about the 402 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: flammability of petroleum, that applies to all of our plastic items. 403 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: Just this morning, I picked a sample to recover a 404 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: couch in my kid's playroom, which, of course, with all 405 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: my kids, that cover is ruined by grape juice and 406 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: everything's all over the place. But anyway, I'm getting the 407 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: couch cover, and she drops off the materials, the woman 408 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: who are going to do the work for us, and 409 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm going through them, and I see one and it 410 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: says hemp, and in my haste a mistake that it's 411 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: made out of hemp, but you know, the pattern is 412 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: called hemp. It's a pattern made to look like hemp. 413 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: And then when she went and got the details from me, 414 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: it's aid forty percent poly So we had to throw that. 415 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: That was my first choice decoratively speaking. 416 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting about things like picking couch covers. 417 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: We've just discussed how fast polyesters ignite. Fine, but if 418 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: you see a couch material or any material that says 419 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: it's performance, a performance fabric that's scuff resistant, stain resistant, 420 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: that's all then coded in clothing p fasts This forever chemical, 421 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: the teflon toxin that people may have heard about. So 422 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: you have a base of woven plastic covered in a 423 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: lacker of a compound that's associated with many cancers and 424 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: potentially neurotoxic, and the combination you light that on fire, 425 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: you create many many other compounds in the burning process, 426 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: some of which we don't fully understand, but none of 427 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: which are going to be good for us. 428 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: My wife and have gotten better, and I think we're 429 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: pretty good actually in terms of avoiding clothes for our 430 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: children that are heavy heavy polyester and plastic based, you know, 431 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: petroleum based products. And the same with our home. We 432 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: have a house on Long Island and the kids are 433 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: in and out of the house all day long. You know, 434 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: they run out to the pool, they run here, they 435 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: do this. We have a big piece of property. And 436 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: then in the city they're inside and they're inside for months, 437 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: and they go to their play space, they go to 438 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: their soccer classes, they're inside buildings. And you're thinking, I mean, 439 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm told that like certain fabrics you wear, the stuff 440 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: like little microscopic flexs of it are coming off of plastic. 441 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: When these couches you have deteriorates slowly flex of they're 442 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: sprayed with some kind of that little little pieces of 443 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: little microchar it's of plastic. Or with these in the 444 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: air just you sit down on it. Yeah, they go 445 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: into the air. So another thing for me to worry about. 446 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 2: You know, it can be endless and overwhelming, and then 447 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: you have to think about plants for a few years. 448 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: Where are you working now? Can you say? 449 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: I work at the Atlantic magazine? 450 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: So you're on the staff of the Atlantic. 451 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: I am, yes, I cover climate. 452 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: There and they so that's your Bailey. 453 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: Wick I'm the only climate reporter at the Atlantic currently. 454 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: Really, and you never have any issues with them in 455 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: terms of me. And I'm not going to assume the 456 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: Atlantic is exempt from this, which is you don't ever 457 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: have any editorial blowback about things you want to do. 458 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: They don't care. You can do whatever you want to do. 459 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: They are staunch defenders of fact based journalism. So as 460 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: long as I can back it up with fact and 461 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: our fact checkers don't think it's there's anything wrong with it, 462 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: it gets published. 463 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: Do you think that the Atlantic, because obviously the New 464 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: Yorker would fit into this category. And I think the Times, 465 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: which was in I was told almost twenty years ago 466 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: they were in grave danger. There was some rumor that 467 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: they were going to be sold. So The Times comes 468 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: out in the digital agents and they work it out. 469 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: They're in good shape now. They got a lot of 470 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: online subscribers. And I'm assuming the same as Sue for 471 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: The Atlantic. Correct like these magazines that have survived, I 472 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: viewed The Atlantic as a survivor. Oh, certainly, And then 473 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: what do they attribute that to? 474 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: You know what? The subscriptions to our print magazine are 475 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: going up right now. It's a rare case of that, 476 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 2: I think happening. The Atlantic just became profitable just in 477 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: the last few months after you know, that's unusual from 478 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: a media company now, and we went from at one 479 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: point having to cut down to eleven print issues a 480 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: year to going back up to twelve just recently. So 481 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: print is not dead from our perspective, and I feel 482 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: very lucky to be at one of the rare places 483 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: where that's the case. 484 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: May I ask, what are you working on next? 485 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: Right now, I'm working on covering the Trump transition from 486 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: an environmental perspective, thinking through all the various ways that 487 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: environmental work is being halted, and that applies to absolutely everything. 488 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: I mean, including the nine to eleven Fund or the 489 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: many people who developed cancers after nine to eleven. There 490 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: was the news just this week that the White House 491 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 2: was pulling back funding from that. They've now been so 492 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: sort of shamed into putting it back. But it's a 493 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: lot of moving parts, and we're losing the enforcement mechanisms 494 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: that keep our environmental laws working properly, and that will 495 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 2: surely have a lot of interesting impacts. 496 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say that because first stumbling upon 497 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: your writing as a result of this plastics thing and 498 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: the toxicity from these fires, And the same thing I 499 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: noticed about your words now, is this idea of enforcement 500 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: the United States. In my work I've done environmentally and 501 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: the advocacy I've been involved with from a few decades now, 502 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: is that there are plenty of good laws on the 503 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: books in this country and there's no enforcement. Sure, they 504 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: don't make anybody do anything that they should be doing 505 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: a large industry. 506 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: Do you agree, I say, we go through phases of 507 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: it being better and worse. I think from an environmental perspective, 508 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: we have the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act, 509 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: and the EBA has always functioned on a shoe string 510 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 2: budget in terms of enforcing anything related to those two things. 511 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: But actually, what I'm really interested now is the fact 512 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 2: that environmental justice as a government concept is being erased 513 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: in this administration. And most people think, oh, environmental justice, 514 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 2: that's this kind of like a DEI thing ideologically, but 515 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: what is the actual impact. And the impact is the 516 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 2: fact that Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act 517 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: leave a ton of environmental hazards uncovered because they regulate 518 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: each point source of pollution. But let's say you're a 519 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: person living in a neighborhood where there's twenty five sources 520 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: of pollution. There's four refineries, there's a garbage incinerator, there's 521 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: several factories, nuclear power plan nuclear anything of that nature. 522 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: Trucking in the area, that's a combined effect that you're ingesting, 523 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: breathing in as a resident of that area that is 524 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: completely uncovered by either of those two main environmental acts 525 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: that we have on the books. And so environmental justice 526 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: exists to fill that space, to have some government oversight 527 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: mediating the way that people experience those many, many sources 528 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: of pollution at once. And without that, we like many 529 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: many people will fall through the cracks of that. So 530 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: you have diminished enforcement even of the two main laws 531 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 2: that we have in the books, But then you have 532 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: absolutely nothing at helping people where they're actually at and 533 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: how they actually experience environmental harm. These are neighborhoods where 534 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: the life expectancy could be twelve years less than the 535 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: neighborhood next door, just because they have so many sources 536 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: of pollution. So this eradicating of environmental justice is a 537 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: deeper issue, I think than most people realize. 538 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: Writer and journalist Zoe Schlanger. If you're enjoying this conversation, 539 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: Tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 540 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get 541 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Schlanger discusses how climate 542 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: denial often has better funding than climate education and why 543 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: she believes the narrative has been pushed in the wrong direction. 544 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. Zoe 545 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: Schlanger's writing often focuses on climate change and environmental policy. Recently, 546 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: she took a break to explore the world of botany 547 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: during a period of perceived burnout. While writing about the 548 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: current state of the climate in the aftermath of the 549 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: recent Los Angeles fires, I wondered what more will it 550 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: take for people to truly pay attention to the changes 551 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: in our climate? And what gives Schlanger hope for environmental 552 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: advocacy these days. 553 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: I think there are a number of people in government 554 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: who really want to make a real difference. I most 555 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: recently felt hope when listening to a Senate hearing about 556 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: the role of insurance companies in the climate crisis and 557 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: the fact that they were dropping many people from home 558 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: insurance because they lived in such climate vulnerable areas, but 559 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: at the same time, we're still ensuring fossil fuel projects. 560 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: And also the insurance sector is a major investor in 561 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry. And it was heartening to see 562 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 2: senators really take them to task and go how can 563 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: you have a hand in both of these things? And 564 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: that was Cenator Sheldon Whitehouse and Senator bor Elizabeth Warren 565 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: asking really tough questions of So whenever I see a 566 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: real accountability action take place where we're actually pointing the 567 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: finger at actors that are knowingly contributing to this, that's 568 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: very heartening to me, because I think too much focus 569 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: is on the sort of individual responsibility, this idea we 570 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 2: should all recycle, which I'm not saying anyone should stop doing, 571 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: but we are part of a system, and the system 572 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: is larger than any individual consumer. It's not right to 573 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: say that just because you consume fossil fuels that you 574 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: are implicated in the climate crisis. There's much bigger machinations 575 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: at work to keep us doing that, and it's always 576 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: heartening to see some government officials stepping up and recognizing that. 577 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: Well, when you hear the propaganda from quote unquote the 578 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,479 Speaker 1: other side the business, I shall we say where they 579 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: mock recycling and say it's only making a little dent, 580 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, well, it's more the spirit 581 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: of it. The recycling thing, to me is just like 582 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: a credo. You're making a stand and saying I care 583 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: enough about the environment, and hopefully that again will expand 584 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: in other directions. Yeah. 585 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: I think I covered the plastic industry for several years 586 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: and learning how little gets actually recycled and other watching 587 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: other people come to that realization as well, produces some 588 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: measure of rage. And I think rage is a very 589 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: important emotion when it comes to these things. It's very 590 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: like you said, you recycle, maybe not because you think 591 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: it's going to save the world, but because you are 592 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 2: putting your flag in the ground that you want to 593 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: do something, and you are at the same time expressing 594 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: a measure disappointment in the powers of it. 595 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: I don't like to use the word rage anymore. I 596 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: like to use the word indignation. 597 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: Indignation, productive indignation. 598 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: We can't We got to be careful what we rage 599 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: against these days. For myself, I wonder environmentally what's going 600 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: to have to happen, And I'm not talking about some 601 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: horror movie or you know, some tsunami the size of 602 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon comes rolling in. But I wonder what's 603 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: going to have to happen before people really really start 604 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: to pay attention to this on a wholesale level. Do 605 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: you ever think about that? 606 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, this kind of also goes back to things 607 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: that give me hope. Much more direct form of hope 608 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: I have is the fact that to some degree, this 609 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: transition to electrification to renewable sources is going to happen, 610 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: whether or not we have government support of doing so. 611 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: The solar boom is in full effect. It's totally surpassing 612 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: everybody's ideas of what would happen. So I am somewhat 613 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: heartened by the fact that the market itself is driving 614 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: in the direction of this is the cheapest, best, most 615 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: efficient form of energy can make, and we're going to 616 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: do it because it makes market sense. So I'm hoping 617 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: that it's not even won't be about this mass wholesale 618 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: devastation that we have to endure to finally wake up. 619 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 2: It'll just be the sensible business choice for some energy companies. 620 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 2: That may be wishful thinking, but I think it's possible, 621 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: you know. 622 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: I realized that For me, I think do people only react? 623 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm asking this is a question, but it's 624 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: more rhetorical, which is that do people in this country, especially, 625 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: do they react to things only when it touches them? 626 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: Like there's fires in California, but don't see any fire. 627 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: No fires on sixth Avenue. You know, we're good here, 628 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: But what's the we had sandy and the water came 629 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: up to fourteenth Street or whatever. Does it really always 630 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: have to be that it impacts you before you really 631 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: really care? Do you believe that? 632 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: I think that that's a pretty rational facet of being 633 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 2: a human, that things are really untangible until they're tangible. 634 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 2: And I don't necessarily blame people for not thinking about 635 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: it in their daily busy lives, but I feel like, 636 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 2: you know, even thinking about fires. We were all here 637 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: for the Canadian wildfire smoke that hit in New York 638 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 2: City so intensely. I was actually in Canada during that time, 639 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: but people felt touched by that. I don't think there's 640 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: very few places in the country that haven't already been 641 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 2: touched by some kind of climate disaster. 642 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: Even next Arizona one hundred degrees over these for one 643 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: hundred days. I'm like, that's not enough to drive you 644 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: towards some environmental. 645 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you one can't discount the decades of misinformation, 646 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: willful disinformation that was perpetuated by the fossil fuel industry. 647 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: You know, I know you had Naomi or Rescu's on 648 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: your show, and of course she wrote Merchants of Doubt, 649 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: the incredible book about this. But I recently had to 650 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: review another recent book called The Parrot and the Igloo, 651 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 2: and that was just this recounting of the last fifty 652 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: sixty years of very well financed disinformation to keep us 653 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: from really engaging with the climate issues. It felt that 654 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: every time the country was at a precipice of genuine concern, 655 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 2: scientists had officially broken through. Congress was engaged the sort 656 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: of pr machine to avoid any real phase out of 657 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: fossil fuels or real recognition of this issue at a 658 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: federal level. Were dropped in, and this narrative was pushed 659 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 2: that climate change isn't real. And this is a classic pattern. 660 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 2: Climate denihalism is much more funded in many ways than 661 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: climate education, and so that is why people are in 662 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: this position. It's not for lack of self interest. It's 663 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: actually just education in the wrong direction. 664 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: Well, I remember when on the south shore of Long Island, 665 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: near my home I grew up in as a child, 666 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: that were going to build these wind turbines, which all 667 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: people were screaming, you know, environmentalists having to deal with 668 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: the nimbi crowded was saying, these are to these I sores, 669 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: and these going to be so ugly, and you're to 670 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: look out on the ocean from the beaches, the fabled 671 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: beaches of Long Island and see all this crap. And 672 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: I thought, God, when I see wind turbines anywhere, it's 673 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: like the statue of liberty. To me, it's a symbol 674 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: of our freedom from something that's going to kill us eventually. 675 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: You know. My spirit animal teaches me that the Earth 676 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: is a self managing mechanism and we will all die 677 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: off because the planet needs to get rid of us 678 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: the planet for the planet to survive on some level, 679 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: a humankind must go unless they amended their ways and 680 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: lived more because some kind of a spiritual connection to 681 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: the land and the water. And the other thing I 682 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: think is that solar arrays all across Death Valley, and 683 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: we should have wind turbines on the Great Lakes. Someone 684 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: told me once that they put wind turbines to write 685 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: amount in the right places in the Great Lakes. You 686 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: have enough power for thirty percent of the country from 687 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: the winds during that time of year when it's very 688 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: very high winds there. Yeah. 689 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: I mean you think about the expansion of the fossil 690 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 2: fuel infrastructure. That was a massive infrastructure process that the 691 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: country went through at some point, and we can do 692 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: the same thing, could have a massive industrial proliferation of 693 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,959 Speaker 2: clean energy. But back to your point about humans needing 694 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: to die off, I think that's actually that sort of 695 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: forecloses a certain measure of hope. I mean, humanity has 696 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 2: not always had this orientation towards the natural world. Actually, 697 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: for far longer than our current version of exploiting the 698 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: natural world. There has been the long history of humanity 699 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 2: that we're very much stewards of and organisms working in 700 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: concert with the natural world. And I do think humans 701 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: will be the ones to figure out how to return 702 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: to such a state. But I don't think that the 703 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 2: planet's going to spit us out, so to speak. 704 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for coming on 705 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: and doing this with me. I read your writing, and 706 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: I'm just such a great admirer of your thinking. For 707 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: someone who is covering this, you do it so well. 708 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you're so articulate and about this subject in others. 709 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: So appreciate that. 710 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: My thanks to writer and journalist Zoey Schlang. This episode 711 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. Were 712 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 713 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 714 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich by Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing, as brought 715 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio