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Speaker 1: I just can't escape the thought that you've spent voluntarily

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Speaker 1: decades of your life fighting some of the most hate

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Speaker 1: filled violent groups on the face of the earth, ISIS

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Speaker 1: and al Qaeda, and yet you're getting death threats from

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Speaker 1: supposedly patriotic Americans. It just boggles the fucking mind.

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Speaker 2: Okay, want to be patriots that are driven by wanna

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Speaker 2: be dictators.

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Speaker 3: I'm John Ceipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in

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Speaker 3: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover

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Speaker 3: all around the.

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Speaker 1: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA,

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Speaker 1: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 3: created conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: In our operations. We got people to believe things that

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Speaker 1: weren't true.

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Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 3: news almost every day.

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Speaker 1: Will break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 1: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission Implausible. Hunter Biden was found guilty by

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Speaker 3: Delaware jury for gun charges lately, and we've done a

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Speaker 3: couple episodes on Hunter Biden's laptop, and I was hoping

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Speaker 3: perhaps we could get away from the issue, but the

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Speaker 3: verdict and the news has spun up again. The issue

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Speaker 3: related to Jerry and I and a bunch of former

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Speaker 3: intelligence friends who signed a letter in the lead up

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty election warning about the laptop issue coming

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Speaker 3: out right before the election might have been in October

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Speaker 3: surprise involving Russian intelligence, and so of course is now

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Speaker 3: back in the news. The New York Post has written

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Speaker 3: about it, and Stevid Miller and a number of others

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Speaker 3: are Fox News are commenting saying the Hunter Biden gun

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Speaker 3: charges are quote a giant misdirection, a fig leaf to

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Speaker 3: cover up the real climbs of Joe Biden, and a

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Speaker 3: New York Post has written another story about us, saying

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Speaker 3: that x Intel officers stand by their smear even after

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Speaker 3: the FBI has confirmed the device's authenticity, of course, which

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Speaker 3: had nothing to do with what we said in a letter.

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to imagine the meeting where they're like, all right, guys,

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Speaker 4: we've got a big problem. The president's obviously the leader

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Speaker 4: of a massive criminal enterprise. We don't want people to

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Speaker 4: know about that. I got an idea, Let's get his

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Speaker 4: son convicted of a crime. And have a massive spotlight

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Speaker 4: on his sun and his crimes, because that's the best

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Speaker 4: way to hide bigger crimes, Like just how would that

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Speaker 4: possibly be the conclusion to that meeting. But then there's

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Speaker 4: the U News, which we care about a lot.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't even care that much about that, to

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Speaker 3: be honest with you, either, because it's just a deflection

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Speaker 3: scam game for partisan purposes, and they use our names

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Speaker 3: because it helps them make their case.

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Speaker 4: Because we've talked about this on the show before. But

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Speaker 4: just remind us, like you were two of fifty one

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Speaker 4: former intelligence officers who wrote a letter right before the

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty election. Suddenly it was out that there was

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Speaker 4: this laptop, and.

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Speaker 1: The misdirection comes from what we said and then what

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Speaker 1: they claim we said in the letter. The letter simply

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Speaker 1: says be careful. We know that Russian intelligence officers are involved,

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Speaker 1: named who they are. We named Andre Derkos who was involved.

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Speaker 1: We talked to Lef Parnas, he was involved in going

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Speaker 1: after information on Hunter Biden and on the laptop. And

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Speaker 1: we know that Giuliani had it a year earlier, he

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Speaker 1: had in April nineteen, but he waited just before the

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Speaker 1: election to put this out with all these grand, wild

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Speaker 1: accusations and claims, none of which have been proven to

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Speaker 1: be true yet, and so all we did is just

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Speaker 1: be careful. This is what the Russians do, and Giuliani

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Speaker 1: was working with Russians, and we've seen the FBI has

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Speaker 1: arrested this guy Smirnov, who was also involved in this

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Speaker 1: whole hunter Biden and Broglio. So the issue isn't really

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Speaker 1: whether it the laptop, and there's several of them, but

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Speaker 1: which is authentic. It's just whether it's part of a

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Speaker 1: malign influence campaign. That's really the issue, and to be careful.

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Speaker 3: In the New York Post article, Leon Panetta, the former

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Speaker 3: Secretary of Defense, said, I signed that letter for one reason,

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Speaker 3: which was to make the American people aware that the

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Speaker 3: Russians deliberately were engaged in this information campaign in the

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Speaker 3: United States and trying to impact on our ability to

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Speaker 3: have free and fair election.

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Speaker 4: We happen to know that leon Panetta, like that was

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Speaker 4: the case study where they took They did take real

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Speaker 4: emails from leon panetto But if you actually read Mollor

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Speaker 4: report and Molor indictments, we know the names and the

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Speaker 4: units of the Russian military that did these actions, and

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Speaker 4: so as I read your letter, you're simply saying this

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Speaker 4: is not neutral information.

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Speaker 1: We strongly suspect a foreign government is trying to manipulate

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Speaker 1: with this, and somebody who's the word disinformation that we're

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Speaker 1: disinformation never shows up in the letter. I mean disinformation

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Speaker 1: means people are telling you things that are simply are

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Speaker 1: not true. And there's also just malign influence where they're

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Speaker 1: telling you things that have been curated, things that have

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Speaker 1: been slightly altered, things taken out of context. They can

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Speaker 1: still be like authentic or true, but not correct. A

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Speaker 1: good way of putting this across is if you write

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Speaker 1: to somebody I'd kill for a beer right now, and

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Speaker 1: what they put out is you say I kill, And

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Speaker 1: so did I say I kill? And the answer is yes.

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Speaker 3: But that's part of the game, right. They know what

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Speaker 3: they're doing. This is all deflection, Like they're claiming that

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Speaker 3: this somehow impacted on the election, but well, lots of

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Speaker 3: stuff impact on the election, and those people who complain

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Speaker 3: that we impact on election, we're trying to impact on

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Speaker 3: the election for their own purposes. And here's exactly what

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Speaker 3: the letter said. One part of it, we want to

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Speaker 3: emphasize that we do not know if the emails provided

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Speaker 3: to the New York Posts by President Trump's personal attorney,

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Speaker 3: Rudy Giuliani are genuine or not, and that we do

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Speaker 3: not have evidence of Russian involvement, just that our experience

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Speaker 3: makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a

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Speaker 3: significant role in this case. If we are right, this

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Speaker 3: is Russia trying to influence how Americans vote in this election.

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Speaker 3: And we believe strongly that Americans need to be aware

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Speaker 3: of this.

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Speaker 4: And do you stand by that assessment today?

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Speaker 3: Yes, and evidence has shown that it actually was happening.

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Speaker 3: Rudy Giuliani was running around Ukraine talking to Russian malign actors.

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Speaker 3: They know that the smear is out there, and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who they just want to believe

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Speaker 3: somehow the deep state was involved. In fact, today, as

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Speaker 3: we're talking, Andy Biggs, a Republican representative from Arizona, put

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Speaker 3: a bill in Congress to revoke the security clearances of

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Speaker 3: the fifty one who signed the letter. Jerry and I

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Speaker 3: don't even have security because all the fifty one, all

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Speaker 3: of them were retired. This is sort of a silly game,

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Speaker 3: but it's trying to keep it in the public consciousness.

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Speaker 1: So this is this is where you know, the hyperpartisan journalism.

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Speaker 1: It's not even really journalism. John and I somebody from

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Speaker 1: Fox News reached out and said, do you now want

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Speaker 1: to apologize now that the laptop is shown to be authentic.

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Speaker 1: The answer is complicated, but there is no the laptop.

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Speaker 1: The FBI apparently, when you know, in the court case

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Speaker 1: where Hunter Biden was just found guilty and they didn't

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Speaker 1: take the laptop that Juliani had, that hard drive had

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Speaker 1: been shared and altered and changed, and we don't really

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Speaker 1: understand where it's been. What the FBI used was a

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Speaker 1: different version of it that it got initially, so they

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Speaker 1: didn't actually need his hard drive. Plus you don't really

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Speaker 1: need the hard drive anyway. He wrote in his book,

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Speaker 1: I was high and I applied for a gun.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, when you go back to the laptop issue,

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Speaker 3: we did an episode with Denver Riggleman, a former Republican

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Speaker 3: congressman who worked for the January sixth Committee who now

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Speaker 3: works for Hunter Biden, and he is the only one

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Speaker 3: who has seen all the versions of these various hard

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Speaker 3: drives and laptops and gone through all of it. And

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Speaker 3: he talked about it on our podcast saying essentially, yes,

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Speaker 3: the stuff has been manipulated. It's been in so many

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Speaker 3: hands it's impossible to know where things are. That doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that there's not a lot of actual things in

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Speaker 3: there that make Hunter Biden look like a scumbag. And

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Speaker 3: of course that has nothing to do with what our

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Speaker 3: letter was about.

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Speaker 4: And our Love Parnis episodes really just lay it out.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Love Partners was central to this whole actual conspiracy, and.

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Speaker 3: He was with Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine as they talked

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Speaker 3: about this issue.

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Speaker 1: I did want to touch on prosecutetorial discretion. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think Hunter Biden is guilty these charges. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: clear to me was. But the question is, really would

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Speaker 1: he have been how many other people would he have

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Speaker 1: been prosecuted were he not Hunter Biden? And you could

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Speaker 1: ask the same would Trump have been prosecuted on all

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Speaker 1: these various things were he not Donald Trump? And prosecutorial discussion,

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Speaker 1: I think is a whole different kettle of fish. But

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Speaker 1: it makes a big difference whether you're like a nobody,

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Speaker 1: I mean, who gives a shit about Hunter Biden?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, nobody's voting for him or whether you're the

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Speaker 1: president former president the United States, and you're being charged

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Speaker 1: with manipulating the information around whether or not you should

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Speaker 1: be president and hiding it illegally. There was a Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court case that I actually know about, Wait versus the

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Speaker 1: United States. There was a guy who refused to register

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Speaker 1: for the draft and Adam and John I graduated high

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Speaker 1: school in seventy five, so we didn't have to register

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Speaker 1: for the draft, but everybody else after us did.

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Speaker 3: I was seventy nine. I did have to register.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they've prosecuted apparently just a couple of dozen people,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that millions of people have not registered

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Speaker 1: for the draft, and the Supreme Court ruled that if

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Speaker 1: you broke the law, it doesn't really matter whether they

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Speaker 1: didn't go after other people. So, I mean, Hunter Biden

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Speaker 1: really can't argue that, well, lots of other people have

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Speaker 1: done this and you didn't come after me and nort

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Speaker 1: can Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a break, we'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 4: So you know, we do this show about conspiracies. We're

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Speaker 4: always talking about conspiracies, and there are a group of

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Speaker 4: people who are actively trying to place you two at

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Speaker 4: the center of a conspiracy, because what they're saying is

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Speaker 4: that there's this deep state, whatever that is.

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Speaker 3: I was there's money involved this d thing.

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Speaker 1: To be clear, when I signed the letter, I had

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Speaker 1: no idea that this is going to like this whole

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Speaker 1: kerfuffle would take off. And I don't really mind so

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Speaker 1: much if people are willing to talk about it in

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Speaker 1: a factual way what we actually said in sparking a contract.

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Speaker 1: But what I do mind are the death threats and

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Speaker 1: sort of the violence.

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Speaker 4: Have you had death threats?

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Speaker 1: We've had. There's been death threats, yeah.

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Speaker 3: More against some of the other guys.

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Speaker 1: So, according to Philip Bump, who is a Washington Post

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Speaker 1: columnist has looked at us pretty closely, the FBI case

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Speaker 1: really didn't revolve around whether or not the version that

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Speaker 1: the FBI has of the Hunter Biden laptops. There were

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Speaker 1: three of them. It came out of his iCloud account.

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Speaker 1: It came out of his book, and apparently the FBI

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Speaker 1: had got an early version of the hard drive from

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Speaker 1: the store, and then later the guy that the repair

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Speaker 1: man handed it to Rudy Giuliani, and then it passed

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Speaker 1: through numerous numerous hands until it ended up in the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, so that one can't be used simply because

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Speaker 1: of chain of custody. Nobody really understands what it is.

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Speaker 1: So the FBI did not use the hard drive that

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Speaker 1: the New York Post and Fox News is talking about,

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Speaker 1: using a different hard drive.

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Speaker 3: Essentially, what Philip Bump says in his article in others

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Speaker 3: is there's a lot of stuff in the laptop hard

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Speaker 3: drives whatever that smears Hunter Biden, and we're fine with that.

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Speaker 3: But there's nothing that associates with so far that we're

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Speaker 3: aware of with President Biden. And that's what they're trying.

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Speaker 3: That's what these guys are trying to get. They're trying

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Speaker 3: to get something that hurts the president and the lead

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Speaker 3: up to the election they've been trying to push for

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Speaker 3: the last several years. Biden crime family, Biden crime family,

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Speaker 3: the worst crimes ever. Are going to impeach him. Like

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Speaker 3: Biden has been in the Senate for like fifty years.

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Speaker 3: He's been thought of as like a radically boring guy

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Speaker 3: who just took the train to work all the time

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Speaker 3: and didn't have enough money, you know, like make money

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Speaker 3: like a lot of other senators did. And somehow they

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Speaker 3: decided Okay, well, we're gonna get him on his massive crime

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Speaker 3: He's a massive crime boss. Like, come on, you guys

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Speaker 3: could have come up with something better than that. You

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Speaker 3: could have gone through the stuff he's done for the

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Speaker 3: last fifty years laws he passed and attack those. But

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Speaker 3: instead they just it's almost like they made it up.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say he's a big crime b and then

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Speaker 3: we'll just keep putting it out there until somebody believes

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Speaker 3: it and there's nothing that shows up. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: think they would have found it by now.

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Speaker 1: Jared Kushner's father was a convicted felon, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's fair to like throw that in Kushner's face.

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Speaker 4: I do think I may be the world's leading expert

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Speaker 4: outside of actual participants in the Trump Azerbaijan deal, which

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Speaker 4: you know, I wrote an article about it in Time,

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Speaker 4: Yes in Quneiform, even though Azerbaijan is far outside of

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Speaker 4: the Mesopotamia region where kine form was popular. But it's

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Speaker 4: a highly corrupt I mean, it's not even I don't

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Speaker 4: even think I have to say allegedly because Trump's own

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Speaker 4: lawyer said everything I wrote was true. It was a

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Speaker 4: money laundering operation for Iranian Revolutionary Guard and in that case,

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Speaker 4: Ivanka Trump was the lead executive on the deal within

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Speaker 4: the Trump organization, So in that case she happens to

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Speaker 4: be his daughter, but it is appropriate to convey the

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Speaker 4: fact that Ivanka was an active participant in an actual

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Speaker 4: international criminal operation. We also know that the Manhattan DA

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Speaker 4: this is years ago before Trump went down the Golden

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Speaker 4: staircase and declared his run for presidency, that everyone in

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Speaker 4: the Manhattan Day's Office below the DA Cyrus fance was

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Speaker 4: all convinced that they had a case against Ivanka and

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Speaker 4: Don Junior for a criminal operation. But for reasons that

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Speaker 4: are highly controversial, the DA Cyrus fans chose not to

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Speaker 4: prosecute them at the last minute. So I do think

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Speaker 4: sometimes there are actual crime families, and you know they

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Speaker 4: are crime families because you see them doing things like

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Speaker 4: committing crimes and doing it in conjunction with each other,

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Speaker 4: and there's like evidence and even dare I say prooved,

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Speaker 4: So just to point out what crime families actually look like, So.

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Speaker 1: Let's bring in our colleague and unindicted co conspirator, Doug Wise,

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Speaker 1: who also signed the famous Hunter Biden laptop letter.

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Speaker 3: Today's guest Doug Wise is a former colleague and good

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Speaker 3: friend of both Jerry and I. Doug had a career

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Speaker 3: in Army special operations, to include time in Vietnam after

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Speaker 3: graduating from West Point and then joining the CIA in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty seven, and in fact, his last job in

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Speaker 3: the federal government was he was a deputy director of

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Speaker 3: the Defense Intelligence Agency. Doug was a senior officer in CIA,

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Speaker 3: worked on lots of war zones, and so it's great

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Speaker 3: to have him on.

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Speaker 1: Doug sort of smoke up you. So you're sort of

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Speaker 1: a hero of mine. You saved my ass in Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: when I first showed up in the Hindu cush up

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Speaker 1: in the side of bad and I didn't know which

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Speaker 1: way was up, and you sort of took me by

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Speaker 1: the lapels and off we went into the mountains together

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Speaker 1: for a while. And I want to talk maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit about why you were unable to catch Bin Latten.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the reason why I didn't catch him

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Speaker 2: is he wasn't where I was. It wasn't for lack

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Speaker 2: of trying, you know, as anybody in the ciact business

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Speaker 2: will tell you. While we all sat there and said,

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Speaker 2: what an ex straordinary accomplishment by our targeting and operational colleagues,

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Speaker 2: both at headquarters and in the field, and certainly the

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Speaker 2: courage of our Navy seals. We also have to sit

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Speaker 2: and give some credit to the President of the United States,

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Speaker 2: who you know, his central focus was domestic policy. But

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Speaker 2: I think the intelligence case for beIN laden being Abadabad

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Speaker 2: was not exactly one hundred percent. So you know that

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Speaker 2: was a courageous decision because you can imagine what the

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Speaker 2: impact would have been if it had failed. There'd have

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Speaker 2: been no been laden, if there'd have been dead Navy seals,

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Speaker 2: captured Navy seals, dead Pakistani citizens, innocent lives lost. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: Jerry's right. I mean he and I were out there

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Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere trying to figure out there's

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Speaker 2: been laden there. He could have walked twelve kilometers from

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Speaker 2: Jalalabad into Pakistan as opposed to being up Hindu kush

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Speaker 2: were there eighteen thousand foot mountains, no oxygen, a lot

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Speaker 2: of sheep, and sharing a cave with a grimy ole shepherd.

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Speaker 2: I think being in a villa in Pakistan south of

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Speaker 2: Tora Bora was probably the more likely thing, But anyway,

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Speaker 2: we didn't know and so guys like Jerry and I

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Speaker 2: and others were all over Afghanistan really trying to look.

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Speaker 1: So talking about conspiracy theories. So there was a form

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Speaker 1: President of the United States. He did retweet a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory that Bin Laden was captured and that the Navy

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Speaker 1: seals who were involved in this were killed. First of all,

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Speaker 1: why would a conspiracy theory like that resonate? And that's

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Speaker 1: spin that out? What would that actually take for people

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Speaker 1: who don't understand how the US government works? What would

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Speaker 1: it actually take. What sort of craziness would have to

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Speaker 1: be involved to actually make something like that work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: people have to disassociate their critical thinking skills to even

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Speaker 1: believe that sort of shit.

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Speaker 2: And it plays into the overall psychoses in America all

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Speaker 2: the way from the time of our founding, which is

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Speaker 2: being skeptical of central government. So I think the unnamed

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Speaker 2: individual didn't really believe it. I would he possibly could,

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Speaker 2: given a state of his mental health. But the reality

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Speaker 2: is he had another purpose. He was talking to a

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Speaker 2: very specific audience. But the problem is that this is emotional.

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Speaker 2: Not that everybody who believes conspiracy theories is mentally ill,

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Speaker 2: but there is a psychosis that is at play. There

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Speaker 2: is a disassociation from reality, there is a chaos in

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Speaker 2: their lives, and conspiracy theories allows them to provide an explanation,

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Speaker 2: a rationalization.

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Speaker 3: So there's a difference between the people who believe the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories and the people who use them for personal gain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a cynical exploitation to those people who

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Speaker 2: believe and are not violently disposed. It's clear that there

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Speaker 2: are those that exploit those community, those good people who

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Speaker 2: actually believe in those conspiracies, and they're either one in

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Speaker 2: the way that you described, or two they want to

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Speaker 2: exploit money out of them. They want to use this

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Speaker 2: for financial game.

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Speaker 1: So the tweet that I talked about the core is

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Speaker 1: that a group of Navy seals was murdered by the

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Speaker 1: government and all their families are now clowed into not talking,

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Speaker 1: and now we have a tax on like the Joe

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Speaker 1: Chiefs and used to be. You know, a third rail

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Speaker 1: is that you couldn't attack institutions like the military. These

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Speaker 1: are people who risk their lives to keep us all

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Speaker 1: safe and free, and yet that seems to be going

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Speaker 1: for the first time I can ever remember. By by

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Speaker 1: the wayside, why do you think that is doug, that

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Speaker 1: it's now okay to attack the US military.

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Speaker 2: I just think it's just as it plays well. Right

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Speaker 2: the government, you can't trust them, right. It's a very

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Speaker 2: easy message to disseminate. It's readily consumed by a broad

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Speaker 2: number of people, and so it is now turned into

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Speaker 2: a political tool. You know, you hate the government, the

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Speaker 2: government scrun you vote for me.

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Speaker 1: Which takes us into Hunter Biden's laptop. Many of the

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Speaker 1: people who's who signed on to that letter and people

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Speaker 1: criticizing haven't really read it. But these are people who

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Speaker 1: risked their lives over and over again to keep our

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Speaker 1: democracy safe. And the subtle text to that was really

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Speaker 1: that these people have sold out.

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Speaker 2: But I got death threats, like many people did who

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Speaker 2: were signatory to the Hunter Biden laptop letter. Kind of

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Speaker 2: a funny story is that I'm getting them through dms

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Speaker 2: on Twitter, and as soon as they would come in,

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Speaker 2: I would delete them just so my wife didn't see them.

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Speaker 2: And the one thing that I found unusual was I

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Speaker 2: never got one on email. But what happened was one

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Speaker 2: of them squeaked through and my wife said, hey, did

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Speaker 2: you see that? Horrible because all these death threats aren't. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I disagree with you, right, and we agree to disagree.

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Speaker 2: These are exactly what they're going to do to you

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Speaker 2: and what they're going to do to your family and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. I mean, all these pusilanimous fucks out

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Speaker 2: there on the far right sending these threats anonymously. So

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Speaker 2: what happened is Sindy came to me and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: did you see that death threat? That was horror? And

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Speaker 2: I go, yeah, baby, I've been calling all of those

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Speaker 2: out of all of our communications channels so you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: see them. But it's weird we didn't get me an email.

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Speaker 2: She goes, I've been calling them out.

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Speaker 1: Of the easy.

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't want you to see them. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's all rooted in the cynicism toward federal government,

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Speaker 2: which Trump exploited very well by calling us all members

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Speaker 2: of the deep state. Deep state. I mean that just

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Speaker 2: plays into that psychosis, that the deep rooted psychological belief

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Speaker 2: that government is untrustworthy and dangerous.

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Speaker 1: So you've risked your life many times in exchange you

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Speaker 1: get nothing right, You get the feel that you've the

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Speaker 1: sense that you've served your country, that you've served a

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Speaker 1: higher mission, you've helped democracy, and yet at the end

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Speaker 1: of this at the end of thirty five years, supposedly

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Speaker 1: this letter implies that you took what money or influence.

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Speaker 1: It's like none of us are rich, and yet we

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Speaker 1: have a billionaire talent everybody else that we somehow are

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Speaker 1: deficient in our patriotism and our willingness to serve.

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Speaker 2: I share your feelings of betrayal. You know, after all

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Speaker 2: that all of us on this oh yeah, done, and

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Speaker 2: now to be treated like we're being treated. I suppose

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Speaker 2: I look at it and say, the individuals who are

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Speaker 2: actioning their hatred perhaps maybe don't know any better, and

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Speaker 2: they're being egged on and manipulated by Trump and by

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Speaker 2: the ultra right wing of the Republican Party. Maybe that's

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Speaker 2: my way of rationalizing that these thousand plus people out

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Speaker 2: there that threaten my life and my wife's life, and

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Speaker 2: they just don't know what they're doing. They're just being

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Speaker 2: cynically manipulated. Some of the conspiraciy actually are bringing up

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Speaker 2: Italy Gate was from a CIA officer Doug also worked

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Speaker 2: for knows. Another person who's in the same boat is

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Speaker 2: Mike Flynn. So it's not just nutjobs. Well, they may

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Speaker 2: be nut jobs. It's just those people came from inside

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Speaker 2: the US government and worked in serious and hard places

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Speaker 2: and nonetheless are spouting these type of things. Is because

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Speaker 2: you know, both these people done. Is there anything that

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Speaker 2: you saw as you worked with these people that would

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Speaker 2: have suggested to you that they might go down this road? Well,

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Speaker 2: one no, and the other yes. I suspect that one

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Speaker 2: of the officers who was our CIA collegue, probably within

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Speaker 2: the limitations and the constructs and the behavioral norms that

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Speaker 2: existed inside CIA, I think that individual probably conformed to

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Speaker 2: those kind of norms, and to a degree, I think

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Speaker 2: the second guy, the retired three star, did as well.

437
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 2: I think the individual that we see today is the

438
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 2: individual that always existed. But I think the professional bounds

439
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 2: of norm and expectations and regulatory guided behavior can constrain

440
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 2: that individual. And so, you know, back to Jerry's point,

441
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 2: arrived at this time in American history where one can't

442
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: without existential damage politically, economically, personally, socially reach across the aisle.

443
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 3: Let's take a break.

444
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: We'll be right back and Rebecca, So, in any demographic,

445
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: there's always going to be a scoundrel or two, right,

446
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, an a sociopath, and that's certainly the same

447
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 1: for agency officers. But for both these people that we're discussing,

448
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: they've been on the inside. So the agency officer in question,

449
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: he understands we don't do stuff and couldn't do stuff

450
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: like hijack nonexistent Italian satellites to steal off the internet,

451
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: you know, voting talies from machines that aren't connected to

452
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: the internet. Right, this is so wild and why we

453
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: would do this. So he knows that's not true.

454
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: So for our colleague, is he a believer or is

455
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: he an exploiter?

456
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: Good question?

457
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: In the worst case, all the above, Right, He's unlike

458
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: the unnamed tweeter who clearly is cynically exploiting, knowingly exploiting,

459
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 2: and is not a believer.

460
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: You know. One of the accusations made by the unknown

461
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: tweeter that we're talking about here is that we cynically

462
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: and with mail us a forethought intended to impact on

463
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: the election, which of course was farthest find in my mind,

464
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: except impact on the election in a positive way that

465
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: people should like have the facts before they vote.

466
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to to start to me, I think

467
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: all fifty one have probably different motivations, but anyway, the

468
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: context for me was the disinformation campaign by Progosions internet

469
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: research agency, which he admits to clearly confirmed, clearly identified

470
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: as having an impact on the election. That was my

471
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: context for taking a look at Rudy Giuliani's possession of

472
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: this alleged laptop contents people, whether they pay attention to

473
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: this issue or not, and so everything we knew about

474
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: the Hunter Bye laptop came from Rudy Giuliani. So when

475
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: Michael Morrell reached out to me and said, would you

476
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: be willing to sign this letter? I like you, Jerry.

477
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: I looked at it very carefully. I wouldn't want to

478
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: sign up to something that was declarative at all. My

479
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: objective in signing the letter was to add in my

480
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: credibility to a message that said, let's not rush to judgment,

481
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: Let's take a deep breath, let's wait for the facts.

482
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 2: I mean, this letter was written by a highly experienced

483
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: senior analyst, former presidential daily briefer, Michael Morrell wrote an

484
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: excellent letter, and so for me it was a cautionary letter.

485
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: It was to caution anyone who paid attention that there

486
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: may be more given the context of Russian meddling in

487
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: our election in twenty and fifty in twenty sixteen, none

488
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: of us had ever seen the contents of the laptop,

489
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: and so for me it was not to sit and say,

490
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: all of this laptop is bs. None of it's true,

491
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: The entire laptop is a creation of the Russian Internet

492
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: Research Agency or some element of the Russian government. It

493
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: was to just say, take a deep breath, and let's

494
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: just let the facts come out, which they ultimately did. So. Ultimately,

495
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: I think we all had to agree with the forensic

496
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: analysis that the contents of the laptop turned out to

497
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: be reasonably true. I wasn't worried at all with the

498
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: letter and the fact that the laptop turned out to

499
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: be forensically true, because at that point I said, now

500
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: the Russians have a treasure trove of data and information

501
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: that's been validated allegedly by the forensic analysts, and they

502
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: could exploit that to our disadvantage and to the advantage

503
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: of Russian foreign policy goals.

504
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 3: The Russians used things as benign as Colin Kaepernick, an

505
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: NFL football player, kneeling for the national anthem, or using

506
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: vaccines against US, anything that creates some sort of tension

507
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: or tribalism or anger in our system can be used

508
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: against us. And so whether the laptop contents were true

509
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: or not, it's something that the Russians could take advantage

510
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: of and would.

511
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: Say that the laptop is true or isn't true. That's

512
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: sort of like, what are you talking about? What parts

513
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: of it are true? I think it's also clear that

514
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: parts of it were manipulated, which doesn't mean it was changed.

515
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we do know that before Julia Giuliani had it,

516
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: different files were made on the inside, that parts of

517
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: it were moved around, and who had access to it.

518
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: But the letter made it very clear that we didn't

519
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: talk about disinformation. I don't think anybody was even claiming it.

520
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: The whole thing was completely made up. My line influence

521
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: it was, yeah, it was about whether it was being

522
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: used to influence us unnecessarily.

523
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: You know, the chain of evidence was quite loosey goosey,

524
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: to say the least. As recently as just a few

525
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: days ago, we had several members of Congress that are

526
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: objecting to a body of very experienced advisors for the

527
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: Department of Homeland Security and demanding that they be terminated

528
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: from that advisory role at literally at the cabinet level.

529
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: Why because they signed this letter. And you know that,

530
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the irony here is not lost

531
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: on me that the intent of the Russian malign influence

532
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: is now being attributed to our colleagues.

533
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: So we're still fighting over the whether this is true

534
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 3: or not and what our role was and how it

535
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: plays in politics. And what we should have done is

536
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: we should have jumped in and said absolutely, I influenced

537
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: the election I wanted for the Democrats. And now I

538
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: am a political pundit and you need to come to

539
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: me if you want to win elections in the future,

540
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: and I will throw elections for whoever wants to win

541
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: if you pay me large sums of money.

542
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: And you can imagine that the dudes in Moscow are

543
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: sitting there going, Jesus, I can't believe these guys are

544
00:28:59,480 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: beating us.

545
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: I certain visit a barrel be the face right, yeah.

546
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: And now all of a sudden you have nations that

547
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: are emergent democratic states, you know, looking at maybe America,

548
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: isn't that perfect ideal? And then you have mature democracies

549
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: sitting there going if America can't do this. Maybe it's

550
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: too hard to do this, and Putin's right there to

551
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: sit and say, yeah, you're right.

552
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,239
Speaker 1: But the alternative don't trust your government even though you

553
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: elected them. The alternative to that is an authoritarian government

554
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: that you have no control over. There is a growing

555
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: force on the far right, and not even always on

556
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: the far right, red Caesarism that the United States, in

557
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: order to save itself, needs to have less of a monarch,

558
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: but more than a tyrant right. We need a strong

559
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: man to commit and reassert all those values. A red

560
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Caesar is what we need. And that's just more government.

561
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: That's like bigger government. If you're distrustful a government. It

562
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: just seems to me logically and foolishly that you should

563
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: push for more democracy, right, more people voting, not less.

564
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

565
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: So, Doug, what's been the fallout from you personally for

566
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: signing that letter.

567
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: Well, the fallout for me personally was quite direct. One

568
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: thousand plus death threats of various kinds from various corners,

569
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: all anonymous. Of course, you know, even if the name

570
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: sounds legitimate, it turns out it's not. But still these

571
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: are death threats, these aren't I don't agree with you.

572
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: Threats based on your belief set me you deserve to

573
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 2: die and your family deserves to die. That's just not

574
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: right in America today, but it is very common in

575
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: America today. And I laid the origins of that literally

576
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: at the feet of Donald J. Trump and the Trump

577
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: Inner Circle in the cynical manipulation of American people that

578
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: are ripe for this kind of messaging, and he gives

579
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: them the comfort to action. He hates what they hate,

580
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: and he gives them permission to action that hatred, where

581
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: in years past, you know, wouldn't be able to do it.

582
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 3: I would love to see some of these people actually

583
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 3: come after you, someone who's been in combat, who's actually

584
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 3: been wounded in combat.

585
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, was in a state where I'd like to

586
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: show up in my driveway.

587
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: That would be interesting, I thought. I just can't escape

588
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: the thought that you've spent voluntarily decades of your life,

589
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: decades of your life fighting some of the most hate

590
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: filled violent groups on the face of the earth ISIS

591
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: and al Qaeda, and yet you're getting death threats from

592
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: supposedly patriotic Americans. It just boggles the fucking mind.

593
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, want to be patriots that are driven by want

594
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: to be dictators.

595
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: But Mike Flynn's in the same boat. He was on

596
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 3: that side of the aisle, and now he's pushing these

597
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: kind of violent things.

598
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy.

599
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: So, Doug, knowing what you know now, in a similar situation,

600
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: would you sign the letter again?

601
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would, because the letter is just

602
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: as valid as it was in twenty twenty. Let's wait

603
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: for the facts, let's not rush to judgment, let's not

604
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: overreact when we can react, which is what used to

605
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: be a core value in America, which appears is no

606
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: longer a core value. But the reality is I would

607
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: sign that letter again.

608
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: Mark Milly said, paraphrasing him, but I mean I thought

609
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: it was really powerful. He said that, you know, that

610
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: loyalty to that pledge to the Constitution that we had

611
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: against all enemies foreign and domestic, that opposed the ideals

612
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: in the Constitution, that doesn't end when you retire.

613
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It's true for all of us on

614
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: this podcast to public service.

615
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: Doug, thank you very much, it's been great having It's

616
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: an honor, good friend, and thanks for coming on.

617
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: Well, it's a singular honor for me. It's good to

618
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: see all you guys.

619
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: Well, let's hope to god we never have to talk

620
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 3: about Hunter Biden's laptop again. But if more information comes

621
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: out or it's used in the upcoming election, which is likely,

622
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: we may have to come back to this issue again.

623
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: But for the time being, thank you and tune in

624
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: next time for Mission Implausible.

625
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher,

626
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 5: and Jonathan Sterner.

627
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

628
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable

629
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 5: pictures for iHeartMedia.