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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyon. In this episode number two D

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Speaker 1: and today in the show, I'm joined by freelance writer

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Speaker 1: and whitetail hunter Pat Durkin to get back to the

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Speaker 1: basics of white tail deer and how they see, here, smell,

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Speaker 1: and survive. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought

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Speaker 1: to you by on X, and today in the show,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Pat Durkin, who is an outdoor writer

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Speaker 1: and avid deer hunter, and I want to have him

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Speaker 1: on the show to discuss dear themselves, not just you know,

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Speaker 1: all the fancy strategies to chase him and the gear

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Speaker 1: to help us kill them, but actually just talk about

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Speaker 1: these animals and how they do what they do. And

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Speaker 1: I thought Pat would be the perfect guy to do

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Speaker 1: this because he's an actual journalist. He doesn't just whip

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Speaker 1: up an article based off of his own crazy ideas

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Speaker 1: like I do. Sometimes. He actually meticulously researches his topics

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Speaker 1: and he consults multiple experts and then reports back on

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Speaker 1: what the science says or what the real data says,

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Speaker 1: and when that has come a fascinating insight into what

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Speaker 1: makes white tailed deer tick. So that's what we're chatting

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Speaker 1: with Pat about today, all that he's learned over the

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Speaker 1: years about deer as he's researched and study these creatures,

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Speaker 1: stuff like how they see and how they smell, and

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Speaker 1: how they hear and lots lots more. So with no

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Speaker 1: introduction today, we're just gonna get right into it. So

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Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to think a couple of partners,

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Speaker 1: and then we will get chatting with Pat. All Right,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to have on the line with me today,

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Speaker 1: Pat Durkin. Welcome the show. Pat, he Mark, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me. I really really appreciate it. It's been fun

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Speaker 1: over the last a year or two to get to

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Speaker 1: chat every once in a while as you're working on

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Speaker 1: different articles and things and with your involvement with Mediator now,

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Speaker 1: but this will be our first chance to do an

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Speaker 1: extended long conversation, So thank you for doing this. Well,

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Speaker 1: you bet I was looking forward to for the last

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Yeah, me too, And I guess what

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Speaker 1: brought you to mind for me? As someone who I

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Speaker 1: thought we should have a chat with. Is that so

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Speaker 1: often when you look out there in today's hunting media,

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Speaker 1: or even listen to podcasts or even sometimes this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we get so hyper excited about the latest and greatest strategy,

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Speaker 1: some new trick, some new trend, whatever it might be. Um.

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Speaker 1: But when I go and I look at so many

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Speaker 1: of your recent things that you're writing and focusing on now,

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Speaker 1: you do a great job of bringing things back to

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Speaker 1: what really matters the most, which is the animal itself

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Speaker 1: and research about the animal. And I don't know, you

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Speaker 1: just have this extremely deep well of information and experience

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Speaker 1: with dear, giving your background, and then you do such

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Speaker 1: an inter in jab of talking to other people that

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Speaker 1: researched dear that you just get these perspectives that I

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Speaker 1: think are really really helpful. Um. So I kind of

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Speaker 1: want to talk about a lot of things related to that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into Dear, I do want to

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Speaker 1: make sure we lay a little bit of groundwork for

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Speaker 1: people who maybe aren't familiar with you, which is which

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Speaker 1: would be shocking if they're not. But if they are

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Speaker 1: new to Pat Dirkin, can you give us the cliff

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Speaker 1: notes on kind of how you got to this point,

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Speaker 1: what you've done in the dear world and what you're

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Speaker 1: doing now. Yeah, the thing i'd say too is I've

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Speaker 1: never um, I've never hurt or whatever insults of people

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Speaker 1: haven't heard of me. Because the one thing I've I've

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Speaker 1: always knowing about writing reporting is that most people don't

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Speaker 1: read by lines. And this goes back to my days

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Speaker 1: I started that. I started at the Ashcosh Northwestern newspaper

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Speaker 1: in east central Wisconsin back in still work UM in college,

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Speaker 1: and I always remember the first thing I wrote for

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Speaker 1: the college newspaper back then, UM was a column about UM.

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Speaker 1: I think it's about hunting or fishing. I can't even

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Speaker 1: remember anymore. But anyway, the thing I remember about Mark

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Speaker 1: is that when I went to I was all proud

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Speaker 1: and happy about getting my first piece of UM writing published.

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Speaker 1: But then I went to UM. When I went to

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Speaker 1: back to the newspaper office that next day, I remember

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Speaker 1: seeing something. I'd used the newspaper as a door jam

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Speaker 1: to keep the door from from bossing behind them, and

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Speaker 1: it was just discincidentally. They punched, you know, a little

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Speaker 1: door um nob part sticks and a little clasp sticks

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Speaker 1: into the door right at that point where my face

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Speaker 1: was it was punched right through and I always kept

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Speaker 1: that in mind that will have many uses for newspapers.

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Speaker 1: And you're you're quickly forgotten, then you're often overlooked, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not I'm not heard at all when people

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Speaker 1: say I never heard of you until this, so that

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Speaker 1: you know, and even today, I read a lot stuff

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Speaker 1: and they'll um they I've had people quite often tell

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Speaker 1: me I was reading this article or a Danis Stirt

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Speaker 1: describing the article, and I'll say, yeah, I wrote that.

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Speaker 1: And it's happened so often my career where you just

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Speaker 1: cannot have um. It keeps you humble, it keeps you know.

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Speaker 1: I realized there's many people out there who have much

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Speaker 1: higher profiles than I do, and I just don't worry

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Speaker 1: about too much but to finish my little bio real quickly.

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Speaker 1: I worked in the Oscarsh newspaper for eight years, and

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Speaker 1: I was mainly UM. I did all sorts of jobs.

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Speaker 1: I covered school boards that covered high school sports and

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Speaker 1: and my whole um thing though, was that I always

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Speaker 1: wanted to get into the outdoors beat. So the reason

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Speaker 1: I was in sports for the for the first couple

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Speaker 1: of years is because sports editors in those days always

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Speaker 1: controlled the outdoors page and most newspapers, you know, thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago, forty years ago, I had at least the

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Speaker 1: outdoor page once a week, and I always realized that

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Speaker 1: I'm well off when I get on that page and

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Speaker 1: right right for that paper, I need to learn learn

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Speaker 1: the sports up of his name, or work with him.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of how I got going on, and

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Speaker 1: then eventually I did. There are things in the newspaper.

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Speaker 1: I was always doing the outdoors, but I also did

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Speaker 1: things like on the school board. I also covered city

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Speaker 1: hall a little bit and the police and um fire

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Speaker 1: type of things. You go out and have to cover

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Speaker 1: a spot news, so it's really a good background for reporting.

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Speaker 1: And then um along the way when my um little breakthroughs,

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Speaker 1: I guess was I learned that one of the best

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Speaker 1: sources for conservation information in our region was a guy

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Speaker 1: named A Whole Factor And l um was the editor

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Speaker 1: of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine that the original one

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Speaker 1: of the original fhowners of it. He and Jack Brower

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Speaker 1: founded the magazine back in the late seventies and it

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Speaker 1: was just up the road in Appleton, Wisconsin. And by

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Speaker 1: the time I came around in the newspaper. These guys

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Speaker 1: had Deer and Deeringing Magazine rolling as a nash some magazine,

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Speaker 1: and so I would interview Al on various conservation issues

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Speaker 1: going out in the area because he was always a

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Speaker 1: real good citizen, always involved in things. And eventually they

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Speaker 1: must have been reading my stuff and how I covered

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Speaker 1: um the issues that the Al was involved in, because

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Speaker 1: they brought me up one time for an interview and

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Speaker 1: about the like in late and then I started working

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Speaker 1: for them two or three weeks later, and that got

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Speaker 1: me into the end of the hunting industry basically. And

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Speaker 1: so I worked at Deer and Deeringing Magazine for eleven years.

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Speaker 1: I was this editor for most of that time, and

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Speaker 1: along the way, one great you know, one thing I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what the time mark, which I always looked

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Speaker 1: back on was. The last fascination was that I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize that. But each time I was taking these jobs,

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Speaker 1: first newspapers, then a magazines, I was kind of writing

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Speaker 1: the tail end of a big deal. Newspapers were still

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Speaker 1: really strong going into the eighties, and by the end

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Speaker 1: of the eighties there was and the towel off and

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Speaker 1: the magazines we're kind of in the same thing during

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Speaker 1: the nineties, you know, we're our magazine circulation peaked in

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Speaker 1: about and by the time I left in two thousand one,

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Speaker 1: it was it was it went out a city downcolle

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Speaker 1: klient tomorrow. How hard I worked, how much effort I

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Speaker 1: put into it, things were sliding. And by the time

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Speaker 1: I left in two thousand and one, the Internet was

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Speaker 1: starting to come along and people were spending more time

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Speaker 1: doing online stuff and even things that as basic as

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Speaker 1: email news others were getting We're getting a little popularity.

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Speaker 1: So all on the way I UM, I was kind

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Speaker 1: of without realizing and jumping one one step ahead of

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Speaker 1: the um the downward curve. So that time I got

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Speaker 1: in the freelancing, you know, like about twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was UM. I was pretty well situated to do

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Speaker 1: freelance work. I had a lot of contacts and new

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Speaker 1: people in the academic world that we're doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of deer research, and so that that realized served me

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Speaker 1: while when I started freelancing. That's what I've been doing

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Speaker 1: now for since since two thousand one, late two thousand one,

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Speaker 1: and I saw I do a lot of work for

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Speaker 1: the archery trade Association. Still I'm kind of their chief

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Speaker 1: chief copy ofitor, and I still write my weekly newspaper column.

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Speaker 1: And I have been writing for me either not the

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Speaker 1: last year and a half, and I write regular articles

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Speaker 1: for American Hunter magazine, and so I stayed really busy.

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Speaker 1: So you've been writing about or reporting on deer and

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Speaker 1: hunting related topics for what would you say, thirty years

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Speaker 1: more than that? Yeah, yeah, you know, I've been. I've been.

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Speaker 1: I think one of my first articles in the outdoors

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Speaker 1: is a fishing article on some local tournament guy, and

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Speaker 1: then after that. UM. One thing, one thing I always

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Speaker 1: I always looked back down with a lot of pride,

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Speaker 1: is that even though I was an outdoor reporter and

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Speaker 1: doing things from everything from fishing reports to you weekly

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Speaker 1: fishing reports to um or just covering conservation meetings, the

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Speaker 1: thing that I always took time for I'd take the

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Speaker 1: Asian four every year was deer hunting up from the

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Speaker 1: Upper Peninsula, Michigan, which is three and a half hour

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Speaker 1: drive from from where I've lived, you know, in central

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin now for how many years, And so that was

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Speaker 1: a big part of my um AH. When I took

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Speaker 1: vacation during my UM um newspaper days. Almost I spent

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Speaker 1: at least a week up in up in the up

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Speaker 1: Um guns during the gun season, which way was opened

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Speaker 1: November November, and so that was really a cool thing

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Speaker 1: to do, just and it kind of got me um

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Speaker 1: interested in something that one thing I should say, mark,

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Speaker 1: because one thing I always fascinated me about about deer

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Speaker 1: hunting was always the people's side of it. I always

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Speaker 1: loved things like the deer camp stories, the things that

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Speaker 1: kind of brought people together and got them hunting. And

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Speaker 1: I always I was enjoyed reading about a long time

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Speaker 1: ago deer hunters and um the most influential book for

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Speaker 1: me growing up. As you know, when I first started hunting,

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Speaker 1: I was about fourteen. UM, I always remember reading Larry

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Speaker 1: Colder's book Shots at White Tails, and it's been a

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Speaker 1: book I've kept in my library ever since then. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just to me, it's fun to kind

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Speaker 1: of go back and read because every now and then,

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Speaker 1: because it wasn't um, they weren't doing things like hunting scrapes,

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Speaker 1: they weren't worrying about rub blinds, all these things that

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Speaker 1: um we've kind of um taken into taken into a

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Speaker 1: big part of our strategy sessions. They did drives and

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Speaker 1: they did I'm still hunting and stand hunting. That was

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Speaker 1: a budget, you know, and so that that's kind of

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Speaker 1: my history. I just um, I love all that. All that.

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Speaker 1: Um it gets that the researchers called human dimensions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is fascinating stuff. On the on the on the

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Speaker 1: topic of books, are there any other of those classic

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Speaker 1: books that you still point to? Is something you recommend

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Speaker 1: to folks so that you like to grab off your

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Speaker 1: shelf ever once in a while and look at um

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Speaker 1: I remember finding I was up at my family deer

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Speaker 1: camp this I guess it would have been earlier this spring.

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Speaker 1: At the bottom of a stack on beneath the table

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Speaker 1: was one of the one of the original books from

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Speaker 1: the I never know if it's Benoit's or Benewit Brothers,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's How to Bagage and it was

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Speaker 1: it was really old and falling apart. I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is this is pretty cool. It's like thirty years

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Speaker 1: old and this is what my grandpa was reading when

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Speaker 1: I was a baby. Um Yeah, that was kind of

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Speaker 1: neat to see. Are there any books like that that

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Speaker 1: you still look at? And that one yeah, that one.

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Speaker 1: There is really a classic in the literally Benoit's book

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Speaker 1: Um I I still have my copy from I think

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Speaker 1: it was part of the At book club back in

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Speaker 1: the seventies, that probably mid seventies, late stefenties. And one

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Speaker 1: of the one of the cool things about working at

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Speaker 1: Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine during the nineties was um

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Speaker 1: they had a book division at the at the publishing hall.

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Speaker 1: UM then owned Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine, So I

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Speaker 1: was able to bring back and kind of update a

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Speaker 1: little bit UM like Shots at White Tells You did

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Speaker 1: their own edition of Shots at White Tails, and and

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Speaker 1: we also we tried to get permission from the from

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Speaker 1: Larry Benoit to redo his his original book, Um you

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Speaker 1: know that how to Get the Biggest Buck of Your

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Speaker 1: Life whatever was called, Yeah, how to Bag the Biggest

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Speaker 1: Buck of your Life, I think with the title, and

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Speaker 1: it's just a real straightforward um book about his his

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Speaker 1: still hunting and how his family would go out and

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Speaker 1: get on a track and basically stalk, you know, deer

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Speaker 1: based on what I saw the foot the footprint, and

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Speaker 1: it was one of those unfortunate things where um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're we wanted to reprint the book, but then there's

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Speaker 1: just too much, too many, too many obligations and too

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Speaker 1: many um past differences between Larry and the co author

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Speaker 1: of the time, and we just couldn't make it work.

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Speaker 1: But then we came up with an alternative. We're a

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Speaker 1: writer named Bryce Tolesy spent some time with them, Larry

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Speaker 1: and his family, and did I think I think they

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Speaker 1: did one or two more books. I think with the

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Speaker 1: Benoit's during the nine nineties, really two thousands, So in fact,

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Speaker 1: I um during that process, I sent my copy of

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Speaker 1: the original book to Larry and asked him to sign

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Speaker 1: it for me, and and it was it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a curious thing he wrote back to me, sent the

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Speaker 1: book back and nice little wrote a nice little tribute

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Speaker 1: to me. And then uh, they said something like, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry you couldn't take time to um stop by and

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Speaker 1: visit when you're in Vermont last week or that last summer.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know who he confused me with, but

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Speaker 1: I've never been to very much in my life. So

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Speaker 1: it's one of those fun things you you you you

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Speaker 1: know that happened to you once a while, were someone

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Speaker 1: uh for a reason confusedly with someone else, and so

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Speaker 1: I have that inscription on my Larry A White book.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, speaking of then these these classic books, these

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Speaker 1: classic resources of Sony people looked on, UM, I do

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Speaker 1: feel like you have now gotten your own fingerprints on

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Speaker 1: many of the resources and things that people are now

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Speaker 1: looking back on UM that aren't that old at all

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Speaker 1: or even new now to get this new foundation with

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Speaker 1: people today, I think new hunters that are trying to

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Speaker 1: learn about deer and deer hunting, if they're turning the

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Speaker 1: Mediator right now, for example, or many other places that

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Speaker 1: your written works are at, UM, you know they're seeing

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Speaker 1: some really good foundational, dear related content that I've really

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Speaker 1: loved from you. You've done a handful of pieces now, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course you've done a handful pieces now kind of

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Speaker 1: examining white tail one oh one, kind of biology, some

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Speaker 1: about the senses of deer, and I want to kind

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Speaker 1: of start there, because we very rarely ever talked about

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Speaker 1: that anymore. It's always like, how to find the best

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Speaker 1: pinch port, how can you track you know, trail camera

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Speaker 1: data and find patterns and so on and so forth.

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Speaker 1: We never rewind back to the beginning and start talking

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Speaker 1: about what can these dear smell? What can they see?

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Speaker 1: What should we be thinking about? Um, So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of where I want to start. Pat, Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the deer's senses. You asked me this question a couple

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Speaker 1: of months ago, and I want to get right back

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Speaker 1: to you, which is, how would you rank a deer's

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Speaker 1: senses from most important or most beneficial to them down

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Speaker 1: to the bottom. Well, I should say, um, and I

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Speaker 1: mean that's real, sincerely, Mark, is the one thing I've

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Speaker 1: liked about um my career. The things that I find

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Speaker 1: interesting is that I've one thing I've learned along the way,

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Speaker 1: and I really learned it really quickly, was that I

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Speaker 1: might I love deer hunting and I love fishing, but

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Speaker 1: but I've realized quickly that, um, there's some guys out

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Speaker 1: there who always refer to them as the Brett Fires

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Speaker 1: and Michael Jordan's of deer hunting, and the guys who

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Speaker 1: really are good at it. I mean they might not

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Speaker 1: be able to tell you what tree, what kind of

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Speaker 1: tree species? There? Their stand is located them, but damn

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Speaker 1: they know how to hunt. They just there. I would

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Speaker 1: say they're predators, They're they're guys that really lock onto

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Speaker 1: stuff and they sense stuff and they can't even put

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Speaker 1: it in the words sometimes. I mean, I've seen many

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Speaker 1: examples of that. You asked them questions about, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: what are you seeing or what are you looking at here?

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Speaker 1: What made you sit in that tree? And they struggle

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Speaker 1: to explain it. It's it's really interesting. So I guess,

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Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is I've always I've never

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Speaker 1: considered myself the expert. I was considered myself the guy

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Speaker 1: who can talk to experts and kind interpret stuff and

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Speaker 1: read research. I mean, I've always liked, and this is

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Speaker 1: I think an odd thing. I've always liked standing in

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Speaker 1: conferences where these UM graduate students and deer researchers present

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Speaker 1: their findings, and then interviewing them afterward and asked them

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Speaker 1: questions about things I didn't understand, because I just find

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Speaker 1: it interesting the things they can they can learn about

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Speaker 1: white tales, you know, scientifically. But then I also realize

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Speaker 1: there's some things about deer that will never fully understand.

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Speaker 1: Because the thing I talked about, and I think a

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Speaker 1: couple of different articles I wrote for Meat Eater, is

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Speaker 1: that like when it comes to this UM the sense

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons I call you's got because I

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Speaker 1: I really, I really, over time realized that Mark Kenyon

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Speaker 1: is a real nice, real nice hard hard and hardcore

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Speaker 1: practical way of deer hunting. Word. He doesn't read too

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Speaker 1: much into things that he can't really nailed down. But boy,

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Speaker 1: he's he's um. He knows, he knows his strength to

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Speaker 1: weaknesses and how to apply them. And I always find

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Speaker 1: that's really important to get the best deer. And there's

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Speaker 1: typically know how to um put stuff, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the use out there in the woods. So but to

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Speaker 1: answer your question, I've been um stumbling around here with that.

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Speaker 1: But to answer your question, I am one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons I called you on that recent one one about

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Speaker 1: um interpreting you know, what what deer, what deer can smell,

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Speaker 1: and how how well they hear, how well they see.

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Speaker 1: I ask you these kind of questions. I like to

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Speaker 1: hear what you think and the and we talked us

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Speaker 1: recently about how well did your here and where do

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Speaker 1: you rank that? And when you said that you rank

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Speaker 1: you know they're able. Their ability to smell is number one,

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Speaker 1: I thought, I I can buy that. I I've seen

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Speaker 1: it too many times where deer can just pick off

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Speaker 1: a little bit of scent when you when you think,

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Speaker 1: how the heck could they have smelled that? And even

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Speaker 1: her here hunters talking about well do they have a

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Speaker 1: six stent? Because there's no way they could have smelled me.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that I find fascinating about there's no way.

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Speaker 1: When people say there's no way they could have done

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Speaker 1: this or that, I think you're really not not really

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Speaker 1: taking an account to many things that can go awry

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Speaker 1: in the deer woods. You know, the way that a

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Speaker 1: scent can swirl around and move in a direction that

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Speaker 1: you don't expect you just because the winds blowing in

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Speaker 1: your face at the at the in the tree stand

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Speaker 1: you're in, doesn't mean that thirty yards down the hill,

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Speaker 1: it's it's catching a little eddy and swirling back up

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Speaker 1: in a way that they can pick up this a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a scent off off you. And and

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Speaker 1: and actually, um, I mean i'd be able to pinpoint you,

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Speaker 1: but get pretty close to knowing whatever it was, this

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Speaker 1: isn't good. And they start getting they started getting spooky.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I I agree to when you when you

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Speaker 1: I don't and and try, I think you'd probably figured

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Speaker 1: out from my interviews. I don't try to steer you

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Speaker 1: into what I think. I want to hear what you think.

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Speaker 1: And so when you said that, I thought, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of way I think too, that number one is the

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Speaker 1: cent And and then there I look at you made

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Speaker 1: a stird point that I just loved was set and

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Speaker 1: from there, if they see something and they hear something,

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Speaker 1: the first thing they're gonna try to do is verify

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Speaker 1: with their nose. If they can do it, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: verify with their nose. And I thought, yeah, I've seen

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Speaker 1: that too many times to not agree with that. So

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Speaker 1: that's where I guess, and I agree on that pretty

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Speaker 1: wholeheartedly that it's number one. And then that probably i'd say, Um,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you for certain if was sight or hearing,

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Speaker 1: because I've been bustets many times by bolt and but

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Speaker 1: the one that one that that, UM, I am just

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Speaker 1: fascinated by. How U with the hearing the way that

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Speaker 1: I've always loved watching deer's ears, the way they turn,

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Speaker 1: and I remember that was probably the first thing I

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Speaker 1: saw a deer at close range when I was like

401
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Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen years old, hunting from a tree for the

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Speaker 1: first time and looking down a deer and watching an approach.

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Speaker 1: That's one thing I noticed was those ears were just

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Speaker 1: constantly moving, constantly checking things out. So I guess I

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Speaker 1: kind of leaned towards the ears as being number two.

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Speaker 1: But I then again, they're so good at detecting movement

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Speaker 1: that I don't I don't discountact either. Yeah. Yeah, they

408
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Speaker 1: certainly have got a heck of a package of tools

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Speaker 1: to survive. Between those three centses, there's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's focus on smelling first, on their sense of

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Speaker 1: scent um. I know you've done a lot of research

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Speaker 1: and not necessary research, but read about a lot of

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Speaker 1: research and also been out there in the field and

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Speaker 1: seeing a lot of things that I'm sure I have

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Speaker 1: indicated to you that they have an incredible sense of smell.

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Speaker 1: But does anything stand out as you've talked to different

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Speaker 1: experts about their sense of smell or different researchers, anything

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Speaker 1: that stands out to you that helps kind of communicate

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Speaker 1: just how unique their sense of smell is or how

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Speaker 1: they smell. I mean, it's one thing to say they

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Speaker 1: can smell really good. It's another thing to quantify that

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Speaker 1: in some way or to help us try to understand

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Speaker 1: that what stood out to you, um when you've examined them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The guy I almost always interview at some point on

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Speaker 1: these two kind of topics topics is on Grant Woods, Assouri. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I know you've had Grant on your on your podcast.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I've I really value greatly is my

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Speaker 1: own credibility. I mean, I I don't go off and

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Speaker 1: I really make an effort to quote people um accurately.

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Speaker 1: And I've taken up, I screw up, I admit it,

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Speaker 1: and I find a way to um correct that. But

432
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: one of the guys I've always respected because he's just

433
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: a role again, down to earth guy who understands this

434
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: stuff and reads it more about and you know, Grant

435
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: not only comprehensive, better, he remembers the details. I tend

436
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: to forget all the otle finor finer details, but Grant doesn't.

437
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: But Grant made a great comment to me for this

438
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: recent Mediator article where he he said, um, something the

439
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: effect the deer can specify the age, the amount, and

440
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: the origins of each each meat, vegetable seasoning. If you

441
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: get a cast role dish. He made this great point

442
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: where he said, you have a cast role just cooking

443
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: up there in your kitchen, and you can you'll you'll

444
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: take a whiff and go my mom's making cast role

445
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: or my wife's making cast role, Whereas a deer can

446
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: get that same whiff and basically specify how much meats

447
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: in there, where it came from, what animal grew, maybe

448
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: even the age of that meat, Um it came out

449
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: that out that animal, the seasonings in the dish, and

450
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: they can gauge things like the probably even that the

451
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: temperature of that stuff, as as us cooking in there

452
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: and how it's distributed, and we're boxed exactly in the

453
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: house it's coming from without ever having stuff put in there.

454
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: And so I think they have that, and I don't

455
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: think grants exaggerating. I think they really have when you

456
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: look at how many um scent receptors they likely have

457
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: in their nose and all these factors that go into it.

458
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: That one thing I loved about UM this piece on

459
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: for Meat Eater when I got writing about this was

460
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: it's it's cool to me to think that we have

461
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: really nailed down things like um the dogs, you know,

462
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: and dogs, dogs have so much practical application for humans

463
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: where We use dogs in so many different ways that

464
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: there's been lots of research in the what dear what what?

465
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: Dogs can smell how many cent receptors they have in

466
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: their nose and then um. But then we don't really

467
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: have that for deer because well, deer, as much as

468
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: we enjoy hunting them, they don't have the practical application

469
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: in the field. You know, it's police work tracking down

470
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: suspects wherever it might be that dogs do so. Like

471
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: so you look at a human nose and they figure

472
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: that the human nose has anywhere from ten to fifty

473
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: million cent receptors in there. That in the east cent

474
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: receptor is kind of specialized little unit that can detect

475
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: different sense, just just one specific sense, and but we

476
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: have so many of them. It gets this whole array

477
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: of sense that we can kind of distinguish. And most

478
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: of us can point to someone in our life that

479
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: can smell better than we kind of in my case,

480
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: I would look at my wife, and my wife can

481
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: can pick out orders and scents and and tell you

482
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: what what vegetable. There's those kind of things, and I

483
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: always struggle with that. But you know, so we have

484
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: figure if the human has fifty million cent receptors. And

485
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: you look at a bloodhound and a bloodhound they have

486
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: like um, some estimates up to four billion cent receptors

487
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: in their nose. So when they need a bloodhound on

488
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: a human track, they figured they figure out real quickly

489
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: on the direction that travel. Um. Basically, um, you know

490
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: which comes into play when someone tries to double back

491
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: and a bloodhound, the bloodhound instantly figures out wood stunt um,

492
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: which part of that foot track is, which footprint was

493
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: made most recently. They can tell that just by smelling it.

494
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: Which is the most what's the hottest scent? So that's um,

495
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: I guess where I I just love that kind of stuff.

496
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: I love reading about and interviewing people who have done

497
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: these tests and figure out how these how these dogs

498
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: are will smell so well. Then Grant going back to

499
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: Grant Woods again. So I asked Grant, well, what do

500
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: you think can smell better? We don't have that kind

501
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: of pinpointed information on on a deer stunt receptors. You

502
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: haven't mapped out the dere is. No wants to know

503
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: what part of that nose a smelling nests for part

504
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: of a smelling that And Grant me this great point,

505
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: he said, You know, I dear can't smell better, can't

506
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: detect sense better than a dog. How would they survived

507
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: all these eons in a rover They're being hunted by coyotes,

508
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: um and wolves. You know they must be able to

509
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: smell there in those creatures if they're able to evade

510
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: them this long and actually, um, you know, survived despite

511
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: heavy predation in some cases. Interesting point. That makes a

512
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: lot of sense. Yeah, given that, given that way, and

513
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: we know this, um, what's the right way to st

514
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: We know this intellectually as humans, We know they have

515
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: this tremendous level of of scenting ability. But then oftentimes

516
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: we still try to fight it. We still try to

517
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: find ways to defeat a white tail's nose. And you

518
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: kind of two schools of thought these days. There's one

519
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: school thought that says, do everything you possibly can and

520
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: and this is kind of what I typically air towards.

521
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: You know, spray your stuff down, do the sent free shower,

522
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: store it outside, tryo zone, try this thing that I

523
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: try it all. At least you can maybe help yourself

524
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. And the other school thought is you're

525
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: never going to deer's nose. Why even bother just focus

526
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: on playing the wind right and then it doesn't matter. Um,

527
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: what do you think, where do you fall on that

528
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: pad or where does your research point you towards? When

529
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: you talk to all these different people. Can you defeat

530
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: it in any way? Is it even worth trying? The point,

531
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: the point I make, and I do believe this um,

532
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: is that you can. You can knock down your sent

533
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: enough to where you confuse them, where you make them

534
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: think you're farther away than you actually are. And I

535
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: remember being able to pick up on that with my

536
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: own two eyes sort of speak back and probably like

537
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: the mid mid the late nineties, and um, this is

538
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: back when Yeah, I remember, Mark, this shows you. I'm

539
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: really aging myself here. But one of my first trade

540
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: shows I attended was proud of about nineteen ninety one

541
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: when sent blocks first came out and Greg Sussimon was

542
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: Greg Sussman, the guy who phoned in the Centlock company

543
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: had like a little ten by ten booth at um

544
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: what was then the Bull Hunting trade show, and he

545
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: was doing the scent that this um test to cash

546
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: show people the technology he was using where he put

547
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: different scents in a jar and then covered the jar

548
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: jar jars with um His scent fabric, which in those

549
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: days it's kind of it's fun to look back into stuff.

550
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 1: And I wish I would have kept Mark, I mean

551
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: um His Greg's original stuff, because if it looked like

552
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: but basically dark pajamas almost something like they um well,

553
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: like you know, just something like the Ninjas of the

554
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: Ward made me. You know, so this the stuff you'd

555
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: you put these these these these the sunlock fabric pajamas

556
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: on and then put your hunting clothes over top of them.

557
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: And one thing that I remember a couple of different times,

558
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: I'd be sitting on an edge of a field up

559
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: in a tree, and you watch a deer way off

560
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: in the distance austin pick us nose. They're down windy,

561
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: you they pick up the nose and they just certain

562
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: waiting that nose back and forth in the air like

563
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: they're like you could tell they're confused, like they can

564
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: they can detect something, but they're not alarmed. And I

565
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: saw a couple of different times where dolls and young

566
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: bucks were worked their way across that field the nose

567
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: in the air, sniffing and sniffing and sniffing and sniffing.

568
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: Trying to figure out where that samella is coming from.

569
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: The new that they knew it was was danger, but

570
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: they weren't scared. They were more like curious knowing they're

571
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: getting like there. They thought, you're off in the distance

572
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: that you know, farther than you they were. And eventually

573
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: they get within um tuner yards center fifty yards before

574
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: they started getting a little a little more and see

575
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: where it's going. To think this might not be good.

576
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: But I thought, you know, God, in the past though,

577
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: you'd see that kind of behavior and they just get

578
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: that smell, smell, get that sentence be gone. So I thought,

579
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: you can't tell me it has no impact. Now, can

580
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: you make it where you're invisible? No, that's again where

581
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: I am now in the modern era. Quote guys like

582
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyan, because I think one of your great quotes

583
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: in that article is that you know, you just want

584
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: to kind of make it to where you can't can't

585
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: decide for sure what it is that's that's UM providing

586
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: that the extra little little um, the um sent suppressing

587
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: UM effort. But there's but you can't pinpoint it. But

588
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: not you know, you enough these things the shotgun approaches

589
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: you described it I think I buy that I've seen

590
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: enough of it where I don't I really get kind

591
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: of testing. When guys say all that stuff bologna that

592
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: doesn't work, I think, no, there's there's enough good science

593
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: in there that's been tested by the university, like Ruckers

594
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: and elsewhere where the scent lock stuff. It does trap sense,

595
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: it does hold scent, and you can reactivate the stuff

596
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: to point where it'sorbs more ascent, and so you can

597
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: you can make a difference there, So I won't discount

598
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: that where I think most hunters fail, and I put

599
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: myself in this category. It takes real, considered, consistent effort

600
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: to knock down that scent all the time, and white

601
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: tail hunters can do it because you know we can.

602
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: We can kind of they can choose where we're gonna hunt.

603
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: We can kind of plan each stand time Age tell

604
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: me sit in the stand. We can kind of plan

605
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: for it and work around where it gets tougher to do.

606
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: I think in Western environments where you're you're moving constantly,

607
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: you're you're you're spotting a stalk, and you're glassing all

608
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: these kinds of things, you're building building the sweat, it's

609
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: much harder to control they're se in that setting than

610
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: than it is in a typical bow hunters in white

611
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: tail country. So to me that all those kind of

612
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: things factor into this. So I never I don't UM.

613
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: I still try to spray down, you know, to use

614
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: the scent scent killing sprays and that kind of thing,

615
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: because I figure, what's the harm at least, you know,

616
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't hurt anything to try it. And and I

617
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: and I have seen these nice little tests that we

618
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: do with the human knows where you people do have

619
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: a harder time detecting things that have been sprayed down.

620
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: And I figured, well, you know you're playing you're basically

621
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: playing percentages. You know, if you're gonna if you could

622
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: have a choice between um A two percent effectiveness and

623
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: zero effectiveness, well of course you can try the two

624
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 1: percent or three percent, and it's a little edge at

625
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: the right time in the right place, and time might

626
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: just be enough to make it work. So why would

627
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: you discount that? Exactly? Definitely agree with that. Now, what

628
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: about the latest trend in the scent control world, which

629
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: is Ozone. Right, there was the Ozonics and then they're

630
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: Scent Crusher, and then is all these other companies coming

631
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: out different ozone devices and stuff. Have you been able

632
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: to talk to any researchers or see any science that

633
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: backs that up, anything in your research that points to

634
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: how effective that is to any degree, I'm not really

635
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: you know there where you get as you can figure

636
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: out anyone can figure out real quickly, is that it's

637
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: hard to prove the effectiveness of this kind of stuff

638
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: out in the field. And so like to me, I

639
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: I look at the ozone idea and that this um

640
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: these different different devices that you know, UM based like ozonics,

641
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: I think it makes sense to me. I mean, I

642
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: guess the thing that convinces me, Mark is when you

643
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: can do a good practical example of how that stuff,

644
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: how that stuff came to be. And I think the

645
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: story they use that it makes sense to me that

646
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: it was developed apparently by a guy who was was

647
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: he like a veterinarian or working or doing ne necrop

648
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: necrop SE's on dead animals and use this zone to

649
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: make it um. So it was quite so stinky over

650
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: the operating table, over the examining table, and by blowing

651
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: this ozone across the table and killing that scent or

652
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: whatever it does, destroying that scent you know, you think, well,

653
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, I can see where if you could put

654
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: put the device like that position over your over your

655
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: head so as it blows off from the tree stand,

656
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: it's disrupting your your your scent distribution. And I guess

657
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: the way I look at it is UM. During my

658
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Navy days, I remember taking all his Fasse firefighting classes,

659
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: and they always talked about this foam they use in

660
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: firefighting doesn't really put the phone put the fire out,

661
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: but it keeps the oxygen from reaching the flames, so

662
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: then effectively, as smothers that it cuts it off. I think,

663
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: while you can do that in a in a sun

664
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: stream with ozone, it makes sense. And but as far

665
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: as you know, when you're trying to improve this stuff,

666
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: that's where it is tricky, because you know, there's so

667
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: many different factors that come into this UM. You know,

668
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: if you don't point the thing down when correctly, or

669
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: or if your scent goes off with a different direction

670
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: than that a zone blowing out and then then they

671
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: so there's always a little things that are very hard

672
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: to prove UM scientifically and consistently, and there's many little

673
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: factors that come into that testing process that disrupt things

674
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: enough to where he can't get always the firm conclusions

675
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: that we'd all like to have. Yeah, so true, But

676
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: like you said, it does seem like it's another one

677
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: of those things that that intuitively, at least when you're

678
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: out there experientially, it does seem to help to some degree,

679
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: at least at least I've seen it. Um, yeah, it

680
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: seems to help. But like you said, there's a whole

681
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: lot of what ifs and butts, and you know, there

682
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 1: are a lot of ways to go wrong too. But yeah,

683
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 1: I think that's where I get as a reporter, coming

684
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: up from the reporter's point of view. That's why I

685
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: seem it's important for me to talk to people like you.

686
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: I ask like Greg Miller when he's what he's come across.

687
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: Greg's always been a pretty good street shooter. I've known

688
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: him for about thirty years. Grant Woods that I've talked

689
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: to different people and they don't always want to be

690
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: quoted on on various stuff because of various um, you know,

691
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: requirements they have with sponsors, whatever might be. But you know, eventually,

692
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: you if you talk to enough people and they trust

693
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: you enough to tell you what they really think, and

694
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: then um, you can, you can kind of. Over time,

695
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: I think I'm always always to believe. I always believe

696
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: in the idea that you know, facts aren't really disputable.

697
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: You know, you can't have um, you can't have I

698
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: don't believe in the alternative facts. That believe in facts.

699
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: And when I when you get to a point where

700
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: you're interviewed enough people, you've read enough of the literature,

701
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: and you make some conclusions that well, here's the facts

702
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: and here's the BS, and so when I tend to

703
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: I find myself over time, the people I really trust

704
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: that I feel like I can I can share their

705
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: their insights and feel confident that I can fall back

706
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: on the information they provide to back up arguments if

707
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: someone disputes them. What was the people I keep going

708
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: back to because I figured out they've they've done enough

709
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: on this, they have enough experience to were plus they

710
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: they just day and day out tell the truth. I

711
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: go with those folks and I stand by them. Yeah,

712
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: what do you think then when you when you think

713
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: back on people like that or research that you've been

714
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: reading up on. Let's shift from smell now to site H.

715
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: There's also a recent movement in the site world where

716
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: people are like cameos for the birds. They don't need

717
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: a cameo. You can hunt in whatever. Um. I'm curious

718
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: what you've seen when it comes to the science of

719
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: dear sight, um, and what that should inform us as hunters,

720
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: or how that should inform us as hunters. What what

721
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: what stands out to you about deer's vision and why

722
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: and how might it be important to us as hunters

723
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: to know that Yeah, yeah, that's that's a you're not

724
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: proud of reading the same stuff and hearing from the

725
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: same people, and you're at least hearing the same arguments

726
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: from different folks. And the thing in the bottom line

727
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: where I always start with when it comes to the

728
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: dear vision is their ability to see motion. They can

729
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: see motions so well humans see motion really well as

730
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: already called from what they can figure out what I

731
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: think it's called, like, um, the flicker effect or something

732
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: that they abially to see movement and then quick respond

733
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: to it. And as you're as you're moving yourself dear

734
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: um that they are have been able to test us

735
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: that deer can can see as they're movements to the woods.

736
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: They can see things and respond to it or have

737
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: interpret or whatever you want to call analyze it like

738
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: two and a half times faster than humans can. So

739
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: that which proudly explains why they can run through the

740
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: woods and not poked their eye out all the time.

741
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: If we ran through the at the speed um, at

742
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: even our fastest speed, which is nowhere near what deers is,

743
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: we we probably jams. We'll probably lose our eyes in

744
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: no time. And you think how how tough that is

745
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: to negotiate stuff. We're not constantly duck in your head

746
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: and and and seeing stuff coming. Well, dear, um, you

747
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: know I I've killed a lot, dear in my life,

748
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: and I've yet to find a deer the poked out eye.

749
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 1: Think it's amazing, you know, I find them. I find

750
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: scars on him at times. But then you don't know

751
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: if forgot from jabbing into a branch or jabbing from

752
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: a buck, whatever might be. Um, there're a thing that um,

753
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: I remember to mark again this is this speaks to

754
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: my age. But I remember reading all the time as

755
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: the kid growing up that dear sea black and white.

756
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: That's all I can see is black and white. And

757
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: that was really the common belief back and probably well

758
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: into the into the seventies, and probably the even the

759
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: early eighties was probably still people thinking that deer basically

760
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: see black and white. And Carl Miller at the University

761
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: of Georgia and some of his students started looking into

762
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: it and realized, no, they can see some colors. But

763
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: but the thing that Charl Millery will still talk about

764
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 1: to this day is that we're we getting the trouble

765
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: all the time. We can analyze, um, what how many

766
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: cones may roger and the deer's I what what we

767
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: think they can see? But one thing we can't do

768
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: a deer, we can't actually ask them. Um, we can't

769
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: put like those a little grid you if you were

770
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: taking a color vision test. Um, anyone enter the military

771
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: takes us color vision tests. Now, remember my color vision

772
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: was was fine. I every little shirt they flipped over,

773
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: I could identify the little number hidden number in these

774
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: in these um in these pictures. Whereas guys with certain

775
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: color vision problems can't see those numbers and they so

776
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: they get blackballed. You know, they couldn't go in and

777
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: well you have that problem, huh, I've got I've got

778
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of red green color deficiency. Blindness. Yeah. Yeah,

779
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: So so like guys like you are are the ones

780
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: they'll kind of refer to as they'll they'll say, well,

781
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: there's one color blindness that m might line up with

782
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: a deer color blindness is it's that? Is that one

783
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: that you have? But the thing they get tricky about

784
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: where they get a little more careful about. They'll say, yeah,

785
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 1: but what we don't know is what the dear brain

786
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: is interpreting from what it's seeing. And that's where humans

787
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: we can we know damn well what humans are interpreting

788
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: because we ask them, you know, can you see this?

789
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: And you say yes or no? Well how do you

790
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: How do you prove that with a deer? You can't

791
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: just put a bunch of flip charts in front of

792
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: it and starts saying, tell us, tell us, which one

793
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: do you see the number three in this picture? You

794
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: know you can't do that with deer. So it's really

795
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: always open to interpretation until we can find a way

796
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: to test dear to pick out those little things that

797
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: it does get tricky. But at George they have developed

798
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: some tests and they have shown that you know, dear

799
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: for example, they think, um see like the blue shades

800
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: like ten ten, eighteen times better than than than humans

801
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: can maybe more than that. Think I hanmeralize all the

802
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: details in that, but it's they can see blues really good.

803
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: They can see um into the UV spectrum, but they

804
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: can't see in the infrared spectrum and where you know,

805
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: so they have a lot of different um um things

806
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: they think they know based on the structure of the eye.

807
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: Because one of the cool things about um when they

808
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: break down the um the things and the deer as

809
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: I the thing that you know, I just kind of

810
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: rely on is that nature wouldn't provide that particular um

811
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: filter or that particular number of rods and cones unless

812
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: the deer is able to use them, you know, just

813
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, nature is so efficient that way, so chances

814
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: are it doesn't have like we have this yellow filter

815
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: in our eye that helps us um break down detail

816
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: or getting you can see detail really clear. You know,

817
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: when you talk about twenty vision, that means, you know,

818
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: good solid vision that almost everyone who sees that basically

819
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: indicates this is what you should see a yard thing

820
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: it is whereas deer they figure their acuity either their

821
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 1: ability to see that buying detail. It's only about third

822
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: of what ours is. So they but they figured, well,

823
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, they really don't need that um to tend

824
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: to see to find detail that humans requires, so they

825
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: don't they don't need that, so they don't have that

826
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: deal filter. And plus that y'all filter apparently filters out

827
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: like the ultra violet lights, which for our lifespan we

828
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: live a long time that's important to have. We didn't have,

829
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: we'd probably go blind at some point. Where a deer

830
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: they don't live that long, so they don't have that

831
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: yellow filter. So there's always cool things that they are

832
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: able to look at. But still the thing they can't do,

833
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, is they can't they can't flash

834
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: pictures in front of a deer's eyes and then tell

835
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: what and then have them tell us what they see.

836
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: So so the big takeaways on vision or the things

837
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: that we think we kind of know are they've got

838
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: a better than average ability to see blues, So don't

839
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: go out there wearing a blue ball cap or blue

840
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: jeans or something like that. Um, they don't necessarily have

841
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: the level of attention to ability to see detail, but

842
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: movement is so key for them. So again, like my

843
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 1: grandpa told me when I was a little kids. Stop moving, Mark,

844
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: stop moving, that's the case. Still keep it slow, right,

845
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: you know. And another another fascinating thing about UM, why,

846
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: like why we can get away with so much more

847
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: up up in a tree standing you can in the

848
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: ground is you know, the way their eyes designed. We

849
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: have a ground pupil, so we can see above and below.

850
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: That's pretty good, you know, without really moving our eyes

851
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: around a whole lot, we can be that good up

852
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: and down vertical vision. Where a deer lives lives full

853
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: time on the ground, it's been preyed on by poor

854
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: legged predators all through all through its eon, so it

855
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: doesn't really need that um ability to see upward as

856
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: much as as UM like some animals might. But the

857
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: deer does not see above quite as well as we can,

858
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: and so you can you can get away with stuff.

859
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they get better above. Once they know

860
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: they're being hunted from above, they'll they'll cock their head

861
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: up there and look look that way more often than

862
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: a deer that's not tune into that. And that's why

863
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 1: you see areas where they have a hunted a lot

864
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: when they when they've been hunted hunted a lot by

865
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: UM from tree stands. Yeah, they definitely do look up more,

866
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: but as far as it walking through the woods, unless

867
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: they actually make a conscious effort to look up, you know,

868
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: they don't see that that stuff up above them as

869
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: well as we can. So those kind of things are

870
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: able to let you know, pinpoint based on just that

871
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: the structure of the deer's eye and um, you know,

872
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: you know, try to gauge, well, what what's it good at,

873
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: what's it not good at, and what colors does it

874
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: see better? And another one that that comes into play

875
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: is the fact that I'm you know, their eye is

876
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: really well built for the time time of days they're

877
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: most active. You know, that's right at the edge of

878
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: the day, you know, dawn and dusk. You know, if

879
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: their eye picks up on these um, I think it's

880
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: in the blue spectrum again, those blue spectrum lights that

881
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: gets reflected like underneath the tail for example, it gives

882
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: off a light that's in the blue spectrum. So when

883
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: they're run into the woods and they the mother's got

884
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: his tail up and they're bunch following it, they can

885
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: pick that on white tail up really well and light

886
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: that is being reflected off of it. So those kind

887
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: of things are. I love reading that stuff and then

888
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: I and I end up always you know, thinking well,

889
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, luck can we do to beat that? And

890
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: I think, well, you always come back down to the

891
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: thing you just mentioned, sits still mark. It's still going

892
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: to be the number one thing. Yeah, I think I

893
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: think I need one of those like wrist bracelets or something,

894
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: or put a little piece of paper on my bowl

895
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: riser that or the top of my visor my hat

896
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: that just has sits still mark. That would be a

897
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,479
Speaker 1: good just reminder all day every day when I'm out hunting,

898
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: because it is it's to the basic thing you're taught

899
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: in the time you first hunt. But damn it's hard

900
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: to do. It's hard to sit there and have that

901
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: discipline and not and well know it kills me all

902
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: the time. Is um They always tell you don't snap

903
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: your head around when you hear hear a thud noise. Yeah,

904
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: I think what, Yeah, I've never been able to stop

905
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: stop myself and snapping ahead around. That's why I'm not. Yeah,

906
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: it's just an kind of an instinct. So speaking of that, then, right,

907
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: you hear this snap, we since this over the right shoulder,

908
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 1: we spin our head. They see it. Um, we had

909
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: some directional acuity with our hearing, we can kind of

910
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: tell where sounds come from, moving now tow dear here.

911
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: They have that even more to an even higher degree

912
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: than we do. And you brought this up a little

913
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: bit earlier, Um, But that seems to be like the

914
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: superpower when it comes to dear hearing. Maybe necessarily they

915
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: can hear ten million times farther than us, but they

916
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: certainly can detect the source of sound better than us, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

917
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 1: they have that ability to when they can turn those

918
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: ears towards the sun of a source or if their

919
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: here's the point in that that direction, when they hear it,

920
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: they can lock on real quickly. And almost every deer

921
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: hunter I know I can tell a story about doing

922
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: something like rattling. When they're rattling, rattling antlers, or doing

923
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: something that that scares it where a deer gets curious,

924
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: those deer will show up right on the spot almost

925
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: of we're where you rattle from, or also show up

926
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: I think I think that you brought this point up.

927
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: If they don't show up there, they'll show up down

928
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: wind of that spot almost precisely like its precisely downwind

929
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: of it where they know that's that sound came from.

930
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: Let me figure out how you know what it was

931
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: before I commit myself here. And so that ability to

932
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: it's basically trying, you know, the idea of triangulating and

933
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: when you have a big ears and you have you

934
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: know apart, what are the six five inches aparted up

935
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: on top of their head, that gives it just enough

936
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: that three dimensional ability to triangulate that Really, it's it's

937
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: it's powerful. We're um, you know, you think, well, how

938
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: we do We do pretty well ourselves with with fixed years.

939
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: So I think what the deer can do with with

940
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: these these you know, like almost like readar dishes the

941
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 1: top of their head. Yeah. The thing for me when

942
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: it comes to that that I always try to remind

943
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: myself and I would remind other people too, is like

944
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: when you are actively choosing to make noise. So if

945
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: you are grunting, a rattling trying to attract dear to

946
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: your two within shooting range, you better sure as hell

947
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: believe that it could work. Because if you rattle and

948
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: then after ten seconds you don't see anything, you lose

949
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: your focus point. You're gonna get surprised. A couple of

950
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: times with the deer showing up ten yards away looking

951
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,479
Speaker 1: at you moving around your tree stands. So you better

952
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: assume that, hey, they can they're locked after you make

953
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: that noise, you better just make the assumption, Okay, there's

954
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: a buck, he's locked on. He's going to be within

955
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: ten yards of me. I better be prepared for that

956
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: in case that happens, because if you get lax at

957
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: that moment, I've seen it too many times, you're gonna

958
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: pay definitely, you know. That's I think we're always accumulative

959
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: things of hunting a fishing come into play, and that

960
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: that confidence that it won't happen all the time. It

961
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: might only happen a couple of times a fall, but

962
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: you're better be ready when it happens. And I think

963
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: anyone who's ever gone fishing, and whether it's seeing watching

964
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: corks or trolling whatever, if you don't have confidence that

965
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: at some point that rod holder is gonna they're gonna

966
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: be a rod bucking in the back end of the

967
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: boat with a fish on the other end, you know,

968
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: you lose your focus, your mind wanders, and then in

969
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: those cases um that that we're trolling, you can you

970
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: can get away with that. But when you're like digging

971
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: for walleyes and you get lax, you get complacent, and

972
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: you lose your confidence, you're probably gonna miss the fish.

973
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: And so I think all these kind of things start

974
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: adding up for people who hunting fish a lot, they

975
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: start realizing that this is a matter of you know,

976
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: like we're talking earlier that when when we talk in

977
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: terms of one percent two percent success rates, um, those

978
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: aren't those aren't unrealistic um expectations really. But but if

979
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: you're not ready in that two percent happens, you're gonna

980
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: miss your chance. And it happens all the time. So

981
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: you know, one of my one of my favorite things

982
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: I worked on years ago. It was an article for

983
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: Deer and Deer Rning magazine where a woman named Karen

984
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: Dasher I think was her maiden name. She did some

985
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: great research on on scrape visitation by bucks and she

986
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: found that only about two percent or three percent of

987
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: visitations to an active scrape we're happening during um during

988
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: daylight mayment five percent, but wasn't. It was a pretty

989
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: low percentage of scrape visitations was occurring and shooting light.

990
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: And so you know, some people would read that and goal, well,

991
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: what's the point of sitting there? Point two percent that

992
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: you're time sitting on that stand, there's a chance about

993
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: buck come and buy, And I think, well, if that's

994
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, the God you've dealt with it, then it

995
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of speaks to the idea that you better be

996
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 1: out there every chance you get sitting on that spot,

997
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: because you might if you're not there as often as

998
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: you can can be out there, you'll never You'll certainly

999
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: that then really go up to worse than Yeah, there's

1000
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: there's certainly a lot too trying to just that confidencing,

1001
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: just being out there and knowing that if you're if

1002
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: you're doing something that you have faith in, you're gonna

1003
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: do it a lot better. This comes to a self

1004
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy, and that applies to so many things. When

1005
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: it comes to dear. On the hearing thing, I remember

1006
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: reading something about you had mentioned that deer have the

1007
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: ability to there's some kind of neural filtering ability with

1008
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: your hearing. Do you recall that and what can you

1009
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: describe that? Yeah? Yeah, neural filtering is basically the ability

1010
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: to to um the deer, you know, because they live

1011
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: in their environment seven three sixty five a year throughout there,

1012
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: they they hear songs all day long that they can

1013
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: eventually they figure out which one's to filter out, which

1014
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 1: one was not to filter out. And the best way

1015
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: I could I come up with to describe that ability,

1016
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: um in human terms, is the idea that most of

1017
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 1: us have been in a loud environment, like at a

1018
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: cocktail party, and were and we were able to focus

1019
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: on the person in front of us and what they're

1020
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: talking to us about, and listening only to their voice

1021
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: and tuning out all the rest of the background noise.

1022
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: And but then somehow in that process, though we're listening,

1023
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: but if we hear our name mentioned, like a couple

1024
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 1: of couple of people away, or or or a certain

1025
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: phrase or certain words that are always of high interest

1026
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: to us, um, we we somehow are you able to

1027
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: pick out those noises, those sounds and of the meaning

1028
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: and look that way? And dear you think when they

1029
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: do the same thing out in the woods, you know

1030
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: they hear a scroll bots into the woods, or or

1031
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: a possum wading through the woods or downstalls, you get

1032
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: those um armadillo's and eventually you know, you think, humans,

1033
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: how many times, honey, times we've been hunting, we get

1034
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: pretty good at picking out all those solids and differentiating them.

1035
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: But we still get tricked all the time, or we

1036
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: or we don't want to be tricks. We look anyway

1037
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 1: and son, deer, they just if they didn't have that

1038
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: a building that they would they would not last one

1039
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: if they would be basically nervous wrecks. Because one of

1040
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: the one of the trues of deer that I always

1041
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: keep in mind. I make this comment all the time, um,

1042
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: is that deer either scared or they're dead if they're

1043
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: not in that potential. They're not always in that frame

1044
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: of mind were Um, they have to they have to

1045
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: pay attention. They're not always paying attention. They can't afford

1046
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: to let their don't like we do, and they get complacent.

1047
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: But yet there's many times you see them just totally

1048
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: disregard certain noises at as because they're complacent. I think

1049
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 1: it's just because they know this is not they they're

1050
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: so good at that they identify that sound is non

1051
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: threatening and they just keep going about their business. And

1052
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: that's where, um, I think in this article we talked

1053
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: about you know, you know, I got talking about well,

1054
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 1: what's the best way to approach to stand when when

1055
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: it's when a dry woods And that's when you mentioned

1056
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: that the idea, Well, sometimes that you're thinking that might

1057
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: be probably smart just to run to your stand or

1058
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: try to your stand. A Cadence said that they just

1059
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: don't usually just don't sha with people. If you're sneaking in,

1060
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, they probably a sound that they have learned.

1061
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: There's nothing there's nothing safe about a sneaky human, and

1062
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: so they will pick that up that picked that sound

1063
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: out every time. Yeah, I've definitely tried to change up

1064
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 1: my cad And says sometimes when when you know they're

1065
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: gonna hear something, it's better not to sound like this

1066
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: the sneaky human. That's That's definitely something that I think.

1067
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: No another thing I feel like when when we're talking

1068
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: about this ability to neural filter, dear able to pick

1069
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: the sounds that matter. Um, of course there's gonna be

1070
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,959
Speaker 1: human like sounds are so unnatural, like metal on metal,

1071
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I'm sure something they pick up

1072
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: on right away. But what about this one. Um, this

1073
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: is something that I've wondered about and seen, and that

1074
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: is other animals making warning noises. So let's say you

1075
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: are sitting in your tree and you happen to move,

1076
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: and a squirrel sees you and just starts going off,

1077
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: starts chattering, chattering, chattering. It's like that warning or a

1078
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: bird you're walking through and a crow starts crowing at you,

1079
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: crowing at you. To there's any truth or validity to

1080
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: the fact or the idea, the theory that certain animals

1081
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: will make warnings that deer can pick up on and

1082
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: they interpret it as danger in some kind of way.

1083
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: That's right, right. UM. I get nervous about making any

1084
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: hard and fast comment on something like that because I

1085
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: have no way annoying for certain um. But I guess personally,

1086
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: I know it irritates the crap out of me and

1087
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: worries me when an animal starts doing that girls chattering

1088
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: at chipmunsters, cheaping those kind of sounds. Um, that worries me.

1089
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: I thank god. You know, how can another animal that

1090
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: would not take notice of that? And then the figure

1091
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: if if it's if it's on a route that might

1092
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: take it somewhere close to me. Now it's probably having

1093
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: second thoughts because it might not know that. They might

1094
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: not have their own little language. But the thing. I

1095
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: say that just because logically I can't prove it. But

1096
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: but but then again, I always remember one of my

1097
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: little memories from childhood was my grandmother listening to a

1098
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: blue jay call one morning, and it's a certain certain

1099
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: call that blue jay's make and she goes, uh, I

1100
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: guess to be reigning leader today, And I said, like,

1101
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: what she's She says that that's on there and his

1102
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: blood was made it against she's that's that call right

1103
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: there indicates that later today is in the rain. And

1104
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: to this day, when I hear that particularly blue jay call, God,

1105
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: she's it's usually been right. And but but for me,

1106
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: the thing is, Mark, I couldn't begin to tell you

1107
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: what too right now. I imitate that sound to the

1108
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: to a point where you could understand it and where

1109
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: I could actually pass that knowledge along. So I think

1110
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: there's this knowledge that we can pass along through direct

1111
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: contact like that that will always stick with us. But

1112
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: how do you communicate that to a fellow hunter in

1113
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 1: an article? And and then so that's where I don't

1114
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: discount the idea that that deer that lives in that

1115
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: environment seven might be able to hear a little nuanced

1116
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: call that we don't get the nuance, but the deer does.

1117
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: And so that's where I can't discount it because I can't.

1118
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: I can't say ever seen it myself. I don't there's

1119
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: any scientist. I can never say they've they've the pinpoint

1120
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: of it. But I've I've talked to us some guys

1121
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: that claim, without a doubt that a certain crow calls

1122
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: and certain scurorell calls alert dear and put them on

1123
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: on edge. And I think I I courted this um

1124
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: guy in my recent Mediator article on hearing, where he

1125
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: claimed the only time he was watching a buck one

1126
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: time in the bed, and the only time that buck

1127
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: picked up his head and focused on anything was when

1128
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: he heard a cruel calling in the distance, And I

1129
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: locked onto that sound and looked at direction for the

1130
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: whole time the crow was was was on squawking. So

1131
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: that assuming he's interpreting it right, well, the chance that

1132
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: it was something out there that concerned that dear, concerned

1133
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: that crow, that concerned that dear. So I don't know,

1134
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's fun to talk about, and I guess

1135
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: I don't discount it. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what.

1136
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: I certainly use those sounds to alert myself to possibility

1137
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:58,959
Speaker 1: of deer. So when I was sitting in a tree stand,

1138
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: you hear that squirrel of a sudden go off fort

1139
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: yards away and then brush right away at keet on

1140
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: that spot. Because so many times I've heard this a

1141
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: squirrel sound off the warning and if you watch it

1142
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: long enough, hope there's the deer. Um. Yeah, yeah, And

1143
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: then that got you know, I should I should have

1144
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: mentioned that. I remember the first the first time I

1145
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: ever got a shot my bow and arrow. Um, I

1146
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: was sixteen years old, you know, and back in this

1147
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: like nineteen seventy one or seventy two, I could do.

1148
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 1: I think there's some thing seventy one I was up

1149
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: in this. Back in those days, we didn't have portable

1150
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: tree stand you know, so typically we just find a

1151
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 1: big old tree with that with a good horizontal branch

1152
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: and stand on it. And I remember watching this nice

1153
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: state point buck walked on this trail. To me, my

1154
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: first indication that that deer was anywhere around was a

1155
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: chipmunk started started cheaping off in that direction, and I

1156
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: looked up that way and I saw a little weird

1157
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: movement that it wasn't a squirrel or a chipmunk, and

1158
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: I watched a couple more times, and I realized what

1159
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: the deer's nose um it was. It was eating, it

1160
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: was browsing on some branches or from bruscias that came

1161
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: through and then but I always remember that that that

1162
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: was my first warning, my first indication that I had

1163
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: company was that that chipmunk. I think it's probably something

1164
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: that people ignore, but if you think a lot of people,

1165
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: if you spend any of my time in the woods

1166
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 1: at all, you'll eventually kind of get to know what

1167
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: an angry chipmunk or angry angry squirrel or what that

1168
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 1: sound is. And if you hear that sound, gosh, it

1169
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: pays to take a few minutes and scour that area

1170
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: with your eyes, because so many times they like they're

1171
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: not doing that for no reason. There's some kind of

1172
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: reason why they're making that racket, and often it can

1173
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: be an approaching animal. Yeah, and that that's you're right,

1174
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that's that crawls out there, the squawking

1175
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: first one entertainment. Yeah, something something triggered you know, well,

1176
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: you know it's it goes back to and this informs

1177
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: so much of my dear hunting worldview and strategy. Now

1178
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: it comes back to something that Craig Doherty once told me,

1179
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: Um sitting in a box blind with him up on

1180
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: his New York farm, and we didn't see any deer.

1181
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 1: That it was an evening sit, it was over food

1182
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: put there should have been dozens of deer and we

1183
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: didn't see anything at all. And I made a comment like, well,

1184
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's dear, you just never know what they're

1185
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: gonna do, Um, And I kind of passed it off

1186
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: as you'll never know, and Craig said, no, that's the

1187
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: wrong approach. He said, you always need to ask why.

1188
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: There's always a reason why. And the key to getting

1189
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 1: better at this thing is whenever you observe something, or

1190
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: whenever something goes right or something goes wrong, UM, or

1191
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: something happens unexpectedly, don't just take it for oh, that

1192
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: thing happened and move on. Deserve whatever happened, and then

1193
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: ask why and trying to figure that out. And there's

1194
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,439
Speaker 1: so often in the woods when you see a buck

1195
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: walk from point A to point B, I always try

1196
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: to think to myself afterwards, why did he move from

1197
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: point to point B? Why did he go in that direction,

1198
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: Why was he acting in that way? And I've just

1199
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: as much as I possibly can. I'm trying to ask

1200
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: that throughout my hunting season, throughout a hunt, and I

1201
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times that has helped me

1202
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: to learn lessons constantly. There's there's a reason why they

1203
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: do everything. If we can pick even like five, if

1204
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: we can get the answer right five percent of the time,

1205
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: that helps mhm. Yeah. No, I really respect that that

1206
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: approach because I've always figured that's one of the reasons

1207
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: I'll never consider myself, um a great deer hunter. I'll

1208
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: never I'll never try to try to tell people that

1209
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: will listen to me. You know, I know all there

1210
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: is or I'm really the expert in this area, but

1211
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 1: that no, I've met to me, these people I meant

1212
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 1: to me guys who really are that good. And the

1213
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: thing I think they all have in common is that curiosity,

1214
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: that that that ability to to um. They might they

1215
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: might interpret it wrong, whatever it might be, but the

1216
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: fact that they're questioning it all the time and trying

1217
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: to put those pieces together all the time, that's what

1218
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: makes them so good at it. You know, the things

1219
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: that I find interesting. It might might not interest them

1220
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:06,919
Speaker 1: in the least because it doesn't really put into their

1221
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: the puzzle and trying to put together. Whereas you like,

1222
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 1: I can get myself distracted on any number of things

1223
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: out in the woods, and I was thinking, that's probably

1224
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: a while and there would be a great deer on here.

1225
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: I tend to my mind tends to wander. I tend

1226
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 1: to look at our stuff and start being interested in

1227
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: in a certain bird where I find a feather and go, okay,

1228
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: I'll start trying to figure out what, what where that

1229
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,680
Speaker 1: feather came from, instead of paying attention to sounds around me.

1230
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: You know. So, I think these are all the things

1231
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: that um to separate the woman from the girls when

1232
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: it comes to hunters. You know that that that there's

1233
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: there's two those guys out there. I just um, I've

1234
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: learned over time that you you don't get jealous of

1235
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: their success. You respect their success because chances are that

1236
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: they do it if they don't just stumble off me

1237
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: and everyone can stum on to a good buck to

1238
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: right now and then for um a good nice long

1239
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: string of successful They never come home empty hand the

1240
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: year to year. But people who are good at this,

1241
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: who it really matters to them. They're all through all

1242
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 1: the time, they're they're they're they got their trail cameras

1243
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: going all the time. They're they're looking at this stuff

1244
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: in the trail camera. They're interpreting what they're seeing in there.

1245
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: It's always something that's um. It's tugging at them and

1246
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: inspiring them and sparking something. Where then there's the rest

1247
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 1: of us who want to attribute it all the luck

1248
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: and just good timing nfortunate timing. And I think just

1249
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: over time that the good deer hunters find a way

1250
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 1: to separate themselves in the rest of us. Yeah, what

1251
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate about you is the a your your humility,

1252
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 1: but be the fact that you approach it seems like

1253
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: not only you're writing, but also you're hunting with a

1254
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: journalist sensibility and that you're looking at things objectively. You're

1255
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: going to strong, trustworthy sources and uh and and and

1256
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: not falling for alternative facts, but being able to sort

1257
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: the facts from the b s um. And I think

1258
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 1: that's a strong approach to writing, in a very strong

1259
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: approach to deer hunting. Um and you certainly are doing that.

1260
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: So so answer me this, though you have been in

1261
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: the deer hunting world. Now, for thirty or more years

1262
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: you were editing for Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. You

1263
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: were now freelance writing for all these different outlets. Over

1264
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: the years, what is maybe right now? I'm sure you

1265
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: over the years you've seen a whole lot of new

1266
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: ideas coming and going, different trends rising and falling, different

1267
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: fads getting really popular than dissipating. Um, can you name

1268
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: one of these ideas that you feel like it's really legit?

1269
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: If there's one of these fads or new strategies or

1270
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: products or something that you say, you know what I've

1271
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: seen that backed up enough or enough sources have told me,

1272
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: or my own experience have told me this one is

1273
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: really legit. So one idea or a little gimmick that

1274
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 1: actually is real? And then can you name one that

1275
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: is bogus? Is there's something out there, is there's some fallacy,

1276
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: some myth that you just can't you just you're so

1277
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: sick and tired of people spouting this b yes, and

1278
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: you need to correct it right now. UM, I guess

1279
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 1: the one that I one that I just can't get behind,

1280
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: and I just um, as Steve Ronella would say, if

1281
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: if guy came down with a gun to your head,

1282
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 1: where would you stand on this one? And that that's

1283
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: the moon phase stuff. I just I can't. I can't

1284
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: get into it. I just I've tried many times over

1285
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: the years, through surveys, through um Q and as through

1286
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,600
Speaker 1: interviews and reading as much research as it is on it,

1287
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: and I just always come back to the idea that

1288
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 1: um al whole factor again the Deer and Deer Hunting

1289
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 1: founder when they first looked into the stuff back for

1290
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,799
Speaker 1: their readership surveys back in the eighties, and else conclusion,

1291
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 1: after going through all the different um um um um

1292
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: surveys that he reviewed, it's all a bunch of who wee?

1293
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 1: That was Elice conclusion, all a bunch of WHOI And

1294
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 1: then um when Grant Woods, Grant Woods, I thought was

1295
01:08:56,479 --> 01:09:00,679
Speaker 1: just super cool interview on this article different eater about

1296
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: the newar phases where he thought he had it nailed down.

1297
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: He thought he had it nailed down back in nine

1298
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: and we actually worked together on a project back then

1299
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: for Deer and Deer Hunting where he had this chart

1300
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: and then we were selling it through the magazine. And

1301
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 1: because I had like a seventy percent accuracy on it,

1302
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: and Grant was quite proud of it. He was doing

1303
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,679
Speaker 1: all this, he's actually giving seminars on it and giving

1304
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 1: presentations to the scientific community on it. And he had

1305
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: he had but looked to be really solid information that

1306
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 1: he had figured out um, how to how to link

1307
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: dear activity to the different to the moon's um, different

1308
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: things about how far above the equator it was on

1309
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 1: a certain days, and when it rose, when it sat,

1310
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: all these kind of things. And then he said, but

1311
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: then it all fall apart with the GPS collars. He said,

1312
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: once they put GPS colors on deer and it knew

1313
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: where they were twenty four hours a day, and if

1314
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 1: they're moving, if they're sitting still. He said, my, my

1315
01:09:54,600 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 1: dear activity indexes fell apart. And always that took at

1316
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: the hurt that I'm well, if Grant Woods could go

1317
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: from from this, this point where he thought he was,

1318
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, and he's a pretty smart, um skeptical guy,

1319
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: to you go from um where he thought he has

1320
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 1: something figured out, to where he's now just you know,

1321
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: doesn't he doesn't even considerate he goes hunting. I figured

1322
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm probably more in that camp, you know, where it

1323
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: just seems like it is too hard to get to quantify.

1324
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: But then I get back to um where I think

1325
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: on their hand, I don't discount the idea that if

1326
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: it gives a guy confidence that this that he's got

1327
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: to figure it out, and that keeps him on stand,

1328
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: he puts him out in the woods when other guys

1329
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: might might stay home. I don't know. I have a

1330
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 1: hard time discounting that belief. And you know, I don't

1331
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: think the belief is making a deer move at a

1332
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: certain time, but I do believe it it's helping the

1333
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: guy stay out there. And so that that's where I

1334
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: don't totally just you know, get all judgmental about some

1335
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 1: guy spurred about. I'm not going to argue with them.

1336
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: I figured, well, that thing is that market I gut.

1337
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 1: I'd say, well, and they're a hand and look at that,

1338
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: and then look at what's on his wall and what's

1339
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 1: what he's accomplished as a hunter, And I think, well,

1340
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 1: he's doing something right. So I as figure whatever it

1341
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: might be, that might not be that, that might might

1342
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: not be it, but um, you're doing something right. As

1343
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: far as UM things, I I find UM where it's

1344
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 1: ballad where it has credentials. Um I am. I guess

1345
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: the two things that that I I think. I still

1346
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: think scrape hunting is always worth a shot if you've

1347
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: got some good scrapes that indicative bucks moving through a

1348
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: certain area on a regular basis. I don't know about

1349
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: how well they how often they come by and check

1350
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: the scrape, or off often they happen that walk on

1351
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,759
Speaker 1: the same trail or near the same trail that they rubbed,

1352
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: you know, like um, a nice long rub line along

1353
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 1: some ridge. But there are certain things that I think

1354
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,599
Speaker 1: you can piece together from from from deer sign obvious

1355
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 1: deer sign that's still it's hard to overlook and discount.

1356
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 1: And that's that's where UM like Greg Miller, I think

1357
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: one of his books on I think it was me

1358
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: reb Line Secrets one of those, I think he estimate

1359
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 1: something like only five percent or six percent of his

1360
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: um attempts at at killing killing bucks on a rub

1361
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: line have ever worked out. There's just a very few

1362
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 1: times it works out, he said. Again, it's worked out

1363
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 1: enough times though, to where he keeps trying to piece

1364
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: together and hunt over him. And so you know that

1365
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: that that's UM to me worth worth hanging on too,

1366
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: and we're we're um, but then you have to at

1367
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 1: some point. I remember Greg years ago kind of giving

1368
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 1: up on trying it up north and move in Wisconsin

1369
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: because baiting became so popular. And once you have deer

1370
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: spending outside stimulus and in this case, artificial food sources,

1371
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: while throws off all those natural patterns that um, he

1372
01:12:54,640 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: was used to capitalizing on. Interesting, I think, Um, I

1373
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of what you said rings true

1374
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 1: with me as well. UM, when it comes to things

1375
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 1: like scrapes and rubs and and yeah, none of these

1376
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 1: things are sure fire, guaranteed type setups, but it is something.

1377
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: It is a piece of the puzzle, and it's certainly

1378
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:19,799
Speaker 1: better to be working with a piece of the puzzle

1379
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: versus a blank slate. Um. And I think it can

1380
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,600
Speaker 1: help with that confidence too, And and you make up

1381
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: you make an interesting point that the placebo effect just

1382
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: believing something might help you actually can help you because

1383
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: you're confident, and if you're confident, you're focused, and if

1384
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: you're focused, you're on point, and you take advantage of

1385
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: things when they when these opportunities arise, and um, you

1386
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: can't discount that. So that is a really, really good point, Um,

1387
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 1: and it's interesting to see how that might play out

1388
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 1: in the woods. I think that this is a good

1389
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 1: place for us to wrap it up, Pat, because we'll

1390
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: cover some really helpful kind of I think foundational pieces

1391
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: of knowledge for new hunters, and then even for experienced hunters.

1392
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: I think it's good to go back and look at

1393
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 1: the building blocks and remember what did your do? How

1394
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 1: do they see the world, how do they perceive the world.

1395
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 1: What does that mean for us as hunters? Um? That

1396
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: just can't be hammered into our heads enough, I think. So.

1397
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 1: I appreciate taking the time to share on the things

1398
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: you've learned over the years as you've hunted and learned

1399
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:30,040
Speaker 1: through your own experiences, and then you know learned from

1400
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 1: some one of the people out there. Your your ability

1401
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: to find and interpret things from sources out there, and

1402
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: sharing that for the rest of the world I think

1403
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: is very helpful. And I will say that to the

1404
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: folks listening. Start paying attention to the byeline, and when

1405
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: you see Pat Derek on the byeline of an article,

1406
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 1: you can feel confident this is in a placebo effect.

1407
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 1: You can feel confident that you're about to read a

1408
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: quality piece of work. Um. So, Pat, thank you for

1409
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:56,759
Speaker 1: doing this, and I hope a lot of people will

1410
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: read what you're doing. And I know that I've enjoyed

1411
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 1: everything on the media recently, and I'm really glad that

1412
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: you're helping us out there. Great. Thanks, Mark, I'm flattered. Well.

1413
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: I hope you have a great hunting season this year too. Yeah,

1414
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,599
Speaker 1: when when your first hunt? I leave in like two

1415
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: and a half weeks for early September hunt in North Dakota.

1416
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 1: Very cool. Thank you. Alright, Pat, We're gonna wrap it

1417
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:27,719
Speaker 1: up and that will be a rap for today's episode.

1418
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed this one. I will give you a

1419
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: couple of quick suggestions though, before you go. Number One,

1420
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: if you want to follow along with the hunts that

1421
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 1: I've got coming up, I'm leaving in just a matter

1422
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 1: of weeks for my first hunt and then it will

1423
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: just be chaos from there on out. If you want

1424
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 1: to follow along with everything, I'm up, to make sure

1425
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 1: you are following Wired to Hunt on Instagram. And finally,

1426
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 1: if you've been enjoying this show. I haven't asked for

1427
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: this in a while, but I'll throw it out there.

1428
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,879
Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying the podcast, it would be incredible.

1429
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: If you leave a rating or review over on ito Zone,

1430
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 1: me in the world and it really helps us out.

1431
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 1: So that the way, thank you for listening, thanks for

1432
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: being a part of this community, and until next time,

1433
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 1: stay wired to Home.