1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: Folks, I am very. 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: Excited about the conversation that you're going to get ready 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: to listen to. It is a supercized conversation because I 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: can speak with this person for hours on end. Where 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Kel Willis is a activist, a black trans woman, an author, 8 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: a writer, the former editor of Out Magazine. She is 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: currently an executive producer of the Slate Outspoken for iHeart Podcasts, 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: which is where wk F Daily is, and in today's conversation, 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: where Kell and I talk about the black experience means, 12 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: the queer experience, the trans woman's experience, patriarchy, capitalism, and 13 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: how all of these systems are intertwined, what it means 14 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: for her to hear conversations out of the mouths of 15 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: cisgender black women saying that trans women like her are 16 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: stealing womanhood and getting into conversations around the transphobia and 17 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: the legislative hate that is happening across the country, and 18 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: what it means right to show up still, to be 19 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: centered in joy, to fight for liberation right while not 20 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: being burdened by grief and the consistent killings or suicides 21 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: of young queer people of color, and so today we 22 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: get into it and we unpack so very much because 23 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, you know, I think that it's important, you know, 24 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: I try and use this show as a way to 25 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: go behind the headlines, to really get to the heart 26 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: of the thing, because it's so easy for the white 27 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: supremacist Republican Party to continue to do what they're doing 28 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: because they don't have to deal with the consequences. They 29 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: have created a bubble, right, so they're not understanding this 30 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation that is happening with the young trans people 31 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: in this country because they're creating a climate of terror 32 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: because they're not talking to those people. They don't know 33 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: what it's like to be a black kid in a 34 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: largely white classroom where now your history, your ancestors, contributions 35 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: to the creation of this country are overlooked or played down, 36 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: and what it feels like to continue to embody lies 37 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: while trying to hold your head up. They don't come 38 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: face to face with that. 39 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: They don't care. And so on this. 40 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: Show, I try and do my best to bring you 41 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: real people, real conversations, so that we understand the real 42 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: consequences and not just get miired by the statistics. So 43 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: coming up next my conversation with the amazing rockel Willis, Folks, 44 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: I am so very excited to welcome to WOKF a daily, 45 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: total and complete bad ass friend in the activist space, 46 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: rock hal Willis, who is an activist and author and 47 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: is the executive producer of Outspoken, which is Iheart's podcast network. 48 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: Where we are at WOKF Uh ROCKEU welcome, thank you. 49 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: It's been It's been a summer, right, it has been. 50 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: It has been a summer where I think in the 51 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community we have been trying to both hold 52 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: a sense of pride and joy and love while we 53 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: are watching murders escalate against our community. Most recently that 54 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: made headlines was the stabbing death of Oshay Sibley in Brooklyn, 55 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: New York. In Kensington at a gas station for having 56 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: the audacity to vogue to Beyonce's renaissance while filling up 57 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: his tank with friends. Was stabbed by a seventeen year 58 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: old after an altercation where hate slurs were exchanged towards 59 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: O'Shea and his friends, and he would die on arrival 60 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: at the hospital. When that news came out, I was 61 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: in absolute tears and just heartbroken because this didn't happen 62 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: in some small southern town, This didn't happen in some 63 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: rural space. This happened in Brooklyn, a couple of miles 64 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: from where I live, and so I wanted to get 65 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: first your initial reactions to his death. 66 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, my first reaction was one of. 67 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: Shock again, And it almost feels weird to say that, 68 00:05:53,880 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 4: because it shouldn't be shocking, unfortunately for us to experience 69 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 4: the death of another black person, of another queer person, 70 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 4: a gay person, you know, especially when we know we 71 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 4: have a culture and a society that continues to not 72 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 4: take our lives seriously and continues to tell us that 73 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 4: we are unnatural, that we shouldn't exist, that if we 74 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 4: do exist, or say that we exist, that we are. 75 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 3: Delusional or. 76 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 4: A joke, and at the very least, you know, some 77 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 4: kind of subhuman spectacle. So yeah, I mean, I think 78 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 4: it's a mixture of being shocked and also knowing I 79 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 4: shouldn't be shocked at all. 80 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 3: The other part. 81 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 4: Of it is that O'Shea was murdered literally the night 82 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: before I went to see Renaissance World Tour and went 83 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 4: to Beyonce on stage, and so just thinking about the 84 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 4: polarities of this huge celebration of queer and trans contributions 85 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 4: to culture and also this kind of I mean, this 86 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: is the most visible ever ballroom culture has ever been, 87 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 4: at least since you know, Madonna did her thing with Vogue. 88 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 4: But this is different, right, This is a black woman 89 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 4: super star elevating the cis black woman, right, sis straight 90 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 4: black woman. So the polarity between that display and how 91 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 4: outside of that arena and outside of that context, our 92 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 4: lives are still on. 93 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 5: The chopping block. 94 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's it's so interesting because you know, 95 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: when I went to go see Renaissance, and I was 96 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: so all that I kept saying in one aside from 97 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: Beyonce's and her team, the creativity, the artistry, the I mean, 98 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: the videos, the costume changes, like all of that. I 99 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: had never been to a concert that had such an 100 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: extraordinarily diverse and beautiful audience. I had never been to 101 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: a show and I've gone to lots of shows where 102 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: a star at that magnitude, Because you know, the news 103 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: has been talking about, oh, Taylor Swift, this and that. 104 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: When you look at Taylor Swift's audience. It largely looks 105 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift, right when you look at this audience 106 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: that came out to celebrate Renaissance. I mean, it looked 107 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: like a tapestry of the most beautiful, creative, gorgeous aspects 108 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: of the black community, of the queer community, of the 109 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: LATINX community. Like it was just a tapestry. And then 110 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: you know, because I remember sitting there and just being 111 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: just in awe, right, the show that was happening in 112 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: the audience and the show that was happening on stage, 113 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: and to think about the joy like you're saying, and 114 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: the and the spotlights that that album gave to black 115 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: queer culture and for these men to be celebrating it 116 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: right like just outside being themselves and then one of 117 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: them is dead because he was dancing. 118 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: It just it for me. 119 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: It it really it's a stark reminder. And I want 120 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: to talk to you about how you think that the 121 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: politics of the day with regard to what we are 122 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: seeing happening across states like Florida and Texas and alab 123 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: Bama and Tennessee and all of these places that put 124 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: up anti drag policies and criminalizing trans youth and parents 125 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: who care for their trans children, Like, what does that? 126 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: How do you feel like that in combination with politicians 127 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: just openly being anti anti gay, anti trans, anti queer 128 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: and watching their pull numbers rise. 129 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think we are in a crisis 130 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 5: for sure. 131 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 4: I Mean, the truth is, we've been in a crisis 132 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: for so long, decades, generations, right The fight that queer 133 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: and trans people are in right now is just more 134 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 4: visible and vocal, and we're louder and more or at 135 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 4: least stronger in our demands than our community ever has 136 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 4: been before. 137 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: And a lot of. 138 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 4: That is access to each other in new ways, access 139 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 4: to more of our stories, access to information in a 140 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 4: new way, and language to define who we are. But 141 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 4: we've always been here and we've always been fighting. I mean, 142 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 4: some of the earliest records of in particular, people who 143 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 4: would be considered trans today, or at least people who 144 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 4: transcender transcended gender norms, were criminal records, you know, as 145 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 4: early as the eighteen hundreds, right, of people dressing a 146 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 4: different way and moving through the world as a gender 147 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 4: that didn't correspond with what they were assigned at birth. 148 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: So at its essence, transness, gender nonconformity, queerness is not new, right, 149 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 4: it's just a different context today with these politicians and 150 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 4: leader who are sharing this anti queer, anti trans rhetoric 151 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: and these ideologies. 152 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: I mean a lot of. 153 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 4: That is putting faces and names to the crisis that 154 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 4: I think our society. 155 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 5: Is going through in this moment around gender. 156 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 4: Right, and I joke a lot even within the past 157 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 4: week really, but beyond about how you know, there's all 158 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 4: this discussion about queer people and trans people not knowing 159 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 4: who we are. Honey, the straits don't know who the 160 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 4: fuck they are, and the cist people don't know who 161 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 4: they are, and they definitely don't know who they are 162 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 4: when they are no longer the default and no longer 163 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 4: considered normal or you know, the ideal. 164 00:12:58,679 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 5: Of what it means to be. 165 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: We could say an American, we could say a Texan 166 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 4: or a Floridian, or we could just say a human. 167 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: They're having issues with that because all of the things 168 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 4: that you were in doctrinated with around this idea that 169 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 4: if you just played your role right, you did everything 170 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 4: that you were supposed to do. 171 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: As a good little girl, and you dimmed. 172 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 4: Your light and you shied away from leadership and being 173 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 4: too outspoken, and you got married, and you attached yourself 174 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 4: to a man and then fulfilled your reproductive role to 175 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 4: have children at a certain time, and you look a 176 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 4: certain way, and all of these different things that your 177 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 4: life would be okay, I mean. 178 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: The boxes that you just went down, I'm like, and 179 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: then you'll be okay, Like God damn. 180 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 4: And that's just CIS women, right right. You don't even 181 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 4: talk enough about CIS men who are also harmed by 182 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 4: the CIS hetero patriarchy. And so we have men who 183 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 4: are told they're supposed to be strong and be the 184 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: bread winners and be the most important person in the 185 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 4: room and have a house and have a certain amount 186 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: of wealth, and then that's going to fill the gaps 187 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 4: in their inadequacies and in securities. But honey, that's not happening. 188 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 4: And now those folks who don't fulfill those ideals are 189 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 4: enacting that violence on the rest of us because we 190 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 4: hold up a mirror of what's possible when you divorce 191 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 4: yourself from that and actually just define yourself on your 192 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 4: own terms. 193 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: The reason why I think that we are in crisis 194 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: and I don't even know. It's like I don't feel 195 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: like it's let me say it like this, that the 196 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: conservative right, the clan group is in crisis, because I 197 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: think that a lot of people, particularly gen Z, are 198 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: recognizing that this has all been indoctrination, Like you've said, 199 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: that these concepts of gender and binaries have all been 200 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: based on bullshit. And when you dig not even that deep, 201 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: you realize how in how intertwined patriarchy is with capitalism, 202 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: right is entwined with this lie, right of subjugation. And 203 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: what I have long thought about, and I just want 204 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: you to expand on what you said, which is that 205 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: the presence, the powerful presence of trans people moves in 206 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: direct contrast to the lie. And so in order to 207 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: reaffirm the lie that you've been indoctrinated with, you have 208 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: to look at trans people and say no, no, they're 209 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: the lie, when in fact they're the ones that are 210 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: actually living in their truth. 211 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, as you were talking, I'm just thinking 212 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 4: about you know, these attacks are, to your point, from 213 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 4: the white supremacist Christian right, are impacting everyone on the 214 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: margins period. And I wonder if there is this way 215 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 4: in which we maybe it's just the American way to 216 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: always in whatever era, have this large group of folks 217 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 4: that you don't like because they're not subservient to you 218 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 4: in whatever way or or death deferring to you, because 219 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 4: that's no, it's no longer acceptable to demand that of them, 220 00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 4: at least publicly. 221 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: So you can't say you hate black people. 222 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 4: I mean, you would be hard pressed to find even 223 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: the most conservative person. 224 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: Trump is not going to say he hates black people. 225 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: No, he has all these black friends, Black all. 226 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 3: These black friends. 227 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: They're not going to say they can't stand people of color. 228 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 5: Now, They'll say they. 229 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 4: Can't stand immigrants to an extent. And so these some 230 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: of these groups are groups that you just can't say 231 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 4: you hate, but you still enact policies that show that. 232 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 4: When it comes to queer and trans people right now, 233 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 4: and your audience is familiar of course with kind of 234 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 4: the post marriage equality discussions and us becoming the acceptable 235 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 4: threat to our society and to normalcy and in our 236 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 4: ways of living, but trans people and particular are mostly 237 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 4: accepted scapegoat for the. 238 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 5: Ills of America right now. 239 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 4: Yes, in a way that these other groups have been 240 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 4: historically and obviously still are, but they can't say that, 241 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 4: they can say it with us, and I firmly believe 242 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 4: once we get to a point where they can no 243 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: longer say it about us as trans and non binary folks, 244 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 4: they're going to find another group. There will be another 245 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 4: group they emerge that emerges that they're like, Nope, we 246 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 4: can't have them, or it'll just circle back around to 247 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 4: another one. You know, in some ways that it has 248 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 4: circled to it's during the pandemic, we saw it circling 249 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 4: to Asian folks right our Asian communities. We've seen some 250 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 4: of the discussions around Jewish folks and Jewish communities to 251 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 4: an extent. So I mean, I think we've got to 252 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 4: understand these connections that we're all under the bus together 253 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 4: right now, and there's no clawing yourself up to save 254 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: face in the society that doesn't want you to exist. 255 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 5: Toney as a person. 256 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 4: On the margins who was not white, who was not Christian, 257 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 4: who is not assists man, and who was not straight 258 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 4: or at least telling the world they're straight. 259 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: So what do you think needs to be done in 260 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: terms of the messaging around the attacks against particularly trans people, 261 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: but the queer community at large. Because again, we were 262 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: at a place and this is where all of this 263 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: backlash comes from the backlash against black peoples, because God forbid, 264 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: Barack Obama became president of the United States and was 265 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: elected you know twice, right, and then it was just like, oh, 266 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: so we're going to put up our worst white, greedy, 267 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: like misogynist, rapist right to just show you, you know, 268 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: that's how we get Trump. But what is it that 269 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: you think needs to happen in terms of the messaging 270 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: of the they come for one of us, they will 271 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: come for all of us. Because what you're saying is 272 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: absolutely right, Like we are all under the bus together 273 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: right now. Because if you don't have or check any 274 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: of those boxes that you named Christian male sis, you know, 275 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: white like, you are not a part of their America. 276 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: And not only are you not a part of it, 277 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: they want to make sure that you are as miserable, 278 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: as oppressed, as a shamed, you know, as possible. And 279 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: so if there are seventy percent of us who actually 280 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: do not think and subscribe to their archaic cruel ways, 281 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: what messaging do we have to have when we see 282 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: the these types of policies pop up and pass in 283 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: these states. 284 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. 285 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 5: I mean, I think the other thing. 286 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 4: I'll add to that as well is is and if 287 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: you're not wealthy, or at least don't have the potential 288 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 4: to become wealthy, or don't have the signifiers to say 289 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 4: that you are a wealthy that's also a thing. And 290 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: I think, you know, the left has got to figure 291 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 4: out how we actually build you know what Jesse Jackson 292 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 4: was calling a rainbow coalition in a real way. You know, 293 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 4: we can't have any more of these white leftist leaders 294 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 4: who are like, if we worry about anything else besides class, 295 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 4: that's identity politics. 296 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 3: Fuck out of here. 297 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 4: It's all identity politics. You have an identity. It is 298 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 4: your privilege that allows you to act as if you 299 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 4: don't have an identity. So you got to you gotta 300 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 4: figure that shit out too. So that aside, I think 301 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 4: what has to happen. I mean a lot of it 302 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 4: is political education. I mean a lot of it is 303 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 4: us educating ourselves about our position in the world, because 304 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 4: I truly believe if you aren't starting that journey, or 305 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 4: haven't started that journey, you're not as effective or useful 306 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 4: to the collective as you could be. If you really 307 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 4: believe that the world needs to be different, and some 308 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 4: people do believe that, but also are so traumatized, so oppressed, 309 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: and so deep in their oppression that they're like, I 310 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 4: just got to get mine and survive. But we got 311 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 4: to figure out how to move out of that, because 312 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 4: that's also a doctrination. You're supposed to feel that way, 313 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 4: so that nothing actually changes even for you. So we've 314 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 4: got to figure out those spaces where we can build coalition. 315 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 4: So for me, as someone known as a transactivist, though 316 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 4: I'm so much more. 317 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: You know, I'm a black woman. 318 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 5: I'm from the South, you know, all of these. 319 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: Different things, and. 320 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 4: For me it's about Okay, well my lens is not 321 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 4: just transliberation, but it's actually a gender liberation lens. 322 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 5: And so I'm interested in how we can. 323 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 4: Talk to the CIS women in many of these reproductive 324 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 4: justice spaces, who, many of them know better than to 325 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 4: be pushing this idea that only women are impacted by 326 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 4: these restrictions around bodily autonomy. We know that everyone is impacted, 327 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 4: but we also know that there are transmn and trans 328 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 4: masculine folks and non binary folks who need to be 329 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 4: at the of your organizing as well. 330 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, So can we move to. 331 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 3: A gender liberation lens and actually do that. 332 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 4: You know, I've worked at a non philanthropy that is 333 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 4: a feminist philanthropic organization. 334 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 5: That says it's for women. 335 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 4: That's too limited of a lens, and they know who 336 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 4: they are and they are unnotice right. You know, it's yes, 337 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 4: move the funding to trans led groups, but also your 338 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: whole entire framework. You are called in this fight for 339 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 4: collective liberation to be radically transformed. And so when you 340 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 4: know better, no matter how difficult it may be to 341 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 4: talk to certain segments of the folks that you are 342 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 4: in community with, you got to do that work, or 343 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 4: at least start doing that work, honey. 344 00:24:58,920 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: So that is a thing. 345 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, But so I want to add one more thing 346 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 5: to you. 347 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, please go ahead, because the. 348 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 4: Other piece of it, and this is more so that 349 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 4: was an feminist frame. 350 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 5: So thinking more within a black liberation. 351 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 4: Frame, we have to start fucking talking about patriarchal violence. 352 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 4: It is long overdue for us to be having conversations 353 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 4: that go beyond how the state is killing black people. 354 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 4: Patriarchy is killing people within the black community. And if 355 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 4: it isn't killing folks, it's trying to. So when I 356 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 4: think about what happened to Oshay. Obviously that was someone 357 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 4: the young teenager, and we're going to circle back around. Yeah, 358 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 4: who committed that act of violence and murder has a 359 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 4: more different identity than maybe you know someone who is black. 360 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. 361 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 5: I only know that they are Muslim. 362 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 4: But the fact that this black, young gay man was 363 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 4: seen as such a threat that he should be exterminating 364 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 4: is tied to how black folks are experiencing violence under 365 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 4: the government of the United States and law enforcement. And 366 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 4: it's tied to if we want to go into pop culture, 367 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 4: all the people who are still even after all the 368 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 4: evidence is. 369 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 6: Out, people who are out here still caping for fucking 370 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 6: Tory Lanes after he shot Meg the Stallion. 371 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 4: That is fucking patriarchal violence, and it is violence to 372 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 4: want him to not be held accountable. 373 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, I'm so glad that you brought 374 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: that up, because I had been going back in the 375 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: comments section on the Shade Room on Instagram because and 376 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: bless my heart, I don't know why I felt like 377 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: I had time today, but but I was just so 378 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: I was so disgusted and also disheartened with black women 379 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: saying that they are deleting Meg the Stallion's songs and 380 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: albums from their you know, from their platforms because you know, 381 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: she shouldn't have she shouldn't have taken this quote unquote 382 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: brother down right like and I'm saying to myself, this 383 00:27:54,080 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: man shot her and through the grace of God, like, 384 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: she's not dead. And I'm like, so do we then 385 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: only would we have mourned her or would it have 386 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: just we would have just moved on and said the 387 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: Tory le he just had a bad day, right, Like 388 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: it is just it's it's like so long. And I 389 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: understand it. I get this idea that the state has 390 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: been constructed to oppress black men to whether it is 391 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: incarceraate murder, police killings, white vigilantes, so on and so 392 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: forth right, and that there is a protection, but that 393 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: protection should be for INITs it black men, what I think, 394 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: not ones who wage violence and have been using language 395 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: and their platform to continue threatening this person. And so 396 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: when you say, look, we need to abandon this idea 397 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: of patriarchy, we need to have this gender liberal on 398 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: top of black liberation, that story is like is the 399 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: picture of that that I just don't, I mean, I 400 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: just I don't. 401 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: I don't get it. 402 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: But it's the same thing that happened after you know, 403 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: R Kelly, why did it take fifty some like so 404 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: many women? Bill Cosby, why did it take so many women? 405 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're just trying to bring down our 406 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: star Chris Brown, who was never held accountable for his 407 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: abuse of Rihanna, right, Like, so it is just it. 408 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: I guess my last question for you is is what 409 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: to say? I know it's like because I could go 410 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 1: on and on it's so much, but it's just like 411 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: when you think about liberation and all of the layered 412 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: liberation that we're talking about, gender liberation, black liberation, right, 413 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: what is the beginning of that work. 414 00:29:59,280 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: Look like. 415 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: That people can actually sink their teeth into or take 416 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: a step towards this ocean of work that needs to 417 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: be done. 418 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I love the way you frame it. 419 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 4: It's like this liberation on top of liberation, and you know, 420 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 4: and I think, and you know, I guess I feel 421 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 4: comfortable saying this in contact with you as well, just. 422 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 3: Because we know each other and everything, But I don't. 423 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 4: Actually think that they are different liberations. Yeah, you know, there, 424 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 4: it's all the same. When I think about black liberation. 425 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 4: Black people within a white supremacist society are inherently gender 426 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 4: non conforming. It's cute to think that only the queer 427 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 4: and trans folks are, you know, like we're abandoning these 428 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 4: gender norms and ideals. But honey, you've never and especially 429 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 4: within the United States, you. 430 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 3: Have never been a man. 431 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 4: Black men as a man never been a man in 432 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 4: the way that white men has been. And black women 433 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: have never and will never be women in the way 434 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 4: that white women are under this frame. 435 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 5: And the sooner that we. 436 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 4: Can realize that, the better it will be for all 437 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 4: of us, because when people see black trans folks living 438 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 4: openly and being vocal within the black community, they see 439 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 4: us as. 440 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 5: The holes within. 441 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: The life raft, oh damnel. 442 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 4: But gender under a white supremacist frame work is not 443 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 4: like that life raft was never going to keep you afloat, honey, 444 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 4: it's actually not even there. You're actually really just in 445 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 4: the water with the rest of us. So, I mean, 446 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 4: that is so important to me, and I understand I 447 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 4: think so much about what. 448 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 5: Black men, I mean, really all of us. 449 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 4: Are dealing with is trying to figure out how we 450 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 4: can live the most comfortable lives possible, how we can 451 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 4: feel empowered, how we can feel heard, how we can 452 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 4: take care of ourselves and. 453 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 5: Not be reliant on anyone else. 454 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: I think that that is something that binds all of 455 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 4: us together. Yeah, but within the black community, since we're 456 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 4: in that, we're ending in that frame. I need black 457 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 4: men to figure out that hurt and that trauma, to 458 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 4: realize that whatever issues you think you have with the 459 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 4: women around you and the queer and trans folks around you. 460 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 3: It's actually not us. 461 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 4: It's actually by design that you would see us as 462 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 4: competitors for validation within a white supremacist society. And the 463 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 4: same thing for black sis women who want to say 464 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 4: that black trans women are stealing womanhood from them. Baby, 465 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 4: I'm not trying to steal nothing from you because what 466 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 4: I have is already mine. We'll take it back to 467 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 4: the word, you know, because I grew up Catholic, Honey, 468 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: I grew up in the church too. What is mine 469 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 4: is already mine. So I'm not demanding my womanhood from you. 470 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 4: That just is and your womanhood just is, you know. So, 471 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 4: I mean, I think this a lot of it is 472 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 4: us taking stock of where we are as individuals within 473 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 4: the society. 474 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 5: It means also. 475 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 4: Just learning and being curious about the world, right, even 476 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 4: when it scares you. 477 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 3: You don't have to read. 478 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 4: You don't necessarily like I would advise it, read some 479 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 4: Bell Hooks and Patricia Hill Collins and Combined he River 480 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 4: Collective and so many other folks as well. 481 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 5: And if you. 482 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 4: Can't do that, listen to each other and without trying 483 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 4: to get a word in to discount what the other 484 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 4: person is saying, at least hear us out. So I 485 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 4: think that's it. I think it's getting involved in community. 486 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 4: We got to get back into that. You know, we've 487 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 4: talked so much in general about the loss of third spaces, right, 488 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 4: these spaces where people find community outside of you know, 489 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 4: the Internet and social media and the workplace, et cetera. Well, 490 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 4: we got to do that. 491 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 5: We don't necessarily have. 492 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 4: You know, the gathering spot for a lot of people 493 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 4: isn't still churches and places of worship necessarily, but there 494 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 4: are other spaces. Do build something at the community center. 495 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 4: If you want to see black men doing better, build 496 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 4: those spaces so that they can they can inhabit a 497 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 4: healthier masculinity, but root it in something empathetic and authentic 498 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 4: and vulnerable. 499 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 5: You know, so that I know there's no like cute 500 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 5: call to action. 501 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: No, but I mean to me, in all of the 502 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: wonderful pieces of the advice that you just laid out, 503 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: the first piece is really unpacking where you are, right 504 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: because the more that you can understand yourself, understand how 505 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: and where and for how long you've been indoctrinated to 506 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: understand certain positions and quote unquote norms and expectations. And 507 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: once you start to really unpack that for yourself, then 508 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: you can move and do steps too through you know, 509 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: two million, right, But the first step is really understanding 510 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: like who are you in this moment right now? 511 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: Who have you been? And who do you want to be? 512 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 513 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: And moving from there? 514 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? 515 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 4: And I mean, look, if you if you are so curious, 516 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 4: since people claim to be so curious about the trans 517 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 4: experiences right now, especially after Miss Hilarious Shoha and tin 518 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 4: ass online and everything else, read stories by trans people, 519 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 4: elevate trans folks. I have a memoir coming out in 520 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 4: November if you want to hear about my story as 521 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 4: a black trans woman who grew up in a Catholic 522 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 4: upbringing traditional in the South, and how I navigated that 523 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 4: and also navigated a career media and social justice. Then 524 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 4: pre order The Risk it Takes to Bloom on Life 525 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 4: and Liberation from Saint Martin's Press. 526 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 3: I have a book. We have a bunch of. 527 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 5: Other authors in our community right now. 528 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 4: We've got film directors, black trans women directing films like 529 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 4: The Stroll and Coocomo City, you know, and we have musicians. 530 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 4: We got Honey Dejohn who worked on the Renaissance album 531 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 4: right ts Madison was quoted in it. She has her 532 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 4: own shows as well as I can't say the next part, 533 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 4: but you'll be hearing more froms Madison, so you know, 534 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 4: if you want to hear from the source, which I 535 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 4: always advise right seek out the source. 536 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and friend, when your book comes out, please make 537 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: WKF one of the stops on your road tour because 538 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: we would definitely love to dig into that. As always, 539 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: Raquel Willis, It is such a time and I appreciate 540 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: you so much, Thank you. 541 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 5: Thank you. 542 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke 543 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: a F as always, Power to the people and to 544 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: all the people. 545 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 2: Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.