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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. Let's give a big shout out to the

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Speaker 1: man the myth Legend super producer, mister Max Williams.

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Speaker 2: I am that human being that Ben has referenced.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, this is all what we will call technically

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Speaker 1: the truth on Reddit. That's an awesome subreddit. It's a

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Speaker 1: weird one.

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Speaker 2: Well. Hey, we are in the midst of a conversation

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Speaker 2: already in progress with the wonderful Eves, Jeff Coats and

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Speaker 2: Katie Mitchell of on Theme the podcast. We are discussing

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Speaker 2: the history of minstrel shows and very problematic and difficult

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Speaker 2: genre of song known as coon songs, and we are

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Speaker 2: going to get back into it and then take it

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Speaker 2: even further than I think any of us expect it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to introduce this I'm bim bowling and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, bread that's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's get into it, folks. We're also going

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Speaker 1: to learn about some philosophical dark nights of the soul,

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Speaker 1: what happens when art becomes commodified, and this gives us,

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Speaker 1: this gives us a window into something that I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: the US are they maybe only have a surface awareness

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Speaker 1: of it without a full understanding of the complexities. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just picturing right now, Katie Eve's nol Max. I'm

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Speaker 1: picturing this idea of Earnest finishing a show, right the

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Speaker 1: show goes well, He's on tour, and then someone comes

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Speaker 1: to him, maybe a child or something, and is saying, like,

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Speaker 1: why are you doing this? You know this kind of

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Speaker 1: like dark Knight of the Soul, wrestling with your conscience?

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Speaker 1: Uh you said, we said that.

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Speaker 2: I also had a lot of white folks patting him

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Speaker 2: on the back and saying, good job.

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Speaker 3: You look deeper than any.

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Speaker 1: Some guys like you know, I'm also for bullying Green. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think you're doing a great job. Uh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: see that. But I'm wondering, like, when we're talking about Regret,

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Speaker 1: what do we know about his his journey, you know,

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Speaker 1: to pretty much musical stardom and then his later regrets

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Speaker 1: Because we mentioned that several times.

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Speaker 4: So I know about his rise in ragtime and his composing.

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Speaker 4: He wrote plenty of songs, some of them being clone songs.

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Speaker 4: His regret is only kind of really tangentially mentioned, which

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Speaker 4: is was the thing that was fascinating to me because

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Speaker 4: because he was so huge, and because we only have

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Speaker 4: this very small glimpse or insight into him being like, hey,

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Speaker 4: I really it's unfortunate that that was part of that

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Speaker 4: that is part of my history. But one thing that

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Speaker 4: he did also say about his regret was that he

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Speaker 4: he also acknowledged how important it was that he was

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Speaker 4: part of that history, because he acknowledged that coon songs,

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Speaker 4: if it hadn't been for coon songs, if they never existed,

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Speaker 4: if ragtime wasn't a part of this, then black entertainers

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have gotten the opportunities that they would have.

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Speaker 3: So he acknowledged the.

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Speaker 2: Approach to it. Yeah, and that is there is truth

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Speaker 2: to that. Right.

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Speaker 4: So he died of tuberculosis in nineteen oh nine and

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Speaker 4: he was just forty four. So although he was working

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Speaker 4: as an entertainer from an early age and continued doing

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Speaker 4: that and got big during his life, he was only

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Speaker 4: forty four when he died, so he only had so

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Speaker 4: much time to rise to stardom.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're we're close enough in age that forty four

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Speaker 1: is officially a scary number.

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Speaker 2: Bro, I think about it all the time.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand he was, this was around like

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundred, it's nineteen o eight to nine

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Speaker 1: and just forty four years old. How did the public react?

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Speaker 1: What do we know about this guy? Because in full disclosure,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Noel, but I had never

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Speaker 1: heard of Hogan before we started talking about doing the show.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think also one of the things with

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Speaker 5: the regret is like, have you ever done something that

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Speaker 5: you were just like kind of doing for money and

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Speaker 5: you didn't think like a bunch of people are going

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Speaker 5: to see it? Or you did it like when you

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Speaker 5: were younger and like that's not really my thing, but

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Speaker 5: I'm just doing it and it's illegal for you to

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Speaker 5: ask me that.

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Speaker 2: Thankfully, most of those things not a lot of people

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Speaker 2: saw them, thankfully, but no, certainly any like just the

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Speaker 2: worry someone will see it, yeahself a thing.

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Speaker 5: So I think like anything that you're like doing in

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Speaker 5: your early twenties, you're like, oh, that's like kind of embarrassing.

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Speaker 5: But like you know, luckily for us, like they didn't

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Speaker 5: like get to the point where Ernest did. But I

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Speaker 5: think that's a lot of their regret too. It's just

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Speaker 5: like I was just doing this thing. I didn't know,

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Speaker 5: like you said, like there are so many coon songs,

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Speaker 5: like why is this the one that took off?

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Speaker 3: And like now this is like my legacy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and so just on the coon songs and the

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Speaker 4: proliferation of coon songs, there were hundreds of them in

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Speaker 4: the early eighteen nineties so or in the eighteen nineties.

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Speaker 4: It's the mid eighteen nineties to the late eighteen nineties

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Speaker 4: is when they started getting popular. So there's this huge

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Speaker 4: boom of coon songs. I'm not exactly sure how people

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Speaker 4: responded when Hogan died. I'm not sure if people were like,

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Speaker 4: oh my goodness, this huge star is gone.

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Speaker 6: But around the time he died, coon songs.

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Speaker 4: Were still people were talking about how they were on

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Speaker 4: their way out kind of around that time. So not

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Speaker 4: although I'm not able to say exactly how people responded,

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Speaker 4: I can't think of any individuals who are like, oh

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Speaker 4: my goodness, or any press that may have been in

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Speaker 4: the newspapers about his death. People weren't kind of like

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Speaker 4: not feeling coon songs so much. There were people who

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Speaker 4: were like that can die. So I would imagine there

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Speaker 4: are people who were also like, can.

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Speaker 3: Die along with that?

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, But I'm sure there were also people who

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Speaker 4: recognize his legacy had said this person who created this

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Speaker 4: big hit was like so, I'm sure there was probably

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Speaker 4: some sort of debate around Coon songs at the time

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Speaker 4: of his death, because he was so integral in their making.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just found something kind of interesting because

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Speaker 2: you mentioned that some of these songs had little satirical

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Speaker 2: kind of jabs built into them, little easter eggs. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if this is that I think it is,

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Speaker 2: but another of Hogan's songs was called the Phrenologist Kuon,

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Speaker 2: And you know, the idea of phrenology, obviously is a

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Speaker 2: mega racist concept of being able to tell someone's inferiority

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Speaker 2: by the bumps on their skull or whatever. And this

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Speaker 2: article that I found suggests that this song of his

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Speaker 2: was satirical and was an example of this type of

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Speaker 2: black culture contributions to pop culture at the time, engaging

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Speaker 2: with political ideas that were maybe sort of buried beneath

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Speaker 2: the surface a little bit. I thought that was kind

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Speaker 2: of cool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, phrenology is a big one. Yeah, so they did

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Speaker 4: have comments about stuff. And on that note, I well,

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Speaker 4: I have some lyrics that I enjoy that I that

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Speaker 4: are pretty satirical from Irving Jones. He had a song

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Speaker 4: that called that was called My Money Never Gives Out.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things that I love about Irvin

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Speaker 4: Jones is a lot of his songs are about money,

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Speaker 4: and they're very tongue in cheek, Like I feel like

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Speaker 4: how sometimes black people just understand other things and black

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Speaker 4: people's artistry because of this share consciousness and culture that

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Speaker 4: we have. And when I look at these kind of lyrics,

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Speaker 4: I could see like a white person reading them back

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Speaker 4: then and.

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Speaker 3: Being like, yeah, he's right, I hate those.

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Speaker 4: You know, and then black people being like, I know

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Speaker 4: exactly what he's talking about. So he says in these lyrics,

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Speaker 4: he says, I have everything to eat a king could wish.

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Speaker 4: On Fridays, I even eat fried goldfish. I make all

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Speaker 4: the warm coons look ice cold. Eat every tooth in

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Speaker 4: my mouth is solid gold. And then he also says,

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Speaker 4: almost every hour I change my hat. A poor coon

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Speaker 4: I've hired as my doormat. I step on that coon

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Speaker 4: going through the door so I won't spoil the velvet

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Speaker 4: carpet on my floor.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: So just imagine like you know, it's I So he's

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Speaker 4: speaking it from this kind of first person perspective, but

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Speaker 4: it's coming out of a black person's mouth, but the

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Speaker 4: persona he's taken on is one of somebody who has

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Speaker 4: enormous wealth, Like well, it's a lot of I'm sure

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Speaker 4: a lot of the white people who were listening to

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Speaker 4: this song and had this sheet music they didn't have

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Speaker 4: for themselves, I mean. But also just the tongue in

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Speaker 4: cheek nature you can see that he's throwing it to

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Speaker 4: like these are jabs because goldfish fried goldfish, right, that's absurdist.

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Speaker 4: And velvet carpet also a little absurdist. That's probably beyond

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Speaker 4: what a lot of people had, Like that wasn't a

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Speaker 4: normal thing, even for people who were middle class.

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Speaker 2: Thing, wouldn't it get like scuffed up? Real bad wall covering?

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Speaker 2: You gotta think about walking on velvet. But it's a

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Speaker 2: funny too, the cadence of that when you read it,

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Speaker 2: it really has kind of a modern hip hop kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, yeah, yeah, no, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I really enjoyed that song. Enjoyed is a

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Speaker 4: word to use for it, But you know, it's fun

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Speaker 4: like honestly, truly it's fun. And you can see that

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Speaker 4: in some of the writer's works. I think, like the

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Speaker 4: Phrenologist Coon and then and My Money Never Gives Out.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yes, that sounds like rap, like a wrap title.

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Speaker 2: It would work today.

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Speaker 4: So all your rappers out there trying to make it big,

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Speaker 4: if you're still selling your CDs out of trunks, you

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Speaker 4: might need to look back to some Coon song.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, oh great, I love it. Folks.

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Speaker 1: We live in Atlanta, I know, I know the people

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Speaker 1: making those mixtapes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some of them them are good.

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Speaker 1: Some of them are good, some of the were good. But

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Speaker 1: this also shows us I think a period of maybe

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Speaker 1: decline and then perhaps resurgence and re examination in scholarship

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Speaker 1: right with with Coon songs. So from my understanding, it

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Speaker 1: is the early twentieth century when they start to die out,

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Speaker 1: right like sort of prefaced maybe by the passage of earnest,

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Speaker 1: but they were.

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Speaker 2: Considered tasteless or something. I bet there was a sense.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's still the nineteen I know. I

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Speaker 2: just I wonder what what the sentiment was, though, Like

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Speaker 2: why did they die out? Like I'm just wondering what

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Speaker 2: the you know, I just was replaced by something else,

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Speaker 2: like I just you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: So there are multiple reasons for it dying out, as

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Speaker 4: with so many other fats. So coon songs were kind

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Speaker 4: of a fat, like it was a crazy happened, and

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Speaker 4: then coon songs were a fat and then rag Time,

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Speaker 4: as part of that history, was also a fat itself.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know if you want me to back

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Speaker 4: up or not, because I didn't really get into rag

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Speaker 4: time too much, so he should do. Yeah, I could

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Speaker 4: talk about that along with the coinciding of the death.

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Speaker 2: I think that's perfect, ok yea yeah, because I mean

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Speaker 2: I think people we didn't really describe it, but you

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Speaker 2: did use the word syncopation and obviously piano centric oft

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Speaker 2: the times it's solo piano driven, but then there's also

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Speaker 2: other instruments. But I think people most people can picture

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Speaker 2: what a rag time tune sounds like.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, when I think of six Flags over.

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Speaker 2: George I knew, yeah, because having like the Western Saloon

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Speaker 2: kind of vibes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember one of the one of the first

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Speaker 1: times I went to six Flags Over Georgia as a kid,

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Speaker 1: and my my dad.

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Speaker 2: Was taking us. One of the first things he said

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Speaker 2: we walked in.

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Speaker 1: They have that music playing, and he goes, wow, we're

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Speaker 1: we're definitely in the South.

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Speaker 2: It sort of you had a little stinger and it's

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Speaker 2: some up ragtime. It's bout up up, you know, like

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Speaker 2: it's sort of like that vibe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, these fingers.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't I didn't understand that guy's statement in

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Speaker 1: six Flags until quite sometimes where right?

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Speaker 2: But this? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So the history of ragtime is it? Is it distinct

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Speaker 1: from the history of coon songs? Is there like a

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Speaker 1: Venn diagram? And if so, to what degree?

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Speaker 4: So they go together, they go hand in hand, they

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Speaker 4: are not the same, although you would see in sources

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Speaker 4: of the era people calling Kon songs ragtime and ragtime

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Speaker 4: coon songs. So that shows you just how much they

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Speaker 4: were blended. And it kind of confused me when I

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Speaker 4: was going back through some primary sources, because I was like,

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Speaker 4: you're talking about the death of ragtime, but I'm looking

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Speaker 4: at the newspaper date and that was nineteen oh six

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Speaker 4: and ragtime still alive in nineteen oh six. So a

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Speaker 4: lot of times, because coon songs were so inextricably linked

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Speaker 4: with ragtime, they were called the same thing. So yes,

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Speaker 4: the histories are very intertwined. But like I said before,

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Speaker 4: there were kind of coon songs that weren't that weren't

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Speaker 4: linked to ragtime in the eighteen eighties, and it came

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Speaker 4: into the eighteen nineties, and then ragtime came around, which

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Speaker 4: it was this specific kind of music that you know,

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Speaker 4: Noah was saying, the syncopated beats, It was very piano heavy,

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Speaker 4: one person was playing a piano, and it was very

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Speaker 4: lively and energetic. All of this still coming from a

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Speaker 4: black musical, black folk music background, So that's where ragtime

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Speaker 4: black ragtime. Ragtime was a specifically black cultural production, So

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Speaker 4: that's where it came from, which is very interesting where

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Speaker 4: you think about how linked it is with coon songs

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Speaker 4: even though it's very rooted.

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Speaker 6: In true black folk traditions.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so they the creation of the two went together,

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Speaker 4: and there was kind of like a rise of rag

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Speaker 4: time as there was.

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Speaker 6: A waning of coon songs.

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Speaker 4: But that's not so hard line to find because there

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Speaker 4: were other ragtime songs. But you can kind of think

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Speaker 4: of it that way because there were other ragtime songs

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Speaker 4: that came kind of after people were hot on coon

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Speaker 4: songs that were more like.

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Speaker 6: People were like this is sophisticated.

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Speaker 4: Listen to the music, the way they put this together,

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Speaker 4: Like these aren't coon songs.

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Speaker 2: So I guess that's what I meant about tasteless, Like

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Speaker 2: it there's less about like, oh, we're offended by this,

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Speaker 2: and more like this is two on the nose. We

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Speaker 2: need something that's a little more subtle and like a

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Speaker 2: little more elevated perhaps, right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's funny you say that, because I think there

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Speaker 4: was an element of like coon songs were very overt

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Speaker 4: in their racism, and then this feels like this is

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Speaker 4: how America works a lot.

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Speaker 3: You just move into more covert racist situation dog whistles particular. Huh,

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Speaker 3: it's sicular.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes we're overt, sometimes we're subtle, right, right, And that

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Speaker 5: was the case with these songs.

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Speaker 4: And and you'll see that, I think in contemporary times

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Speaker 4: and then in scholarship after the fact to looking back

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Speaker 4: on it saying there is a difference between rag time

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Speaker 4: that was simple and it was just it was just commercial,

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Speaker 4: a commercial endeavor, like we did it for the money,

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Speaker 4: and then they're a scholar. There was critics then and

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Speaker 4: then scholars after the fact that said, and there were

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Speaker 4: the people who were creating ragtime as a true musical pursuit,

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Speaker 4: as you know, a really cultural endeavor.

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Speaker 3: But no one would have said that about Clon songs.

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Speaker 6: You don't think, well, I think that.

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Speaker 3: High brow.

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Speaker 4: Well you taught me this. The word highbrow. It comes

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Speaker 4: from prenology.

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Speaker 3: I had to catch.

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Speaker 6: Myself just now. I had to roll it back.

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Speaker 4: But so I think some of the although they that

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Speaker 4: might be accurate use of the word considering the context

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Speaker 4: of the conversation. But yes, so I would say that

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Speaker 4: most people wouldn't say it was a high endeavor, but

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Speaker 4: that Coon songs were musical pursuits. Like there were people

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Speaker 4: who argue this came from a black tradition. So there

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Speaker 4: were black critics who would say, yes, the lyrics are problematic,

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Speaker 4: but also don't just completely dismiss the validity of the

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Speaker 4: music itself, like it is a legitimate craft.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was asking about Hogan too, because even

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Speaker 2: though he may have contributed some problematic things in terms

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Speaker 2: of the lyrics, he also was a big part of

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Speaker 2: shaping that sound right.

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Speaker 4: So there was a history of debate between different critics

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Speaker 4: at the time talking about how they felt about Coon songs.

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Speaker 4: And this is black critics speaking amongst each other. So

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Speaker 4: you know, there are often conversations. You could imagine put

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Speaker 4: yourself back in this day and think about how white

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Speaker 4: people would feel about coon songs and how black people

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Speaker 4: would feel about coon songs.

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Speaker 3: Those are two.

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Speaker 4: Different discussions, and the discussions amongst black people would need

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Speaker 4: to be had amongst black people, like this is like,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about how we feel about this with other

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Speaker 4: black people.

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Speaker 1: And because it changes if like the it changes if say,

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Speaker 1: there there's a conversation with musicians and then white musicians

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Speaker 1: strolls into the room and it's like, well, I also

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Speaker 1: have some opinions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, changes the whole vine, the whole vibe.

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Speaker 4: So there were people who commented on how they didn't

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Speaker 4: like coon songs in newspapers and black newspapers. So these

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Speaker 4: are newspapers that are catering to black audiences, okay, and

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Speaker 4: the people who are writing the articles in the newspapers

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Speaker 4: are black people. And then there are other black critics

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Speaker 4: at the time who are responding and saying, look.

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Speaker 6: Coon songs.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we need to talk about the issues with coon songs,

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Speaker 4: but we also need to acknowledge that these are legitimate

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Speaker 4: musicians who are creating these songs. So this is even

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Speaker 4: just amongst black people who are debating the importance of

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Speaker 4: coon songs and the impact that they did have. So

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Speaker 4: around the time the turn of the twentieth century and

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Speaker 4: into the early the first decade of the nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 4: people were starting to have these conversations talking about how

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Speaker 4: coon songs were going out of style. So I do

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Speaker 4: have a couple of quotes. Some of them are quite long,

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Speaker 4: but they are interesting. So this was from a nineteen

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Speaker 4: oh one article in the Indianapolis Freemen, and they said,

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Speaker 4: it is said that ragtime music is going out of fashion.

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Speaker 3: We are glad of it.

355
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Speaker 4: More lies have been sprung over the footlights in ragtime

356
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Speaker 4: than otherwise.

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Speaker 6: Take the vile lie. All kuons look alike to me?

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Speaker 4: And another song he mentions in this quote every race

359
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Speaker 4: has a flag but the coon. So they're mentioning that

360
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Speaker 4: big song all kuons look alike to me. And I

361
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Speaker 4: should add the caveat here just alone the lines of

362
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Speaker 4: what I said earlier. They're using rag time to mean

363
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Speaker 4: coon songs. In this instance, they're not talking because.

364
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Speaker 2: She still has time left.

365
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Speaker 6: Rag time has time left. This is nineteen oh one.

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Speaker 4: So this is where I was saying, they conflate ragtime

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Speaker 4: with coon songs, and you can kind of tell that

368
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Speaker 4: from the context, because they're clearly talking about all coons

369
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 4: look alike to me, and every race has a flight

370
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Speaker 4: with the coon.

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Speaker 6: Those are coon songs.

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Speaker 1: Ernest is alive to also be cognizant of this criticism exactly.

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Speaker 4: So they go on in this article to talk about

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Speaker 4: how the music is of rag time is tolerable, but

375
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Speaker 4: most of the sentiment of it.

376
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Speaker 3: Is false, degrading, and intolerable.

377
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Speaker 4: We want our men and women on the stage, but

378
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Speaker 4: we want them in a decent and honorable way.

379
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Speaker 2: There is a black critic, of course, right, this is

380
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Speaker 2: a black.

381
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Speaker 4: Critic, yes, And then they say, there is nothing happened

382
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,479
Speaker 4: since the war that did so much to show up

383
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 4: Negro weaknesses as that very thing of rag time music.

384
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Speaker 4: And then they say, the truth of the whole business

385
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 4: is there was a whole sale letting down of the

386
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 4: racial standard, whatever that might have been. And this is

387
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 4: one of the very interesting quotes from this article. To me,

388
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 4: the writer says, even the whites were becoming inoculated. But

389
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 4: remember the songs did not refer to them. They gave

390
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 4: the shekels that's money to hear us sing away our

391
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 4: honor and we sang. So you can see in the

392
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 4: collective we that they're trying to call attention to the

393
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 4: issues that they may be dealing with this in real time.

394
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Speaker 4: It also feels a little respectable to me because they're saying,

395
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Speaker 4: look at how we look in front of white people

396
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 4: in a way, but they're also saying, look, you know

397
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 4: about what we're doing to ourselves, like this is still

398
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 4: an internal thing.

399
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Speaker 1: The shekels is a little antismitic.

400
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 5: Just a tad, just a tad, yes, so there will

401
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 5: say more. I don't know about that.

402
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 2: It's just it's sort of like a referring to I

403
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 2: think sort of. I don't know how would you describe

404
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 2: it then, So it's it's the choice of that kind

405
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 2: of currency. It's a smaller point in this, but the

406
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: choice of that kind of currency shows us. I think

407
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 2: again that this critic who is raising valid points is

408
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 2: also giving a nod to the old stereotype or conspiratorial

409
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: thought about Jewish people running Hollywood. Yeah and being yeah,

410
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 2: that particular choice feels a little pointed. It's irrelevant. It's

411
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,119
Speaker 2: just interesting how people talking, people speaking out against racism

412
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 2: can also themselves be a little racist. It's very it's

413
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: just very interesting.

414
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 1: But I think you're I mean, I really appreciate that

415
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: quote because it does show us it pain's a perfect picture.

416
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: Like like you and Katie were saying earlier, you know,

417
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: this is how it's the discourse of like this is

418
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: how we look this is important, right, and how do

419
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: we how do we respect the artistry and the drive

420
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 1: of again legitimate musicians while also acknowledging the dangerous or

421
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: problematic things about it. I mean, did scholarship, I'm not

422
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: read up on the research scholarship ever reach a conclusion

423
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: about this, because I'm sure people went back over time

424
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: and re examined this specific genre of music.

425
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 5: Well, I think the main point here, like with the sentence,

426
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 5: we want our men and women on the stage, but

427
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 5: we want them they're in a decent way.

428
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 3: I think like the.

429
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 5: Whole representation of it all is I think a lot

430
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 5: of people's solution to that so like, yeah, like some

431
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 5: people are going to be doing like some coon stuff

432
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 5: like in the Year of Our Lord twenty twenty four,

433
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 5: Like there are people doing that, but there's other opportunities

434
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 5: for you to do something else. And I think that

435
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 5: was kind of the main tension, like this is the

436
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 5: only way we're able to show up in this space,

437
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 5: and you know, some like this is people's talents, their singers,

438
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 5: their actors, and if this is the only way they

439
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 5: could get their art out, then that's the issue. But like,

440
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 5: if there's other ways where you can be decent and

441
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 5: honorable and respectable intolerable, then I think that is kind

442
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 5: of what they were, you know, fighting for.

443
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: I mean, that would certainly come you know, I mean

444
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: ragtime was also sort of a proto form of jazz,

445
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: and then you know, jazz is very much a black

446
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: and American you know, tradition.

447
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 4: Well that was also seen as evil jazz. Yes, it

448
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: faced it, Yes it was and on into hip hop.

449
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 4: But I think it's interesting because there was a book

450
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 4: that I was reading that was really arguing for ragtime

451
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 4: as its own distinct because a lot of people do

452
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 4: associate ragtime with jazz, but as its own distinct cultural

453
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 4: influence where jazz did come after, and people were kind

454
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 4: of like, you know, look at this elevated art form

455
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 4: versus ragtime felt a little more simple. Earlier, it was

456
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 4: more about ritual in the music. It was coming from

457
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 4: like it was repetitive. Ragtime was very repetitive, and going

458
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 4: into jazz it was more like free flowing.

459
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 6: And it was it was. It was definitely different.

460
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: Like considering it was more academically in a way too.

461
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 2: I mean, like the ragtime was pretty pure like popcorn

462
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: kind of you know, going to the movie's tent pole stuff,

463
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: and jazz is a little more high minded. Are there

464
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: banjo's and jazz?

465
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: There can't be there can be jazz jazz manzz.

466
00:23:59,520 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

467
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So.

468
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: I think there there was an argument in a book

469
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 4: that was reading that like it is, it was a

470
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 4: very it was this rag Time was his own distinct

471
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: era of black cultural music that without that era of Ragtime,

472
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 4: like everything after it that came and black musical culture

473
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 4: in the United States wouldn't have happened. Like it was

474
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 4: specifically because of rag Time that black entertainer black entertainers

475
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 4: were able to enter the mainstream, right.

476
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: I think that's what I was getting at. I mean,

477
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: like it was just it just got better from there.

478
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 2: But you're to your point about the evil aspect. I'm

479
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 2: really interested in a little more of that, Like what

480
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: do you mean when you say it was I know

481
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 2: there was kind of controversial figure it was it was

482
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: like corrupting the youth and stuff. Is that kind of

483
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: what you're referring to.

484
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think because it was like a very

485
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 5: black uh export, it was like, ah, this is evil,

486
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 5: like what are they doing, Like we don't understand it.

487
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: You know, to stop it from being intensely popular, which

488
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: is controversial.

489
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 5: I mean, I think the same thing with like hip hop,

490
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 5: like and say it's evil and then it's like the

491
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 5: number one selling music in the United States.

492
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: So because there's there's also I think for at least

493
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: the white part of America in the age of jazz,

494
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: at least was there there was this idea that there

495
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: was something forbidden, right, and then now now they're on

496
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: they're walking on a dangerous side, which, of course is

497
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: it uh, pretty messed up, I think. But we also see,

498
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, the moral panic that sprang out of jazz

499
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: bringing communities together in different ways, and I think that

500
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: led that was a big part of what later leads

501
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: to Harry and Slinger's war against cannabis, right, because a

502
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: lot of the marijuana madness was based on the idea

503
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: of like someone smoking again a jazz cigarette and the

504
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: next thing, you know, they're like not down with Jim

505
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Crow or something. Right, this is I just I keep

506
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: thinking about your point, Katie, about the way things informed policy, right,

507
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: and do we see this? I guess we do see

508
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: it continuing to under the present.

509
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 5: Absolutely. We had an episode about because you know, thugs

510
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 5: on trial right now? Oh yeah, yeah, So we had

511
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 5: an episode about how rap lyrics are used in court

512
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 5: to say like.

513
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah you did this, he murdered somebody else. Super problematic.

514
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 7: Right, there's some great key and sketches thinking about with

515
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 7: this now that's been coming up more and more lately,

516
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 7: that that whole idea, it seems a little bit of

517
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 7: a reach too or overreach.

518
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

519
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean we talked to a documentary filmmaker and

520
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 5: artist who looked at Atlanta, Chicago, New York, LA and

521
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 5: London just trying to get people's take on it, and

522
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 5: it does seem like a reach, especially when you look

523
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 5: at the other forms of music where they're talking about

524
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 5: like shooting people and.

525
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: I wrote a short story about a school shooter. You know,

526
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: does that mean that? I'm like, where does the creative

527
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: artistic license coming. I shot a man just to see

528
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: him dye, right. I took some cocaine and then I

529
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: like shot that something down. Yeah. Yeah, well I'm sure

530
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: that's great on kicks one oh five or whatever.

531
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, but because it has like a trap beat to it,

532
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 5: it's like it's true, it's true.

533
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, we definitely see that now.

534
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: And this brings us to our earlier question. The prompted

535
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: the exploration of ragtime and jazz right the So we've

536
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: established that coon songs are starting to die out right

537
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 1: and ragtime continues afterward for what a good like five years.

538
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: For lag tens.

539
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 4: So around the early nineteen or to late nineteen tens

540
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: is when ragtime starts giving way to jazz. In the

541
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 4: nineteen twenties, you get into more jazz situation. So yeah,

542
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 4: I love a good jazz. That's a wide range of things.

543
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: I completely agree.

544
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 4: But yeah, so ragtime was very influential in the rise

545
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 4: of black music, and kind of what we were talking

546
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 4: about earlier, NOL is that ragtime was the first black

547
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: music of the United States to achieve why commercial popularity,

548
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 4: which is why I was emphasizing the importance of ragtime

549
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 4: because like like Ernest Hogan gave not to, and other

550
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 4: entertainers at the time would give nod to. It's like

551
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 4: if it weren't for coon songs gave black entertainers an

552
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 4: avenue to put their workout right, so we think in

553
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 4: rag time. So then we get into Ragtime. So now

554
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 4: we see black entertainers being able to put their music

555
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 4: out in front of people and get in front of

556
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: audiences they wouldn't have been in front of before because

557
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 4: white folks were like not so high in that black

558
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 4: folks stuff. A lot of them were until Ragtime came

559
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 4: around and they're like, oh, this has some merit, and

560
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 4: then they were able to start They Now black people

561
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: were able to reach a different kind of commercial.

562
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: Level open closed doors.

563
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 6: Open closed doors.

564
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: So that didn't delegitimize the fact that the music that

565
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: they were doing before they didn't need outside approval for it.

566
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: But the reality is that outside approval got them put

567
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 4: in front front of larger audiences.

568
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: Well, and while you might not have heard of Ernest Hogan,

569
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: you've probably heard of Scott Joplin. Yeah you know, I

570
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: mean that's like a megastar of the Ragtime movement.

571
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, and people have probably heard their music even

572
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 4: if they don't know there exactly.

573
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is I think some of

574
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: the more important things we're hitting on here. This shows us,

575
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: like you were saying, the cyclical nature of the of

576
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: the explorations, the way art will tackle the real world,

577
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: and the way the real world will influence art. And

578
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: our story is not completely over yet, isn't that right?

579
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: That is right?

580
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 4: So I will say that in the book The Art

581
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: of Ragtime, the authors say that Ragtime affected a total

582
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: musical revolution. That's how serious they said it was, and

583
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: that it was the first great impact of black folk

584
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 4: culture and the dominant white middle class culture of America.

585
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 6: So it was just huge.

586
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 4: Yes, it can be considered like a precursor to jazz,

587
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 4: but it wasn't just that jazz grew out of it totally.

588
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: It was just it was the next thing that happened.

589
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: And of course, as we think of how different eras

590
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 4: of culture or different genres spring out of things, the

591
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 4: origins of that are so huge, like they did come

592
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: from so many different places, and I think that was

593
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 4: the case for a jazz as well. But yeah, ragtime,

594
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 4: it just referred to this kind of like broken rhythmic

595
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 4: features and that came out of some of the same

596
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: elements that the coon songs had, and.

597
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 6: It morphed into.

598
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: This really huge popular It was a really big explosion basically,

599
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 4: and so these rags were at first, in terms of

600
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 4: the history of ragtime, the word rag referred to these

601
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 4: simple black folk melodies. So these songs were usually really brief,

602
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: and they were simple, and they were repetitive, and the

603
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 4: songs weren't that complex. So as we can see, that

604
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 4: alignes really well with coon songs, and it grew out

605
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 4: of that history of blackface minstrel shows. But also there

606
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: was that element of black dance music that was in

607
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 4: ragtime as well. So yeah, it kept going, but then

608
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: it was it didn't last that long, So it ended

609
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 4: in the nineteen teens, and that did, as we were

610
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: talking about, jazz come back later on. So in the

611
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 4: nineteen forties and in the nineteen fifties, ragtime had a

612
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 4: kind of resurgence because there were jazz musicians who were

613
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: looking back to ragtime and using that in their shows.

614
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 4: And then also previous ragtime songs were being recorded so

615
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 4: that they were able to be released and published. So

616
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 4: there was a resurgence that came back from ragtime, but

617
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: as a popular and dominant genre that kind of faded

618
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: out around the.

619
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: Nineteen So twenty twenty five is not the year for

620
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: RAGTIME's big comeback.

621
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: You never know, you never know, sampling and who knows, right,

622
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's so interesting too, the idea

623
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: of I mean, when I think of ragtime, it does

624
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: feel a little dated to me, just and it's used

625
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: in that way in movies or whatever. It like evokes

626
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: this time and place kind of vibe where jazz to

627
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: me feel a little more universally.

628
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: Kind of time. Yeah, I think so.

629
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 5: I wonder if there were people that made coon songs

630
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 5: and then made ragtime and then made jazz.

631
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: People who just sort of adapted to the prevailing taste. Yeah,

632
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: I imagine there had to be, right, just because at

633
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: that point you're like a full time musician.

634
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're just going with it.

635
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: You're just trying to go with whatever, whatever will still sell.

636
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: And I'm very conscious when I say that, I'm very

637
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: conscious of the fact that we roasted Drake a little

638
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: bit for doing the exact same thing. But I guess

639
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: you'll just have to cry on a pile of money,

640
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: you know.

641
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: And also there's lyrics. Yeah, oh he does.

642
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

643
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: Maybe those will be using court.

644
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: Do you know if Drake's bed costs one hundred thousand dollars, Yeah,

645
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: it's made of horse hair. It's like some German bed

646
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: manufacturer custom made this mattress. A fool and his money.

647
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 3: Congrats to him.

648
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, a good night's sleep is important. Sorry, but

649
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: where where does this leave us? Where does this take us?

650
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 4: This exploration, Well, just going to Katie's point of kind

651
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 4: of this negative these negative ideas that were.

652
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: Coming upround around jazz and being evil.

653
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 4: There were people who two things about that. On one side,

654
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 4: there were people who saw ragtime now as like this

655
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 4: new image of black people. So now the general public

656
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 4: were starting to understand ragtime artists is like true artists

657
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 4: in a way, rather than looking at them as like, oh,

658
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 4: they're just people who write these simple melodies and coone songs.

659
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 4: So that idea of the coon song and the unrefined

660
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 4: artists kind of started to transform as they moved into

661
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 4: later ragtime.

662
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: They acknowledged the talent.

663
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 6: They acknowledged the talent.

664
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, same thing happened with hip hop. The early era

665
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: of hip hop, where things were a little simpler maybe,

666
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: and it was almost given short shrift by popular culture

667
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: and like you know, white critics and stuff. But then

668
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: you started to see the emergence of true universally recognized artists,

669
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: you know, in the hip hop world exactly.

670
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 4: And the people who were pro ragtime were like, it's

671
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 4: this new and innovative frontier. It's one that hasn't happened

672
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 4: with American musicians and composers before.

673
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 6: So they saw that as a really good thing.

674
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 4: But then there were other anti ragtime people who thought

675
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 4: it was like vulgar, it was noisy, it was unrefined,

676
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 4: and then it was associated with these morally indecent themes.

677
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 4: So an example of that is Samuel Colerich Taylor, who

678
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 4: in a nineteen oh four interview said that coon songs

679
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 4: were the worst sort of rot and taking extrapolating that

680
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 4: to rag time. There is also a quote from Booker T.

681
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 4: Washington in nineteen oh five that prefaced a book of

682
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 4: spirituals So there were distinctions made between spiritual music that

683
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 4: black people created and the coon songs that they created

684
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 4: in terms of that history or ragtime. So there were

685
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 4: black people who felt that these spiritual songs were where

686
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: we should be headed like we should be doing spiritual songs,

687
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 4: because that was a more elevated practice than the coon

688
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 4: songs and the ragtime and all these simple melodies. Were like,

689
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 4: this is a higher form of artistry that were creating

690
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 4: in these spirituals and Booker T. Washington kind of nodded

691
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 4: to that in his quote when he says that when

692
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 4: the Negro song is in too many minds associated with

693
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 4: rad music and the more reprehensible coon song, that the

694
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 4: most cultivated musician of his race, a man of the

695
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 4: highest esthetic ideals to seek to give permanence to the

696
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 4: folk songs of his people by giving them a new interpretation.

697
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 6: And that goes on.

698
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: He was referring to like Samuel Colerich Taylor and the

699
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 4: people who were doing this more spiritual music.

700
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: Also that sounds like classic Booker T. Washington, but does

701
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: sound like one of his quotables. And Samuel Coleridge Taylor,

702
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: I believe is British.

703
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: No, he's not, lest he be confused, not to be

704
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: confused with Samuel Coleridge. And like an opium at it.

705
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: That's totally like I had to look it up and

706
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, that can't be the guy yeah. Yeah, so

707
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: we've got that, We've got that sorted. And we also

708
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: have to one thing I think that's very important for

709
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: people to remember as we're learning about this sort of

710
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: stuff is that with every iteration of these genres of

711
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 2: music or approaches there there was not monolithic approval. Right

712
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: Like when jazz came out.

713
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: I imagine there were many black critics who also there's

714
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: always someone who's like, I liked the other stuff, right,

715
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like jazz too experimental, bring

716
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: the banjo back?

717
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: Where's the rag time? Right?

718
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah? For sure.

719
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: How prominent were those voices.

720
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 6: The voices that said bring back ragtime?

721
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: The voices the voices who were like the voices who

722
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: seemed to look as scance at things like jazz.

723
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: As it emerged multitudinous.

724
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, the right.

725
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, there were a lot of them.

726
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 4: And I also must say that there are people who

727
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: talked about in the contemporary press back then about how

728
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 4: rag time as it fizzled out, it gave way to

729
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 4: other forms of racism, like orientalism was on the rise

730
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 4: at the time, so there was a lot there were

731
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 4: a lot of America were really into Indian culture, so

732
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 4: then they were into Indian music at the time, so

733
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 4: some of these other ring exoticizing fascinations turned into different directions.

734
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: As it does as it does. So I did just

735
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: want to point out maybe I'm just this is just

736
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: in my head, but it feels to me like Ragtime

737
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: heavily influenced a lot of Broadway musical theater styles like

738
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: Leonard Bernstein and stuff like Bernstein, Like just that kind

739
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: of theatricality of piano driven ragtime music and the syncopation.

740
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: It's very like a Broadway in the head.

741
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 3: For some reason, Ragtime fel this is show business.

742
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: They write songs, Yeah, they write songs about doing songs

743
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: on stage, you know what I mean. It's not too

744
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: much of an artistic leap. I'm a sucker for Broadway,

745
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: I'll say it. I feel like we've gotten to know

746
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: each other well enough now that I can admit it.

747
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: Have a stupid love of musical too.

748
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: I saw I just have the Sufian Stevens Illinois musical

749
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: UH in New York, and I cried the whole time.

750
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: It was awesome.

751
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 3: So I have a question for y'all.

752
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: If a Ragtime show were put on today and it

753
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 4: was the same as it would have been back then

754
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 4: like coon songs and in all, would you go.

755
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: To it only if I got permission from the black community.

756
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think so well, it depends, right,

757
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: like is it satire? Like as a young white dude

758
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: watching Bamboozled, it made me feel a way like I

759
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: was like, should I feel really bad for watching this?

760
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 4: Like?

761
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: Am I in trouble for even sitting and watching this?

762
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: Does that make me a bad person? And that's the

763
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: whole point of the movie. If anyone hasn't seen it, it

764
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: really is about kind of like I mean, I'm sure

765
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: watching it as a young black person feel different in

766
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: a whole other way. But I don't know. It did

767
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: feel like a thing that I wasn't supposed to be watching,

768
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: but I did learn a lot from it. And you know,

769
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: it is satire. So if it was a satire and

770
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: it felt like it was done thoughtfully, then I would go.

771
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: But I wouldn't go just to just to see it.

772
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: And I mean I think that would.

773
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: Be for the giggles.

774
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I don't, No, No, It's kind of one

775
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: of those things where, God, what an excellent question. Is

776
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: it is a really good thing it's kind of one

777
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: of the good things. No, no, no, you're doing great,

778
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: like I think it was. I think one of the things.

779
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: And this is this is kind of a cheat code

780
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: answer is I would want to know.

781
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: Who who this was for. That's what I'm the audience, right.

782
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: It reminds me of some interviews I read with the activist,

783
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: a musician no name who was saying, you know, she

784
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: was like, look, I am I am an activist. I

785
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: am also a musician. I don't like looking out into

786
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: the audience and seeing, lack of a better phrase, a

787
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: ton just a bunch of white people rights like, so

788
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: this is I want my music for a specific amount

789
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: of people. I don't know what I would do to

790
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 1: see what is essentially an historical reenactment of a Ragtime show.

791
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I don't know if I

792
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: would have enough information, and I'd be really worried that people

793
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: might raptionalize it. You know, like when Dave Chappelle was

794
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: talking about, uh, he's talking about doing stuff on The

795
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: Chappelle Show, and he would realize people were laughing for.

796
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: It the wrong wrong. I love that black landsman, you know,

797
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: going back to I don't think you got the point.

798
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: The Ernest Hogan thing we're talking about when he gets

799
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: done with the show and some white guy from Kentucky walks.

800
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: Up and is like, great job. That's that's I don't

801
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: know you like our non answers.

802
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 6: I mean I liked it.

803
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that what you were just saying reminded me of

804
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 4: I read in some sources I can't remember, but one

805
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 4: of the black performers he was on tour. He was

806
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: going around the country and he was talking about I

807
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 4: think he had been singing all Kunes luck alike to me,

808
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 4: but if it wasn't that song, it was another coon song.

809
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: And he talked about a white kid coming up to

810
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 4: him afterward, and just like I was like, I don't

811
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 4: know if I should be doing this anymore. So, yeah,

812
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 4: and these productions of things you mentioned. Scott Joplin earlier,

813
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 4: he had an opera that was It contained many different styles,

814
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 4: but it was referred to as a ragtime opera and

815
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 4: it was called tree Minisha or Tremonsha, I'm not sure

816
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 4: exactly how to pronounce it. But that was produced in Atlanta,

817
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 4: so a hometown alignment in January of nineteen seventy two,

818
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: So in that resurgence I was talking about earlier in

819
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 4: the nineteen forties and fifties and into the sixties and seventies.

820
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: You see these.

821
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: Little pockets of time when people are referring back to

822
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 4: the history of ragtime and of coon song.

823
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, what would be the in your opinion's opinion, to

824
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: turn it around an appropriate context for such a reenactment

825
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: like what you were described.

826
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: And to add to that question back, we're just gonna

827
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: like direct the energy here.

828
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: Would you all go, yeah, yeah, Now is there a

829
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: world or a reason why something like that should exist?

830
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: And if there's an answer to that separately, would you

831
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: go absolutely?

832
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 6: And if I was the white person, I would go.

833
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: To Katie, what about you?

834
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: I don't think I would go because I feel like

835
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 3: that the it would just be outdated.

836
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: To me.

837
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: Give me some new stuff. Like to watch all the sitcoms.

838
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: They usually usually I need to say it, they're usually

839
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: not good. All sitcoms. The best part is always the

840
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: theme song, especially when it's a theme song where they

841
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: explain the ridiculous set up and you know.

842
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: We love that. Yeah, I was.

843
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 6: I was enjoying Amos and Andy.

844
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 4: I had like a d v D, like said of

845
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 4: it wasn't because I like stuff like that, Like I

846
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 4: also like collect.

847
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: Andy's borderline minstrel it is it is fully literally. It

848
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: was a radio show, right, wasn't it.

849
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 4: It was a TV show too. It was a radio

850
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: show first and then it became a TV show.

851
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: But yes, that's why I remember the stock characters. It

852
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 2: was like sleep and eat or something like that. Yeah,

853
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: that's what's sleep eat?

854
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 4: I think it was another one to Actually that's right. Yeah,

855
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 4: I think that might have been from bamboozl Sleep and Eat.

856
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: It might have been, but it was referring to.

857
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 4: Yes, but you're on it. But I oddly like, you know,

858
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 4: I collect. I collect things like that too, like I

859
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 4: actually meant to bring. I think I actually had some

860
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 4: sheet music. I don't know if it was specifically Coon songs,

861
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 4: but for y'all to see the covers, because I actually

862
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 4: have some of that old problematic music and some of

863
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 4: the old postcards that people will send of like these, uh,

864
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 4: what's the red lip characters?

865
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 6: I'm forgetting.

866
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 4: I have like like pickaninnies and mammies, and I have

867
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: the old coon banks like so I like stuff like that,

868
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 4: and I read like anti black propaganda too so I

869
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 4: think that's why I'm so in for it, and I

870
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 4: also understand, you know where Katie's coming from. So I

871
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 4: think it's just because of my particular proclivities.

872
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I pretreciate both of the sleeping also was a

873
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: real character. It was a TV character played by Willie Best.

874
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of stuff in Bamboozo was

875
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 2: like pulled from history.

876
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: And we have to we have to eventually, uh we

877
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: we will have to wrap this episode up. We have

878
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: to have we have to have you all back if

879
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: you'd like to. Because one of the things that I

880
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: think we're we're finding here, it's a point that's so true.

881
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: It verges onto cliche at times, but it's easy for

882
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: people to forget history and to do that quarts I

883
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: think some very dangerous things. This is an amazing exploration.

884
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Katie, Thank you so much.

885
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 2: Eaves.

886
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: You have to tell us where people can find on theme?

887
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having us. This is fun.

888
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: So also thank you for helping us get ahead and

889
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: our buffer.

890
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: A struggle.

891
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: Thank you'all. But yeah, where can we find all of

892
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: your work and the podcast, the book everything coming down

893
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: the Pipe?

894
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you can find on Theme on any platform

895
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 5: that you listen to podcasts, and then our instagram is

896
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 5: on theme show. Our website is on theme dot show,

897
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 5: and you can send us at email it hello at

898
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 5: on Theme dot show and we will write you back.

899
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 5: For the book, it's called Pros to the People. It's

900
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 5: out February twenty twenty five. You can pre order it

901
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 5: now if you just google pro to the People Katie

902
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 5: Mitchell and it'll show up on anywhere you want to.

903
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 5: You want to pre order.

904
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: And this pre orders matter, y'all are important, big deal.

905
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: Publishers love to see that.

906
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I shut up for it.

907
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 4: And if for whatever reason anybody wants to find me,

908
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: they can find me on Instagram at not apologizing, or

909
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 4: you can.

910
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: Just go to my website, Eve's Jeffcote dot com.

911
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: Serious yoga content. I'm not apologizing makes me feel terrible

912
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: a boy myself in the best way. I thank you.

913
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll bringing all the people to yoga.

914
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: Let them know. Yeah, that's it.

915
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 4: Oh and if you want to know how to spell,

916
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 4: my name is y V S. Jeff like the guy's name,

917
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 4: COT likes the thing.

918
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: You wear, j E, F F and H.

919
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: This is uh.

920
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: This is your opportunity, folks, to check out episodes of

921
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 1: on theme. We're excited to tune in any any fan

922
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: of history will agree. They're also just to be quite

923
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: quite honest, I'm impressed by the caliber of the literary

924
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: explorations that you all have on the show.

925
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you don't don't like.

926
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: Smart shows, you can also check Max and Nola myself

927
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: out every week on Ridiculous History. You're really the bus

928
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: the super producer, mister Max Williams. Big thanks to Jonathan

929
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: Strickland aka the Quizz.

930
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah he's Jeff cot here in person, yeah, corporeally, and

931
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: also Christiraciotis, who is in fact here in spirit.

932
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: Alex Williams who composed this slap and bop you here

933
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: at the beginning and end of every show, aj Bahamas

934
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: Jacobs aka the Puzzler, and Noel.

935
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: Thanks to you how you tubo buddy. We'll see you

936
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

937
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

938
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: favorite shows.